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Damn you rich!  You already have your compensation.

Damn you who are well-fed!  You will know hunger.

Damn you who laugh now!  You will weep and grieve.

Damn you when everybody speaks well of you!

A rant from a radical preacher?  Without a doubt.  Someone on the Obama campaign?  Well, Sen. Obama says so.  That's the Scholars Translation of Luke 6:24-26, and the speaker is Jesus of Nazareth.  

In the King James Version, the first part of Luke 6:24 reads "But woe unto you that are rich!"  That comes off as quaint and a lot less shocking to modern ears -- not the kind of preaching that nets you space on Fox News.  But Jesus meant his words to be shocking.  He meant them to strike against the status quo and shake up the comfortable.

God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human.

God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.

That's Jeremiah Wright.

Is the vision of a pastor standing in his pulpit shouting "God damn America" shocking?  Yes.  But don't mistake Wright's (or Jesus') statement for what some drunk in a bar would mean using the same phrasing.  Wright isn't saying "FU America!" he's saying "these actions of America are worthy of God's condemnation."  He's just saying it in a way that cuts through the Sunday morning sleepiness and makes people sit up in their pew.

From Gandhi to King, it's in the nature of spiritual leaders to grab their audiences by the throat and their nations by the short hairs.  This was true at the time of the Civil War and during the Civil Rights movement.  Martyrs did not become martyrs by appealing to the status quo.  

Don't take this to mean that I agree with every word that Wright spoke (e.g. the United States did not create AIDS), but neither do I feel like his words require that "his church should lose it's tax exempt status" that he's a traitor, or that he's an embarrassment to his church or to Senator Obama -- all comments that have appeared on this site.  

Do I think that 9/11 was the "chickens coming home to roost?"  Yeah, I pretty much do.  Of course the terrorists bear the personal responsibility for their actions and the deaths that resulted.  But to pretend that decades of actions overseas had nothing to do with that terrible morning is far more delusional than anything said by Rev. Wright.  If you jab a stick into a hornet's nest and shake it for fifty years, the hornets might do the stinging, but you can't blame only the hornets.  Actions have consequences, and though we may pretend to both purity of motive and prescience about outcomes, the truth is that violence tends to generate violence in return.  Or, as that radical I quoted above said "those who take up the sword, will die by the sword."

The purpose of a good sermon isn't to placate, ease, and make people comfortable.  A dangerous religion isn't one that challenges people and makes them squirm.  Makes them angry.  A dangerous religion is one that is too amicable to what you already think, one that pats you on the head and sends you forth in assurance of your own righteousness.  If you want to search for "traitors" in the pulpit, turn your eye toward those who never find anything wrong in the actions of this nation.

I understand why Senator Obama finds it necessary to distance himself from Rev. Wright.  There were plenty of things in those sermons that I don't agree with, and I'm suspect many of the ideas that grate on my nerves also strike the Senator as either wrong or unsustainable politically.  These days, three isolated words on the news seem far more important than context or intent.  But I wish he didn't have to do so.  

Because getting your personal beliefs regularly challenged, rather than reinforced, is important.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:57 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Dear Hillary.... (8+ / 10-)

    Hillary's New York constituents are beginning to ask her to step aside-

    http://start-a-petition.com/...

    •  Spam, much? (5+ / 0-)

      Oprah? Nah, I'm voting however Jerry Springer tells me to.

      by Barry in MIA on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:11:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  87 signatures so far! (0+ / 0-)

      Really, it looks like it's all over for the Clinton campaign.  As a former Clinton supporter, I'm really trying to get with the Obama program, but all this bitching and finger pointing and endless spinning and repeating of talking points, attempts to pressure Hillary and the DNC... it's not making it easy.

      It's just my opinion, but my opinion is that you are out of your mind if you think that letting the Clinton campaign die a natural death is more "divisive" than beating it to death with a shovel.  Hillary Clinton is going to do what every politician has always done, stay in until her nomination is not merely improbable, but impossible.  She does this because she has a politician's ego, but also because she feels an obligation to her supporters.  When it's over, I fully expect her to smile and support Senator Obama, who would do exactly the same if he were in her position.  

      You've won.  So why are you so pissed off all the time?  This is the campaign that's going to bring America together?

      •  They are pissed off... (0+ / 0-)

        all the time because, as you see in this post, the majority of users on this site agree with most of what Wright said.  Apparently, giving no penalties for lack of tact.  Why do we allow this type of rhetoric to affect us?  

        Maybe Wright should study MLK Jr or Nelson Mandela speeches a little bit more.  Seems they were galaxies apart when you consider their abilities to CHANGE the hearts and minds of their oppressors.  To affect REAL change.  Wright knows how to affect hatred and anger in his parishoners.  Neither is effective in the least bit in achieving his goals of "equality".  

        The "Wright Equivocating" is deplorable and deserves to be condemned in full.  If we allow this type of rhetoric to dictate our emotions in regards to race relations in our country we'll be the ones who are condemned.  Condemned to hatred and anger.  If that is what you want to have in your life, more power to you.  In the end you'll wonder why you subscribed to such futile sentiments.    

        A bit more moderate than, say, Ghandi. -4.5, -2.1

        by TheKost on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:03:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll wonder why I subscribed to WHAT??? (0+ / 0-)

          No, I'm responding to the petition above (Dear Hillary), which has nothing to do with Wright, or this thread.  Sorry.

        •  G-A-N-D-H-I (0+ / 0-)

          Please correct the spelling in your sig.

          Residency doesn't make a Presidency.

          by gotgat54 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 03:31:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  but wait.... (0+ / 0-)

          wonder what type of people are coming from this church, what is their character, and what type of acts are they committing?

          How do you attack the Black base.....attack the Black Church....

          We as Blacks did not come here on a luxury cruiseship.
          We as Blacks did not stop at Ellis Island.
          We as Blacks did not have to push 2 for African.
          We as Blacks did not have a weightstation in the dessert to rest before continuing our journey.
          We as Blacks did not keep our children we gave birth to for years after we arrived.
          We as Black are not considered immigrants.

          Senator Obama had to earn the respect of Black voters as well as Whites.

          God is working.

          •  Can I ask one question? (0+ / 0-)

            How old are you?  I just would like to get an idea of your reference point.  

            Reason being, I have a hard time trying to deal with those who can't let go of the past when trying to heal wounds of the present.  It just CANNOT happen.  I never did anything to promote racism yet I'm lumped in with the oppressors.  Would you not take offense?  If you want to move on to equality we can't, hold each other responsible for what happened hundreds of years ago.  I'm sorry for everything that has happened at the hands of "evil whitey".  I can't change the past.  You can't change the past.  We have to leave that ugliness behind if we want to pursue our goals of unity, peace, love and respect.  I feel a finger pointing at me whenever our country's past in regard to slavery, prejudice and discrimination is brought up.  All because I'm white.  

            My grandparents escaped from Poland before the blitzkrieg.  My other grandparents are second gen Irish.  What the hell did I do to deserve being lumped into "evil whitey"??  What did my ancestors do?  They weren't even fucking HERE when all this shit was going down.  Do you understand why I am offended and probably many other whites in this country?  

            Furthermore, injustices against blacks this day and age PALE in comparison to the injustices against women in the world.  Yet we don't hear SHIT about the sex slave trade, genital mutilation and the mistreatment of women in general.  It's fucking appalling.  And to see this country attempting to beat down Hillary Clinton?  Yeah, it's really easy to beat a woman down.  Why?  Because its acceptable.  

            A bit more moderate than, say, Elvis. -4.5, -2.1

            by TheKost on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:09:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  oh.... (0+ / 0-)

              Furthermore, injustices against blacks this day and age PALE in comparison to the injustices against women in the world.

              What part of my list do you deny?   Was it corrected, by Americans?  Your family escaped and went where?  
              Do they not have a monument here in America?  Do we not light candles every year because of this invasion by Hitler and Stalin, that was not on American soil.

              In your opinion. So there are injustices against blacks but they just pale?
              But IMO, everything about America is based on Race.  What part do you not understand.  They just had a report recently stating that even in the Emergency Room Black Americans are not being diagnosed with the same rate, skill  as White Americans, in regards to pain mediciation.

              Show me any report, pick one out of millions that is fair and balanced when it comes to the poor Americans vs Black Americans.  Who are they, (poor Americans) where do they live, how are they living?

              Ommision of the facts is a big factor in this white racists society.  IF not, please explain.

              No I would not take offense if I honestly believed in History.  When did racism end in America for Blacks?  

              P.S.  I probably sound angry because on a daily basis I find untruths about the Black Community.

              I am old enough to have witnessed black only water fountains, as well as the candidacy of Senator Obama.

              Where was the outrage about Rev. Hagee who endorsed Sen Mccain before the tapes were revealed?

              What is going on in the White home is very different from what is going on in the Black home.

              The Catholic Church speaks against abortions, but yet Catholic females are among the highest Americans receiving abortions?  What does that mean?  Should they have left the church because of what they preach?  

          •  And Senator Obama has NONE of those (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TheKost

            experiences in his ancestry. No one in his family has ever been a slave. His father was a visiting student from Africa, not an American African-American with that history of slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow, etc. in his family's experience. And I seriously doubt Senator Obama, or any of his ancestors, has ever been pulled over for being the wrong color in the right neighborhood, or threatened for dating a white woman, drink out of separate fountains, or had to step out of the way when a white person came down the sidewalk. I think his embrace of Rev. Wright's church is from political expediency. If you are a light skinned black man with absolutely NO street creds, with a white mother and raised by white grandparents,  then what do you do to get ahead in politics with a black constituency? You join the blackest church you can find, preferably one that is controversially so. That way people perceive you as really black, in spite of the light color of your skin, and the fact that nothing in your life has anything to do with the usual black experience in America. My black friends, who are all blue collar, agree with me on this. They do not see Obama as a black man. They see him as a Harvard suit with a tan who sounds like a preacher. Senator Obama really does have a problem, if he denounces Rev. Wright and his racist yammerings, then he might offend the black voters. If he doesn't, he offends the white voters. I think he counted, and decided that the white voters were more important to him. There are more of us, after all. Political expediency, thy name is Barack Obama.

            What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

            by Demfem on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:40:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  his mother was... (0+ / 0-)

              a white woman with a Black child.  What part is not getting thru.  When people looked at him with his mother they did not say oh wait, his father is from Africa.

              •  I doubt that was much of a problem in (0+ / 0-)

                Indonesia, and by the time he was born, it wasn't that much of a problem in the US anymore. And since he was raised in Hawaii where mixed race children are quite common, and not frowned upon, it's unlikely his mother had much of a problem with racism, or that Obama did.

                What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

                by Demfem on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:33:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  the key word is... (0+ / 0-)

                  likely.

                •  What alternate universe do you live in? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TLS66

                  by the time he was born, it wasn't that much of a problem in the US anymore

                  My niece has two half-black children ages 6 and 8. Her parents treat them as 2nd class citizens while treating the white grandchildren as 1st class. This is in Michigan, a supposedly enlightened northern state. Perhaps in your universe racism has been eliminated. Unfortunately, in this universe it has not.

        •  Ever listened to MLK? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheKost

          While the MSM only replays the more pacified portions of MLK's speeches, there were many times when he spoke hard truths such as "You cant call yourselves Christians and kill your brothers in Vietnam".

        •  MLK's speeches (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheKost

          could be a bit more antagonistic than i think you might know.

    •  Rock and Roll is the devils tool doesnt make noo (10+ / 0-)

      sense at all..What the hell we were young and wanted to danced..Dance to our musik ! You devilstower are righteous in your own time..Rock that Pulpit..You got it exaktly Wright, chickens and alll...Gooo Obama..To the House !

      "Better a little late, than a little never"..Doctor Julian Winston

      by Johnny Rapture on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:09:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, thanks, Devilstower (35+ / 0-)
      And remember when Rudy Giuliani was endorsed by Pat Robertson, who said, along with his buddy Jerry Falwell that America brought 9-11 on itself for countenancing gays, feminists, wiccans and the ACLU, the media didn't even bring it up, instead simply pondering whether the endorsment would raise Giuliani's standing with evangelicals. Nothing about his being unpatriotic though.

      We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:09:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  heheh the great thing is what he said.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gogol

        He said about Wright...."He is the man who brought me to Jesus Christ and church"  and this was in response to if he would not have anything else to do with Wright.  I love it, you know the neo-cooks watching Fox had to be like "BASTARD! we had him dead to rights and he turns this into a way to promote the fact the he is a christian to the religious right watching fox!"  

        MuuuuuHAHaHaHaHa  i love it.... WTG Hannity you just gave every conservative who you emailed that Obama was a muslim the proof that he is not a muslim HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

        thank god that Washington, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, MLK, and every president during the Cold War dared to Hope for a Change. Change and America are synonymous...

        by wargolem on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:28:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  amen amen from me too----- (7+ / 0-)

      every word.

    •  Devilstower, Kudos! (13+ / 0-)

      This is so clear and concise an analysis and explanation; for someone to deny the logic and truth of this essay, I can only imagine that they would have to be in active denial of history.

      "You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -Abbie Hoffman

      by Uthaclena on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:29:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree, Kudos to Devilstower (3+ / 0-)

        Just another victim of the 24 hour news cycle.

        by IDrankWhat on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:37:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This essay's a stunner (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gogol, Gym N Jim, Lisactal, novayahavoc

        So, according to the diarist, it's OK to say "God damn America," because what Wright really meant was:

        God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human.

        God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.

        Wow, that's a winning argument for that general election in November.

        •  it's a winning argument (0+ / 0-)

          to convince yourself that your candidate is in the right, despite of wright.

          •  The candidate disagreed, fool. (0+ / 0-)

            When did it become a requirement for Clinton supporters to be stupid and dishonest?

            •  after 20 years, he disagreed (0+ / 0-)

              if he's found to be sitting in the pew during one of these sermons, you'll still be one of the few gullible enough to take him on his word.

              after 20 years, he disagrees? after using one of his sermons as a title for his book, he disagrees?

              for a candidate who has nothing to offer but cute slogans (someone learned something from george w's campaign), he has no choice but to stick to the narrative. otherwise, it might confuse his followers.

              •  In a nutshell.... (0+ / 0-)

                Obama:

                Anything that offends you or anyone else I condemn!  Anything you don't like about America I demand change.  Anything you want, you got it.  BaaaaaaaaaBY!  YOU GOT IT!  

                A bit more moderate than, say, Ghandi. -4.5, -2.1

                by TheKost on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:07:38 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You're a lying piece of shit. (0+ / 0-)

                How do you live with yourself? 30 seconds of video, and you know that he's been saying these things for 20 years? He hasn't, and Obama hasn't heard them for 20 years.

                Because most people here aren't idiots, your stupid comments won't sway them.

        •  not like the meaning of the preacher was hidden.. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sharoney, mrkvica, slowheels, Dar Nirron

          Wright's message was exactly what the diarist says it was...to imply otherwise is a disservice to generally accepted principles of context

        •  So, in essentially, Jeremiah Wright is the 2nd... (0+ / 0-)

          coming of Jesus Christ.  It is all clear now!

        •  That's the actual quote. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gogol, Spinning Head, mind unseen

          On TV they cut him off right after "God damn America." But this:

          God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human.

          God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.

          is a direct quote from that sermon.

          Barracking for Barack.

          by paintitblue on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:39:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, the truth stuns you. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gogol

          Wow, that's a winning argument for that general election in November.

          It's not an argument for the GE, troll -- Obama has rejected Wright's words. But nonetheless his words are valid, as the diarist argued -- an argument that you don't even try to refute.

          •  If his words are valid.... (0+ / 0-)

            And Obama is as smart as you say he is....

            Why can't he defend them?  I mean, come on, the guy was pres of Harvard Law Review.  Doesn't this guy know how to debate?  

            Of course he IS smart.  He WAS the HLR pres.  And he DOES know how to debate.  However, the political expediency just isn't there to defend Wright.  Imagine, if he were like some of his base here and actually DID defend those words by Wright.  He wouldn't see the light of another campaigning day.  THATS why he doesn't defend Wrights words and chooses to condemn it.  

            Teh prablem iz, teh wordz was uzed bi Write r suckzors!

            Indefensible.

            A bit more moderate than, say, Ghandi. -4.5, -2.1

            by TheKost on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:13:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  to defend these words.... (0+ / 0-)

              is to admit that America is racist.  Wonder how he was treated walking down American streets with a white mother?  

              Wonder how Americans treated his mom?

              •  Well, let me ask you a serious question... (0+ / 0-)

                Do you or do you not believe there is a large racist demographic within the black community?

                I'll assume you're being fair and answer yes.  

                We all know there is a large percentage of white people with racist leanings.

                Do you see the problem?  Scapegoating and victimizing will not solve these issues.  We need to address our respective communities in a forceful manner and say "enough is enough".  It's time to move on and resolve once and for all.  Equal pay, rights and the whole thing for EVERYONE.  Including WOMEN!

                A bit more moderate than, say, Elvis. -4.5, -2.1

                by TheKost on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:32:18 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  but wait.... (0+ / 0-)

                  that is exactly what Senator Obama is trying to do.  He is trying to work for a combined United States of America.  It would be nice if someone ask about the products coming out of this Church.  What are the actual members doing in their everyday life.

                  Here is the difference:

                  We all know there is a large percentage of white people with racist leanings vs there is a large racist demographic within the black community?

                  Even with your choice of words you seem to make white racist different somehow.  

                  •  I can't ... (0+ / 0-)

                    affect the lens through which you see the world.  You didn't even have the decency to answer my first question in the post.  It just went off topic and threw in a comment about how I seemingly differentiate between white and black racists.  There is no difference.  None whatsoever.  Both are ignorant. Both are the root of the problem.  

                    A bit more moderate than, say, Elvis. -4.5, -2.1

                    by TheKost on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:29:51 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Non sequitur. (0+ / 0-)

              I don't disagree with your first three paragraphs, but they have nothing to do with what you responded to. As for your quote box, it doesn't appear to be a quote of anything, and I have no idea what it is that you think is indefensible.

    •  RAmen, Devilstower! (n/t) (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      johnrhoffman, foldingBicycle

      BUSH: Like a rock...but dumber.
      Stewart/Olberman 2008!

      by mugsimo on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:56:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your name (0+ / 0-)

      is curious for one who can write such a good commentary on  one of Jesus' greatest sermons. You clearly understand that Christianity is subversive by nature and necessity. Why "Devilstower"?

    •  Great Diary! (0+ / 0-)

      These condemnations come at the end of "the Beatitudes."

      It's interesting that in the US churches one seldom hears a sermon preached on the Beatitudes in Luke which begin "Blessed are the poor for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."  Almost always the text is from Matthew, "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

      Preachers usually then talk about poverty of spirit and how we may be rich in material things but are poor in spirit, and thus blessed by God.  Why, in God's Name, would God want someone to be poor in spirit?  It makes no sense.

      I think the true meaning of Matthew is revealed by reading Luke.  A better English translation would be "the poor are blessed in spirit because theirs is the kingdom of heaven."  That is radically different from the namby-pamby message that mainstream preachers torture out of the passage.

      The Rev. Dr. Jeremiah Wright taught a seminary course that I took.  And I was relatively certain that if I understood the context of his message, I would probably agree with him.

      All he was doing was taking the passage of condemnations in Luke that follows the Beatitudes and updating it so it makes sense for today's Christians - that is the "Woe to you who are rich" statement applies to the US as the richest most powerful country on earth.  It may not be a message that people WANT to hear, but if it were, it wouldn't be the Gospel.  

      On the other hand, I understand why political reality is such that Obama had to distance himself from Dr. Wright.  Campaigns have to run on shorthand, and can't handle the longhand necessary to understand the pericope of a biblical text and then put it squarely in today's context.

      (- 4.63, - 5.18) Truth is incontrovertible, ignorance can deride it, panic may resent it, malice may destroy it, but there it is. --Winston Churchill

      by mkfarkus on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:43:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's my opinion that (53+ / 0-)

    too many have taken Wright's comments out of context. His comments should be considered after listening/viewing all his sermons in their entirety. America is not perfect, and, I think, criticism, even angry criticism of America, is understandable.

    •  That's a pretty tall order (11+ / 0-)

      asking people to listen to all of his sermons in their entirety.

      •  Should anyone actually (9+ / 0-)

        wish to sample them:  here you go.

        "Homo sapiens is the only species on the planet that will follow ... an unstable leader." Cesar Millan

        by middleagedhousewife on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:04:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your link doesn't work. (0+ / 0-)

          At least for me.

          •  Link excerpt, about the church (3+ / 0-)

            Mission Statement: What Trinity Is About
            Trinity United Church of Christ has been called by God to be a congregation that is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that does not apologize for its African roots! As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family. We, as a church family, acknowledge, that we will, building on this affirmation of "who we are" and "whose we are," call men, women, boys and girls to the liberating love of Jesus Christ, inviting them to become a part of the church universal, responding to Jesus’ command that we go into all the world and make disciples!
            We are called out to be "a chosen people" that pays no attention to socio-economic or educational backgrounds. We are made up of the highly educated and the uneducated. Our congregation is a combination of the haves and the have-nots; the economically disadvantaged, the under-class, the unemployed and the employable.
            The fortunate who are among us combine forces with the less fortunate to become agents of change for God who is not pleased with America’s economic mal-distribution!
            W.E.B. DuBois indicated that the problem in the 20th century was going to be the problem of the color line. He was absolutely correct. Our job as servants of God is to address that problem and eradicate it in the name of Him who came for the whole world by calling all men, women, boys and girls to Christ.

            http://www.tucc.org/...

            See also their ministries:
            http://www.tucc.org/...

            Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

            by LNK on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:35:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  For sure, evun thinking about it makes me want to (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Trix, jlms qkw

        doze off on a lazy hazy Sun morn..

        "Better a little late, than a little never"..Doctor Julian Winston

        by Johnny Rapture on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:12:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You wouldn't fall asleep in one of Rev. Wright's (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          HCKAD

          sermons!  I just watched one, available for free on the web (using the link a couple of comments above), and it was very moving and powerful!

          It wasn't one from which the controversial comments were taken, but there's no question that the little clips strung together on TV totally distort who the Rev. Wright is and what he's all about.

          Experience is like tail-lights on a boat which illuminate where we have been, when we should be focusing on where we should be going. John F. Kennedy

          by Happy Days on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:51:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Well (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lcrp

        We're not even judging Wright's statements in the context of the sermon in which they were delivered.  AFAIK, no one has made available a transcript of this sermon.

    •  Welcome to the modern age... (13+ / 0-)

      Somebody had their comments taken out of context?  Nooooo, say it ain't so :)

      The timing of this is ultimately a good thing I suspect.  Yeah if you watch 30 seconds of video clips of some of Wright's more extreme statements, it is shocking.  But over the next several weeks leading up to the Pennsylvania primary, Obama has time to talk about this and what it really means.

      It's kind of an odd opportunity really.  It's giving Obama a chance to speak about religious, and racism, and a lot of topics he's not delved into much.  He's airing what dirty laundry he has (and it's not very dirty) at an perfect time.  He's taking over the news cycle and while initially this all looked negative, the more time Obama has in front of people the better for him.  Time and time again it's been clear that his personableness, his calm well reasoned logic, and his credibility sway people when they get the chance to see it.  

      ---
      Disclaimer: I'm swimming laps in the Obama koolaid

      by sterno on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:12:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Criticism is fine. Wright is nuts. (2+ / 0-)

      I think Obama denounced him for a good reason. Religious zealotry, left or right, is dangerous and ignorant.

      Read the Day of Affirmation Address by RFK!

      by Common Cents on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:42:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wright's Zealotry (5+ / 0-)

        is/was as much about Liberation as it was about religious requisites.  Liberation Theology as I understand it is grounded in the premise that God provided each man and woman with Free Will, and endowed each of us with a predilection to pursue the Freedom (Liberty) to exercise that Will. This is why all slaves yearn for freedom, no matter how many centuries their condition of servitude may last. Wright's condemnation of America had everything to do with the condition in which he found his people suffering. Emotional and psychological slavery is just as bad - maybe worse than physical containment, as the former requires that you set your sights on self-containment - which goes against your God-given predilections.  This is a crazy-making condition. Hence, Wright's seemingly alarming call for Liberation. I suppose this is why you called Wright nuts. One Black philosopher suggested that if Black Americans were to find sanity living in America, they would ultimately do so in a manner that makes them seem perverse to the dominant (White) community.

