Daily Kos

Any Other Primary Fence-Sitters Here?

Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 03:21:12 PM PDT

It's that time of year when any diary that argues strongly in favor of a particular candidate can feel a little suspect.  Are they part of the campaign?  Are they simply sharing their feelings about the candidate, or are they in campaign mode, deliberately glossing over flaws, pumping up features, and generally indulging in talking points?  It's hard to see what's real and what's not.

And so, just because I can, and because I'm hungry for some more honest opinions from people who haven't decided yet, I'm going to share my own impressions of each of the candidates right now, from my perch atop the fence.  If you're also a fence-sitter like me, please weigh in with your thoughts.

In the past, my favorite candidate has been Edwards, Obama, Clinton, Biden, Richardson.  Dodd has me mildly curious as well.  

Edwards: I was a bonafide Edwards supporter for a while.  Some days he's still my first choice, but I think he's had some missteps recently.  I have always really liked his behind-the-scenes life.  Even back to the 2004 campaign, I remember the whole thing about him seeming blow-dried or "breck" or whatever.  But I always knew he was a very human, good man underneath that.  What I always liked about him most was that he was one who - even in 2004 - seemed best (along with Clark) at not accepting premises to slanted questions.  That's one of the most key elements to being able to responsibly wield power, in my mind.  I've been pleased to see him adopt more well-thought-out positions over the years (which usually means more progressive, but not always).  But... I wonder if he might be losing his nerve a bit by watching the poll numbers.  Some of the campaign's stunts lately have just been silly.  The one that bugged me the most was about supporting an act for Congress to vote themselves out of health benefits.  Really made me roll my eyes.  Sure, it's just a stunt, but it shows a kind of panic coming from their campaign that makes me concerned about what they'll do in the future.  The numbers right now can show momentum for various candidates, but they're all soft.  People might jump on the Clinton bandwagon, but at this point, it's like "ah sure, she seems to be moving ahead, must be good, I'll stick with her too".  No real thought behind it.  Support is soft.  What moves people ahead as people start paying attention (in a couple of months) is the strength of a candidate's narrative.  Edwards has shown the most ability for this in the past.  Edwards supposedly learned the lesson from his Iraq vote that he should trust himself more.  If that's the truth, he needs to prove it now and trust that his message will eventually come through.  If he distracts himself with cheap stunts and attacking other candidates and the "establishment" in a way that contradicts his message, I'll have lost faith in him.

Obama: I've gone back and forth on this guy.  I was a huge supporter of him back when he was attempting to have an honest conversation with dailykos through his diaries.  I thought that showed real leadership and I respected it.  But since then he seems to be a lot more about promise.  He's got a great brand but I still don't trust what is behind it.  I know he's got a lot of policy proposals now to back everything up, but that doesn't help me trust his ability to enact them.  I honestly don't see a way out of this for him.  When I think about Obama, I think about the old advice for novelists and screenwriters: "Show, don't Tell."  We're getting a lot of telling from Obama.  Telling us what he'll bring, telling us how he represents change.  Even his campaign message - change - is the most ambiguous of the other narratives.  I have a pretty good idea of what's being changed from, a pretty dim idea of what's being changed to, and absolutely no idea of how that change will be accomplished.  Beyond that, I have to admit being a little turned off by the style and tone of his supporters.  Maybe at 37 I'm turning into an old fogey.  Sometimes the passion-to-thoughtfulness ratio is just a little high for me.  I think that in order for Obama to neutralize this stuff, he needs to take some ACTIONS.  Mobilize his supporters in some way to actually create some visible social change.  Or do something legislatively ballsy that will SHOW us his principles.  Give me something to hang my hat on.  I don't trust when it's just limited to message, tone, and promise of change.  When you think about it, that's pretty much how Bush won in 2000.

Clinton: Her message is competence.  She's freakishly disciplined - her campaign has seemed to be about riding her strength, never really needing to take any kind of actual leadership actions, but then taking steps to methodically inoculate herself against all her perceived weaknesses.  She seems like less of a pawn to me now, that was my impression a few months ago when she was all campaign hype and almost no visibility.  She's very good at not taking bait.  And honestly, my own sense of her is that she's a bit stealth.  I think she's more liberal than Bill, but can't and won't admit it.  The question is whether she'd ever let that come through, or if she would just stick with being careful and disciplined throughout her entire presidency.  Overall, she's the most opaque of the candidates.  I find little reason to actively support her, but I find less and less reason to oppose her.  She's kind of the benchmark candidate - she doesn't need a narrative other than "competence" (second-vaguest behind Obama's "change").  No one will be able to take her down by attacking her (something Obama and Edwards should take to heart).  The way to beat her is to construct a message/narrative that has enough momentum to overtake her under its own power.

Biden:  His message is basically the hard truths.  I can't underscore how much appreciate it.  He makes the debates better.  He keeps others honest.  I hope other candidates drop out and Biden stays until the bitter end, because the more Biden, the more the other candidates will be tested, and the stronger they will become.  I want to know more about what Biden thinks about the other candidate's plans.  Biden just needs to stick around.  He's not viable as a candidate right now because he's not really even running as one - I never see anything in press from him about him putting forward social policy plans, etc.  But he could become one if the other candidates self-destruct.  A lot has been said about Biden's foot in mouth problem.  But I think he's pretty inoculated from that now.  Everyone knows he's going to do it, so it'll just be an entertaining sideshow when he does.  It doesn't feed into a narrative of him being unfit for office, because he's a freaking institution by now.  Besides, his words would be a relief after Bush.  I'm also interested in his defense of voting for the bankruptcy bill.  I think that if pressed, he'd actually be willing to debate it, explain it, defend it, or apologize for it.

