Daily Kos

Yes, Glenn, the principle really does need to be explained

Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:03:38 PM PDT

First, retroactive immunity turns the "rule of law" into an even greater mockery than it has been for the last six years. The central premise in granting immunity is that telecom companies did nothing wrong -- even if they violated the law -- because they cooperated with warrantless spying at the behest of the President.

But we don't actually live in a country where private actors are permitted to commit crimes and violate laws provided that the President tells them that they should. The President has no greater power to authorize others to break the law than he does to break the law himself. Quite the contrary, Article II of the Constitution imposes the opposite obligation: "he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed." Lawbreaking is still illegal even if George Bush says it should be done. Does that principle really need to be explained?*

Yes.

(This has been another edition of Atrios's Easy Answers to Easy Questions.)

We do actually live in a country where people commit crimes and violate laws, and the people whose sworn promise it is to hold them to account do not do so.  The President can and does break the law.  He claimed that power, first secretly and then openly.  No one with the means to do so stopped him, and with that FISA capitulation this August, this Congress proved it never will.

Laws, even the Constitution, mean precisely nothing — nothing — unless individual people uphold them, government officials and regular citizens alike.  When Bush does something "illegal," but the people in the position to enforce the law, as written, promise never to do so... then nothing Bush does is really illegal, is it?  It's like an arcane law against, say, loaning your neghbor your vacuum cleaner.  If people loan vacuum cleaners with abandon and no one enforces the ban, then the law does not consequentially exist.  Bush and Cheney finally proved Nixon right.  Until we prove them wrong, that is.

The Constitution is not in effect.  Bush and Cheney wield nearly absolute, unrestricted, unaccountable power.  They are tyrants, dictators, kings.  Do you doubt that Bush and Cheney are as powerful, even amidst the nation's disgust and the world's loathing, as any earthly king or despot that has come before them?  Right now, all that the text of the Constitution represents is the hope that someday we may uphold the principles behind it and win our freedom.

Mr. Greenwald, perhaps you meant the question rhetorically, and you are someone who is doing one of the best jobs of it.  But yes, we really do need to explain the principle.  How many Americans truly understand the concept of tyranny of the majority, the necessity of "better ten guilty men go free than one innocent man go to jail" in a free society, the virtue of limiting government power, why the different powers are separated among the branches of government, or the reason we bother having a government and laws at all?  The fact that just law, justly enforced, secures our freedom, and unjust law or the absense of law result in its loss?  Why not hand the President (or a General) unaccountable power, and trust that he will do right?  Protecting me is the President's job, no?  C'mon, don't bother me, I've got to make a living here.

These may be truths, but they are not self-evident.  State even the blindingly obvious, because when we don't, it is not.  People are only as free as they make themselves.

* Emphasis mine.

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Tags: democracy, political theory, Rescued (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 25 comments

  •  It has been interesting watching (23+ / 0-)

    the radicalization of even prominent liberal bloggers.  Markos calling for Gonzales's impeachment.  Digby and even the ever-so-moderate Joshua Micah Marshall contemplating impeachment out loud.  Greenwald at YK07 and here saying Dems aren't much better than Republicans when they give the President more unconstitutional power (not to say Dems are no better than Rs in general).  But we are out of time.  We need a lot more "radicals."

    Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

    by Simplify on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:04:23 PM PDT

  •  Well done. (4+ / 0-)

    Bravo.

    If we continue to accumulate only power and not wisdom, we will surely destroy ourselves. -Carl Sagan

    by LightningMan on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:08:32 PM PDT

  •  Maybee the most important constitutional... (4+ / 0-)

    principle is the equal protection standard of the fourth amendment. I would also add that the fourteenth amendment liberty clause that restrains the state may be equally important.

    Honor bound to defend freedom. Freedom is long-standing army regulations.

    by RichardG on Wed Sep 19, 2007 at 11:56:21 PM PDT

  •  The only way to reverse this behavior (14+ / 0-)

    There is only one way I have been able to come up with to reverse this kind of behavior. It won't happen with this admin., but it can be made to happen in the next one. For almost a year now I have trying to motivate people to start asking the Presidential Candidates what I call " The Question ". The question is basicly asking them how they will handle the the question of the laws broken during the current admin. be it War Crimes, Civil Rights violations, Perjury, Illegal Wiretapping, Cronyism, breaking of the Hatch Act, Breaking of the Presidential Records Act, etc, etc, etc, etc.

    I have sworn not to vote for any candidate that won't pledge to have their new Atty. General appoint Special Prosecutors to investigate, and try those found to have broken any law while in office, including but not limited to Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, Yoo, Bybee, Waterboard Willie Haynes, Gen. Petraeous, DNI McConnell, etc, etc.

    It is time we demand from our Candidates their views on what should happen to these people. Klugman on his new blog " The Conscience of a Liberal " in the comment section of his post on Sept 14 had this to say

    Paul Krugman: One of my fears is that we won’t actually get to see the hidden history. I guarantee you that there will be a chorus from the wise men of Washington urging the next president to let bygones be bygones. I hope he or she doesn’t listen: we need some truth and reconciliation.

    The letting of bygones be bygones is what has allowed Bushco get away with everything he has done because history showed him there are no punishments or costs for his actions. Nixon and Agnew walked away, Reagan walked away, Bush 41 walked away, Clinton was punished for a BJ, and now GW seemly will get away with murder literally. When does it stop, or does it ? Until we hold our "Leaders" to the same standards that every other citizen is held to, it won't stop and they will only grow bolder and more dangerous in their actions.