        On that note, I understand why Obama had to distance himself from Wright's comments. To wit, your own responses to Wright - and I assume you would support an Obama presidency.

        •  Without getting into a religious argument... (0+ / 0-)

          Let me say that Wright just assumes we all agree that God exists, free will exists, and the goal of the biblical God is stated as freedom and liberation.

          I say Wright is nuts because he is absolutely certain about issues of which no finite mind can be certain. He then works from that assumption of knowledge he doesn't possess to begin telling people how things should be.

          We need a little less certainty and rigidity in our positions so that we can work together to make the world work better for us. That is why I support Barack Obama. He is moving past the old arguments and nonsense of people like Wright.

          Read the Day of Affirmation Address by RFK!

          by Common Cents on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:09:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wright assumes that all (7+ / 0-)

            who showed up in his church agreed God exists. That just makes sense, don't you think? I'm not asking YOU to agree that God exists. I'm just saying that most of us who do (and who happen to be Black) have no problem with Wright's assumptions around freedom and liberation.

            •  Who cares what he thinks... (0+ / 0-)

              If he had any fucking clue HOW to affect meaningful change don't you think we'd be hearing him mentioned in the same breath as MLK, Malcolm X or Nelson Mandela?  And if not, at least be able to nod, like Obama, in agreement with his statements?  

              You can rant and rave all you want about "freedom and liberation" all you want til you're purple in the face.  It just isn't about that at all.  It's about EFFECTIVENESS.  Wright doesn't have the first iota about anything effective.  Infective, maybe.  

              He's a disgusting charlatan and should be pushed to the fringe where he belongs. Exit stage left Yosemite Sam.

              A bit more moderate than, say, Ghandi. -4.5, -2.1

              by TheKost on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:21:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Wright & Obama (0+ / 0-)

          You observation is right on the nut! Obama may be committing a mistake in distancing himself from Reverend Wright. Sermons are supposed to make their audience uncomfortable. Soft and squishy platitudes on a Sunday? Why bother getting up and dressed for that!?!

          She voted for the war!

          by johnrhoffman on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:11:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  He didn't distance himself from Wright but (4+ / 0-)

            only from the particular remarks being played on TV out of context.  I thought he was pretty clear about not condemning Rev. Wright himself.

            Experience is like tail-lights on a boat which illuminate where we have been, when we should be focusing on where we should be going. John F. Kennedy

            by Happy Days on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:55:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Obama's handlers (0+ / 0-)

              There is too much happening, and it's happening fast. Every candidate has to rely on the people around him to watch his back. I understand that the handlers tell the candidate about the dangers being faced every minute if they're any good at their jobs. Both Hillary's and Obama's handlers are too old for their jobs. Neither candidate seems to fully understand how quickly a remark or event can affect the campaign results. Any person with a camera on their telephone can create newsworthy media content out of context. Every person can become a media event. If you are a political candidate or a celebrity, you had better get your head out of your ass!

              She voted for the war!

              by johnrhoffman on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:31:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Obama didn't denounce religious zealotry. (0+ / 0-)

        It's your argument that's nuts, especially when you get into "Wright just assumes we all agree that God exists, free will exists, and the goal of the biblical God is stated as freedom and liberation. I say Wright is nuts because he is absolutely certain about issues of which no finite mind can be certain." below. Nuttily off topic ... and I say this as an atheist.

    •  Criticism of America (2+ / 3-)
      Recommended by:
      ricochet, Gym N Jim
      Hidden by:
      TocqueDeville, slowheels, don mikulecky

      I think, criticism, even angry criticism of America, is understandable.

      Criticism like, "the U.S. government brought down the World Trade Center"?

      Criticism like, "the U.S. government creates HIV to exterminate blacks"?

      This is lunacy, and it's coming from someone who's Obama's pastor -- not merely his pastor, actually, but his close spiritual adviser.  Someone who he consults before taking major decisions.  Someone who inspired the name for Obama's political manifesto.

      This is exactly what Hillary supporters had in mind when we said Obama wasn't vetted.

      •  You're putting words in quote marks that are not (4+ / 0-)

        the actual quotes from the sermons.  That's even worse than taking them out of context.

        "The chickens are coming home to roost" is an argument that can be made.  Your so-called quote, "the U.S. government brought down the World Trade Center" sounds like one more tinfoil hat conspiracy theory--not at all what Rev. Wright was talking about.

        It's also very misleading when you say

        Someone who he consults before taking major decisions.  

        Wright was his spiritual consultant, not his political consultant.

        Experience is like tail-lights on a boat which illuminate where we have been, when we should be focusing on where we should be going. John F. Kennedy

        by Happy Days on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:01:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's WORSE... (0+ / 0-)

          that he is his spritual consultant rather than his political consultant.  A person's spirit and soul are who they TRULY are.  A person's politics are what they WANT for themselves.

          A bit more moderate than, say, Ghandi. -4.5, -2.1

          by TheKost on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:30:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Go listen to an entire TUCC service (0+ / 0-)

            not a few statements, spread out over years, that do not represent at all who Rev. Wright is or what he preaches.

            Seriously.  You can download past services from the TUCC website.

            They (and Rev. Wright) are beautiful and inspiring.  Those few clips on TV are not representative.  At all.

            Experience is like tail-lights on a boat which illuminate where we have been, when we should be focusing on where we should be going. John F. Kennedy

            by Happy Days on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:04:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  This is a lie (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        skwimmer, blueness

        You put words he never said in quotation marks. That violates any sense of adherence to the truth and integrity.

        Please, go on strike already.

      •  Those are not accurate quotes. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        skwimmer

        This is exactly what Hillary supporters had in mind when we said Obama wasn't vetted.

        When who said Obama wasn't vetted? Too funny. What the hell does any of this have to do with vetting? I hope somebody is digging into Clinton's church's pastor's sermons. Could be fun, could be boring, could be revealing.

      •  When did being a lying moronic troll (0+ / 0-)

        become a requirement for being a Clinton supporter?

      •  Hillary vetted? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        skwimmer, Dave the Rave

        With bible study buddies like Rick Santorum and Sam Brownback?

      •  What? (0+ / 0-)

        the AID thing goes way back during the reagan era. Alot of still think that even republicans.

  •  DAMN YOU (0+ / 0-)

    For posting a comment that has absolutely, absolutely nothing to do with this diary.

    /snark

    Please don't tell me you feel sorry for Ben. Ben is a well cared for dalmatian and has not been harmed by my political views.

    by Bensdad on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:00:45 PM PDT

  •  pastordan's Comments (32+ / 0-)

    I'd like to recommend a trip over to Street Preachers, where pastordan has weighed in on the Wright "controversy."

    It's a good Sunday knock in the head.  Just like we all need.

  •  My mother always said. (24+ / 0-)

    ...it's not what you say but how you say it.

    I'm Afro-American, an Obama supporter and fairly open-minded (even forward-minded when I think about it).

    It wasn't WHAT Wright was saying that was so shocking, but the negative, wrathful tone in which he was saying them. He was obviously trying to evoke an angered, accusatory response from his audience.

    Trying to bring about change through anger and resentment is the old way of doing things, in which Wright was brought up in. As Obama stated, that old way to bring about change has passed and it's Obama's time now.

    •  I don't think it is anger (11+ / 0-)

      it is the appropriate way to react to what is being done in our name all the time. Sometimes you have to be passionate. Sometimes folks take that as anger.

      "How far up your ass do these guys dicks need to be before you realize they're fucking you?"- Bill Hicks -8.88, -8.36

      by bebacker on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:05:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not talking anger.. (7+ / 0-)

        ..I stressed NEGATIVITY. There's a way to talk about the plight of a people with righteous anger. I looked at the videos of his sermon and asked myself "what is the response he's looking for?"

        It didn't seem like he was asking his congregation to DO anything. It seemed he just wanted to cry "The White Man Blues" and get his flock angry for the sake of it. It's something very common in the black community (trust me). It happens in every barbershop and living room. Blacks gathering to say how much The Man sucks and get all riled up, but noone saying anything about what's to be done?

        That's what Obama's talking about. Getting mad and running down a list of complaints can only get us so far. It's time for us as AMERICANS to work TOGETHER to solve our problems. Not look at things a a "black" issue or "latino" issue. These are AMERICAN issues.

        •  It is not always the person voicing the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mrkvica

          concern that is responsible to ALSO give the answers as to what people should do about the information his is gracious enough to provide. Again, anger, negativity etc etc is commonly mislabeled when one is speaking truth to power.

          "How far up your ass do these guys dicks need to be before you realize they're fucking you?"- Bill Hicks -8.88, -8.36

          by bebacker on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:22:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You might as well indict all preachers. (0+ / 0-)

          Which isn't necessarily wrong, but your statements are really quite naive, and rather ad hoc.

    •  I know I personally (24+ / 0-)

      haven't seen the whole sermon.  Don't know if you have or not.  But it is normal for preachers to start off calm, then become more invigorated, more animated, more vehement, and more challenging as the sermon commences.  "Y'all don't want to hear this."  

      Wright isn't running for president. He was delivering a sermon.  The smearing of that church was shameful, shameful bs from the media.

      "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

      by GN1927 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:16:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agree. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      joesig, Rosebuddear, jlms qkw

      I also think the angry tone is what differentiates Wright from Martin Luther King and Ghandi.

      The original post contradicts its own premise by invoking Martin Luther King and Ghandi:
      "From Gandhi to King, it's in the nature of spiritual leaders to grab their audiences by the throat and their nations by the short hairs."

      Those truly great leaders were able to bring about changes without resorting to rhetoric like Wright's.

      •  MLK (14+ / 0-)

        I can hear God saying to America, "You're too arrogant! And if you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power, and I'll place it in the hands of a nation that doesn't even know my name. Be still and know that I'm God."

        Compare to the Wright quote above.

        •  Saying you're arrogant, (1+ / 0-)

          and if you don't change I'll break the backbone of your power is not the same as god damn you.

          Also, if you find some of the longer clips of Wright on Youtube, you'll see him say that Bill Clinton screwed us just like he screwed Monica. I can't imagine those words coming from MLK.

          •  Yes it is. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sagittarius

            I see little difference in the point of both phrases, other that the choice of words used. Wright may have used words that you may not have liked, but then, you probably were never intended to be part of his chosen audience.

            •  As Obama has stressed, words are important (0+ / 0-)

              and Wright's choice of words is different than MLK's.

              •  Obama has never used Wright's language. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                skwimmer, thurst

                So tell me again why we're all worked up about this non-issue?

                •  First, Obama said in his recent speech (0+ / 0-)

                  on this issue that anytime a Clinton supporter made a gaff, the media woud wrongly try to attribute it to Hillary Clinton playing the race card. Hillary was routinely denounced by the media and many Obama supporters for language she didn't use herself. It is amazing to me that many of the same people who got so worked up by the comments of Geraldine Ferraro which Hillary Clinton plainly said she disagreed with started immediately crying fowl when Obama was criticized for the words of one of his supporters.

                  Second, your point is completely irrelevent to any of my comments in this thread. Here's what happened:
                  1.) I agreed with someone who disliked the tone of reverend Wright's comments.
                  2.) In the same post I made the point that the language used by Wright contradicted the premise of the original diary which argued that Wright was using tactics similar to Martin Luther King and Ghandi when he made his contreversial remarks. I contend that Martin Luther King and Ghandi did not use the same kind of vitriolic language.
                  3.) Someone responded with a quote from Mrtin Luther King that was critical of America.
                  4.) I said the quote from Martin Luther King was not the same as Wright saying "god damn America." and pointed out that Wright had said Bill Clinton screwed us just like he screwed Monica. I defy anyone to find similar language by Martin Luther King.
                  5.) Someone responded that the only difference between Wright's comments and MLK's were the words they used.
                  6.) I made the counterpoint that, as Obama has said, words matter.

                  Your comment that Wright's language is irrelevant because Obama has never used it is completely irrelevant to my original point.

                  Third and Finally, Barak Obama put the argument about Wright's language to rest with his brilliant speech. Unlike the original diarist, Obama did not make excuses for Wright's comments or compare Wright's comments with anything MLK ever said. Instead Obama correcty denounced Wright's comments and said he strongly disagreed with them. Obama put the matter to rest by saying that it is wrong to judge Wright solely on the basis of his contreversial comments.

          •  These arguments are intellectually dishonest. (0+ / 0-)

            MLK said a lot of things that you can't imagine, like that "the hottest places in hell are reserved" for the same folks Wright is saying God should damn.

      •  Y'know, when you spell Gandhi wrong twice when (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        skwimmer

        the correct spelling is in your own quote, it suggests disrespect and/or intellectual laziness.

        Those truly great leaders were able to bring about changes without resorting to rhetoric like Wright's.

        This is SO dishonest. Why hold Wright to a higher standard than you hold yourself? All sorts of people fail to do what MLK or Gandhi did, but that isn't reason to excoriate them.

    •  you mother was wrong (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RabidNation, Rosebuddear, jlms qkw

      it IS what you say!

      Or are you seriously saying that there some "nice" way to talk about the huge crime that have been committed by USA in the past 50 years?

      Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans

      by techno on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:22:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Are you Republican? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vernonbc

        Because your oversimplification of what I said betrays you as such.

        It's not about being "nice". It's about "what are you trying to do?"

        If I'm trying to show you the error of your ways and trying to get you to change them, amd I going to say "you're a dirty sinner and are going to burn in Hell for all eternity!"? Or will I try "brother, you're on the wrong path that can only lead to destruction. The Lord shows us a better path. Let us walk it together."

        I'm on the same topic, addressing it in a completely different matter.

        There's a way to talk to people that doesn't make them feel put upon and not set yourself up as somehow superior. Are you trying to bring someone down or lift them up? Hey, a presidential candidate I know of says the same thing....

        •  Not even close (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          scrutinizer

          I am 58 years old.  I have heard little old ladies claim "it's how you say it" for at least 56 of those years.

          Yes there are more effective ways to communicate than others, but when the going gets rough, it is ALL about what you are saying.  And the folks who prattle on about saying it better are seriously deluding themselves.

          And sometimes, as history has shown, you must ratchet up your language until you have provoked an armed revolution.

          But it really IS ok if you decide not to clue in your mother.  

          Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans

          by techno on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:20:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  closer than you think (0+ / 0-)

            Well techno, I am 60 years old and realize that you win far more arguments if you are more nuanced in your phrasiology. Hammering on like an artillery piece gets you tuned out more often than not. Its ok, you will probably figure it out in the next couple years.

            •  Oh. My. God. (0+ / 0-)

              We live in a country founded by revolutionaries.  And now we are being told what would have worked much better is Mr. Rogers.

              You really think you can "win" an argument with folks who torture with nuance?

              Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans

              by techno on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:10:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  You realize a lot of things that are false. (0+ / 0-)

              realize that you win far more arguments if you are more nuanced in your phrasiology

              Oh, you've done a scientific study? And it's "phraseology", you arrogant old fool.

        •  Are you an asshole? (0+ / 0-)

          It's a rhetorical question, because you obviously are.

          If I'm trying to show you the error of your ways

          Well aren't you just fucking wonderful.

          •  Damn, you are just an ad hominem MACHINE (0+ / 0-)

            Try reading what he wrote in context.  He was giving an example, making a parallel to Wright's approach.  In his example, the parallel version of Wright is the one "trying to show you the error of your ways and trying to get you to change them,", not StarkyLuv.  

            If you're going to snipe at people with your little one and two sentence insult posts, at least try to accurately comprehend what you are responding to.

            John McCain: He's not just crazy ...
            He's BATSHIT CRAZY!

            by kbman on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:47:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  What you say matters too. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mrkvica

      All the preachers in protestant settings scream and shout. They think the louder they are the more authority they have.

      Read the Day of Affirmation Address by RFK!

      by Common Cents on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:28:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It wasn't what Wright was saying that was so (0+ / 0-)

      shocking? I'm sorry, but that's simply dishonest. It is precisely what he was saying that so many American exceptionalists and white exceptionalists are so shocked by ... that anyone dare hold them responsible for their actions.

  •  Excellent defense of what is defensible about (17+ / 0-)

    what Wright said. How could we love our country--any country--without getting angry at it sometimes?

    Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose. -Barack Obama

    by klizard on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:02:06 PM PDT

  •  Anti-Semitism is Charge Which Sticks (7+ / 0-)

    Pastor Wright has had some good moments of speaking "truth to power".  But it's the association with anti-Semites such as Louis Farrakhan and Wright's strident criticism of Israel which may be most damaging in the general election.  They certainly bother me considerably.

    •  Farrakhan has no involvement (25+ / 0-)
      in Obama's campaign, and I am personally sick of support for Israel being a litmus test --I'm Jewish and I think both Hillary and Obama, both of whom are tripping overthemselves to grovel to AIPAC, are wrong on this issue. Any attempt to show Obama is anti-Israel is pure spin; he SHOULD be a LOT harder on Israel but he won't be. It's political suicide, considering how the AIPAC'ers bully and silence even Jewish voices who oppose them and suggest that Israel may not be spotless and Palestine may not be all evil.

      We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:12:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Didn't Wright name Farrakhan the church's man of (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ricochet, Larry Bailey, joesig, Eric S, MAORCA

        the year?  Have a dinner or seminar or such honoring him?  Just asking.

        Oprah? Nah, I'm voting however Jerry Springer tells me to.

        by Barry in MIA on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:15:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Anti-Semitism in Church (0+ / 0-)

          Yes, Farrakhan received an award from Wright, although it perhaps wasn't done directly through the church.

          Also here's a recent sermon from Obama's church.

          http://www.youtube.com/...

          •  the award (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ricochet, fbc21ca, Fineena, paintitblue

            As I understand it, was given by a magazine run by Wright's daughters.  It wasn't directly from the church, or even from Wright -- though Wright did write a pro-Farrakhan intro in the magazine.

            I find a lot of things to hate about Farrakhan.  Not just dislike, hate.  But I'd be extremely upset if anyone tried to silence him.

            •  I Don't Want to Silence Anybody (2+ / 0-)

              But I sure don't want to support Louis Farrakhan either.  And I don't understand why Obama places so much confidence in a Farrakhan supporter such as Reverend Wright.

              •  Repeat after me, Obama..doesn't (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Albatross, Fineena, paintitblue

                support...Farrakhan...and...if...you... believe...in...guilt...by... association...then don't...vote...for...him.

                •  Guilt by association (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ricochet, nhc1978

                  Guilt by association is wrong if the association is a passing or immaterial one.

                  But the association between Obama and Wright is not a passing one.  Wright is Obama's pastor.  He married Obama and baptized his kids.  

                  In fact, Wright is more than Obama's pastor -- he's his spiritual confident.  Wright gets consulted before Obama takes major political decisions.  Wright inspired the name for Obama's political manifesto.  Wright was part of his campaign.

                  This is a deep relationship, if you ask me -- and when relationships go that deep, it's legitimate to ask what kind of company you keep.

                  •  Alright. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Fineena

                    You've posted this line of attack more than once on this thread.

                    Please provide evidence that Wright is Obama's political advisor. And being the inspiration for a witty phrase doesn't count.

                    •  Happy to oblige (0+ / 0-)

                      You've posted this line of attack more than once on this thread.  Please provide evidence that Wright is Obama's political advisor. And being the inspiration for a witty phrase doesn't count.

                      When this whole issue came to light, I read the following article from the Chicago Tribune about Rev. Wright:

                      http://www.chicagotribune.com/...

                      This article states that "[t]hough Wright and Obama do not often talk one-on-one often, the senator does check with his pastor before making any bold political moves."  That qualifies him as a political advisor, as well as a spiritual advisor, in my book.

                      It also quotes Obama as saying, "What I value most about Pastor Wright is not his day-to-day political advice.... He's much more of a sounding board for me to make sure that I am speaking as truthfully about what I believe as possible and that I'm not losing myself in some of the hype and hoopla and stress that's involved in national politics" (emphasis mine).

                      Note that Obama says he values Wright "most" as a "sounding board," rather than as a source of day-to-day political advice.  That's "most" -- not "only."  So Obama, by his own admission, has used Wright as a source of political advice, just not most of the time, or on a day-to-day basis.  And Obama's use of Wright as a "sounding board" to make sure that he's "speaking truthfully" could mean anything.

                      •  Yeah, right. (0+ / 0-)

                        "Though Wright and Obama do not often talk one-on-one often, the senator does check with his pastor before making any bold political moves."

                        What sort of political moves? Can't be on campaign strategies. After all Obama says:

                        "..rather than advising him on strategy, Wright helps keep his priorities straight and his moral compass calibrated."

                        Can't be on policy, given this quote:

                        "He's much more of a sounding board for me to make sure that I am speaking as truthfully about what [b]I[/b] believe..."

                        Note the word "I" and not "he" in the above quote.

                        So what's left? Obama may need someone to act as a mirror so that "I'm not losing myself in some of the hype and hoopla and stress that's involved in national politics."

                        Really, your entire argument rests on one quote:

                        "What I value most about Pastor Wright..."

                        And its true, Pastor Wright does have more value to Obama other than acting as "a sounding board". But whatever that value may be, it is unmentioned. And there is nothing in the article that suggests that it is anything other than spiritual in nature.

                        Quite frankly, the article paints a very positive portrait of the Rev. Wright. I'm not sure I'm happy that Obama has been force to distance himself from Wright over the fears that he may be too much of a black "militant" for the rest of America.

                        Nice try, though.

                        •  Not buying it (0+ / 0-)

                          Sorry, but if you consult someone before making major political moves, you're providing political advice.  It's not as if human beings develop spiritual crises like clockwork one month before an important election.

                          There may be others you talk with more frequently, or on a more granular level, but political advice it is.    No exercise in contortions can change that.

                          Furthermore, even if I were to concede your point that Rev. Wright's mentoring of Obama is only spiritual in nature -- or that you can fully separate the spiritual from the political -- I fail to see how that makes Wright a more sympathetic figure.  "I only see racist pastors about spiritual questions!" isn't exactly a rallying cry.

                          •  I'm not suprised. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            vernonbc

                            You can't show me anything concrete in that article that supports your point. I suppose spiritual advice in the context of a political campaign is by, nature political. But so what?

                            There is no evidence that Rev. Wright provides advice on policy, or on campaign strategies. And you can't find any.

                            And there is no evidence in that article that Obama and Wright even share an identical political and historical viewpoint. Yet you still believe that Rev. Wright and Senator Obama are somehow joined at the hip.

                            All you've got are a lot of unsupported assumptions about human nature and a desire to character assassinate a man in a disingenuous manner.

                            Really, which one of us is engaging in contortioned logic?

                          •  As a lying Hillary shill, of course you're not (0+ / 0-)

                            buying anything that isn't a smear of Obama.

                  •  WOW (0+ / 0-)

                    WOW WHAT A STRETCH! So now not only are we guilty by association, we are now guilty by association twice removed! WOW!

                  •  Then don't bloody well vote for him! nt (0+ / 0-)

                    Barracking for Barack.

                    by paintitblue on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:44:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  WAIT ... ! (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Albatross

                Are you suggesting that Obama should vet the ASSOCIATES of all of his ASSOCIATES? Is this really what you mean?? I wish you'd explain this to me - otherwise, I met be left with a thought that I wouldn't want to give voice to in this space.

              •  three degrees distant guilt by association (0+ / 0-)

                I don't understand why your head doesn't explode from so much intellectual dishonesty.

            •  He knows who gave the award. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              paintitblue

              He just keeps posting it anyway.

          •  No (0+ / 0-)

            That's a recent 30 second clip selected by Fox News in order to provide maximum shock value and get people to watch by taking it out of context.

            Interested in a student perspective on politics? Visit: http://www.umichdems.com/blog

            by ZachMartin88 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:05:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  And as we discussed before (0+ / 0-)

            there is nothing anti-Semitic in that sermon.

        •  Is Wright running for President? (0+ / 0-)

          Just asking.

          No, you're just a dishonest Clinton Clinging troll who spouts this garbage with no intent other than to smear Obama.

          Farrakhan has done a lot for the black community. Wright's daughter giving him an award doesn't indicate anti-semitism on her part, Wright's part, or Obama's part.

    •  As well as "doctors brought AIDS to the community (4+ / 0-)

      ", which is one step removed from the fringe Islamicist original "Jew doctors brought AIDS to the community".
      If he's your crazy uncle, put him away or get him treatment.

      Oprah? Nah, I'm voting however Jerry Springer tells me to.

      by Barry in MIA on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:14:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Do you think (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ohiobama, Leslie in KY, MAORCA

      Do you think Senator Obama agrees with any anti-Semitic views(if they are) that are espoused?

