Comprehensive Immigration Reform (Update)

Just a short reminder for those interested in IMMIGRATION REFORM. Tomorrow, Thursday 09/06/2007 at 1:00 PM there is a scheduled hearings at the Rayburn House Office Building. The House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Citizenship, Refugees, Border Security, and International Law will have the Hearing on H.R. 1645, the "Security Through Regularized Immigration and a Vibrant Economy Act of 2007 (STRIVE Act)". Included in the Strive Act is the Dream Act, AgJobs, and a comprehensive provision for those who have been here long enough and stayed out of trouble to become conditional legal residents.

Sorry the Diary is so short, but I did post a longer one last week.

If you want to watch and listen to the hearing tomorrow afternoon go to the link and then
Click on September 6 or the Immigration Subcommittee box and then click on "view live webcast". Good luck.

There will only be comprehensive immigration reform if those that support it let Congress know that the majority wants reform now.Contact your Congressman and your Senator. Hopefully, this hearing will lead to a fair and humane immigration reform bill ASAP.

Update to my Update.
I know that immigration reform is not very popular with many here. And most of the resistence is not because of Racism here. But there are undertones of "those Mexicans" that can seem to be at least condescending. And there seems to be strong support for doing nothing (except enforcement) about the 12 million undocumented immigrants here. Take a look at Jon Garrido's Diary about 'How Racism Killed Immigration Reform'. Very enlightening.

•  Tip Jar

  If you want more and better "Immigration Reform" discussion, please tip generously.

  by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 12:17:18 PM PDT

  •  Sorry to jump to the top here

    But after reading the comments here I see most are confussing STRIVE with the failed Senate "Grand Compromise" legislation from last June....so the arguements made pro and against here make no real sense.

    There is a reason the Senate bill failed...it sucked ...it couldn't even garner the support of major Latino groups, the AILA and even the SIEU.

    While Lou, Rush and O'Lielly will have all believe the Senate bill failed because of the "grassroots efforts" of the right- wing ...it really failed because NOBODY WANTED IT PASSED!!!

    BUT ... to argue that STRIVE and the Grand Compromise are the same is wrong. STRIVE is also a highly flawed bill, but nowhere near as toxic for both US workers and immigrants. The Grand Compromicse was nothing more than a corporate wet dream ( and BOB and his NoSlaves friends are rioght about that).

    STRIVE needs a lot of work, and that work may never be done ...but it is a better jumping-off point than the Senate bill EVER was.  ...Kill or limit the Guest worker provisions, take out SKIL, do some work on quotas and backlog elimination, firm up the path to citizenship and worker protections, and make sure that verificattion and future enforcement can take place ...and we MIGHT be able to put together something even the Dem hardliners can get behind    

    by Duke1676 on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 04:47:16 PM PDT

    •  Thank you for the clarification.

      But I guess, although it is very flawed is a way to get the 12 million into the system. After they're in the system maybe I'm hopeful they will change the law and make it better. Doing nothing is not an option. Let's work to make the law better.

      by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 04:56:24 PM PDT

      •  As I remember

        After they're in the system maybe I'm hopeful they will change the law and make it better

        Bill Clinton, Bill Richardson, and Ted Kennedy said effectively the same thing about NAFTA.

        If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

        by superscalar on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:03:11 PM PDT

        •  But here we're dealing with 12 million human

          beings. Doing nothing is not the best thing for America. What is you proposal for comprehensive immigration reform?

          by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:08:04 PM PDT

          •  Americans are human

            BTW, in case you hadn't noticed, all of the humans on the face of this earth are surprise HUMAN!  

            You act like you're talking about stray cats here and one must rescue them and feed them.  Somehow I think human beings are perfectly capable of making demands from their own government...some of them can even run for office, shocking but true.

            by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:19:09 PM PDT

            •  What's more?

              all of the humans on the face of this earth are surprise HUMAN!

              • Surprise -- most of them are 'workers'.
              • Surprise -- most of them are 'just trying to feed their families'.

              If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

              by superscalar on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:26:57 PM PDT

            •  We agree on that. All humans are human.

              by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:48:42 PM PDT

      •  The changes MUST come before

        the legislation passes. ...once it's done, it's done ...and any flaws or inequities will remain and it'll be 1986 all over again and we'll be arguing these same arguments 5, 10, 15 years down the road.

        It's time to get this RIGHT...once and for all.

        by Duke1676 on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:07:30 PM PDT

    •  the AILA

      come on, they loved it...after all they helped write that turd.  

