Daily Kos

Why Are We in Iraq?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 04:23:17 AM PDT

In the 1960s and early 1970s, one of the most pressing political questions was "Why Are We in Vietnam?," which famously became the title of a novel/meditation/rant by Norman Mailer. But today's equivalent question--"Why Are We in Iraq?"--is not only unanswered, it's often unasked, especially inside the Beltway.

In an interesting and important exchange with Bob Guldin in the September 27 issue of The New York Review of Books, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Thomas Powers focuses on the failure of Congress, even since January, to ask the hard questions about why the Bush Administration attacked Iraq.

It's worth reading the whole thing, but Powers's conclusion is particularly important:  

American political leaders, Republicans as well as Democrats, did not ask hard questions before voting for war in 2002, they have not asked hard questions about the President's goals in the five years since, and they are not asking hard questions now about the true nature and prospects of the bold imperial adventure which the White House PR machine insists on calling a "war on terror." I have thought from the first day of war that it would destroy two presidents—suck up all their energy and attention, while every other matter of importance was allowed to drift. Two presidents, I thought, because the second in the early flush of triumph at winning the White House would look for a new strategy to put off or disguise the reality of failure, much as Nixon did in 1969. Of course the new strategy would fail, and the new president would find him- or herself insisting that the new strategy needed more time, or that someone else—Iran perhaps—was to blame. The lesson of Vietnam is that it doesn't take long to get stuck. Not knowing why we went in allowed us to go in; not knowing why we should get out will make it impossible to get out. None of the presidential candidates seems to know why we are failing, or to understand what is imperial about the way we deal with Iraq, or to sense that a bigger war is just another mistake away. I don't know what we can do about this.

Powers emphasizes the wishful thinking among those who want to get us out of Iraq that worrying about the causes of the war is unnecessarily dwelling on the past, rather than a necessary step in extracting ourselves from this disaster...and assuring that we don't repeat it in the future.

Powers suggests that the invasion of Iraq might have been an enormous, imperialist gamble by Bush and his cronies, perhaps the attempt to do what American policy makers feared the Soviet Union would do following the invasion of Afghanistan:  "control the movement of oil" in order to "provide a mighty tool for coercion of the entire developed world."  Powers clearly sees this conclusion as speculative, pending the kind of question-asking that he's calling for.

But, like Vietnam before it, Iraq is both a departure from, and a continuation of, U.S. policy. And one of the core building blocs of the case for war, beyond the lies and dissimulations of the Bush administration, beyond the nonsense about WMDs and 9/11, beyond even the Administration's mysterious real reasons for the invasion that Powers is searching for, was the core assumption of our foreign policy elite, shared by all who are considered "serious," Republican and Democrat alike: that the "projection of military force" in defense of (flexibly defined) "vital national interests" is the very foundation of American foreign policy.  Any argument in favor of the use of American military force is necessarily "serious" and worthy of consideration; any argument against the use of military force is assumed to be "unserious." Glenn Greenwald has recently blogged brilliantly about this.

This basic, bipartisan assumption in favor of militarism is why the administration's lies sounded so plausible to so many, why so many Democrats voted to give Bush the power to start a war, why even in the summer of 2004 the national Democratic Platform could say that "people of goodwill may disagree about whether America should have gone to war in Iraq" (p.8).

Confronting the question of why we're in Iraq is thus a matter not only of getting to the bottom of the extraordinary and radical imperial ambitions of this administration, but also of questioning the much more ordinary and consensual imperial ambitions that have marked this country's foreign policies since at least 1898.  

Powers has powerfully discussed why nobody in DC is interested in doing the former.  I think it's obvious why they're also uninterested in doing the latter.

Tags: Iraq, Congress, imperialism, oil, George W. Bush, Powers, militarism (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 53 comments

  •  Tip Jar (16+ / 0-)

    If there is to be a silver lining of our country's greatest foreign policy blunder, it will be that, finally, we will start to fundamentally rethink the US's behavior in the world.

