Daily Kos

I support the war in Iraq.

Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 11:47:16 PM PDT

Watching Anderson Cooper (as usual) tonight, listening to the generals and troops on the field, and I realized something rather striking.

I support the war in Iraq.

It sounds kind of silly, doesn't it?  I've been opposed to the invasion since the beginning, and have written about my feelings here and elsewhere.  And yet.

Let's face it.  Iraq under Saddam was a s**thole.  Hussein was a brutal tyrant whose sons (heirs to the throne) went around raping and butchering women for fun, and murdering innocents as sport.  On balance, the world is incalcuably better off now that they no longer exist.  

But its more than that.  The idea that Arabs aren't "ready" for Democracy, or that they were "doing fine" under an evil despot, is so inconceivably racist to me that I refuse to believe anyone who claims to be "liberal" or "progressive" could ever support it.  OF COURSE Democratic government is preferable to tyranny -- if you don't believe that, you're not a liberal, you're not a Democrat, you're not a progressive, and you're frankly not a very bright person.  

Issues aren't always black and white.  You can believe, as I do, that the decision to go to war in Iraq was a mistake, and that most major strategic decisions have been bungled.  But you cannot, as progressives, support the absurd notion that the Iraqi people were "better off" under a dictatorship.  No one who cares about the rights of individuals, of women, of gays, or anything else we claim to defend, can claim that Saddam Hussein was preferable to American intervention.  We seem to be caught up in hating everything Bush does, that we lose sight of the degrees of evil facing the world.  Does Bush suck?  Yes, a thousand times yes.  One of the worst Presidents in American history, and I've signed my name to every pro-impeachment signature-collector I've seen thus far.  Is Bush "as evil" as Saddam Hussein?  That's an emphatic HELL THE FUCK NO.  (And to those of you who disagree, for the love of science, are you kidding?  Open a history book.)

So.

The war in Iraq is something I fought against.  It was a war of choice, not necessity.  It distracted from the real war effort against Taliban leaders and Al Qaeda.  But since we're there, I support a goal of victory.  Do you think losing the war in Iraq will "teach Bush a lesson"?  Do you think it will be "just desserts"?  Is that petty reason really enough to wish a country into chaos and collapse?  Is our hate for George Bush so great that we'd sentence hundreds of thousands of innocent lives to torture and death, rather than hope and pray that Bush's plan ends up working after all?

Supporting the War in Iraq doesn't mean you agree with it.  It doesn't mean you would have voted for it.  It doesn't mean you support our President.  Supporting the War in Iraq means that you hope, pray, believe, cross your fingers, and wish with every fiber of your being that we WIN the war, that Iraq becomes stable, and a beacon of Democracy slowly but surely takes hold in the Middle East.  If you hope and pray Iraq gets worse, you are not a Democrat.  You are not a progessive.  You are not a liberal.  And, frankly, you are not particularly human.

Let's work on the task at hand: impeaching Bush and Cheney, and/or at least assuring the Republican nominee loses is an embarassing landslide in 2008.  And yes, let's come up with a plan to get our soldiers out of a country we shouldn't have invaded in the first place.  But let's also remember the principles we're fighting for, too.  And hold out hope that Iraq works after all.  

Tags: Iraq, troll diary (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 120 comments

  •  Just a thought. (n/t) (4+ / 2-)

    •  Yeah me too (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MajorFlaw

      Double Guantanamo and Double Abu Ghraib!

      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

      by Salo on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 12:12:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Here's a thought . . . "catch a clue" (11+ / 0-)

      "An entire credulous nation believed in Santa Claus, but Santa Claus was really the gasman." Gunter Grass

      by rrheard on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 12:36:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I was like you... (13+ / 0-)

      ...for a long time.  I wanted so badly for better military leaders, for better military planning.  

      But, well, the thing I had to realize quite some time ago is that the war is over, we have failed, and there isn't anything we can do about it.  Nothing at all.