      I'm not so sure on the "Z" visa we need to read the latest, little bastards keep rewriting the same damn thing and putting it into amendments.

      I hear Specter is once again writing another one...and of course H-1B Visa clause is 1st up in the text!

      There is a new corporate push coming right as us to get H-1B guest worker Visa increased passed...it's disgusting and they are claiming that the illegal question hurt them getting their guest worker Visas so they are trying various strategies..
      I don't think any "must pass" legislation did not have the SKIL Bill introduced as an amendment.

      I haven't read the latest STRIVE.

      by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:17:19 PM PDT

      •  wrong

        not the Grand Compromise ....that one they opposed ...trust me....I linked to all their stuff when this was going down and they definately OPPOSED it's final passage.

        by Duke1676 on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:33:49 PM PDT

        •  probably not Grisby & Cohen!

          Look those guys make their living off of guest worker Visas if you say so but probably because of that motivation.  I don't trust them and they piss me off too because engineering requires as much brains and education as law...they make $250, $300 an hour figuring out how to undermine that occupation!

          by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:35:55 PM PDT

          •  if those are the guys from the video

            I'd bet you were right.

            But by and large none of the tradional "immigrant activists" got behind the Senate bill in the end. Some played "wait and see" for a while ...and they waited...and they saw ...and what they saw was a giant turd shat out the ass of corporate America.

            by Duke1676 on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:44:29 PM PDT

•  OPPOSE STRIVE ACT

  This bill is loaded, loaded with labor arbitraging guest worker Visas, including the most notorious H-1B!  This is a corporate sponsored lobbyist written bill and any Progressive knows it.  Pretty amazing some "person" is trying to promote this Corporate cheap labor lobby turd.

  (and it has little to do with any pathway to citizenship, it's really targeting American professional workers first and foremost).

  by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 12:54:51 PM PDT

  •  It's not a good bill. But given that there is so

    much opposition to doing anything, the situation has become desperate. What do we do about the 12 million undocumented immigrants and their families? To do nothing is a terrible thing. And piecemeal legislation will be confusing. Seeing as there is so much resistance to comprehensive immigration reform, a compromise has to be reached. Of course business, agricultural and cultural conservatives interests have to be taken into consideration.

    What is the solution of those that say do nothing? Just keep on squeezing the undocumented. Believe me, that will get ugly.

    Feel free to lobby congress, telling them you're against the guest worker program, or anything else you don't like. But let's push for something that will be a start to fixing the situation.

    Please feel free to offer your solution.

    by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:15:19 PM PDT

    •  that's lame

      I'm sorry I strongly suspect you of being a troll plus I've never heard of you.  That's just so lame to promote a corporate written bill claiming it's "better than nothing".  It has little to do with illegals and everything to do with labor arbitraging US workers...which is the primary target on this particular bill.  Even the illegals advocates on here know this.

      by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:17:47 PM PDT

      •  Have you read the bill?

        You say it has little to do with illegals.

        If someone has lived in the U.S. for a sufficient period of time and has good character they (and their families) would qualify to become conditionally legal.

        Under the Dream Act kids who came before thier 16th birthday and graduated from high school would become legalized.

        Under AgJobs the farm workers (and their families) that are important for U.S. agriculture would become eligible to become documented.

        Spouses of undocumented immigrants that entered without inspection would qualify to legalize.

        And many more would benefit.

        I don't like the parts of the bill that would make in harder to petition for family members. I don't like the large about of guest workers in the bill. I don't think we need it. But those were put on to appease the cultural conservatives and business.

        You just criticize. What is your solution? Do nothing. If you have an alternative that has a chance of passing, I'm all ears.

        by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:44:20 PM PDT

        •  yes I have

          I read them all and duke1676 and I deeply analyzed some of them.

          No, they don't have much to do with the illegals.  We determined the "Z" visa means they will never get citizenship status actually.  It's a trojan horse for the illegals side.  

          It's just a ploy to labor arbitrage Americans.

          And as I've said, either you are incredibly naive or you are a corporate promoter because of the real illegals advocates on here they all know these bills are Corporate written cheap labor bills.

          by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 02:00:10 PM PDT

          •  Maybe I misunderstood. I always thought the

            Z visa gave a path to citizenship eventually. Maybe duke1676 might enlighten us on that. He's a voice here I respect, especially on the immigration reform issue.

