Skip to main content

Senator Clinton’s claims about her visit to Tuzla, Bosnia—and the footage disproving her account—have created quite a stir. And with good reason. As the Associated Press wrote yesterday: "What makes Clinton’s situation unique—and the Bosnia embellishments so damaging—is the fact that the New York senator has built her candidacy on the illusion of experience. Any attack on her credentials is a potential Achilles heel."

Unfortunately, Clinton’s fantastic invention of a sniper-raked landing is only one in a growing list of instances in which she has exaggerated her role as First Lady, particularly with respect to domestic policy.

This could be a really devastating line of attack against Clinton.  First, it undermines her claims of experience, which is supposed to be why she's "ready to lead on day one."  If you can wipe out the main argument for her candidacy, she's destroyed.
Furthermore, these criticisms raise serious questions about her electability.  This is the question she's trying to raise about Obama, but for anyone who was sentient in 2000, these exaggerations and fabrications should evoke memories of Al Gore fending off the "flip flop" charges and looking silly as he was accused of plenty of silly comments he never made, like claiming to have discovered Love Canal or having invented the internet.  Of course, the press exaggerated Gore's supposed exaggerations.  Also, there was no YouTube in 2000 to demonstrate and disseminate an accurate depiction of what Gore said in these instances.  

Unlike Gore, who in a few individual instances made ill-advised comments that then got blown out of proportion, Clinton has made the questionable claims numerous times, and has even put some of them on her website, like saying she was involved in the creation or passage of key domestic accomplishments such as SCHIP and the Family and Medical Leave Act.  The public record and the statements of people like Henry Waxman who were directly involved in that legislation doesn't support or even contradicts her claims.  

If the serial exaggeration accusation sticks to her, it will further solidify the emerging media narrative that the only major question left in the Democratic contest is when Hillary Clinton will concede that she has lost and that Barack Obama will be our presidential nominee.  

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:08 PM PDT.

Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags


More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Calling a spade a spade (25+ / 0-)

    It's helpful when your opponent is actually guilty of what you accuse them of.

    "Universal suffrage should rest upon universal education." - Rutherford B. Hayes

    by rdxtion on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:10:07 PM PDT

    •  The funny thing... (9+ / 0-)

      Whatever may be said about the exaggerations in the first place, it points to a deeper mistake.  Assume for the moment that her story was true.  Heck, assume that people were wounded around her and she barely escaped.  This is where that logic goes:

      Vote for me, Hillary Clinton, because I have the most experience.  I was actually shot at once.  You should definitely vote for me over that guy who joined the military, got shot down, and was tortured.  I have more experience... seeee?!?!?

      Disclaimer: I'm swimming laps in the Obama koolaid

      by sterno on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:27:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not only that, but it's helpful when (15+ / 0-)

      your awful and inept line attacking them on their central selling point

      That's change you can Xerox.

      can be turned into a vicious and funny line attacking you on your central selling point:

      That's experience you have Photoshopped.

      Credit goes to some other recent poster, though I wish I'd thought of it.

      Posting a diary on the nomination? Pay your McCain Tax!

      by Seneca Doane on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:29:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Beware of the counterpunch... (0+ / 0-)

      All politicians exaggerate, including Obama:

      ...several of his oft-recited stories may not have happened in the way he has recounted them. Some seem to make Obama look better in the retelling, others appear to exaggerate his outward struggles over issues of race...

      •  Jonathan Alter has said the Tuzla flap is not a (6+ / 0-)

        "substantive" exaggeration, but more or less a fish story compared to the far more substantive issues regarding Hillary's role in peace negotiations in Ireland, SCHIP and the Family Leave Act.  Speaking with Chris Matthews the other day, the Newsweek columnist emphasized that in these three cases, her role has been "terribly embellished."
            Alter also pointed out that both Clinton and Obama have managed to get only two pieces of important legislation through the Senate - "two for two."  In addition, he explained that because Hillary had no security clearance as First Lady, she was never in on any discussions of national security policy.

        •  So? She says she was the FIRST person (0+ / 0-)

          Bill talked to.  He told her stuff, see?  Don't need security clearances when you have The Big In with a POTUS.

          "Evil is a lack of empathy, a total incapacity to feel with their fellow man." - Capt. Gilbert,Psychiatrist, at the end of Nuremberg trials.

          by 417els on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:59:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  More proof that Obama detractors have nothing---- (5+ / 0-)

        absolutely zero to use against him.  We have Obama saying he had racial identity issues in h.s. and the "exaggeration" is supposed to be because some old friend named Ray said that he and Obama did not talk about racial issues but had long soulful talks about Obama's feelings of longing and loneliness. Um----feelings of longing and loneliness might fit into the confusion of racial identity category.  And besides, I'll take a chance here and take Obama's word on Obama over Ray's word on Obama.
         The other big "exaggeration" is that when he was young he saw an article about skin bleaching in Life magazine, which said they didn't have such an article.  So he saw it in another magazine.  Oh the horrors.
         They have nothing----nothing even remotely resembling anything of substance against Obama.

    •  And it helps if there is video. (0+ / 0-)

      Hillary Clinton: Running on Fumes!

      by Yoshimi on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:39:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's the funny thing (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Debby, mayan, marmar

        How, in an era when, for a limited time only, Disney can find a "more awesomely enhanced than ever" copy of Snow White in its vault every 5 years could Hillary Clinton be unaware that footage of her visit in Bosnia had to exist somewhere, in somebody's archive, ready to be used?

        Like many people said, lying is one thing, but believing your own lie is far more dangerous when a red phone rests a few inches away from magic red button.

        In a "Dog eat Dog" world, the first dog to eat its last rival dies alone.

        by Deltones on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:20:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Here is another one for the list (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Hillary First 'Since Eleanor in War Zone' Claim Not True- Will MSM Report?

        To further puff herself up, Clinton said of her Bosnian trip, "I was the first first lady taken into a war zone since Eleanor Roosevelt during World War II." This was also a line that the Clinton White House spoon fed the press in 1996.

        This claim of Hillary's "first visit since Eleanor" line turns out not to be true, though. It seems that Pat Nixon, wife of president Richard Nixon, earned that distinction back during a 1969 trip to Vietnam.

    •  Note to the media folks reading on Gore (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Debby, tjqhzonff, ybruti

      Al Gore's support of the Internet
      by V.Cerf and B.Kahn

         * Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:30:06 -0700 (PDT)
         * To:
         * Subject: FC: Al Gore's support of the Internet, by V.Cerf and B.Kahn
         * From: Declan McCullagh <>
         * Cc: vcerf@MCI.NET,

      ---------- Forwarded message ----------
      Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:43:58 -0400
      From: vinton g. cerf <vcerf@MCI.NET>
      To: Declan McCullaugh <>,
      Subject: Al Gore and the Internet

      Dave and Declan,

      I am taking the liberty of sending to you both a brief
      summary of Al Gore's Internet involvement, prepared by
      Bob Kahn and me. As you know, there have been a seemingly
      unending series of jokes chiding the vice president for
      his assertion that he "took the initiative in creating
      the Internet."

      Bob and I believe that the vice president deserves significant
      credit for his early recognition of the importance of what has
      become the Internet.

      I thought you might find this short summary of sufficient
      interest to share it with Politech and the IP lists, respectively.


      Al Gore and the Internet

      By Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf
      Al Gore was the first political leader to recognize the importance of the Internet and to promote and support its development.

      No one person or even small group of persons exclusively "invented" the Internet. It is the result of many years of ongoing collaboration among people in government and the university community.  But as the two people who designed the basic architecture and the core protocols that make the Internet work, we would like to acknowledge VP Gore’s contributions as a Congressman, Senator and as Vice President.  No other elected official, to our knowledge, has made a greater contribution over a longer period of time.  

      Last year the Vice President made a straightforward statement on his role.  He said: "During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the Internet."  We don’t think, as some people have argued, that Gore intended to claim he "invented" the Internet. Moreover, there is no question in our minds that while serving as Senator, Gore’s initiatives had a significant and beneficial effect on the still-evolving Internet. The fact of the matter is that Gore was talking about and promoting the Internet long before most people were listening.  We feel it is timely to offer our perspective.

      As far back as the 1970s Congressman Gore promoted the idea of high speed telecommunications as an engine for both economic growth and the improvement of our educational system.   He was the first elected official to grasp the potential of computer communications to have a broader impact than just improving the conduct of science and scholarship. Though easily forgotten, now, at the time this was an unproven and controversial concept.  Our work on the Internet started in 1973 and was based on even earlier work that took place in the mid-late 1960s. But the Internet, as we know it today, was not deployed until 1983. When the Internet was still in the early stages of its deployment, Congressman Gore provided intellectual leadership by helping create the vision of the potential benefits of high speed computing and communication.  As an example, he sponsored hearings on how advanced technologies might be put to use in areas like coordinating the response of government agencies to natural disasters and other crises.

      As a Senator in the 1980s Gore urged government agencies to consolidate what at the time were several dozen different and unconnected networks into an "Interagency Network."  Working in a bi-partisan manner with officials in Ronald Reagan and George Bush’s administrations, Gore secured the passage of the High Performance Computing and Communications Act in 1991.  This "Gore Act" supported the National Research and Education Network (NREN) initiative that became one of the major vehicles for the spread of the Internet beyond the field of computer science.

      As Vice President Gore promoted building the Internet both up and out, as well as releasing the Internet from the control of the government agencies that spawned it.  He served as the major administration proponent for continued investment in advanced computing and networking and private sector initiatives such as Net Day. He was and is a strong proponent of extending access to the network to schools and libraries.  Today, approximately 95% of our nation’s schools are on the Internet. Gore provided much-needed political support for the speedy privatization of the Internet when the time arrived for it to become a commercially-driven operation.

      There are many factors that have contributed to the Internet’s rapid growth since the later 1980s, not the least of which has been political support for its privatization and continued support for research in advanced networking technology.  No one in public life has been more intellectually engaged in helping to create the climate for a thriving Internet than the Vice President.  Gore has been a clear champion of this effort, both in the councils of government and with the public at large.  