    This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

    by GreenSooner on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 04:17:32 AM PDT

  •  Politicians aren't interested in asking.... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Navy Vet Terp, DWG, dolphin777, mrgardon

    ...the hard questions.

    More importantly, they aren't interested in hearing or knowing the answers.

    What they care about is themselves, and getting their own way...like spoiled children.

    I seriously doubt that there are any exceptions to this in America today. At any level.

    Equally important, is that they are interested in finding out how to benefit personally from corruption, preferably without anybody knowing it, but not necessarily without anybody knowing about it. They're flexible on that.

    •  For example, Congressional hearings (0+ / 0-)

      I vividly rememeber the Watergate hearings of my youth, the probing questions of Senators Ervin, Weicker, and even Republican Howard Baker.  Nowadays, Republicans ask questions such as "Tell me why more reasons why you think George Bush is a great president and doing everything right?", while Democrats, and often the Republicans as well, drone on and on and on making speeches not leaving much for the witness to say.

      "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars." William Jennings Bryan

      by Navy Vet Terp on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 07:43:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I had forgotten about this statement (6+ / 0-)

    "people of goodwill may disagree about whether America should have gone to war in Iraq"

    What a repulsive bit of weasel-speak. It was blatantly obvious this war was an act of aggression and a war crime from its conception.  The warning signs were there for everyone to see.  The Niger documents were known to be forgeries before it was featured in the 16 words in Bush 2003 SOTU speech.  Analysts were sharply critical and skeptical of the WMD claims.  The UN inspection teams were getting cooperation from IRAQ, but forced to leave so we could attack.  Countries with people on the ground in Iraq were disputing the capabilities.  Bush-Cheney drop a large mushroom-shaped turd on the American people.  That statement was nothing but a CYA statement to protect the spineless Democrats that went along with the war in the first place.  

    It is not hard to see that we would not have been as eager to invade a sovereign nation under false pretenses that did not have large oil reserves.  

    John McCain, Master of the Purpose Driven Lie.

    by DWG on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 04:50:59 AM PDT

    •  And yet... (0+ / 0-)

      ...our newly elected congress is doing what to stop this atrocity?

      Beer, politics & pizza - must have died and gone to heaven.

      by mrgardon on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 06:25:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thus I Am (0+ / 0-)

      more than tired of hearing how the democratic party is Sooooooo much better than the repugs.

      they're not.

      the fact the democrats eagerly jumped on the war mongering/war profiteering bandwagon (the only dissenting voice I recall was Robert Byrd-- who was dismissed as an "old crank") indicates more or less the exact same approach and philosophy as the repugs.

      so, ah, how does that make the democratic party BETTER?

      it doesn't.

      "Cigna cannot decide who is going to live and who is going to die." -- Nataline's mother

      by Superpole on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 06:43:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Q: Why are we in Iraq? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ezdidit, dolphin777, mrgardon

    A: It's profitable for US corporations and their bought-and-sold Congresspersons and Senators for us to be there.

    Any other questions?

    JUST SAY NO TO HILLIEBERMAN!!! "The truth is there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there?" ---"V"---

    by asskicking annie on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 05:01:19 AM PDT

    •  Lobbyists? (0+ / 0-)

      And yet the serpent that is the lobby slithers through the halls of power injecting it's deadly venom. Unseen for what it is hiding in plain sight.

      Beer, politics & pizza - must have died and gone to heaven.

      by mrgardon on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 06:31:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What a crock... (4+ / 0-)

    The Energy Taskforce was busy splitting up Iraq into swaths of development properties two weeks after Bush got into the White House.

    What kind of tripe is this? There's no confusion about the reason we're in Iraq from Richard Clarke.  And PNAC had demanded that Bill Clinton go into Iraq in force in 1996!

    Iraq, with only ten percent of the world's oil reserves, has some of the easiest oil to drill. It practically bubbles to the surface! You can smell it 30 miles away. And Iraq will all soon be a swamp under sea levels that are rising a lot faster than predicted.