            And why are you so against the Dream Act?

            by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 02:09:17 PM PDT

            •  it's hidden

              which is why people need to study these bills.  It's a temporary visa which is permanent, yet the requirements to switch to a green card plus the "Skills based" merit system amount to never qualifying.  It's a bogus bill designed to flood the US labor market with cheap foreign labor in order to further erode worker rights, wages and advance the great WTO, GATS mode 4 "trading of people as commodities" forced migration agenda.

              We figured out that India and China would be #1 with the possibility of UK to be most favored.  Since there is already a glut of PhDs in the US and STEM professionals are #1 targets for labor arbitrage, with both India and China demanding more offshore outsourcing and insourcing and calling all of this "trade".....this is a real, very valid labor issue...and few are seeing the big global labor arbitrage picture.  

              That is why you have economists being on the "no amnesty" side because behind this buzz word rallying cry is a whole lot of other agenda items to stop global labor arbitrage.  

              I've suggested to the "amnesty" advocates that people calm down, and from the grassroots/netroots hammer out our own bill for anything is better than what the US Chamber of Commerce is going to present....and my understanding of La Raza is that has become almost a corporate front group.  

              But, trying to claim "oh poor illegals" and "compassion" is bogus.  there is another guy on here promoting advancing S. of the border nation's own economies so they don't leave and get exploited as a solution.  I think that is extremely valid and why you'll see "no amnesty" Progressives attack NAFTA and CAFTA-DR especially for it's all tied together.

              by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 02:20:19 PM PDT

            •   while STRIVE has a lot of problems

              the Z visas and merit system were not included in this bill, but rather were added to it when it was used as the model for the Senate bill. I think Bob might be confusing the two ...but that said, STRIVE is FAR from good legislation.

              I can't check the bill right now (I'm on dial-up) but if memory serves me well, one of the biggest problems with STRIVE was that it shifted the criminality of being "illegal" from "illegal presence" to "illegal entry". Meaning that simply being in the country without proper documentation would no longer disqualify one from applying to normalize their status.

              BUT...if you "entered illegally" you could not apply. This in essence would allow those on visa overstays (nearly half of all undocumented) to apply for "amnesty". While those who crossed the southern border illegally, (ie. Mexicans and Central Americans) would not be eligible for status normalization.

              Additionally STRIVE contained much of the punitive language of last years house bill HR4437.

              Plus there was in this bill again a large expansion of guest worker programs with no substantive changes made to quotas and restrictions for legal immigration. ...Again, as in the other comprehensive bills, creating a shift from permanent legal immigration to temporary workers to be used at business's discretion with little or no protections.

              It is the expansion of the guest worker programs, the favoring of high skilled workers and those with visa overstays, and the elimination of those who crossed the southern border improperly from "amnesty programs" that I found most troubling and certainly far too business friendly and worker unfriendly.

              (I need to check Title V and VI of the bill when I get home to see the specifics of the path to citizenship for guest workers, and the rest of the  provisions of the bill ...butI remember that it had many flaws that needed SERIOUS REVISION before it could ever be considered as meaningful legislation)

              by Duke1676 on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 03:42:19 PM PDT

              •  Could you please check and maybe do a Diary

                when you have a chance. I think it would be fascinating, expecially since congress will be discussing the Strive Act Tomorrow.

                And my understanding was that those who crossed without inspection would also qualify for a Z visa. And only if they had a deportation order or a bad criminal record would they be disqualified.

                by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 04:08:09 PM PDT

                •  Anything to do w/Z visas was in the Senate

                  Bill that Kennedy, Kyl and Bush put together.

                  STRIVE didn't have the Z Visas or the Merit point system ...they were introduced in  the Senate Bill.

                  STRIVE was originally introduced in the House, but quickly shelved when the Whitehouse, Kennedy and Kyl started to but together the "Grand Compromise" bill that died last june.

                  STRIVE was the first attempt to incorperate the strict enforcement from last years HR4437, with a large guestworker program and a limited "amnesty" in hopes that it could hit the "sweet spot" that would garner enough Republican support. It had the benchmarks of "border security" before any normalization of status for the 12mil could occur, and a number of other concession to the right-wing and business interests that had been propossed both last year in the Senate and the House.

                  I think many here are confussing STRIVE with the failed Senate Bill from last spring ...they are very much the same in spirit...but had many differences....Z Visas and merit points being one of them.

                  by Duke1676 on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 04:26:32 PM PDT

                  •  It gets confusing when you have Senate versions

                    and House versions. It's hard to make sense at all. and then come the amendments.

