Daily Kos

The Evil Military Industrial Complex

Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 06:11:56 PM PDT

Yes, that was sarcasm. First let me begin by saying this website has been a pleasure. I became a member as a result of the "Cobert Bump". Occasionally I'll throw in a post asking people to back off of Hillary, or giving Obama the "ataboy!" (he's my choice for President).

But I primarily post in military related forums for a couple of reasons. First, it's an area of great interest to me for obvious reasons. Second, because I think a select few members of my party have a negative view of the armed forces. Unfortunately, it's those few who conservative news networks focus on. For that reason, I believe they hurt the Democratic party overall. The vast majority of Americans respect and are appreciative of our men and women who serve.

I'm a liberal democrat who happens to be actively serving in the US Army. For that reason I have to be careful about how I word things, and always remember that my opinions are mine alone.

I'm afraid I'm not very internet savvy, and I'm brand new with diaries. So forgive me if It's rather plain.

I would like to discuss the misuse of the phrase "Military Industrial Complex". Without getting into the history of the phrase, allow me to post its most infamous use in its context.

Dwight D. Eisenhower:

A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.

In a nutshell I think it's clear that Eisenhower was not against the marrying of the military with private industry. In fact, it's quite the opposite. He recognized its necessity, as should any clear thinking individual. I think his message was easily summed up by Uncle Ben from Spiderman, "with great power comes great responsibility".

I'm finding too many posters who can't simply say, "the military". Instead they have to say "military industrial complex", which, actually requires more typing. In my opinion most of that is for no other reason than to trivialize the military, or somehow insert the word "military" into negative context.

Like it or not, every military in the world relies on private industry and has since recorded history. This is especially true in the modern age. If you have an ax to grind with specific companies or politicians who you feel are profiteering from unethical means... knock yourself out.

There are other rants that I have, like some of you being paranoid that Boot Camp is becoming Jesus Camp. But I'll save those for another day.

Tags: Military, Troops, MIC, Military Industrial Complex, War, Iraq (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 140 comments

  •  So true: Who will keep us SAFE? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    moiv, Simplify, theyrereal

    Obviously, when General Eisenhower used the term "Military-Industrial Complex" and warned against the unprecedented entrenchment of "standing armies" (as Washington, Jefferson, and especially Madison warned about), well, you're right, Eisenhower wasn't REALLY talking about a "Military-Industrial Complex" or about the unprecedented entrenchment of "standing armies."

    Anyone who thinks so is TINFOIL.

    •  I never said (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      captainlaser, MyOwnClone

      He wasn't talking about the MIC. I said he recognized its necessity, and the necessity of having a strong national defense.

      •  loved your pre-emptive use of the term "paranoid" (4+ / 0-)

        to shut down any opposition to your opinion.

        Straight out of the playbook.

        •  Yes, it's on page 3 paragraph 4 (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          MyOwnClone

          You got my number. I have preplanned tactics I use to shut down decenting opinions.

          In my opinion, from 3 1/2 years experience in the active Army and 6 years in the UMSCR... our troops becoming Jesus freaks IS ridiculous paranoia.

          I did state "in my opinion" if that's more palatable to you.

          •   Force Ministries site (0+ / 0-)

            seems a bit over the top, who are these guys?

            http://www.forceministries.com/

            Howe many others are there running around loose?

            Think Tank. "A place where people are paid to think by the makers of tanks" Naomi Klein.

            by ohcanada on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 08:35:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Never heard of them (0+ / 0-)

              But judging by their website they're a private organization that advocates their religious beliefs, and they focus on military and law enforcement.

              It's privately owned so I have no problem with it. But the fact that I've never heard of them should tell you something.

              •  The Board of Directors (0+ / 0-)

                http://www.forceministries.com/... has this gentleman currently serving in a marketing capacity with the US navy, I am surprised that you think it unimportant, I think it's rather insidious that he can do this while serving the US people.