      The Vice President deserves credit for his early recognition of the value of high speed computing and communication and for his long-term and consistent articulation of the potential value of the Internet to American citizens and industry and, indeed, to the rest of the world.

  •  This is so sad (39+ / 0-)

    I'm sorry it's gotten to this point. I hope it all ends soon. I'm afraid it won't though.  

    Once in a blue moon, someone comes who rises above the contradiction of modern politics; who effortlessly weaves the abstract with the absolute.

    by jkennerl on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:10:18 PM PDT

  •  Stick a fork in her (24+ / 0-)

    She's got no chance at this point.

    The only question is, will she stop smearing Obama?

    To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

    by discocarp on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:11:51 PM PDT

  •  She asked for it... (13+ / 0-)

    I wish this primary didn't have to end this way, but if you're going to come heavy, be prepared for the other side coming heavy.

    I guess everyone's got their own blog now.

    by zonk on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:12:17 PM PDT

  •  Here is my growing list of her experience lies: (11+ / 0-)

    I'm trying to make it comprehensive, so let me know if I'm miss any, I think I have all the big debunked ones, but I'm sure many will be added before this is over, as she seems to lie a lot.

  •  I don't think Obama needed to do it, BUT (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, jj32, Wary

    This criticism is based on an actual issues of substance, so I can't really complain.

    I do think he may have exaggerated once or twice on his own legislative record, so he needs to be careful with it.

    I was elected President of my Senior Class. I peaked.

    by greatn on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:12:56 PM PDT

    •  I really think he did have to do it. (8+ / 0-)

      He has to show that he can stand up and be strong in the face of attack.  Maybe it is for the undeclared Supers to show his electability.

      [this space intentionally left blank]

      by FXDCI on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:18:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He DOES need to do it (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlackGriffen, pat208, wargolem

      Because she's forced his hand by campaigning so nastily the past few weeks and months. She's too much of a threat to go soft on her now.

    •  well (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eman, BlackGriffen, wishingwell, Wary

      I definitely think it needed to be said, and hopefully the media will keep "vetting" her, because she needs it.

      I've noticed that some like to compare Obama apparently overstating his involvement in immigration reform once or twice (and Ted Kennedy himself praised Obama on this) to Hillary's pathological lying about her record, the foundation of her entire campaign and her attacks against Obama. There is no comparison. Obama isn't running on his involvement on the immigration legislation, and he has plenty of other legislative achievements to fall back on (not to mention I've yet to see any proof that Obama didn't help Kennedy with it, Kennedy seems to think he did).

      So basically I think it is a safe line of attack, because Hillary is the serial liar here, and her entire campaign has depended on the media not calling her on her lies.

      •  heh you may not like the title but back in FEB (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I posted THIS diary.  Maybe i was a bit harsh, but now we see it comming to light and oh my!  I was right on the button.  I used to love the Clintons, but i would rather build the party than destroy it.  Every time she attacks Barack it is "vetting" and when Obama strikes back it is "demeaning".  When she uses republican tactics mailing out fliers and commercials based on fear mongering, it is "the kitchen sink option" when Obama mails out fliers that are based on the facts, it is a "play from Karl Rove's playbook".  

        She has shown her true colors, and sadly some like at MYDD are to drunk on the kool-aid to notice it.

        thank god that Washington, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, MLK, and every president during the Cold War dared to Hope for a Change. Change and America are synonymous...

        by wargolem on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:21:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  They brought up his "exagerrations "on MSNBC (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eman, wishingwell, Wary, Neon Mama

      and they were shown to be not all that scandalous. Otherwise you would have expected Hillary to make hay out them by now. When you can't get someone on the issues or their record, you go after their friends. And when that fails, you go after their family. and when that doesn't work, you go after their religion. The Clintons have nowhere else to go, that's why they tried to rejuvenate the Rev Wright issue. In the process, they opened their own claims to scrutiny. And when you are looking for a Clinton lie, it isn't a very long trip.

      "I'm not against all wars. I'm against dumb wars." Barack Obama

      by DWKING on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:29:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  About damn time! (17+ / 0-)

    What experience?  I've been asking that for months.  Why is the press giving Hillary a free pass?

    •  Because they want her to have the nomination (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, lgmcp, Wary, jds1978, haruki

      and lose to McCain.

      It's the establishment media's script.

      "...And I woulda got away with it, if it hadn't been for that meddling Kos!" ---attributed to Tom DeLay

      by AdmiralNaismith on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:21:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Arrghhh (8+ / 0-)

        it is so frustrating.  Every time she talks about her experience an angel gets run over by gas truck!

      •  Media does want Clinton to win (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        BECAUSE for years now as we all know, the Republicans have waited and planned on running AGAINST Clinton to WIN against her!

        has anyone noticed how those same Republicans like old Joe Scarborough and Pat Buchanan, and several others have now said that it is Clinton they FEAR most---a direct contradiction to all these years of saying they WANTED to run against her!

        Now, why have they changed their tune?

        My theory feeding into her EGO--after they say that, they encourage her to FIGHT it ALL the way to the Convention--and Pat warned her today that in going to the Convention she should NOT attack Obama BUT just make her case---yeah, right BECAUSE old Pat KNOWS how destructive that would be to the Democratic party AND he knows he's feeding the old Clinton EGO to do just that!

        Pat told Clinton to 'take Obama' out, and she's doing just that!!! She listens to everything the Republicans tell her because they feed into her ego and sad to say she BELIEVES them--she BELIEVES they 'FEAR HER" in an election, she REALLY Believes them!

        "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

        by Wary on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:13:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Bah they want her to win because (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        they have had 8 years to prepare for her running, and have a closet full of shit to throw at her.  Listen to Hannity during the daytime when he brings up Clinton's closet full of skeletons.  Do not decieve yourself one bit, they have plenty on her just waiting to be run on the day she becomes the nominee.

        Conversely Obama-mania caught the GOP with their pants down and they are trying to dig dirt on him, but the most they can get is that he attends a Christian church and gives money to that church.  What a devestating blow!  LOL What they fail to realize is that the majority of Southern Christians are moderate and simply LEAN to the right, and McCain LEANS to the left.  Obama attending a Fire and Brimstone sermon is simply one more reason not to vote McCain and will actually help with Christians who are not just out right racist.

         I was so surprised this weekend at church when several of the older men were saying "you know that Obama guy is getting a lot of flak for going to that radical church?" and another old man simply said "Well black churches have always embraced the Holy spirit more than we do, and i actually am happy to know he ain't no Muslim"  I stayed out of that conversation and listened and they were not negative a bit about Obama, rather more accepting of the "persecution that we as Christians will face from the enemies of God".  Their words not mine.

        thank god that Washington, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, MLK, and every president during the Cold War dared to Hope for a Change. Change and America are synonymous...

        by wargolem on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:28:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Ouch... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, Wary, Sagebrush Bob

    Yea, Obama going, "Senator, you seem to have a lot of mistatements about your record. Could you clarify just exactly what you have done to prove that you're ready?"

    It is this simple. Vote Republican- Iraq is Forever. Vote Democratic- Iraq is history.

    by RElland on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:13:41 PM PDT

  •  chelsea has really ruined her career (15+ / 0-)

    she would have been wise to be a rebellious daughter this season.  now i will never consider voting for her in her 2028 run for the presidency.  

    the only one in that family i would consider now would be Sox, since he is estranged from the others.

    Politics is not arithmetic. It's chemistry.

    by tamandua on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:13:47 PM PDT

    •  I will never, ever forget (11+ / 0-)

      her clairvoyance barb.

      To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

      by discocarp on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:16:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Don't worry about Chelsea (7+ / 0-)

      she is cashing in on the Clinton name at a Hedge fund.

      She probably makes millions and does diddly.

      •  Chelsea has been forced to support a lie (0+ / 0-)

        out of parental loyalty. Well to a certain extent that is understandable.  She seems to be forever tied to the parents and seems to have no ethics of her own.  She is , I think, twenty eight years old, and coming out and supporting an obvious lie on the part of her parents.  Means nothing to her, obviously.  She also is a victim of her  parents as her reputation has been sullied, as per her own willingness to do so.  What the hell does she care?  She is set up for life and has nothing to worry about.  Unless of course, she plans to run for some office in the future. And if she does, she is already toast, thanks to her parents.

    •  Back when asshole was running for reelection, I (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wary, novaseeker

      wrote a snarky essay entitled "Free the Bush Twins" which got a bit of attention at mistake, as I also submitted it to a respectable print org which wanted to publish it, except that I'd already put it out there on the internets.

      Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by darthstar on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:21:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  She's got a good career ahead of her (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wary, novaseeker

      She's been supportive of her Mom but she has always been clean and gracious about it.

      If she wants to go into politics I'd welcome her into the House, I'd donate even.

      I was elected President of my Senior Class. I peaked.

      by greatn on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:26:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not so gracious when... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        an Italian restaurant in NYC posted Chelsea's photo on their wall and they were threatened with legal action.  She won't run for public office as she knows she can make more at her hedge fund as "the daughter of Hillary and Bill Clinton" which in our twisted society is quite a meal ticket.  

        "Someday a real rain will come and wash all the scum away."

        by Travis Bickle on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:36:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Let's leave Chelsea alone please (0+ / 0-)

          for she cannot help who her parents are.  Hedge funds don't buy love or friendships.

          •  No, she did not choose her parents (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            417els, wargolem, Travis Bickle

            But she has chosen to support their dirty tricks and lies.  She is not any longer the twelve year old protected child of the Clintons as she once was.  She is an adult, when many of us were, at her age,birthing and raising two or more children, realizing the future for them as a way out of considering only ourselves.  She, the no longer twelve year old, picked on by the Rush Limbaugh screeds, has shown that she fully supports the lies of her parents.

          •  Chelsea is a grown-up now, out campaigning... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wargolem, Travis Bickle

            She's hitting colleges as though she's just another one of the average kids.  She is not and never has been one of them.