      Are we going to try and go after Dawa?  After the Badr Brigades, after al-Sadr?  With what?  How?  Where would we even begin?  We have 180,000 soldiers there, and we can barely hold on without even trying any of those daunting tasks.  Do you understand that the "Anbar awakening" is actually that we are arming and training the Sunni militias to be able to fight against the Shi'ites, as long as they help us get al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia first?

      Victory would be swell.  It will never happen.  I don't want America to fail in Iraq.  But I know that today is as good as it will ever get for the US there, and that tomorrow will be worse, but it will be better than the next day.  That is the future.  The mistake cannot be fixed, and it certainly cannot be fixed with American weapons and lives.  And that is just the way it is.

      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

      by Jay Elias on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 01:02:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My Buddy Noam Chomsky Speeks for My View (7+ / 0-)

        The Question:

        In contrast, what do you think policy should be? Suppose sincere concern for real democracy, sincere concern for populations in need, sincere concern for law and justice were to suddenly gain a hold on decision making, or suppose the will of an antiwar opposition could dictate terms, what should U.S. policymakers be forced to do?

        Noam's response:

        The answer seems to me pretty straightforward. Policy should be that of all aggressors: (1) pay reparations; (2) attend to the will of the victims; (3) hold the guilty parties accountable, in accord with the Nuremberg principles, the UN Charter, and other international instruments, even the US War Crimes Act before it was eviscerated by the Military Commisions Act, one of the most shameful pieces of legislation in American history. There are no mechanical principles in human affairs, but these are sensible guidelines. A more practical proposal is to work to change the domestic society and culture substantially enough so that what should be done can at least become a topic for discussion. That is a large task, not only on this issue, though i think elite opposition is far more ferocious than that of the general public.

        Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. ..John F. Kennedy

        by irishamerican on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 02:46:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I also am recommending this diary (0+ / 0-)

          Because as much as I completely and most strongly disagree with your position, I welcome the debate...It's like wargames for me against the right wing. I think that you should be engaged in hope that you could maybe be convinced to change your views.
          Unfortunately, I believe that your views are more based in emotion than reason, which would make it very hard to appeal to your "Higher Angels" as Lincoln would've said.

          Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. ..John F. Kennedy

          by irishamerican on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 02:53:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  unlike many others here, i won't belittle you (11+ / 0-)

      Your heart is actually in the right place, unlike most in the Administration.

      Unfortunately, you make the mistake of believing that we are fighting a "war" in Iraq; therefore, you make the mistake of believing that there is a military solution to be achieved.  You make the mistake of believing that American troops are capable of curing what ills Iraq.  Neither of these assumptions is correct.

      Withdrawal is not supported here to spite George Bush; the point of withdrawal is to do right by Iraq and by the United States.  There is nothing to be gained by the continued occuption of Iraq by American forces.  As long as we maintain troops in Iraq, the government has no incentive to control the militias and stop the violence.  If the civilian government is literally incapable of doing so, it's not going to become any more capable after 12 more months of American presence.

      The longer we stay in Iraq, the more Americans and Iraqis will die with no progress made.  The sooner we leave, the fewer Americans will die, and the more likely the Iraqis themselves will be to deal with the actual violent criminals there themselves and create a functioning quasi-government.

      It's really that simple  

      Head to Heading Left, BlogTalkRadio's progressive radio site!

      by thereisnospoon on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 01:09:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  tip (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      marykk, Niniane

      for having the wherewithal to discuss what's on your mind.

    •  oh, sure (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      unterhausen, jeffwtux

      Explain "victory" in Iraq without bullshitting or resorting to a parallel universe.

      Yeah, I knew you couldn't.  Neither can anyone else.

      Renewal. Not mere reforms. We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.

      by killjoy on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 02:21:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There is a problem with your logic. (13+ / 0-)

      This is it:

      But you cannot, as progressives, support the absurd notion that the Iraqi people were "better off" under a dictatorship.