                Captain W. Jeffrey Alderson, U.S. Navy
                Director, U.S. Pacific Command Public Affairs

                Think Tank. "A place where people are paid to think by the makers of tanks" Naomi Klein.

                by ohcanada on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 09:54:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So clarify this (0+ / 0-)

                  You don't think an active duty member should be allowed to belong to a religious organization?

                  You don't know how bad I wish this wasn't an online things sometimes. I would LOVE to be able to take you to ANY military base of your choosing, and we'll walk up to hundreds of random servicemen. I'm willing to bet we won't find one single person who has felt pressured toward any particular religion.

                  •  "Not belong to" defined (0+ / 0-)

                    He can go to any church he chooses on his own time, it is not the role of the taxpayer to fund his prosyltizing. If he wants to go fishing for souls to convert he should avoid using his public profile to sell himself and his organisation. I get the definite impression this is marketing to soldiers etc.. too much rah rah for little old ladies.

                    Secondly, a great deal of reading has me understanding there were definitely issues surrounding religion at the USAF Academy in Colorado. Can we agree on that?

                    Think Tank. "A place where people are paid to think by the makers of tanks" Naomi Klein.

                    by ohcanada on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 12:23:35 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  How exactly (0+ / 0-)

                      Seriously you assume too much, as do many people unfortunately. What evidence do you have that he's using tax payer dollars for his involvement in the private, religious organization? The only thing you have showed me is that A: he's in the Navy. And B: He's a key person in a religious organization.

                      He's probably a great guy and a fine officer, as I have no reason to believe otherwise.

                      On the Air Force Academy issue, I haven't read or heard about any issues. The only thing I can judge is 9 1/2 years of military experience in two different branches. Most Soldiers and Marines I've worked with aren't even religious in the conventional sense. The ones that are have always been due to their upbringing.

                      If you ever worked with or around military personnel for any length of time you'd realize this is a non-issue.

                      •  Nice to hear that its a non issue (0+ / 0-)

                        reassuring in fact.

                        I don't think you responded to the fragging threat, what exactly is driving that if it isn't religion.

                        Thanks for your patience.

                        Think Tank. "A place where people are paid to think by the makers of tanks" Naomi Klein.

                        by ohcanada on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 03:15:39 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  IMO it's a BS story (0+ / 0-)

                          I was actually posting in a diary talking about that supposed threat. Even the original source of that story said they have not yet substantiated the claim.

                          The person in question is SPC Jeremy Hall. I asked for a middle name so I can email him.

                          I'm willing to bet you accepted it as fact with no proof, right?

                          •  For your edification (0+ / 0-)

                            http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom....

                            I guess we will see soon enough, freedom of and from religion matters to some. If SPC Hall actually contacted them maybe there is something to it. I was not aware of the website before. Kos is a good site for policing out lies simply by way of the recommends and troll buttons.

                            Think Tank. "A place where people are paid to think by the makers of tanks" Naomi Klein.

                            by ohcanada on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 08:40:46 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  From what I've seen about Troll buttons... (0+ / 0-)

                              If someone has an unpopular opinion, others are free to make outrageous insults to the individual. But when that person responds in kind some TU comes along and says, "troll!"

                              It happened to me and I've seen it happen to another guy. Frankly, I don't care about being "troll rated".

                              Just by everything I have known and experienced makes me question this story as it is written. Of course, our military is 2.3 million strong and has existed for over 232 years. By laws of numbers there's going to be anomalies and happenings that are NOT representative of what is normal or acceptable.

                              Again, from 9 1/2 years of total military experience in two different branches, I am absolutely confident that "forced religion" isn't a problem. And I said before my own experience makes me question the validity of this story. And as I said in another thread every soldier is entitled to file a complaint with their IG (Inspector General), either anonymously or otherwise. IG responds fairly aggressively to even small complaints. They would be all over something of this magnitude.

                              If you could find out SPC Hall's middle name, I will email him personally.