            The shy, sheltered little 15 year-old is gone.  There is no reason to hold her to a lesser standard than anyone else out stumping.

            A single child reared by two clever egomaniacs may turn into a not so charming, precious adult; there's no reason to exempt her.  Possibly, there may have been a time when GDub was not the loathsome person he is today, but it would excuse nothing.

            "Evil is a lack of empathy, a total incapacity to feel with their fellow man." - Capt. Gilbert,Psychiatrist, at the end of Nuremberg trials.

            by 417els on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:57:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Chelsea should leave US alone (0+ / 0-)

            "Mom, don't put me in the position where I am supposed to back up your lie.  I have a life, too, and my word is worth something to me, even if yours is worth nothing to you."

            Politics is not arithmetic. It's chemistry.

            by tamandua on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 09:07:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I Would Hope Bush Ruined That (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jds1978, Neon Mama, discocarp, novaseeker

      Haven't we learned our lesson about dynasties yet? We need to keep the political/ruling class permeable to/mixing with the common people, else we'll be stuck with a de facto monarchy and the inevitable idiot sons.

  •  It's time to put a stake in the heart of the (8+ / 0-)

    monster that is the "Clintons". As IndianaDemocrat has said we created it, we nurtured it and protected it, now it's time to put an end to it once and for all.

    Sarcasm: It beats killing people...

    by Dreggas on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:13:54 PM PDT

  •  The Tonya Harding meme now spreading through (34+ / 0-)

    the media is also devastating to her. She is finally reaping what she has sown.

    I know. But I do not approve. And I am not resigned. -Edna St. Vincent Millay

    by StrangeAnimals on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:13:57 PM PDT

  •  will this have any repercussions (0+ / 0-)

    for obama? he has slightly exaggerated his experience as well. Not to the extent of clinton but he does have a couple of similar exaggerations.

    •  The ones that Hillary is smearing him on (10+ / 0-)

      seem pretty minor to me.  I'm sure there are more, but somewhere today I read that she's slammed him for claiming to be a "professor" instead of "lecturer", and for claiming that his parents fell in love in 1965, when he was born in 1961.

      Those hardly seem on par with her exaggerations.

      And he's not running his campaign claiming he's best to lead this country based on when his parents got together.

      •  you're not serious, are you? (10+ / 0-)

        She's busting him about nit picky things like that?

        •  Remember the Kindergarden Essay? (13+ / 0-)

          Don't think there is a place the Clintons wont go, there isn't.

        •  Yes, Yes she is nt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Sarcasm: It beats killing people...

          by Dreggas on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:33:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Hey, do you have any idea (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jds1978, Neon Mama, Joe Beese, orangeuglad

          how many rocks they had to crawl under to find that stuff? Sending those Rev Wright tapes to the media was all they had left. Now they are out of ammo and out of money. She says they will be in this for three months. I give 'em more like three weeks.

          "I'm not against all wars. I'm against dumb wars." Barack Obama

          by DWKING on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:35:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The Clintons are the King and Queen of nitpicking (0+ / 0-)

          Consider this Corrente response to Bill's perjury...

          << For your information, committing perjury is not the same as not telling the whole truth under oath. Perjury is a very specific crime, and the only way to determine whether perjury has been committed is through a trial...</p>

          And I’m not splitting hairs.

          The reason our legal code makes this distinction is that the law itself is rather a crude instrument, and unless the information that is lied about or not fully answered is relevant to the matter at hand, it is not considered perjury.

          There is no doubt that in his deposition in the Paula Jones lawsuit, Bill Clinton was quite a bit less than forthcoming. But neither were his interlocutors. >>

          "Hillary Clinton's original description of her arrival at Tuzla airport in Bosnia was vivid and thrilling and entirely at variance with what really happened."

          by Joe Beese on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:20:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Found It (0+ / 0-)

          Yeah, unfortunately, I'm serious.  It was in today's New York Times.

          Here's the quote:

          Mrs. Clinton’s campaign responded with an e-mail catalog of Mr. Obama’s "exaggerations and misstatements." The campaign cited his saying that he was a law professor — he was a senior lecturer — and that his parents fell in love because of the historic 1965 civil rights march in Selma, Ala., even though he was born in 1961. He later said he was referring broadly to the civil rights movement.

          And here's the link:

          Clinton Seeks to Soften Impact of Misstatement

      •  ya i remember hearing on abrams about (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wary, jds1978

        the professor versus Professor dispute. that was bout the stupidest thing ever. it seems like everything else the clintons have done, reaching too far. there is that quote from dodd out there about an obama exaggeration but when you add the other trivial stuff people stop caring about any legitimate point.

        •  abrams is a Looo zer (0+ / 0-)

          Loser is what Abrams is. I can not stand the guy, and even if his panel disagrees with him he does and says what HE wants to say. He is a clinton pundit.

          thank god that Washington, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, MLK, and every president during the Cold War dared to Hope for a Change. Change and America are synonymous...

          by wargolem on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:13:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  He never claimed "Professor" that I can find (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlackGriffen, Wary, jds1978, orangeuglad

        Unless someone has it elsewhere, I've never heard either the Senator or any of his staff claim that he was a professor.  He was an instructor at U of C.

        His bio page has this:

        ...He went on to earn his law degree from Harvard in 1991, where he became the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. Soon after, he returned to Chicago to practice as a civil rights lawyer and teach constitutional law...

        He doesn't even bother to mention where he teaches constitutional law.  If he had wanted to PUFF his resume the way Clinton has, he would have said, "...Professor at University of Chicago."

      •  It's very possible... (0+ / 0-)

        that his parents did fall in love 4 years after he was born! ;)

        •  He was around 6 when they moved to Indonesia to (0+ / 0-)

          be with the only man he actually knew as a father...the biological father of his sister Maya.  He may well have been referencing 'my parents' in that context.

          "Evil is a lack of empathy, a total incapacity to feel with their fellow man." - Capt. Gilbert,Psychiatrist, at the end of Nuremberg trials.

          by 417els on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:10:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  As I noted in another thread (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishingwell, Libby Shaw, Neon Mama
        people who consider this an exaggeration don't really understand academia.  Professor is both a title for someone who teaches at a university and a very specific position at a university.  Many high powered journalists, entrepreneurs, politicians, writers, artists, etc. have lecturer positions at top universities.  Most universities require a PhD or equivalent for someone to become a tenured professor.  In many fields that isn't appropriate.  Often not appropriate for part timers, either.
      •  One pundit type did point out that SMALL P (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        417els, wargolem

        professor is as accurate as lecturer.  I have to agree that we used "professor" and/or "prof" for all our college teachers.  I never called ONE a "lecturer."  

        Now, when they were LATE FOR CLASS, we respected the rules about waiting proper length of time before jumping ship.  Full Professor, if I recall correctly, was given 15 minutes of grace. It was the only time we cared.

        De fund + de bunk = de EXIT--->>>>>

        by Neon Mama on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:51:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If this is all the Clintons have, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Neon Mama

          I am feeling like the fat lady is warming up...  if this is all they have she may be about to tune up.  I mean arguing whether or not someone capitalized the P in professor.  Compare that to whether or not someone actually took sniper fire??!?!?!

          thank god that Washington, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, MLK, and every president during the Cold War dared to Hope for a Change. Change and America are synonymous...

          by wargolem on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:20:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  That stuff is all thin gruel (4+ / 0-)

      served with weak tea.

      Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

      by bumblebums on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:20:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Like what? (6+ / 0-)

      He did teach constitutional law at the University of Chicago. My mother taught legislation at the University of Santa Clara Law School and my husband taught journalism at Penn State. Neither Obama, my mother or my husband were tenure track faculty. But they were absolute faculty members. My husband at the time he was teaching was also a senior reporter for the local paper. The chair of the communications department at Penn State asked him many time to consider teaching a class.

      But let's check and see what the University of Chicago has to say.
      Obama's FACULTY webpage

      And from the Univeristy of Chicago FACULTY blog

      Now that the school year is well underway, it might be worth noting that a new book is about to appear from a member of the faculty. But against all odds, his last name isn't Posner (though the Judge and the Professor do have recent books out). It's Obama.

      There is a lot to say about Senator Obama and his time at the University of Chicago Law School. (He remains affiliated with the law school, and he has an office on the fifth floor -- though the list of faculty members notes, in a way that seems at once proud and forlorn, that he is now "out of residence.") He was, and is, widely admired by students and faculty alike -- and entirely across political divisions. How well I remember past elections in which faculty members, who disagreed on a great deal, agreed that Obama would be a magnificent addition to the United States Congress. I think their agreement resulted from Obama's character (he's a genuinely wonderful guy), his evident ability and sheer excellence (for example, he's a terrific teacher, and we tried to convince him to join the faculty full-time on several occasions), and his independence and unpredictability (he toes no party line; he knows how markets work, and how government can make things worse).

      My mother was always called Professor. My husband's students called him Professor.

    •  Obama never made "experience" his quality (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wary, jds1978

      as much as "judgment".

      She voted for the war.

      by Inland on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:06:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Esp. troubling about HRC's actions is (16+ / 0-)

    that she seem to rely a whole lot on things that nobody can be expected to see, like actions and roles inside the Clinton admin. (outside the official org chart, all of it) or on a tarmac in Bosnia.

    What little material we have that would corroborate any of that sort of claim is either a) being withheld by Bill Clinton, who won't release his admin's documents or b) actually contrary to her story.  Her schedule is the only document we have, for example, on her claims on being a huge player in the Clinton admin.  What did it show? Mostly the usual first lady stuff and some meetings FOR nafta.

    We're basically asked to take her word on ALL this shit.  ALL of it.  The fact that ANY of it is shown to be an exaggeration is death to her claims.  

    To me, it reminds me of W's claim that we don't and will never know all the great things he's done to keep us safe from terror.  Really convenient, esp. since what we can see shows incompetence and worse.

    She voted for the war.

    by Inland on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:14:27 PM PDT

    •  Why do you think those documents (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eman, BlackGriffen, Wary, mudgod, MizKit

      won't be released? They'd prove she is nothing but a liar, again.