Richardson: I have to admit I'm basically following the dailykos lead here.  He just doesn't seem serious.  I look at him and I can't even fathom how he's accomplished all the other things he's accomplished.  It's like there's some phantom super-Richardson flying around the world saving the day, and I see absolutely no linkage between that guy and the guy I see at the podiums.  He's got to do a better job at showing that Richardson to the world, because as it is now, podium-Richardson is damaging the credibility of super-Richardson.  Where are those skills that solves problems?  Not a rhetorical question, I really want to see them in order to feel better about him.

Dodd: He's basically been taking all the steps the netroots want him to take.  I recognize that as a pattern, but I don't really know anything more about him.  I'm not sure if that is because of a campaign strategy, or because of an underlying set of principles as expressed through a campaign-driving narrative.

Kucinich: I don't trust this guy.  He puts idealism ahead of realism.  I don't know what he would do if Congress authorized military action.  I'd like to see him leave the race because I think he dumbs down the debates in the same way that Biden makes them more intelligent.  As far as speaking truth to power, Gravel's almost more useful.  The only thing that gives me pause is that the primary needs a voice speaking on behalf of singer-payer health care.

Gravel: He's useful to have around but probably shouldn't be given any more time in the debates than he has been given.

So, at this point it all once again seems to be about Iowa.  I think what is going to decide it is the emergence of a real campaign-specific narrative - something Real that a candidate stands for.  I used to think Edwards had the best shot of this but now I'm not so sure.

And I also think that if Gore entered, he'd have those storylines in spades... he'd be a monster.  But he needs to stay mythic in order for it to happen.  Sometimes I wonder what would happen if he released a twist on the Sherman Statement: "If nominated, I will not run.  But if elected, I will serve."

Poll

Who you leaning towards?

16%25 votes
3%5 votes
13%20 votes
13%20 votes
21%32 votes
1%2 votes
9%14 votes
15%23 votes
4%7 votes

| 148 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: 2008 Democratic Primary, John Edwards, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Bill Richardson, Barack Obama, Chris Dodd, Mike Gravel, Dennis Kucinich (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 89 comments

    •  I don't have my mind made up. (8+ / 0-)

      I just don't want it to be Hillary.  But regardless of who gets it (even if it's her) I'll support and vote for them long before I go near any of the Repugs.

      I'm running for office! Click here to support me!

      by djtyg on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 03:28:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agree on Richardson, not so much on Biden and (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      oysterface, bythesea

      Obama.  I see Obama, not Biden, as the hard truths guy; he's the only one who goes to groups (Wall Street, teachers unions, AIPAC, etc.) and tells them specifically what they don't want to hear (corporate greed has hurt the middle class, accountability is important, most Israelis are willing to make sacrifices for peace).  I find Biden to be more in the role that you see Kucinich: an ego trip candidate that will hopefully be the first to remove himself from the debates, so as to let the discussion move forward.

      I've been heavily leaning towards Obama for a long time, but I like a lot of things about Edwards, I find Gravel and Kucinich to be useful in the debates as uncautious candidates who can speak freely, and I take pride that when people across the country think of the Senator from my state of CT, they'll now think of a good man who upholds the Constitution (Dodd) instead of the lying warmonger who clung to office in a fashion offensive to democracy (Lieberman).

      Obama/McCaskill vs. McCain/Jindal? Call it a funny feeling.

      by ShadowSD on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 04:21:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You did a wonderful evenhanded anlaysis (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tunesmith

      Good.  I'll look forward to your other diaries.

      Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

      by hairspray on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 05:24:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm still on the fence. (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JR, oysterface, blueyedace2, luckylizard

    I lean Dodd then Richardson then Obama but obviously the first two are sort of also rans.

    Dodd is doing more than "taking the steps the netroots" want him too. He has been consistantly saying the things he's saying for years.

    It's just that the media ignores him like they always have.

    •  Happy on the fence (9+ / 0-)

      I prefer Obama, but I do not commit to candidates because I do not want to get my heart broken and recognize that my contribution would be insignificant. I can't root for the defeat of a Democrat I find acceptable or positive in their own right, and I have nothing against Edwards and have come to like Clinton more and more against my better judgment.

      So I sit on the fence and read the threads, glad I am not so emotionally invested in a candidate that I would get as upset as I see some individuals getting in frustration.

      •  I watched the implosion of my boy (9+ / 0-)

        Dean from my Paris hotel room. If I hadn't been in such an awesome place I probably would have been devastated. As it was I was fairly depresed.

      •  I find this a fascinating statement ... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cpresley

        I have nothing against Edwards and have come to like Clinton more and more against my better judgment.

        I'm a Hillarista, but I'd genuinely like to hear you expand on this some more.

        The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

        by al Fubar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 05:02:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  A few things for me (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          al Fubar, oysterface, ChiGirl88

          Its how she called him darth the other day. Its how she can say "a president that can finally ask for directions" (or however she said it) Its how she said "oh I'll talk to him later".

          Its the confidence!

          I am beginning to like her. Quite disconcerting to tell you the truth.