                    I hope the Strive Act that will be discussed in the House tomorrow has a path towards citizenship for those who entered with and without inspection. Otherwise, it leaves millions of people in limbo still.

                    by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 04:34:54 PM PDT

                •  You may want actually read a summary

                  Of that legislation you are supporting.

                  Employment-Based Immigration: Increases employment-based immigrant visas from 140,000 to 290,000 per fiscal year. The 290,000 ceiling for employment-based immigrant visas is redistributed among the employment-based immigrant visa categories and certain modifications are made to current categories. Unused employment-based immigrant visas from previous fiscal years are recaptured and made available for employment-based immigrant visas for future fiscal years. Visas issued to spouses and children after October 1, 2004 under the employment-based category will no longer be counted against the cap. No more than 800,000 visas may be issued to employment-based spouses and children during any fiscal year. Per Country Limits: Makes slight increases to the per-country limits for family and employment based visas.  

                  H-1B Visa Program: Increases the cap on H-1B visas to 115,000 (which can be increased in a subsequent year if the cap is reached during a given fiscal year, not to exceed 180,000) and exempts from this cap certain individuals who have earned an advanced degree in science, technology, engineering, or math in the United States.

                  Increased Labor Law Enforcement: Adds 2,000 Department of Labor investigators dedicated to enforcing this title. Requires the Department of Labor to create regulations for processing complaints relating to violations of the H-2C program by an aggrieved worker. The Labor Secretary may impose administrative remedies and penalties upon finding a violation relating to H-2C employers or contractors.

                  I put th 'Increased Labor Law Enforcement' enforcement blurb in this post because it is just so much more laughable than the rest of this tripe. I have lost count of the number of times now that the DOL has refused to investigate charges of abuse within the eight existing guest worker programs.

                  The answer truly can only be to:

                  • Make all of the people currently in the country illegally legal
                  • Add a new guest worker program
                  • Add 2,000 Department of Labor investigators 'dedicated to enforcing this title'

                  Yep, this'll 'fix' it.

                  By the way, about 50% of all H1B visas are used by high tech firms, and this 'bill' will increase the cap from 65,000 to 115,000 automatically. Do you have any idea how many new jobs were created in high technology last year?

                  If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                  by superscalar on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 04:53:35 PM PDT

                  •  The main issure for me is bringing the

                    undocumented into the system. The strive act aims to do that. It's got lots of flaws, but something has to be done besides enforcement only. If you have ideas about how to make the law better I'd like to hear them.

                    Doing nothing but enforcement is not a viable option.

                    by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:02:56 PM PDT

                    •  You speak as if this were a goal unto itself

                      The main issure for me is bringing the undocumented into the system.

                      And not part of a larger goal -- this does not surprise me -- I just wonder why you would believe there is some critical mass of a constituency for your position?

                      If you have ideas about how to make the law better I'd like to hear them.

                      What 'law' is that you are talking about here, and 'better' -- better often means better for some but not necessarily better for all.

                      If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                      by superscalar on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:09:27 PM PDT

                      •  I think there are 12 million people whose lives

                        would be better, and their families lives as well. Maybe you could double that if you included families. And there are many here who believe in a "compasionate path to citizenship".

                        And I don't believe there is a critical mass of voters for my position. Therefore, compromise is needed and lobbying. The law wasn't passed because the Congress received 10 letters, phone call, emails against for every one in favor.

                        I'm hoping for the best, most compasionate law possible, with the fewest people hurt and the most people benefitted. There's going to be lots of bad stuff in the law, and some stuff that's bad for some and good for others. That's the nature of the political process.

                        There is hardly ever a law that is good for everyone. Let's all get behind making the law the best law posible.

                        by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:29:09 PM PDT

        •  The can only be eligible

          Under the Dream Act kids who came before thier 16th birthday and graduated from high school would become legalized.

          If one meets the requirements of the Dream Act on the day the bill is signed. In other words it does nothing for those who may fit the requirements of the bill a year from now.

          If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

          by superscalar on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 03:53:55 PM PDT

          •  What is your point? That unless a bill is perfect

            it's not worthwhile?

            by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 04:14:26 PM PDT

            •  My point is that both of these 'bills'

              Are bad legislation.

              If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

              by superscalar on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 04:21:09 PM PDT

      •  There is nothing trollish here...