    So, retribution for pere Bush plots was not the thinking behind it at all.  This is a war for oil fought for the elitist right wingnuttery of the party and the corporatocracy. This is a money scam to enrich the military industrial corporate complex, to keep retired government goons busy and to line the pockets of....tada::  HALLIBURTON.

    This is Cheney grafting on steroids coupled with Skull & Bones 75-year patrician planning...This is Big Oil's last gasp to make money.

    What serious writer overlooks the obvious?

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson

    by ezdidit on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 05:39:35 AM PDT

    •  Well this answers my question above... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MarketTrustee, dolphin777

      ...but even you are proposing a series of probable causes, the particular interaction of which is unclear:

      • PNAC's obsession with asserting American unipolar dominance in the world.
      • Big oil's rather old concerns about controlling natural resources.
      • The larger military-industrial complex's interest in war.

      If you read the Powers piece none of this is incompatible with what he suggests.  He's just saying that Congress ought to be trying to reveal explicitly how these factors (and others) may have combined to bring the war about.

      This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

      by GreenSooner on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 05:51:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  CONGRESS IS A JOKE (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MarketTrustee, ezdidit

        my friends, and I mean this seriously.

        congress, starting with Vietnam (possibly sooner) got into the very bad and dangerous habit of abrogating its exclusive war making and war funding powers to the POTUS and the Pentagon-- the Pentagon possibly being one of the few actual long term planners (along with the transnational oil corporations) who if you look at it, have been expanding the number of U.S. military bases in the ME and Caspian regions for the last thirty years.

        what is the resource which in those regions which is a vital "national interest" to the U.S. and our military? and of vital interest, profit wise to BP, Exxon and the rest?

        OIL. OIL. OIL.

        it's obvious WHY congress is not asking the hard questions here. because this is simply a continuation of long term U.S. policy, i.e. U.S. covert agencies and the military being used to expand and protect U.S. corporations dominance (profits) in certain regions of the world:

        When John F. Kennedy took office, he launched the Alliance for Progress, a program of help for Latin America, emphasizing social reform to better the lives of people. But it turned out to be mostly military aid to keep in power right-wing dictatorships and enable them to stave off revolutions.

        From military aid, it was a short step to military intervention. What Truman had said at the start of the Korean war about "the rule of force" and the "rule of law" was again and again, under Truman and his successors, contradicted by American action. In Iran, in 1953, the Central Intelligence Agency succeeded in overthrowing a government which nationalized the oil industry. In Guatemala, in 1954, a legally elected government was overthrown by an invasion force of mercenaries trained by the CIA at military bases in Honduras and Nicaragua and supported by four American fighter planes flown by American pilots. The invasion put into power Colonel Carlos Castillo Armas, who had at one time received military training at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

        The government that the United States overthrew was the most democratic Guatemala had ever had. The President, Jacobo Arbenz, was a left-of-center Socialist; four of the fifty-six seats in the Congress were held by Communists. What was most unsettling to American business interests was that Arbenz had expropriated 234,000 acres of land owned by United Fruit, offering compensation that United Fruit called "unacceptable." Armas, in power, gave the land back to United Fruit, abolished the tax on interest and dividends to foreign investors, eliminated the secret ballot, and jailed thousands of political critics.

        In 1958, the Eisenhower government sent thousands of marines to Lebanon to make sure the pro-American government there was not toppled by a revolution, and to keep an armed presence in that oilrich area.

        http://writing.upenn.edu/...

        this is academic-- it's there in the record for anyone who wants to see and comprehend.

        the REAL question here is when are we the sappy citizens going to WAKE UP and do something about it?

        fact: Congress is NOT going to change this policy-- it's been in place wayyyyy too long, and the powers that be LIKE IT THIS WAY, because they are vastly increasing their wealth.