      I think Senator Obama has a track record of not only supporting the American Jewish community, but for Israels vital right to defend herself.

      I think he has a very strong pro-Israeli record.

      So the question is, do the words and biases of other people equate your own views?

      If that's the case, all three current candidates are in trouble.

      It's not a sign of weakness to learn from a mistake. It's a sign of stupidity to keep doing the same things over and over without ever learning~Dave Dial

      by DAVE DIAL on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:17:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Question (0+ / 0-)

        The question is why is Obama attending a church with anti-Semitic leanings.  He should be more sensitive to Jewish Americans.

        •  So has Oprah (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          skwimmer, Fineena, paintitblue

          she's attended services there, along with apparently a long list of Chicago "who's who's."  Is she an anti-semite too?  How far are you prepared to take this?

          "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

          by GN1927 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:21:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So What's the Point? (0+ / 0-)

            Last I checked, we expected more of our President than a talk show host.  

            Reverend Wright obviously has a lot of resentment and anger toward Israel and Israelis, based upon sermon clips which I am watching.

            •  So? (8+ / 0-)

              A) Rev. Wright is not a candidate for President of the United States

              B) Obama is not running for the President of Israel

              Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

              by Mad Kossack on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:28:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Oh, okay (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fbc21ca, paintitblue

              so Oprah escapes the guilt by association, but when selecting a president, we will ascribe to him every utterance issued by his freaking pastor.  Do you understand how ridiculous you are being?  How absurd?

              "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

              by GN1927 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:30:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, he doesn't understand that because he has (0+ / 0-)

                Zionism on the brain. People have called me a self-hating Jew but, no, it is those Jews who employ every possible argument, no matter how intellectually dishonest, in support of Israel and against its critics, including conflating anti-semitism with anti-Zionism and opposition to Israeli policy -- something that enables anti-semites who do the same thing -- those are the Jews I loathe.

            •  Which black churches supported the Clintons? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sagittarius, foldingBicycle

              1992? 1996?
              I'd be surprised if Wright's church weren't one of them.
              I'll bet the Clinton's were in his church.

              The turtle was tight in its shell for a long time. But at last its legs waved in the air, reaching for something to pull it over. -Steinbeck (Grapes of Wrath)

              by Ma Joad on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:30:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Care to link those mysterious clips? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Fineena

              Or will you stop spreading false rumors?

              •  I think that I heard that Wright said (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                paintitblue

                "Jesus loves Palestinians too."  I hope this is not the supposed "resentment" to which this commenter is alluding.

                "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

                by GN1927 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:37:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Here's A Link (0+ / 0-)

                http://www.youtube.com/...

                Reverend Wright:

                Last year's conference in Africa on racism.. the U.S. wouldn't participate in because somebody dared to point out the racism supported here and in Israel... I say that dirty word again...
                Everytime you say Israel, (African-Americans) get pretty quiet... don't get scared, don't get scared... You don't see the connection between 9-11 and the Israelis/Palestinians ... something wrong with you.

                •  This isn't anti-Semitic. (6+ / 0-)

                  I'm not even sure it's anti-Israel.  Criticizing Israel doesn't equal anti-Semitism.  If it did, then I'd be an anti-Semite.  And I'm Jewish.

                  •  It's plenty antisemitic because (0+ / 0-)

                    he references the blatantly antisemitic allegation that Jews, supported by Israel, planned the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center. These wackos contend that the Mossad aided Larry Silverstein in blowing up his own buildings.

                    You can't get more antisemitic than that.

                    •  Why do you keep inserting words (0+ / 0-)

                      like Jew into peoples mouths that did not say them. Maybe we should all think he is anti chicken. He at least said the word chicken when he said the chickens came home to roost.

                    •  You're a fucking stupid liar. (0+ / 0-)

                      I'm a Jew who isn't so stupid or dishonest as to so misrepresent what Wright is saying. Osama and Al Qaeda have explicitly stated that U.S. support of Israel and the oppression of Palestinians is one of the reasons that they attacked the U.S.

                      Oh, wait, you're a Hillary shill -- my subject line was redundant.

                      •  My mistake about Hillary shill. (0+ / 0-)

                        I mistook you for some other Hillary shill with "obama" in his name. But you're still a fucking stupid liar, the connection between 9-11 and the Israelis/Palestinians has nothing to do with the conspiracy crap about Mossad -- how fucking stupid can you get, when "Palestinians" has no place in that tinfoil crap?

                    •  Please supply the quote. (0+ / 0-)

                      I just don't recall hearing anything about Jews planning the 9/11 attacks.  That, of course, would be egregiously anti-Semitic.  But I don't think he said that.

                •  So you've changed your mind? (0+ / 0-)

                  Here's you earlier today:

                  Only Because You Asked... (0 / 0)
                  Reverend Wright:

                  Last year's conference in Africa on racism.. the U.S. wouldn't participate in because somebody dared to point out the racism supported here and in Israel... I say that dirty word again...
                  Everytime you say Israel, (African-Americans) get pretty quiet... don't get scared, don't get scared... You don't see the connection between 9-11 and the Israelis/Palestinians ... something wrong with you.

                  I really hate to be pulling the clip from Fox News (via Youtube), but just so you can listen for yourself.

                  http://www.youtube.com/...

                  I actually don't take these remarks as particularly anti-Semitic (he's criticisizing Israel's state policies, rather than Jewish people).  But it's obviously an uncomfortable discussion as he references with his comment "don't get scared.

                  So which is it?

                •  isn't he saying (0+ / 0-)

                  that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has caused terrorist acts around the world...including 9-11?

                  That's a common assessment, no?

                  Everytime you say Israel, (African-Americans) get pretty quiet... don't get scared, don't get scared... You don't see the connection between 9-11 and the Israelis/Palestinians ... something wrong with you.

              •  there's talk that Jon Stewart aired worse stuff (0+ / 0-)

                last year.

                And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

                by amberglow on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:51:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  What clips? (0+ / 0-)

              You seem to have changed your tune from earlier today - actually several times today.

              What's up with you?  Are you just a provocateur?

            •  I have anger toward Israel and Israelis but (0+ / 0-)

              I'm a Jew, not an anti-semite. And people like you who conflate opposition to Israeli policy with anti-semitism increase my anger.

              we expected more of our President than a talk show host.

              Wright isn't a Presidential candidate. Obama and Wright disagree about Israel; that's no reason for Obama to leave or denounce the church, especially when Wright is retiring.

              Why doesn't you head explode from all the intellectual dishonesty stuffed into it?

          •  Oprah! (0+ / 0-)

            [Oprah] attended services there, along with apparently a long list of Chicago "who's who's."  Is she an anti-semite too?

            If Oprah the "who's whos" are claiming Wright as a spiritual mentor, consulting him before taking major political decisions, and naming their political manifestos after his sermons, then yes, I have a problem with them, too.

        •  Bull (11+ / 0-)

          Just because some people believe that the Israelis treatment of the Palestinians is an issue, doesn't make them an anti-Semite.

          Nor does it mean that they talk about it every day.

          Do you know that the link you gave to that video was from a right-wing YouTuber?

          Is this what we are now? And what right do you have to tell him to be "more sensitive to Jewish Americans"? He has a PROVEN track record of supporting Israel. It's a fact.

          I'm a Catholic and my church says a lot of stupid things too, and I belong to SPLC and Tolerance.org. So screw your guilt by association innuendos.

          People are allowed to have their OWN political views. If you want to post something about what Senator Obama said, do it.

          Otherwise, ........

          It's not a sign of weakness to learn from a mistake. It's a sign of stupidity to keep doing the same things over and over without ever learning~Dave Dial

          by DAVE DIAL on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:30:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well said, and I agree. (4+ / 0-)

            I should add that I'm Jewish, and I too critique Israel.  And, of course, in the mix of 9/11 is our failure to broker a peace agreement with the Israelis and Palestinians.  What's wrong with acknowledging that?

          •  Seconded (thirded?) here. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Twilightsol

            The criticizing Israeli actions=anti-Semitism meme is pervasive and insidious, and keeps us from talking about the real foreign policy issues in the world that are genuinely making us less safe.

            Since this is the Biblical thread, I'll use a Parable: if your brother is beating his wife, do you go to your brother and say "Brother, you are a good man and I love you, but beating your wife is wrong and you must stop," or do you say to yourself "I love my brother, so beating one's wife must be okay," and start beating your  own wife?

        •  Today was Palm Sunday (0+ / 0-)

          and my priest had a scathing tone about how the Jews killed Jesus.

          What's madness but nobility of the soul at odds with circumstance?

          by slinkerwink on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:51:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, like those who run his campaign (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maconblue

          Like you know, David Axelrod...

        •  The question is... (0+ / 0-)

          ...why is Senator Clinton sending earmarks to Calvin Butts and getting endorsements from him.

          And why won't Hillary Clinton release her tax returns and earmarks?

          9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

          by varro on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:19:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Where are the anti-Semitic leanings? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Fineena

          Cite where Wright is saying something anti-Semitic, and I'll believe you.  Citing Farakhan as a great man is something I disagree with, but I wouldn't say that in and of itself is anti-Semitic.  Got anything else?

        •  Excuse me? (0+ / 0-)

          a church with anti-Semitic leanings

          You need to back that up!  So the entire church is anti-Semitic?

          If that's so, why did the Jewish community in Chicago support Obama in his elections?

        •  Hate to tell you but ALL churches have (0+ / 0-)

          an "antisemitic leaning." It's called Christianity. Not that long ago it was standard fare to refer to Jews as "Christ-killers" -- in church. The New Testament is replete with overt antisemitism.

          This is a very unfortunate fact, but we can't exactly blame every churchgoer for it. The next logial step would be to say that only Jews and Muslims can run for President.

        •  It's not a church w/ anti-semitic leanings, (0+ / 0-)

          you lying piece of Clinton Clinging troll scum.

    •  Good, then don't vote (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      thurst, Dar Nirron, Fineena, paintitblue

      for Pastor Wright for president.

      Of all the ridiculous...

      "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

      by GN1927 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:19:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So if he was an anti-Semite (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Fineena, Ohiobama

      then he would be in trouble. He doesn't seem to be. If you have a link to anti-Semetic comments, please share it with us. If not, stop making the accusation.

      If anyone's caught taking graft and I don't get my share, we stand 'em up against the wall and pop goes the weasel. - Marx

      by kitebro on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:48:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, I know how much you're bothered. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      paintitblue

      Don't you get tired of posting the same thing over and over again?

    •  Trolls try to make it stick. (0+ / 0-)

      But it's the association with anti-Semites such as Louis Farrakhan

      The ADL says Wright's not an anti-semite, and you trot out this filthy three-degrees-removed guilt-by-association hit-piece talking point against Obama? God damn you.

      Wright's strident criticism of Israel

      God damn Israel and Zionism. And don't you dare call this Jew an anti-semite.

      which may be most damaging in the general election

      God damn you. Wright isn't running for President. I wish Obama shared his criticism of Israel.

  •  Righteous diary! (7+ / 0-)

    I just saw "Rendition" for the first time on video last night, and, yes, violence and torture only beget more violence and torture.

    "It does not require many words to speak the truth." -- Chief Joseph, native American leader (1840-1904)

    by highfive on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:03:53 PM PDT

  •  I was thinking about this the other day (14+ / 0-)

    not directly about the Obama campaign, but Jesus.  When Jesus went into the Jerusalem synagogue and read he declared a ritual year for debt forgiveness and leveling of poverty--which the Saducees and PHarisees would either not have seen as his authoity to declare, or else been outraged by the embarassment and the obligation.

    It was shocking, a mob formed right there.

    This story is almost completely forgotten for all the gospels.  It is dishonest to leave it without its context.  It was shocking.

    And Jesus' preaching in the synagogue was almost entirely "class baiting".

    The media narrative is fundamentally dishonest.  "God damn" becomes seen entirely through political lenses because it has no context in the media's mind.  "Wright apparently hates America".

    Republicans believe in gvmt. intervention for bankers and investors, I believe in intervention for the meek and lowly -- Nulwee.

    by Nulwee on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:04:08 PM PDT

    •  If Wright hates America so do Hagee, etc. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      digno dave, varro, barath, Nulwee, Fineena

      They all talk about wrath of God on the country. Wright for social injustice. Hagee, Robertson, Parsley, etc.

      Now I don't know why Hagee, Robertson and company don't get tagged with the same label. I mean they are all seen as kooks by the majority, but only liberal religious nuts are seen as anti-american. When in fact fundamentalist, literalist Christians right and left hate this country. They actually have to because Jesus was not a statist. It is hard to be a fundamentalist and be loyal to your country.

      Read the Day of Affirmation Address by RFK!

      by Common Cents on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:32:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I honestly think (25+ / 0-)

    this is the best thing ever posted here.

    Wow!

    A couple other things that are somewhat related...

    Robertson and Falwell said after 9/11 that it was the fault of gays and abortionists.

    Wright said we're to blame, because of our foreign policy.

    The contrast just interests me.

    Also. the AIDS thing. The government didn't create it, absolutely, but Reagan didn't do much to help the crisis from spreading.

    •  I didn't see your post and just posted this (5+ / 0-)
      We need to say this more. When Robertson endorsed Rudy. there was no suggestion that such increndiary remarks had no place in a campaign. It was all about, "Gee, will this make any difference in how evalngelicals feel about Rudy?"

      We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:14:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly... everyone (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        llamaRCA

        is being so hypocritical.
        I even wrote a diary yesterday about this issue, with more quotes from people who've said controversial things.

        And haha, this place is so weird. My first comment in this thread has gotten 11 recs or so, yet, the other day I was called a conspiracy theorist for saying that Reagan didn't do anything about AIDS (even though I provided a link to a story in the San Francisco Chronicle about it.)

        I guess it just depends on moods.

  •  Let it pass. (5+ / 0-)

    Forget Wright, Ferraro, Farrakhan, Resko, Hzu, etc. It's old and tired. Let's talk about the candidates themselves.

    Barack Obama is the unstoppable force, Hillary Clinton the immovable object.

    by Decih on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:04:11 PM PDT

  •  Since you asked (7+ / 0-)

    Do I think that 9/11 was the "chickens coming home to roost?"  Yeah, I pretty much do.

    Then you and I are riding two very different trains.

    If Venus is made of ketchup and lions play pinochle, why doesn't the framistan frizzmaz the flomaton?

    by zemblan on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:04:38 PM PDT

    •  EXCELLENT response to that, zemblan... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nhc1978, Eric S

      "different trains" or, put another way, "I know where you're headed and you can let me out right there on the corner."

    •  I think DT means (14+ / 0-)

      our foreign policy up to that point was of such an egregious nature, retaliation was pretty likely.  I don't think he meant we deserved what happened, and certainly not that those who died deserved it (rather our policies lead to some serious animosity towards us).
      Please correct me if I'm wrong DT.

      "Homo sapiens is the only species on the planet that will follow ... an unstable leader." Cesar Millan

      by middleagedhousewife on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:12:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why Don't You Explain Why You Disagree? (14+ / 0-)

      I happen to agree with the perception of the "chickens coming home to roost;" and, as others have noted, that doesn't mean we support jihad and terrorism; but when you actively assist in a people's oppression -- even if you are not doing it yourself; and you neglect to help those in need, especially if they have helped you; well, resentment festers, and there is an understandable desire to strike back

      Let's not talk about the Israel/Palestine conflict, which has far too many... hmmm... "subtleties"... (and emotional charge) to bring up here. How about our installing and propping up the Shah in Iran, giving his police the training necessary to crush their opponents, and the arms necessary to enforce it? Likewise, our support of the Saudi monarchy against their own people? How about the way we walked away from Afghanistan after they kicked Soviet butt at our cheer leading? or Papa Bush encouraging the Shia to rise up against Saddam, and then letting them be crushed?

      And it's not just the Middle East; we've done the same in Central and South America, in the Philippines, and South-East Asia. And it's not just us, so it's not a matter of 'Blaming America First'; this is how callously Empires behave. Check out the almost identical British, Spanish, and French records in the Middle East, throughout Africa, through East Asia.

      It's called refusing to learn from history!!

      "You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -Abbie Hoffman

      by Uthaclena on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:26:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Since You Answered (5+ / 0-)

      Do you think that if someone makes connections between U.S. policies and 9/11, that means that we deserved it? I don't think anyone in the Trade Center deserved the terrible fate they suffered that day, and you can count me among Osama bin Laden's mortal enemies, but do you really think those guys just "hated us for our freedom"? Good grief! They hated us for our military bases in Saudi Arabia (where most of the attackers came from), for the situation in Palestine, and for the sanctions on Iraq. That's what they said, anyway. I think a lot of our foreign policy needs serious review, and that's putting it mildly. The Al Qaeda response to those policies is sheer madness and unforgivable, but it did not appear magically in a vacuum. Or are you on that train that says it all happened because of gay marriage?

      It is now up to all of us to take it back. -- Howard Zinn

      by donaldw6 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:34:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  People cheered (0+ / 0-)

        when he said the chickens were coming home to roost.  Why not weep at the tragedy?

        •  cheering isn't unusual (0+ / 0-)

          perhaps they were expressing the fact that they agreed with the argument he was making. you know kind of like when people cheer in response to a statement or claim made at a rally even if it doesn't express a happy sentiment...

        •  They cheered at a truth being told. And now (0+ / 0-)

          it's about not just Wright but the congregation as well? Just who else is Obama responsible for?

          •  I did't say Obama is responsible (0+ / 0-)

            for the congregation, only that the cheering was unnerving.

            •  You didn't say the cheering was unnerving. (0+ / 0-)

              I love how people say "I only said ..." when they never said that at all. If it's unnerving, that's your reaction and you should take responsibility for it. But no, you complained that they cheered rather than wept, which is dang silly. When I go to political rallies and people speak truth to power, like "Bush lied. People died.", people applaud, they don't weep. So your complaint, like almost all complaints on this matter, impose an absurd standard that no one would think of imposing in other circumstances. It's intellectually dishonest, and you really ought to think hard on why you find Wright and his congregation's response so unnerving.

    •  Violence breeds violence. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lisactal

      That's MLK. The "chickens coming home to roost" is Malcolm X.  They both mean essentially the same thing, but the latter seems somehow to glory in the boomerang effect, while the former mourns it.  It's all in the tone.  And Wright's tone, so soon after 9/11, was all wrong.

      •  "Seems somehow" (0+ / 0-)

        Hey, I guess Obama can't be President becaue of how Wright's statement -- which Obama has rejected -- "seems somehow" to you.

        •  Umm. . . I'm an Obama supporter, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sharoney

          but I hope if this site can rightly accept and champion the idea of critiquing one's country as a duty, then this site can also be a place of critiquing one's own candidate. . . or, in this case, one's own candidate's minister.  I never said Obama can't be President.  That'd make little sense since I voted for him and plan to vote for him again in the general.  I did critique the tone of Wright's sermon.  And, as far as I know, that's all I critiqued.  And I stand by that critique.

          •  And I critiqued your silly critique. (0+ / 0-)

            "seems somehow" isn't much of a critique. There's no glorifying in Wright's words; that is pure projection, not an honest evaluation.

            •  I appreciate your critique of my critique, (0+ / 0-)

              but I think it's an acceptable thing to evaluate tone.  I might be wrong in my evaluation, but there didn't seem to be much empathy in what he was saying.  If my child had died in the World Trade Center bombing, I wouldn't have liked to have heard that particular sermon so close to my child's death.  I would have wanted to hear the critique, just not quite in that way.  And I certainly wouldn't have liked to have heard cheering about it.

              Again, I might be wrong in my interpretation, but I think it's a fair interpretation from the evidence of that video.

              Let me make it clear: the idea that violence breeds violence--the fundamental idea behind Wright's sermon--I agree with.  And I agree that it's the preacher's role sometimes to be prophetic to culture.  It's the presentation and timing I disagree with.  And, of course, I don't think this should at all affect Obama's nomination or election to the Presidency.  Obama is not Wright.

              •  bully for you (0+ / 0-)

                I really don't think much of people who pluck something out of context and then blow it up into a characterization of a person. I've said plenty of similar things myself; I had an email exchange with Noam Chomsky on 9/12 when he sent me some articles about blowback. There's something deeply intellectually dishonest about concluding from that that we lack empathy for the victims.

    •  You're riding the no-guilt empirialist train. (0+ / 0-)

      God damn you.

  •  I am pretty left wing, but (12+ / 0-)

    I disagree with your comment here:

    Do I think that 9/11 was the "chickens coming home to roost?"  Yeah, I pretty much do.

    I understand empire and imperialism, and have for a long time.  Nonetheless, I disagree.

    As for Rev. Wright, I agree with him on a lot of fundamental isssues, but disagree with some of his statemnts.

    I also oppose the attacks on Barack Obama based on his pastor's statements.  Barack Obama speaks for himself.  It is a classic "guilt by association" attack that is harming the Democratic Party.

    "They're going to give their power away when we take their power away." John Edwards

    by TomP on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:04:40 PM PDT

    •  You mean only our acts of aggression (10+ / 0-)

      are things you see as just?  I would say you have it backwards.  Those who are put down will rise up.  The answer is to stop putting them down.

      An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

      by don mikulecky on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:08:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, bullshit. (6+ / 1-)

        It is a lot more complex than you describe.

        The Islamic fundamentalists are reactionary forces.  I fundamentally reject your world view.

        One can be an anti-imperialist without endorsing the views you promote.  

        Infantile leftism is your game, as I see it.  

        "They're going to give their power away when we take their power away." John Edwards

        by TomP on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:19:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not saying "it's our fault" (14+ / 0-)

          Only that "our actions have consequences" included in which is the hatred directed toward us.  Are there other causes?  Absolutely.  Is our activity overseas the primary cause?  I don't even know how to measure.

          It may well be that hatred is something we must bear -- at least on occasion -- in support of principle.  

          But that doesn't mean that cause and effect are no longer associated.

          •  We created the Iranian Revolution. (7+ / 0-)

            That was us.  All our doing.  Our hands are dirty.  I don't want to overextend, but if we can start by acknowledging that it was our fault for doing something VERY bad that we shouldn't have been doing, then maybe we can start dealing maturely with the rest of our history?

            •  Let he who is w/o sin cast first plane? (0+ / 0-)

              I don't understand your point. I am with you on America's past. I'm not aware that the information is hidden. Only idiots are unaware of our history and you can't suffer fools or say we are hiding the fact because the wilfully ignorant don't know something.

              It also doesn't follow from acknowledgement of our failures that people on 9/11 deserved to die.

              Read the Day of Affirmation Address by RFK!

              by Common Cents on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:48:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't think the assertion is those individuals (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tnichlsn

                in particular deserved to die, rather it should be expected that people would die when the violence we beget returned to haunt us.

                The Iraq war cost another $48,000 in the time it took you to read this sentence. - QT

                by kafkaesque on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:54:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  But those individuals in particular did die. (0+ / 0-)

                  That is the central issue (especially for them). Until we get out of this trap that it is in any way acceptable to offer blood in response to blood, this will continue to happen. Wright is one who indicates (as per the Bible) that violence not only will, but should beget violence.

                  Also I find it very unlikely that the only reason 9/11 happened was our previous actions. Religious fanaticism doesn't have a basis in reality so it is highly unlikely that they will use any justification to continue. Belief drives action. You have to believe virgins await you in paradise before you fly the plane into the building. Remember that.

                  Changing policy in the region will not alone make us safe.

                  Read the Day of Affirmation Address by RFK!

                  by Common Cents on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:59:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Not to get existential here (5+ / 0-)

                    but you can't suggest that those people who died on 9/11 are any more or less blameworthy than the women and babies, and innocent men for that matter, who died at the hands of the Shah of Iran, or Saddam Hussein, when we supported both of those despots.

                    I'm not saying that life is interchangeable, but I'm also not saying that American life is more valuable than non-Americans. If those on 9/11 didn't deserve death, than neither did the Iranians, Iraqis, Afghanis and others who died - with support from us.

                    American hands are dirty here. You can't avoid it just because its ugly. We need a new paradigm in this joint called the U.S. Or maybe a RE-NEWED paradigm. We have got to move away from this lust for violence that has been with this country since the first White man landed. Don't turn away from that fact. If you turn away, you'll never change it.

                    •  And our soldiers and the civilians who have now (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      vernonbc

                      died because of lies.  The number is far far greater than the death toll for 9/11 as bad as thet was.  We will never end the killing this way it is time to stop.