  •  MIC vs military. (13+ / 0-)

    My problem is not with the military.  It is in fact with the totality of the military industrial complex.  Big ticket military items like the F-22, F-117 and tens of thousands of nuclear missiles are built, maintained, and paid for out of tax dollars with strikingly little feedback, accountability, and only sometimes with any attention to fitness for purpose.

    The military alone cannot drive these events.  Nor do I believe that they honestly want[ed] to.  A solid, objective look at America's military needs would produce vastly different results.

    -7.75 -4.67

    "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

    by Odysseus on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 06:27:05 PM PDT

    •  What kind of feedback are you looking for? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MyOwnClone, HAL 9000

      Those big ticket items are not purchased by the military without the approval of the elected representatives.

      And I certainly don't want individual funding broken down into a vote. Joe Beermug definitely has no place voting on a new plane, tank, or otherwise.

      We rank #46 in the world in military spending per GDP.

      BTW, I'm not saying individual gripes aren't well thought. My beef is with people who use the phrase for the reasons stated above.

      •  WTF (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        stevej, SheriffBart, judasdisney

        Joe Beermug pays for that Osprey!  Government for the people, of the people, by the people and all that drivel.  That little thingy you swore to uphold, I think it's called...let me think, OH, THE CONSTITUTION!

        Female bodybuilders; high performance, not high maintenance.

        by Strawberrybitch on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 06:37:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Screw military spending as a % of GDP (8+ / 0-)

        The United States military spending is almost equal to the the rest of the world's combined. It would be much wiser to spend it on education, research (science, energy, health), etc. If you haven't done so already, I suggest you read Major General Smedley Butler's  War is a Racket

        SGT Leimbach, Kurt D.
        82nd Airborne Division 1981-85

      •  Military spending per GDP is a straw man (3+ / 0-)

        The fact is that in 2007 the U.S. military budget comes close to, if not exceeds, spending at R.O.W. - more than the rest of the world combined. If my memory serves me, this landmark was originally forecast in Jane's Defense Weekly in the fall of 2006, but became fodder for regional newspapers like the Deseret News early last winter.

        As the seventh richest country on the globe and third most populous, the nation evidently doesn't need to spend at a greater rate than #46 per capita - Link Please! - to spend more than R.O.W., and considering what we are getting for our money, and the report card issued by the American Society of Civil Engineers averaging a D for infrastructure for more than twenty years - it's too damn much!

        You may have a firm grasp of the obvious when you say private firms and banks have provisioned the military since time immemorial, but you in no way address what an obscene level of military spending has done to this nation, nor for that matter to R.O.W. Nor have you addressed the interests of the elected representatives, and their cronies, in the 'complex' who so benefit from this spending.

        If it is your opinion that spending at the current rate is sustainable, right and just, and that many elected representatives are not lining their pockets and those of their friends with the profts of war, then just say so.  You won't be the first U.S. soldier with whom I disagree.

      •  Excuse me but this little factoid (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        moiv, Strawberrybitch, theyrereal

        is rank horseshit:

        We rank #46 in the world in military spending per GDP.

        Why? Because it's not per capita. We ALL pay the piper. But GDP #s are gross over estimations that don't measure wealth but ecnomic activity. The GDP of a country is defined as the market value of all final goods and services produced within a country in a given period of time. Hurricane Katrina can actually increase the GDP by forcing us to build a few hundred thousand trailers, but that doesn't make us 'wealthier' does it?

        Here's a page where we're at # 3 per capita which is the figure that makes sense.

        The only countries beating us?

        Israel which has essential been at war on and off with its Arabs neighbors and an occupied Palestinian territory for the last 40 years or so.

        And Singapore, which only has the world's second largest army breathing down it's neck.

        http://www.nationmaster.com/...

        That works out to $935.64 per person by the way.

        Hey, paratrooper, I always have a spare one thousand for my buddies in green to kill some ugly Iraqis, eh? 'Cause it's soooooooooo fucking necessary.

        Military industrial complex IS the problem. You're just a fucking symptom.

        •  Excellent Rebuttal! (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Brandon Friedman, MyOwnClone

          And no that wasn't sarcasm. With all the childish bashing going on, at least you provided some valid points.