      Sarcasm: It beats killing people...

      by Dreggas on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:15:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And where are her tax returns?? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eman, jds1978, makanda
    •  She NEVER had a security clearance (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlackGriffen, Buffalo Girl, Neon Mama

      when Bill served in the White House, so if she was involved in any substantive conversations within the White House (doubtful from her schedule), her presence would have been in violation of US Law and procedures.

      However, her role on "The Spouse Bus" is well documented.

    •  I think this is really inherent to "First Lady" (0+ / 0-)

      status.  An involved spouse does a lot, hears a lot, influences a lot, that is never on the record and can never be allowed to be on the record.  Some folks profess outrage about such potential involvement, but I personally -- during Bill Clinton's administration -- liked it.  With Laura Bush or Nancy Reagan, well, not so much so, though I suppose their counsel however uninformed is unlikely to have been any worse than what their spouses would come to unassisted.

      In other words, wifing really IS experience, but not defined as legitimate experience.  And that IS a feminist issue, whether HRC is a good candidate or not.  

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:33:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That doesn't tell me anything. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Neon Mama

        An involved spouse does a lot, hears a lot, influences a lot, that is never on the record and can never be allowed to be on the record.

        Well, that's meaningless to me.  

        Once again, it's somewhat distressing that HRC's entire call of "experience" is based on something which, by definition, nobody can ever know because it's entirely in the orbit of advising the president outside of things like witnesses. Her qualities are entirely based on what she says and how she evaluates it.   But where we actually do have something that isn't just HRC and Bill telling us, it doesn't confirm her story.  She's not dodging bullets.  She's going to NAFTA meetings.  She's doing the usual first lady stuff.  

        She voted for the war.

        by Inland on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:41:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, I get that it is meaningless to you (0+ / 0-)

          and to many, perhaps most.  But I personally find it interesting and significant, that the realms of experience most available to women are defined as utterly (not even just somewhat) irrelevant.

          Try to let go of your Hillary animosity for just a minute to consider the larger issue  a tad dispassionately.  What ABOUT "pillow talk"?  What ABOUT "the power behind the throne"?  IS there any political experience, any familiarity with the exercises of power, in such a role?  I submit that the answer is, it varies greatly.  Hence my opener, an "involved" spouse.  

          "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

          by lgmcp on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:45:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

            It's the language you use to describe her function that's meaningless.  It simply doesn't SAY anything.  

            But I personally find it interesting and significant, that the realms of experience most available to women are defined as utterly (not even just somewhat) irrelevant.

            Well, I fid it interesting that we have to assume something significant in the role of the spouse because actual visible forms of experience "aren't available".   Of course, they ARE available, and even if they weren't, it's no excuse to somehow buff what IS available.  

            Looks to me like the only person who is making a decision on "what's available" is HRC: she's been first lady, so suddenly first lady is heckava lot of experience.  That seems to be the only part of this that isn't coincidental.  Like winning Ohio, being first lady is important because it's pointing to her and nobody else.  Very convenient.

            She voted for the war.

            by Inland on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:57:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're not getting it. (0+ / 0-)

              I'm not talking about Hillary.  I'm talking about the role of all First Ladies everywhere, and saying, isn't that an interesting limbo that they are in.   Let go of your mono-mania for a second, will ya.

              "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

              by lgmcp on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:59:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I should say not. (0+ / 0-)

                I'm talking about the role of all First Ladies everywhere, and saying, isn't that an interesting limbo that they are in.  

                Well, it's only interesting when one of them feels compelled to cite being first lady to as experience making her ready on day one.  It does take it quite out of the ordinary.  I'm sure some first ladies have power because they have the ears of her husband.  HRC's claiming something completely different.  

                She voted for the war.

                by Inland on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:05:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You just can't do it, can you? (0+ / 0-)

                  You can't consider the issue, which just MIGHT have some complexities, including and beyone "the ears" of a husband, in the absence of your un-favorite example. This Obama supporter suggests that inability to detach from personal animosity is a dangerous form of unwisdom.

                  "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

                  by lgmcp on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:08:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well. A married female without children can be (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    a very involved and influential aunt.  But that does not make her a 'mother'.

                    "Evil is a lack of empathy, a total incapacity to feel with their fellow man." - Capt. Gilbert,Psychiatrist, at the end of Nuremberg trials.

                    by 417els on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:18:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  True (and thank you for addressing actual point) (0+ / 0-)

                      but she does have a certain level of familiarity with children ... and perhaps, if the "real" mother is absent or neglectful or merely very very close to and reliant on the aunt, a figure equally or more influentual than "mom".

                      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

                      by lgmcp on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:24:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  HRC is making an extraordinary claim (0+ / 0-)

                    beyond being your normal first lady; she's claiming to be ready on day one in a way that Obama wouldn't be, due largely to that role.  If you want to blame my being an Obama supporter for actually wanting something to back that up before I accept it to be true, I think you might be confusing cause and effect.

                    She voted for the war.

                    by Inland on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:54:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  OK, if for the sake of argument we agree to say (0+ / 0-)

                      that Hillary sucks and is totally unqualified, could we THEN take a few seconds to discuss that First Ladies are both included and excluded in a (so far) very gender-specific way?  I suppose it will surprise you to find that I too am an Obama supporter, but such is in fact the case.  Except that I make a practice of trying to see most sides of every question -- which perhaps in your view makes me a traitor to the cause.

                      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

                      by lgmcp on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:03:58 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't care about First ladies that much. (0+ / 0-)

                        Until one said that it was experience that qualified her to be president, I never cared what role they played.  They are just one of several people the president may, or may not, listen to, until somebody said it made her ready on Day One.  

                        She voted for the war.

                        by Inland on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:10:14 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  my stance is simple and one that was used on SNL. (0+ / 0-)

                          Tracy said it best,
                          "If being a wife counted as experience for a job the Robin Givens would be Heavyweight Champion of the World."

                          MuuuuuHaHaHaHa.. sorry wait im composed now.... Yes i see your point, but in no real way can you quantify that experience gain. Yes a woman may know more lingo/jargon of the Job  ANY JOB, but that does not make them qualified to DO the job.  Unless that person does the actual job, then why should we as a race/people/nation/insert your group here grant resume status for being related to someone or someone's spouse.

                          My father has been a sheriff in Alabama for 25 years, does that make me a good Cop?  No, it does mean i know more than your average bear about the inner working of the Sheriff's Department here, but whether or not i would be a good law enforcement officer is questionable due to my lack of having the actual weight of office on my own shoulders.

                          Sorry to sound sexist or whatever you want to label me but i tried to offer a reasonable example that directly relates to this subject using myself. I will however grant you this much, yes she probably knows what makes a good leader and i probably know what makes a good sheriff, but in no way would i quantify it as a talking point to run on.

                          thank god that Washington, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, MLK, and every president during the Cold War dared to Hope for a Change. Change and America are synonymous...

                          by wargolem on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:44:07 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

      •  Ergo, Nancy Pelosi's husband (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        should step in when she's on vacation and serve as Acting Speaker of the House.

        Sen Feinstein's husband should run & win easily if/when the Senator retires.

        Maggie Thatcher's husband was qualified to be British PM.

        I say baloney to all that.

        •  Ma Ferguson, Indira Ghandi ... (0+ / 0-)

          wouldn't be the first time.  But my discussion is not prescriptive, it is interrogative.  I'm asking people to pause and ponder the underlying dynamics, not to spout a canned yes-or-no answer.

          "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

          by lgmcp on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:48:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Start with the lack of a security clearance ... (15+ / 0-)

    ... as First Lady.  How can she possibly say that she was involved in key national security decisions without a security clearance?

    The doctor said I wouldn't have so many nose bleeds if I kept my finger outta there. - Ralph Wiggum

    by jim bow on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:14:54 PM PDT

    •  If not for her neocon ideology, (0+ / 0-)

      I'd say that Condi Rice would make a great foreign policy president.  She has all the experience that Hillary is falsely claiming she herself has.

      "Some men see things as they are and say 'Why?' I dream things that never were and say, 'I need to quit drinking!'" - Greasy Grant

      by Greasy Grant on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:20:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Uh....sure. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Neon Mama

        Any decisions she's made at the State Department have turned out SO well for America.

        "...And I woulda got away with it, if it hadn't been for that meddling Kos!" ---attributed to Tom DeLay

        by AdmiralNaismith on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:23:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry for being unclear. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AdmiralNaismith, lgmcp

          A Democrat with the same resume as Condi Rice but without the Bush/Cheney baggage would have the credentials to be Commander in Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces.  Hillary's resume doesn't even approach Condi Rice's in terms of the levels of government served.  I'd still vote for HRC over Rice because of ideology and policy proposals (out of Iraq, etc.).

          "Some men see things as they are and say 'Why?' I dream things that never were and say, 'I need to quit drinking!'" - Greasy Grant

          by Greasy Grant on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:31:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Hit her again, harder! harder! Go Obama! (4+ / 0-)
  •  So much for all her talk about being fully vetted (11+ / 0-)

    and Obama not being fully vetted.

    Better to have her exposed now than in a GE against the Republicans.

    •  Bill was vetted, she was not... (4+ / 0-)

      Part of the problem with her "campaign" (using the word very loosely).

      They still can't decide if Hillary is running or if the HillBillys are running as a team.

      Hillary's "experience" (other than that borrowed from her husband) has never been vetted until now.

      Bosnia=LIE (covered by more lies)
      Northern Ireland=LIE

      Yet to be vetted:
      Peter Paul
      Tax Returns
      Foundation Donors
      Senate Earmarks

      •  That Bill, himself, still considers himself to be (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        the Big Dog is apparent just watching him speaking on the campaign circuit.  Not long ago I objected to the use of 'Billary', but a rose is a rose by any other name.

        I am so disappointed in both of them.  It feels bad to lose respect for people you once admired.