          •  She grows on you ... (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            kck, masslib

            I've always liked Hillary, but so far as this campaign goes, up till summer I was waiting to get excited by Obama, and Hillary seemed like a death march. It was the debate about meeting foreign baddies that pulled me in. Obama didn't make a huge mistake, but it was a rookie mistake - and Hillary slipped the knife in before you saw the flash of the blade.

            Basically, watching Edwards and Obama go against her is like watching two top-rated college teams go against an NFL team.

            The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

            by al Fubar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 05:31:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The knife (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              kck

              Obama didn't make a huge mistake, but it was a rookie mistake - and Hillary slipped the knife in before you saw the flash of the blade.

              I remain unconvinced that it was a mistake. She did slip in the knife nonetheless. There is no doubt that it was a slick move, and Obama did an excellent job of just barely recovering from it.

              •  The mistake ... (0+ / 0-)

                Was agreeing in advance, and without precondition, to meet foreign baddies personally. It was either a trick question or a poorly worded one. Obama answered in the spirit of contrasting his own willingness to do diplomacy with Bush's contempt for diplomacy. It was a perfectly good answer in spirit, but ignored the subtleties of actual diplomacy.

                It's as if I asked you, "If you saw a child drowning in the lake, would you grab an anchor and dive in to save him?" The impulsive, natural human answer is yes, but the answer for practical lifesaving is no.

                The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

                by al Fubar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 06:25:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  it was a "gaffe" in the sense that dean made them (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  red 83

                  in that it was a perfectly reasonable thing to say that cut across the grain of the "serious" DC consensus on foreign policy. what is hopelessly naive IMO is hillary's assumption that the US can just dictate terms for the rest of the world, and that speaking with any foreign leader is a sign of weakness and not strength. it's petty and childish, and exceptionally self-defeatingly arrogant to boot.

                  and i say this as one who is rather unimpressed with obama, lest the shills pop out and accuse me of being a shill.

                  surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

                  by wu ming on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 08:17:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  That's why she's my 2nd choice (0+ / 0-)

            I'm supporting Obama with my heart, but if Hillary's the nominee I won't have a problem voting for her because I know she'll be a strong competitor and a good president.

            "Spoken like a true smartass."

            by ChiGirl88 on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 05:32:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Nothing exciting (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          al Fubar

          I've always respected her as an individual, but I did not like the idea of dueling dynasties, and I was afraid of how widely she appeared to be disliked by so many people.

          I've recognized that I like her more than I know, and that my perceptions of how she is perceived are narrow because of the world I'm exposed to.

        •  Also (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          al Fubar

          It took conversations with several Hillary supporters. If you spend time on Daily Kos, you don't think there are any! Several of my friends support Hillary, and I listened to their reasons and changed from "are you crazy?" to "I can see your point."

          •  In the DKos-verse ... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            brittain33

            Obama has roughly the same support that he does in national polls, while Hillary and Edwards are flipped - Edwards close to 40 percent, Hillary around 12 percent.

            What you see most in diaries and message threads is that there are a fairly small number of people who REALLY don't like Hillary, and spend scads of diaries and posts saying so. While she's certainly not the local fave, active dislike of her is far narrower than it seems at first glance.

            The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

            by al Fubar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 06:53:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  My own experience (0+ / 0-)

              Both my parents hate Hillary. In my father's case, it doesn't matter, because he's a Republican and would convince himself he hates Edwards and Obama if they were to win the nomination. My mother doesn't like her because she doesn't like her personality and the fact that she stood by Bill. My mother voted for Gore in 2000 and Bush in 2004, and tends to vote for the kind of personality and last-minute reasons that drive people who follow politics seriously crazy.

            •  in the meatosphere, in my experience (0+ / 0-)

              the only people that i have ever met that actually like hillary are 1) boomer-aged registered democrat professional women, and 2) members of the local democratic city and county committee. everyone else i've ever talked to, republicans, democrats, independents, greens, young and old, have ranged from indifference to disdain to outright burning hatred.

              but very few people that i have met actually like her.

              surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

              by wu ming on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 08:22:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  That's the thing about Dodd: (5+ / 0-)

      I can't tell if there's really a concerted strategy in his camp to just tell us what we want to hear, or if he's been saying what we want to hear since the race began everywhere he goes and the blogs are just the only places covering it.  If the latter's the case, then Tim Tagaris deserves a raise and Dodd deserves a new communications director.

      One more Justice and John McCain gets his wish.

      by JR on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 03:54:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I heard him on the Ed (7+ / 0-)

        Schultz show about a year ago saying essentially the same things he is now regarding torture, habeus and rendition. These things are important to him.

        And the fact that his dad was one of the Nuremberg prosecutors is one of the reasons that he knows how important our values are. He saw the value of using our values, at least the ones we claim tyo have, as a way to win the hearts an minds of our enemies.

  •  Thanks tunesmith (7+ / 0-)

    Your presentation is one of the best outlines of the candidates I have seen. Which means I agree with almost all of it. I lean Hillary today, but that may change.

  •  I'm Leaning Toward Dodd at the Moment (4+ / 0-)

    But if I had to pick one of the top 3 I'd pick Edwards . . .

    I also like Gore.

    Richardson is trying to negotiate with us . . .  But that flub at the Logo Forum bothers me.

    The candidate who I won't support unless nominated is Senator Clinton.