          Look, go back and read the point of my diary. I'm not arguing one way or another about total spending. I'm most definitely not defending individual private contractors. In fact, I clearly stated, "If you have an ax to grind with specific companies or politicians who you feel are profiteering from unethical means... knock yourself out."

          But you did make my point with your last sentence. Referring to someone as a "fucking symptom" of something you consider evil simply because they choose to serve in the military.

          Anti-military rhetoric like that DOES hurt the political party IMO for the reasons I already stated. You're so far left you don't even agree with your own party. Nancy Pelosi herself even says she wants to "Improve our military readiness by rebuilding a 21st century force capable of projecting power and our ideals to protect our country and our interests." You will find similar, or other statements you don't like from every major Democratic front runner.

          •  Okay, you'll have to excuse my burst of anger (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Strawberrybitch

            but here are some facts for you, for the record.

            I was once just like you. Point of fact, I've served in the USMC, underwent all the fun of boot camp at Parris Island and was offered OCS training after testing but turned it down because I thought the mindset was borderline offensive in its knee jerk deference to hierarchical group think.

            Nancy Pelosi is hardly 'my party'. And sadly, too, the Democrats are nearly as impotent in the face of the religion of militaristism as you are.

            But it's not a religion, as you probably well know. It's a sickness, that doesn't even bother to offer the cotton candy illusion of turning the other cheek, only dedication unto death for the group, with that touch of loyalty thrown in (esprit de corps!) to make everyone feel smarmy about it.

            And yes, I still think you are a symptom, dude.

            •  I doubt you were like me (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              MyOwnClone

              First of all we all know war is bad. Killing is bad, suffering, etc.

              But let's be real. Mankind has waged war since as far back as history can trace. If everyone on the planet decided to hold hands, smoke weed and sing kumbaya that would be great.

              Let's set aside differences over how much, how big, etc. Do you not agree that we HAVE to have a military?

              And the fact of the matter is a military's job is an ugly one. And you have to have a warrior spirit. You had it, I have it, but that does not have to remove compassion. In one regard meet a lot of the alpha-male, negative stereotypes about Army/Marine grunts. On the other hand I can't stand to see an animal suffer, let alone an innocent person.

              •  Compassion has a context (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                SheriffBart

                and unfortunately conflict and war create one of the most beautiful containers for compassion to occur.

                Read Christopher Hedge's  War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning.

                And get back to me.

                Seriously.

                War is insane, and you sound like you're a better man than that.

                And, finally, in answer to your question, no I don't think our HUGE military is necessary at all. Especially in the US, where the National Guard and Coast Guard could have taken care of all the defensive needs we've actually had since the war of 1812.

              •  Keep reading, keep writing. (0+ / 0-)

                And the fact of the matter is a military's job is an ugly one. And you have to have a warrior spirit. You had it, I have it, but that does not have to remove compassion. In one regard meet a lot of the alpha-male, negative stereotypes about Army/Marine grunts. On the other hand I can't stand to see an animal suffer, let alone an innocent person.

                Those stereotypes aren't always negative.

                On a side note, and this may be a diary of my own, but why don't we put the Iraqi army/security force/whatever-we're-calling-them-this-week through boot camp. Everyone that I've known who's gone through boot camp comes out a soldier. You live and die with your squad. Religion be damned, Color, who cares? He's your buddy, your life depends on him and vice-versa! We've been in Iraq for years! We could have had three armies by now, with special squads in training.

                I ask this here because you're an advocate. Would this not work? and if it would, why are we not building boot camps, separating recruits from their toxic neighborhoods and training them up in Iraq?

                There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. -8.25, -6.21

                by Jacques on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 09:36:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Good first diary, keep 'em coming. (n/t) (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MyOwnClone

    I long for the good old days where church was the place where we sang hymns and slept. (After Paula Poundstone)

    by captainlaser on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 06:30:30 PM PDT

  •  Government must guard against. (6+ / 0-)

    In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex.