      You need to look at the refugee situation, the huge number of people actually voting to leave everything they have; family, jobs, property because their situation is so dire. Prior to our intervention there were no refugee camps in the surrounding countries (some of which have dodgy human rights records of their own), Sweden didn't have to find room for 9,000 Iraqis, etc., etc.
      You may think that Iraqis are better off with Sadaam gone, it is, however, quite clear that the Iraqis themselves (i.e. the people who have to actually live there, rather than assessing an abstract "better" or "worse" from afar) are disagreeing with you in droves.

    •  And we'll bring them democracy (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ichibon, Mr X, sbdenmon

      if we have to kill every damn one of them.  TBI is not something to be left untreated, and I suggest you get yourself checked out.

      Don't confuse this confusion with disorganization, because we're not that organized yet. -5.13/-3.38

      by Grannus on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 02:36:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Tip for honesty and balls (13+ / 0-)

      Because independent voices are always welome.

      But I disagree with you almost 100%.  You offer false choices.  You say yourself that things aren't black and white, then you offer black and white as the only two options.

      The invasion of Iraq did not boil down to a choice between Dictatorship and Democracy.  It was a multi-faceted choice between Dictatorship and Colonialism; Dictatorship and Civil War; Dictatorship and Chaos across the Middle East; Dictatorship and over 600,000 civilian dead.

      Of those, dictatorship was the less ugly.

      It was also never a choice between war and doing nothing.  There were plenty of other ways of putting pressure on the Saddam dictatorship through unilateral and multilateral diplomatic, political, economic and cultural means.

      Finally, this is not a war that is winnable.  This is like treating heart disease by removing the heart and expecting the patient to grow back a new one.

    •  Michael Totten (0+ / 0-)

      is that you?

    •  to answer this question: (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Jackson L Haveck, Virginia mom

      Do you think losing the war in Iraq will "teach Bush a lesson"?  Do you think it will be "just desserts"?

      Please change "will" to "has".
      The 'war' ended when Saddam fled. The occupation has been a complete, untretrievable loss ever since. Loss of lives, loss of hundreds of billions, loss of precious time to spend our considerable might on, say, global warmong, loss of international prestige, loss of moral standing, loss of credibility...
      These things have already happened.
      It is a bullshit frame to even try to hope that things haven't played out yet. Large majorities of Iraqis want us to GTFO now. Slightly smaller majorities say it's ok to kill our troops to make that point.

      That ain't no war. It's a failed occupation.
      Look it up.
      PS: there's only one way to 'win' an occupation - LEAVE.

      On Liberation Day, 1/20/09, Americans will greet us with flowers and candy

      by kamarvt on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 05:30:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Uprated (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Steve Singiser, marykk

      Not that I agree, but the TR was out of line.

      Somebody's grinding an axe...

      I see more "troll sign" from the troll-rater than the diarist.

      Difference of opinion does not a  troll make.

      "The world is a mess, and I just need... to rule it" - Dr. Horrible

      by Niniane on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 05:37:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  In my mind... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ichibon

      ....liberal hawks cause nearly as many problems as neocons. Just because you (the general you) have good intentions doesn't mean you don't have a colonialist mindset. Saddam Hussein was a brutal tyrant, no doubt about it. But that doesn't justify our invasion on moral grounds. If we're interested in getting rid of brutal tyrants, we need to stop funding them and stop punishing their people.

  •  First of all, stop calling it a war. (33+ / 0-)

    Who is the United States at war with in Iraq?

    What does "winning the war" mean to you?  What are the goals, and are they achievable"?

    We can all wish peace, freedom, democracy and prosperity for the Iraqis -- indeed, any decent person does -- WITHOUT supporting any so-called "war" that the United States is taking part in right now.

    Please.  You have to do better than that.   We're well past the simplistic frame you put around it.  It's not 2002 anymore.