        Compassion is an important issue in the immigration debate. For many of us compassion for people living and working and raising families here now is the most important issue.

        For those of us who think this way, we are forced to compromise with the business interests (and business includes small business and family farms) since the anti-business people insist on sounding like the far right.

        A bill that offers a compassionate path to citizenship for people that many of us care about is better than nothing.

        The question is whether we can even do better with a bill that has the compassion that we want, with provisions that would make you happier.

        It would be nice if you could respect our position without having a knee-jerk need to viciously attack any bill that offers compassion for immigrants.

        by Sentido on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:54:36 PM PDT

        •  sorry no

          there is absolutely nothing compassionate about the "Z" Visa frankly.  The whole thing is a joke because citizenship will be unattainable and for US citizens it's also extremely unfair.

          As I've said I've analyzed these bills with some of the real illegal advocates and while I come down hard on the "Americans 1st" US workers first and so on position, even from an amnesty position this bills sucks.  They will have almost no social mobility and never obtain citizenship status in a nutshell.

          So, where's the compassion in that, even if you are on the side of the illegals?

          by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 02:02:20 PM PDT

          •  Just out of curiosity,

            what is YOUR position on what should be done about the 12 million undocumented in the U.S.?

            Are you sure about that "citizenship will be unattainable"?

            My feeling is that most of those who take advantage of the "Z visa" will eventually become citizens.

            I get the feeling YOU'DE prefer to do nothing. Am I wrong?

            by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 02:29:24 PM PDT

            •  you're wrong

              on almost every post in this story.  Immigration policy is highly complex and is a major factor in labor economics.  I'd say I'm against people like you or diaries like this which post misinformation, have little knowledge of immigration policy, the history, the implementation of it, the labor economics of it, and so forth who espouse "stuff" that doesn't get anywhere in terms of crafting sane domestic solutions.

              by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:12:05 PM PDT

              •  If you're against people like me then give me

                good reasons. Which misinformation have I posted? If you accuse me I hope you can back your accusation up. If I make a mistake, I would like to have it pointed out. Then I won't make the same mistake in the future. I don't think I have little knowledge of immigration policy and history. If you think so, feel free to educate me.

                If what I propose doesn't get anywhere in terms of crafting sane domestic solutions then I welcome knowing what your solution is to the "undocumented immigrant" issue, or "comprehensive immigration reform" issue.

                by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:35:37 PM PDT

                •  I listed most of it

                  now you just reply with this absurd mentality that gets no where in discussing policy.  It's really boring.  and it's really old at this point.

                  by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:37:37 PM PDT

                  •  I've tried to respond to your many critisisms

                    but I asked you for what your comprehensive immigration solution is, and it seems you really don't have a solution. A do nothing policy is not what's best for America, in my opinion.

                    And for my benefit could you please list my "misinformation". You can disagree with my opinions, but if you say I'm spreading misinformation, I'd like to know where. And please back your opinions up with evidence and not just your "anti immigrant" opinions.

                    by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:45:08 PM PDT

                    •  I don't debate

                      with posters like you, it's a waste of time....and I already answered this repeatedly.

                      by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:48:48 PM PDT

                      •  You accused me off misinformation

                        and I didn't ask you to debate me. Just tell me what specific disinformation I posted. I think it's fair for me to request that in light of the accusation.

                        by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:55:13 PM PDT

        •  "Compassionate path to citizenship" I like that.

          I'll have to use those words sometime. That's what we need for those who are here and deserve it.

          by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 02:03:48 PM PDT

          •  Yet you don't advocate on behalf

            That's what we need for those who are here and deserve it.

            Of those 'who are here and deserve it'. You advocate, because you support the STRIVE Act, on behalf of everybody who just happens to have been in the country illegally before June 1, 2006, or may be able to buy or create the counterfeit papers neccesary to make that case.

            So, based upon your words and your support of the STRIVE Act, that person who came to this country illegally on April 29, 2006 is just as deserving in your eyes as that person who arrived on April 29, 1990, that person who may have come to this country illegally, but has paid taxes and filed taxes since 2004 is just as deserving as that person who came to this country illegally in 1990 and hasn't paid a cent in Federal Income Tax.

            What's more, you take it on faith that they are all equally deserving because you neither ask, nor do you demand, any proof that they in fact all equally deserving.

            If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:24:27 PM PDT

            •  No solution is perfect.

