Hypocrisy is Not a Crime! (with Poll!) UPDATE: Awesome Photo in Comments!

Have you been following the saga of Larry Craig, the soon-to-be-ex-senator from Idaho who was arrested for disorderly conduct in a men’s room at the Minneapolis–St. Paul International Airport? I’m trying to figure out exactly what it was he did that was illegal.

OK, stay with me...

Here we have a senator who not only voted for a Constitutional ban on same-sex marriage, but also voted against adding sexual orientation to the definition of hate crimes, and voted against prohibiting job discrimination against gays, and yet – he seems to enjoy anonymous gay sex. So, I guess that makes him a hypocrite. I get that.

But the last time I checked, you couldn’t get arrested for being a hypocrite. Hypocrisy aside, I find myself in the unusual position of being somewhat sympathetic of a Republican politician.

While I enjoy a GOP sex scandal as much as the next guy, I have to ask the question - what exactly was the senator’s crime? He was soliciting sex in a public place, specifically, a men’s room. Is there a law against that? He wasn’t engaged in a sexual act, mind you. And, there was no money involved. He was just tapping his foot to see if the guy in the next stall was interested in, you know, some sort of sexual - whatever.  

Hmmmm.

All right, so let’s just say I’m in a public place, say a nightclub, and I meet a lady there and she asks me to come home with her for sex. Could she be charged with a misdemeanor? What if it was a gay bar and, instead of a lady, it was a dude I met on the dance floor? Could he be charged with disorderly conduct if he solicited me for sex?

What if the encounter took place, not on the dance floor, but in the men’s room?

So, Senator Craig is tapping his foot while seated in a stall in the men’s room. Then the undercover officer in the next stall begins to raise and lower his own foot. While I don’t claim to be an expert in anonymous gay sex protocol, it would seem that, at that point, the senator could reasonably assume the person in the next stall would not object to having his foot touched by the senator’s foot. Most likely, had the undercover cop not raised and lowered his own foot in response to the senator's toe tapping, thus giving the green light for further escalation, the senator would not have touched the cop’s foot with his own and would not have started moving his hand along the bottom of the wall between the stalls.

Again, I’m not saying, I’m just saying – where exactly did Senator Craig cross the line?

Maybe it was before he went into the stall, when he was peering, for several minutes, through the crack of the door of the stall where the cop was staked out. That actually does seem a little creepy, now that I think about it. Hell, I don’t even like my wife coming into the bathroom when I’m taking a dump. So, having someone peering through the crack at me while I’m on the toilet – again, that would be creepy.

But, the question here is this – where and when and under what circumstances is it ok to hit on somebody, and when is it not ok? What gets you in trouble and what doesn’t?

•  Agreed. The fact that the Senator could

  get arrested for this is shameful.  

  by masslib on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 07:43:12 PM PDT

•  As far as I'm concerned

  any Rethug who is a hypocrite on sexual moral issues should be charged with a crime.

  Preferably punished by a trip to Gitmo.

  by IhateBush on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 07:46:11 PM PDT

•  Umm...what?

  I don't think anyone is asserting that hypocrisy is a crime.  People are saying the crime was hypocritical.

  I have only the deepest sympathy for dyslexics.  There are places you can go to get help for that.

  As for the crime, I believe he was charged with lewd conduct in public, which in some (but not all places) is a crime.

  by DawnG on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 07:46:13 PM PDT

•  WTF

  SOLICITATION.....look it up.  doesn't matter what orientation you are...do it in public...it's against the law.

  by bluestateonian on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 07:50:26 PM PDT

•  I don't want to get hit on...

  by creepy old Republicans. The public has a right to not have this kind of thing happen to them in a public restroom. The only reason Larry Craig was hitting on guys in a public restroom is because he's too much of a hypocrite to admit even to himself that he's gay and just go to a gay bar to hit on guys. That kind of hypocrisy causes brain damage and makes Republicans take out their self-loathing on other people. That's what Larry Craig was doing on Meet The Press when he was condemning Bill Clinton for lying about sex.

  by Eirik Raude on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 07:53:07 PM PDT

•  The crime was solicitation.

  Which, whether you agree or not, is, in fact, a crime.

