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Al Giordano:

All this attention to Obama’s Christian church and faith is obliterating the false rumors that, prior to this controversy, led 13 percent of the electorate to think he is a Muslim.

I'll let this play out before I render judgment on this issue, but it really puts Obama's smear merchants in a bind -- do they push false rumors that he's a secret Muslim bent on delivering America to Al Qaida, or is he a member of an intolerant and radical black Christian church?

While I know the crazies on the Right have a remarkable power to ignore the laws of reality, science, and logic in pursuit of their wrongheaded ideology, trying to float both these theories at once might be a stretch, even for them.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:59 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  But I hope they continue! (16+ / 0-)

    Because the pushing of both of these has the net effect of cancelling each other out!

    •  Indeed! (10+ / 0-)
      And the more confused they sound, the better off we are!

      We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

      by anastasia p on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:01:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think this is it... (9+ / 0-)

        The more moderate or not-as-crazy people see the far right that has control of Republicans as truly crazy and out of touch, the better for Dems to get elected.

        •  The Obama church math explained.. (11+ / 0-)

          20 years of Sundays at Wright's church where Obama attended when he was in town. That’s just less than 1000 Sundays if Obama went to every one of them.

          Let’s say Wright gave between 5 to 30 highly controversial sermons over 20 years. And let’s say Obama was at a few of them.

          How does being exposed to let say 10 highly controversial sermons spread over 20 YEARS influence someone who handles negativity as well as Obama does?  It doesn't. If anything it motivates him to get his community on the same page as the rest of America. You don't fix your community by ignoring your community.

          There are some very simple people out there who cannot understand how you could hear a preacher and not believe every word that person says. Those are the people who still believe in Bush. People who fail to engage in any critical analysis in most parts of their life, will always be taken advantage of, and will always fail to see the big picture.

          I ask everyone to share this 1000/10 math.

          Thank you.

          •  Another Flaw (0+ / 0-)

            Obama doesn't exist in a vacuum between life and Sunday. Does he talk to other church members in the community or does he just show up for the photo op and leave. Are we to believe that he never had a conversation with anybody else in the church about pastor Wright? And from Obama's statements back in early 2007 it's clear he knows that Pastor Wright can be a divisive figure.

            We gave you a chance, you betrayed us.-Cindy Sheehan

            by Zero Carb Rob on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 11:57:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Stick to what Obama actually said (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Geotpf

              Does he talk to other church members in the community or does he just show up for the photo op and leave. Are we to believe that he never had a conversation with anybody else in the church about pastor Wright?

              Well it seems likely that he has had conversations like that.  And clearly he never claimed he had not.  He declared in his address yesterday that while he had not been in church for the statements now being played on TV, he knew well that the Rev. could be a strident critic of American government policy who frequently said "controversial things" and also things that Obama strongly disagreed with. Some have summarized his statement as a admission that he had been in church when the Rev. said things "like" or "similar to" the ones on  TV, but that is a distortion.

              The way the right is playing this is to try to twist what Obama has said in ways that would make it possible to claim that he has been less than frank.  But since every one of these gambits that I have heard seem to depend upon somehow distorting what Obama actually said I don't think they will get far.

               

      •  Self-contradictory positions (16+ / 0-)

        Never really stopped them before.  Put yourself in their head:  "Well, Obama's a crazy terrorist-loving Muslim.  Oh, he's Christian? Well even if he were a Christian, he's one of those America-hating crazy black Christians."  For someone looking for an excuse to not like Obama, these ideas are like multiple layers of a psychological defense mechanism.  Logical consistency is a non-issue.

        •  Self-contradictory? Nonsense! (31+ / 0-)

          Clearly Obama is part of a sleeper cell, a Muslim masquerading as a Christian who is attending an America-hating Christian church because that's the only kind of church that a true America-hating Muslim could stand to try to fit in.

          See, it was easy!

          You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

          by A Mad Mad World on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:10:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Excellent Work (10+ / 0-)

            The scary part is that you'll probably get a Chain email saying essentially that.

            Remember that many don't even understand the differences between Muslims and Black Christains. They're just all scary brown people who hate America now.

          •  Remember, Trinity UCC belongs to the larger (6+ / 0-)

            United Church of Christ, one of the most established mainline Protestant denomination in this country.

            The UCC is the successor denomination to the Congregational  Church, the Protestant denomination of the early pilgrims, who came to New England in the Mayflower.

            Many of the finest colleges and universities in the US were founded by the Congregationalists, eg Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Williams, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Amherst, Carleton, Grinnell, Oberlin, Beloit, and Pomona.

            "The blackbird whirled in the autumn winds. It was a small part of the pantomime." Wallace Stevens

            by mobiusein on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:45:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  well they should get their lazy white asses (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mkfarkus

              up and begin defending their church from all the right wing nuts that say their church is anti-american and they should all be arrested!!!

              O'Reilly thinks they are satan is disguise!!

              don't link to MSM; support your alternative grassroots media by linking to them

              by john from vermont on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:33:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  There was a journalist on Morning Joe (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hazey, Fred in Vermont

                Joe is busy saying "fine speech" but unelectable because he threw his grandmother under the bus, oh excuse me, his white grandmother, and listen to hate filled venom every Sunday and exposed his children to it. Ask Pat Buchanan, he was agreeing.
                So here is a journalist on who says he's goes to the church sometimes and that there are two other Chicago reporters who are members of the church and have gone a long time.

                Excellent. Perfect opening to find out more about the church so of course Joe changes the subject, asks something else.

                When he's gone again Joe and Pat rhapsodizes about the horror of Obama listening to venom for 20 years and no white person will vote for him and they don't want to be made to feel guilty for slavery.

                I heard that the new pastor (Rev Moss?) was going to make the round of morning shows on Monday or Tuesday but canceled. That was from low Joe too as he was saying thank goodness for Obama's sake. They were mocking his sermon that it was a good week for the church understanding crucifixtion after this what the media had done to them. They used it as another crazy line.

                The media should have gotten off their lazy fat asses and had some other side to present when they played the clips over and over...someone who knew the church. I was furious with them.

                Over the weekend was the news that Clinton was taking credit for Schip that she shouldn't have, Hatch and evidently silently seething other past and present members of Congress and staff were complaining they'd had to fight the Clintons to get it passed so it was worse then just not helping. That sounds bad. But every time I heard or read it they carried a disclaimer that someone who worked in white house then said she actually did help.
                If she was asked about it she could use that person to support her claim. Had they not included that person she would just look like a fool or liar.

                I just bring that up as comparison since it was around the same time but oh what a difference.
                They show the clips over and over with no other voice and then Obama goes around answering questions. He sounded to many like a liar, he couldn't say "as other dude says Pastor Wright...."

                They didn't want another side because they could sit on their fat white asses and fry his skinny black one.

                I thought the unfairness would be so obvious there would be great outcry. I may be all grown up but am I ever naive.

            •  Just out of curiousity..... (0+ / 0-)

              Has there been any comment, official or otherwise from the UCC hierarchy (whoever and wherever they may be) about the Wright/Obama "flap"? ISTM that a major Protestant denomination would have at least something to say about the pastor of one their biggest churches getting so slammed in the media (and not just the wingnut-o-sphere).

              To judge by some of the less-informed (or just right-wing, the terms are usually congruent) commentary out there; Rev. Jeremiah Wright has been painted as the stereotypical "angry black preacher"; and his "afrocentic" church as some sort of ghetto storefront gospel-shop.

              Surely the UCC ought to be sensitive to having their good name dragged around in the muck (while not having to approve of every sermon of Wright's)

              •  Rev John Thomas, President of UCC spoke (5+ / 0-)

                forcefully on the Jeremiah Wright flap. Here is a link to that statement on UCC's website:

                http://www.ucc.org/...

                Unfortunately, it hasn't got much coverage in the mainstream press.

                On a related matter, the UCC has recently been contacted by the IRS inquiring about their non-profit tax status since they had invited Barack Obama (a UCC church member) to speak at their General Synod meeting in Hartford, CT, last summer. Luckily for the UCC as a denomination, the very best tax lawfirms in the country have agreed to represent them pro bono, recognizing the blatant political nature of this harassment

                Incidentally, UCC members make up some of the stalwartest pillars of our society in many parts of this country - it is just not a well known fact. Trinity UCC in Chicago happens to be one of few predominently black congregations (with over 6000 members) within the denomination, which is overwhelming white.

                Historical Fact: During the early colonial period, no town in the State of Connecticut could be incorporated without the presence and blessing of a local Congregational Church (precusor to the UCC).

                "The blackbird whirled in the autumn winds. It was a small part of the pantomime." Wallace Stevens

                by mobiusein on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:13:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Don't forget Farrakhan. (4+ / 0-)
            The Wright-Farrakhan-Quaddafi connection has already been floated out there as an important element of the wingnut "Grand Unified Theory of the Angry Black Man."

            Obama tried to put it to rest when Russert helped the smear into the mainstream, but it's still bobbing around the intertubz.  That association will be the "fact" that provides "proof" that crazy black Christian = crazy black Muslim = Barack Hussein Obama.

        •  It is easier to hate Obama because (7+ / 0-)

          he is a "terrorist-loving Muslim" or an "America-hating crazy black Christian" than to admit the real reason they hate Obama is because of the color of his skin.

          Not the church. Not the state. Women will decide their fate.

          by JaciCee on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:10:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's not even the color of his skin, I think (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kaina PDX, JaciCee, A Mad Mad World

            They would hate any person standing up and saying what he is saying. It's the power of his ideas, and what he represents.

            The sleep of reason brings forth monsters.

            by beijingbetty on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:04:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Your point is well taken. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              trivium, RedMask, beijingbetty

              But, in my heart of hearts, I am convinced that all of this crap is related to his being Black.  The Wright video loop that is played non-stop reminds "them" that he is Black and all of those unfounded crazy fears they've kept locked up in their heads are coming out.

              Not the church. Not the state. Women will decide their fate.

              by JaciCee on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:08:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Most definitely. The great thing is (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JaciCee

                he has taken the fact of his blackness, and in the most compassionate, inspiring way possible, said "deal with it".

                I think the very fears and morbid fascination mean that now when Obama speaks, some portion of them will be looking to his words, listening for his 'black agenda'. They aren't going to find any. Sooner or later, the majority of people in this country will come around. I believe that. And the more they play the video loop now, the less impact it will have in the GE.

                And there were always going to be some who were never going to vote for him anyway.

                Don't let the crazies get to ya. ;-)

                The sleep of reason brings forth monsters.

                by beijingbetty on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:22:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  But he is as white as black.. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AbyssAndApex, JaciCee, beijingbetty

                I mean as black as white. Nop what I meant was as white as black.(whatever)

                "I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters" Solomon Short

                by RedMask on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:30:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  No, it's the color of his skin (0+ / 0-)

              I suspect (but don't know for a fact, since I've never gone to an African American church) that many, maybe even most, mainly black churches have had preachers who have said things from the pulpit that were similar to Wright's sermons in question.  And, of course, a black candidate can probably never be elected for a local office without belonging to such a church.