        "Cigna cannot decide who is going to live and who is going to die." -- Nataline's mother

        by Superpole on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 07:03:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  decisions in which we do not participate (0+ / 0-)

        we being constituents of the congress of a democratic republic, so called. congress is a political cartel, created and sustained by popular election and "popular" beliefs. readers can debate those beliefs in federal governance, domestic legal matters as well as the international telology of 300M subjects/citizens until the cows come home. speakers will not. think about this language of revelation: we accept that they hide facts. we have cultivated the sport of politics which presumes stealth is as strategically valuable as cash in implementing governance and adjudicating conflict between members and between members and constituents. how wack is that?

        so wack that we forget the individuals who violate the color and code of law. powers, like everyone else, speaks in trope (pnac, big oil, corporatists, military force, freedom, etc), knowing congress will  permit no further prosecution of its crimininal members or the administration than that which has been tastefully presented. well, hell, the law and law enforcement authority are changing every day to indemnify their best intentions ...

        Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

        by MarketTrustee on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 07:39:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree about oil (0+ / 0-)

        I think the neocons had this grand scheme to duplicate our post World War II occupations of Japan and West Germany and turn Iraq into a democratic paradise.  When the Arab "man on the street" in other countries saw this new Eden he and his fellows would rise up and overthrow their own dictators or monarchs, and democracy would spread throughout the Middle East.  People would see the futility of continued war with Israel and make peace with the Jewish state, and, of course, the new democratic governments would all be close to the country which brought them his Democratic paradise, the USA.

        Of course, this new paradise would secure oil supplies, but I think that was a secondary consideration to these neocons.

        They had a lot of fancy degrees from pretentious universities, but they were stupid and ignorant and knew nothing about Iraq and the Middle East outside of Israel-Palestine, knew nothing about Japanese history, or anything about German history outside of 1933 to 1945.  

        "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars." William Jennings Bryan

        by Navy Vet Terp on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 07:54:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  okay, uh, wanna see a map ...or three? (0+ / 0-)

        These are from March 2001. I call this prima facie evidence of a plan, but wait...  

        The reason hasn't anything at all to do with any of the author's naive (snarky?) speculation.

        Over thirty years ago, they were casually gaming an oil crisis for sport one Sunday afternoon, and they realized that light sweet crude was an essential commodity.  Somebody said, "What if we really do run out? The American people will not ask for fuel to heat their homes, they will demand it."

        Thus was born a book, Three Days of the Condor, a/k/a the movie, Six Days of the Condor. (or maybe it was vice versa?)

        warning .pdf's , but not biggies at all:
        Exhibit A: http://www.judicialwatch.org/...

        Exhibit B: http://www.judicialwatch.org/...
        &
        Exhibit C: http://www.judicialwatch.org/...

        IMhO, these were last minute official business, just dotting the i's and crossing the t's.

        The final revisions reside at DoD OSP...
        office of strategic plans, and that makes it Top Secret.

        So whenever Leahy gets around to trying to crucify Cheney, we'll probably be into Act IV of the kabuki play called, "We Don't Have The Votes."

        This is how they show their love for us. They really do care about whether we freeze to death or not. So, you want to know why we went into Iraq? For some naive idea about Bush pere? for something to do with Halliburton?

        War is such a profitable racket....

        "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson

        by ezdidit on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 02:59:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  As in Vietnam, Congress is embarassed (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Superpole, dolphin777, mrgardon