        "Evil is a lack of empathy, a total incapacity to feel with their fellow man." - Capt. Gilbert,Psychiatrist, at the end of Nuremberg trials.

        by 417els on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:27:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Sigh. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lgmcp, wargolem, beltane, dagnabbit, novaseeker

    Well, its substantive, and based in fact, so I guess its fair game. And she would certainly do it to him if she could.

    But I still hate to see it. Its pretty clear not much good will come out of an extended primary fight at this point.

  •  So sad. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hilllady, TennesseeGurl, novaseeker

    She didn't have to do this.

    It was so frustrating watching what happened to Al Gore and hearing that so many people still believe that media narrative was true. In Hillary's case, it is so much worse, because of YouTube, but also because her claims in Bosnia are so over the top that late night comedians will never be short for material again.

  •  it isnt going away (11+ / 0-)

    This is staying on the front page and is being discussed by everyone.  I don't think that the article by Carl Bernstein in the NY Times about "Hillary's Candor Gap" has been mentioned yet, but when just about every pundit on the left and the right has weighed in and found Clinton's "sleep deprivation" and "only human" explanations wanting, then there is a potentially large blow to her chances, and even moreso, the problem of general election electability.  Her refusal to continue to answer any questions about it are going to haunt her through the rest of the primary season and will be come her true legacy.

    louise 'hussein' to you!

    by louisev on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:15:19 PM PDT

    •  can you provide a link please (0+ / 0-)

      I do not know what you are talking about and would like to check it out.

      thank god that Washington, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, MLK, and every president during the Cold War dared to Hope for a Change. Change and America are synonymous...

      by wargolem on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:48:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hillary is NOT a serial exaggerator!!! (9+ / 0-)

    "Exaggerator" is such a big and ugly word to use for a former first lady...She's a serial liar.

    And let's not forget THIRTY FIVE YEARS of experience...okay, maybe that IS an exagerration and not a sue me.

    Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

    by darthstar on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:15:55 PM PDT

  •  WERE Gore's few comments ill-advised? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    How many millions of words must someone speak before saying a phrase that is open to potential misinterpretation by those determined to find fault?

    I don't mean to say that Gore was, or is, perfect - quite the contrary.  I mean to say, that NO ONE can get through a grueling career in public life without imperfection.  

    Obama's been on a roll.  But eventually he'll get tripped up too, over some meaningless triviality or other.  We'll forgive him and excuse him, as we should.  But let's give even candidates we DON'T like a few passes -- within reason, of course.

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:16:21 PM PDT

  •  This will be what does her in (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    beltane, Virginian in Spain

    You've got multiple examples of lies and gross exaggerations coming together at the same time, and it is going to sink her.

    It's dangerous to look forward more than a couple of days in this race, but think about how the NAFTA lie will play in central and western Pennsylvania when its combined with the Bosnia lie. This is going to kill her among white male voters, and none of Ed Rendell's magic will be able to put it back together again.

    •  The NAFTA lie (4+ / 0-)

      should bite her in Pennsylvania.

      •  It should have bit her in Ohio. (2+ / 0-)

        How convenient that none of her records were released until afterwards.

        Sarcasm: It beats killing people...

        by Dreggas on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:36:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I wish that were more talked about here in PA (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eman, Virginian in Spain

        and by the media as NAFTA is despised here, pure hatred for it.

        We need some help in PA to keep this election close on April 22nd. We need to limit Hillary's win to 10 pct or less if possible. As the media is all ready saying she needs by close to 20 pct for it to be a big win. ..or even we need  to keep her win to single digits if at all possible.

        This is the Silly Season of Politics-Barack Obama

        by wishingwell on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:40:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Be patient. (5+ / 0-)

          We've still got a month before primary day in Pennsylvania. Going on the attack now would risk allowing it to run itself out long before people vote.

          The Obama campaign needs Hillary's lie about NAFTA to be a big issue in the last days before voting, and it will be best if the attack comes from outside the Obama campaign. The smart way to play this is for the union's backing Obama to blanket central and western PA with ads on this starting no more than ten days before the vote.

          I'll be amazed if that doesn't happen. This is a tee ball for the SEIU and the other unions supporting Obama, and it neutralizes Clinton's union support. I'll be surprised if the ad time hasn't already been bought and the mailers aren't ready for the printer.

        •  i have a link for you to get it talked about... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wishingwell, makanda

          My ICQ group message board i posted all the links to PA newspapers, PA blogs, and PA radio stations.  Don't whine about it not being talked about fire off emails to the editors of 20 or so of those newspapers and radio stations and if enough people spam them with the info they HAVE to respond to it.  Letters to the editor are NOT limited to the population where the paper is printed, so send letters to the editor and the majority of 35-80 year old male demographic reads the letters to the editor.

          thank god that Washington, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, MLK, and every president during the Cold War dared to Hope for a Change. Change and America are synonymous...

          by wargolem on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:51:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Left right combo puts her on the canvas... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RobertInWisconsin, Joe Beese

    Tuzla embellishment and further Wright commentary to Richard Scaife about not picking a pastor that she and her husband exploited during Blowjobgate is the knockdown.  Will Dean and the hierarchy finally call bullshit and count her out? All momentum gone from her campaign and her image completely destroyed.  Hopefully, this awful week will make PA close and NC the blowout that forces her hand.

    "Someday a real rain will come and wash all the scum away."

    by Travis Bickle on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:16:34 PM PDT

  •  YouTube may turn out to be the #1 (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, lgmcp, 417els, Sagebrush Bob, BDsTrinity

    technological innovation of the 21st Century, as it makes what they really said and did available the day politicians try to illustrate their strengths.  No more 'who can convincingly tell the biggest whopper' as a campaign methodology.  Karl Rove still has the 'whopper' franchise, but Hillary and Bill are bidding for the Dem version of it.

    Conservatism is a function of age - Rousseau
    I've been 19 longer'n you've been alive - me

    by watercarrier4diogenes on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:17:36 PM PDT

  •  Gloves are off now (6+ / 0-)

    If Clinton had any hopes of retaining a positive image on which to run again someday, she's going to see those hopes crushed now. If she had been running a positive campaign like Edwards in '04, then the Obama crowd would take it easy on her with this issue. As it is, she's backed them into such a corner that they have no choice but to crush her with this issue.

    When they're done with her, she'll be lucky to win her Senate seat back for another term, let alone get anyone to listen to her Presidential ambitions. It's sad, but she's brought this on herself.

  •  I think you're right. (13+ / 0-)

    This is the narrative that will stick, and it's going to cloud every statement she makes from now on.  Fact checking Clinton will be the new favorite hobby of journalists everywhere.

    My candidate voted to ban the use of cluster bombs on kids. Did yours?

    by clonecone on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:17:49 PM PDT

    •  It will stick (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and we need to make sure, though we oppose HRC, that the media will be as unforgiving with McCain and his 20+ year record of more than a whopper or two, too.  Speaking of which, I wonder if McCain even knows about YouTube.  

  •  Can we not call her a liar? (4+ / 0-)

    I mean, that's just too reminiscent of schoolyard name-calling. Liar liar, pants on fire.

    Can we just say she's uncomfortable with the truth?

    And for good reason. The truth--the cold, hard facts--are that she has already lost the race for the nomination.

    The truth--the cold, hard facts--is that she was on the receiving end of flowers, not sniper fire, in Tuzla.

    We've already had eight years of non-reality based community in the White. We need someone more comfortable with the truth.

    I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. -- Thomas Carlyle

    by Jsn on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:17:52 PM PDT

    •  if we're telling the truth (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eman, wishingwell, Jsn, mudgod

      it starts with this.

      She lied.  She didn't "misspeak".  She lied.  Multiple times.  And has about multiple subjects.

      There's a gut, visceral reaction to the word "lie" or "liar" that her camp would most definitely like to avoid, no doubt, but we've got to be honest all-around.

      The sooner somebody in the MSM calls this "lying" the better for the public discourse, imo.

      •  That's pretty much my point... (0+ / 0-)

        I agree with you when you say this:

        The sooner somebody in the MSM calls this "lying" the better for the public discourse, imo.

        But the thing is, we're NOT the MSM. We're the progressive phalanx of the Democratic Party. And as Obama supporters, we've got to do the best job we can of channeling our candidate--i.e. more saddened than pissed-off by the evident self-destruction of Hillary's candidacy.

        Otherwise, the media narrative isn't about her. It's about "bickering Democrats".

        It is indeed accurate to call her a liar. It just isn't as damning as expressing our disappointment.

        I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. -- Thomas Carlyle

        by Jsn on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:14:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I like to reserve the word LIAR (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      for the right wing and Republicans, please. "Uncomfortable with the truth" is far better, IMHO.  HRC might not be telling us the truth but she sure as hell did not lie us into a war.... Let's save the LIAR label for McCain....

      •  I know how you feel. (0+ / 0-)

        And I felt that way too.  But I have found that when you're dealing with a liar, then just call Sniper Fire Clinton a liar.

        To a Democrat, "democracy" means "free elections." To a Republican, "free markets."

        by XOVER on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:16:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  speaking of McCain and war..... (0+ / 0-)

          Did you hear the one today where he claims that IRAN is the largest state sponsor of terror and if we pull out of iraq we will be letting IRAN win....

          welcome to planet WTFim-having-a-senior-momentPWND.

          thank god that Washington, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, MLK, and every president during the Cold War dared to Hope for a Change. Change and America are synonymous...

          by wargolem on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:56:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I am beginning to think (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, lgmcp

    the MSM and others were just waiting for something like this to be able to go after her without having to deal with what MSNBC dealt with wrt the Clintons going after them (not arguing who was right in that one).

    Sarcasm: It beats killing people...

    by Dreggas on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:18:13 PM PDT

  •  So wait a minute (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, wargolem, jds1978

    you mean she didn't come up with the name "The Super Bowl" for the AFL/NFL title game?

    And the movie Misery WASN'T based off of her experiences in the summer of 1973?

    But yes..

    she's lying about her experiences, at worst. She's exaggerating, at best.

    As a sleep deprived person myself, I have never quite lied like she did about Tuzla.