              Basically, if Wright's comments disqualify Obama from being president, then basically every black person is disqualified from being president.

              •  the color of his skin is an opportunity (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hazey

                to speak to the truth of what he believes about people - that we are more the same than different.

                i cannot think of any white candidates in my lifetime who have made such a bold exhortation for americans to be reasonable, and set aside their prejudices. i am not black, but i am a person of color. it's an experience that hopefully sensitizes you, creates greater empathy.

                if barack obama were not black, he would not have had the journey that he has had. i am proud, and grateful.

                don't get caught in the false logic of how the media are presenting who rev wright is. he himself doesn't even 'mostly' preach that way. you can talk to people at the trinity UCC or go look up PastorDan's blog posts.

                peace.

                The sleep of reason brings forth monsters.

                by beijingbetty on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:10:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  It is not because of the color of his skin... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            James Kresnik

            ...it is partly because of the power of his ideas.  But to dig a little deeper, it is mostly because his ideas threaten in a very real way people who currently have some level of "perceived" power.  I say "perceived" because the only real power is truth.

            I believe the gift that Obama has and is presenting to us is his ability to hold truth in the palm of his hand and rotate it so that everyone can see it and claim it for themselves.  

        •  Damned if you do, damned if you don't - but wait! (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JeffW, voila

          Damning is un-american. What's a poor Freeper to do? Must make their head hurt.

          Obama '08 - Now more than ever!

          by hideinplainsight on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:14:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I have already heard this excuse from someone (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lawprofessor

          His father was a muslim, ya know.
          He's bound to have been influenced by him. It doesn't matter if he says he's a christian.
          Nevermind that he didn't see his father after he was 2 years old.

          People who don't follow up on rumors and let the whisper mill justify things they already feel, were never going to vote for Obama anyway.

          They are part of that 45% who will stay home or vote McCain.

          I think there are more thinking people in America, after the last 7 years of Bush, who 7 months from now, are going to have alot bigger issues on their minds than Obama's pastor.

          The more people get to know Obama, the more they like him.

          Today's problems are yesterday's solutions. Don Beck

          by Sherri in TX on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:40:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Kerry is Most Liberal and a Flip-flopper (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MaximusNYC, rockhound, 2ajpuu

          How could John Kerry be "consistently the most liberal" Senator and also a habitual flip-flopper?  If he was consistently liberal, he could not have flip-flopped on hardly any positions.  If he flip-flopped positions, he could not possibly be the most liberal.

          The right-wing and their media whores had no porblem shouting this propaganda for the 2004 election cycle.  Why should we think they have discovered their brains or morals in the interim?

        •  Is 'devil-worshippin atheist' self-contradictory? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AndersOSU

          Of course not. Atheists, satanists, muslims, and crazy black christians all don't wear American flag lapel pins, which is the real issue here.

        •  Those who would be influenced (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          James Kresnik

          by either the Muslim or Radical Black Church smears are essentially the same people and, in the end, wouldn't be voting for Obama anyway.  Other than educating people on an individual basis as the opportunity arises, there is little to be done about them.  It's largely out of our control and thus, there's nothing to be gained by worryinb about it.
          At least, that's how I keep from going crazy over this stuff.

    •  And making heads explode (8+ / 0-)

      Man, I'd like to see some conservative heads explode.

      •  The only problem being that they are (4+ / 0-)

        like cartoon characters and their heads grow right back.  Maybe they are all really 'toons.  That's why the laws of physics don't apply to them.

        [this space intentionally left blank]

        by FXDCI on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:03:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Talk to Indiana Rethug Congresspoop-le (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ER Doc

        They have experience with shooting gourds that look like Vince Foster, with shotguns.

        Surely they can hit a FAUX News rep, as a test of course.

        Dana Curtis Kincaid Ad Astra per Aspera! http://www.angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com The enemy is not man, the enemy is stupidity.

        by angrytoyrobot on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:07:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  the oldest Mainstream Christian denomination (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geotpf, MAORCA

        Senator Obama's church, Trinity United Church of Christ, is the largest congregation in one of the oldest Mainstream Protestant denominations in the country - tracing their roots back to the Pilgrims.

        Keep posting, even to the wingnuts, because each time they damn his church and his belief in Christ, they damn one of the major predominantly-white denominations in this country.

        If we continue to post to the MSM with non-inflamatory factual posts, it makes the wingnuts look that much more stupid IMHO.

        •  UCC (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Eman, Geotpf, MAORCA

          Also, over at UCC.org, the pastors and church members are speaking out. Last night an important pastor spoke on CNN. Many have the same theme--if you think this is inflammatory, then you don't go to church.

          I think one of the UCC  pastors referred to Wright as not being a "court prophet". In other words, he speaks truth to power.

          Those so called Christian apologists on Faux are tallying up opposition by the day.

          No tax returns, no White House documents, no records on earmarks: What is Sen. Clinton hiding?

          by lascaux on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:58:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wingnuts, OTOH (0+ / 0-)

            prefer their pastors to speak truthiness from power.

            I do like conducting hearings in an actual hearing room -- John Conyers

            by ebohlman on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:50:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Just read our friend and fellow Kossack (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Eman

            pastordan, who explained it all on Sunday and Monday. He's UCC.

            http://pastordan.dailykos.com/

            Let's get some Democracy for America

            by murphy on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:43:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, but we need one-liners (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Geotpf

              I've read PastorDan and you are absolutely correct.

              I just want our people to post the simplistic one-liners people will read in MSM comments.  People who consider themselves "good" Christians become quite more uncomfortable when they realize they are attacking a well-respected Protestant denomination.

              "Good" Catholics become quite uncomfortable when the same logic is dumped on them that they might be viewed as Pedophiles because they did not leave their family parish once a life-long child-abusing priest was exposed.

              I'm simplistic about this, but Senator Obama's message was that we all need to look inside ourselves.  The one-liners cause that in my white community.

    •  I think it has a better net than that (0+ / 0-)

      wow man Obama is just a stud. America deserves to have him as a President. Man that speech!

      Can Hillary beat McCain? Is she putting the SCOTUS at risk? And abortion rights?

      by Data Mining Telecom Fascist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:26:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The hypocrisy you people have. (0+ / 0-)

      I once looked at republicans as crazy then switched to dems and after a few years of this i have come to realize that you guys are some of the same trash as the other side. Change? If Obama would have been white and attending an all white church inwhich the preacher was a racist against blacks you guys would have had him for dinner and not left the bones. What has changed? his color? That he had continued to attend this church should give you a sign. If you accept it or give it an excuse in any form you are no different then those that wear those white robes. Do NOT WORRY give me a good speech it will help me not feel so bad that i have been taken by a snake oil salesman.

  •  Never misunderestimate (20+ / 0-)

    the stupidity of the American MSM-viewing populace...

    When you aim for the lowest common denominator, you rarely miss your mark... Remember, it's only a few dollars away from eccentric to insane...

    by wry twinger on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:01:05 AM PDT

  •  Choices, choices (8+ / 0-)

    so many smears to juggle... so little time.

  •  Kos your forgetting (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TampaCPA, Samer, Omen, ER Doc, paintitblue

    they are called "crazies" for a reason. They really don't care how much they lie as long as it gets press someone will believe it.

    " In our every deliberation,we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations" From the great law of the Iroquois confederacy.

    by flatford39 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:01:27 AM PDT

  •  Both. (9+ / 0-)

    He's a crazy Al-Qaeda Black Islamo-Christian

    But don't forget that most men without property would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich, than face the reality of being poor. (1776)

    by banjolele on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:01:32 AM PDT

  •  Oh, some of them will try... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Samer, gnat, ER Doc, jnhobbs

    facts and reality won't stop them... never has, ask Galileo, Darwin, almost anyone really...

    Our country can survive war, disease, and poverty... what it cannot do without is justice.

    by mommyof3 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:01:44 AM PDT

  •  I received an email claiming both (13+ / 0-)

    Logic mean nothing to them but it does make it easier to disprove their BS.

    Experience is nothing without good judgment.

    by sgilman on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:02:19 AM PDT

  •  The Right tried to check (7+ / 0-)

    And landed themselves a self-defeating checkmate.  Serves them right for playing gotcha politics.

  •  oh oh oh I got it.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, kiki236

    Senator Obama is a

    'stealth manchurian Muslim member of al kida sent here decades ago to infiltrate  both our religious AND our political system by pretending to be ONE OF US"

    disclaimer: absolutely no truth is represented in this post :)

    "THE SURGE IS WORKING" is the 2008 replacement for "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"

    by KnotIookin on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:02:44 AM PDT

  •  Logic? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gnat, ER Doc, FXDCI

    Wingnut Logic-- there is no such thing. Lets see what the future brings.

    Not This Time! Not This Time! Not This Time!

    by kiki236 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:03:07 AM PDT

  •  No, it's easy (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HighSticking, mcfly, Omen, ER Doc, beltane

    Barack Obama is a secret Muslim who is only pretending to be Christian. But, because he hates America so much, the only church who would take him also hates America. Is Reverend Wright also a Muslim?

    -dms

    Having trouble finding stuff on Daily Kos? This page has some handy hints and tricks.

    by dmsilev on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:03:15 AM PDT

  •  Rethugs don't care (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cyber Kat, ER Doc, James Kresnik

    which of their lies people believe.  Take your pick, just buy one of their lies and they score.  It's a great strategy if you have no soul.

    In an insane society, the sane man would appear insane

    by TampaCPA on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:03:17 AM PDT

  •  Easy to solve (7+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    varro, Samer, mcfly, JaciCee, Omen, Cyber Kat, ER Doc

    Just start painting him as a crazy Jew! Why not cover all bases.

    Wait...then crazy Hindu. Crazy Buddhist. Crazy Zoroastrian. Crazy...

    Ah hell. Just call him an atheist and be done with it.

    This will all get worse before November...whether the nominee is Hillary or Obama. We have to fight harder than ever against the lies and smears, folks.

  •  Well, that's an easy one (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, FXDCI, Greasy Grant

    He's a radical Arab Christian who gives Osama bin Laden deep-tissue back rubs.

    Every McMaverick needs his Goose.

    by DH from MD on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:03:27 AM PDT

  •  It might be a stretch (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc

    if these right-wing half wits who listen to morons like Rush and Hannity didn't lack the ability to think for themselves.  

    Instead, though, they'll just yammer on about whichever lie suits their needs and fancy at the moment, content in knowing that the ones "listening" to them won't question what's being said.