    It will take a real leader to bring this change about. I don't believe Hillary could bring herself to it because her husband was involved in Renditions. Who could blame for that, but still it probably disqualifys her from being able to lead this way. I don't know who could or would do this which is the real problem. Gore has the knowledge has one can tell by listening to his MLK Day speech, but he in not running. Richardson it a diplomat and doesn't have that fire imho. Obama ? Does he hit you as having the balls to take this on ? Dodd has been in the beltway too long I believe. Who does that leave to lead us in the way it would take to straighten this out ?

    Gerald Ford was praised for allowing Nixon to walk away by some when he said we needed to let the country heal instead on jailing Nixon. If Nixon had been held accountable then we would probably not be where we are today.

    If we let this Immunity happen we are just as guilty as those that have stripped away our rights and laws over the last 40 plus yrs. It's time to change course no matter what the cost or we will see my signature quote come true.

    -8.63 -7.28 We all have to be concerned about terrorism, but you will never end terrorism by terrorizing others.~Martin Luther King III

    by OneCrankyDom on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 01:12:40 AM PDT

    •  Very nice comment... nt (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      marina, OneCrankyDom

      -6.5, -7.59. Dump Harry Reid. Put in someone who can rid us of Holy Joe Lieberman.

      by DrWolfy on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 02:35:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's fine, but -- (0+ / 0-)

      When I read this

      I have sworn not to vote for any candidate that won't [fill in the blank]

      I see the ghost of Nader entering the room. You are certainly welcome to take this pure stand but unless you can convince all the other democrats to take it with you (and remember, they have their own [fill in the blank] issues) you are subtracting a democratic vote from the final tally. Some of these issues will get general support ("I have sworn not to vote for any candidate that won't vote to ban execution of first-born sons") but others will require holding your nose because the same candidate may have a better position on something else that you do agree with than anybody else.

      The simple fact is that there is no candidate who is going to be in true 100% agreement with anybody. That's why it's important to size them up for their weaknesses as well as their strengths and decide what you can live with...or, I suppose, decide to sit out the election.

      •  Screw Nader (0+ / 0-)

        As for your point about getting all Dems behind my idea, I'm working on it. You are welcome to join my movement to demand they do as "we the People" want and deserve.

        -8.63 -7.28 We all have to be concerned about terrorism, but you will never end terrorism by terrorizing others.~Martin Luther King III

        by OneCrankyDom on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 10:40:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Sadly (4+ / 0-)

    I doubt any of this will matter to our elected officials.  Telecoms lobbyists will explain how everyone, just everyone understands the need to include add retroactive immunity and it'll get done.  It's a form of argument you might call the Argument from Elite Beltway Consensus.  

  •  your poll would make a lot more sense (5+ / 0-)


    and greatly gain in humor value if you allowed the alternative of "No, I did not read this diary".

    :-D

    Renewal. Not mere reforms. We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.

    by killjoy on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 01:41:38 AM PDT

  •  I think that the contrapositive of ex post facto (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Cathy Willey

    Applies here.  At least that's how I would interpret it.  If you can't make someone's activities in the past illegal, neither should you be able to retroactively legalize them.

    "There he goes again! Who's laughing now, betch?" -- Jimmy Carter

    by slippytoad on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 05:13:46 AM PDT

    •  yes and no (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Cathy Willey, marina, Simplify, ER Doc

      No its face, that seems logical, but what about situations where you have a bad law? Yes, there is always pardon, but should the legislature necessarily have to rely on the executive if a supermajority believe the action shouldn't have been illegal in the first place?

      In the current jurisprudence, which is over 200 years old, ex post facto prohibition doesn't cover this:

      I will state what laws I consider ex post facto laws, within the words and the intent of the prohibition. 1st. Every law that makes an action , done before the passing of the law, and which was innocent when done, criminal; and punishes such action. 2nd. Every law that aggravates a crime, or makes it greater than it was, when committed. 3rd. Every law that changes the punishment, and inflicts a greater punishment, than the law annexed to the crime, when committed. 4th. Every law that alters the legal rules of evidence, and receives less, or different, testimony, than the law required at the time of the commission of the offence, in order to convict the offender.

      Calder v. Bull, 1798.

    •  Would only that were true, in just this case (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Cathy Willey

      Except that it is good for Congress to have the power to undo an unjust law.  Were Congress to pass a law rescinding an unjust law from earlier, you wouldn't want to get prosecuted for things you did before the new law took effect.  Greenwald defines it here.

      The problem is that, beyond not enforcing existing law, Congress insists upon overturning just laws.

      Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

      by Simplify on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 08:50:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bush can give a blanket pardon (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Cathy Willey, Simplify

    if he feels like it. There's no need to give the telecoms or anyone immunity and further jeopardize future jurisprudence.

    Speaking of immunity, I believe the Military Commissions Act--that denies the right of habeas corpus   to Guantanamo prisoners--ironically grants immunity to Bush's torture proxies.

    •  In a just society, (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Cathy Willey, marina

      a blanket pardon would not be legally supportable.  A pardon would be defined as specific to an individual case, and it could only occur post-conviction.  That way the citizens and the Congress can hold the President to account for specific abuses of his official power, should they occur.  The President could promise all the pardons he wants, of course; that's just speech.

      But in our society, you may be right about the blanket pardon.  But also, any claim filed in court today against the telecoms might not be through the judicial process until after Bush leaves office.

      Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

      by Simplify on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 08:15:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Simply & perfectly put Simplify. Thanks ;-)> (0+ / 0-)

    "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And somebody's giving booze to these goddamn things!"-Hunter S. Thompson ;-)>

    by rogerdaddy on Thu Sep 20, 2007 at 08:21:31 PM PDT

Permalink | 25 comments