                      An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

                      by don mikulecky on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:16:44 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  I never said acceptable; I said expected n/t (0+ / 0-)

                    The Iraq war cost another $48,000 in the time it took you to read this sentence. - QT

                    by kafkaesque on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:49:54 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Obviously. (0+ / 0-)

                      Common Cents is a lying stupid ass to say "Wright is one who indicates (as per the Bible) that violence not only will, but should beget violence". It's the stupidity of the intellectually dishonest who bend logic and fact to fit their position rather than deriving their position from logic and fact.

                  •  He didn't say "should". Why do you lie? (0+ / 0-)

                    "live by the sword, die by the sword" doesn't mean the sword wielder should die. When police and social workers warn some gangbanger that his life style will likely lead to his demise, they don't mean that it should.  So, are you incredibly stupid, or is it that you cling so tightly to some position that it makes you stupid?

              •  The fact is that... (0+ / 0-)

                a lot of people don't really know about our "history" and taught a certain brand of "history" which neglects a lot of different. And even if people know the history, they can begin to push it aside or deal with it in different ways. They can disengage from it, or focus on materialism, or any number of things. It's not all that difficult.

                •  neglects a lot of different aspects of our past** (0+ / 0-)
                •  There is no control over info anymore. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  foldingBicycle

                  The internet has decentralized the flow of information. I can take you to the history section of the commercialized Barnes and Noble and show you book after book on our tortured history on slavery, Native Americans, and imperialism. It is all out there and you'd be shocked how many people know it.

                  Some people rationalize it. But they rationalize the atrocities of the Bible as well. The fact is that they know what happened.

                  Read the Day of Affirmation Address by RFK!

                  by Common Cents on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:01:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Don't put words in our mouths. No one deserves (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tnichlsn, Sagittarius

                to die.  If you reduce people to a state where they feel like there is nothing more to loose they become dangerous to you.  You can avoid doing that to people.  Now do you understand?

                An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

                by don mikulecky on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:39:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  ridiculous strawman (0+ / 0-)

                When all your correspondents tell you they don't thing that the people who died on 9/11 deserved it, why do you write "It also doesn't follow from acknowledgement of our failures that people on 9/11 deserved to die"? Intellectual dishonesty? Brain disease?

                While typing this, I saw Wright's statements on Meet the Press. He spoke about us bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki without blinking an eye, and now our chickens are back in our backyard; they have come home to roost. That isn't at all about justice, unless you think that he's saying that bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was just.

          •  That isn't what Wright meant. (0+ / 0-)

            You are arguing a position that is far too moderated to be associated with what Wright was saying.

            Read the Day of Affirmation Address by RFK!

            by Common Cents on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:46:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  oh fucking really? (7+ / 0-)

          were the Nicaraguans also "reactionary forces"?

          the El Salvadorans?

          the Hondurans?

          the Guatemalans?

          the Vietnamese?

          what other nations' people is it permissible, in your opinion, to slaughter wholesale without expecting, and deserving, payback?

          Clinton IS a monster.

          by RabidNation on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:33:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  the terrorists are only terrorists when they are (8+ / 0-)

          attacking US civilians. When it's our bombs or hired thugs killing innocents it's acceptable collateral damage. And any thoughts of lingering resentment and revenge are totally unjustified.

          The Islamic fundamentalists are reactionary forces.

          Yeah, they're reacting to the fucked-up approach to foreign policy we practice in/on the middle east...

          Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org Your voice is needed!

          by tnichlsn on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:58:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, and just wait til the Kos-Watchers... (3+ / 0-)

      ...get a load of that latest tidbit on the front page of the site.

  •  You've got an awfully lot of nerve (28+ / 0-)

    bringing the words of Jesus of Nazareth into any discussion of Christianity. I received an e mail the other day which pointed out that Jesus was a Jew, never saluted the American flag, and hadn't voted for GWB. What kind of example is that for Christian America?

    Sit down and read. Educate yourself for the struggle to come. Mary Harris "Mother" Jones

    by DaNang65 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:05:09 PM PDT

  •  Best post of the weekend, DT! (10+ / 0-)

    That really crystalizes it.  It should be sent to the Obama campaign so they can use it as a press release.

    Nice job.

    -

    "Judge me on the content of my character, not the underwear on my head."

    by Bill in Portland Maine on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:05:35 PM PDT

  •  Sweet Jesus (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    devtob, catfood

     Geez, the 'tirade' by Rev. Wright sounds a lot like the Sermon on the Mount.  Yeah, so where is the outrage, huh?
     

  •  I long for the day when people like Sen. Obama (6+ / 0-)

    will not have to distance themselves from the rightious condemnation of evil.  We need more Reverend Wrights until what he is saying becomes unneccessary!

    An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

    by don mikulecky on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:06:20 PM PDT

  •  Just my two cents (0+ / 0-)

    I think it's time to let this one go. It will be what it will be. Time to leave it to the Obama campaign to deal with.  At some point, in trying to address it, you start to fuel the fire, not tamp it down. And to protest too much.

    Sometimes I think it's a sin, when I feel like I'm winning when I'm losing again.
    -Gordon Lightfoot, 'Sundown'

    by Free Spirit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:06:36 PM PDT

  •  Um, it's pretty obvious to me (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Comte de Saint Germain, Lisactal

    that this guy and his comments are radioactive.

    Not the first time I've had that opinion about a prominent Obama supporter. . .

  •  we almost went to a UCC service this morning (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Albatross, MAORCA

    This being Nashville, I'm sure they are getting some flak from the talk radio set and could use the support of a couple lapsed unitarians.

    Ultimately, the lapsed won out and we didn't get out of bed until 2.

  •  Your point is well made. I have a Question: (0+ / 0-)

    I spent a large part of this afternoon discussing this topic with a friend. I wish you had posted this diary several hours ago!

    I would like to pose a question to the Jewish members of this community:  how did you respond to the anti-Semitic aspects of Rev. Wright's words?  What was your response to the church's acceptance/ honoring of Rev Farakahm?

    •  I'll try to give a partial answer (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wanda517, San Diego Dave

      One of the challenges of marginalized groups is that they compete for resources and public outrage/support. It's also why Obama is surprising in his open support of the LGBT lobby since the black church is also typically anti-homosexuality.

      There is clearly anti-semitism in the support of Farrakhn. I think we are being led into a very different worldview through the Obama campaign - a mostly invisible narrative that whites have wanted to ignore or suppress.

      What is mind-bendingly refreshing is that Obama transcends these values despite being surrounded by them. (I credit his mother!)

      •  yes -- Obama's mother was quite a woman (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JulieUnplugged, San Diego Dave

        however the MSN is going beat this story to death and inadequately cover Obama's responses (as in MTP today) if they bother to acknowledge his responses at all.  I fear that many people will hear ONLY Rev Wright's angry and anti-Semitic remarks and not Obama's renunciation and explanation of how and why he rejects those positions.  

        I was also unhappy that Russet quoted pieces from the Sun Times and Tribute interviews with Obama where he revealed more connections with Rezko, but he failed to quote that both papers were more than satisfied with how Obama responded to their question and explained the relationship.

      •  "the black church" (0+ / 0-)

        When you're talking generically about "the black church," Trinity UCC is a little different from the stereotype.

        You could probably say that "the black church" in general is anti-homosexuality.  The UCC denomination as a whole, on the other hand, is very open to GLBT people.  Individual congregations have great latitude, but the mainstream of UCC practice is quite positive on GLBT issues.

        In that light, it's not so strange that Obama is generally progressive on LGBT issues even though he identifies with a predominantly Black congregation (which happens to be part of a fairly white denomination).

        So, don't assume that an activist, predominantly Black UCC congregation is necessarily anti-homosexual. To coin a phrase, the UCC is a pretty big tent.

    •  What do you mean by the anti-Semitic (4+ / 0-)

      aspects to Rev. Wright's words?   Which words did he say that were anti-Semitic?  Are you talking only about the Farakhan issue?  Give me a quote, and I'll respond.  So far, I've seen no indication that Rev. Wright's words are anti-Semitic.

      •  It's unfortunate that anti-semitism is so often (0+ / 0-)

        the only lens through which Farrakhan is seen.  He is a leader in helping the poor and running programs in inner city neighborhoods and especially in helping black people adjust to life after being released from prison. It is this side of Farrakhan that receives Wright's support and is honored by other black organizations.

    •  When did you stop beating your spouse? (0+ / 0-)

      There are no anti-semitic aspects of Wright's words. He's no more anti-semitic than this Jew(ish atheist) is.

      What was your response to the church's acceptance/ honoring of Rev Farakahm?

      Oh, fuck you and this bullshit. Wright's daughters selected Farrakhan for an award for his good work in Chicago, not for anti-semitism, and this has no fucking thing whatsoever to do with Obama. God damn Zionists who poison everything with their overreaching defense of the crimes of the state of Israel.

  •  My favorite, from Jesus. (7+ / 0-)

    "Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers."

    Luke 11:46

    I try to remember this when I get too aggressive in court.  

    Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

    by SpamNunn on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:08:18 PM PDT

  •  Good Post (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    devtob, allie123, don mikulecky

    Wish I'd said it.

  •  I'm not sure (0+ / 0-)

    going here (here being Wright's comments) yet again is wise, but mostly I'm unsure--given how shaky our economy is--that the concept of divine retribution for a country's (collective? selective?) misdeeds, provides any comfort. If the economy crashes, to then say we deserved it, besides being cold comfort, only begs the hindsight question of who "we" are: since "we" don't all work on Wall Street, or for the Fed, Halliburton, Exxon-Mobil, Blackwater, etc. Unfortunately, the ones who often suffer the worst during hard times are the ones who least deserve it (see Enron). Rather than retribution, reconciliation may also be required. (Speaking of which, can we talk about corporate capitalism's excesses and contradictions now?)

  •  America can't handle the truth! (7+ / 0-)

    Especially the repugs!

    Even if you volunteer to protect your country by serving in the military, do not dare wake us up from our dream that America can do no wrong!

    You dont win an election, and you dont serve a democracy by trying to keep people out, you're supposed to try and bring them in...--Barack Obama

    by wscrews on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:09:12 PM PDT

  •  Such an extremist! (0+ / 0-)

    And the coandidates aren't falling all over each other to denounce and reject this commie?  Looks like the MSM and the Sunday talk hosts are falling down on their job!

  •  You're preaching to the choir, man (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Larry Bailey, allie123

    This will be the year of the 5-second campaign ad ...

    You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

    by Clem Yeobright on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:09:55 PM PDT

  •  Excellent post (5+ / 0-)

    Thank you for this.  I only wish those who claim liberal & progressive values would permit themselves to see what you have. If they would, we could push back against the old politics that make it possible to drive this kind of dishonesty, and possibly win the November election w/ a united party.

    Poor government comes about when good citizens sit on their hands instead of standing on their feet.' -- Robert Baker

    by jaysunb on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:10:14 PM PDT

  •  The Whole Point is to Stampede Support Groups (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    devtob, ActivistGuy

    and the power structure more than individual voters. Same with the "dangerous cult" meme.

    Nobody who matters in this issue could care less what words trace to which religious figure in what context.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:10:20 PM PDT

  •  I know Jesus. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Polticalrecluse

    Jesus is a friend of mine.
    Rev. Wright is no Jesus.

    Oprah? Nah, I'm voting however Jerry Springer tells me to.

    by Barry in MIA on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:10:33 PM PDT

  •  Suspected chickens learning to fly even. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    devtob, valadon, zenobia, Joga

    While I myself prefer level-headed, less belicose discussions of what topics Wright was addressing, I too saw what he was trying to say and do in preaching in such manner. We had so many "dots" left unconnected for whatever reasons prior to 9/11, America's incompetence should be heavily scrutinized.

    "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

    by Skid on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:10:50 PM PDT

  •  Praise you, devilstower :) (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    middleagedhousewife, allie123
  •  Damn Lincoln! (10+ / 0-)

    I posted this earlier, but I would remind everyone what Lincoln said in his Second Inaugural. Woe unto the world because of offences!

    Both parties deprecated war; but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive; and the other would accept war rather than let it perish. And the war came.

    One eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the Southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was, somehow, the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union, even by war; while the government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has his own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope--fervently do we pray--that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether"

    Isn't Lincoln saying that the Civil War is God's wills?  In other words, the chickens have come home to roost.

    Lincoln hated America! And, we have put this hate in his monument in DC!

    Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren. Bertolt Brecht

    by MoDem on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:11:06 PM PDT

  •  Jesus, Muhammad, America & Irony (10+ / 0-)

    As someone who's a huge reader on religion, I find it somewhat ironic that "Christian" capitalist America has such a huge problem with Islam.  As far as I know, Muhammad was the only religious figure of his rank who was a businessman. Moreover his first wife was very wealthy (-- she was also his boss). He tried to "clean up" business and preached that charity was an essential pillar of Islam but you could make a strong argument that Islam is compatible with capitalism (as long as workers are treated with dignity).

    Now let's look at Jesus.  When he wasn't railing against the PTB, he was comforting the poor.  He turned over the tables of the money lenders.  Unless you count his work as a carpenter, he never ran a business. He said very clearly that rich men don't get into Heaven (unless they can pull of that camel into the eye of needle miracle).

    I ask (without snark and with totaly sincerity), if anyone can show me how Jesus is compatible with the kind of Capitalism practiced in America today, please explain it to me.  I totally get why Wright, as a follower of Jesus, would be outraged by our excesses (even if I find his language unfortunate.)  But please, honestly, someone explain to me how the Christ, if he returned today, would bless what is going on with America right now.

    "It is time to be patriotic about something other than war" - John Edwards

    by Valhalla on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:11:23 PM PDT

    •  Ignorancy and hypocrisy. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Brooke In Seattle, esquimaux

      That's how in my view. Most US christians haven't really read the bible, but rather the fire and brimstone highlighted passages. Plus, the stories are so archaic that many really don't believe but instead give lip-service to Jesus and go back to scoffing at the bum on the sidewalk in front of Starbucks.

      "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

      by Skid on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:32:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But don't Evangelicals read the Bible? (0+ / 0-)

        Far Left-wing Christian preachers like Wright make sense to me because Jesus was quite a leftist.  But surely Falwell, Roberston, Hagee, and the righties have read the Bible.  I am honestly trying to understand how they reconcile support of right-wing economics with Jesus.  I just don't get it.  What am I missing?

        "It is time to be patriotic about something other than war" - John Edwards

        by Valhalla on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:13:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Watered down Jesus, but xtra added vitriol. (0+ / 0-)

          As far as I can tell, what happens w/Falwell etc is that the "fire and brimstone" stuff of the Old and New testaments sells bigtime in controling people, then when you have the people behind you, tell them they are persecuted like the early christians that followed Jesus. Falwell etc all learned the trick of using Jesus' teachings of compassion as a veil for unabashed indoctrination (or damn near slave labor).

          "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

          by Skid on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:26:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Old skool Televangelists also (0+ / 0-)

          would twist Jesus' words much as BushCo tries to twist the Constitution. I actually heard one on The God Channel or whatever say that Jesus actually meant you could be rich if you spread the word of God, thus trying to absolve their own gluttony of mansions and gold plated churches, oh yeah and diamond mines. Jesus LOVED diamond mines. Pat Robertson said so.

          "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

          by Skid on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:34:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  many christians aren't buying what Wright said (0+ / 0-)

        patriotism to America will not allow it.

    •  Jesus also told you to pay your taxes, don't get (0+ / 0-)

      divorced, be a good soldier (actually tax collector), stop sinning and a bunch of other things which probably don't sit well with a large portion of the crowd here.
      He also reminded those in power that his kingdom was not of this world. I don't recall him standing up for the Peoples Front of Judea or the Judean Peoples Front (bloody splinter group).

      you think you're so clever and classless and free, but you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see- J L

      by the fan man on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:22:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Unfortunately, "damning the rich," (11+ / 0-)

    or even mentioning class as a political matter, is something the corporate media do not like at all.

    As the absolutely absurd coverage of Edwards this year re-confirms.

    Of course, the corporate media protect the interests of their bosses.

    But it is cognitively dissonant that Republican Christianists, who believe everything in the Bible is God's writ, never ever mention the camel/eye of the needle thing.

    The Republicans want to cut YOUR Social Security benefits.

    by devtob on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:11:46 PM PDT

    •  Remember when Bush accused the Dem's of (10+ / 0-)

      practicing class warfare - my response was that it most certainly was class warfare - and we (the vast majority of Americans) were losing.  And it was being done in the name of being a "good Christian" politician.  

      •  No shit. I woulda been all over that like a (4+ / 0-)

        cheap suit in a May rain.

        Dude, you ain't fooling a soul.  You've been raping our people's treasury for decades.  You want class warfare?  We'll give you class warfare.  Start with preparing your own fucking food.  Pttttuuuuiiiiiiiii......

        Class warfare.  I think we should start wearing guillotine lapel pins.  Kind of a little let them eat cake message.

        We live in a fiduciary economy.  When people lose faith, even the richest are poor.

        The difference between the right word, and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and lightning bugs. M.Twain

        by patarico adamasso on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:31:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think it's America's talent for denial... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      devtob

      ...which makes things like this work for Rethugs.

      Everyone thinks they're rich, even though they're in the vast middle-class.  Advertising and the sets of TV shows perpetuate it as well.

      Allying yourself with what is best for lower-middle or middle-class people isn't "socialist" - it's worse.  It's admitting you aren't a special little snowflake totally in control of your own finances.  

      Let's face it - you are not guaranteed a job for life like you were in the 1950s.  If the CEO decides he needs more ivory backscratchers, you're fired downsized or "right-sized", no matter how good of an employee you are.  

      And going from $1000 - 1500 a week in middle-class pay to $429 a week in unemployment is a quick ticket to my office for a bankruptcy filing...

      9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

      by varro on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:29:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wrights comments are pretty cosistent with a lot (7+ / 0-)

    of people in the progressive side of the political spectrum: e.g. American foreign policy being the biggest enemy of America. I think if wright used less Black specific vocabulary and didn't wear afro centric clothing he would be a Nation columnist.

  •  From a great Kos diary... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wscrews, allie123, MAORCA

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    For those who may have missed this great Kos diary by PolitX, I'm posting the link here.  What an anitidote to the Pastor Wright stuff.  We probably aren't going to see these on TV, but check out these two videos.  One by a Pastor who herself is a member at Obama's church, and the other by the new Pastor there.

    Real scary people, Huh?

  •  There will be blood (7+ / 0-)

    You wanna win the battle and lose the war,....keep it up.

    -4.13 -5.90. There is no one here who thinks like me. So lower or raise your expectations accordingly.

    by Polticalrecluse on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:14:25 PM PDT

  •  Up until yesterday, I always had the feeling... (5+ / 0-)

    ...that Daily Kos was largely a religion-free zone.  Sure, we had a few confessed religious folk (and were pleased to have them), but it seemed to me the majority here had a fairly easy time with crude language and some pretty un-religious attacks on others here and certainly on opposing politicians.  So, it is with some surprise that I'm reading all the Jesus quotes yesterday and today.  I suppose it only goes to prove that the Lord is always there when you need him.

  •  Pushing America To live up to It's (7+ / 0-)

    Promise is patriotic. Learning unflattering things about oneself, ones country is uncomfortable but necessary to move on to the next step.
    Great Diary. Thanks.

    •  Probably at least 2/3rds of the population (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      foldingBicycle

      are psychologically incapable of admitting or dealing with "unflattering things" about themselves or any institution that they derive part of their identity from. A lot of it has to do with our natural proclivilty to avoid the pain associated that level of change. For the most part, as a species, we just aren't there yet. And the mechanisms that humans employ to keep from facing unpleasent truths about themselves get progressively more violent, internally and externally, as the facts become more obvious.

      That is what we are dealing with here. What may merely be uncomfortable for you is like a mini-death for many people.

      "God is not on the side of the heavy battalions, but of the best shots."- Voltaire

      by armenia on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:47:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  CNN coverage (23+ / 0-)
    Two things:

    First, I find it intersting that when the United Church of Christ releases a statement, CNN immediately thinks it is repudiating Obama for saying he didn't agree with Rev. Wright's comments when it sounded to me like the statement from the church was ripping the media for making generalizations on the Reverend's 30 year career based on 4 sound bites.

    Second, when I was getting my nails done today, I happened to be seated next to two women who are members of the church. It seems that today they had to have additional security for the services, including getting their purses checked because of threats the church has received since the story broke.  They discussed the type of man Rev. Wright is, and although he can say fiery comments, he is a good man who does so much for his community. They said they would never consider him racist and they are heartbroken that a man they know to be a good person is being torn apart in the media.  They said that his comments are taken out of context had that they would never have thought he didn't love this country, but they did say (which I think is stating the obvious) that black and white people have such different experiences in this country, that his version of patriotism is different that what is expected on Fox News.  

    It was a very interesting conversation and we all agreed that none of it really makes any difference regarding the type of president Barack would be.

  •  "chickens coming home to roost" (4+ / 0-)

    This is a sad day for dKos.  Nothing more to say.

    Try our famous burgers and dogs.
    -Munson Diner

    by Eric S on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:15:48 PM PDT

  •  My sentiments entirely (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dotster, allie123, BlackBox

    No need for me to reiterate what I've previously said with respect to this matter.

    thnx DT.

    I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

    by valadon on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:17:14 PM PDT

  •  Scholar's translation? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Leo in NJ

    Which scholars and where can this particular translation be found? A link would be helpful.

    I am contributing to the graying of the blogosphere.

    by forkush on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:17:23 PM PDT

  •  On Obama's preacher. (9+ / 0-)

    Anyone who is in favor of 100% of EVERYTHING your Pastor says or does, feel FREE to step up and throw that Biblical "first stone" at Obama!

    http://osi-speaks.blogspot.com/...

    •  Why would a Harvard grad go and listen to some (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RabidNation

      moron every sunday in the first place?

      •  Troll, go away. thx. -eom (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DJCarnegie
      •  because (0+ / 0-)

        This country is culturally religious. Faith is okay and the community offered by congregations is like extended family. It isn't moronic, and I really dislike organized religion. Churches have a place in the world - and everyone has the right to go if they like.

        I'm thrilled that Obama has spoken out against pulpit issued commentary not because I disagree with the shame this country should feel for its handling of poverty and myriad other things, but because he damned well better not just agree with people because they occupy a certain position.

        "We are Americans and we choose to be inspired." - John Edwards

        by michele2 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:53:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Please stop (7+ / 0-)

    Please stop defending Rev. Wright's comments.  You are selling out everything the Democratic Party stands for.  It's hate speech pure and simple.  

  •  This is so freakin weird! n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Larry Bailey

    ....and an "eye of the beholder" to you too.

    by leftbird on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:18:46 PM PDT

  •  Nice try. (6+ / 0-)

    But try as you may, there's the videos of a lunatic at a pulpit spewing hate and divisiveness.  That this man could be be the "spiritual advisor" to a candidate who seemed the embodiment of unity, reason,  hope, and bi-partisanship is astounding - even to an Obama supporter like me.

    I just fear there's more of where that video came from, possibly even with Barack and Michelle sitting in the audience.

    A disaster for the unity candidate.

    •  Huh? (10+ / 0-)

      How low are people about to stoop?

      Is Wright running for president?  Have you even seen the entire sermons, or just sound bites?

      How low are people?  You guys are about to smear a freaking church which welcomes the homeless, practices vigorous non-discrimination as does its whole denomination, and which has services attended by many Chicago luminaries?  

      This is the Democratic party, right?  Just checking.

      "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

      by GN1927 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:26:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  An Obama supporter like you? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mrchumchum, NotablyZen

      ROFLMAO.

      That's priceless.

      "......" -- Harpo Marx

      by BobzCat on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:30:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, God forbid... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dksbook

      there is video evidence that Obama is a Christian.  

      Can we maybe use our brains once in a while and figure out that our relationships with others do not depend upon agreeing with 100 percent of what comes out of their mouths 24 hours a day 7 days a week?  Or even 1 hour a week, on Sunday mornings?  Human relationships are complex.  And our analysis of those relationships should not be based entirely on what shows up on Youtube.

      The truth is all that's Left

      by Left Leaner on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:33:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A lemming or nincompoop (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sagittarius

      You would have to think Sen Obama is both if you think his spiritual advisor is the same as a joint chief, or political advisor.

      They are separate.

      This is what happens when our nation is entwined with politics and religion.