    My style is impetuous.
    My defense is impregnable.
    YOU'RE NOT ALEXANDER!

    by samfish on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:03:30 AM PDT

  •  I assume they will... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc

    just persue both strategies on a parallel track...logic need not apply for wingnuts

    Obama/Clinton or Clinton/Obama '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

    by dvogel001 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:03:53 AM PDT

  •  Conversation between righties (8+ / 0-)

    "And Obama went to church there every day for 20 years... with a message of hate being preached!"

    "Wait, isn't that what we admire in a politician?"

    "The hate wasn't for gays and non-Christians."

    "What?  How dare he!!!"

    The only place where Republicans are anywhere close to responsible is in the dictionary.

    by DemDachshund on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:04:14 AM PDT

  •  Nothing is impossible for a group that (13+ / 0-)

    thinks that

    Horton Hears a Who

    is an anti-home-school movie.

    Dana Curtis Kincaid Ad Astra per Aspera! http://www.angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com The enemy is not man, the enemy is stupidity.

    by angrytoyrobot on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:04:22 AM PDT

  •  Now I dont know why I am supposed to hate him. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc

    And neither do all wingers, but I am sure they will sort it out by Nov.

  •  Not a Stretch at All (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gnat, ER Doc

    Have you been paying attention the past 8 years? 8 years in which comedians have been regularly surpassed by the surreal idiocy of this administration and its supporters?

    Sorry, I fully expect my mother to steadfastly adhere to whichever of those two memes the smear merchants espouse, and wouldn't be shocked to find both of them spouted by her in the next month or two.

  •  They will do both probably with no shame (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc

    He is a muslim who joined a church that hurts christianity or is not really christian.

    Sorry I have to run to the Senate floor to abolish torture.

    by bten on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:04:39 AM PDT

  •  I had the same thought at his opening remarks (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RobertInWisconsin, Eman, ER Doc

    in that speech. When he started with talking about "my Christian faith" I thought good, this will actually be news to some people.

    We have to keep in mind that a huge amount of people barely read newspapers, let alone blogs. It's still a good old fashioned rumor mill out there, and just having them realize that he's a Christian is a very big step.

    The next step is showing that Republicans have far more vile preachers not only speaking to them but running for President, for pete's sake, like Pat Robertson.

  •  I wish it were only repubs, (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cyber Kat, ER Doc, dirtfarmer, beltane

    but unfortunately I've heard those same lies from Democrats too many times to believe it was a republican problem.

    Or house isn't clean on this either.

    Not by a long shot.

    "It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion." Oscar Wilde, 1891

    by MichiganGirl on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:04:43 AM PDT

  •  They'll stick with Black (10+ / 0-)

    Racism: it's the tried and tested method of generating fear.  

    •  Tru dat...black doesn't wash off (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mcfly, larrybutch, Omen, Cyber Kat, ER Doc, jnhobbs

      But Obama's speech yesterday showed the merchants of racism a thing or two. He understands what's coming, I think.

      Sweet are the uses of adversity...[Find] tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, Sermons in stones, and good in everything. -Shakespeare, As You Like It

      by earicicle on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:09:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  want to make their heads spin? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        earicicle

        Like The Exorcist movie spin? Put forth the idea to them that Black does rub off and African Americans have been passing for generations.  Two of Sally Heming's children passed the color barrier with no problem; if the objection is to real or perceived problems in the Black community, well and good; we can debate the root causes.
        However, to a neocon the only thing worse than an illegal Mexican is an African American "passing" for white. Helps smoke out the hardcore neocon from the amateurs.

        •  Actually, that was one of the best parts (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          varro

          Of the speech: Obama emphasizing the white part of his heritage, as much as the black.

          All the same, my 16 year old nephew has just started to drive. I know the first time he gets pulled over, it's not going to be for the Irish-German side of his heritage. Driving While Irish--not a big issue these days in his upscale, white suburb.

          Sweet are the uses of adversity...[Find] tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, Sermons in stones, and good in everything. -Shakespeare, As You Like It

          by earicicle on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:42:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The silver lining (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mcfly, ER Doc

    The death of the Muslim rumor is one perk of this whole situation.  I'm hoping Obama's speech will prove to be the turning point for all this, but I'm worried that it is not turning out that way.

  •  What really puts the smear merchants in a bind (6+ / 0-)

    Obama hasn't internalized racism or intolerance or hatred. It rolls off his back. Growing up in Hawaii, where the kind of polarization that is endemic to the mainland simply does not exist, creates this in you.

    This is one of the root causes of the "unflappability" everyone now sees. The merchants of smear can smear away, but the Obama train will keep on rolling. Right up to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

    Sweet are the uses of adversity...[Find] tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, Sermons in stones, and good in everything. -Shakespeare, As You Like It

    by earicicle on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:05:14 AM PDT

  •  It's funny... (7+ / 0-)

    ...that we currently have a president who has shown he will protect the UAE and Saudi Arabia at all costs, yet Obama is the Manchurian candidate.

  •  Kosophile made an important point ... (17+ / 0-)

    ...in his/her Diary last night that bears repeating repeatedly:

    Remember what Obama said?  That we should put aside the politics of division, conflict and cynicism, that we should avoid being distracted and talk about the problems we all need to solve and the goals we all want to achieve.  I listened very closely this evening and not one reporter or commentator even mentioned this part of Obama's speech*, which I would argue was the main point of the entire speech. Instead, it was all distraction, all calculation.

    The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose. - Frederick Douglass

    by Meteor Blades on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:06:07 AM PDT

    •  It's interesting that the TV (5+ / 0-)

      news didn't mention the main points, but it was nearly universally noted and praised in newspapers across the country.

      "Stupidity is the great equalizer!" - NonnyO

      by Pandoras Box on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:07:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And, historically, this resonates. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cyber Kat, ER Doc, Pandoras Box

      Witness:

      For while this year it may be a Catholic against whom the finger of suspicion is pointed, in other years it has been -- and may someday be again -- a Jew, or a Quaker, or a Unitarian, or a Baptist. It was Virginia's harassment of Baptist preachers, for example, that led to Jefferson's statute of religious freedom. Today, I may be the victim, but tomorrow it may be you -- until the whole fabric of our harmonious society is ripped apart at a time of great national peril.

      Finally, I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end, where all men and all churches are treated as equals, where every man has the same right to attend or not to attend the church of his choice, where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind, and where Catholics, Protestants, and Jews, at both the lay and the pastoral levels, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their works in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.

      That is the kind of America in which I believe. And it represents the kind of Presidency in which I believe, a great office that must be neither humbled by making it the instrument of any religious group nor tarnished by arbitrarily withholding it -- its occupancy from the members of any one religious group. I believe in a President whose views on religion are his own private affair, neither imposed upon him by the nation, nor imposed by the nation upon him¹ as a condition to holding that office.

      I would not look with favor upon a President working to subvert the first amendment's guarantees of religious liberty; nor would our system of checks and balances permit him to do so. And neither do I look with favor upon those who would work to subvert Article VI of the Constitution by requiring a religious test, even by indirection. For if they disagree with that safeguard, they should be openly working to repeal it.

      I want a Chief Executive whose public acts are responsible to all and obligated to none, who can attend any ceremony, service, or dinner his office may appropriately require of him to fulfill; and whose fulfillment of his Presidential office is not limited or conditioned by any religious oath, ritual, or obligation.

      "Success is a level of violence where the people feel comfortable about living their daily lives." --George W Bush, May 2, 2007

      by mspicata on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:11:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Somehow or another, they will (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc

    have it both ways.  Something like his Christian church is really a Muslim mosque training Al Qaida operatives.  There are no lengths or depths to which the wild and crazy right-wing nut jobs will not go.

    The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all - JFK- 5/18/63-Vanderbilt Univ.

    by oibme on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:06:32 AM PDT

  •  Semi-random question: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SLKRR, ER Doc, llamaRCA

    Has anyone asked Jeremiah Wright what he thought of the speech?

  •  Seems the "hateful church" meme is still (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, beltane

    being circulated. Sounds like the Repubs need to see a cruxifiction before they believe this is sincere.

    "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

    by Skid on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:07:17 AM PDT

  •  I've sat in the pew and listened to sermons (9+ / 0-)

    from ministers that contained statements I simply did not agree with.

    I've sat in the classroom and listened to lectures that contained ideas or statements I simply did not agree with.

    I've sat in an audience and watched a film I didn't like, listened to a speech by someone I did not agree with, or heard a band that I thought sucked.

    I've sat at the dinner table with relatives and good friends and heard them say things I didn't agree with.

    Rarely has it occurred to me to jump up and loudly denounce in any of these situations, and those who are demanding that of Obama frankly look like fools.

    Ultimately, I think the vast majority of ordinary Americans understand this concept.  If they are sheep who've had the wool pulled over their eyes by the right-wing hate machine, they would never vote for Obama, Hillary - or even McCain.

    So never mind them.

    A majority of Americans understand the concept of sitting in a church pew or similar venue and hearing something you don't agree with.

    It's called freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of association.

  •  Obama: 30 year resident of Muslim sleeper cell (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc

    The wingnuts CAN have it both ways.

    The plural of anecdote is not data.

    by bobinson on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:07:51 AM PDT

  •  It's simple he's a Christlim (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JaciCee, ER Doc

    He's the evil hybrid of radical black christianity combined with teh evil of Madrassa Radical Islamists and therefore is the anti-christ.

    [ / snark ]

    Sarcasm: It beats killing people...

    by Dreggas on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:08:01 AM PDT

  •  Man, Crazy Right's dumber than a bag of hammers (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, JeffW

    Just dumber than shit.

    Si Se Puede Cambiar - Andres Useche

    by WSComn on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:08:05 AM PDT

  •  And since there is no shortage of fiery preachers (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, bushondrugs

    it will be really hard to justify the whole guilt-by-association meme (which is, itself, antithetical to Christian beliefs).

    There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your week. By the way, is there anyone here who knows how to run a government?

    by iconoclastic cat on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:08:40 AM PDT

  •  It's not inconsistant at all... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, mayim

    That crazy black preacher hates America.
    Muslims hate America.
    Therefore that crazy black preacher is the same as a Muslim.
    It's the transitive property of wingnuttiness...

    -5.12, -5.23

    We are men of action; lies do not become us.

    by ER Doc on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:08:41 AM PDT

  •  i've just gotten around (0+ / 0-)

    to watching obama's speech and i can't believe he just said "a view that sees the conflicts in the middle east as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical islam."

    this is tremendously disappointing coming from him.  bin laden himself has pointed to our presence in saudi arabia and support of israel as reasons we are targeted.

    wtf?

    "Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built upon the ruins of the bowers of paradise." Thomas Paine, Common Sense

    by Cedwyn on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:08:47 AM PDT

    •  Israel is the mote in others' eyes... (0+ / 0-)

      ...that redirects Muslim anger from their own repressive governments.