    JOHN McCAIN = George W. Bush's 3rd term.

    by chumley on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 11:47:48 PM PDT

  •  I don't think any of us are hoping Iraq fails (18+ / 0-)

    Would I be happy if, for some unknown reason, the sectarian violence ceased and everyone started working together? Hell yes, that would be great. I would much rather things work out than they don't.

    But the reality is that things aren't looking that way. And it's not worth keeping our soldiers as sitting ducks in Iraq to hope that a magical pony (in the form of quick sectarian reconciliation) suddenly arrives.

    It won't happen.

    "The perfect is the enemy of the good." -Voltaire

    by PsiFighter37 on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 11:54:06 PM PDT

  •  Wow.just.wow (26+ / 0-)

    That is exactly the kind of hubris that got us in this shit in the first place.  Chumley is far kinder than I would be.

    Steny Hoyer = a slam dunk argument for term limits

    by jlynne on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 11:54:44 PM PDT

  •  Sweet Jesus (20+ / 0-)

    This is naive nonsense.....where to start?

    How about this, go to bed and forget you wrote this.

    You can't win a war you shouldn't have started in the first place, that has ONLY the arrogant pretension of imposing our government of choice on another country under false pretenses, that only destabilizes the region.

    Win what?  You can't win this, we've irretrievable fucked up the situation and can't make it right.

    "Win the war" yeah right.

    NetrootNews coming soon!

    by ksh01 on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 11:54:56 PM PDT

    •  Or, as Senator Webb said today, (15+ / 0-)

      " We have basically scrambled the egg here."

      We will be lucky if, at the end of the day, we get a brutal Iraqi regime half as anti AQ as Saddam was.  Was it worth it, worth the lives and the life-changing injuries, worth the ungodly amount of money it has and will cost us and worth the loss of our moral highground?  Pfut.

    •  thing is, some of our reps talk like this (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ksh01

      there is a video of Rep Lantos prefacing his remarks to Petraeus with just this meme - I hope you win - right before reaming out the good general.

      An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

      by mightymouse on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 04:32:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  these days it's almost like saying (0+ / 0-)

        gesunheit or have a nice day...no one knows what winning means...it's a pro forma remark.

        Hell, it would be more meaningful if Lantos had said:

        "Welcome, General, I hope the Iraqi government can resolve internal differences and take care of their own country........."       (that we destroyed in the first place, killing thousands of civilians, destroying the infrastructure, attempting to loot all available resources...jeez what's wrong with these people!)

        NetrootNews coming soon!

        by ksh01 on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 07:53:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  not to mention (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ksh01, chumley, khereva, lurks a lot

      it is dishonest to argue the overthrow of Saddam was a good thing when he was overthrown by the very same people who propped him up in the first place.

      Both times, it's cause he was a means to an end. It is utterly dishonest and without any moral compass to rationalize the invasion/occupation without also rationalizing the actions of the kingmakers who installed him (and sold him nerve gas) in the first place.

  •  Joe Klein's alterego? (4+ / 0-)

    Much.

    "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

    by Salo on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 11:56:51 PM PDT

  •  Maybe you were taken in (9+ / 0-)

    by Anderson Cooper's dashing good looks?

    Did you listen to any of the Senate hearings today?

    As they say in school, go with your first instincts, they're usually correct. In this case, they most definitely were.

    Through all your faults and all my complaints, I still love you.

    by jayden on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 11:58:33 PM PDT

  •  Surrender monkey. (4+ / 0-)

    Jeezus h. keerist.
    Get a fucking clue.

    Russ Feingold: cooler than Batman.

    by yojimbo on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 11:58:59 PM PDT

  •  What do we win? (11+ / 0-)

    What principles are we fighting for? Hold out hope for what, magic fairies to come and spread peace dust, and make us all sing a song we turn into a Coke commercial?