    "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

    by RBH on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:18:33 PM PDT

  •  The Bosnia C-17 pilot has spoken out (12+ / 0-)

    and his account damns Clinton.

    Everyone should circulate this and demand that the MSM begin covering it.

  •  "Facts are stubborn things" (10+ / 0-)

    So says Ted Kennedy when asked about Hillary's involvement with SCHIP.

  •  I wish... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, soms

    Clinton would have been able to run on what she has accomplished as a U.S. SENATOR and not as wife of a President.  

    That is not to say that being First Lady is not an important experience.  But wouldn't it be refreshing to see this campaign be all about what either candidate accomplished over the last few years as Senators and not the "everything but" strategy.  Just because all 3 remaining candidates (if you include McCain) were Senators doesn't mean that WHAT THEY'VE ACTUALLY DONE (or NOT done) as Senators isn't actually important.  Hope that makes sense...but I get a little tired when all we talk about is the Iraq vote.  An important vote, probably the most important in recent memory, but not the only one...

    •  The problem is, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eman, wishingwell, cleverblogname

      she NEVER accomplished anything. Not a thing. She had her go with health care, but couldn't handle it. She is a media celebrity construction, through-and-through.

      This, btw, is why she has not resigned from the race yet. It is just so humiliating for her to lose to this uppity guy. All her status and power in the jet set and in Hollywood banked on her being on the way to the White House again. She NEEDS an excuse for losing. She needs everybody around her to agree that this nomination was STOLEN from her, in some odd way or another.

      •  which brings us to the problem.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

         If she claims it was stolen from her, the Kool Aid Clinton fans will vow to never-ever vote for Barack, which puts his candidacy in jepardy.  She needs to bow out gracefully, or there will be a major break/split in the party.  Never the less i feel you hit the nail on the head.

        thank god that Washington, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, MLK, and every president during the Cold War dared to Hope for a Change. Change and America are synonymous...

        by wargolem on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 07:00:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not much as US Senator (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eman, wishingwell

      Her record is actually pretty pathetic.

  •  Your headline is wrong. It should read: (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, wishingwell, sam2300, soms, MizKit

    Clinton Campaign Demonstrates Clinton as Serial Exaggerator

  •  Im sorry but the twin Sniper in Bosnia.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    darthstar, jds1978

    and I Brought Peace to Northern Ireland pieces of bullshit are too much.  Hillary, you know nothing about (northern 26+6=1) Ireland!  Stop it and stop pissing me off!

  •  Glad to see Obama is above it all... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, lgmcp, Melchuck29, novaseeker, sab39

    I'm sorry, but just like it's terrible for HRC to try to tear him down and make him unelectable in the general, it's terrible for Obama to try to do the same.  This Tuzla business is not a response to an attack on him, i.e., legitimate self-defense, it's just jumping on a misstep and trying to tear her down over it.  And yes, she's done the same thing over and over and has no right to complain.  But still, he said this was not the way he wanted to play the game.  I knew that was unrealistic, but I'm sorry to see it nonetheless.

    •  Misstep, man I am surprised she can walk (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      with so many "missteps"

      Sarcasm: It beats killing people...

      by Dreggas on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:21:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think her experience claims as First Lady (0+ / 0-)

      should be fair game. This memo by Obama's campaign doesn't really "tear her down", but it does point out the growing list of exaggerations. Just a fact-check.

      by dagnabbit on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:27:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You'd rather he refuse to fight back? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, wargolem

      'Cause that worked so well for Kerry in 2004.

      And there's a big difference, in that Obama is actually going to be in the general election in November. Clinton won't. All she's doing is carrying McCain'ts water for him.

      "...And I woulda got away with it, if it hadn't been for that meddling Kos!" ---attributed to Tom DeLay

      by AdmiralNaismith on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:30:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There is an argument for fighting nice, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      when you are fighting a fellow democrat. But, at this point, Hillary is not a fellow democrat, but a 3rd contender putting herself above the party. Obama should go as hard against as he can without putting off her supporters that he will need after having clinched the nomination.

    •  Um, no... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      ...being above it all means swiftboating... going after someone's character with false, misleading, or tangential attacks...

      Attacking someone's record of "experience" is fair game and certainly sticking to the issues.  

      If he attacked her by alleging she killed Vince Foster or something unseemly as that is the kind of politics that Obama wants to avoid, but sticking to real issues is always fair game.

      Too bad the Hillary camp doesn't see it that way!

    •  Not the same (4+ / 0-)

      Clinton's attacks were dirty - praising McCain above all. Obama's just questioning the veracity of what she has REPEATEDLY claimed - and THAT is legitimate- who wants a serial liar for President AGAIN?

      •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Virginian in Spain

        Clinton's attacks are straight out of Rove's textbook.  Obama's attacks should stick to the experience and "misspeaking" issues, not the personal.  The Obama surrogate who used the Monica dress attack the other day makes Obama's campaign seem as low as Clinton's.  If Obama goes into Clinton's gutter, which is where she is trying to drag him, he won't be perceived as any better than she is.  

        HRC is doing everything she can to taunt and torment Obama.  She wants to yank his chain and pull him into the sewer alongside of her.  She is DYING to scream gottcha and then go running to the Supers and say, "see he is no better than me."  

    •  It's not a personal attack (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      It's attacking her credentials.  The crux of her campaign is her experience and he is questioning that.  

      Now if Obama used thinly veiled gender arguments or spread malicious rumors, THAT would be a personal attack, but he hasn't done that.

    •  When "experience" is THE issue you've made the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      cornerstone of your campaign, and the foundation of that claim is made of cards, it is key that your opponent point it out.

      That the Obama campaign hasn't pointed it out sooner speaks volumes for their restraint.

      We cannot have someone who distorts reality so blatantly in the White House. We're trying to get rid of someone just like that right now.

      This isn't dirt. This is a key issue in the campaign: honesty, character and transparency.

  •  Funny thing... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Melchuck29, Joe Beese

    I just heard a columnist from the LA Times on my PBS radio station at lunchtime trying to make the claim that the Clinton campaign was now gunning for the VP spot.  She asserted that the race for delegates now was all about trying to force Obama to put her on the ticket.

    At the rate she is self-destructing with these amateurish blunders, it sure doesn't look like a winning strategy.  

    I doubt the columnist's reasoning and conclusions.  If, however, Hillary really did want the VP spot, it would be much better to make nice with Obama now rather than try to leverage her way onto the ticket.  She's basically forcing his campaign to destroy her credibility in order to force her from the race.  It's a dumb move in any playbook.

  •  Why does that sound familiar? (0+ / 0-)

    Oh yes, that's what the Rs did to Gore back in 2000.

  •  I wish I knew how this was going to end (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, hilllady

    I wish I knew what would really get her to drop out.... Weeks more of this, I'm sure...

  •  It worked against Gore! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
  •  She appeared to be a confabulator.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    rather than an exaggerator.  I would say she was more akin to those with Korsakoff's syndrome...which is due to thiamine deficiency and often found in alcoholics.   You can say to one of these people: remember when yadda yadda yadda and they will say oh yes and continue on with the confabulated scenario.  Warm smiles, and inward nods as they/she "remembers" the event.

    But since she doesn't have the rest of the confabulatory syndrome (ie amnesia...does she?) then it could be just old fashioned lies comingled with great acting skills.

  •  serialously (0+ / 0-)

    If Obama just keeps bringing up the war vote and how we need to get rid of Bush-like candidates he will do fine.

    He doesn't need the heavy artillary. She's self-imploding.

    If we cannot elect this man, we don't deserve him.

    by lisastar on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:21:45 PM PDT

  •  The Republicans will wipe the "35 years of (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlackGriffen, LordMike, jds1978, Reckoner

    experience" and "ready on day 1" out, because, you know, their candidate actually has 35 years of experience [he seems to have consistently sided with terrorists throughout the that time, from Mozambique in the 1980's to Osama bin Laden just recently]

    •  No Kidding DL (0+ / 0-)

      ....Even if this sniper thing was true, how does that stack up against John McCain's experience eating Flak and SAM's over Vietnam?

      I don't think she is thinking very hard

      Too weird to live and too rare to die.

      by jds1978 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:31:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Are There Any Pages Left in Rove's Playbook?? (0+ / 0-)

    Hard to believe Democrats who lived through 2000 would consider doing this to another Democrat.

    Or maybe, just maybe, this idea came from the co-chair of Oregon Veterans for Bush, Obama's National Co-chair...

    Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

    by The Baculum King on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:22:17 PM PDT

  •  Hillary Is A Liar (19+ / 0-)

    I'm a Vietnam vet (Sgt. E-5).  I led an infantry squad in the Americal Division in 1969 in the northern sector of the country.  I'm not proud of my participation in that atrocity, but I can say with absolute certainty that Hillary Clinton has lied repeatedly about her flight into Bosnia.
    I can recall the sound of every bullet that came anywhere near me.  We used helicopters over there, but if I had come down in any type of aircraft doing 'evasive manuevers,' and then got shot at on the ground, I can assure you that the experience would be seared into my memory, with no fuzziness around the edges.  It would be crystal clear, and that was 39 years ago.  

    Hillary is flat out lying about her flight into Tuzla.  Her story that she 'mis-spoke' would be believable if she only said it once.  Anyone can slip up and be a little careless now and then.  But she is on videotape telling us the same story multiple times.  And, there is video of her standing there on the ground smiling after landing, doing a photo-op with children.

    When your life is threatened by rifle fire, adrenaline kicks in and the experience is something that you recall with precision and clarity.

    •  You are right, Hillary is a liar. (0+ / 0-)

      I didn't go to Viet Nam, and I did work for McGovern.  I never have had to face bullet fire, as those in the military who protect us, regardless of whether the government was right or wrong.
      For Hillary even to consider herself close to action is an insult to those who have been in battle.  She grew up in a well to do suburb outside of Chicago, nothing like the inner city.  She has been cloistered her entire life.  
      Her service begins and ends with campaigns.  Public service?  Self service.  
      Every American who has served or had family serve in the military should be insulted by her liberty with the truth.
      This sort of thing is what kept us in Viet Nam, brought us NAFTA, and gave us Iraq.  People who know nothing of war and true service.  People who use our democracy for their own gain.    