      It is a rally against an outside evil that distracts people from their own misery perpetrated by autocrats like Mubarek, the Saud dynasty, Musharraf, et al.

      9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

      by varro on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:33:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Obviously he is a secret Muslim (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, condorcet

    using the cover of a radical black Christian church.

    Right?

  •  Ye of Such Little Faith (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, ER Doc, beltane

    Markos.

    Never doubt the power of the hatemongers on the right spewing totally contradictory remarks in the same sentence!

    "That Muslim Barack Obama, in league with Louis Farrakhan - the leader of the radical Nation of Islam and Farrakhan's friend, Dr. Jeremiah Wright, an America hater who said we deserved 9/11 and the pastor of Obama church are secretly planning to hoodwink Americans with Obama's lying race speech and gain the White House and then pull out of the Middle East and look the other way while Al Qaeda and Iran take over"

    (I'm almost afraid my quote will be circulated on the Internet as fact, when it's meant as cynical snark)

  •  We have a huge communication problem (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    goodlittlesquid, ER Doc, bushondrugs

    in this country.  Americans don't talk to each other as much as they should.  And when they talk they don't always listen to what is being said.  It is much easier to turn on the teevee and let the pundits fill their heads with spin.  Critical thought takes a lot of effort!

    Add in unadulturated fear of anything different and the righties go stark raving crazy.

    Not the church. Not the state. Women will decide their fate.

    by JaciCee on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:09:24 AM PDT

  •  The Disconnect is astonishing (4+ / 0-)

    I was chatting with a friend of mine and his wife this weekend.  He's a well-published Classical scholar at a major Midwestern research university, and the Wright brouhaha was at full tide, and yet they both thought that Obama was a Muslim, until I straightened them out on it, and pointed out the logical contradictions between a fuss over what his Christian minister is saying, and believing he's a Muslim.  They're both politically liberal, too, though not US citizens.

    It's a monumental task we face, when we have to make these apparently obvious A-B connections even for well-educated people.

  •  Obama must choose! (4+ / 0-)

    Crazy christian or crazy muslim?  We're at war!  Pick a crazy!

    She voted for the war.

    by Inland on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:10:25 AM PDT

  •  He is Muslim and Amerika hating Christian (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, ER Doc

    Don't people get it?

    The Rethug smear people are not consistent.  

    Throw any and all crap up at him and hope some sticks.

    I think it is called the "Kitchen sink" strategy.

    Oh, no, sorry, that's the Clinton campaign strategy, that's not the right wing smear machine, it's another smear machine.

    Jesus Mohammed it's hard to keep all these smears separate.

    "We will now proceed to construct the socialist order."

    by 7November on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:10:50 AM PDT

  •  A photo of Obama shaking hands with Buddhists (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, JML9999, beltane, earicicle

    would really help here.  It needs that 3rd element to make a trifecta.

  •  I don't know... in 04 they managed (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SLKRR, boofdah, ER Doc, paintitblue

    to paint Kerry as a consistantly hardcore "out of the main stream" Liberal, more liberal than KENNEDY gasp and at the same time a political oportunist who blows in the wind and takes whatever position the polls say.

    first of all, they called him consistant and a flip flopper at the same time.

    Then, you have Bush basically saying that, according to polls, the political "winds" are constantly blowing hard left... So Kerry i guess always flops to the left and takes three sides to one issue... even though all three of those sides are the far left?

    I don't know how but somehow poeple really did buy that slop.

  •  When media "pundits" mis-speak like this: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    catfood, dss, ER Doc

    Heard from Nancy Giles, "Social Commentator" on MSNBS's Morning Joe show yesterday morning:

    The fact that he's a Muslim...

    Which wasn't challenged by anyone!

    It's probably not what she meant to convey, but people often assume that the first half of a sentence like that is true.

    Impeachment is a duty, not an option that can be taken off the table.

    by bushondrugs on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:11:55 AM PDT

  •  Don't forget also: Crazy atheist! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    varro, boofdah, ER Doc, beltane

    Because according to that tripe of an email, Sen. Obama's mom was one. Which combines with the "fact" that his dad was a staunch Muslim, makes perfect sense. Religious fundamentalists fall in love with atheists all the time.

    I'm waiting for them to call him a crazy Shoalin Monk next. Wu-Tang!!

    Politics is the deliberation of one's moral enterprise.

    by Omen on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:12:13 AM PDT

    •  Well, THAT part is true. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      boofdah, beltane

      As Obama described in The Audacity of Hope, Ann Dunham really didn't believe in God.

      As an out-and-proud atheist myself, I'm heartened that we're going to elect our first President that was brought up by an open nonbeliever.

    •  My parents were Catholic when they married... (0+ / 0-)

      ...but 20 years later, my dad was an anti-theist.  Favorite quote: "If the Catholic Church sold all their artwork, there wouldn't be a hungry person in the world."  

      My mom lurched into those weird Charismatic sects in the late 70s and early 80s, however...

      9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

      by varro on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:37:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  He's a radical Black madrassa-educated... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, ER Doc, paintitblue

    Islamo-Christian terrorist who is intent on destroying the country when he gains office...oh and he doesn't wear a flag lapel and ONE TIME he didn't put his hand on his heart when saying Pledge of Allegiance...and OH....his wife is radical sympathizer because she said she wasn't proud to be an American!

    OF COURSE!

  •  Let me make this perfectly clear (4+ / 0-)

    I don't care what religion a person is.
    I don't care what they're sexual persuasion is.
    I don't care what they do or don't do behind closed doors.

    I want to know what they believe should happen to this country, how they intend to accomplish it and at what cost will it come to ALL Americans.

    So much time and so little to do...wait, stop, reverse that.---Willy Wonka

    by bluestateonian on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:13:11 AM PDT

  •  The truth (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SLKRR

    The may sing Christian songs but they are really Muslims and when the cameras go away they all start hollering about Allah. Trust me on this.

  •  Rush Limbaugh (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SLKRR, boofdah, beltane, bushondrugs

    I listened to Rush's show yesterday and he had one of those stupid parody songs (this one was of Joy to the World), and in this parody about his Christian minister there was a insinuation that he was really a Muslim.  So, yeah, they'll believe both at once.

  •  Muslim on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    earicicle, Freedom Fry

    Crazy Christian the rest of the week.

  •  They'll Probably Push Both. . . (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dss, Omen, goodlittlesquid, JeffW, paintitblue

    Remember their "Al Gore" logic:

    1. There is no global warming; and
    1. Al Gore is a hypocrite for riding in airplanes and having a big electric bill.

    I always wanted to ask these people "If there's indeed no global warming, then how can he be a hypocrite? Who cares how many jets he flies on? Who cares how much power he uses at his family home? If global warming doesn't exist as you claim, then how can Gore be harming the environment?"

    They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works every time. -- Brian Fantana

    by IndyScott on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:13:52 AM PDT

    •  Well (0+ / 0-)

      The point is (and this is off the point) it's what Gore believes that matters in judging hypocrisy.

      Let's put it this way.  Say I think using curse words is OK. You say that it's wrong and no one should use them, chastising others for using them.  Then later I hear you using foul language and cussing someone out. Despite what my beliefs are, you'd be a hypocrite.

      Sorry for swerving; I teach logic and talk about these things all day. :)  

      And yes, I believe in global warming, and yes, I believe Gore should live as he encourages others to.

  •  Muslin heritage or background? (0+ / 0-)

    Obama is obviously not a Muslim or a follower of Islam.  But with a Muslim grandfather, a Muslim father, a Muslim Step-father, and a Muslim name, doesn't this constitute a Muslim heritage or background?  And if so, does he run from this background?

  •  He's a Jew! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, James Kresnik, Freedom Fry

    Obviously a Mossad agent trying to infiltrate the Muslim and Christian movements.

  •  I honestly don't think... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, beltane, James Kresnik, bushondrugs

    that 13% of the population thinks Barack is a Muslim.  I think a lot of people, a lot of conservatives, don't want to like him and they need an excuse.  Therefore they say that he's a Muslim, while knowing good and well that he isn't.  As shameful as I know this sounds, nobody believes that a Muslim could run for national office here in the United States and even do remotely well.  I also think there is a large group of people who just say this to try to perpetuate the Muslim myth to other people.  It wouldn't matter if Jesus Christ himself came down from heaven and endorsed Barack from the steps of the Sistine Chapel, they would still try to spread the Muslim myth.  I'm looking forward to the general election when this becomes an issues race.  McCain is a politcal midget next to Barack.  

    "Good, better, best"

    by nicweb on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:14:39 AM PDT

    •  In Bible Belt rural areas..... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      beltane, Robobagpiper, nicweb

      more like 70% believe he is a Muslim, as people are told that by their pastors. The video of the black congressan being sworn in on the Koran has been dubbed to make it appear to be Obama. This has been distributed among rural clergy. You better believe they believe it.

      •  Maybe I'm just naive but... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Robobagpiper

        I refuse to believe that people are as stupid as they seem to be.  You make a valid point though.  Duly noted.  Thanks.

        "Good, better, best"

        by nicweb on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:29:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No people are not stupid (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Robobagpiper

          We all make intelligent decisions based on the information available to us. If you see a video of "Obama" being sworn in on the Koran and your minister says it is true, and Obama has not come within a hundred miles of your town because he cleaves to big city rallies, what is the logical conclusion?

          The campaign has so far failed to get the candidate to the places he needs to go to dispel the slanders.

        •  Smart people can be lied to (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          James Kresnik, Ohiobama

          And if those lies resonate with the worldview they were raised with, resonate emotionally, and repeated endlessly, smart people will believe lies.

          •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            James Kresnik

            It has nothing to do with cognitive ability. Given a particular worldview, cognitively smarter people will simply come up with more elaborate rationalizations to support it than cognitively duller people.

            I do like conducting hearings in an actual hearing room -- John Conyers

            by ebohlman on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:11:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  And those people haven't denounced (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        James Kresnik

        their pastors? How dare they! If any of these nitwits runs for office I demand that they publicly denounce their pastors.

        If you plant ice, you're gonna harvest wind- J.Garcia/R.Hunter

        by beltane on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:32:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Never underestimate (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mayim, bushondrugs

    the power inherent in wingnuts to be able to stretch reality like Laffy-Taffy.

    If it can be thought of, it can be done, no matter the fever dream delusion that inspired it.  And at least 30% of the American population will believe it.

  •  Obama mojo will destroy the wingnut meme-bots (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, Quicksilver2723, earicicle
  •  He will become a super-liberal hero (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, bushondrugs

    By day, he is a dashing militant Christian black lawyer looking to divide Americans and destroy the American Dream.  At night, he will transform into an Islamic radical imam bent on one mission only: to divide Americans and destroy the American Dream.

    See, not hard at all to devise a credible story that wingers will believe.