  •  If I could be assured... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    chumley, Salo, NogodsnomastersMary

    that the people prosecuting the war were not the Bush administration then I might join you.

    Unfortunately the President is still in charge, we are still being fed a load of bull, and it's very likely Bush is still pursuing the obviously untenable goals of the Neocons.  (i.e. Occupation of Iraq  to project U.S. power in the region.)

    I can't support a war prosecuted by a U.S. administration that has zero credibility.  Bush needs to move to withdraw, or park this as safely as he can and let the next administration fix his fuckups.

    •  I can't support this, period (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Paulie200

      If it was Bill Clinton in charge (or any other Democrat, for that matter), I still wouldn't support the war, even if they were far more competent about it. The reason why is because I believe this war was and is illegal and immoral. We have no right to occupy Iraq, period. And I believe our continued presence there makes things worse, in any case.

  •  The next logical quetions are: (11+ / 0-)

    1. Has the situation gotten any better with our continued presence?
    1. Is our continued presence -- even if conditions have been a long, steady downward spiral -- preventing some even larger catastrophe from taking place?
    1. If our departure is likely to set off a catastrophe, is this catastrophe likely to take place when we leave, no matter when that occurs (10 days, 10 weeks, 10 months, 10 years)?
    1. What time frame for our continued presence is feasible in light of views of the populace of the occupied country and at home?
    1. Is there a possibility that the country would actually function better than it is now if we were no longer in-country?

    There are moe questions to ask, but these are starters based on your premise.

  •  I don't "support" the war in Iraq. (13+ / 0-)

    I don't want to impose my will on another country, even if they do become some beacon for democracy.

    It's not my place.  It's not OUR place to ask thousands of good soldiers and HUNDREDS of thousands of innocent civilians-- many of them children-- to give up their lives for such an careless experiment.

    Especially after we lied our asses off to trick the world into thinking the invasion was justified.

    And then violated, raped, and tortured their sons of daughters in their own prison camps.

    The majority of Iraqis think that our presence has made their security worse.  The majority also thinks attacks against our troops are justified.  The majority of Iraqis also want us to leave.  47% would prefer it happens tomorrow.  Others want the exit to be more orderly, in hopes of less bloodshed.

    I can't blame them.  We owe it to the Iraqis to try and arrange alternative security for them as we back away, our heads hung in shame for the lives lost and pain suffered.

    No, I don't "support" this war slash occupation slash hellhole we've created in Iraq.

    Not one damned bit.

    •  Maybe just DWI? (3+ / 0-)

      Diarying While Ill-informed.

      Russ Feingold: cooler than Batman.

      by yojimbo on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 12:13:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You're right. This is the Troll Diarist who (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MajorFlaw

      gave us this. I'm contemplating altering the tags.

      This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

      by Snud on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 12:17:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Its a sock puppet whose diary was deleted (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MajorFlaw

        and was entitled "We're going to hit Iraq Bigtime" under the username Maccabee.

        Remember this... except substitute "Iran" for "Monaco"... Unless there's some major snark going on and it's too late for my small brain to comprehend:

        I have a friend who is an DCSA on a carrier attack group that is planning and staging a strike group deployment into the Mediterranean Sea. (DCSA: Double-Classified Secret Agent -- she's responsible for the most secretive super-secret missions the Bush administration doesn't want you to know about.) She told me we are going to attack Monaco

        From: http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Just in case there's snark at work (I doubt it) I'll leave tags alone. But someone might want to let a FPer know about this. (I gotta hit the sack)

        The title and above paragraph are verbatim from one titled "We're going to hit Iran Bigtime" (the deleted diary Kos talked about because it made it to the Rec list and was utter bullshit)

        This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

        by Snud on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 12:29:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yes, it's good that Saddam is gone. But... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MajorFlaw, Cali Techie, jayden, LynneK

    ...was it worth 450 billion dollars to remove him?  Was it worth the lives of 3000+ americans?  Of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis?