    Physicist Wolfgang Pauli upon reading a paper: "This isn't right, this isn't even wrong."

    by ChapiNation386 on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 03:22:06 PM PDT

  •  if I had to choose today... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    oysterface, blueyedace2, luckylizard

    I'd vote for Dodd on Round 1 of our precinct caucuses.  Either Dodd or Uncommitted.

    Then, when my choice fails to come anywhere close to 15%, I'll listen to the imprecations of supporters of the others before deciding what to do on Round 2.  Can't say what I'd do at that point, other than not switch to Clinton (or be silly with Gravel or Kucinich).

    I'll vote for Hillary if she's the nominee.  But not sooner.

    The way to win is not to move to the right wing; the way to win is to move to the right policy. -- Nameless Soldier

    by N in Seattle on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 03:32:23 PM PDT

  •  The front loading of the primaries (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    oysterface, blueyedace2

    makes my vote (in OH) irrelevant.

  •  If history is any indicator... (6+ / 0-)

    ...I won't really have a choice when it comes time to vote.  My choice is never still available.  This time it was Feingold (even though he is a little conservative for my taste).

    Most of the rest will be eliminated before I get a primary ballot, so I'll just wait.

  •  Fence sitter here. You sure nailed how I feel (8+ / 0-)

    about Richardson. Where is the guy who accomplishes so much?

  •  Unimpressed with the whole bunch (7+ / 0-)

    The Big Three, in particular, who eliminated themselves with their stance on endless U.S. involvement in Iraq. Gravel is a joke, Biden is a gasbag, Richardson is mistake-prone, and Dodd has been on Capitol Hill too long for my tastes.

    I might end up voting for Kucinich to thumb my nose at the party establishment.

    John McCain's Straight Talk Express runs on fossil fuels.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 03:39:33 PM PDT

    •  I think I gathered from your username... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueyedace2, luckylizard

      ...that Clinton was going to be a non-starter for you from the get-go.

      :-)

      One more Justice and John McCain gets his wish.

      by JR on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 03:56:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Endless involvement (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tunesmith

      Edwards was clear, he wanted to keep one brigade there to protect the embassy and humanitarian workers, that's it.  I'm really frustrated that people are not taking everything he said and just the first sentence.

      He was clear that he does not want to continue military/combat operations but that Hillary and Obama do.  He's been unfairly lumped together with the two.

      Mr. Ellinorianne for California State Senate!

      by Ellinorianne on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:14:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm on the fencepost (6+ / 0-)

    But I've warmed up to Chris Dodd significantly in the last few months.  Maybe he's been saying the right things, or maybe because I like an underdog, but whatever it is I could see myself voting for him.

    Bart: "So how do you know so much about economics?" McCain: "I pieced it together, mostly from sugar packets."

    by DH from MD on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 03:40:23 PM PDT

  •  I like your diary (7+ / 0-)

    and I agree with many of your observations.

    I've ruled out a few of the candidates simply because they haven't a snowball's chance in hell of winning the nomination. Of the front runners, I'm still undecided for some of the reasons you have mentioned.

  •  I have wondered for some time if (6+ / 0-)

    Clinton is playing a more conservative edge in her campagin to get elected. She has always been  a liberals liberal, until this election. Is it a game to get elected and then to be herself? Or has she changed?

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 03:46:25 PM PDT

  •  About Biden's intelligence. (11+ / 0-)

    He's clearly savvy in a lot of ways, but I think what might appear as wisdom or brilliant strategizing is given that facade by his passionate jabbing, slightly aggressive, colloquial speaking style which stands out in relief against the subject matter he's addressing, which by some weird alchemy connotes more credibility that it deserves. If that makes any sense.

    The Biden Plan (which as far as I can tell, comprises his entire presidential campaign) is not all that. From the stuff I've been reading lately, and I'm certainly a dumb mope, so big salt lick here, his "plan" is simplistic, misguided, clueless about what the Iraqi constitution says and the people themselves feel about "partition", and incredibly presumptuous in the face of strong anti-federalist sentiment in Iraq. So, while I find his shtick generally amusing and I actually do respect him a little, he's not a serious candidate, imo.

    Anyway. I enjoyed your diary. I'm liking Dodd, but Obama and Edwards have their charms too. And it's Gore who sings the fantasy siren song.

    I'm quite comfortable up here on the fence. It's a fetching split rail job that provides a broad view of the field before us.

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 03:49:20 PM PDT

  •  totally on the fence (10+ / 0-)

    when every candidate says something good, they usually follow it up with a boneheaded move or vote. If it were tomorrow, it would be Dodd, but that'll change.

    A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

    by dougymi on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 03:50:26 PM PDT

  •  I've still got a picket in an uncomfortable place (7+ / 0-)

    My problem is that I said back in 2002 that I wouldn't ever support in a contested primary anyone who voted to authorize the invasion of Iraq.  That really narrows my options.  But since I can't ever see myself voting for Kucinich (whom I've never taken very seriously as a candidate for an office that requires an effective administrator and communicator) or Gravel (even before the whole "look at me staring and chucking a rock in the water" thing), that leaves me with the gaffe-factory Richardson or Obama, who's starting to remind me of what I used to have for breakfast when I had the flu (namely, milk toast with weak tea).