    There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who cannot.

    by Mote Dai on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:15:38 AM PDT

  •  So Funny.. (0+ / 0-)

    You know that's on there mind ... Radical Muslim or radical Christian , radical Christian or radical Muslim

    You can just see their smear gears turning.

    Watch they will some how try to link both of them together somehow. ;)

  •  Couldn't find a YouTube clip, but... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cowalker, JeffW

    Shimmer
    Saturday Night Live - Season 1, Episode 9
    Aired: January 10, 1976

    Transcript from: http://snltranscripts.jt.org/...

    Wife.....Gilda Radner
    Husband.....Dan Aykroyd
    Spokesman.....Chevy Chase

    [ open on suburban kitchen, Wife and Husband arguing ]

    Wife: New Shimmer is a floor wax!
    Husband: No, new Shimmer is a dessert topping!
    Wife: It's a floor wax!
    Husband: It's a dessert topping!
    Wife: It's a floor wax, I'm telling you!
    Husband: It's a dessert topping, you cow!

    Spokesman: [ enters quickly ] Hey, hey, hey, calm down, you two. New Shimmer is both a floor wax AND a dessert topping! Here, I'll spray some on your mop.. [ sprays Shimmer onto mop ] ..and some on your butterscotch pudding. [ sprays Shimmer onto pudding ]

    [ Husband eats while Wife mops ]

    Husband: Mmmmm, tastes terrific!

    Wife: And just look at that shine! But will it last?

    Spokesman: Hey, outlasts every other leading floor wax, 2 to 1. It's durable, and it's scuff-resistant.

    Husband: And it's delicious!

    Spokesman: Sure is! Perks up anything from an ice cream sundae to a pumpkin pie!

    Wife: Made from an exclusive non-yellowing formula.

    Husband: I haven't even touched my pudding and I'm ready for more!

    Wife: But what about black heel marks?

    Spokesman: Dirt, grime, even black heel marks, wipe clean with a damp mop.

    [ Husband accidentally sprays Shimmer onto the floor ]

    Husband: Oh, sorry, honey, I'll clean that up!

    Wife: Oh, no problem, sweetheart, not with new Shimmer!

    [ Spokesman laughs continuously as he approaches the camera ]

    Spokesman: New Shimmer, for the greatest shine you ever tasted!

    [ fade ]

  •  Well, obviously... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bushondrugs

    ...Obama's church is crypto-Muslim.

    It's the perfect solution.

    I should've been a lawyer.

    (-2.75, -4.92) | Hillary has confetti, Barack has delegates

    by Addison on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:16:37 AM PDT

  •  Sadly probably both - and their minions will (0+ / 0-)

    buy it

  •  Obama's Black Value Church (0+ / 0-)

    Obama belongs to a church which has adopted the black value system which is basically a repudiation of white middle class values.  If a white candidate repudiated black cultural values could that person be elected President?

  •  Hillary's failure in judgment! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    beltane, paintitblue

    FORT WORTH, TEXAS -- Hillary Clinton told reporters that both she and the presumtive Republican nominee John McCain offer the experience to be ready to tackle any crisis facing the country under their watch.

  •  But who are they? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bushondrugs

    The crazies may be saying such things, but crazies say all kinds of things.

    What's being said by somebody who actually gets listened to by more than a sliver of the populace?

    Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

    by dinotrac on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:19:29 AM PDT

  •  Can't you see? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    condorcet

    It's all perfectly logical.  He's a radical Muslim agent undercover recruiting in  radical Christian church.

    And did I mention he is from Manchuria?

  •  Doesn't matter (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SadTexan

    As Obama comes down from the clouds of 'hope'   and starts engaging real world issues,  the electorate  will  get a feel for the shallowness of his experience  which is the ultimate  issue in trying times.   The Rev. Wright episode also will not be forgotten in the general as well as the poor judgement that allowed him to get caught in that snare in the first place.   Today he is down in polls, both against Clinton and  McCain.

  •  Convince them that Muslims are Christian? (0+ / 0-)

    That seems the easiest way to "resolve" this in the heads of the brainless: convince them that Muslims are really a type of Christian.  ;-)

    The Muslims wouldn't entirely disagree.  ;-)  It might change the dialogue.

    -5.63, -8.10 | Impeach, Convict, Remove & Bar from Office, Arrest, Indict, Convict, Imprison!

    by neroden on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:22:47 AM PDT

  •  Oh Markos, you poor naive soul! (0+ / 0-)

    The new line is that the church itself is Muslim.

    -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

    by Rich in PA on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:22:57 AM PDT

    •  actually, you're not far off (0+ / 0-)

      Kos misses the point.  The GOP will tag Obama as being foreign, different, strange.  The details of it--black nationalist Christian or Muslim--don't matter as much.  Hell, they'll probably use both, and what's worse?  It might work.

  •  What I want to know is (0+ / 0-)

    What I want to know is if the media is going to apply the same standard to all the candidates, and every candidate from now on.

    Is the media going to go back to when the candidates first went to a church and find out who was the preacher/pastor/priest?

    How was the church started? Who were the preachers/pastors/priests friends?

    What sermons/homilies were given each day?

    It's not a sign of weakness to learn from a mistake. It's a sign of stupidity to keep doing the same things over and over without ever learning~Dave Dial

    by DAVE DIAL on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:23:36 AM PDT

  •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

    New PPP Polls out today show obama getting crushed by McCain in both Ohio and Florida.  Hillary beats McCain in Ohio and only loses Florida by 4%.  

  •  Left is good at blogs but not viral email (0+ / 0-)

    It is time for the left to match the right with that.

    My mom gets those e-mails--Obama is a Muslim, etc and if I am not there, she would have believe in it.

    The problem is if she returns to the sender (usually a relative) anti GOP and facts and truths,  they get mad at her and complain she is insulting their intelligence---but they dont hesitate to send those GOP distortions and lies to my mom.

    These people are bullies.

    I think the left should match it by viral-emailing the truth to these blinded and misinformed rightwingers.

    Fact check Obama spins on Hillary http://facts.hillaryhub.com/

    by timber on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:24:27 AM PDT

    •  Agreed on problem, not solution (0+ / 0-)

      Yes- viral email/whisper campaigns are the most effective force we've encountered yet and they're difficult to counteract without the MSM joining in.

      But I hesitate to drop to their level. We can simply send viral emails that are actually true. It might shock some people what's actually being done.

    •  she should forward those emails to.. (0+ / 0-)

      watchdog@barackobama.com
      Any materials regarding Obama's religion or question his patriotism.
      I found that at his website.  

      It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. Alfred Adler

      by Quicksilver2723 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:33:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't know (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    beltane, mayim

    but this morning on NPR they were discussing the fact that ALOT of prominent people go to Obama's church. And apparently they are ready to defend their church against the haters and FOX propagandists.
    Obama fought and won many battles with his speech yesterday. And the best quote? The reminder:

    [that the] most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning...

    (The quote's a little off topic but damn it drew the first of several applauses and bears noting!)

    Can Hillary beat McCain? Is she putting the SCOTUS at risk? And abortion rights?

    by Data Mining Telecom Fascist on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:24:28 AM PDT

  •  Or as I read somewhere (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lysias

    from a comment by a Hillary 08 supporter ( I say Hillary 08 because that was the signature) - since Obama wasnt present at church during those fateful speeches he doesnt relly go to church so he must be a muslim !!

  •  Obama's lead in polls has evaporated... (0+ / 0-)

    the Clinton scam worked.
    Poll made before the speech, but did it make a difference?

    McCain 08, I guess. The man's a looney, though, Sigh.

    Enough! Send her back to OZ!

    by johnviking on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:26:43 AM PDT

  •  It's all to clear the path for Romney or Huckabee (0+ / 0-)

    --me thinks that all the brouhaha about wright is two-pronged:  not just to smack down obama's pull on the independents and repub swingers, but to clear the path for Huckabee's insane sermon soundbites or Romney's cult questions for their respective suitability to be VP.

  •  Completely disagree with Giordano (0+ / 0-)

    Both memes are about the same thing: Obama is unpatriotic, a Manchurian candidate.

    They dovetail nicely.

    And if it's an either/or situation, it's either he's unpatriotic or he's unpatriotic.

    Not much choice.

    Though I agree they seem to contradict, it's all just code for some thing else.

    Ultimately the smears against Obama are about hatred of blacks, hatred of Muslims, but mostly they are about making him seem unpatriotic.

    This is ALWAYS the way the GOP goes at Democrats. They did it to Dukakis, Clinton, Kerry, and now Obama.

    Look at these people! They suck each other! They eat each other's saliva and dirt! -- Tsonga people of southern Africa on Europeans kissing.

    by upstate NY on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:28:55 AM PDT

  •  So, the trolls have to be on the clock by 10AM? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bushondrugs, earicicle

    Interesting. I wonder if they have fresh talking points squeezed for them each morning.

    There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your week. By the way, is there anyone here who knows how to run a government?

    by iconoclastic cat on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:29:09 AM PDT

  •  The "Offical Lunatic Explanation" (0+ / 0-)

    I heard this one when I was guesting on Todd Feinburg's show on Sunday: "Obama was a Muslim as a child that only converted to Christianity when he decided it would advance his radical Islamofascist agenda".

    I pointed out that BHO had never been Muslim and it sailed over the head of the batshit crazy whackadoodle NaziSymp on the phone.

    It's like this, Mr Markos: Today's winger is not only impervious to reason, they are now impervious to fact. If they decided that "the number four is a lib", then 2 + 2 could never equal 4.

    In their little hothouses, where they only listen to each other, they've become off the charts loony tunes.

  •  That's the irony of this (0+ / 0-)

    It is very important to the right-wing lunatics that this church-thing stick, that's why FOX news is crying us a river trying to manufacture the outrage concerning the discovery that one, Obama sat in the pews, and two, he did not disown the Rev. They know if it doesn't stick, it obliterates the other Muslim rumour. Then they'd have to look for another smear.

    This is the problem they have on their hands. They are facing a formidable opponent.

    The truth is this: The more intense the campaign to tear down his character becomes, the more the racist undertones would surface.

    So, let them continue.

    A chick that will grow into a cock can be spotted the day it hatches -- African Proverb

    by The British Observer on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:30:25 AM PDT

  •  crazies on the right?? (0+ / 0-)

    Im more worried about the crazies on the left right now....didnt you just read the Zogby poll? Obamas lead has evaporated against Hillary, and Mark Penn and HRC probably secretly cant contain their glee....for Mark Penn this is affirmation that negativity works and we will see more of it in the coming days from the HRC camp

    "eeyeah Hi..eeyeah..Id like you to go ahead and support Obama" Bill Lumbergh-Office Space

    by girlyman on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:30:36 AM PDT

  •  Not a stretch for them (0+ / 0-)

    Nothing is too great a stretch for them.