    He was cautioning against the MIC paying-off people in our government. That may be the lobbying types, campaign donations, and high-paying post-gov't jobs these days.

    -- We are just regular people informed on issues

    by mike101 on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 06:37:34 PM PDT

    •  And I completely agree (7+ / 0-)

      Not only from the defense industry, but from all industry I think lobby power is a serious problem.

    •  Yup. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DelicateMonster, Strawberrybitch

      After all, the average soldier gets paid a pittance in comparison to the amount that flows into the businesses whose whole raison d'etre is to provide equipment for the military.  Imagine how difficult it is for a little start up firm with sound ideas and great products to break into the field.  The whole MIC is pretty much anti-competitive.  Those that are sucking away at the MIC teat will do what it takes to keep competitors at bay.  Bribe Senators?  Keep products from being tested?

      Is there any wonder that there are some ridiculous number of fraud investigations doing on at the DOD right now?  And what about the brave major, his lovely wife and their offshore bank accounts.  I'm still waiting for the details of that story to be made public.  

      Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

      by Fabian on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 06:46:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Many good points (0+ / 0-)

        Especially about big businesses doing whatever it takes to keep a profit.

        BUT, the defense industry is not alone in some of the things you say. Larger corporations have more resources for expensive endeavors. Can you imagine just the product development cost of a modern day fighter jet? Now factor in total cost. There's no way a small company with brilliant minds can compete.

        Even without using shadey means the larger company still has a decided advantage.

  •  MIC and military are not the same thing (6+ / 0-)

    Those who profit off the mass production of WMD and the proliferation of unecessary wars for only one reason :financial gain, represent the military industrial complex. (See: Haliburton).

    Our military, on the otherhand, is intended to defend and protect this country and its citizens in time of peace, war, invasion, or attack.

    I have deep respect for our military and those who serve in it, regardless of whether the wars they are sent to fight are legitimate or just.

    I despise the MIC because they seek only to profit off of death, destruction, and misery.

    From where I sit, there is a BIG difference between the two.

    •  Thank you! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MyOwnClone

      You get it. Now tell that the next time somebody uses those terms interchangeably.

      •  Wrong, pathetically, blindly wrong (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        moiv

        You could never have a Military Industrial Congressional complex without the collusion of all three--and yes, that includes the military.

        And,in point of fact, the military is the source of the problem precisely because of it's top down, non-democratic nature.

        Whistle blowers are treated harshly when they're not simply court martialed or conviently decide to die in combat or commit suicide.

        We only heard about Abu Ghraib because some moron decided to take photos and pass them around on CD--how pathetically open is that? Tillman and Lynch got some nominal kind of hearing because it was so high profile. But what about the literally thousands and thousands of other incidents? Haditha? Not much. Anything else on the horizon?

        Oh, that's right. There is nothing else on the horizon, right? We're perfect in this middle of the bloodiest fucking occupation of the 21st century. Nothing but the seductive sound of cricketts.

        The military is the virus in the disease of the military industrial complex, of which you, USArmyParatrooper, are still merely a symptom.

  •  The Military and Military-Industrial Complex (7+ / 0-)

    are NOT the same.

    Chalmers Johnson reminds us that the Military-Industrial complex was originally called by Eisenhower the 'Military-Industrial-*Congressional*' complex; he was asked by Congress to change his wording and caved, apparently. This anecdote is telling, because we can see what Eisenhower might have meant by looking at the ways in which the MIC can use democracy against itself, as it were:

    The industry's success in passing legislation is due, in large part, to one idea that is repeated over and over again: that arms production is a critical job catalyst. By pushing this notion, they effectively discourage any Congressmen from voting against any proposed arms deals. In his email, Matt explained further:

           The defense industry devised a brilliant scheme some time ago where large pieces of military hardware, usually aircraft (the B-52 bomber for sure), are actually manufactured in several different states simultaneously. For "states" you can just as easily say: Congressional districts.