    So right now I'm leaning Obama, but every time I see Dodd I think about reneging on my promise from '02.  If only Dodd hadn't screwed that one vote up, he'd probably be my first choice, but that was one huge effin' error in judgment that he, Clinton, Biden and Edwards all made.

    One more Justice and John McCain gets his wish.

    by JR on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 03:50:41 PM PDT

  •  I think your poll just made history (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    oysterface, bythesea

    This is the first time I've ever seen a daily kos poll where Edwards didn't win.  It looks like the non-hillary vote is finally starting to rally around the guy with a realistic chance of beating her: Obama

  •  On the fence as well. I started out as a soft (5+ / 0-)

    Obama supported, but I have not been impressed by his campaign. At the moment, I am leaning towards Dodd. HRC is far too DLC for my taste, and while I appreciate the peace and prosperity of the Clinton years, I do not want to re-live them either. I see Edwards as a bit too opportunistic for my taste, and I was not impressed by his 6 years in the senate. So, still on the fence, but leaning Dodd.

  •  I'm having a hard time caring (5+ / 0-)

    The country is politically and economically failing now, and we can't wait until January 2009 to start fixing it.  The primary is way too early.  (Plus, Howard Dean isn't running.)

    Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

    by Simplify on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 04:02:29 PM PDT

    •  To this day... (6+ / 0-)

      I swear Dr. Dean would've beaten W in '04, but I really like what he's doing as Chairman.

      The lesson of that history is that you must not despair, that if you are right, and you persist, things will change. -Howard Zinn

      by blueyedace2 on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 04:06:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I feel those two pulls, as well (5+ / 0-)

      It's too early, there's plenty of time left to make a decision, and we have to slog through MONTHS more of this crap. But at the same time, the damned place is burning up.

      Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

      by bumblebums on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 04:07:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm slighltly Edwards-Leaning... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      oysterface, Simplify, cpresley

      but any of the frontrunners might still convince me.

      I've not yet seen any who I truly believe could stick to a plan that would begin troop pullouts as soon as they took office, and take all the logistical time necessary, so that once it started, it was just as unstoppable as the runup to war...

      Because isn't the cold hard truth that they'd have to  say, No, we're beginning to leave Now.  Not next week, not after dinner.  Now. ...and make it stick through all the arguments and attempted deal making...

      The timetable would be affected by conditions on the ground...but I'm not seeing anyone I think will be able to even do just the beginning. None.

      I don't think they'll be able to even begin the end....based on the inertia that seems to hold the Democrats now...

      I'm voting (D) in the primary and the general, but I don't see it bringing about what we asked for*in '06.  Color me discouraged, but going nowhere near any vote that might help an (R)

      I'm smart. I'm watching. And I won't shut up.

      by imfunnytoo on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 05:01:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Pelosi needs to put (0+ / 0-)

      impeachment back on the table.

      Mr. Ellinorianne for California State Senate!

      by Ellinorianne on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:15:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, that is the keystone (0+ / 0-)

        of our system of government that is missing. So long as "off the table" is operative, the federal government does not represent us, because the President does not have to follow the law, and we are not really free.

        The flip side is that not enough citizens are demanding it of our Representatives. Any Rep who mouths "off the table" should fear losing his/her seat, at least in the primary, but that's not to be the case.

        Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

        by Simplify on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:49:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Woefully undecided. (6+ / 0-)

    But I'm down to Obama or Edwards, and still hoping Al comes to his senses. On the other side I so hope they nominate that ass Romney, because no matter who we run  we'd cream Mitty.

    The lesson of that history is that you must not despair, that if you are right, and you persist, things will change. -Howard Zinn

    by blueyedace2 on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 04:03:12 PM PDT

  •  I voted for Obama in your poll (6+ / 0-)

    I can appreciate your ambiguous feelings toward his campaign. What initially drew me to Obama was his ability to make policy statements not based upon what he perceived to be what I want to hear, but upon the best decision that he came up with after reviewing the facts. I found it particularly refreshing to hear answers that were not just  canned, politically calculated, loads of BS.

    Now-a-days I just don't get that refreshment, and to be frank, its been a disappointment.

    For example: It would be nice to hear Obama embark on a campaign to educate the public about the realities of ethanol. For him to publicly say in a debate that he wouldn't advocate to raise the national gas tax personifies the problem with an Obama nomination IMO.

    Hillary

    I find less and less reason to oppose her.

    You are not alone with this sentiment. My biggest fear with a HRC nomination, is Mike Huckabee. I just don't think she could beat him in a GE. The rest of the buffoons on the R-list, she would eat for breakfast.

    John Edwards

    I would be tickled pink with Edwards in the front of the democratic party's duck line. I very well may end up voting for his nomination. We shall see.

  •  I'm waiting for Gore... if he doesn't run... (7+ / 0-)

    I'll support the nominee. I like John Edwards.

    "I still think politics is about who's getting screwed and who's doing the screwing." -Molly Ivins

    by texaseditor on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 04:18:02 PM PDT

    •  I love the (0+ / 0-)

      Ivins quote.  I'm not holding my breath for Gore and I'm a little bit peeved, he's been too coy and I wish he would have either entered sooner or been more firm about his plans not to run.