    "The three main issues in this campaign are Iraq, I raq, and Iraq." -- Bill Foster

    by Frank Palmer on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:30:39 AM PDT

  •  I'm sure they'll find a way (0+ / 0-)

    they'll probably say that Obama used to be a Muslim, but he converted to Christianity... and is thus a flip-flopper.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

    by jackbauer8393 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:31:18 AM PDT

  •  Karl Rove Must Be Disappointed (0+ / 0-)

    The attacks on his Christian church remind me of a Karl Rove style attack. It could have easily gone down like this:

    First, the rumors start that he is a Muslim. They do a little polling and realize that a few people are unaware of his true faith. His campaign responds by emphasizing his Christianity (with a lot of focus on the church he regularly attends). Then (a little while after the nomination) Rove hits Obama with an attack at his strength: his Christianity. They play video of Wright making outlandish statements. The press grabs hold of it and amplifies it. "Fair game", they say, to attack his church, since he made such a big deal about it (just like Kerry made such a big deal about his service in Vietnam). The Obama campaign wonders whether it will blow over or whether they should make a big statement. Eventually, it does blow over, but not after taking a small chunk of support for Obama (nothing major, but enough to make this race close). McCain wins in a squeaker and while many analysts say experience was the difference, other pundits point to the "Wright Church Ads" as being the turning point in the race. Democrats are left scratching their heads, once again, about when we will be able to counter this evil Rove.

    The fact that it didn't play out that way is great news indeed. Not only did he show that he could counter ridiculous charges early, and with vigor, but he did so by giving a truly great speech. Obama's relationship with Wright may continue to be an issue to some voters, but it will not bring down his campaign. Rove has one less bullet in his gun.

  •  Doublethink is a powerful thing... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lysias

    Self contradiction is grounds for a medal in Wingnuttia.  I wouldn't put it past them.

  •  He's two, two, two militants in one! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joes Steven, mayim

    Ignorant rightwingers find Obama to be a regular Whitman's Sampler of things they dislike: he has a racially, culturally, and religiously diverse family and background; he's a world traveler who's lived in different places; he's smart and articulate; he believes in making the whole community (neighborhood, country, world) a better place.

    No wonder they hate him. That all sounds like pure-D evil to me.

  •  New meme from the Right: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joes Steven

    "Muslim Fifth Columnist Barack Obama attends church to subvert it with hate monger Wright"

    /snark

    "That's quite a jump. But you keep it up, I'm sure one day you'll clear that shark."

    by Steve In DC on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:32:10 AM PDT

  •  This is pretty standard of the GOP marketing (0+ / 0-)

    technique.  They generally float out multiple rumors & see what people latch onto the strongest.  But they really don't have to commit; just create a general dislike/distrust for whatever reason.  And what I call "white fear" is the easiest to capitalize on.  

  •  Some of them have actually (0+ / 0-)

    Combined Obama's 'hateful' church into some sort of Muslim-Christian-Anti-American smorgasbord.

    Our elecorate in this country really is mind-bogglingly stupid.  It's hard to have any confidence.

  •  It's built into the smear: (0+ / 0-)

    Wahabbism is the radical teaching that created the Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad on the industrialized world.

    Since it is politically expedient to be a Christian when you are seeking political office in the United States, Obama joined the United Church of Christ to help purge any notion that he is still a Muslim.

    That's why Clinton's 60 Minutes hedge bothered me so much. The smear isn't just that he's a Muslim, but that he's a Muslim pretending to be a Christian. The email asks the reader to not take Obama at his word, and Clinton in her reply offers up nothing more than that. She offers no additional challenge to the viewer than what the smear has already acknowledged, therefore she really ends up saying nothing.

    She may not have realized that, but that's what happened.

    So, Obama can still be a Muslim and can still be embroiled in this mess with Wright, though I agree, it's getting hard to maintain both. Perhaps it will reveal some to be the opportunistic Obama (Democrat) haters that they are.

    -6.00, -7.03
    Obama '08

    by johnsonwax on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:33:51 AM PDT

  •  Poll shows Obama loosing ground. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bandersnatch

    A new Reuters poll today showed that Obama's lead over both Hillary and Casper the friendly ghost has evaporated.  Hillary is beginning to gain on McCain whereas Obama is going backwards.  He should have resigned from that church.

  •  Missing the Point (0+ / 0-)

    It has little to do with logic.  All of this is a modern version of reminding America that the guy is "A DAMN BLACK MAN!!!"  Back in the day they would merely whisper "He's a n***ger."  Yet, with that lane closed we get the code.  At this point the MSM has us all in a mosh pit while we miss the bigger picture.  The MSM, owned by the Murdochs of the world, have given us a steady diet of "Woman v. Man," "Latino v. Black," "Muslim v. Catholic," "Black v. Jew," etc. etc.  We are divided and conquered.  So stop looking for the racist angle and the logic.  It is merely fuel being poured on our fire.  By the time we get to the GE we will have punched each other dead and the electorate, the little people, will remain powerless.  Stop chomping at the bait.

  •  Kos, I thought you knew (0+ / 0-)

    by now not to put anything past the crazies.  If there is a way to spin this story both ways, they will find it.

    Never confuse kindness and patience with stupidity and weakness!!

    by Joes Steven on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:37:37 AM PDT

  •  I'm unhappy. And worried. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bandersnatch

    Look at my user id.  I've been around a while.  I've also posted comments supporting Obama.  So I'm not a recently-registered Hillary troll.

    And I'm not happy about this preacher and Obama's closeness to him.  Those remarks, even in context, are pretty offensive.  And Obama never seemed to object until they became widely discussed.

    Obama has been running on a "bring-us-all-together" platform, and, as others have pointed out, his policy experience could be greater.  So when I see something like this, I get worried.

    His speech was nice, but I'm not sure it has undone the damage.

    Frankly, I think Obama has blown it.  Maybe that's not fair, but that's the way I see it.

    •  Well, then your just going to have (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      davebert

      to settle being on the wrong side of history. Like the Bushites, but they are well used to it already.

      Hillary kept touting her experience, but not what she learned from it.

      by KingGeorgetheTurd on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:39:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not nearly as offensive (0+ / 0-)

      as what preachers on the right have spouted for years, and they've done it with full approval and attendence by politicians who suffered nothing as a consequence. Heck some of them even ran for President while spouting it, and were serious contenders, if in a small way.

      It's a right wing spin you're buying, please don't. It only helps give it legitimacy.

  •  A Christian Muslim (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    timelad, mayim

    is the worst kind of Muslim!!!!

  •  Sad (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hideinplainsight

    It's borderline funny, in the worst way, that people really do believe Obama is a muslim. I can't imagine anyone being so ill informed, but a call i heard on CSPAN made me stop laughing and start feeling queezy.

    CSPAN showed Obama's moving speech and were taking calls from viewers. Most reactions were positive, however one gentleman from TN got on the phone and let his complete idiocy and racism be known.

    He called Obama a "colored man"
    Said you can never let anyone with a middle name Muhammed into the white house (at least be informed about your false information).
    And ended the call be saying the Senator was a Muslim and that's who we are fighting.

    AMMMAZING

    •  yeah, well, this is America (0+ / 0-)

      one man/one woman/one vote.  Maybe we should just go back to the beginning and only allow white male property owners to vote.

    •  A lot of people think... (0+ / 0-)

      that "Muslim" is an ethnicity, like being Jewish is both religious and cultural.  You might not be practicing, but you are a still Jew.

      I've heard it said that he has "Muslim blood" as if it is in the DNA and not a belief system.

      Mixed up thinking like that takes a long time to dissipate, especially when people actively keep it going.

  •  Islamofacist or Christofascist? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    timelad

    McCain can't denounce the Christofacists, they form much of his base.  

  •  Look over there! It's Obama! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SadTexan, KingGeorgetheTurd

    No, it's a blonde!  (Or an Angry Black Man.)

    No, it's a shiny object!

    I know who's gonna be our next President is important indeed, but right now we're staring at:

    1. Dollar depreciation  
    1. Increasing Inflation
    1. Increasing cost of living
    1. US economy 70% consumer based tanking
    1. Boomers nearing retirement which will put ever more stress on the US to provide financial support and healthcare
    1. Shrinking workforce
    1. Rising National Debt
    1. Criminal, poorly conducted and expensive wars on two fronts
    1. A looming $1 trillion bailout of the US financial system

    Jon Stewart was right; the media is killing us.

    OVER HERE: AN AMERICAN EXPAT IN THE SOUTH OF FRANCE, is now available on Amazon US

    by Lupin on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:42:20 AM PDT

  •  the next wave of attacks: HE'S AGNOSTIC (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SadTexan

    Hey, they can't do that. because,
    I'M AGNOSTIC!

    In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

    by agnostic on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:43:38 AM PDT

  •  And the vast majority of Americans (0+ / 0-)

    say they wouldn't vote for an atheist for president.

    Me, I think a smart, rational atheist would be an excellent choice.

  •  polls (0+ / 0-)

    I have no doubt that the Pastor Wright flap took a toll on Obama's ratings.  Whether it will matter in five weeks when we have the next primary in PA remains to be seen.  But he does face a problem in that many of the low-information voters who are Hillary's core constituency will see the oft-repeated video of an angry black Pastor, but they aren't seeing the extraordinary, complex, and sophisticated 20-minute speech that Obama gave.  Those voters are easily manipulated, and the Clinton campaign and the MSM are expert at the game.

    I wish the superdelegates would slam-dunk this thing sooner than later, because I foresee very dark clouds on the Democratic Party horizon.

  •  Both are actually secret undercover identities... (0+ / 0-)

    ...intended to distract an unwitting American public from the fact that Obama is, in reality, a Canadian hellbent on foisting bad, cheap beer upon innocent and brave Americans.

    Eh.

  •  Ras. tracking up today v. Clinton (0+ / 0-)

    O: 47 (+2)
    C: 42 (-2)

    The bad post-Wright sample, last Friday's, rolled off the tracking average. According to Rasmussen, that explains the result more than a post-speech jump. Here.

  •  You are completely missing the point. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pharoah

    It is not necessary to add 2+2 to get a rational number.

    All you have to do is add potato and pineapple--i.e., Muslim + Christian = neither, so Obama is really an atheist = not electable OR Muslim +/- Christian = TWO reasons not to vote for him. Or something.

    Thing is, when you're dealing with teh stupids, you start with the idea that reality doesn't matter.

    •  Exactly,..... (0+ / 0-)

      At this point they are just throwing pails of shit against the wall to see what sticks. It doesnt have to make sense. A strong selling point was Obama's comfort talking about his religion so this line of attack making him looking Islamic attacks that advantage. They also want to attack his aim of being post-racial, the Wright smears attack that as well.

      only the dissatisfied can make change

      by pharoah on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:42:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You don't understand... (0+ / 0-)

    People who believe the Muslim smear also believe that his church is a secret Muslim church mascarading as a Christian church.  They see Wright's words and his "relationship" with Farrakhan as proof of that.