    with that question. This war was fought for a very simple reason. George W. Bush and especially Dick Cheney are exactly the two people Dwight Eisenhower had in mind when he spoke of the dangers of the "Military Industrial Complex". For the first time, I watched that Bill Mahre show on HBO a couple of weeks ago. Now I know why I haven't watched it before. Bill Mahre's sanctimonious bs is very grating. However, there was one moment of clarity from John Mellencamp that I really felt hit the nail on the head. He was asked why mid-westerners or the Chevy pickup truck Americans go republican and vote for security all the time. He said because they were simple folks who BELIEVED everything that was said to them. It dawned on me since the 50s the companies with the deepest pockets in America is the military industrial complex. They manufacture the world's most expensive shit, they also pay the most for public relations. We believe their bs. We believe when they push the administration and Congress to name boogymen to wage war on. Vietnam was fought because the Truman doctrine was believed by the powers that be. We will continue, regardless of president, to fight wars like this because we have to use the hardware and technology these companies manufacture in order to keep our military industrial complex based economy rolling. The war is the only thing since 9/11 that allowed our economy to stay out of recession and increase inflation. If you remember, our economy was heading into the tank from the time Bush took over government. That is why we're fighting in Iraq, and why we will be there for decades as we are in Germany, in Korea, in fact, all over the globe. We don't have a choice if we wish to remain THE superpower of the globe and keep our economy flowing.

    You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

    by tazz on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 05:40:12 AM PDT

  •  I think it has now become clear that the real (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Superpole, chigh, dolphin777, mrgardon

    reason we went into Iraq is tied to what went on in Dick Cheney's infamous secret energy meetings.

    The emergence of China as a manufacturing power and like the US, a super consumer of energy, coupled with the industrys fear that we have reached "Peak Oil", made a supply disruption in the middle east something that could have grave impact on the US and certainly grave impact on the US Oil Industry.

    Certain elements in the government felt that this confluence of events in and of itself justified establishing a "strong presence" in the Middle East.

    This of course makes it an illegal war and makes its perpetrators war criminals but don't hold out any hopes that this will ever go the Hague.

    The short and simple fact is that we went in for oil and we are going to stay in for oil and it doesn't matter who controls Kongress or who controls the White House and that will also be the judgement of history.

    •  Without impeachment and war crimes trials... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Superpole

      ...we are going to see more of the same no matter who we elect to fuck us around ...oops I mean elect to serve as our next president.

      Beer, politics & pizza - must have died and gone to heaven.

      by mrgardon on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 06:38:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Correct, and Our Great Leader (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        mrgardon

        Nancy Pelosi (accckk!) made it clear months before the 2006 election that "impeachment was off the table".

        what a pathetic, weak LOAD that was-- but a HUGE indicator that congress has in fact handed its exclusive war making and war funding powers to a criminal POTUS-- they handed this to him on a silver platter.

        now any "tough talk" by wimps like Reid must be considered that-- it's just bullshit talk meant to appease the saps out there who still believe the democratic party has one iota of leverage.

        "Cigna cannot decide who is going to live and who is going to die." -- Nataline's mother

        by Superpole on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 07:08:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Leo Strauss taught Paul Wolfowitz... (4+ / 0-)

    ...and (directly or indirectly) the rest of the neocons (actually a radical postmodern group that has nothing to do with actual conservatism) the honor, prestige and sense of purpose of perpetual war.  Pick any "foe" -- just a people who are unlike us and go for it.

    •  Gotta disagree (in part) (0+ / 0-)

      Straussians have been an important element in neoconservatism (though most of Wolfowitz's Straussianism comes from Allan Bloom,  with whom he studied as an undergraduate; his non-Straussian dissertation adviser Albert Wohlstetter was also important), and it's entirely fair to call Strauss and his followers both radical and postmodern (though they are also conservative...Strauss was, at heart, a somewhat idiosyncratic interwar German conservative).

      However, Strauss didn't preach perpetual war or the doctrine that politics is about the enemy. That would be Carl Schmitt, with whom Strauss had a professional relationship in the early '30s but with whom Strauss disagreed about a number of important things. Incidentally, I think it's less fair to call Schmitt a postmodern thinker, fwiw.