    The answer, in my eyes, is no.

    I cannot, and will not ever support this war.

    •  Bush's Evil: 150,000 to 600,000 civilian deaths (3+ / 0-)

      in Iraq. 4 Million refugees.  All the result of an unnecessary, stupid war - mishandled even before the invasion began.  That may not be as evil as Saddam but it is getting close.  In my opinion Bush should be charged for war crimes.

      One of the worst Presidents in American history, and I've signed my name to every pro-impeachment signature-collector I've seen thus far.  Is Bush "as evil" as Saddam Hussein?  That's an emphatic HELL THE FUCK NO.  (And to those of you who disagree, for the love of science, are you kidding?  Open a history book.)

      http://thesoapboxroadshow.com

      by ralphdraw4 on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 01:45:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting (9+ / 0-)

    See, the problem I have here has been this constant association between what was and what is (Iraq.) You assert that Iraq was worse off under Saddam. By what account? Certainly, Saddam was no alternative given the atrocities under his power, but how does one reconcile with the fact that  conditions are worse now than before? Did hundreds die every week to suicide bombings? Were there mass graves of dozens over night, shot in the head? Were 50% unemployed and without clean water? If this was the cause of mismanagement, how would one have properly managed to install a democracy, assuming that is the goal now (and I for one do not believe in the "ends justifies the means?") How would one have come to terms that there were collisions within Islam whose catastrophes could be galvanized by a power vacuum? What logic suggests the removal of Saddam would have even conceivably ended in democracy, when democracy inherent requires unity, which was lacking in Iraq long before the 2003 invasion. The divisions between Sunii, Shia, and Kurds go ways back. In the very, very long term, would a democracy be possible? I am not sure, maybe. Nevertheless, I do not believe the reason for going into Iraq was for removing Saddam or installing democracy.

    "To be a poor man is hard, but to be a poor race in a land of dollars is the very bottom of hardships." ~W.E.B. DuBois [-7.12, -5.95] as of 09/2007

    by rovertheoctopus on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 12:08:28 AM PDT

  •  When is it (8+ / 0-)

    the United States' job to police the world and get rid of dictators?

    Saddam tortureed his own population, but why Americans should give up their lives so that Saddam won't torture his own people? Saddam's threat to the US was questionable prior to the war, and now we knew he was not a threat.

    It is not a question whether these people should have democracy or not. Democracy cannot be transplanted from one country to another at gun point. Democracy, like our own, has to come from within and it takes a while to have. British didn't give us democracy, we frought for it ourselves over the course of centuries (down right to things like civil rights). We still are fighting for that today.

    Basically I don't think the Iraq war is winnable to begin with. As much as I don't want more people to die and things go for the worse, I don't think things will get better. Knowing the US made a serious mistake and having to suffer the consequences of losing a war will be a lesson for the entire country (I don't care whether Bush learns from it or not).

    Japan and Germany had to learn the same lesson the hard way too. The question is when will we learn the lesson and when will we change the policy to cut our losses, or pretend that we can keep this going with more losses and face a greater consequences of losing.

  •  I read this (8+ / 0-)

    Supporting the War in Iraq means that you hope, pray, believe, cross your fingers, and wish with every fiber of your being that we WIN the war,

    and thought "I feel that way about a lottery ticket." But I can click my heels together three times and I'm not in Oz either.

    There's this pesky thing called "reality" getting in the way of your "thought process".

    This analogy gets used a lot but I think it's apt: Our presence there is not unlike the cop standing on the front porch of the house of a wife-beater. Sure, he'll quit while the cop's there. But as soon as that cop leaves...

    So how long are you willing to pay with your money, your children's and your children's children for that "cop" to stand there? 'Cause it's going to get expensive. Not to mention the blood of your fellow Americans.