      "You can unlearn your dominator/racist language and mannerisms because we cannot engage until then," --bell hooks

      by BlackBox on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:36:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They know this (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sagittarius, BlackBox

        but they are low, so smearing this church is not out of the question.  A church which practices strict non discrimination in accordance with its denomination.  Literally, nothing is sacred.

        Let's start looking at every Democratic politician, and every one of their churches, or synagogues, or mosques, or whatever religious house in which they worship, and waste time examining every utterance by the house's spiritual leader.  That's how low this party has fallen under the Clinton campaign.

        Meanwhile, there are literally crooks running some of the right wing houses of religious worship.  Crooks who take cancer patients' prayer money and buy jets, vacationing around the world. Crooks who team up with murderers and rapists in diamond and gold-mining ventures.

        But no.  Jesus God, they want to take down a UCC church.

        "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

        by GN1927 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:57:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Right On GN, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sagittarius, c r b

          I don't agree with Rev. Wright's word choice. But who the f cares. What we need to be having a real discussion about is how America, which some would deem as a Christian nation, treats its poor and down-trodden.

          What we need to be talking about is closure.

          Closure to all of the hell that African Americans, Native Americans, Jews, Catholics, Irish, Gays, Asians, and Latinos have been put through.

          Stop sweeping this shit under the rug and bring out, deal with it so we can heal and move on.

          The wounds are still there when you have a disproportionate of Black and Latino men incarcerated.

          The wounds are still there when the unemployment, high school education, and infant mortality rates are higher amongst minorities.

          The shit is real.

          We need to stop dwelling on the fact that Rev Wright said G-D Damn America and think about why he said G-D Damn America.

          "You can unlearn your dominator/racist language and mannerisms because we cannot engage until then," --bell hooks

          by BlackBox on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:11:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Me either (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sagittarius, BlackBox

            I have never met a preacher with whom I've agreed 100%.  And I most certainly have never met a preacher who I thought was well-suited to presidential politics.

            This is Wright's job, just as the diary pointed out.  To say controversial things, to shake things up, to preach the radical gospel of Jesus; Jesus who was the original radical, the original extremist.  Thank God there are still churches more invested in justice, even if the preacher's talking crazy, than the personal financial fortune of church leadership (which is increasingly becoming the case).  "Democrats" trying to take down a UCC church.  Now I think I've seen it all.

            "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

            by GN1927 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:24:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  thank you, ms. clinton. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlackBox

      your concern is duly noted.

      Clinton IS a monster.

      by RabidNation on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:42:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've watched all the videos (0+ / 0-)

      and I just see someone standing in front of a group of people telling the truth.

  •  Excellent. Thank you. n/t (6+ / 0-)

    "We must become the change we want to see." -Gandhi    PublicChristian.com

    by larryrant on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:19:51 PM PDT

  •  This flap escapes me entirely (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    timbuck, NotablyZen

    All it does is reinforce and intensify my aversion to all things religious.

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:20:33 PM PDT

  •  Correct, DT (11+ / 0-)

    I took a bit of heat today myself more my comment here, which is exactly in line with what you've posted. I'm amazed that more people don't get this point.

    No, this is not heaven on Earth. Americans are living in shanty towns, denied health care, many go to bed hungry, children die from lack of dental care, and we're spending $12 billion a month on whipping up anti-American sentiment that endangers us by fomenting Islamic jihad.

    "God damn America" is one way of railing at that. "Fuck this shit" is another. Strong words are needed and any thinking adult should nod at them and concur. We have major problems that require immediate and forceful attention. There's little that Wright has said that's objectionable and playing the flag-waving game does none of us a favor.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:21:28 PM PDT

  •  Amazing diary n/t (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mcfly, Albatross, dotster, allie123

    "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

    by GN1927 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:21:38 PM PDT

  •  That stick in the hornet's nest? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jaysunb, esquimaux, Joga

    Our problems began with the establishment of an Israeli homeland, and the Palestinians have been fuming ever since. That was six decades ago, and the "hornets"
    have been gathering anger and despair for those six decades. The division of Palestine was a poor effort, not supported by the regional powers, and the blame was not the doing of Israel. However, Israel has not helped by encroachment of land that was supposed to be for the Palestinians, and their heavy-handed actions. I would hope to see some permanent settlement of the issues, and the Palestinians receiving recognition as a peaceable, thriving state, and Israel being good neighbors in my lifetime, but fear it won't happen.

    "This is not our America and we need to take it back." John Edwards.

    by mcmom on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:23:45 PM PDT

  •  I'm so glad I'm an athiest N/T (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, timbuck, foldingBicycle

    Hello from Vancouver, B.C.

    by Andre29BC on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:23:58 PM PDT

    •  Amen! (n/t) (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      timbuck, llamaRCA, Joga

      Barack Obama is the unstoppable force, Hillary Clinton the immovable object.

      by Decih on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:27:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  But I hope for your sake (0+ / 0-)

      You have somewhere to go to get that poke in the ribs, and somebody who gets you angry and upsets your applecart.

      (Honestly, if I didn't have my church, I'd have to talk more with my brother in law.  And neither of us wants that.)

      •  Quite often (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        valadon

        Its the religious that get us pissed off. Christians hate us, after all.

        Which is alright, I suppose. I couldn't worship the Christian god even if he existed.

        What do we consider a ruler who tortures anyone who dares to speak out against them? Everyone who is not a member of a favored sect? Evil? The world went to war on the past to stop such men. How can a god who does the same be considered benevolent?

        Frankly, I really want to move to a country where invoking religion gets a politician laughed off the stage.

        America is bringing religion into government, and I don't see the dems doing much to stop it.

        How easily people forget the words of the founders.

        As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...

        Iä! Iä! Cthulhu Fhtagn!

        by Nerull on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:38:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  can we please ignore this crap? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SecondComing

    Wright is a fucking idiot; sorry.  Obama needs to throw him under an 18-wheeler, not just a bus.  And then we need to forget it all and concentrate on beating the Queen and the Maverick.  

    Dear Democratic Party: Win This One or Just Disband

    by Tuffie on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:25:52 PM PDT

    •  Why the hell... (8+ / 0-)

      should Obama have to disown a person who has played an important (and now, admittedly, complicated) role in his life for so many years?  For political expediency?   I expect more from my leaders than to sell out their friends and family to appease a Kos commenter with tender sensibilities.

      The truth is all that's Left

      by Left Leaner on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:37:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree and.. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        catfood, Sagittarius

        I find it disturbing that people are demanding that Oboma sever all ties with someone who has obviously been so important to him for over two decades. This was the guy Oboma and Michelle choose to marry them and baptize their precious children. This was the guy that inspired Oboma to write "The Audacity of Hope." This was the guy Oboma spent twenty years with every Sunday morning, when he had so many other pastors to choose from. Obviously he was a very important part of Obomas's life. No decent person would demand that Oboma just zap Wright out of existance. In the long run, this will make Oboma look as cold and calculating as his rival is made out to be.

        "God is not on the side of the heavy battalions, but of the best shots."- Voltaire

        by armenia on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:15:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for putting this on the front page (7+ / 0-)

    I've been saying it in comments for the past two days, most recently

    Would God bless a country that marginalized its poor, bombed civilians, unfairly punished the disadvantaged, abandoned its citizens in crisis, and ignored the economic and social injustices that plague its minority populations? Or would God do something else? And as a citizen, what would you be moved to do to gain back that blessing?

    The call from the altar is meant to shake up a congregation, and get them to examine their social responsibilities.

    The reaction to this in the media has demonstrated to me how deeply and willfully uncritical (in the sense of examination) it is when confronted with a story of any complexity.

    And not since Wolf "They're so poor, and they're so black" Blitzer's unintentional moment of candor has their cluelessness in reporting about the black experience been so in evidence.

    "......" -- Harpo Marx

    by BobzCat on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:26:02 PM PDT

  •  Excellent, excellent points (8+ / 0-)

    Rev. Wright is far more of a patriot than any of the flag pin-wearers: he recognizes injustices and rails against it, insists, no, DEMANDS that we do better.

    I'm not a Christian.  I'm not anything, and frankly find all forms of religious belief to be equally silly exercises in delusion.  So I don't give a damn about mental masturbation like prayer and theology and the Bible and the Koran and the Torah and everything else.  But I do very much give a damn about our moral responsibilities toward each other and our ethical obligation to pursue the greater good.  We cannot do either of those unless we are willing to look long and hard in the mirror and confront the ugliness, the hatred, the violence, the racism, the bigotry, the greed withing ourselves and within our nation.

    That's an incredibly painful exercise on any level -- so it's hardly surprising that those who try to get us to do that sometimes use harsh language.  Nor is it surprising that they generate a backlash: we, collectively, don't want to do it.  We desperately want to look away.

    We shouldn't.

    Nor should we take out the pain we feel on those who are making us look.  They didn't make us what we are: we did.

    Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the kingdom of idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts.

    by RiderOnTheStorm on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:26:43 PM PDT

  •  Most Christian preachers talk like that. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SecondComing

    They all believe in judgment and eternal anger. It isn't just the right wing preachers either. They are all crazy. It isn't breaking news.

    Read the Day of Affirmation Address by RFK!

    by Common Cents on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:27:15 PM PDT

  •  By all religious accounts, most of which are (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SecondComing, michele2, Jlukes, Joga

    dubious, in my mind, I am going to hell.  Lucky for me, the god I don't believe in hates rich people most of all, so even though I'll be suffering for eternity, they will be suffering more.  Proportional to their income.  And that's just one of the reasons that I love God.

    The difference between the right word, and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and lightning bugs. M.Twain

    by patarico adamasso on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:27:21 PM PDT

  •  Bravo! I wish I had thought to post this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    scottmaui, barath

    The SV is a perfect foil to all this nonsense. Jesus was the scandalous radical who challenged the status quo throughout his tenure here. The SV is a dynamic translation aimed at recapturing the impact of his words in language that both respects the original yet finds resonance with modern English and idioms.

    Perfect.

  •  heh (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    llamaRCA, foldingBicycle

    of course, we can never mention American imperalism and its consequences during a Presidential campaign, so this will all be rejected and denouced in short order.  Someday we will grow up and realize that explaining what someone is doing is not the same thing as excusing it, but we ain't there yet.  Indeed, the liberal hawk wing of the Dem party lives on in the Clinton campaign, as seen by the reaction to this post.

  •  UCC is rightly denouncing Obama now-- (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Larry Bailey, darwinism, armenia

    "Reverend Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr.’s character is being assassinated in the public sphere because he has preached a social gospel on behalf of oppressed women, children and men in America and around the globe," the leaders of Trinity United Church of Christ wrote Sunday in a statement distributed to the media.

    Claiming that Wright’s 36 years as pastor of the church — the largest United Church of Christ congregation, with 8,000 members — is being demeaned, Rev. John H. Thomas, UCC general minister and president, said, "It saddens me to see news stories reporting such a caricature of a congregation that has been such a blessing to the UCC’s Wider Church mission ... It’s time for us to say ‘No’ to these attacks and declare that we will not allow anyone to undermine or destroy the ministries of any of our congregations in order to serve their own narrow political or ideological ends."

    Mr. Unity is now Mr. narrow and political.

    Where does Jesus say you drop your mentors like a hot potato when they become political liabilities? And what kind of unity so quickly shoves important people aside like this?

    Disgusting. If Obama doesn't have the balls to stand by the guy he credits with giving him faith, who will he stand by when it gets rough? Who will he drop? What issues?

    And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

    by amberglow on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:29:20 PM PDT

    •  Obama rejected the comments, not the man, church (12+ / 0-)

      If you heard what he said on MSNBC and other stations you would know that he did not condemn the man himself or the church. He stated that he disagree with the statements. That is understandable. But he didn't drop his mentor like a hot potato.

      What I think the church is referring to is the attacks from Fox and others online, not Obama. That's obvious. Nice try twisting it the other way, but that is pretty transparent. I suspect this hasn't changed your opinion of Obama, it has just given you an opportunity to spew against him.

      •  the Church is referring to O, not to Fox. (0+ / 0-)

        If you're a Christian, you don't denigrate your mentor's gospel, which is what O did.

        Social Justice is what Obama explicitly was distancing himself from. What Wright preaches is what Obama dropped when it got out.

        And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

        by amberglow on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:43:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  they'll be on tv all week --CNN says they're (0+ / 0-)

          furious with him personally--not with the media coverage overall.

          You guys need to know this is not going away, and Obama showed no kind of leadership or Christian values or "new kind of politics" in dumping him like this--this is the guy who gave him faith, and Obama made his faith a big part of the campaign--Called to Serve, Committed to Christ, etc....

          And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

          by amberglow on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:45:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You trust the MSM? Really? They lashed the media! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            paintitblue

            http://www.politico.com/...

            It's clear that they're attacking the media.  CNN is trying to cover their asses by lying and saying they are attacking Obama, NOT them.

            •  the Church SELLS those tapes to people-- (0+ / 0-)

              and they knew and Obama knew and Wright knew that they were political poison. It's all been reported that they knew.

              They can't honestly lash the media for airing stuff they themselves are proud of. They specifically speak of "narrow political ends". Whose ends? You can't honestly say that CNN and MSNBC are anti-Obama.

              This isn't on the air because some other politician wanted it on-air or because the GOP put it out there. This is on the air because the Church itself sells it.

              And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

              by amberglow on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:28:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  "Obama's church accuses media..." (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                valadon, paintitblue

                "Obama's church accuses media of character assassination"

                That's the headline on Politico.

                The church attended by Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) fought back Sunday against mounting criticism of its pastor, accusing the media of character assassination and “crucifixion.”

                •  so the media is racist and out to get him, after (0+ / 0-)

                  months and months of fawning over him and trashing every other contender?

                  Not believable.

                  And if that's really what they're saying, they're just perpetuating that he belongs to a church that really is very very divisive and inciting. That only hurts Obama more, actually.

                  "crucifiction" is more like it.

                  And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

                  by amberglow on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:09:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  no one has to agree with everything (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Albatross

          their pastor says. And one can disagree publicly with selected statements without denigrating his gospel overall.

          It is clear from his public appearances that he is not distancing himself from the social justice mission and work of his pastor or the church.

          I think he was distancing himself from the divisive tone of the statements, which do not reflect the way that Obama wants to lead this country toward unity around our common values and challenges.

          To me, there is nothing inconsistent in his response to this. I respect him for disagreeing with the statements publicly, but not disavowing his friendship with Wright.

        •  Free will (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Albatross

          I do believe that religion believes in free will and also doesn't believe that their pastor is perfect, so disagreeing with the Reverend is allowed.

          •  Right: protestant, okay; Pope, not so much (0+ / 0-)

            The Pope is infallible, according to the Catholic religion.

            Pastors are not, according to Protestant religions.

            •  a bit more clarity (0+ / 0-)

              The Pope is infallible only when speaking ex cathedra, a formal statement regarding faith and morals. I believe there have only been two ex cathedra statements but would have to check.

              He is not infallible in any other respect. Catholics obviously take him very seriously, but if he came out with an opinion that Coke was better than Pepsi, that would not be infallible. It would be right, but not infallible.

              •  i stand corrected (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Belvedere Come Here Boy

                i'm not a Catholic so I really don't know.

              •  Correct (and hilarious) (0+ / 0-)

                Since infallibility became Church dogma in 1870, the only applicable statement the Pope has made was Pius's definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary into Heaven. However, the Church also considers papal infallibility to apply to a handful of statements that various Popes made before infallibility became a doctrine, most notably the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

                In addition, the Catholic Church believes that the Church as a whole has infallibility under certain circumstances. Papal infallibility is a subset of the Infallibility of the Church, which also includes two other types of infallibility.

                1. Certain Councils are infallibile, including all the famous ones like Nicaea, Trent, and both Vaticans. This is the infallibility that applies to the fully divine and fully human natures of Christ, priestly celibacy, and red hats for cardinals.
                1. The infallibility of the "Ordinary and Universal Magisterium," which applies to teachings that all bishops (including the Pope) agree on, such as the male priesthood.
        •  wow (0+ / 0-)

          I cannot believe someone in this day and says that - we aren't supposed to "denigrate" our president either.

          come on. Everyone has a right to disagree with anyone and particularly obligated to do so when it's a matter of challenging authority in my opinion, and more specifically, challenging the pulpit on matters of policy. I also believe Rev. Wright should say what he thinks. I also believe he should want a congregation that holds his feet to the fire a bit - only through that is someone's message worthwhile IMO. If one wants a bunch of acolytes and yes-people...then one's ego is too big.

          "We are Americans and we choose to be inspired." - John Edwards

          by michele2 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:47:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Sounds like they're (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Albatross, Joga, paintitblue

      denouncing the media.

    •  Boo hoo.. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sagittarius

      I guess you won't be able to get up off the fainting couch to cast your ballot.  What a shame.

      The truth is all that's Left

      by Left Leaner on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:40:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He didn't (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sagittarius

      reject the man, he rejected what some would call offensive sentiments.

      Love the sinner, hate the sin.

      "You can unlearn your dominator/racist language and mannerisms because we cannot engage until then," --bell hooks

      by BlackBox on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:42:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  just another politician? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      amberglow, armenia
      it doesn't speak much to obama's character when he can't stand up for a guy who has mentored him for the past 20 years, inspired a book title of his, baptized his kids, married he and his wife and who he's constantly prayed with.

      if this post can claim to defend wright, why can't obama?

      •  Exactly--that's the point. (0+ / 0-)

        Obama is a coward.

        And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

        by amberglow on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:46:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Obama... (0+ / 0-)

        would be committing political suicide if he did. Plain and simple. Most of America isn't ready or willing to have this type of discussion now. Would you rather he severely ruin his chances of receiving the nomination and have Clinton go to the general and lose to McCain, or would you rather he makes a move in which he denounces the words Rev. Wright has said, while not denouncing him.

        I think this is more than political posturing. It's about survival and trying to "save" this country. At least that is how I see it.

        •  Of course he is a politician... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          michele2

          otherwise he wouldn't be running for president. The ontological shift necessary to combat racism has to come from the people, not from political leadership. Plain and simple.

        •  if he did the unthinkable.. (0+ / 0-)

          and committed political suicide in your assesment by defending and standing by wright- wouldn't that make him a different kind of politician? political posturing = politics as usual. doesn't go with the whole premise of his campaign.

          fyi...all of the infighting has mccain up on both of them in the polls. so there's no guarantee that one or the other would win over mccain.

          also..why wouldn't america be ready for this discourse yet we are read to elect a black man as president?

          •  Because we're ready for a certain type... (0+ / 0-)

            of black man. A black man who is clean, articulate, and reasoned. The picture of the angry black man is clearly unacceptable for many people. It's an unfortunate situation. But Obama fits the bill of the acceptable minority.

            If by the polls, you mean the national polls, they're pretty ineffective in determining who wins the election. If we remember correctly, the Electoral College system determines who we elect, and can most certainly be unfair. The Clinton name immediately makes a lot of people angry. As far as I am concerned, Obama has more pull with the Independents at this point. The Republican machine is going to be much harder on Clinton as well, and if she cannot properly manage a campaign at this point, I don't know how she can possibly weather the attacks that will be coming her way. Obama has done surprisingly well fending off attacks from nearly everyone- Clinton, McCain, the media. He's also gotten out MORE democratic voters than I think Hillary has. I think he has more a chance to beat McCain.

            In terms of political posturing, I said he wasn't engaging in political posturing. What he is doing is something far more important, and I've put out my reasoning which you don't agree with. I don't have much else to say.

            •  Obama is not the angry black man, either. (0+ / 0-)

              He's trying his best to bring people together. It's his message, and deeply held convictions for equality and justice, that have propelled him this far. That's not to say he has been "weak" but he isn't Rev. Wright and won't engage in the style of rhetoric that Rev. Wright does. They're very different people. I of course wish that Obama would go further, but I know that what he is advocating for in terms of economic fairness, healthcare, LGBT rights, etc. are far better than Clinton or McCain. I admire him for having the political courage even to run at all in the shadow of the "inevitable candidate."

              •  how can you say... (0+ / 0-)

                that what obama is advocating for in terms of economic fairness, HEALTHCARE, lgbt rights, etc are far better than clinton? there's not much difference between them...however-

                hillary tried to get us to universal healthcare a full 16 years ago until the gop and harry and louise (which obama also employed as mailers) derailed her and bill. i think they both learned from that and now with the democratic congress again, i think they have a better chance of politically getting it through the second time around. so healthcare, i trust her.

                lgbt? i used to live in sf. funny thing is that when matt gonzales (now the green party vp to nader) ran against newsom for mayor- people, including myself, portrayed newsom as a republican. only sf politics and in blogs can we portray other dems as republicans (like so many are doing with hill now). guess what? newsom gave us gay marriage. and who did newsom endorse? hillary. it might have something to do with obama not wanting to be photographed with newsom during that time of the gay marriage hoopla. so also being part of the lgbt community, i give the edge to hill.

                economic fairness? the clintons invented it's the economy stupid. her plan is all she talks about. it bores me to death. i don't even know what obama is going to do. so i give that edge to hill as well.

                inspiration, yes i give that to obama.and given that, he should make some inspired and bold moves. not politically convenient ones because his whole argument of being something different than hillary and all of the other politicians will fizzle.

                •  Ah...so you are indeed a Hillary supporter. (0+ / 0-)

                  I am gay. I have done a lot of work with LGBT voter outreach. It's true a lot of gay people support Hillary. But it's really all for vanity reasons. Obama is the only candidate who is going to repeal ALL of DOMA, Obama has spoken out about gay men in an all Black baptist church, showing he has the courage to engage people in difficult decisions, he has a people section for LGBT individuals on his website, unlike Hillary, and has recently spoken up for LGBT individuals much more than Hillary has. Sorry to say but the gay establishment isn't for me, just like the big-wig Democrats who are supporting Hillary aren't for me. Plenty of people in positions of authority make incorrect decisions. It's why we've been stuck in the same politics for decades.

                  In terms of health care, if you mean catastrophic failure, then yes, Hillary will successful in the early 1990s. I am also a student in Massachusetts, and know full well how the "universal" health care system isn't working. You need to be able to lower the costs before you can mandate something.

                  But really, I have to get back to other things. Have a good evening.

                  •  i think that makes me a leper in this board... (0+ / 0-)

                    i hope i can get health coverage under obama's plan for that.  ;)

                    if he can repeal all of doma, then more power to him.

                    i seriously doubt he will make this a strong case platform for his campaign. in the primary, it gets him the liberal vote. but it would be toxic in the GE.

                    speaking of vanity, the lgbt section on his website is a nice touch.

                    it's ironic that you would mention the big-wig democrats who aren't for you since your governor and both of your big-wig-dem senators came out in full force for obama. i guess their endorsement isn't for most people in mass either.

                    neither obama or hillary will change how dc works. every 4 years a candidate wants change of some sort. what i want is a functioning govt on capable hands.

            •  the republicans (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lisactal

              will unfortunately spin the wright videos and his association with obama to make him the "black man that is unacceptable for many people." that i think has the same potential to get the GOP's base as riled up to vote against obama as they may already have the reason to come out and vote against hillary. there's a reason why it's getting so much play on fix and and right-nutter's talk show host: to pump up the base. less we forget what they did with the willy horton flak with dukakis?

              i'm sorry, but the gop is mean and ugly. that's why i don't buy this hillary negative campaigning stuff. cause what the gop has in store will make this primary look like band camp. and hillary's already shown that she will fight. but it's a much tougher proposition for obama since his whole campaign is built on hope and positivity.

              the gop has nothing to lose this fall. along with the kitchen sink, they'll throw in the bidet, tub and toilet loaded with crap.

              •  How many... (0+ / 0-)

                Clintoncans have you heard about? What about Obamacans?

                Have you listening to Rush Limbaugh who encouraged people to vote for Hillary because Obama is viewed as a the greater threat? Do you perhaps not listen to the almost constant Clinton-bashing that goes on? I think if anything, the Clinton name will galvanize more Republicans to come out and vote. I really do. I guess we just have widely different perceptions of the political landscape right now.

                •  i think we do (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Lisactal

                  obama's core voters i would suspect is far more liberal than hillary's core supporters. her blue collar supporters are essentially the reagan democrats. they're the ones in ohio, penn, mich, etc. they are more likely to vote for either a republican than the core liberal voters who would vote democrat in most/any instance.

                  if hillary was in the lead, rush would get people to vote for obama to prlong the primary in the same way that kos encouraged voters in michigan to vote for romney.

                  given the racial polarization of voters in the south, i don't think they are much in play electorally. so i think we are left with the same states in play as before in the previous presidential election.

                  however, the economy is taking. it will only get worse. people in finance here in nyc are all nervous. so who will sway those blue collar workers- who i think is this election's swing voters?