              I'm just looking for the best posible law. I'm not looking for a perfect law. And I don't think everyone is equally deserving. But I do believe we should be compasionate to those who deserve it.

              by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:38:20 PM PDT

    •  The DREAM Act and the STRIVE Act

      But let's push for something that will be a start to fixing the situation.

      'Fix' nothing, but for those whose only interest (and many with a personal, professional, or other vested interest) is the legal status of those currently in this country illegally the DREAM Act and the STRIVE Act are presented as a 'fix' because they address (parts of) what is most important to that contituency which is, again, the legal status of those currently in this country illegally.

      There is little interest for a 'fix' outside of this goal -- in other words, that represents the whole of the 'fix'. What we will get with this kind of 'fix' is the same thing that we got in 1986.

      What do we do about the 12 million undocumented immigrants and their families?

      What are you going to do about the next '12 million' that will come after you have made this '12 million' legal?

      Please feel free to offer your solution.

      If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 04:08:55 PM PDT

      •  First of all the, What was so bad about the 1986

        Amnesty? Second, I don't think it will be so easy for the next millions because the rules have changed and it will be much harder for new arrival to get jobs, etc.

        by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 04:13:00 PM PDT

•  I oppose all immigration "reform" bills...

  ...that are currently on the table. These are all corporate-laden bills that will help perpetuate a permanent underclass for corporate interests to exploit.

  Also, the names Dream Act and STRIVE Act smack of Orwellian/Bush doublespeak (like the Clear Skies Initiative).

  by lams712 on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:01:05 PM PDT

  •  my question is

    someone on here claiming to be an "advocate" of "immigrants" who is busy promoting corporate written cheap labor lobby bills that will destroy the US middle class....should we claim this person is a troll or not?  Very, very smelly, the various lobbyist groups poor in millions, seriously millions into their agenda and are notorious for getting their "press kits" written into the MSM.  It's completely possible they have hired some bloggers to do the same.  

    by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:03:51 PM PDT

    •  I'm not sure we should claim this person...

      ...is a troll, but his/her support of this "comprehensive immigration reform" is questionable to say the least.

      This "reform" is so bad that people on both the left and right have condemned it. It is interesting that Pres. Bush is pushing so hard for it, along with Sen. Kennedy. It's the type of "reform" only an entrenched Washington insider would love.

      by lams712 on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:11:32 PM PDT

      •  yeah

        even the real immigrant advocates who are known are here oppose these sorts of bills, so I'm highly suspect here and yes, this is most assuredly about targeting US workers for labor arbitrage, this bill is one of the worst.  

        by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:12:57 PM PDT

•  I oppose all anmesty

  I oppose all illegals having more rights than citizens...

  by chabuka on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:08:05 PM PDT

  •  Illegals do not have more (nor will they have

    more) rights than citizens. Where does that come from? They're human beings trying to do the best for themselves and their families.

    by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:19:54 PM PDT

    •  sorry

      there are many Dems who are "no amnesty" Dems and that's what this person thinks, end of message.

      but most assuredly whether one is for "amnesty o no", H-1B Professional guest worker Visas have NOTHING to do with it!  The bill is loaded with GUEST WORKER VISAS which do NOTHING but labor arbitrage US workers and create a two tier society for working America.

      Trying to claim this bill is for "immigrants" when you really mean illegal workers and to make matters worse promote a bill that is really about guest worker Visas, especially targeting U.S. professional workers..is obscene!

      by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:23:52 PM PDT

      •  What is your solution to the 12 million

        human beings that are here in America?

        And I can't talk about individual's situation, but there are lots of people in America who are totally frustrated about the current law.

        by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:51:05 PM PDT

        •  red herring

          promoting a corporate written cheap labor lobby bill and then trying to avoid the real issue by claiming what the solution is....well, the solution is NOT the STRIVE ACT.  

          The solution is NOT THE US CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.

          The solution is NOT THE AILA.

          If you want to get into hammering out a policy and solution from the Netroots, all sides, then post on a duke1676 thread and so on.  

          But, your diary is promoting a very, very, very bad bill and I know the ITAA, NASSCOM, Bill Gates, the US Chamber of Commerce, Bush Corporation and the lobbyist organization "Compete America" is currently trying to push through their H-1B, L-1 guest worker agenda, anyway they can.  

          and we stop them every time they do and that is a full time job.

          This bill is their bill.

          by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 02:07:35 PM PDT

          •  Our Bill would be based on compassion...

            People here who support this bill, although I don't think anyone thinks it is perfect, support it because it is more compassionate to undocumented immigrants than the status quo.