    And if you think you can make people who've been fighting and killing each other for centuries suddenly play patty-cake with us "infidels" then you're just sadly misguided. It's a simpleton's approach, I'm afraid. This isn't a football game.

    Last thought: If you "support" this war perhaps you should enlist. If you can't enlist, perhaps join the Red Cross/Crescent so you can lend a hand from somewhere besides your keyboard in the safety of your home.

    This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

    by Snud on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 12:11:36 AM PDT

  •  The only question I ever have to ask (6+ / 0-)

    Who is our friend and who is our enemy?

    I like to think I'm a fairly smart guy, and I certainly know the Middle East better than most people, but I don't know the answer to this question anymore.

  •  Too many straw men to respond to in this diary. (12+ / 0-)

    I dunno.  Get em all together and start a football team.

  •  Well, sometimes BOTH (16+ / 0-)

    options are a little F'd up...

    .....

    ~A govt lobbied, campaigned and selected by corporation... is good for corporation. Bad for people.~ -8.88 -8.36

    by Orj ozeppi on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 12:40:40 AM PDT

  •  By all means, go enlist then. (11+ / 0-)

    I'm tired of people who claim to support the war but won't get their asses over to the front. You support it...then go fucking fight for your beliefs.

    And by the way, yes, Saddam was a dictator, but it's rather obvious why he had to have a srong hand with the country. Furthermore, at least they had water, electricity, schools, hospitals, roads, and food under Saddam. Oh yeah, and they didn't have to worry they would get killed or tortured just by walking down the street as they do now. Try knowing what the hell you are talking about before you spew out a bunch of crap.

    "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." - Benjamin Franklin

    by WI Dem on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 12:44:19 AM PDT

  •  I think there could be some validity (3+ / 0-)

    to the argument that pulling out would provoke massive genocide.  

    Except the people who would be victims of that genocide are the ones who want us gone the most.  

    People would be a lot more sympathetic to the mission in Iraq if there was some idea of what that mission was.  It makes the arguments for the war in 'Nam look clear cut. The stated reason for the invasion has long been discredited but I still can't figure out what the real reason was.  What we're actually doing on the ground seems to be contrary to the stated goals.  We're not protecting the civilian population and promoting democracy.  

    Cripes, if they would just come out and say that they are seizing oil because there is an impending energy crisis and we need it for the survival of our economy I'd be more sympathetic than I am to layer upon layer of blatant lies.

    If it really is about empire and nothing else then hell yes I hope we lose.  I'm a citizen of the planet first and of the United States second.  I'm not a total pacifist and believe that such a thing as "just war" is possible.  There is no reason to think this is such a thing and every reason to think the contrary.

    ---
    Fight the stupid! Boycott BREAKING diaries!

    by VelvetElvis on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 12:55:06 AM PDT

    •  Didn't you get the memo? (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Orj ozeppi, jeffwtux, sbdenmon, jayden

      We're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here (TM).  Whatever that means.

    •  They have said its about oil (0+ / 0-)

      Olbermann had a segment recently ( a few weeks ago ) highlighting Bush giving a speech about Iraq where he mentioned protecting oil reserves. Cheney has mentioned it as well. It just doesn't get reported by the  COM - Corporate Owned Media.

      The tactic is to throw so many justifications and reasonings out that people become so confused and bewildered that none of them actually stick. So why not throw the truth out there too? Chances are it won't stick either.

      Besides, they're running out of reasons.

      And lastly, for what it is costing us, we could have purchased the oil outright.  

      Through all your faults and all my complaints, I still love you.

      by jayden on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 01:14:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And now for something completely different (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jayden

    I've always wanted to try embedding.  I was just waiting for a waste of space.

    A moment of peace.

    "You never really own anything you can't carry in both arms at a dead run"

    Robert A. Heinlein

    by Boise Lib on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 12:58:19 AM PDT

  •  CNN and Anderson Cooper (0+ / 0-)

    did a real slick propaganda piece again today.