      •  He clearly defended Jeremiah Wright as a person (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Albatross, Joga, paintitblue

        and condemned the comments ALONE.  People keep lying and trying to stir up $#!+ because Obama dodged a bullet.

    •  if you value ideological purity (0+ / 0-)

      vote for nader

    •  so .... (0+ / 0-)

      Everyone attending church needs to agree with their pastors and never publicly disagree? I fear that's the sheeple mentality we denigrate regularly (and rightly so).

      "We are Americans and we choose to be inspired." - John Edwards

      by michele2 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:43:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly where did UCC denounce Obama? n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      paintitblue
  •  King James Was Written to Remove Word "Tyrant" (7+ / 0-)

    The King James version of the Bible was authorized by King James of England because he wanted the word "tyrant" removed.  Tyrant was used in many places in the then-current edition of the bible.  It was replaced by the word "king" in the new version.

    Fortunately, there were many historical and literary improvements also in the King James version, so it was accepted for many centuries.

    JPZenger was a newspaper publisher whose jury trial in the 1730s for seditious libel helped establish the freedom to criticize top government officials.

    by JPZenger on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:29:43 PM PDT

  •  if wright pisses sean hannity and the neocons (5+ / 0-)

    off, then i love him!

    Bush "is a yokel on the world stage . . . a Gilligan who cannot find his ass." Bill Maher

    by timbuck on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:31:04 PM PDT

  •  Religious Mentors (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    amberglow, armenia

    We choose our faith and our mentors with care. In these places we look for answers to our questions. We don't blithely attach ourselves to those we disagree with nor follow those that do not share our beliefs. To claim that he is seperate from his Religious Mentor is like removing an arm and claiming it is not part of him. He chose his mentor based on his calling to god. Not because he was the only preacher in Chicago. Not because he was the only Black Preacher in the state of Illinois. He did so because they had the same sense of religion and sense of belief in mankind.

    I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's. - Mark Twain in Eruption

    We are our father's son. We are not our fathers, but who we are is based largely on what we have learned and how we use that knowledge in our lives.

    Simply saying,
    Wynter

    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." - Hitchhiker's Guide

    by Wynter on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:31:05 PM PDT

  •  exactly !!!! tada !!!! (0+ / 0-)

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -Mohandas Gandhi

    by ezdidit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:31:14 PM PDT

  •  I don't think (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    armenia

    Obama can be elected.  If he is the nominee, the Republicans will hang him with this. . .and hang us as well.

  •  God damn the MSM (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dksbook, timbuck, butchergirl

    for being so unfair and sensationalist, and for following FOX down into the sewer.

  •  Was the JFK assassination (0+ / 0-)

    chickens coming home to roost, as Malcolm X said?

    Yes.

  •  AMEN! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    foreign noise

    And I'm not even a Christian.

  •  They should lose their tax exempt status (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    barath, Joga

    neither do I feel like his words require that "his church should lose it's tax exempt status"

    As should every religious institution.

    Then they could say anything they want, as well they should.

  •  McCain Spent Last 20 Years W/o Blacks (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    catfood, foldingBicycle

    Here's a rebuttal to allegation of Obama spending 20 years in a radical black church.  McCain spent the last 20 years in the Senate, which has been 99%-100% white during that period of time, and extremist views are pervasive there, from more than one speaker.  

  •  Brilliant! 'Nuff said. n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    foldingBicycle
  •  You know right wing agrees about 9/11. (2+ / 0-)

    Just not in the same way. They think we deserved 9/11 because of gays, planned parenthood, and atheists. Wright, you, and others think we deserved it because of our imperial actions.

    You are both insane for the same reason. People at the Trade Center were as innocent as the victims of our imperialism. And the reason the right wing is wrong on the same issue goes without saying, I trust.

    Read the Day of Affirmation Address by RFK!

    by Common Cents on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:37:09 PM PDT

  •  Insidious racism (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    scottmaui, leftbird, txdreamer, Joga

    I disagree with Pastor Wright on a few points, specifically the Aids virus conspiracy and the gov't. drug conspiracy thing. They are not uncommon conspiracy theories, but really quite silly in my view.

    I also disagree with Pastor Wright's tacit endorsement from the pulpit. That was not appropriate. I don't necessarily disagree with what he said, but I can't agree with where he said it.

    Having said that:

    Why is a black pastor saying crazy stuff so much worse than a white pastor saying crazy stuff?

    McCain himself has stayed away from this, but he  sought out the endorsement of two pastors who say stuff that is orders of magnatude more batshit crazy than what Pastor Wright said. Somehow, McCain's pastors are no problem at all for him but Wright will ruin Obama?

    That's the insidious racism.

    Rich white people run America, as far as I know.

    by Inventor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:38:04 PM PDT

  •  Rev. Wright is a Maverick (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    scottmaui, foreign noise

    Let's start referring to him as the "Maverick Preacher."  

  •  Why does Unity incl haters but not O's mentor? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PssttCmere

    Why should it be ok to "come together" with haters and health insurers and GOPers who celebrate denying children healthcare, etc, but not ok to sit with Wright?

    Why did he drop him so fast, even tho he knew about all this for 20 years?

    Why did Obama hurt the man who brought him to faith? And his church?

    What does this say about his "new kind of politics" and "unity?"

    These all need answers--better answers than Obama's lies so far.

    And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

    by amberglow on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:40:52 PM PDT

    •  He didn't drop the man (6+ / 0-)

      He said he disagreed with the statements he made. There's a big difference.

      •  He did explicitly drop the man--and the message. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PssttCmere

        And then, he farted candy and rainbows...

        by amberglow on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:49:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  care to provide a quotation? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sagittarius, Fineena, paintitblue

          On MSNBC:

          http://www.youtube.com/...

          Obama: He's been preaching for 30 years. He's a man who was a former marine, who served this country, a biblical scholar, someone who's spoken at biblical schools across the country and is widely regarded as a preacher. That's the man I know, that's the person who was the pastor of this church. [...] These particular statements that have been gathered are ones that I strongly objected to, strongly condemned; had I heard them in church I would have expressed that directly to Reverend Wright.
          [...]
          Olbermann: Do you repudiate the man, do you repudiate the comments, do you repudiate both?

          Obama: No, I would not repudiate the man. As I said, this is somebody who I have know for 17 years, helped bring me to Jesus, and helped bring me to church, and he and I have a relationship, he's like an uncle who has talked to me not about political things, not about social views, as much as about faith and God and family. And he is somebody who is widely respected throughout Chicago and around the country for many of the things he has done not only as a pastor but also as a preacher. But I have to say that the comments that have been played are contrary to what I believe, what I think of this country, the love that I have for this country, and are ones that anger and distress me. So I would describe it as a member of your family who says something that you really disagree with. They don't stop being a member of your family, but you have to speak out forcefully on the issue.

          Explicitly dropped the man? Hardly. Nice try, though.

        •  Not true - explicity said so (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sagittarius, paintitblue

          Not true.
          He explicitly said in his interview with Keith Olberman, that he did not reject Wright the man, he just rejected the meaning of the words. Also that Wright was off his campaign religious council.

  •  Wonderful diary, Devilstower. (6+ / 0-)

    The irrationality of this whole uproar against Rev. Wright just depresses me for what it says about this dizzy electorate.  As I said on another thread:

    I'm white, not inspired by Obama (nor by Clinton),(neither does Clinton), am a strict agnostic who doesn't believe any possible "god" blesses or damns any country (we take care of that ourselves), and I found myself agreeing with about 3/4's of what Rev. Wright had to say.  I don't believe he was being unpatriotic in pointing out that our history is a lot bloodier and more scurrilous than we care to acknowledge most of the time, and I can see nothing wrong with his subtext, "Let's reject this bloody path, let's change it!"  I think the uproar is over how "blackly" the Rev. said it, which has a bunch of whites missing the rationality of most of his arguments (excepting his theory on AIDS) and trembling at the idea fanatic blacks could take over under Obama's watch.  (OMG!) Which is pretty silly because everything temperamentally about Obama, everything his message is the opposite of what is shown in the clips of Wright's sermons.

    Please, God, don't let the Democratic party make me vote for some pinhead who believes in the GWOT. God grinned...

    by planetclaire4 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:42:00 PM PDT

  •  If only that would fit into a 30 sec soundbite (0+ / 0-)

    Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore

    by Horsehead on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:42:59 PM PDT

  •  Well, English was good enough for Jesus nt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bill White
  •  I've been saying it since the whole thing broke. (0+ / 0-)

    The MSM stops the video at "God Damn America..." and no one really hears the whole thing.

    A burro is an ass. A burrow is a hole in the ground. Now can you tell the difference?

    by second gen on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:45:05 PM PDT

  •  Blow Back Meets Religion (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, Sagittarius, Joga, foldingBicycle

    But to pretend that decades of actions overseas had nothing to do with that terrible morning is far more delusional than anything said by Rev. Wright.  
    =====================================================

    Thank you devilstower.  This is the point I been trying to make the past two days.  Why are we so surprised when someone expresses the concept of blow back?  I am guessing that some find it disturbing because it was couched in religious terminology.  Consider the source.  That's just how ministers think in any religion.  They are not going to use Chalmers Johnson's political social analytical language instead they use phrases that are understood in a religious context.  Get over it!  Besides, Obama doesn't talk about blow back (more's the pity) though thankfully he doesn't believe in preemptive warfare.

  •  Don't Care What He Meant (2+ / 0-)

    Don't care if it's in the tradition of Jesus.  Don't care if he's right.

    If the swing voters think this represents Obama's beliefs, McCain will win in a landslide.

    Obama has no choice but to distance himself.  The sooner this becomes a non-story the better.  We're not doing him any favors by trying to explain it.  Just let it die.  And be glad it's now instead of October.  

    "At least the war on the environment is going well."

    by RenMin on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:45:18 PM PDT

  •  Ezekiel 25:17 (0+ / 0-)

    Hillary Clinton for Secretary of... the White House? That's who answers the phone there at 3am, right?

    by AntonBursch on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:45:36 PM PDT

  •  Keep in mind (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    the fan man
    The next line after the Bible passage you quoted is:

    "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you"

    --Luke 6:27

    I'm not riding on Rev Wright, but you can't just focus on the verses 24-26 without reading the POINT in verses 27-37.

  •  I did find a bit of sexism in Wright's rant (1+ / 0-)

    however. He refers to this evil nation as "she." he rails abotu what "white people" have done to the black MAN." He talks of how Hillary Clinton could NEVER know discrimination, that she has never been called a n*gger.
    Well pastor, when you talk of equality, I hope you think abotu women too. I hope when you speak of equality you remember your black sisters, who have been abused and discriminated by black men as well as white men. Isn't it interesting, pastor, how no matter what religion you look at - Muslim, Mormon, Catholic or Protestant, women are always second? That in Africa and the Middle East women are not only almost non-existent, but raped and beaten by men of their own color?
    I hope you realize that women have had to work twice as hard to be though of as half as good (including Hillary Clinton), and usually have to stand in line behind black men (who are standing behind white men). I hope you realize that it is MEN who have, pretty much, fucked up the world, not women.
    And while Hillary has never been called the "N" word, she has heard and been referred to by many unsavory epithets, misogynistic ones, which have come as easily from the lips of men, of all colors. And it isn't Obama who has a 527 against him with the acronym C.U.N.T.
    So Pastor Wright, please, before you once again put your foot in your mouth, remember that you need to fear rich white men (usually of the Republican ilk, like W) more than any others. But I also hope you will find it in your heart to work for equality of the women of your race, as well as men. For I can tell you that, in this world, there will be no peace until ALL humans have equality - men and women, black and white.

    "The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off!" - Gloria Steinem

    by MA Liberal on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:48:09 PM PDT

    •  Oh for god's sake (0+ / 0-)

      Referring to America as she = sexism? And I find your opinion that white women are behind black men in status COMPLETELY untrue.

    •  Playing... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sagittarius

      who is victimized more doesn't solve any problems. White women have continually alienated and unfairly treated women of color in the feminist movement and academic setting for far too long. Looking at the ways in which whiteness gives a certain privilege is important to look before we can all come together and fight against injustices. White women, no doubt, have been denied rights, but they've also been given them. And it's much more important to look at what rights they have been given before we can actually engage in meaningful dialogs among women, people of different races, sexual minorities, etc.

      •  All I'm saying is... (0+ / 0-)

        in the time I've been alive and known people of color, Hispanic, white, what ever, women are ALWAYS #2. And sexism always come AFTER racism. I have no problem with that, it's what it is, but let's at least acknowledge it. To deny it does a great disservice,

        "The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off!" - Gloria Steinem

        by MA Liberal on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:17:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  give me a break (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joga, foldingBicycle

      do you think that you know what he thinks about inequality because you watched 90 seconds of his preaching?

      well, i just read 5 paragraphs of your writing and you didn't talk about injustice against children

      why don't you care about children?

      you must hate children

      you must, because you didn't say in this post that you don't.

      Hillary Clinton for Secretary of... the White House? That's who answers the phone there at 3am, right?

      by AntonBursch on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:05:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh please. (0+ / 0-)

        Give me a break. Is nothing someone says who supports Obama able to be deciphered for it's content?
        I support Obama. but giving the Pastor a free ride because of Obama is WRONG.

        "The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off!" - Gloria Steinem

        by MA Liberal on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:13:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  "God Bless America! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joga

      Land that I love, stand beside her and guide her..."

      I guess that's a sexist song now. Who would have thought?

  •  To me there are 2 types of preachers (0+ / 0-)

    Those whose bread and butter is The Gospels, and those whose BNB is Paul's stuff, and Revelations. The Gospels always sound good, no matter the translation.

    Of course it's usually some creep that talks about Paul and Revelations. Some Hater of some variety.

    Can Hillary beat McCain? Is she putting the SCOTUS at risk? And abortion rights?

    by Data Mining Telecom Fascist on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:48:30 PM PDT

  •  Right, anger is always out of line in church (0+ / 0-)

    Find me one white christian who doesn't get angry watching this scene from The Passion.  

    People get angry when they are hurt.

    Fuck the hypocrits who act like no one has a right to lose it in their pain.

    Preachers are not government officials, they are people saying what they believe and what they think and what they feel.

    And sometimes people feel angry.

    Hillary Clinton for Secretary of... the White House? That's who answers the phone there at 3am, right?

    by AntonBursch on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:53:46 PM PDT

    •  by the way (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RenMin, BlackBox, Joga

      this is the first time i have seen anything but the trailer for the movie The Passion.

      i went to seminary.

      i knew what it was like historically.

      i knew i couldn't watch the film.

      i can't watch people being tortured.

      even in a film.

      but i know that the vast majority of the people who are calling foul on Rev Wright watched the passion

      and i know that they all felt angry and disturbed by what they saw, they would have to

      people get angry when innocents suffer

      and they blame, yes, they blame

      anyone who claims they don't is a liar

      we are in Iraq right now because our country wanted to blame someone after 911

      kinda hypocritical to decry a preacher who suffered racism his whole life when he expresses anger and blames someone

      Hillary Clinton for Secretary of... the White House? That's who answers the phone there at 3am, right?

      by AntonBursch on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:59:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A "descendant" of the ORIGINAL Jeremiah (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bekosiluvu

    What Wright said was disastrous for Obama's campaign. But when I first heard it, it occurred to me: this guy IS named Jeremiah, after the ancient Hebrew prophet who said this exact kind of stuff all the time. The word "jeremiad" -- rant about the state of society and its imminent collapse -- was named after that original Jeremiah. He stands in a very long (and necessary) tradition -- something that students of the Bible, religious and secular alike, might do well to recognize.

    Please visit me at www.billcamarda.com/weblog.htm

    by bcamarda on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:54:28 PM PDT

  •  AIDS "invented" in America? (0+ / 0-)

    That was ridiculous.

    The nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I suppose the man could damn America..

    If it weren't for Japanese atrocities like the "rape of Nanking." There's plenty of blame to go 'round. The man could have better served his congregation by damning humanity's warlike tendencies.

    I suspect that Wright's commentary is a hit to Obama, but not a fatal one.

    McCain is far from "thoroughly vetted" himself. It'll be easy to derail the "Straight Talk Express" once we get down to business.

    John Sidney McCain III is more afraid of "Peace" than "War" and he needs your vote.

    by SecondComing on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:54:54 PM PDT

    •  it's a common CT (0+ / 0-)

      It's as big as the 9/11 conspiracy stuff.

      Preachers specialize in myth, not facts, so I'm not surprised to see some get confused.

    •  Okay, so yeah.. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Albatross, Joga, paintitblue

      the AIDS comment was a bit extreme, but I think serious questions remain about how the country is handling the AIDS crisis and how it has handled it historically. You cannot deny this.

      In terms of Japanese committing atrocities, of course they did. Does it mean we have the right to bomb them and kill their people as well to send some message, absolutely not? We also imprisoned a lot of perfectly able-bodied well to do Asian-Americans during this time. I think he is speaking about the nature of violence, aggression and imperialism the US has engaged in.

      •  Aids comment (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        foldingBicycle

        not that far fetched...

        US did infect over 100 black men with syphilis at Tuskegee University.

        "You can unlearn your dominator/racist language and mannerisms because we cannot engage until then," --bell hooks

        by BlackBox on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:17:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Of course! (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlackBox, paintitblue, foldingBicycle

          Of course, I think his statements would have been much more appropriate in that context. At least at this point, I think in terms of viral origination, it's fair to say we didn't create AIDS or deliberately infect people. But we did greatly mishandle the situation and we continue not to educate young people in the proper way by providing comprehensive sex education, particularly in African American communities.

    •  Brings up some questions (0+ / 0-)

      Does the Japanese rape of Nanking make Hiroshima and Nagasaki 'fair play'?

      Because another nation uses gross violence, does that give the United States carte blanche to use any level of force necessary?

      It's time to get away from the "there's plenty of blame to go around" mindset.

      Just sayin'

  •  Obama/Wright '08 (0+ / 0-)

    Pronanly won't have wide support, but I'd vote for it. Yes, I know it won't happen, and maybe Wright is too old (6 years younger than McCain, exactly my own age, but probably too old). Needless to say America is a very long way from accepting that it has systematically wronged many within its borders and around the world and maybe 'damn you' is inappropriate even if Jesus said something similar (he couldn't get elected then or now), but I wish we were ready to rethink everything, to understand the full weight of the responsibility that comes with awesome power and wealth.

    The good news is that I think that  a very large number of Americans are ready to rethink a lot and that is a blessing that fills me with hope and awe at the adaptability of a great nation.

    We have only just begun and none too soon.

    by global citizen on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:55:02 PM PDT

  •  God bless you, Devilstower (0+ / 0-)

    jez sayin'

    "Oh, come on, being human is overrated." -- Mark Penn

    by Bill White on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:55:30 PM PDT

  •  This sure beats... (2+ / 0-)

    the typical "taken-out-of-context" or "cherry-picking" defense. Just lay it right out there on the line and place your bets. "9/11 was chickens coming home to roost" worked so well for Ward Churchill, it still has to have some life in it. Let's give it a whirl for elected politics too.

    Sorry for the heavy-handed sarcasm, but honestly, regardless of your personal beliefs and the conviction with which you hold them, do you recognize and understand that voicing such things is politically toxic for a presidential candidate? Obama has to (and has) disassociate(d) himself with Wright because he can't survive being associated with him after this.

    •  He did have to disassociate (0+ / 0-)

      understanding reality, but nothing stops us from actually talking about what Wright said and discussing it.

      "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

      by GN1927 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:06:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Do you disagree? (0+ / 0-)
      You think our meddling wasn't responsible for attacks against us?
      •  I emphatically, vehemently disagree (0+ / 0-)

        At the time, I don't think anyone understood just how violent the reaction of Arabs would be when Israel was restored, or how long-lasting that enimity would be. We were a big part of that, indeed, but we did not act alone. Many other countries were there along with us. The difference between us and them is that we do not apologize for having been there, or remaining there now.

        It is when we give our word and then betray the trust that others have in us that I am ashamed. I am ashamed of what happened in South Vietnam. I am ashamed of what happened to the Kurds after the first Gulf War. I am ashamed because those people put their lives on the line by trusting us, and many of them paid the price for that trust.

        I don't hate America for those and other things that happened though. America is a country of optimists who are forever reinventing themselves and finding better people than were there before. Our blood never thins because people who love freedom keep coming here to chase that dream and they renew us. I hate things that America has done, but not America itself. We are human and fallible, but there is a nobility that underlies that which comes out when you least expect it.

        So no, I don't think that our meddling caused 9/11. I think our involvement in the MidEast gave Bin Laden an excuse and, because Israeli security was too strong, he chose us as number two on the long list of Satans. I think that his reasons were selfish. He is a monster who longs for his enemies to drown in lakes of blood. He derives power from the fear and the anguish that he causes, both literally and psychologically. I think that to paint him as the inevitable result of our foreign policy is to dishonor the countless people of many nationalities whose lives he has ended or ruined through his hatred, and to excuse his acts.

  •  Well put (0+ / 0-)

    I tried to make a similar point in a comment to another diary and got TR'd for it; but you have quite aptly put in the right context.  Tx.

    "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you get a lot of scum on the top." -Edward Abbey

    by rb608 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:03:29 PM PDT

  •  the horrible double standard at work (6+ / 0-)

    here is that right wing pastors like John Hagee who have said things like "Hurricane Katrina is God's judgment on New Orleans for homosexual activity", and endorsed John McCain, are not getting nearly the scrutiny that Wright (and by association, Obama) is under.

    I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing that the MSM doesn't even take people like Hagee seriously anymore, but I certainly think the flap over Wright's remarks is exponentially larger than it should be and Obama's responses have been more than sufficient.

    "In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." -BHO

    by txdreamer on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:03:29 PM PDT

    •  It's pretty simple (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      armenia, Lisactal

      Hagee was not McCain's personal pastor for 20 years.

      IMO, we are going to be seeing these clips for many months. Hell, McCain won't have to even pay for any ad copy, except,

      "Just who is Barack Obama?" For 20 years, Wright was his pastor and by his own words, a big influence in his life. Roll clips. - repeat

  •  This is the kind of pushback I (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RenMin, txdreamer, kbella
    expected to see from progressiveliberal bloggers and instead, for the most part, I saw reflexive nationalism identical to what the GOPBOTS put out.

    That was disappointing.

  •  Jerry Falwell said America deserved 9/11 (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    don mikulecky, Joga, foldingBicycle

    "JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats -- what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

    http://www.actupny.org/...

    Then Pat Robertson agreed with him.

  •  Right !!! All of you should read this. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    foldingBicycle

    "Because getting your personal beliefs regularly challenged, rather than reinforced, is important."

    ---  Devilstower, Sun Mar 16, 2008

    For the record, I have never stated that I am pro-Senator Clinton.

    by Angry Old Man on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:09:25 PM PDT

  •  I hope the Rev. Wright non-story... (0+ / 0-)

    ...kills, once and for all, the "Obama is a Muslim" falsehood.

    Obama should distance himself from Rev. Wright, but constantly call him "Reverend Wright" and "minister" to emphasize that Wright is Christian clergy.  

    It can also be a way to challenge the right-wing pastors like Hagee and Robertson, and put the pressure on McCain to distance himself from those freaks...

    9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

    by varro on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:10:09 PM PDT

  •  'Blowback' by Chalmers Johnson is the definitive (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LeftOverAmerica

    writing on what our foreign policy actions have set us  up in terms of reprisal attacks.

    Blowback

  •  Thank you Devilstower (0+ / 0-)

    for saying what most of us have been thinking.