      Strauss was not, in any simple sense, a Schmittian. I think there are certainly Schmittian ideas afoot among the neocons, but I'm not convinced they come from Leo Strauss. They may, in fact, represent a kind of convergent evolution out of the Burnhamite Troskyism from which many early neocons came (on Trostsky, Burham and the neocons, see Gary Dorrien's excellent The Neoconservative Mind)

      This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

      by GreenSooner on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 08:55:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree. (0+ / 0-)

        Although both Schmitt and Strauss' aim was to glorify and romanticize the political, Strauss' politics are much more radical than Scmmitt's.   Strauss wanted to re-theologize the political sphere, thus making it far more dangerous than Schmitt's position.  Still, Schmitt saw the necessity and inevitability of a "foe" and endless war against the "foe" (which Strauss picked up on).  See Schmitt's "The Concept of the Political," although I'll have to get back to you if you need page references.

        As I recall, Bloom just took Strauss' basic principles, popularized them and applied them to education in The Closing of the American Mind.  In terms of essentials, I see no real difference between the two.  If you do, please elaborate.  

        •  Couple this with Strauss' interpretation of Plato (0+ / 0-)

          ...where he assumes Plato's mouthpiece is not Socrates, but Thrasymachus -- whose position is that justice is simply a fabrication or human convention.  Thus, a war doesn't have to be just in the real sense -- this construct of "justice" will automatically be awarded to the stronger in any war.   Makes it far simpler to wage war.

          •  Shadia Drury does argue that Strauss... (0+ / 0-)

            ...sees Thrasymachus as Plato's mouthpiece. Most other readers of Strauss disagree.  Unfortunately, one of the many problems with Strauss's famous dictum that philosophers write esoterically is that it can be maddeningly difficult to be sure what Strauss was really arguing.

            Again, what's practically important here would be whether important neoconservatives believe that Strauss saw Thrasymachus as Plato's mouthpiece. And this is also a tricky question.  

            This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

            by GreenSooner on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 05:23:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thrasymachus... (0+ / 0-)

              Shadia Drury does argue that Strauss sees Thrasymachus as Plato's mouthpiece.   Most other readers of Strauss disagree.   Unfortunately, one of the many problems with Strauss's famous dictum that philosophers write esoterically is that it can be maddeningly difficult to be sure what Strauss was really arguing.

              Drury's argument is enormously persuasive, though.   She goes about interpreting Strauss himself as he likely would expect a philosopher to do -- assume he (Strauss) wrote esoterically.   I'm aware of no one else who takes that approach on Strauss himself.

              Again, what's practically important here would be whether important neoconservatives believe that Strauss saw Thrasymachus as Plato's mouthpiece.   And this is also a tricky question.

              Yes, we'd have to take them one at a time.

        •  Lots to Cover Here... (0+ / 0-)

          Bloom and Strauss: I mentioned Bloom simply for the sake of accuracy, not to suggest that Strauss was not an influence on Wolfowitz. But Wolfowitz got most of his Strauss through Bloom.  Wolfowitz was very close to Bloom but took only one course from Strauss.  Bloom is certainly one of the key figures in Straussianism, but Straussianism is deeply divided. Other Strauss students like Harry Jaffa tend to suggest that Bloom distorts Strauss. I take it that ultimately what's at issue in this discussion is who influenced the neoconservatives. And a number of intelligent critics of Strauss and the Straussians (including Mark Lilla and Anne Norton) suggest that Bloom fell further from the tree than is usually suggested.  It should be said that Shadia Drury, probably the best known critic of Strauss, argues that Bloom was one of the few students were given Strauss's true teaching, and that other students, like Jaffa, were just told noble lies.  

          I do think that it's simply inaccurate to say that Strauss himself wanted to "glorify and romanticize the political." Strauss saw  political life as fundamentally inferior to philosophical life and in fact many of his more bizarre views about politics flow from the fact that he's chiefly interested in politics as it relates to the ability for a philosophical elite to practice philosophy.