    Keeping em honest Anderson had a few
    choice pieces of footage for America.

    Mostly it was about what good buddies our
    troops are getting to be with the
    Iraqi people -  

    If you believe what you see on CNN - well, of
    course you would support the war. That's the whole
    purpose of the networks today. But that is an
    illusion, the same illusion they have been peddling
    for 5 years.

    There are millions of desperate Iraqi refugees living in Jordon,Syria and Iran. Most Iraqi professionals have
    left the country, Baghdad has
    been ethnically cleansed,tens of thousands of
    Iraqs are in US custody -  do you honestly believe
    that they are all getting that rehabilitation
    treatment you saw on CNN. We don't even treat our
    own prisoners in this country humanely.

    Things have gotten so bad in Iraq that they now
    wish Sadam was back. Kids can't go to school, women
    can't walk down the street, there is no electricity
    or clean water.  It has been going on for 5 years.

    And - the group we put in power is not one bit
    less brutal than Sadam - and they are less tolerant
    and less secular than Sadam was particularly when
    it comes to women's rights.

    CNN made it look like the war was nothing but
    our troops trying to provide humanitarian assistance. But our presence there
    prevents the Iraqis from rebuilding there electric, water and gas infrastructure.
    Whatever we touch is
    going to be a target for the insurgency.

    If we want to provide aide - and we do - we should
    get the guns out and send nothing but aide. Let them
    have their country back. Why is it any business of
    ours how they run their oil industry?  That is
    what our troops are dying for.

  •  Progressives would require shared sacrifice (0+ / 0-)

    As much as I might respect your semantical point.  You never mentioned once in your explanation for capitulation for a call for shared sacrifice.  Anybody who claims to call themselves a progressive would never support any war for any reason that didn't involve shared sacrifice.  We are asking our troops to do extended and multiple tours of duty yet our wealthiest Americans aren't asked to give anything.  Ahhh, but the cons would say "there was no shared sacrifice in Kosovo".  Well, there wasn't much of a sacrifice in Kosovo.  We weren't asking our troops to do multiple and extended tours of duty in the most dangerous territory without the proper gear.  Were they sent overseas into combat?  Sure, but that's what they are trained for, as long as we don't abuse them like we are doing here with no call for shared sacrifice.  Even Joe Lieberman has called for a War Tax, something I agree with.  You don't even mention that, so I can't see your diary as anything but a sellout no different than Congressman Brian Baird.

    •  We actually didn't do much good in Kosovo either (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      metal prophet

      The problems over there had been going on for some time before we got involved.  Our bombing campaign was not very successful.  You can't stop a genocide from an airplane.  We also skipped out on all of the other atrocities that had been going on in the Balkans for many years before that.  

      Unfortunately we probably got the wrong impression from Kosovo, because it seemed easy, even though it was quite ineffective.  It made us believe that we could use our military power for good without much sacrifice on our part.  Then the next time we think it's going to be easy too: Afghanistan, Iraq.  We were dead wrong on both counts.  

      Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

      by Asak on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 03:57:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why don't you ask Iraqis? (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    nota bene, Asak, jeffwtux, chumley, LynneK

    Your unsupported statement:

    No one who cares about the rights of individuals, of women, of gays, or anything else we claim to defend, can claim that Saddam Hussein was preferable to American intervention.

    Many Iraqis interviewed have said, it was better under Saddam. Why? they had clean water in those days.

    Right now, cholera is raging in Northern Iraq.

    3,182 including 9 deaths

    There are 7,000 suspected cases.

    This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

    by Agathena on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 02:19:25 AM PDT

  •  Please notice that this troll was basically (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    rmx2630, newfie

    debunked without being rude or intolerant.  Most of the the posts here were polite logical explanations why progressives could never support his position.  Yet, CONs will say that lib bloggers are intolerant of other views.

  •  Even if one posits that countries should be (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Lynne