  •  The United Church of Chist (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    deadinthewater

    is a crazy Black Muslim congregation.
    Next question?

  •  Here's the deal... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nwreader

    Obama is really an undercover Muslim and head of an Al Qaeda cell, but he is pretending to be a Christian by attending a black church.

    Yeah, that's the ticket.

  •  that's the sound of millions (0+ / 0-)

    of heads exploding.

    3.9 million, to be exact.

    Unless of course they choose the preferred Bush method of pushing their fingers into their ears and humming loudly for the next eight months.


    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! - President Merkin Muffley

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:51:48 AM PDT

  •  leave it to kos (0+ / 0-)

    to not understand that being a part of the christian church was a cover for his muslimness.
    Geez, does everything have to be spelled out for him?

  •  The Manning video on YouTube (0+ / 0-)

    There is a truly, truly, outrageously offensive anti-Obama sermon on the Web here.

    I'm not trying to be a shill or a concern troll here. Dr*dge has linked to the video, so it's probably going to get a huge number of hits and might be something to think about. Even if the campaign is going to ignore the video, campaign folks have to think about just how and why they will ignore it.

    ATLAH Pastor James David Manning, who apparently is known for expressing highly unusual views, starts off talking about he believes Obama is a "pimp," because Obama got his start by putting his name on the chests of white women with large breasts, and about how Obama's mother was trash.

    I could hang on for the pimp part, but, honestly, I just couldn't keep watching after he talked about Obama's mom being trash.

    She was a daughter of Kansas, and of a veteran of Patton's army. She was a daughter of the American Revolution many times over, and the descendant of people who have lived in the New York and New Jersey area since the 1640s. She was a descendant of Henry II of England, and, therefore, of even earlier people with names such as "Donald II, King of Scotland," who probably got to joust when jousting was in fashion the first time around. She made a career of trying to use micro finance to help the poorest women in the world dig themselves out of poverty. She died of ovarian and uterine cancer when she was just 52.

    So, anyhow, after Manning called Obama's mother trash, I couldn't watch it any more. Maybe Manning somehow turns it around later in the speech and turns it in another, more acceptable direction. If there's someone here with a stronger stomach and a talent for smacking down Swift Boating, maybe it would be cool if you could watch the thing and figure out if someone has to do something about it.

    My hope is that HRC and McCain would see, instantly, that this video is so horrible and disgusting that, if it gets any real traction, they have to repudiate it for the sake of their own souls, and just so that they don't look as horrible as Manning (e.g., trashing the memory of a woman who was, in effect, a secular mission aid worker). Regardless, I do think that this is the sort of tape that should at least unite Democrats in disgust.

    •  Not only that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sclminc

      but he's Dick Cheney's COUSIN!  Shouldn't that make his mother, who is also Dick Cheney's COUSIN, sacrosanct?

      No really, it's a classic "yo mama".  Just a standard racist smear.  Insult the black guy's mother, watch him lose it.  Use that as proof of his inferiority.  They must really think he's going to fall for that.

      Tolle crucem, qui vis auferre coronam.

      by nwreader on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:45:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're joking, but yes. How could you (0+ / 0-)

        handle seeing someone trashing a charitable woman who was actually on your own family tree and then died of cancer at the age of 52?

        I'm freaked out by Cheney, but I don't think he's that evil in that particular way.

        •  My family (0+ / 0-)

          is as dysfunctional as they come.  I was raised by wolves.  I've had to listen to both parents criticize each other, criticize their own parents, criticize their own children, siblings criticize each other, criticize their children.  It's awful.  You learn to ignore it or go crazy.  

          I think Obama will see this as baiting and ignore it.  I hope.  

          The Cheney line was just a joke - insulting Obama's family is an insult to Cheney.  I guess it didn't come out right.  I'm not implying he himself is behind the baiting.  

          Tolle crucem, qui vis auferre coronam.

          by nwreader on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:34:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, I know that. I'm sure even Cheney would be (0+ / 0-)

            pretty appalled by the idea of Manning trashing Obama's dead mom, and I understand that you wouldn't think Cheney would approve of such a thing. I'm just ranting in general about the awfulness of such a horrible sermon.

            I guess one question would be, if people opposing Obama want him to repudiate Wright, what do they do about Manning? Of course, in this case, that's a gimme, and they'll repudiate Manning.

  •  I was wondering the same thing (0+ / 0-)

    Now some of the rumors may start conflating the two--Crazy Black Muslim Christian church.. But the two really are mutually contradictory

  •  Are you THE Kos? (0+ / 0-)

    "While I know the crazies on the Right have a remarkable power to ignore the laws of reality, science, and logic in pursuit of their wrongheaded ideology, trying to float both these theories at once might be a stretch,even for them."  
    (Kos)

    There are some crazies on the Left, as well.  Where?  On here and some other sites.  I just started visiting these kinds of sites and posting and blogging on them, 3 weeks ago.  I joined them to learn and grow and to debate. And in my travels from to thread and site to site, I ran into some crazie Lefties, who called me 'troll', 'plant', and just today, a 'twisted HRC supporter'. (I support Obama.) Debate wasn't allowed: you either towed the line or else.  And Left as they could be!

    Let's be honest: there are crazies on both sides and in the middle too. You are right: they'll never float THESE two theories with any success.  But they'll sure it give their best shot!

    •  Welcome (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      emme

      I sort of felt the same way when I first started visiting political blogs.

      It's not really debate, per se.  It's looser and more free-wheeling, and that can definitely be a little alienating.

      But once you get the hang of it, get used to it, over time, it is very enriching.

      If someone is hassling you, ask for a link to back up their arguments, and then go explore their source...that's the real value of this media, an aggregation of information, a gathering.

      It's a huge pain in the ass sometimes, but there is a lot to learn here and elsewhere.

      •  thanks, cdodd (0+ / 0-)

        It wasn't all bad.  I've had some wonderful exchanges, some quite lengthy.  But the other stuff...three friends of mine just left another site, never to blog again.  One was hounded, tracked from thread to thread, humiliated, and when he finally blew his stack and told them to get stuffed, they reported him for abuse!  Yes!  Or at least they said they did, he never heard a thing about it, wasn't banned.  It's too bad because it ruins the experience for a newcomer. Anyway, thanks for welcoming me.  Have you been here long?

  •  In wingnuttia (0+ / 0-)

    Radical black = Muslim.

  •  They can just accuse him of "flip-flopping" (0+ / 0-)

    "Barack was a Muslim one day and a Christian the next ... Which is it Senator Obama? Muslim, or Christian with a crazy pastor." Of course they'd be the ones flip-flopping as Obama was never a Muslim, but would that stop them? I don't think so. They know no bounds. Living close to the convention site in Minnesota, I should probably capitalize on this and buy a bunch of third-rate over sized sandals to sell. I could retire on the money I made, if I could live with myself doing that -- which I couldn't.

  •  Great Speach but... (0+ / 0-)

    I felt it was a little self serving.  Obama was after the heads of Ferraro, Cunningham, and Imus but when the nonsense hit close to home he says "we need to stop playing the gotcha game"

    I agree with his points but his speech seemed a little self serving.

    I personally think we need the clowns in politics.  We have too many BEIGE politicians in both parties.  

    It is time to kick focus group politicians out!  

    •  yes, freefall (0+ / 0-)

      Obama was after the heads of Ferraro, Cunningham, and Imus but when the nonsense hit close to home he says "we need to stop playing the gotcha game"
                        ************
      Very good point. I support Obama but this latest thing with his pastor, I don't like it.

  •  What was wrong with Wright's comments? (0+ / 0-)

    I assume the WaPo published the most inflamatory statements that Rev. Wright has made and I am still wondering...what the hell is so wrong with them?

    Many of us on the left have been utterly disgusted by the hijacking of religious imagery and language to justify imperialistic/corporatist goals so why has there been no pushback to defend Rev. Wright when he points that out to his congregation.  

    The view of the world from the underside of history can lead one to "not so polite" conclusions.  When people are moved to make these statements due to a belief in a loving God who suffers with the least among us, those people are prophetic AND historically attacked.  I'm surprised there has been no cover thrown to the Rev. Wright for what seems to be harsh yet, more or less accurate and unsettling, statements about our society.

    What am I missing here?

    •  Go ahead and defend the comments (0+ / 0-)

      and watch Obama win just Washington DC in the GE.  

      This is politics and the man has to be pragmatic!

      •  I'm not talking Obama I'm talking u and me (0+ / 0-)

        TFFD,
         You missed the point.  I'm not saying that Obama doesn't have to distance himself (I accept there are political realities especially when you're dealing with the echo chamber) but what about those of us who read Jeremiah's statements and thought "is that all he said?"
         Where is the pushback from the progressive community?  Seems like again we are tuck tailing and running b/c the media is piling it on?

  •  2 different camps here (0+ / 0-)

    On the one hand there's the guy like on 60 minutes, who "heard" that Barack is a Muslim. I think it helps with him (but I could be wrong). But maybe the uninformed voter it might help with.

    On the other hand, there's the racist, "do anything to denigrate him" and I don't think they care at all (but their mind is made up). They might even think he's so evil that he'd have 2 religions. They definitely think that this Christian thing is a cover -- and they equate him with Farrakhan. For them, I think it's a wash because black power = Muslim = black church and it's all kind of the same thing. I doubt they look at his church and see anything recognizably Christian anyway.

  •  Always a silver lining. (0+ / 0-)

    It does dispel the myth of his religion being Muslim.  Those who refuse to accept that have either been under a rock or wear a tinfoil hat.  In any circumstance, the wouldn't vote for Obama anyway.

    Huckabee stepping up the way he did (my respect for him increased quite a bit) and explaining it to the Right Wing-o-sphere should help calm over the patriotism farce as well to a degree.

    The speech is, pretty much, universally hailed as well done because of the issues it addressed and the fact he had the balls to take it on.  All in all, he has handled this well.

    I vote and I'm pissed off!

    by TheStormofWar on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:01:08 AM PDT

    •  we're missing something (0+ / 0-)

      he doesn't have to BE a muslim for Rove to get the country wound up.  He only has to have strong ties to them and great sympathy with them, all the while being a Christian. I am in the UK, and Gordon Brown, the PM, is a staunch Christian...with very strong ties to the muslim council of britain.  indeed, they convinced him to introduce something out of Shariah Law which allows muslims to get interest-free loans.  This was leaked and people went mad.  Anyway, as long as the ties are there, you can scare the country even if you have to admit that he isn't a muslim.

  •  Oh, don't underestimate them... (0+ / 0-)

    I know one or two who might indeed be capable of pushing both points within a paragraph, if not actually the same sentence...