            I would far prefer if we could work on a bill that was more progressive and more compassionate, although sometimes it seems some people here prefer the status quo.

            But, If you want to join on on a working together on a better bill that includes both improving the lives or workers and providing a compassionate way for the people here now to become citizens... I would welcome it.

            by Sentido on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 04:41:10 PM PDT

            •  STRIVE will blow the caps off of the H1B program

              But, If you want to join on on a working together on a better bill that includes both improving the lives or workers

              And will create a new guest worker program when it has been proven repeatedly that this country cannot run the guest worker programs it has already.

              As an electrical engineer, as a 'worker', given that this 'bill' will simply import more cheaper labor, how exactly is it improving my life?

              If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

              by superscalar on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 04:58:29 PM PDT

              •  Yes... but can we work together...

                You are missing my main point.

                Compassion for undocumented immigrants is very important for me.

                I would be very happy to work together with people like you to get a bill that both of us could be happy with. My side is not the one preventing a coalition from forming.

                The moderate pro-business folk (who in reality represent small business and family farms and aren't the devil some people make them out to be) are being very reasonable.

                It is frustrating to me that people on the left, who I feel I should be able to work with, have become such hardliners on immigration.

                Let's figure out a way to work together on both of our concerns.

                by Sentido on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:18:10 PM PDT

                •  that's true

                  but we need to get the rhetoric out from people like this poster and really, really get down to causes, elements and also agree on not only goals but on policy.  I'm game, I actually am only concerned with global labor arbitrage, focus on US workers and then extreme focus on professional workers...but because they dump that agenda into these bills, I've learned a lot on the "illegal" question.  I think it's possible, I think there are people who will accept or agree with "a little amnesty" too, but I think it's more on a case by case basis.  We get these "all or nothing" proposals from corporate America and advocacy groups that are just nuts...isn't a fair proposal in the lot.
                  I'll tell ya who I trust to write up good policy are Bernie Sanders ("amnesty") and Peter DeFazio (no amnesty)...they are both Progressives, put US workers first and understand the issues on both sides of the coin, coming from a Pro worker position.  

                  by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:42:38 PM PDT

          •  asdf

            Bush Corporation and the lobbyist organization "Compete America" is currently trying to push through their H-1B, L-1 guest worker agenda, anyway they can.  

            and we stop them every time they do and that is a full time job.

            But it's like a game of wack-a-mole.

            You work to kill an immigration bill, and the SKIL boys just turn around and ad it to an appropriations bill, or a transportation bill, or anything else they think they can slip through. Having alienated many on the left when you side with the far-right to kill immigration reform,... when those same right-wingers (Kyl/Cornyn) then turn on YOU ...you're left without valuable natural allies. (even the AFL-CIO sees the value of fighting for some immigrant rights, hell they just stopped the SS no-match fiasco that could have cost 12 mil US citizens their jobs)

            Why not try to work WITH us to craft immigration legislation that still protects US workers AND provides a modicum of compassion for those already here or wishing to come in the future. I think that would be better than constantly having to battle against both sides of the debate.

            by Duke1676 on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:31:32 PM PDT

            •  Cornyn

              Hell Duke, why the hell do you think I volunteer for campaigns on "no amnesty" Dems, yet another who has "amnesty" Dem?  I'm already on both sides of the coin and this is most assuredly wack-a-mole.  I'm always looking to nail those very GOP cats you list and Cornyn is one of the worst!  He claims to be against "amnesty" all the while introducing SKIL in every damn bill...now he's a mole I wanna whack!  

              Gee wiz, who do you think I'm talkin' to?  Tancredo?  Not on your life.  ;)

              by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 05:45:31 PM PDT

              •  stick with Bernie

                I'd put my money on him to do the right thing :)

                by Duke1676 on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 06:13:09 PM PDT

                •  DeFazio ;) n/t

                  by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 06:49:47 PM PDT

                  •  somehow I knew you'd say that

                    by Duke1676 on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 06:53:31 PM PDT

                •  FYI

                  I'm serious about Cornyn and there are many, many who want this guy gone gone gone so anybody who has any labor focused policy running against him can hammer him on his constant attempts to do corporate bidding....but he's one of our targets actually.

                  by BobOak on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 12:16:51 PM PDT

•  Speaking from personal experience

  with a wife who is trying to get her greed card currently,

  the immigration policy in this nation needs serious overhaul immediately.