    •  I referred to you caliber of comment and (0+ / 0-)

      experience above in an effort to coax out Jim Webb.  Thanks for your story and service.

  •  When is depict just the truth (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, wishingwell

    I don't mind calling Clinton an outright liar.  She is.

  •  Engagement Politics (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, wishingwell

    What is striking about the HRC operation is the fact that they still have no idea why BO is doing so well with a majority of Dems. It is transparent, engagement with the potential nominee where we are like gamers who help Nintendo make a better game.

    HRC is the old school, build a fence around the brand, here it is, throw it over the fence and we are supposed to consume. We have been dealing with a bad govermental "product" for the past eight years. The BO style of personal engagement; legitimate and sincere engagement is the wave of the future.

    "you are the sum of who you know"

  •  Devastating. From further on in the memo: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RobertInWisconsin, Eman, yuppers

    The refrain that Senator Clinton "has the experience to lead on Day One" has been repeated endlessly since she entered the race. On closer inspection, the claims Senator Clinton makes turn out to be little more than stories.

    With the next primary less than a month away, it’s time for Senator Clinton to finally face the "vetting" she’s so fond of discussing. Badly trailing in delegates, votes, and states won, she’s going to need more than a new script to win the nomination. But if she wants to regain the trust of the American people, it would be a good place to start.

  •  At least shes been vetted. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jds1978, soms

    There are shelves of books at the library vetting the Clintons. I almost forgot how unelectable she will be. Revetting Hillary will be so easy I could do it.

    Hating the rest of the world for corp. profits when they ship my jobs overseas and evade taxes doesn't make my children any safer.

    by ghett on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:24:59 PM PDT

  •  Hillary is a LIAR (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, soms

    there is no other way to say it. She is not just a misleader she a down right intentional liar.

  •  And The Truth Shall Set Us All Free. Except HRC (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, wishingwell, soms

    Who continues to LIE.

    Obama '08 YES WE CAN
    God Bless America. God Damn George Bush

    by DFutureIsNow on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:26:39 PM PDT

  •  Gee, I don't hear "He's All Kumbaya" much anymore (12+ / 0-)

    The Chorus: "He's weak"
    "If he can't take on Hillary, how will he take on the Republicans?"
    "If he can't stand up to swiftboating, how will he get elected"
    "He's the Kumbaya candidate!"
    "I don't want 'Hope', I want a fighter!"
    "Snarf!  If he can't take a punch, how is he ever going to--"

    Obama:  SMACK!

    The Chorus:  "Oh, he's going negative!"
    "He's playing the race card!"
    "His surrogate is mean!"
    "He's playing the gender card!"
    "He's hitting back in a disproportional manner!"
    "I thought he was the 'Hope' guy!"
    "Kiss make better, mommy!"


    The Last Thing We Need is Democratic Convention 1968 Part II

    by LarsThorwald on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:26:47 PM PDT

  •  If there is one thing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Hillary Clinton needs to do, it is get out of the way.

    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction." --Blaise Pascal

    by lyvwyr101 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:27:05 PM PDT

  •  Here's what's sad (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DHinMI, Eman, wishingwell, jds1978, soms

    The fact that the media swallowed all her "fish stories", hook, line and sinkers, without any scrutiny whatsoever until recently.

    That, and not the fact that Hillary is indeed a serial liar, is what is truly sad.

  •  Will this be the silver bullet?? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kitebro, cleverblogname

    I hope this is the silver buller, the spike in the heart, the splash of holy water, the ray of sunlight, the dose of antibiotic, the shot of wheatgrass, or the chunk of exlax that rids this Presidential Primary of Hillary Clinton and her Poisonous Penn.  Let the abomination of her Rovian campaign end here.

    Cheers and Beers,the Wicked Witch is Dead!!!

    Or will she keep coming back like Jason of Hockey Mask fame and Chuckie??? We hope not.

    •  Hillary is a zombie. (0+ / 0-)

      The walking dead. I know how they bring them down in the movies. Figuratively, that is what it will take to end this.

      John McCain's biggest problem? When he opens his mouth, words come out.

      by kitebro on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:37:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not a silver bullet (0+ / 0-)

      since now she and her minions are going around claiming Obama is slinging mud and making personal attacks. Playing the victim is the new game.That's like Bush accusing another candidate as being uniformed on the issues. Sad but very maddening too.

      Hillary, are for or against debating? how long can it take to send someone down to Kinkos and copy your last 5 years of tax returns? do you have no shame? body armor? sniper cover? Irish luck? or even a shred of decency going to right wingers for help?

      Have a latte and head home...I promise it will all be good as rain before you realize it. And then you can tell bedtime stories to your future grandchildren how you were once president of the U.S. We promise not to post videos showing them your vicarious delusions or ability to take the experiences by osmosis from your husbands own life. That lie will be our little secret.

      Hillary kept touting her experience, but not what she learned from it. Perhaps its because all that sniper fire made her forget.

      by KingGeorgetheTurd on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:46:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  HRC Ready To Take Imaginary Sniper Fire On Day 1! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, Virginian in Spain, soms

    Obama '08 YES WE CAN
    God Bless America. God Damn George Bush

    by DFutureIsNow on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:29:21 PM PDT

  •  She's a liar. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, soms

    but "serial exaggerator" will do.

    Moreover, she has lied about NAFTA with great drama, and that will crucify her, to expand on the vernacular of her stooge James Carville.

    She's a grifter, con-artist phony.

    She's a phony.

  •  Not Exactly an Unprecedented Characterization nt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:29:58 PM PDT

  •  That old Clinton dishonesty... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, soms

    ...that's what we'll hear non-stop, if Clinton defies the math, from the Repug hit parade.

    All the bad memories from Bill's presidency will haunt Clinton now that she's opened the door. And make no mistake, it is she who opened the door.

  •  "My family's not big on quitting... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, wishingwell probably noticed that." -Bill Clinton, earlier today

    How was that not a Lewinsky reference?

    Only YOU can end the Metapocalypse. Join the mehvolution!

    by JR on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:31:43 PM PDT

  •  Best line about this so far... (5+ / 0-)

    The pilot of the plane that landed Hillary at Tuzla contradicted her acount and "not only weren't there any bullets flying, the base was so locked down that there wasn't even a bumblebee flying."

    "Someday a real rain will come and wash all the scum away."

    by Travis Bickle on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:32:05 PM PDT

  •  Concede (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RobertInWisconsin, soms

    Since Hillary refuses to concede an unwinnable race, she will have to be kicked out.  
    Obama has a stellar campaign going.  Would any other candidate been able to defeat the mighty Clinton machine?  Credit must be given to David Axelrod, Obama's chief strategist.  Remember, this race was supposed to be over by Super Tuesday, with Clinton as the nominee.  

    "The Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    by djbender on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:33:54 PM PDT

  •  Star Trek on exaggeration (5+ / 0-)

    (in a disbelieving tone, as Vulcans are supposed to be incapable of lying)
    Saavik: You lied.

    (in a very matter-of-fact tone, though self-righteous in its one-upsmanship)
    Spock: I exaggerated.

    We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan

    by CA Libertarian on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:34:33 PM PDT

  •  Baracks next few speeches (0+ / 0-)

    are gonna be doozies. I hope I get to hear them. This has only just begun.

    John McCain's biggest problem? When he opens his mouth, words come out.

    by kitebro on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:34:57 PM PDT

  •  I hate this. It shouldn't have come to this. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I understand why this has to happen. I understand that it was Hillary that dragged this into the gutter while Obama has tried so hard to elevate the debate, but I still hate it. We should not need to totally tear apart other Democrats to get to the best nominee.

    I blame Hillary, but she is what she is. Mostly I blame the Democratic Party. I blame them for rigging the calendar thinking they knew who the nominee would be before a single vote was cast. I blame them for the very concept of superdelegates. I blame them for their cowardice in fixing this before it came to this.

    I'm begging the party elders. Don't make Obama do this. Step in with a quick coup de grace to avoid death by a thousand cuts.

  •  not crazy about (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    apfapfapf, soms

    your headline. Clinton IS a serial exaggerator (i.e., LIAR). Saying that the Obama campaign is depicting her that way makes it sound like they're making shit up.

  •  good reading (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Gore was an improvisational exaggerator who seemed to make mistakes when he left the script given to him by his handlers.  Clinton is a scripted exaggerator who presents meticulous points often repeated in multiple settings in a short period of time.

    It's the difference between Gore's personality quirk and what Carl Bernstein described as Clinton's deep insecurity.

  •  Letter from Bosnian Veteran (7+ / 0-)

    This is an incredible letter. Might be the one that ends it for Hillary....


  •  The Clinton's Sense Of Entitlement (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, wishingwell, soms

    They will say and do anything to get back into the White House! No distortion of the truth is too much for Hillary and Bill!

  •  I find myself getting angry at (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    older white women...
    Clinton's base, who evidently either aren't paying attention, or possibly just... hate men..? Grrrrr.

    Someday this war is gonna end.

    by steelman on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:39:48 PM PDT

    •  How do we appeal to that base?? (0+ / 0-)

      Obama policies are friendly enough to them. Hmmm....we have to tell him to dress in drag and tell them that he 's Gertrude Stein's long-lost sister.
      He already has a feminist policy. So that 's the only thing left to do now.

    •  many older women are for Obama (6+ / 0-)

      Please don't buy into the "all older women are for Clinton" line.. I am a 54 year old woman who has worked very hard for Obama's campaign for months, and I know many just like me. I spent a few hours yesterday afternoon with about 20 of them at our local Dem HQ writing hundreds of postcards to folks in PA in support of don't make such blanket statements- thanks!

      •  I know, and I tried to put it gently (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        .. but that's how I feel when I see an older woman with a bitter expression. I look at their face, and I think I can tell who they voted for.