  There's a lot of hypocrisy on all sides in this case -- their side and ours.  But there's no question that Craig was engaged in an actual crime, to which he pled guilty, and received a light sentence.

  Or, really, there is a question in my mind.  But it doesn't revolve on whether solicitation for sex in a public bathroom is a crime, but rather he was entrapped -- in the absence of the response from the undercover cop, I question whether the Senator's behavior would actually have risen to the level of solicitation.

  by LarryInNYC on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 07:58:05 PM PDT

  •  What Is Solicitation?

    I'm at a concert. I meet someone. We start making out. I tell her I'm horney and ask her to come home with me.

    What is that?

    by steviemo on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:02:28 PM PDT

    •  I'm not a lawyer. . .

      and not an advocate of anti-solicitation laws in general.  

      But I can pretty much guarantee that if you meet someone in a bathroom in Minnesota and start making out and tell them you're horney and ask them to come home with you -- that's solicitation.

      by LarryInNYC on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:15:54 PM PDT

      •  Is the Keyword here "Bathroom" ? n/t

        by steviemo on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:19:22 PM PDT

        •  Yes.

          At least in part, I believe anti-solicitation laws are site specific.

          by LarryInNYC on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:47:32 PM PDT

      •  Didn't see anything about that.

        Had side of foot touch.  Put hand below the barrier palm up.  (I have a bit of trouble imagining how you put your left hand under the right side of the stall while sitting on the stool -- or why not your right hand).

        I have to admit I would have no idea that someone was soliciting me.  I find it troubling that you can be arrested for using code patterns known only to insiders.

        by william shipley on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:38:48 PM PDT

        •  Err. . .

          I think the point is that being known only to insiders the code patterns clearly indicate intent.

          I don't believe the anti-solicitation laws apply only to unwanted advances -- and that's true of male / female prostitution as well.

          I'm not attempting to defend these laws, only to report what (I believe) they say.

          by LarryInNYC on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:46:59 PM PDT

        •  Think about it...

          Think about why one would use their left hand if the person was sitting to the right of them in order to signal they are looking for activity.  I don't think one could turn their right hand with their palm up to do the same signal.  If Craig WAS picking up a piece of paper as he claimed there would be absolutly no reason (as the cop pointed out) for him to have his palm up and for him to not to have used his right hand.

          I also sit cannot figure out how one could spread there legs out so far as to have their shoes cross under the stall wall next to them accidently without actually taking one's pants off.

          As for the placement of the luggage and the looking into the stalls there are things that Craig probably could have used as a defense which is why I still do not get why he pleads to even a reduced charge weeks later and hides it from everyone.

          by concernednyer2005 on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 10:07:55 AM PDT

    •  It's Legal. We Have Some Expectation of That

      kind of behavior at recreational events and places of casual relaxation.

      Most people don't expect to be hit on in the workplace or in toilets, which can be situations where a recipient could feel imposed upon. That is why it can be a misdemeanor.

      The police didn't go there to catch Craig, they probably had complaints about being hit on from users of the restrooms.

      by Gooserock on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 09:25:35 PM PDT

•  Crime?

  

  Give me a min to find the link.

  by Sam Wise Gingy on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:01:17 PM PDT

  •  ROTFLMFAO ! n/t

    by steviemo on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:03:56 PM PDT

  •  Can't find the link.

    I got this off of a dairy that was posted tonight, but I can't find it.

    Help.

    by Sam Wise Gingy on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:05:58 PM PDT

•  For a more accurate portrayal

  Olbermann

  by Sam Wise Gingy on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:08:44 PM PDT

  •  The Dragnet Reenactment!

    I can never get tired of that one!

    by steviemo on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:13:52 PM PDT

•  While We're All Busy Enjoying the Latest ...