  One of the many reasons we have such an immigration problem in this nation is because immigration by the book, legally, is so taxing, humiliating, degrading, time-consuming, expensive and exhausting -- that it is amazing that anyone immigrates here legally any more at all.

  (yes, the Mrs. and I are beyond frustrated with my government and their current policies...)

  Peace,

  • SS

  by Skeptical Spectacle on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:09:57 PM PDT

  •  adsf

    Well, having the AILA (immigrant attorneys) write up these bills you are guaranteed to have more complex, absurd processes because that's their bread and butter.  Believe me, they are protecting their billion dollar industry by hook or by crook to make sure anyone attempting to navigate it must pay them thousands of dollars.

    by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:14:38 PM PDT

  •  Many do not know how the current immigration law

    hurts so many people, and creates so many unreasonable burdens and obstacles for immigrant families.

    My concern is mostly for the workers and their families that have now become such a vital part of America.

    They are our friends, neighbors, mothers, fathers, wives, husbands, brothers, sister and children. They are portrayed by the conservatives as less than human. They don't do much better with many Kossacks. I think the silent majority wants immigration reform for the deserving. Please speak up in support of the voiceless and help to educate the Democrats, Independents and the progressive community about the realities of the undocumented in America.

    by immigradvocate on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:31:08 PM PDT

    •  uh no they don't

      in a resounding NO from the Senate attempt to push forth a corporate driven cheap labor lobby bill.  They so much DO NOT want this that it's possible Dems have risked the '08 election by pushing their US Chamber of Commerce agenda.  

      If you think for one moment that this guy's problem, which is through marriage, his wife should qualify for a green card but there is a maze of backlogs and bureaucracy going on ...that this bill is going to fix it????  Well, either you are seriously misinformed about what this bill is or you are possibly a paid corporate promoter.  

      by BobOak on Wed Sep 05, 2007 at 01:37:15 PM PDT

•  Comprehensive immigration reform

  If we follow the sad story of the recently defeated Kennedy-Kyl bill and the Kennedy-McCain bill of 2006, we will see that a bad legislative proposal, whether good or bad, is not enough. First, we need a strategy to make it happen and to achieve that we need organization to put pressure on the mediocre Hispanic leaders whose stubornness has led us from defeat to defeat since 2004, playing many times the game chosen by the xenophobic Right. Northern Virginia is where the most important victory of the Blue Dogs (new Democrats successful in swing states) happened with George Allen loosing to Jim Webb. Northern Virginia is also an example of the way the xenophobic Right is trying to gain positions inside the Democratic Party with the threatening possibility of having more Democrats in power in 2009 but less pro-immigrant Democrats [See the evolution of the Democratic vote in the Senate from the 2006 bill to the 2007 bill to the new anti-immigrant legislation, specially in swing states]. Finally, Northern Virginia is where the so-called pro-immigrant leaders are absurdly challenging whole counties as if they were wanting the Democratic Party to decide between the votes of the swing states and the inexistent votes of the immigrant community.
  I am convinced that if we do not achieve a good comprehensive reform by the end of 2009, Democrats are not going to be willing to risk their position with a comprehensive immigration reform not only because they do not have enough good research to back such a reform and the so-called pro-immigrant leaders have not been able to take to them the good research of the Pew Hispanic Center and the Cato Institute but also because the immaturity of the pro-immigrant Hispanic leadership could put them in embarrasing situations, like in Northern Virginia.
  The strategy to make a comprehensive immigration reform happen has to be launched and ready to work in the 2008 electoral process otherwise it will be too late to shape a successful good proposal in 2009. After 2009, the possibilities of a good comprehensive immigration reform could get stuck and have to wait for many years.
  Once again I invite you and your readers to create in daily Kos that seminal movement that refreshes the pro-immigrant leadership. Please share my article with your readers. I hope my next Diary will be on the strategic proposal that could make the legislative proposal happen as I am making one last attempt to reach pro-immigrant leaders. I have knocked many doors of the so-called pro-immigrant leaders and what I have found is loathe for knowledge and little vanities that isolate them among those who clap them and make them invulnerable to the upsetting feedback coming from reality.
  I invite you to read my new Diary in my section Alfredo Martin Bravo de Rueda Espejo on the marketing weaknesses of progressive leaders on immigration and on the war in Iraq issues.

  Alfredo M. Bravo de Rueda E.

  by Alfredo Martin Bravo de Rueda Espejo on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 01:49:16 PM PDT