      Mr. Ellinorianne for California State Senate!

      by Ellinorianne on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:17:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Confused (6+ / 0-)

    I'm having a really hard time deciding.  The candidates are almost all fine, but is Edwards tough enough to make it through the general election onslaught, Obama's campaign isn't good enough to make it through the general, Clinton is both tough enough and her campaign is strong, but there is that Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton thing which isn't totally healthy, Dodd is great but can a New England liberal win, Richardson is too undisciplined, Biden is too much of everything that is wrong with the Senate, Kucinich is Kucinich, and Gravel is nuts. At heart I'm a Gore person, but he isn't running. Last week I was 90% Clinton, but now I'm having second thoughts.  Oh, dear.

  •  I support Obama (5+ / 0-)

    but admit I have grown to like Hillary more than I ever would have thought I could.  I will not vote for her in the primaries, but I won't have to hold my nose too much if she is the nominee in the general.  I like Edwards, but have always had doubts about how far he would make it.  He may still be the nominee, but that's looking less likely to me now.  Nevertheless a surprise candidate (like Dodd) or a "newcomer" like Gore could always shake things up and that would be fine with me.   We'll see soon enough I suppose.

    Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -6.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.67

    by bythesea on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 04:36:14 PM PDT

  •  Can't describe what I'm looking for (4+ / 0-)

    There are elements of each of them that are "attractive."  I usually save Hillary for the last, but I'll jump in first this time.  She doesn't have enough of the special something I crave to overcome my Bush-Clinton fatigue.  I also tend to rebel when I feel like something is being rammed down my throat and that's what the MSM is doing.  I don't want a coronation from one of our royal families.  

    I had high hopes for Obama and he may yet live up to them.  After a dynamite beginning he has settled into a same old, same old type of campaign which is disappointing.  He let Hillary bait him and it took him away from the inspirational things that made people sit up and take notice.

    I get really angry when people attack Edwards for being rich.  For heaven's sake, he is the epitome of the American Dream.  Born poor, he worked hard and is successful.  For that he is picked at relentlessly and it makes no sense to me.  I could easily vote for him...

    Biden is a classic.  I like his plainspoken style.  Of course, that's what also gets him in trouble, but I don't feel like I have to guess what he's thinking.  I think his ideas for a federation in Iraq are worth a look and might even work.  At this point, I don't think we have much to lose by giving it a try.

    I get the feeling that Richardson is much more comfortable in small gatherings, negotiations, etc.  I respect what he has done but I don't see him as president.  He's the kind of guy who needs to chew on things for awhile and is not comfortable with spontaneity.  

    I am looking more at Dodd.  It appears that he is most in line with how I feel about issues, but there is something about him that puts me off.  Can't explain it and I'm trying to overcome it.

    Kucinich and Gravel keep the others honest, keep important issues in the discussion.  I don't think either is presidential material but I believe their participation is valuable to the general debate.

    I hope I didn't leave anyone out.  

    I will add one thing:  I worry about Huckabee.  If he ever gets traction, we may be in for more than we bargained for.  I keep a very close eye on him.

    -7.62, -7.28 "We told the truth. We obeyed the law. We kept the peace." - Walter Mondale

    by luckylizard on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 04:45:57 PM PDT

    •  Edwards' bind about his wealth ... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tunesmith, oysterface, ChiGirl88, vcmvo2

      Is that there's a bit of raw edge to his populism. He really should be able to bat his personal wealth out of the park with the American Dream theme - "But I believe in giving something back for the opportunities I have had, and I believe that everyone should have those opportunities." Bill Clinton would have batted that into orbit.

      The trouble is, I suspect, that his rhetoric verges on saying that everyone with money is a corporate whore and crook. He just can't have it both ways.

      The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

      by al Fubar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 05:19:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am no good (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        al Fubar, oysterface

        at framing issues or dealing with the public, so I'm not sure how it could/should be done.  If he were getting any traction in the media, there would be someone there doing a little human interest story on his rise from poverty, or at least mentioning it once in awhile.  Instead we get the never-ending hair thing.

        I don't have an answer but there ought to be someone in the campaign who could help him get this out there.  

        -7.62, -7.28 "We told the truth. We obeyed the law. We kept the peace." - Walter Mondale

        by luckylizard on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 05:25:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  He needs more than ... (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          tunesmith, luckylizard, Ellinorianne

          Son of a mill worker. He needs to be able to say why it's okay for him to get a $400 haircut, if he wants to get one and can afford to pay the barber. Americans are not happy about the abuse of power in this country on behalf of wealthy interests, but they're not against people having money. They'd love to have some themselves.

          That is why I'm saying that Edwards' populism is too raw for his own good - he really can't imply that all wealth is crooked without calling his own wealth into question. Does he really think that people out there distinguish high power lawyers from lobbyists?

          If you have money and like to flaunt it - which Edwards does, and Americans don't mind at all - you have to run on noblesse oblige. But that means admitting that they're not all a pack of thieves.

          The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

          by al Fubar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 05:43:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I have no problems with Edwards' wealth (0+ / 0-)

        although I think the Republicans are going to push this to the edge. Edwards was also a personal injury lawyer which infuriates the CEO's and the medical profession.  So he has a few big hills to climb also.

        Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

        by hairspray on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 05:33:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  that's a great point (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        al Fubar, jxg, vcmvo2

        I've wondered a lot why he doesn't do the Bill Clinton thing - how Bill accentuates his wealth as being a beneficiary, and using it as credibility in asking for raising his own taxes.  This raw edge of Edwards' populism, I think it's the part where he might be a little desperate.  He really doesn't need to do that and I hope he gets over it.