          This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

          by GreenSooner on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 05:19:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting replies...thanks. (0+ / 0-)

            I've got to go offline soon 'till tomorrow sometime.   I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

          •  Glorifying and romanticizing... (0+ / 0-)

            I do think that it's simply inaccurate to say that Strauss himself wanted to "glorify and romanticize the political."   Strauss saw  political life as fundamentally inferior to philosophical life and in fact many of his more bizarre views about politics flow from the fact that he's chiefly interested in politics as it relates to the ability for a philosophical elite to practice philosophy.

            I meant that he glorified and romanticized the political as he saw it -- with its full underlying theological motivational and manipulative underpinnings and assumptions. He glorified and romanticized the whole ball of wax -- as a unit --  for mass consumption.

      •  Also see... (0+ / 0-)

        Strauss' conversation with A. Kojeve (in Strauss' "On Tyranny") -- also Strauss' commentary on Schmitt's book I cited above, which is contained in Heinrich Meier's "Carl Schmitt and Leo Strauss: The Hidden Dialogue" where all three were convinced that man's "humanity" depended on his willingness to rush naked into battle and to his death -- and also that only perpetual war can overturn the modernity they hated.

        •  Been awhile since I've read the Meier book... (0+ / 0-)

          ...and the Strauss-Schmitt exchange, but I really don't remember Strauss suggesting that perpetual war was the solution to the problem of modernity.  Strauss's chief argument in the exchange is that, in turning to Hobbes, Schmitt is insufficiently radical in his rejection of liberalism as Hobbes himself is a liberal.

          It is true that Meier, who is more insistent on a deep Strauss-Schmitt connection than just about anyone else, is very popular among the current generation of Straussians.

          As I hope you can tell, I'm not arguing here that Strauss or the Straussians are unimportant to the construction of neoconservatism. I simply think that they are one of many intellectual tributaries of neoconservatism.  This does put me at odds with Drury, at least in her second book on Strauss, in which she basically holds Strauss uniquely responsible for all of modern American conservatism.

          This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

          by GreenSooner on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 05:32:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Tributaries... (0+ / 0-)

            I simply think that they are one of many intellectual tributaries of neoconservatism.

            What do you feel are others?   And do you think they (individually and/or collectively) outweigh Strauss' influence?

            I think Plato and Hegel's collectivism play a role, as does Kant's denial of the efficacy of man's reason and ability to know reality.  Although neocons may not even be aware that these are influences.

            •  Burhamite Trotskyism, for one (0+ / 0-)

              Gary Dorrien in The Neoconservative Mind argues for the centrality of James Burham for the founders of neconsservatism.  And I find his view a lot more persuasive than Drury's in Leo Strauss and the American Right (her first book on the political ideas of Leo Strauss is a lot better).

              Dorrien's advantages are two: first he actually bothers to trace historical connections, not merely find supposed ideological affinities. And, just as importantly, he sees neoconservatism as having had a variety of influences, not simply as the coming-into-being of a single person's philosophical legacy.

              All of which is not to say that Strauss was not important for the neoconservatives, especially for Irving Kristol (among the first generation of neocons) and for the many students of Straussians among the second generation.  But for many of the other first generation neoconservatives (e.g. Norman Podhoretz), the relationship to Strauss or Straussianism is a lot more tenuous. And the political involvement of the students of Leo Strauss himself, while almost always conservative, was not particularly neoconservative.

              (Sorry for the lateness of this response...I was away from my computer for a few days)  

              This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

              by GreenSooner on Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 01:58:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not familiar with that book. (0+ / 0-)

                first he actually bothers to trace historical connections, not merely find supposed ideological affinities

                Can you elaborate?

                •  An Elaboration (0+ / 0-)

                  Dorrien's book The Neoconservative Mind is really terrific, and I highly recommend it. It's out-of-print, but widely available used.  Dorrien is an historian, unlike Drury, who's a political theorist. Drury's technique is to draw ideological/philosophical connections between (her reading of) Strauss and the beliefs and behavior of the contemporary Republican Party.  Dorrien's technique to trace the actual political development of the leading neoconservative thinkers, by reading their writings and putting them in historical context.  