    Congress, he went on, is therefore often "reluctant to scrap arms projects or agreements once they have been set in motion because it is a quick way to lose support from large, key constituencies. Nobody likes to be the one slashing jobs." As Matt points out, the American arms industry has done its job well. (When it comes to this latest Middle Eastern arms deal, for example, it is likely to sail through Congress with only minimal opposition.)

    Interestingly, the argument that arms sales are a vital way to create American jobs is actually somewhat misleading. Although Matt is right, of course, that arms sales can create industry jobs, many Congressmen seem blind to the fact that this isn't the only way to support their state's economy. It's a sign of the arms industry's influence that we so rarely have heard the following: investing the same amount of money in other, more peaceful industries can create a similar -- if not more substantial -- boost in jobs, as the Federation of American Scientists has pointed out. Nonetheless, Congress is stuck on the belief that to build up the economy, they must give work to the arms industry. [Link]

    It's worth mentioning that the arms industry is one of the few remaining homegrown industries left in America, and I doubt that this is coincidence. But coincidence or not, we cannot ignore two factors:

    1. The revolving-door between the Military and the so-called Defense Industry.
    1. We ship dollars to the Middle East in exchange for oil, and we want those dollars back. The Saudis are happy to invest their money back in the US, but they also want the AWACS.

    I could say more, but really I think the point is made incredibly effectively by a documentary entitled Why We Fight. (Link to full documentary(pt 1/4); trailer below).

  •  I beg to differ (10+ / 0-)

    I read Ike saying "military-industrial complex" generally but with quite a specific meaning. He does not speak of particular companies or individuals. What he is warming about in a pretty obvious way is an ideological/economic enemy that he had just defeated, called by its other name "fascism." While "fascism" is difficult to define definitely, it is generally understood to be a cabal of government, industry and military. "Industry" is not limited to arms suppliers, but includes other vital industries, especially energy. It also includes the overall economic might of the country, which is as important ingredient of political power as the military itself.

    What Ike was saying was that we have to guard against liberal democracy in the US devolving into neo-imperialism and neo-colonialism. The purpose of the military is national security, not a protection service for US business and a projection of US hegemony, as it has become.

    Granting hypothetically that there was justification in attacking Iraq (which I don't think can be defended realistically), after Saddam's regime was overthrown and no WMD found, what is the possible justification for the US prolonging its stay. The administration has shifted the explanation on this more than once, and lied on a number of occasions to justify bogus reasons.

    Everyone knows what Allen Greenspan just surfaced, that the unspoken reason is US dominance of ME oil reserves, which will require a signing of the oil sharing law that the US wrote and permanent US presence to guard its booty. The US also requires a base in the ME to insure dominance of the region, now that it has been deprived of its Saudi bases.

    The neocon strategy of global hegemony after the collapse of the Soviet Union, leaving the US as the sole superpower, is well known and publicly stated. In their view, the US made a grave mistake after WWII in allowing the Soviets and China to rise to power. Now that the US is the sole superpower, the objective is maintain that position by preventing anyone from challenging the US militarily or economically. This requires the projection of combined economic and military power well beyond the requirements for self-defense.

    As a result, the US is tending toward becoming an empire, and the "unity executive" doctrine is a blatant move toward making the president the new Caesar of the new American empire, set in place by dollar hegemony and enforced by military means as perceived to be necessary.

    The current rationale set forth by Gen Betray-us is just anotehrlink in the chain of lies, along with the unfolding rationale for the coming bombardment of Iran back to the stone age, to show force and teach others a lesson, in case they didn't learn it from Afghanistan and Iraq -- fool with the US and we will destroy you.

    As similar process is unfolding domestically as the so-called war on terror is being used to cancel the Bill of Rights and turn the US into a police state.

    Etc., etc, etc.

    We should be listening to Ike and breaking up this unholy alliance, restoring liberal democracy, ending economic neo-liberalism and returning the military to its chief function, defense against real (rather than perceived for manufactured) threats to national security, within constitutional bounds and with Congressional oversight.