  •  Wish we could tie this guy to Clinton-He is Crazy (0+ / 0-)

    I didn't know Tits was a word used in Church, but the clintons gave his area millions of dollars before they left. Not sure where that area is

  •  Only a Muslim (0+ / 0-)

    wouldn't understand what a real Christian church is, which explains why he picked such an unChristian church to attend.

    Damn, his cover has now been exposed. What will he do next?

    Answers on a postcard please.

    "You want tact? You call a tactician"

    by mierts on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:17:02 AM PDT

  •  Think "Scanners" and what is happeing to their (0+ / 0-)

    little Reich Wing, Christianista crazy, Fascist noggin's right about now!!!  Ahhhh..... too funny!

    Scanners at IMDB and a Youtube(grossout warning).

    You don't negotiate with fascists, you defeat them in the name of democracy. --Ambr. Joe Wilson

    by FightTheFuture on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:17:20 AM PDT

      •  I will explain since you powers of perception are (0+ / 0-)

        shall we say, lacking here.

        The title, of this diary is "Crazy Muslim or crazy Christian?"  It refers to Obama and the reich wing smears on him to create another faux controversy.  Now that they are attempting to smear him on two opposite points

        , "do they push false rumors that he's a secret Muslim bent on delivering America to Al Qaida, or is he a member of an intolerant and radical black Christian church"

        They are in a bind, as the diarist points out.  I am adding to it by providing a visual aid courtesy of the movie "Scanners" to suggest that their "little noggins" are exploding.

        Is that coherent enough for you?

        You don't negotiate with fascists, you defeat them in the name of democracy. --Ambr. Joe Wilson

        by FightTheFuture on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:16:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  You don't get it, they will say he is both. . . (0+ / 0-)

    Trust me. I grew up with these people. I hear what they say. This is simple. They will say that Obama is a member of a radical hate White America Black Church, AND he uses it to cover-up his Terrorist Islamo Facist take-over plans as the one and true Anti-Christ, though Bill and Hillary are Anti-Christs In Waiting.

    AND, when you hear this and drop your jaw in disbelief they will think you are a fool, brainwashed by the MSM.

    It all comes down to one thing. Hate. Hate is what get these people up in the morning and out the door. It is what makes being a slave to crap wages and the junk they must buy - bearable. No hate, and they will have to confront the empty shrieking reality that they have been played for fools by the bastards that have own them all of their lives. Have some pity, please.

  •  Not so fast Kos... (0+ / 0-)

    >>it really puts Obama's smear merchants in a bind -- do they push false rumors that he's a secret Muslim bent on delivering America to Al Qaida, or is he a member of an intolerant and radical black Christian church?<<</p>

    You make it sound as if this all comes from one place. I disagree. A plethora of opponents from neocons to wingnut talk radio losers to politicians looking nervously at their futures will attack him any way they please, from whatever direction, and the brain-dead undecideds and vacillators get to pick from Column A or Column B. To the extent they don't cancel each other out, what's left works to McCain's advantage.

    That said, I think it will take more than misreads of Obama's religion to deliver the general election to McCain. Economic downturn, wars, job losses, home foreclosures, lack of health insurance -- "something for everyone" to vote "No" to four or eight more years of blithering idiocy and criminal misuse of this country's human and natural resources. 100 years my ass, Senator Manchurian Candidate. How 'bout a nice game of solitaire?

  •  I was hoping for a poll (0+ / 0-)

    I was hoping for a poll where we could choose crazy muslim, crazy christian, scary muslim manchurian candidate, or "the black candidate" as Juan Williams calls Obama.

    Did anyone else see Good Morning America w/ Noonan and Williams?    ABC News continues its conservative bias - and Juan Williams, jeez, give me a break.   As my teenager would say: "what a tool"

  •  They probably will push both - just to (0+ / 0-)

    different sectors of their "base".

    I'm still of the opinion that every time we see a "Obama is a Muslim" we should respond sorrowfully that he is not, because if he were we could shut down on bin Ladin's "Americans are out to get us" recruiting posters.  It won't change their minds, but it will shut them up (at least temporarily).

  •  actually... (0+ / 0-)

    There's no reason at all why he couldn't be a secret Muslim bent on handing America over to Al Qaida AND a member of an intolerant, radical, black Christian church, provided that, at baptism, he lies about being a Christian.  No one could be both Muslim and Christian, but one could be a muslim and lie about being a Christian, or the opposite.  No logical inconsistency in any of this.  Who would think up something like this? Let me think...Rove?  We better hope not; if it's Rove, he WILL succeed!

    •  there's more! (0+ / 0-)

      the archbishop of Canterbury, who, it has to be said, is about as Christian as they come, has extremely strong ties to the muslim community here in the UK.  nearly ruined him a couple of months ago.  gave a speech, suggesting, yes, a few more little elements of Sharia Law might be worth  considering.  Sure, the muslim council of Britain isn't Al Qaida.  but over here, many people suspect them of turning a blind to the more extreme elements of islam.  guilt by silence.  never speaking up against them.  so there are any number of ways that Rove could tie Obama to ideologies and those who adhere to them, in order to scare mainstream America or at least make it very nervous.

  •  The Thing is (0+ / 0-)

    How does a black afrocentric church  reflect the "lets all come together  and transcend race" theme that Obama  is running on?

    As a kid in the eartly  60's  my family belonged to a baptist church  in San Diego which ,while predominately white, had Hispanic, Filipino, and a few black members.    I'm not a believer now, but that church back then  looks a lot more inclusive than Wright's does now.

    •  Obama's not asking you to join his church (0+ / 0-)

      He's asking you to join the rest of the people in this nation that want better healthcare, better jobs and wages, better education and energy independence in returning to the political process to make that happen.

      Obama is the only candidate in this election that has bothered to ask the American people for anything more than just their vote.

      That's leadership and that how we can improve our country.

      Where you worship is your own business.

  •  Every mushroom cloud has a silver lining (0+ / 0-)

    Could sure have lived without this Wright controversy. But, yup, that's the silver lining.

    Of course there will be people who will still jump through hoops to make both accusations at once (and presumably something about Farrakhan will be involved).

    Please visit me at www.billcamarda.com/weblog.htm

    by bcamarda on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:49:19 AM PDT

  •  No today Obama is someone who is never going to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    trivium

    Get the White Man non-college vote in PA or Ohio this fall according to the same man that predicted Giuliani would be our next president six months ago.....Joe Scarborough.  I am a white non-college woman telling everyone he is getting my vote, and it was only this morning I sent more money to his campaign as this fight is one we must win.

  •  Obama not very smart (0+ / 0-)

    Obama was smart enough to heed Rev.Wright's own advice for Obama to ditch him:
    This is from an interview with PBS and Obama's reverend (Rev. Jeremiah Wright).  Why should a presidential candidate have to distance himself from 'a man of God' so that the candidate's Jewish support doens't wane.?  Imagine a republican having to do this.

    ...In fact, I just shared with, I was trying to remember who it is, somebody in public life was asking me about Barack, and I said listen, Barack might be forced by the media and/or by supporters to be very absent from this church and to put distance between our church and himself. As a politician, he might be forced into that. I have not talked to him about that at all. It's just that my read just of the blogs and what the right-Christian-wing leaders have said about him being a part of our church over past three months says this is -- you think it's ugly now, it's going to get worse, it's going to get much worse. For survival's sake, as a politician he just might have to not -- not that I love you less, I love me more. I'll never get elected as long as they keep harping on this. And that's -- again, I haven't talked to him about that at all.

    Q: How do you feel about that?

    A: I would understand. I really would. I would understand. For instance ... he can't afford the Jewish support to wane or start questioning his allegiance to the state of Israel because I'm saying the position we've taken in terms of Palestinians is wrong, and I think we need to revisit that. Just that kind of statement would cause negative repercussions in some quarters in terms of some supporters, in terms of some people he needs to support his election campaign.

    Q: So you're willing to distance?

    A: Yeah. I don't want to hurt him. ...
    http://www.pbs.org/...

  •  hee hee hee (0+ / 0-)

    I do love it when they do this to themselves.

    "Staying the course" is what sunk the Titanic.

    by PomperaFirpa on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:34:20 AM PDT

  •  drudge and fox are piling on (0+ / 0-)

    Something tells me that Drudge and Fox are going to blow it this time.  They are piling on, and, in general, people don't like that.  I bet you anything this latyest sicko attempt by Drudge to keep it going, is going to backfire; and if Fox gets in on this newest clip and goes into saturation mode, it will disgust people.  does anyone agree?

  •  And curiously missing from all of your messages (0+ / 0-)

    Is that John Murtha endorsed Hillary Clinton.  I know that Markos and most DailyKos denizens are opposed to Clinton, but I didn't think they would ignore obvious facts just because they might interfere with a pro-Obama narrative.  Not so long ago, John Murtha was heralded as a hero for speaking out against the war.  

    •  John Murtha's endorsement was noted (0+ / 0-)

      It just got missing amongst all the other big news with the race speech, the Iraq anniversary and such.

      If Hillary's looking for attention to her ability to lead, she'd do well to address the gender issues she's felt have come to bear down on this election.

      Actually sacrificing some of your own political capital to address a major issue affecting all Americans shows quite a bit of leadership.

      It's also effective on taking hold on the news cycle so you can be heard on other major issues as well.

      As Hillary has inferred, leadership takes more than just calling yourself a leader.

  •  Don't Misunderestimate them (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    trivium, FishBiscuit

    The crazy right wingers probably don't think Black churches are "Christian" anyway.

  •  Classic Orwellian Doublethink. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FishBiscuit

    Obama is a radical Christian and a radical Muslim.  

    He's also a member of the Jewish Defense League, the Hindu sect who demolished the mosque in India, an OT VIII Scientologist, and a no-godson of Madelyn Murray O'Hare.

    And he's gay and wants to marry your white son.

    9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

    by varro on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 12:16:39 PM PDT

  •  I thik they will claim the whole church (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FishBiscuit

    is Christian in name Only and that black churches in general are secretly America-hating Muslim groups.  Stop laughing... I seriously think this is what they will claim.

  •  Don't... underestimate... the power... (0+ / 0-)

    of the Dark Side!

    - Yoda

  •  Don't be too sure (0+ / 0-)

    that successfully maintaining contradictory assertions about Obama will be difficult for the Right.  Average American voters are famous for their lack of logic or consistency.  ("Lower my taxes AND fix those potholes!") Having already swallowed the Muslim terrorist and racist pastor arguments hook, line and sinker, certain voters will have no trouble conflating these two arguments.  Villifying and demonizing Obama, quite simply, APPEALS to them.  Most people believe what they WANT to believe regardless of the facts.

    "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." -Thomas Jefferson

    by delillo2000 on Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 03:49:59 AM PDT

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