                  The most significant problem with Dorrien's book is that it's almost a decade-and-a-half old at this point, so the story really only goes through the 1980s. However, his somewhat drier, but also excellent, book on the neoconservatives in the long run-up to the Iraq War, Imperial Designs: Neoconservatives and the New Pax Americana, nicely supplements and updates the earlier book.

                  This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

                  by GreenSooner on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 04:15:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Back... (0+ / 0-)

                    Drury's technique is to draw ideological/philosophical connections between (her reading of) Strauss and the beliefs and behavior of the contemporary Republican Party.  Dorrien's technique to trace the actual political development of the leading neoconservative thinkers, by reading their writings and putting them in historical context.

                    Can you give an example from each, so I have a better idea of precisely what you're comparing?

                    •  I'm Comparing Their Entire Books (0+ / 0-)

                      Drury and Dorrien take fundamentally different approaches to studying the right.  Perhaps this is unsurprising as the former is a political theorist, the latter an historian. But the chief problem with Drury's approach in Leo Strauss and the American Right is that she finds similarities between Strauss (and occasionally other thinkers in Strauss's orbit) and current aspects of contemporary conservatism and then just assumes a causal link.

                      Here's an example.  In her discussion of Willmoore Kendall, an important mid-twentieth-century conservative who is unusual among conservative thinkers of his (older) generation for having taken Strauss seriously. However, most of his important ideas were formulated before his encounter with Strauss.  At any rate, here's Drury's take (p. 130):

                      [Kendall argues that] populism is the cure for America's liberal malaise.  The strategy has its foundation in Carl Schmitt's important distinction between liberalism and democracy. This is not a secret or a sinister plot. It is a strategy that is embraced in good faith out of love for America. The trouble is that the cure might turn out to be worse than the disease.

                      What did Kendall think of Schmitt? Had Kendall even read Schmitt? Drury never says.  Establishing an affinity between their thought is enough for her to conclude that the foundation of Kendall's thought is Schmitt.  This is not good intellectual history. And this passage is absolutely typical of Drury's argumentation in this book, where similarities between Leo Strauss's thought (or in this case Carl Schmitt's thought) and later US conservative thought automatically mean that the former inspired and caused the latter.

                      Now let's look at Dorrien on the subject of early influences on Irving Kristol (from p. 70 of The Neoconservative Mind):

                      [Kristol's] undergraduate years matched the high-water mark of American Trotksyism.  By his account, he learned how to construct an argument by reading the high-powered polemics of James Burnham, Max Shachtman, Leon Trotsky, and C.L.R. James that filled The New International. Kristol supplemented this intellectual diet by struggling with the leftist, culturally modernist Partisan Review--"even simply to understand it seemed a goal beyond my reach"--but it was the Trotskyist theoretical organ that provided the formative influence on his development.

                      Dorrien goes on to describe in much more explicit detail what this education consisted of, always backing his claims up with the testimony of Kristol and others who were in his (then Trotskyist) circle.

                      So, to sum up:  Drury finds a similarity between the political thought of X and the political thought of Y and, on that basis alone, concludes that X caused Y. Dorrien traces the actual intellectual development of the figures he studies, spelling out in great and complicated detail how their intellectual biographies are reflected in their later ideologies.  

                      To be a bit crude, it's the difference between guilt by (loose) association and intellectual history.  

                      This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

                      by GreenSooner on Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 06:31:54 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

  •  Because it's there. (0+ / 0-)

    McCain: Running for Hoover's 21st term

    by Finck II on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 06:18:07 AM PDT

  •  The Iraq War was started (0+ / 0-)

    to guarentee 4 more years of republican White House rule in the 2004 election. I have said this since day one and no one will ever convince me otherwise. That was the sole purpose of the rovian/bush/cheney war.

    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. G. Orwell

    by DickCheneyBeforeHeDicksYou on Sun Sep 23, 2007 at 07:17:06 AM PDT

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