  While we're all busy enjoying the latest GOP sex scandal, it seems Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney are getting ready to...uh...start another war?

  by steviemo on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:17:00 PM PDT

•  Make hay while the sun shines. n/t

  by Sam Wise Gingy on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:35:05 PM PDT

•  He was trolling for sex in a public bathroom

  Obviously, the police consider it enough of a problem to ave undercover cops trying to catch these guys. It's hardly like two consenting adults meeting in a bar. Give me a break. But I guess you wouldn't mind your son going to a public bathroom in an airport and having to meet up with some of these guys, huh?
  And yes, I think if folks don't want to take the bait, they don't have to, or they can just say no.
  But since there are TWO Republican Senators who have been busted for soliciting gay sex in public bathrooms, there must be a problem.
  See, most adults would rather meet folks in bars. it's the twisted, closeted ones that go trolling in publican airport johns, because they're so fucked up that they can't admit who they are. They spend their lives fighting it (being gay)_ because they think there's something wrong with it.
  Sex in an airport toilet is unnatural. Not only that, it's disgusting.
  And while hypocrisy isn't a crime, it shows the kind of people Republicans are. Just come out of the closet already!

  by MA Liberal on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:44:40 PM PDT

  •  So, Purely from a Legal Perspective...

    ...Barroom ok, rest room, not ok?  Does the law make that distinction?

    (Yes - I agree, bathroom kinda creepy!)

    by steviemo on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:50:11 PM PDT

    •  Come on

      The point is public vs. private space.

      What you can do in an air port lavatory is different than what you can do in a private setting.

      You can not troll for sex at an airport in MN.

      If you don't like it, challange the law in court or elect reprensentatives who will change the law.

      Clear?

      by Sam Wise Gingy on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 09:01:34 PM PDT

    •  well

      in the barroom, they're not usually having sex on the barstools.

      bathrooms are also more necessary for some people to visit than bars.  not everyone, but some people.

      by tunesmith on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 09:06:11 PM PDT

    •  There Are Elements of Imposition and Fear

      You're often isolated from other people, you aren't free to get up and leave at some moments, you could easily be trapped where you are.

      I'm a pretty small guy, was often taken for gay by both sides especially as a kid. I have to say only the straights ever treated me roughly.

      On the other hand I never happened to have been hit on by a gay in a restroom. I have been in some other places, and when alone and the guy was big, it was as worrying for me as it would be for many women to be isolated and hit on by a bigger man.

      by Gooserock on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 09:31:23 PM PDT

    •  Children use rest rooms.

      They generally do not patronize bars.

      by Halcyon on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 10:05:24 AM PDT

  •  Not only that

    But they had received complaints that someone was soliciting in that bathroom. That's why the cop went there. The good senator had been there quite a while annoying people.

    by pucklady on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:21:48 AM PDT

    •  Right. And Craig said he was frequently at that

      airport. I mean, is that the only stopover he can make from Idaho to DC? I think not.
      And there is the other Sen (Allen?) who did it in Fla.
      Airport bathrooms seem to be a pick-up place for gays who love the thrill of public sex, and gays who are so closeted that they can't find it anywhere else unless they get outed. Oops!

      by MA Liberal on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 07:55:52 AM PDT

      •  One of Two Possible Stopovers...

        If he is flying Northwest Airlines, he could either go DCA->MSP->BOI or DCA->DTW->BOI.  Minneapolis and Detroit are the hub cities.

        by steviemo on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 01:15:05 PM PDT

•  I'm thinking the problem

  is the implication of sex in the bathroom to follow?  If he had asked the man to go home with him, would that be solicitation?

  by kissydee on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 10:37:14 PM PDT

  •  Probably Not...

    If he simply said to the cop I am interested in you..want to go to a hotel and have sex (with no compenstation agreed upon) he probably would not have been arrested.  The idea that he solicited sex in the men's room and that is where the act would have happened is why he was probably arrested.  

    As for why he had to resign he is either a liar (either he is gay and says he is not--which is a disqualifer for the GOP in Idaho; or he lied in court when he agreed on the plea--which would be even more of a problem) or he is stupid for pleading gulity without the advice of a lawyer and not discussing what happened with his Senate leadership and just trying to hide it.  I think this is why he was really pushed out and Vitter was not as Vitter discussed with the leadership what he should do.  Vitter also was not arrested and I would think that if he had been caught in the act so to speak as Craig was he would have been pushed out as well.

    by concernednyer2005 on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 09:34:31 AM PDT

•  Nuisance laws

  Societies have laws governing behavior in public places. Usually misdemeanors in civilized countries. I don't have a problem with that. The nuisance laws reflect more or less what the public wants.

  by MakeChessNotWar on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 11:08:05 PM PDT