    Doctor, could you Botox my face so that I can look surprised when Congress funds Bush's plan to blow up the world.

    by wv voice of reason on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:13:10 PM PDT

  •  Oh well, in that case... (0+ / 0-)
  •  will you never tire of making excuses for obama? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Angry Old Man, Lisactal
  •   Burned at the stake (0+ / 0-)

    Devilstower, the dye is cast.No campaign committees for you. Only right wing fundamentalists are allowed to use the words of Jesus and cherry pick them to their ends.Such audacity of truthfulness should not stand.Be thankful that burning at the stake is no longer an option and only condemnation and excommunication from the body politic is your fate. For America can do no wrong. Our soldiers have never committed attrocites.Our C.I.A. does not torture or overthrow governments.We do not maim children with landmines and cluster bombs.We do not use white phosphorus,agent orange,or depleted uranium. We have not killed millions in Vietnam or Iraq.We have not oppressed the brown and black.God help anyone who says anything against us. Distort what was a condemnation of the tactics that our country has engaged in and twist that damnation into praying to God for Americas damnantion and use it for political advantage.Now how Godly is that? Would we just close our ears and not hear of these things. Just shut our eyes so we do not see an ugly reality? Just close our minds so that measured judgement will not interfere with the pablum feed us by the Murdoch Press? Is Reverend Wright Righteous? Does he seek to arouse us from the slumber and oblivion that fogs our perceptions and arouse our indignation inciting us to take action?Politically correct he is not and his choice of words would exclude his selection to the diplomatic corp, but his aim is moral righteousness as a teacher of the gospel of Jesus Christ.And we would cast stones.

  •  Billary (0+ / 0-)

    Here's what I don't get:

    Hillary Clinton is married to a well-known serial adulterer.  Why in the world does she get a pass on co-habitating with someone who disrespects the sacred institution of marriage, while Obama is expected to answer for the statements of his Pastor?

    Something is wrong with this picture...

    •  I have a hard time (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lisactal, Roxy Hope

      with people who condemn women for following their marriage vows. For better or worse means what it says - you allow for the (often repeated) human failings of your chosen mate.  Just because your mate may behave like an ass at times does not give you a free pass to ignore the fact that you have entered into the "sacred institution" and the expectation was that you will move heaven and earth to make it work throuhout whatever difficulties you may encounter. But try sticking it out in America and you will be forever an object of scorn.

      Something is wrong with this picture...

      "God is not on the side of the heavy battalions, but of the best shots."- Voltaire

      by armenia on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:01:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  MLK: America you are arrogant (6+ / 0-)

    http://youtube.com/...

    "Don't let anybody make you think God chose America as his divine messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with justice and it seems I can hear God saying to America "you are too arrogant, and if you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power, and I will place it in the hands of a nation that doesn't even know my name. Be still and know that I'm God. Men will beat their swords into plowshafts and their spears into pruning hooks, and nations shall not rise up against nations, neither shall they study war anymore." I don't know about you, I ain't going to study war anymore."

    Martin Luther King Jr.
    Address to the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (1967-08-16)

    •  The sad thing is that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      valadon

      it was not until he started to highlight his opposition to the (Vietnam) war that the powers that be decided to do away with him. They knew that, coming from MLK, people might finally begin to question the real motives of their so called "leaders."

      "God is not on the side of the heavy battalions, but of the best shots."- Voltaire

      by armenia on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:07:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's always dangerous to (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, armenia, foldingBicycle

    point out that the emperor has no clothes.  Wright's biggest problem is that he spoke the unspeakable.  As a government whistleblower, I know the painful consequences of telling people they have done wrong. Hence, my signature line.

    Speak the truth, but ride a fast horse.

    by Deep Harm on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:23:20 PM PDT

    •  Please go read this. I can't write a diary yet (0+ / 0-)

      or I would

    •  Schaeffer's Crazy for God is a great look at (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      laderrick

      the rise of the religious right, if you're interested. The first two-thirds of the book are more autobiographical but the last third deals with Schaeffer's connections to Dobson, Graham and Robertson in unflattering terms.

      Great article. Glad you posted it. I knew Frank's parents, the Schaeffers. His writing about them in such critical terms has become the source of much controversy among evangelicals.

  •  Last week he was a muslim! (0+ / 0-)

    This week he's not the correct type of Christian!

    I really wish the haters would get this sorted out!

    Also:  Article VI Clause III of the U.S. Constitution.  

    Everyone in the establishment press really needs to look it up.

    The future isn't what it used be.

    by Beelzebud on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:25:45 PM PDT

    •  the muslim thing was wrong, but this is right (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lisactal

      muslim accusations were plain wrong. factually wrong.

      this on the other hand is simply fact.  a man has spent his life with bigots. he chose this for himself when he thought no one was looking.  the paster is one who gives awards and high praise to known bigots thus revealing his own sympathies with such ideas.

      its revealing about his true character.  most progressives i know would have their bile rise in their throat if they were forced to attend such a church.  and yet obama did for 20 years and seeked advice from the man personally.  any decent progressive who actually believed in what they said they believed would have at the very least walked out of such a hate ridden place.  that he didn't speaks volumes.  

      he is either a dupe, or he is lying to our face. this church is openly extremist. the paster doens't hide his fringe beliefs. yet he tells us he didn't know for 20 years of his close relationship.  does he think we are stupid?  or is he just that oblivious.  either way i don't see how anyone can defend him as a good candidate for the most powerful position on earth.  you'd have to have some serious blinders on to keep defending this man.

  •  So Goes the Old Joke: (0+ / 0-)

    Jesus came to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

    Amen.

    Support the Netroots Candidates! A VETO-PROOF majority in 2008!!!

    by InquisitiveRaven on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:27:12 PM PDT

  •  Wow (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sagittarius
    I'm surprised by many of ths comments on this thread.  People who are saying that Wright is a lunatic need to go listen to some of his other sermons and his interview with Hannity in KO's diary last night.  The man is anything BUT a lunatic.

    Good diary DT, I agree with everything you said.

    "automatic delegates", my ass

    by zombie on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:30:02 PM PDT

  •  Amen. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sagittarius, Mikesco

    That is all.

    For on the ground coverage in Mississippi year-round you should check out Cotton Mouth blog.

    by cottonmouthblog on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:31:49 PM PDT

  •  It still doesn't matter what (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    catfood
    Obama's pastor said or didn't say, what any of us say or don't say-it's axiomatic amongst conservatives that we hate America and are traitors. Don't apologize for what anyone in our camp says. They'll still call you a traitor.

    People don't wanna see the news-it's boring. People wanna see animals. Close up. With a wide angle lens.

    by PLCOT on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:31:52 PM PDT

  •  If you condemn / distance yourself from Wright (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OCdem

    does this mean you're a spineless wimp without principals?  Just asking.

    Oprah? Nah, I'm voting however Jerry Springer tells me to.

    by Barry in MIA on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:34:27 PM PDT

  •  Thank you DT....Just Fucking THANK YOU. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sagittarius, Mikesco, don mikulecky

    You snatched the truth right out of my heart.

    I belong to no organized political party, I'm a Democrat. -Will Rogers

    by geez53 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:34:31 PM PDT

  •  remember the time Jesus kicked ass in temple (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    foreign noise, don mikulecky

    he grabbed a whip and started beating the fuckers who were selling shit in church

    hmmm...

    what would jesus do to Rod Parsley and John Hagee?

    they sell shit in church.

    i guess, i guess he would kick their asses with a whip.

    wow.  imagine a preacher saying that greedy religous conmen should be whipped.

    that would be a youtube hit.

    Hillary Clinton for Secretary of... the White House? That's who answers the phone there at 3am, right?

    by AntonBursch on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:34:41 PM PDT

  •  Could Thomas Jefferson be elected today (4+ / 0-)

    This isn't what his minister said (in part because he doesn't seem to have been a regular church-goer, at least as an adult), but what HE said:

    I tremble for the future of my country when I consider that God is Just, and His Justice cannot sleep forever.

    "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin

    by leevank on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:35:35 PM PDT

  •  Here's An Interesting Question, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, don mikulecky

    Submitted for your consideration...

    If a self-styled cynic, agnostic and iconoclast like H.L. Mencken can be universally applauded and lionized for his equally self-appointed mission "to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable," then why are those very same disciples of Mencken so quick to judge preachers like Jeremiah Wright who are employing exactly the same tactics?

    I submit that there is a prejudice endemic to our society which demands that our preachers and prophets will be tolerated only insofar as they espouse and promote a meaningless credo of platitudes which affirm the values of corporate America (like Robert Shuler or Norman Vincent Peale), or else they keep themselves marginalized in some Apocalyptic right-wing niche which lends ancillary support to our imperialistic foreign policy (like John Hagee or Pat Robertson).

    Any man who preaches a social gospel which challenges the way we do things on a daily basis is, de facto, a crackpot and an insurrectionist...

    Hmmm, doesn't that story sound familiar?  

    But I wash my hands of the whole affair.  After all, what is truth?

  •  So much for the "reality based community" (0+ / 0-)

    All this talk about Jesus and sermons, etc is making me very uncomfortable. It doesn't seem that long ago that most folks here were tired of hearing about "faith based initiatives" and the influence of religion in politics.

    Frankly, I want someone as president who is thoroughly grounded in reality. It's starting to look like Sen. Obama is not the one.

    •  Except that.. (0+ / 0-)

      The reality is that religious faith has been dominating a lot of importance decisions in the White House for many years. Obama's religious faith, like that of Rev. Wright's, is one that emphasizes tolerance and acceptance and is truly admirable. He's not going to start the presidency with a Bible on the White House desk. He's going to be the president with basic principles of equality, fairness, justice and opportunity that should mark any individual's philosophy. They certainly mark my own, and I am an atheist. If these principles somehow aren't based in reality, then you must be on a different planet.

      •  And a change from this (0+ / 0-)

        "The reality is that religious faith has been dominating a lot of importance decisions in the White House for many years."

        is something I would like to see. The fact that BO feels the need to seek advice from a nut job like JW does not give me a good feeling.

  •  Jesus was engaged in a class war (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wanda517, don mikulecky, Roxy Hope

    And, he was engaged in a rural v. urban war - largely due to the inherent wealth chasm. The man was a rebel, yet so many want to paint him as only a peace, love and joy type. Not so.

    Back to today's topic: if everyone who has attended church has agreed with their pastor (or church) 100% of the time and felt they always had to, raise your hand...okay, if you raised your hand, you need to think for yourself a little more often.

    It is absolutely ludicrous that people are outraged on either side of this issue. Wright has reason and right to be pissed and level his complaint; Obama has the right to disagree with the message or the delivery and say so.

    This is the biggest bunch of non-news there is. The one upside for me is that Obama is NOT being all churchy because he is expected to be. I'm glad he will stand against it if he feels like it.

    "We are Americans and we choose to be inspired." - John Edwards

    by michele2 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:41:03 PM PDT

  •  Triple Amen! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, Sagittarius

    Thankyou Devilstower for stepping back and taking a breath. Whites don't react well to liberation theology. Just like everyone jumped on Michelle for saying she hasn't been proud of her country for a long time. Well, you know, I'm a White middle-aged, middle-class woman who feels the same. Stop reacting and start thinking!

  •  Well said (0+ / 0-)

    you Devil you. I completly agree with you I am also very angry at many of the same things the reverend is upset about. Under King George we have become a dying nation ,not because the majority of our countrymen are evil .. they are mostly good. But our idiot president and his cronies have made this country very angry and feeling trapped because we feel helpless. The media is disgusting, it reminds me in a way how they destroyed Howard Deans campaign because he showed some passion. God forbid. And to top it off as I said to my wife over 3 years ago , its only a matter of time untill Bush destroys our economy. I hope I'm wrong. Obama had to do what he had to do, but you know in your heart he agrees with you.

  •  we stilll posting apologist nonsense about this? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Larry Bailey, OCdem

    please daily kos, do you really have progressive ideals?

    if hilary or a republican had a racist preacher at a racist church that praised the grand wizard of the kkk as a man of integrity and honesty, would you then defend his bible quotes?

    the very fact that he's praising and actually giving awards to a known antisemite and racist is quite enough.  that you'd bend over backwards to dissect his sermons in a better light is frankly a bit disgusting.

    the obama campaign was supposed to be about higher ideals. but i see these ideals are just words that go right out the door when convenient.

    just remember, if you wouldn't do this or approve if the shoe were on the other foot, somethings wrong with what you are doing.  and i can almost garrantee that obama supporters would never have become apologists if this had been revealed about someone else.

    •  Freddy is so Right (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Larry Bailey

      Read beneath the lines---this is why Progressives have made so little headway in the last twenty years.  Its all about making character relative. I was voting for Obama, now I won't.  He has shown either very bad judgment or in fact, buys the utter nonsense of this "man of God".  

    •  what the fuck?? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      catfood, Sagittarius, geez53, paintitblue

      you know, Rev Wright didn't say a goddamn fucking thing wrong in the first place.

      1. WASPs(white anglo saxon protestants) DO run this country, everyone knows this
      1. Hillary DOESN'T know what it is like to be called a nigger.  and Obama doesn't know what it is like to be called a bitch.
      1. GOD DAMN America doesn't mean Fuck America, which you can see clearly if you watch more than 30 seconds.  he was saying that if America wants the BLESSING of GOD that they cannot kill innocent people.  he was saying that rather than BLESS america that God would DAMN america for killing innocent people.

      Now, who the FUCK are YOU or ANYONE to say that America deserves the BLESSING of God??

      Do YOU know GOD?  Did he tell you that America deserves to be blessed or damned for killing innocent people?

      IS JESUS AN AMERICAN????

      Give me a god damn fucking break.

      This whole controversy is about hypocrits like you masturbating about fucking nothing.

      Hillary Clinton for Secretary of... the White House? That's who answers the phone there at 3am, right?

      by AntonBursch on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:02:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then why is Obama (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Immolate

        running away from the guy? If Wright is so right, why won't Obama take a stand and defend him?

        •  Did you read DT's work? It's right up there. ^ (0+ / 0-)

          And he didn't use any really big words or anything.

          I belong to no organized political party, I'm a Democrat. -Will Rogers

          by geez53 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:14:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  because being right doesn't heal a nation (5+ / 0-)

          and Obama is making a stand to rise above the racism and sexism and all hate and fighting in this country and to attempt to lead the country toward healing and uniting

          and Obama does reject what his pastor said

          and Obama doesn't reject his pastor

          because it is time to heal this nation

          Obama is playing ambassador to the different people of this country

          Hillary Clinton for Secretary of... the White House? That's who answers the phone there at 3am, right?

          by AntonBursch on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:17:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Man, are you really asking these questions (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sagittarius

          or are you just trying to stir things up?

          Are these like meta-questions based on candidate bias?

          You're speaking in Faux News sound-bites.

      •  Hang on Anton, Look down thread. this mental (0+ / 0-)

        giant wants to vote for Hitler again. /snark

        I belong to no organized political party, I'm a Democrat. -Will Rogers

        by geez53 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:11:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  ? um you need to do some basic research (0+ / 0-)

        even if you discount his sermon, his giving awards and high praise to lewis farrakhan reveals his true nature as a bigot.  a right minded person would not award a bigot like that regardless of what he's done.  its undefendable frankly.

        "This whole controversy is about hypocrits like you masturbating about fucking nothing."

        i think the shoe is on the other foot.  its hypocrites like you that make a sham of your own supposed ideals  with your selective application of reason.  you would be the first to laugh at someone who used the same apologist arguments if this had happened to someone else.

    •  Spare me your outrage. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sagittarius

      It's sad.  It's time for a little introspection.

  •  Frank Schaeffer has a good piece at HuffPost (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    laderrick, LNK, RenMin, JulieUnplugged

    Frank Schaeffer's father was a leader of the Religious Right, and very popular with the leaders of the Republican party.   Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" but When my Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero

    Good article.  I recommend it.

    •  I endorse the Huffington Post piece, too: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      laderrick

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

      I'm finding it helpful to learn more about theologians of political influence on the Left and on the Right.

      As I was reading about Schaeffer I could almost hear cuckoo birds singing:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

      by LNK on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:46:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  so obama is as bad as the worst republican. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Immolate

      i don't see how any rational person can pretend this is a defense.  whats worse is that obamas paster is actually worse than the frank shaeffer.  as far as i know shaeffer didn't give awards to the grand dragon of the kkk.  obamas minister gave awards to and praised farrakhan a known racist antisemite as honest and a man of integrity.  that shows exactly what his sympathies are. perhaps republicans should have their associations pointed out, but it isn't a defense for obama when obamas situation is worse. obama went to this racist church for 20 years.  In his 1993 memoir "Dreams from My Father," Obama recounts in vivid detail his first meeting with Wright in 1985. The pastor warned the community activist that getting involved with Trinity might turn off other black clergy because of the church's radical reputation.

      now he lies to our faces about his ignorant of wrights bigotry.

      he is so much worse than your republican example defense that its not funny.  and that the defense trotted out is so weak shows how bad it is.  

  •  Hitler Wasn't So Bad (1+ / 3-)

    This whole Wright affair reminds me of Germany.  Yup, good old Germany, where Adolph made the economy better, restored pride in the people, and brought justice to the German people.  I mean, I went to every rally---heard him lambaste the Commies and the Jews---but he didn't really mean it.  I just followed him around to all those Reifensthalian staged events  and enjoyed the pomp and the circumstance. I mean maybe he went a little to far but you have to look at the man as a whole. Give him a break and understand how angry he was after WW1 and the betrayal of Versailles.

    I am shocked that Obama never stood up and walked out of the church. I guess I sit this one out---although it will hardly matter in my state, Obama wins easily.

    •  I just saw a diary over at (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      EvilPaula, blueness

      MyDD called "Is Obama like Hitler?".  They took it down and diarist just apologized.  But there comes a time where one is either a paid blogger or one needs to ask oneself some serious questions about where this contest has gone and how far one is willing to go to make a point.  Introspection is sorely needed.

      •  Obama is Not Hitler--- (0+ / 0-)

        You missed the whole point of my post.  This has nothing to do with Obama, or for that matter Wright.  It has more to do with the willingness of educated people to ignore critical questions of character and courage.

        •  It sounds like it was about Wright. (4+ / 0-)

          A comparison of Wright to Hitler is so absurd, so straight from Right-Wing talking points, so off point that I can't believe you're making it.  A statement that the educated people on dKos are like pre-war Germans is so nonsensical that it's beyond the pale.

          I am shocked that Obama never stood up and walked out of the church.

          How much do you know about UCC and Reverend Wright?  I think all you know is what you heard on TV if you're making this comment.

          •  Dummy, Its not Hitler. (0+ / 0-)

            The merely shows that you didn't read my post correctly.  My critique was of people like you, who make excuses for people like Wright.  In fact, the key part of my post was to compare people like you to the "good Germans" who were willing to ignore the hideous aspects of Hitler's philosophy because he did some things well.

            I don't have to know anything more about Wright.  I saw him, I heard what he said.  He is a vicious racist and Obama is a coward for putting up with him for so many years.  By the way, until the Wright story emerged, I was firmly in Obama's corner.  

            •  I will refrain from using ad hominem attacks, (0+ / 0-)

              despite your choice to do so.

              He is a vicious racist and Obama is a coward

              That is a statement that shows no nuance and no knowledge of the context in which Wright is speaking.  If you want to know what I'm talking about take a look at prison statistics.  You might also want to listen to some of the other things Wright has said.  But I'm guessing from the tone of your comment, that you are not interested in that.

              You seem mad about the whole thing.  I'm not.  I think Wright made some silly statements and they certainly won't play well in the political scene.  But there's a big difference between the nonsense they push on Fox News about people and people.

              Thanks for comparing me to "good Germans".  That's a pretty balanced view of me.

            •  By the way, I'm well aware that my (0+ / 0-)

              responses are serving to reinforce your opinion that I'm a "good German".  That's intentional.  The reason is that as soon as you put it into such an irrational context, the argument becomes absurd.  Preachers are a dime a dozen and they say silly things.  To compare someone who is not all that worked up about what another preacher is saying, or someone who is willing to give some leeway to black preachers in America (considering the history of racism in this country) to pre-war Germany discredits you.

    •  You should go (0+ / 0-)

      back to freeper.com. The real hitlers are waiting for you there. Hitler was a right-wing.

      Also I believe funds during that time were donated to the RNC by Adolf..

  •  Wright is a hate mongering anti semitic racist (2+ / 0-)

    Why Obama wound up at a church with such a wacko for a pastor, I'll never know.

    And yeah, he's definitely saying "FU America" Have you seen his racist diatribe that 9/11 was exactly what 'white America' deserved?

    How this kind of outrageous racism and hatred of America squares with the Obama themes of being a post racial uniter bringing hope to America is  bit beyond me.

    "Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth." -- JFK

    by Tryptophan on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:01:20 PM PDT

    •  Sexist too (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mikesco, Tryptophan

      Don't forget the screeching sound when he uttered Hillary's name. What did she ever do to deserve such venom?

    •  Ah, the outrage - straight from Fux News. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mikesco

      Interesting use of the term "racist".

    •  if he is, then you are an religous bigot (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sagittarius, mrchumchum, paintitblue

      he wasn't saying Fuck You to America.

      if you were a christian, then you would understand what he meant

      you don't, so, clearly, you aren't

      Hillary Clinton for Secretary of... the White House? That's who answers the phone there at 3am, right?

      by AntonBursch on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:13:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Which wingnut blog sent you here? nt (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sagittarius, mrchumchum, paintitblue

      Osama has killed his thousands, and Bush his tens of thousands.

      by Sura 109 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:20:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Define RACISM! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      paintitblue

      What do you mean by "racist?" Do you mean he said horrible things about White people?

      I got news for you: that doesn't make Wright a racist. It MIGHT make him a bigot - if he really feels that he's better than Whites. But it hardly makes him an automatic racist.

      I take this rhetoric seriously as an African American. A RACIST is someone who has the power to withhold rights or advantage to me, and does so because of my race. I am hard-pressed to believe that Wright has that kind of power. I get tired of White people pulling this "reverse-racism" bullshit. It just isn't possible, unless you're talking about denying entry into a Black nightclub or something. Racism is about the exercise of power and privilege. No matter how much influence Wright might have, he doesn't exercise the kind of power that can place White people at any kind of a disadvantage.

      So please - do us (Black people) a favor, and take this definition seriously.  

      As far as the charge of Anti-Semitism, what you need to know is that Wright is closer to being a Semite than most Jews I know. By that I mean that most Jews I know are of European descent. Wright, being of African descent, is closer to being a Semite, in that regard. So I again, I reject this nonsense. Just because he (and many others, including me) are unafraid of charging the Israeli hardliners - Zionists - with practicing genocide against the Palestinians doesn't mean he hates them BECAUSE they are Jews - or even Semites. He, along with the rest of 'our types' hate WHAT THEY ARE DOING. This is a far cry from hating THEM as human beings.

      Do you think you can grasp these distinctions?

      •  don't play dumb, its insulting to everyone (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tryptophan

        its very simple.  imagine if a white minister gave awards to the grand dragon of the kkk.  heaped praise upon him calling him an honest man of integrity and such.  would you think hey, perhaps that minister is just rewarding the kkk guy for sending money or something and doesn't agree with him one bit? of course not.  a right thinking person wouldn't give such a race hating bigot the time of day, let alone heap praise upon him and hand him awards.  it takes a person who already agrees with such vile stuff to support that kind of man in any way. its a perfect window into the corrupt soul of the man.

        and jesus, you are seriously dancing on the antisemitism. don't play games with the term.  it means what it means because it was defined as such.  if you want to break it down to play word games to dodge the real issue that you are antisemetic, well fine. but don't pretend you are any better than a person who dodges the fact that he is homophobic by trying to tell you that he isn't homophobic because he isn't scared of man which is what it would mean if you broke it down in the absurd way you did with antisemitism.

        you obviously have some antisemitic issues going on here, and i guess nothing would convince you that obama is dodgy because you are probably the kind that agrees with mr wright when it comes down to it.

      •  So rednecks aren't racist? (0+ / 0-)

        Who knew!!! They don't actually have POWER to do anything so them being flagrant and deliberate racists is apparently all a misunderstanding of definitions.

        Of course Wright's comments are racist. Your attempts to misdefine racism are revealing to the depths of dishonesty which Obama supporters are willing to descend.

        [quote]I get tired of White people pulling this "reverse-racism" bullshit. It just isn't possible[/quote]

        Get a clue, you racist.

        "Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth." -- JFK

        by Tryptophan on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:57:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Blah, blah. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, Sagittarius, geez53

    All the outrage signifying nothing.  People and the MSM like their scandals and the only question is how addicted they will get to this one.  What should Obama say to a nation addicted to Fux News and the sick MSM?  Will it hurt him?  Tune in to Fux News to find out.

    I'm not in the least bit surprised at all of the "Gotcha" comments.  Straight from the daily news cycle.  It's just the news cycle outrage.  It's like clockwork.  If one is looking for some absurd perfection in a candidate then one should probably turn off the TV.  Books are better; there's more humanity to be found there.