        •  I think it's crippled him ... (0+ / 0-)

          Partly because it is not unrelated to his fundraising problem. It's easier to get donations from the working girls if you call 'em ladies of the evening than if you call 'em whores.

          Fundamentally I think Edwards' message is a very important one - the division of wealth and poverty in this society, and the squeeze of the middle class, is the social equivalent of global warming, a building catastrophe if unchecked.

          What he should have been saying all along is something like, "Nobody owes me a $400 haircut, and no one should be ashamed because they go to Supercuts. But we do owe every American access to health care ..." and so on. It's awfully late for him to deliver that message now.

          If Obama had been out there delivering a cooler, more cerebral version of that message - in contrast to the Naderoid crap that the left buys into these days - Hillary would have had a real run for her money with me. And I don't think I'm the only one.

          But to paraphrase a major league asshole, you go to elections with the candidates you've got, not the ones you wish you had.

          The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

          by al Fubar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 06:42:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's my big Edwards problem (0+ / 0-)

            If he can't get this behind him in the primary, what will he do when the Republicans come after him?  I just don't think he is tough enough.  You need a bit of a street fighter edge to beat these Rethugs, and he doesn't seem to have it. Obama doesn't have it either. Clinton - funny to say, but she seems to be the toughest one in the bunch, which is why last week I was 90% of the way there.    

            •  It's odd about Obama ... (0+ / 0-)

              I just don't see how someone can come up from Chicago without knowing how to play by Chicago rules.

              Hillary is a Chicagoland girl, and every bit as tough as the Arkie junkyard Big Dog she is married to. You won't catch her bringing a knife to a gunfight. She'll bring a fucking missile.

              The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

              by al Fubar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 07:19:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Theory (0+ / 0-)

              I think the majority of Gore supporters who are waiting on the sidelines would be Edwards supporters.  But just a thought.

              And as Kos pointed out, he's waiting to see if Edwards can raise the money.  Well if everyone is waiting to see if he can raise money before they give him money, then how is that hurting him as well?

              Mr. Ellinorianne for California State Senate!

              by Ellinorianne on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:20:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  It's too much of a pain in the ass to sit there (4+ / 0-)

    so I keep climbing on and off.

    Have not decided between:

    Clinton: I'll probably end up voting for her. I don't trust her at all to represent my interests, but I think she's somewhat rational; her reasons for betraying me will probably make sense. Her foreign policy is appalling, but that's more or less a given if you want to be elected in this country. But what she really offers is an incredible discipline, an ability and willingness to fight, and the vindictiveness to fight dirty. I believe she offers the best chance of winning, and getting screwed by her most of the time is better than getting screwed by a Republican all of the time.

    Dodd: He's sensible. I've donated to him. I like a lot of his stances. I like that he's willing to vote against Lieberman's hysterics. He isn't a serious candidate. If I end up voting for him, it will be as a protest only.

    Obama: He's an effective speaker. I don't like his health care policy. I don't like his energy policy. I don't like his "new kind of politics." I think his foreign policy is even worse than Clinton's, grounded not in any sort of realist principle but in foggy humanitarian idiocy. His campaign doesn't seem to have much direction. He really reminds me a great deal of Jimmy Carter, when you get down to it. But, most importantly of all, I think he offers the second-best chance of actually winning, since he might be able to get certain conservative and libertarian voters to support him.

    Would not vote for:

    Richardson: He might be a decent president, but his campaign is awful. I can't fathom why he seems to think that doing a Reagan/Bush impersonation will help him win the Democratic primary in 2008.

    Biden: A consummate jackass and a fascist. If there's a difference between him and Rudy Giuliani, I'm not entirely sure it doesn't favor Giuliani.

    Kucinich: He's honest about what he believes, and that's one of his major problems.

    Edwards: He has his own setting on my bullshit meter, but even if that weren't an issue I simply don't agree with him on far too many issues. And, I'll be honest enough to admit that I don't want to vote for a southerner.

    •  It's very strange ... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jxg, masslib

      I'll probably end up voting for her. I don't trust her at all to represent my interests, but I think she's somewhat rational; her reasons for betraying me will probably make sense. Her foreign policy is appalling, but that's more or less a given if you want to be elected in this country. But what she really offers is an incredible discipline, an ability and willingness to fight, and the vindictiveness to fight dirty. I believe she offers the best chance of winning, and getting screwed by her most of the time is better than getting screwed by a Republican all of the time.

      I'm a Hillary supporter, and while I don't agree with this, I know exactly what you are saying. Perhaps I've just absorbed a semitragic, semicomic sense of political reality (see my sig!), so that in the real world I believe this is just about as good as it gets.

      The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

      by al Fubar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 05:23:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Better the devil you know and all that (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        al Fubar

        Her husband's presidency was very far from bad; while he didn't do anything profound to move the country forward, I very much admire that he did absolutely everything he could to clean up the wrong-headed idiocy and outright sabotage the Reaganites left behind. I think she would be at least as capable an administrator. And where her policy positions simply differ from mine, I feel that I'm prepared for that.

        Obama I just don't have a feeling for. He could be a transformative president, but, the hype and bullshit aside, I don't have any solid reason to believe he will be. And I don't know where his policy positions are going to differ from mine, which leaves me a lot more vulnerable than I'd like to being stabbed in the back.