    Live unity, celebrate diversity.

    by tjfxh on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 07:10:42 PM PDT

  •  We cannot have war or this planet will not be (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Strawberrybitch, dantyrant

    habitable

    I am way to the left of any Democrat on this.  We do not need a military.  No country will invade the USA.  The whole military is one gargantuan waste of resources.  We should be spending the money we are currently wasting on the military to save the planet.

    Let's just assume for the sake of argument that the USA is in some danger of being invaded.  Any war that would follow from such invasion would be a complete disaster for the planet.  Our military is making us safer with a vest of bombs.  If we have to use the military to protect ourselves, we will destroy ourselves.

    We cannot have wars.  Why waste money on the military?

  •  you do know, don't you ... (4+ / 0-)

    that half of the military expenditures on planet earth are spent by the United States?

    Sort of the very definition of the word "overkill".

    Only the most misguided idealogues would believe that there is no need for a military.  

    What most of us have a problem with is the "overkill" part.  And the greed part.  And the looting of the treasury simply because you can part.  And the fearmongering to justify everything else I just mentioned part.  

    Listen, my Dad was a career Army officer.  I grew up, literally, in the military.  I don't have any of these romantic bullshit notions about it that so many people have.  An Army base is the most perfect example of pure socialism you'll ever see.  It's a pure drain of taxpayer dollars.  They produce nothing.  They spend as much as they're given, and they constantly ask for more.

    •  Pure Socialism? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Bronx59

      Work for pay and benefits is socialism? Please elaborate on that.

      •  Why should I? You're a troll (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Strawberrybitch

        If you weren't, I might explain it to you.  If you're actually in the military, it's pretty fucking obvious how the military is pure socialism.  The only difference is, you might get killed in your job.  

      •  Of course it is (5+ / 0-)

        And I'm really quite stunned that you don't understand that concept. When I was at Ft. Bragg, we'd sometimes discuss the irony of  the socialistic structure of a military force whose primary mission is to defend capitalism. This is not a bad thing; that structure is needed to operate efficiently.

        Think about it: everything is run from "central planning"; price-controlled commissaries and post exchanges; you don't get to choose which government-paid doctor supplies your free health-care; everyone in the same pay-grade gets the same pay, regardless of how many hours or how hard they work. Have you ever seen a Remax "for sale" sign in a base housing community? There's not a whiff of entrepreneurial capitalism between Little River and Plank Road.  

        •  there ya go (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          SheriffBart, Strawberrybitch

          thanks for typing that up.  I didn't have the patience to deal with this troll.

        •  Let's break this down... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          MyOwnClone

          "price-controlled commissaries and post exchanges"

          And there's a few private corporations that offer free cafeterias, or similar unconventional perks. Just look at Google as an example.

          "you don't get to choose which government-paid doctor supplies your free health-care"

          You threw in "government paid" to add the flavor of socialism, but it's irrelevant. Free health care is a more 'socialist sounding' way of saying we have medical coverage. I'll add a bullet below since most private coverage you choose your doctor.

          "everyone in the same pay-grade gets the same pay, regardless of how many hours or how hard they work."

          Fixed pay for positions are not unheard of in the private sector. Salaried employees don't get paid more no matter how hard or long they work.

          "Have you ever seen a Remax "for sale" sign in a base housing community?"

          No, but I have on the street I live on.

          "There's not a whiff of entrepreneurial capitalism between Little River and Plank Road."

          Well we do have retail stores, fast food resteraunts, private travel agencies, and all sorts of privately owned businesses on base.

          OK, so it's socialism because we don't pick a specific doctor.

          •  You're rationalizing (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            DelicateMonster, Strawberrybitch

            Private industries only offer perks, e.g. free cafeterias, if they're profitable.

            I "threw in" government-paid because it's a fact.

            Good private industry salaried workers get bonuses; bad ones don't.

            You obviously live off-post. Thousands of people live in on-base homes that have never been traded on the market through a real estate agency. It's socialized housing.