    As to the question of whether Obama himself hates America.  My answer: No.  Did Obama betray his church?  No.  Does Obama hate his pastor?  No.  Does Obama think that 9/11 is more complex than just terrorists are evil?  Probably.  I hope so.

  •  The bleeding obvious (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, Tired of the Bull

    God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human.

    Since the people on the receiving end of this particular damnable behavior are Americans, it should be bleeding obvious to everyone but the goose-stepping Busholaters that this is aimed at the government and the Publicans that control it, not at the nation itself.

    Osama has killed his thousands, and Bush his tens of thousands.

    by Sura 109 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:16:23 PM PDT

  •  God vs. Caesar (5+ / 0-)

    I never understood as child how political Jesus' sayings were.  I guess I would have clued in sooner if I had known that the method of his execution was reserved for rebels. But I didn't know that fact. I live, as Friedrich Nietzshe observed, "in a time that no longer knows the function and ignominy of the cross."  

    And they send some of the Pharisees and the Herodians to him to trap him with a riddle.  They come and say to him, "Teacher, we know that you are honest and impartial, because you pay no attention to appearances, but instead you teach God's way forthrightly.  Is it permissible to pay the poll tax to the Roman emperor or not?  Should we pay or should we not pay?"

    But he saw through their trap, and said to them, "Why do you provoke me like this?  Let me have a look at a coin."

    They handed him a silver coin, and he says to them, "Whose picture is this?  Whose name is on it?"

    They replied, "The emeror's."

    Jesus said to them: "Pay the emperor what belongs to the emperor, and God what belongs to God!"  And they were dumbfounded at him.

    This is likely what coin is referred to in the story above.  Note the inscription "Divus Julius", which refers to Augustus' deification of Julius as a means of giving authority to his own claims to the office of emperor.  

    What I get from this saying is that Jesus was giving a direct slap in the face to Rome, by making such a distinction between God and the Emperor.  It would raise peoples' hair, and provoke their deepest allegiances.  It would be a lot like saying,

    God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.

    •  Bravo postxian. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      postxian, Dave the Rave, mrchumchum

      I like Dominic Crossan's works that detail this understanding of how Jesus's rhetoric and actions were aimed at undermining empire. Revolutionary, for sure.

      •  Thanks (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dave the Rave, geez53

        I think it was Crossan who said that if you want to translate Jesus' sayings into a modern idiom, try to think of something that might get you arrested.  

        •  Yes, Jesus was teh Revolutionary of his time, (0+ / 0-)

          But more in the vein of the Mahatma and less like Abbey Hoffman. The wider point of his answer was to delineate between the affairs of state or politics and the affairs of heaven ("My kingdom is not of this earth"). He was definitely socialist and wanted nothing more than for all of us to treat each other as brother or sister. Or in the words of the greatest philosophers of their time, Bill and Ted, "Be excellent to each other".
          The remark was taken as a slap in the face by the Romans and Pilate literally washed his hands of the affair.

          I belong to no organized political party, I'm a Democrat. -Will Rogers

          by geez53 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:16:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Do you think Mahatma (0+ / 0-)

            would have thrown the money-changers out of the temple? Some might call that an act of violence.  I'm just asking ...

            •  That's why i said 'more in the vein of' instead (0+ / 0-)

              of 'just like'. The outburst at the temple was a rare show of temper, one that is completely justified IMO, akin to the reaction you'd have if someone was selling your child.
              To answer your question though, the Mahatma would have organized a huge set-in, 2 or 3 hundred people setting on the change tables.
              Sorry for the late response, made the sad mistake of getting involved in yet another candidate spittin' match. Had to go for a walk. Long Walk.

              I belong to no organized political party, I'm a Democrat. -Will Rogers

              by geez53 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 01:36:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I'll never listen to JC's endorsements again! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    postxian, Dave the Rave

    This Jesus guy is positively unAmerican! I bet he's on the no-fly list by now, even if he wasn't until you posted this. I expect to hear McCain rejecting, denouncing, and condemning that radical, foreign, bearded, preacher forthwith.

    Cry, the beloved country, these things are not yet at an end. - Alan Paton

    by rcbowman on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:49:43 PM PDT

  •  Tax exempt status should be revoked... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StuartZ, mrchumchum, abraxas

    I'm an Obama supporter but Wright standing in front of the congregation and saying the things he did about Obama and his opponents merit removing tax-exempt status.  If this was a conservative evangelical church people would be up in arms.  Liberal or conservative, a church is no place for guilting your minions into voting for one person or the other.

    As far as the rest of the videos we've seen, he's mostly right about 9/11.   Believing that gawd punished the US for gays, AIDS etc. as was stated by Falwell/Robertson takes a complete disregard of science.  Believing that the US pissed off tons of people by bullying the world doesn't take a full loss of reason.  Wright's sociological statements sound like someone who combated racism like anyone under 40 can't possibly imagine.  Yelling like its still 1967 does nothing to impress the younger demographic, regardless of ethnicity, that Obama has been reaching.  We don't need black this, white that; we need people this, people that.

  •  I didn't hear any unorthodox statement by Wright (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    scottmaui, Sagittarius, geez53

    in the clips posted on YouTube.  Really, can anyone point to a comment and demonstrate that it was anti-Biblical?  Have you READ the Bible, especially the prophets?   Ok, the comment about Jesus being a black man is a little of a stretch, but he definitely wasn't white - despite millions of Sunday School pictures showing him with white skin and blue eyes.

    We can expect trash from Fox News, but real Christians should stop and think before they react to this.

    •  Real Christians? (0+ / 0-)

      Who cares if what Jeremiah said was 'biblical'. So what? I take "Goddamn America" at face value. Barack has listened to this kind of crap for twenty years -- and didn't get the hell away from this nut while he had the chance.

      Honest arguments need honest effort

      by Political Logic on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:20:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  America put George Batshit and Dicks Chinny in (0+ / 0-)

        charge for 8 YEARS, America killed At least 600K Iraqis in an Oil War. America squashed the last true democracy in Iran. We been bad. And we won't get good if we don't own that. "My country, right or wrong" isn't just dangerously simplistic, It's Fatally Stupid.
        I enlisted in '71, not a very popular move back then. But i did it as an American, Not as America. And that isn't just semantics.

        I belong to no organized political party, I'm a Democrat. -Will Rogers

        by geez53 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:44:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well I guess you're using the logic (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        paintitblue

        implied by your user name.  My version of logic requires that one consider context.

        The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, Goddamn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people. Goddamn America for treating our citizens as less than human. Goddamn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.

        You choose to hear "Goddamn America".

        I choose to hear "Goddamn America for treating our citizens as less than human.  Goddamn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

        Are they heated, hyperbolic and somewhat innacurate?  Of course.  But I don't think it takes a great deal of generosity to think that there's some truth in these statements, if you consider the context.

        •  You don't get it (0+ / 0-)

          Guess what? It doesn't matter what I hear. Do you really think the average voter is going to consider context here? I smell 1972, 1980, 1984, 1988, 2000, and 2004. The Clintons know how to win. It may not be pretty, but they get the job done.

          Honest arguments need honest effort

          by Political Logic on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:02:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I do get it. I get it completely. (0+ / 0-)

            I don't want to "get the job done" the way they do.  That's all.  Of course, you're free to prefer their way.  No biggie to me.  You should realize, though, that I'm not what your response implies: naive.

      •  Right. (0+ / 0-)

        We should elect a president who's been raised on the usual nationalist bullshit, just like george w. bush was.

        Osama has killed his thousands, and Bush his tens of thousands.

        by Sura 109 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:12:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  you are sticking your head into the sand. (0+ / 0-)

      its not just the video, theres a wide variety of quotes from the man.  the fact that he gives awards and unqualified praise to monsters like lewis farrakhan show his true nature. and thats just what he feels is appropriate to say in public. who knows what they say behind closed doors.

      do not stick your head in the sand like a bushie and a hypocrite. some illusions are comfortable. but they are wrong. and they are bad for you

      •  Monsters like Lewis (0+ / 0-)

        Farrakhan? What makes Farrakhan a monster? Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending him (for reasons that are so far beyond what you'd understand, I won't bother to say more). But that said, I'd like to know what he did that you would consider as MONSTROUS???  PLEASE - do tell!!!  How many people did he torture? Starve to death? Separate from their families? Enslave? Murder? Bankrupt?  What did he do?  How many lives did he destroy??  I'm assuming you have something here to back up the charge of Monsterdom?

        •  depends how low your standards are. he is HATE (0+ / 0-)

          hate and irrationality is what lewis farrakhan represents.  you don't have to murder anyone to spread intolerance. you just create the conditions for disaster and suffering.  

          i mean really, who did bush kill with his own hands really?  you really want to stay with your logic?  farrakhan is clean as bush is then ok?  

          by any progressive persons standards, lewis farrakhan is a hate spreading racist monster.

  •  Damn! (0+ / 0-)

    Guess what? They crucified Jesus. Jeremiah Wright and his followers (including Barack) might be in for a figurative crucifixion themselves. Too bad, it was only words -- but in the absence of experience, I guess that is all Barack has. It will be interesting to see how the change candidate changes the interpretation of these words.

    Honest arguments need honest effort

    by Political Logic on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:02:45 PM PDT

  •  JFK speech link - defending his church (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon

    Here's an impressive JFK speech link, him vehemently defending his patriotism despite someone's fear about his church:
    JFK defending his church
    Makes me think a lot of Obama and the current attacks on his church.

  •  Keep it separate (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, foldingBicycle

    Kos,

    I appreciate all the thoughtful insight.

    I shall likely never speak for my fellow man except when speaking for and of myself. As an American and independent free thinker, everyone has a right to speak. The mix of religion with politics is unavoidable in this day, we should look to the wisdom of the Constitution, the separation of church and state and espouse that credo and carry it to a personal level. It seems as if everyone has forgotten that no one is or can be responsible for what another person says. The fact that the media drives that angle should be disputed by all by asking each pundit if they will accept responsibility for what you or I say, end of story as they will not and can not do so.   When speaking from a pulpit, fire and brimstone speech within a church is where it needs to stay, you can either attend or tune the dial to the cable or an airwave channel to receive your form of religious dogma of choice that feeds your soul. Each us would find the others somehow repulsive or strange, that is why our beliefs and how we express or participate in them is a private matter. That is an unshakable truth. When I was a young boy a persons religious belief and political persuasion was a private matter and it was considered rude to ask about either. Boy that died a quick death with the wireless age.

    I am in awe of the writers of Daily Kos, the dedication, amount of time and research by the authors is most impressive and I want to thank you all as I have learned a great deal.

    Rattlemullet

  •  Excellent Diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon

    I don't even have anything to add...you said it all.  Unfortunately due to the (purposefully) shocking nature of Wright comments, most people won't take the time to analyze and consider what he said. Most people will just run with their initial gut reaction which is Wright said something that wasn't pro-America, therefore Wright, and by proxy Obama, hates America.

  •  Chickens and the law of unintended circumstances. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    scottmaui, valadon, don mikulecky

    Ike's CIA overthrew the democratically elected govt of the secular Mohammed Mossadegh in 1953. Replacing him with the Shah of Iran, and his secret police. Thus the Ayatollah Ruhullah Khomeini and all that followed was Ike's fault.

    In 1959 Saddam and other Ba'athists tried to assassinate Abdul Karim Qassim with CIA backing. In 1963 the Ba'ath Party overthrew Qassim. Saddam came to power in 1968. Saddam fought a war against Iran with our backing. The US supplied him with all kind of weapons, including CBW.

    So it looks like the USA/CIA killed more innocent people than anyone else. And we created two of the Axis of Evil. How's that for unintended?

    BTW this is not a left/right issue, Presidents from both parties screwed-up!!!  

    Also look at all the other screw-ups around the world we were involved in, shameful.

    You win more friends with kindness than terror. When will we ever learn?

  •  our nominee is strong (0+ / 0-)

    3-4 days of attack and he is only down by 2% point

    from 50%-48%

    he is still ahead of "Monster Inc" in rasmussen and Gallup daily

    •  In fact he went up in Rasmussen (0+ / 0-)

      After a dip yesterday he bounced back up a point today.

      Here's the last week:

      46
      48
      47
      48
      50
      46
      47

      in other words, today he's just about where he was a week ago, with a small blip in between.

      with an MOE +/- 3 points, it is al basically within the MOE

      hard to tell if this is anything other than just noise, at least until we see a few more days of polling.

  •  Summary (0+ / 0-)

    Religious people are crazy.

  •  Hillary and her supporters are the republicans (0+ / 0-)

    this is essentially a General election,

    just look at how they are behaving,
    they dont care that she is not vetted (release the tax return, release the liberary record, release the earmarks, release the white house pappers)

    she have not explain where the 5 Million $ came from.

  •  OT, "Damn You Rich" a great cartoon (0+ / 0-)

    by William Steig if you scroll down this page:

    http://bp1.blogger.com/...

    Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

    by LNK on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:36:50 PM PDT

  •  My apologies DT, I need a break (0+ / 0-)

    I belong to no organized political party, I'm a Democrat. -Will Rogers

    by geez53 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:50:28 PM PDT

  •  Malcom X was a man who moved a lot (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    scottmaui, valadon

    of people.  I find his story incredibly inspiring.  Yeah, he didn't have a lot of nice things to say about white people, especially in his early days.  Did he have any reason to say anything nice about white people?  His father was murdered for being too outspoken.  The cops deemed it a suicide, even though he was bashed in the back of the head, tied up and left on the railroad tracks.  Because it was "suicide" his life insurance wouldn't pay anything, leaving the family destitute.  Then the social workers took the children away from their mother, who was later institutionalized.  Malcolm was told by the white teachers that he couldn't aspite to be a lawyer, even though he was smart, because he was just a n**** boy.  

    I'm not a big fan of the nation of Islam Malcolm followed, mostly because its teachings treat women as second-class citizens, and the property of men.  But I won't demonize a man for saying unpleasant things about white people when he grew up experiencing the kind of institutionalized racism that he did.

    "YOPP!" --Horton Hears a Who

    by Reepicheep on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:55:27 PM PDT

  •  How do chickens come home to roost? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, cdembrey

    They do that when you do something that has predictable consequenses.  Is terrorism like that?  Well, one whole lot of it is.  

    I lived in Israel from 1963 to 1965.  I saw what was happening in the Palestinian refugee camps.  The Israelis and the Arabs were cultivating a problem that could have been avoided.  generations suffered in those camps.  No one did anything.  The United States sat by and watched or supported the countries that kept those people down.  Now we have the result.  It was predictable and preventable and the solution would have cost almost nothing next to what we have paid over and over again for such evil foolishness.

    Waste your time complaining about a pastor's outrage.  But remember it was this country that sat by and let it get to this.  It was preventable and predictable!

    An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

    by don mikulecky on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:33:33 PM PDT

  •  Jesus had the authority so say what he did (0+ / 0-)

    Wright assumes his authority and uses it politically, big difference.

    •  Every pastor, (0+ / 0-)

      to some extent assumes the authority. Kind of hard to preach the Word without it. Its not fair to single Wright out for this.

    •  That was my problem with Wright. (0+ / 0-)

      It actually wasn't the fiery rhetoric, which is so commonplace in America that I can only assume that the outrage people are expressing is being fomented by the cable news (which I don't watch).

      My problem with the comments was that he framed them in the context of the candidates.  He should have left that out of it, that's the part that I thought had no place in a church.

      But frankly I think it's all much ado about little.  But no doubt Obama will suffer in the polls for it.

  •  I'm spinning . . . (0+ / 0-)

    Obama made the right choice to distance himself from someone saying 'God damn America'. Trying to justify the statements anyway only makes Obama supporters look worse.

    "Are we still, and if so on what grounds, Galilean and Cartesian?" Alain Badiou, Manifesto for Philosophy

    by Niky Ring on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:57:42 PM PDT

  •  Analysis of Iowa (0+ / 0-)

    I thought the news out of Iowa was pretty big but it has hardly received any attention (not even mentioned on the NYT website).  The huge delegate win and the final debunking of the myth that Edward's supporters would move to Hillary, while not as big as a religous scandal, are still news-worthy.

    I'm guessing that the folks in Iowa had become increasingly concerned about Hillary's sense of fairness. I'm refering to her apparent belief that the votes in Mi and Fl are fair and s/b counted.

    Then she says that caucuses unfair.  Perhaps true,  but entirely irrelevant to the race at hand.  The time to debate the relative fairness of primaries and caucuses is before or after the contest, not during!  (by the way,  the are many flavors of caucuses and primaries, and 2-step combinations).

    People are concerned about Clinton's ability to bend reality to support her actions.  We've just spent 8 years under a president with the exact same flaw.

  •  Thank You for your Dead On Essay!!! (0+ / 0-)

    I agree with every word you said; it was powerful, elequent, and I hope gets picked up by the main stream media!

    Donise

  •  So bin Laden had just cause? (0+ / 0-)

    Do I have that right?

    Osama bin Laden is some kind of wasp who simply responds predictably as expected to provocation?  Like when al Qaeda blew up that hotel in Jordan, and killed all of those people at that wedding?

    Policy can be stupid and counter-productive--nobody's arguing that point except Republicans maybe.

    The situation in the world regarding terrorism is far, far more complex than either the "evil-doers" or "chickens coming home to roost" can express, and both are sorry excuses for ignorance parading as outrage.

    Such insultingly willful ignorance is inexcusable coming from our side.

    •  No, it's more a (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cdembrey

      "you reap what you sow" in terms of our government concept...than the victims were deserving of what happened concept. What is so damned hard to understand?

      I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

      by valadon on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:53:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am enlightened (0+ / 0-)

    by the writer of this diary. I had become comfortable in my belief I understood what it was to be Christian. I was mistaken. I now realize there is much more for me to learn. Thank you for the insight.

  •  Reminded Me of White Preacher Anti-Gay Rants (0+ / 0-)

    I don't object that much to the substance of Jeremiah Wright's preaching on race.  But the whole performance struck me as the black version of white preachers denouncing homosexuality.  I thought it was repulsive.  

  •  I most definitely agree with your diary. (0+ / 0-)

    The conscience of the people must be stirred in order to enact change in our society.  As I have written elsewhere, I think that the MSM let prejudice and fear run rampant when running this story.  And when that happens, people often overlook their common sense and respect for others. Instead, they build that wall to keep from understanding where others come from.

    I just wish sometimes that when these stories occur that people just take a deep breath and critically analyze what is going on first.

    Take care and thank you for your diary,

    --politicalceci

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

    by politicalceci on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:31:44 PM PDT

  •  Damn You Rich! (0+ / 0-)
    Amen Devilstower. You are absolutely right. Thank you for having the courage to speak truth to power. First, I want to point out that Sen. Obama is the product of a biracial marriage. Anyone who believes that he is racist against Whites is crazy. I mean think about. Barack was raised by his mother - a white woman, whom he loved dearly.  It would simply be laughable to suggest that Obama hates White people.
    I would also add that my hope is that after the dust settles; Dr. Wright's comments will lead to the beginning of a nationwide discourse on the effect of racism, elitism and suprematism on America's domestic and foreign policies.
    Indeed, America's support of apartheid in South Africa was instrumental in keeping that oppressive, dehumanizing system in place for nearly 50 years. It is true that the forces of racism influenced the US government's denial of asylum to Haitian refugees fleeing the terror unleashed against supporters of deposed President Jean-Bertrand Aristide while at the same time it encouraged immigration of Caucasians from European countries.
    Moreover, it is also a fact that racism and suprematism continues to influence America's support of the exclusionary, racist ideology of Zionism, a political offshoot of Judaism which began in the 1890's, and has continued to manifest itself in the ethnic cleansing, dispossession, persecution and slow genocide of the indigenous Palestinian people to secure a Jewish supremacist state, and it is America's massive funding of Israel that contributes to the ongoing crisis in the Middle East.  
    There is a very real and horrific history of murder, terrorism, injustice and evil in our country. And the residue of that history still keeps us divided today.  Social theologians like Gandhi, Dr. King and Dr. Wright were not called to placate and pacify the status-quo. They were called to prod, poke, urge and provoke their hearers to change - change that will benefit all citizens - change that will bring an end to social, political and economic injustices.
    Healing from the wounds of racial injustice, sociopolitical and economic disenfranchisement can only occur after they are acknowledged and work is begun to eradicate the underlying causes for their existence.  Right now, we are faced with a choice. We must make a choice between maintaining the status -quo and working to bring about real change in our country. I hope that we will choose the latter. Thank you again Devilstower for saying what needed to be said.
  •  No Republican said a thing (0+ / 0-)

    when Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell blamed 9-11 on gays and abortion.

  •  i agree, but... (0+ / 0-)

    even though I embrace all of your sentiment enthusiastically... please remember to practice the words at the end of your diary...

    ...as that radical I quoted above said "those who take up the sword, will die by the sword."

    Let's fight the power not by the sword (i.e. by eliciting a defensive response) but through love for the ones we disagree with.  It's hard, but it can be done, yes we can!

    Never separate the life you live from the words you speak.

    by jrdigre on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:40:24 AM PDT

  •  All I care about is that it's political poison. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Larry Bailey

    Wright can worry about his own soul, that's his problem. At this very moment, Republican operatives are going through everything this guy has said for the last twenty years.  That's our problem right now.

    In the general election, a preacher who says "goddamn America" whatever the hell he means by that, is worth about 12 Geraldine Ferraros to the GOP.

    •  Don't think anyone can argue with you... (0+ / 0-)

      ...on that point.  Not only are the GOP going through everything Wright ever said, but they're checking the "smoking videos" just to see if either Obama was sitting in on anything offensive.  What are the chances (if they were so-called regular churchgoers) that both Obamas missed every single one of his offensive tirades?

  •  Interesting as to the time of these words. (0+ / 0-)

    First it was what he said. Now it's how he said it.

    I'm blunt in what I have to say.

    For example- I don't say to a repub that oh that is just a mistruth on your part. No I say your a lying s.o.b republican.

    Remember the 2004 debates- not being truthful- Heck no bush is a lying s.o.b. plain and simple.

  •  Jeremiah, his Jeremiad and his amanuensis Baruch (0+ / 0-)

    I am no Biblical scholar, but who could miss the connection between the politically unpopular lamentations of the prophet Jeremiah -- who not only predicted the second Babylonian exile, but in his Jeremiad, put the responsibility for God's wrath square on the shoulders of Judah and Israel, whom he called "harlots" (and worse!)-- and the politically unpopular Jeremiad of our own modern-day Jeremiah -- Jeremiah Wright?

    While Jeremiah predicted the second Babylonian exile, his amanuensis -- student and scribe -- Baruch was actually taken into captivity.  Now, according to rabbinical tradition, Baruch was Ethiopian and a blood relative of Jeremiah.  That would make them both black guys!  Yeah!  

    Arab and early Christian legend has it that, while in exile in Persia, Baruch studied under Zoroaster, and in that time, synthesized a message of -- get this -- HOPE.  Struth!  Having been taken with his people into slavery in a distant land, even.  

    Yet, so uplifting and inspiring is Baruch's message --prophecy, according to Catholic tradition -- it is preserved in the Holy Week liturgy.  

    Now a crackpot dominionist could probably make a literalist eschatological interpretation of this, particularly when taken in conjunction with the Apocolypse of Baruch, but we're not crackpot dominionists so we just don't have to go there.  

    It's less of a stretch to speculate on how these stories from the Bible might have influenced the thinking of a modern-day Jeremiah, and a modern-day Barack:  Jeremiah  would have scriptural precedent for his Jeremiad, and his amanuensis would transform this suffering into a message of hope and salvation.  

  •  Devilstower your thread was highjacked (0+ / 0-)

    from the start, so I'm not wading my way through the comments - but (from a non-christian who spent many years thinking she was one, mucho study and all that jazz) - AMEN.

  •  Much Ado about Nothing (0+ / 0-)

    Great post, and an interesting discussion.  I've heard the clips several times on several different discussion podcasts with varying amounts of context before and after, but I kept waiting for the outrageously indefensible parts that Barack Obama was supposed to denounce and reject :-)  I heard an engaging orator making some fair points and employing some over the top rhetoric to keep his audience's attention, but I didn't take it for anything more than I suspect it was intended as:  Dramatic rhetorical flourishes to help make a point.  Sure, for those accustomed to taking every word out of the pulpit as *God's literal truth*, all of this must be very confusing, but the God business is more closely related to show business than many people acknowledge and the Rev. Wright knows how to put on a thought-provoking show.  Two thumbs up.

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