  •  Al Gore Please !!! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    N in Seattle, oysterface, vcmvo2

    I am convinced that Al Gore is going to get into this race...and that most likely, he will announce sometime between October 13th and (hopefully) October 23rd !!

    I just spent over 5.5 hours (while ill with a cold/flu) standing on the street in "red" Northwest Michigan, collecting signatures to get Al Gore's name on the Michigan primary ballot (We need to collect 12,396 valid signatures by the October 23rd filing deadline...!!!)

    I managed to collect about 67 signatures today, and this was w/o any publicity to help me (i.e., I had no tee-shirt or Gore pin or anything...).

    Tomorrow, I should be given a Gore tee-shirt and other publicity items, and am hoping that this will help increase the number of people I can find to sign !!!

    If anyone is interested in helping to DRAFT GORE, please visit america for gore.

    To specifically help us with the effort in Michigan (which has the earliest filing deadline in the country - and we REALLY need more help !!), please see my earlier diary here

  •  Discussion on the merits (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    oysterface, cpresley

    is a great idea. I never make my mind up until I actually vote. I like Obama, Richardson, Edwareds, and Kuncinich in that order.

    Obama has the rhetoric and the charisma to truly lead the nation. This is a big selling point to me.

    Richardson has the ability to get things done. He has shown this many different times and in many different ways.

    To me an Obama / Richardson team would be best leading the executive branch. Obama could bring the people and Richardson could get it done.

    Edwards is the little train that could. He just keeps plugging away and has great speaking ability, though not as good as Obama.

    Kucinich is the idealist and is most frequently right. There is a heavy burden to carry, being right.

    And then there is Hillary. Hillary is best at turning negatives into positives. People say polarizing and she says experience. People worry about defense so she claims to know more about defense. She does this and yet says very little different than any of her competitors. She adds little to conversation that is original. Yes I dislike Hillary, but I am not so anti-Hillary that I wouldn't vote for ahead of Biden, Dodd, or Gravel.

    Biden puts people to sleep. Gravel is the court clown, I meant jester. And Dodd has reached his level of competence.

    Practice tolerance, kindness and charity.

    by LWelsch on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 04:58:59 PM PDT

  •  Excellent diary ... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tunesmith, oysterface, cpresley, bythesea

    And truer words never spoken:

    No one will be able to take her down by attacking her (something Obama and Edwards should take to heart).  The way to beat her is to construct a message/narrative that has enough momentum to overtake her under its own power.

    At least in the candidate diaries here. I'm a Hillarista, but for one of the others to win they have to convince people that they're better than Hillary. She doesn't feel the love from the netroots, but in the broad party out there the attack lines go nowhere.

    The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

    by al Fubar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 04:59:23 PM PDT

  •  Good, thoughtful diary, thanks! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tunesmith

    It's a pleasure to see some analysis as a change from the sometimes mindless boosterism of the candidate diaries, and even more from the nasty thread-hijacking and childish antics of the True Believers.

    I voted Edwards, and if I had to vote for real tomorrow it'd probably be for him, but I agree with many of your misgivings about his campaign. The more time has gone on the less I'm leaning towards anyone.

    Obama's a knockout as a candidate, he positively twinkles onstage. But I hesitate to sign on to his "unity" message just yet. I'd love a return to a really unified country, or at least one where we can do politics without being forced to rip out our opponents' windpipes, but I fear that the country has been pushed so far to the right that some spirited pushing back will be necessary before we can extend any olive branches in a rightward direction. OTOH, I think he really is the closet liberal you suspect Clinton of being.

    Clinton turns me into the Dutiful Dem. If she wins the nomination I'll work as hard for her as I would for anyone else, but of all the plausible candidates she is my last choice, by quite a bit. If she really is the closet liberal you think she is, I don't expect that Hillary to emerge until well into a second term. I think she's been married to a corporatist for too long a time.

    I also like Dodd's statements almost every time I hear him, but I think he's running for a cabinet post. If my primary vote were meaningless, and it might be, I'd consider him as a symbolic gesture.

    The thing that upsets me most about being undecided is that I am more than willing to work, and work hard, for the candidate of my choice, if only in an attempt to head off Clinton's growing inevitability. I almost wish that Edwards would withdraw and endorse Obama, to that end. And of course there's still that tiny irrational part of me, pining for Al Gore.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

    by sidnora on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 05:58:31 PM PDT

  •  Good summary of candidates (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tunesmith

    Glad I'm not the only fence-sitter.

    I was an enormous Edwards fan in 2004, but this time he's just not winning me over, seems more grasping now.

    I was crazy for Obama - until he started talking, that is. Not ready yet.

    I was pretty opposed to Clinton until lately, mostly because I didn't want to see the establishment of a two-family monarchy. Now, I can see her running the country and I'm ok with it.

    And Kucinich? Pfff, I'll probably get flamed by his cult, but if the choice were between him and a Republican, well ... I'll leave at I really don't like the guy at all.

  •  i'm holding out for gore (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tunesmith

    if he makes it explicit that he is out of the race, then i'll have some hard thinking to do. at the moment i'm not impessed by any of the folks running, although i like gravel's visceral response to the war and democratic compliance in its perpetuation  (if not so much his libertarian economics).

    i guess a lot will come down to how the race looks on feb 5th, and how the candidates develop between now and then.

    but mostly i wish gore would save me from having to do all that.

    surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

    by wu ming on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 08:13:06 PM PDT

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