            OK, a handful of privately owned businesses  are now operating on the base, thus providing a slight whiff of capitalism.

            If you can't see the similarities between military structure and socialism, then you obviously don't understand socialism.  

            •  What? (0+ / 0-)

              Since when are free cafeterias profitable? What about free laundry?

              http://sfgate.com/...
              Free cafeteria food, annual ski trips to the Sierra and free laundry are just some of the fringe benefits of working at Google.

              So you threw in a completely irrelevant point because it's a fact? My rebuttal: A whale's penis is called a dork. That's a fact.

              "Good private industry salaried workers get bonuses; bad ones don't."

              OK, you got me on that one. The military doesn't offer bonuses but every private company does. Oh, wait. Nevermind.

              Military housing and barracks may be (comparable) to  socialism. But being that all the units are stationed on the military base, do you suggest increasing pay and then charging rent? This is for pragmatic, not social reasons.

              What I do see is only a couple things that can be misconstrued as a socialist trait. But flat out calling it socialism is completely wrong.

              •  Reading comprehension (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                moiv, DelicateMonster

                P r i v a t e   i n d u s t r i e s   o n l y   o f f e r   p e r k s,  f r e e   c a f e t e r i a s   f o r   e x a m p l e,   i f    t h e    p r i v a t e   i n d u s t r y  i s  p r o f i t a b l e.

                No matter how much you deny it, the source of a military doctor's paycheck is absolutely relevant. The name of a whale's penis is not (except to whales).

                Military bonuses are based on MOS, not merit.

                Military housing is socialized for pragmatic reasons.

                I'm done with you. You just don't get it. Maybe when you return to civilian life you'll reflect on your experiences with a more opened mind than you have now. I believe you will.

                Oh, I almost forgot - if/when you deploy overseas, be careful.

                •  Reading Comprehension? lol (0+ / 0-)

                  You said: "Private industries only offer perks, e.g. free cafeterias, if they're profitable."

                  It's perfectly reasonable to assume "they" is referring to the cafeterias. That can be rightfully interpreted either way, so it's not a matter of reading comp. It's a simple misunderstanding.

                  "the source of a military doctor's paycheck is absolutely relevant."

                  The doctors themselves are soldiers. Being a government employee has NOTHING to do with socialism.

                  "Military bonuses are based on MOS, not merit."

                  Really. Then explain how it is people receive more of a bonus for certain scores on the ASVAB. Or for a certain amount of college. Or for other non-job related reasons. And why am I even arguing with this... since when do employees of a socialist system EVEN RECEIVE A BONUS!?

            •  By your logic, socialism is rampant... (0+ / 0-)

              ... here are two fast examples of 'socialism', according to your definition:

              #1. Oil-field workers on an Exxon drill platform spend 6 month shifts living on the platform (in Exxon-built and owned dorms), eating Exxon food and wearing Exxon coveralls. That makes Exxon socialists, I suppose.

              #2. Wall Street summer interns are given a per diem, housed in Mahattan corporate apartments, and are given car service by their investment banks. So... I guess the banks are socialist, right?

              •  Nonsense (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                DelicateMonster

                Exxon and investment banks pay for these expenses with revenues gained through capitalistic enterprises. What is the military's source of revenue? What capitalistic endeavors does the military engage in? Is the military turning a profit?

                •  Spot on. (0+ / 0-)

                  I think it was an old 70s slogan:

                  When will the military hold a 'bake sale' to pay for their f-15s?

                  Something like that.

                  Actually, I much prefer it that the military be socialized and our education, health insurance and retirement as well. I guess we'll only get a small piece of that pie.

                  Anyhow, I just want congress to actually do what they're supposed to do and control the military's spending--which is fucking INSANE.

                  This minor point has proven the downfall of communism and will no doubt prove the downfall of our perverse hybrid of capitalism and militaristic socialism in denial --Our country is turning into the worst of all possible ideas.

                •  Ever hear of arms sales? (0+ / 0-)