        Someday this war is gonna end.

        by steelman on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:00:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm also an OWL (old white lady) for Obama and I (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          have yet to meet a Hillary backer.  I know they're there, but I do not believe they're amassed in numbers portrayed by the MSM and others.

          "Evil is a lack of empathy, a total incapacity to feel with their fellow man." - Capt. Gilbert,Psychiatrist, at the end of Nuremberg trials.

          by 417els on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:54:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's weird because I can tell people have (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            assumptions about my vote, because of my age.  This 'old' thing kinda sneaks up on you.

            •  Not that long ago, ppl assumed one was for HRC (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              just because one was female.  At least it's been broken up into segments now...besides, some of us (including you and me, of course) look a lot older than we really are:)

              "Evil is a lack of empathy, a total incapacity to feel with their fellow man." - Capt. Gilbert,Psychiatrist, at the end of Nuremberg trials.

              by 417els on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:29:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Me too. (5+ / 0-)

        I'm in my fifties, white, and I consider myself left of most Dems.  I found this site, Kos, only after Kos himself was interviewed on KO. I figured I needed to check this site out. Being here has been a relief.  I am not alone in my disgust of Hillary anymore.  I am new to all of this, blog sites, etc. For any negative, there is a positive.  Hillary brought me to Kos.  That is good.  This site is incredible.

  •  Serial exaggerator is kind; (0+ / 0-)

    some people would say serial prevaricator is more accurate.

    How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

    by hannah on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:39:52 PM PDT

  •  Another Super Delegate For Obama!! (6+ / 0-)

    Absolute Horror: The Best in Bad Horror Movies

    by dansac on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:40:54 PM PDT

  •  Reality based.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    She reminds me of the GOP truthiness that has been going on for 8 years.. where reality is blured by intentional mistatements and if said enough times people just think oh well they all lie.. so its ok..

    ITS NOT OK hilLIARy... While telling falsoods to us may not be a crime its a good indicator that your judgment is lacking..

    A wise man controls his toung or it becomes a fire that burns his own soul. If she gets into office nothing she says can be trusted..

  •  This meme has already stuck (0+ / 0-)

    Amazing how fast it finally took hold.  You never know what will do it.  I did kind of figure it was her turn to get nailed though.

  •  An Arlen Specter-esque magic sniper round... (0+ / 0-)

    apparently just ended its twelve year flight path, catching Hillary in the foot.

    As for Obama's campaign jumping on this, the negative tack does seem a bit out of character for him/them. But given what Obama's been subjected to, who can blame him.

    What will be especially critical is for the corporate media to stop portraying Clinton's campaign as if it were Monty Python's parrot: "It's not dead, it's resting."

    media feed lot yields downer cow dynasties infectious to all -- haiku

    by high coup haiku on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:48:33 PM PDT

  •  Let the campaign do the fighting, you guys (0+ / 0-)

    stay out of it. I carefully advise you to shut the hell up. Your comments and proselytism is pissing many people off and it began showing in the cross-over voting data and it is not good at all for Obama. He loses more Democrats that he attracts independents and republicans to McCain in Missouri, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. This is a serious trouble for you guys, so be mindful of what comes out of your mouths (or what you type on the keyboard for that matter). Remember, you cannot win this election without the vote of those who supported Senator Clinton.

    "Men make their history, but not under the conditions of their own choosing" Guess who said this?

    by Mutual Assured Destruction on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:52:48 PM PDT

    •  Well your track record so far (0+ / 0-)

      based on your last few diaries, tells me you know little if anything about political outcomes. She is far from gone, and if you don't keep pushing she will pop back up. When she suspends her campaign, then it will be time to STFU. But if we do now, it will only be rewarding bad behavior. You know...consequences and such.

      Try thinking of it like this, as a parent I had to punish my children for their actions. Sometimes they would cry and ask if I hated them. My response was always the same, No, I love you, its your behavior that I am angry about.

      IMO, Clinton and most of her supporters, may have a serious need for some parenting skills classes. Since their candidate continues to act like a spoiled child who is unwilling to accept the consequences for her behavior. To add to that, her supporters continue to reward the behavior by withholding consequence for such negative actions. Someone in here once referred to her as Verruca Sault from the Willie Wonka movie. That was probably the closest description to her character I've seen yet.

      Hillary kept touting her experience, but not what she learned from it. Perhaps its because all that sniper fire made her forget.

      by KingGeorgetheTurd on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:13:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry my friend, but i really do not have a side (0+ / 0-)

        here. I am not an Obama supporter and I am not a Clinton support and I am not a republican. I am totally free from all allegiance.

        Please let us not engage in personal attacks

        And with all due respect, you exhibit a serious lack of political savviness. I can safely say that i know politics more than you do and ever will.

        I am aware that she could come back, but the road to the nomination has become a bit tricky for her. The likelihood that she clinches the nomination is very low. So, i said let the campaign of Obama does the fighting. The supporters cool it down because the cross-over numbers are not looking good.

        Okay, got it now Sparky, Good, eat your cookie now and don't make too much noise.

        "Men make their history, but not under the conditions of their own choosing" Guess who said this?

        by Mutual Assured Destruction on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:47:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh ok junior (0+ / 0-)

          never said you had a horse in the race. Just read your last few diaries and laughed at how everyone was as off as you could be so far. Well who knows sparky, maybe we will have a Clinton/Obama ticket like you suggested. Or maybe, you just have no clue on politics yourself.

          and after I have my cookie, I guess its time to go tare up my 2 personal thank you letters from an ex-US Senator for my paid participation on his staff back in the 80's and 90's election campaigns since my lack of political savvy means they were undeserved.  

          Hillary kept touting her experience, but not what she learned from it. Perhaps its because all that sniper fire made her forget.

          by KingGeorgetheTurd on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:12:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think you should, i have a slew of those... (0+ / 0-)

            some of them were written in late 1960s... you know what, this is a ridiculous conversation. I am sorry, i think you are totally immature and dragged in this first grade kind of conversation.

            The French have a nice saying; it says "se sont toujours les tonneaux vide qui font du bruit." I let you translate it, you just might understand the meaning.

            "Men make their history, but not under the conditions of their own choosing" Guess who said this?

            by Mutual Assured Destruction on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:39:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  kos, check out my diary about Clinton and Scaife (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:


    I think you need to write a front-pager about this.

    The day after Clinton meets with Scaife, two Scaife entities attack Obama (including Phil Siinger circulating an Obama hit piece from the American Spectator).

    Do supredelegates and party officials really condone using vicious rightwing hacks to attack a fellow Dem?

  •  Most importantly (0+ / 0-)

    Most imporantly, what this line of attack does is  reinforce the idea that people already have of the Clintons: that they are carfty, untrustworthy, too clever by half.  It is for this reason that I think that the whole Tuzla lie will gain traction.

    "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" - James Madison

    by Hotspur18 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:53:59 PM PDT

    •  What it does politicaly (0+ / 0-)

      is reinforce her negatives and intensifies the negatives she has inflicted on Obama back on herself. I would bet her negative numbers will end up putting her highest national polling numbers down to around 42-43% for ever. She never could get above 49% without  the MOE. Now she will be lucky to ever break 45 in any single poll. In other words, as a national candidate, she is toast.

      Hillary kept touting her experience, but not what she learned from it. Perhaps its because all that sniper fire made her forget.

      by KingGeorgetheTurd on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:00:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  How is the MSM handling Hillary's lies today? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sam07, Greasy Grant

    Are they examining more of her "triumphs" or are they moving on to other subjects? What's the feel? Does it look like they will really go for her record?

  •  Sorry to bring Chelsea into (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    this diary again, but there is also a story going around (apparently with some controversy) that Hillary "embellished" the details of just how close her daughter was to WTC on 9/11, as well.

    GWOT - Global War on Terra(-firma) - Bush's War on the Planet.

    by grndrush on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:05:34 PM PDT

  •  Dems Abroad superdelegates: 4 Obama, 2 Hillary (0+ / 0-)

    And 2 uncommitted. So that makes: pledged delegates: 9 Obama, 5 Hillary, total: 13 Obama, 7 Hillary, 2 uncommitted. 22 delegates with a HALF-VOTE each. Total votes: Obama 7.5, Hillary 3.5. Another extra full-vote comes from the difference in superdelegates.

  •  Hillary's 9-11 Fairytale (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Virginian in Spain

    Dick Morris writes on the Hill about Hillary's story about Chelsea diving into a coffeeshop to avoid falling debris from 9-11... The problem... It Never happened!! I think she is full of these fairytales:

  •  so, (0+ / 0-)

    Sir Edmund Hillary Clinton tells tall tales ?  say it ain't so.

  •  Then there's the one she told back in 1994 about (0+ / 0-)

    how she nearly joined the Marines, right before she married Bill and while she was one of two female faculty members in the School of Law at the University of Arkansas, Fayetteville.

    Like Jake Tapper asks at the end of the article, "It’s a story that I don't believe Clinton has repeated since 1994.  Why not?"

  •  lets keep vetting Hillary (0+ / 0-)

    there's obviously a lot of damaging material the repugs would use against her and it's better for all if we just get this out of the way sooner rather than later :)

    What's good for the goose...

  •  GODDAMMIT! Stop it! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Niky Ring

    Ugh!  We don't need this!

    The only people that benefit from the Dem candidates ensuring the un-electability of the other guy is John McCain.


    Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory again.

    •  She set the stage for this (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      417els, makanda

      when she decided to praise McCain while bashing a fellow Democrat.  She was welcome to go after Obama's policies, but she and her husband decided they'd rather tear the party to pieces rather than have an honest debate about the issues. Have you wondered how she's going to endorse Obama after he becomes the nominee?  She really can't, can she?  She's already said he's not as ready as McCain, not as patriotic as McCain.  Maybe she's shooting for McCain's VP, eh?

    •  We have to finish her off for once and for all (0+ / 0-)

      She can't win - can only destroy. Her candidacy must finish as soon as possible!

      •  The above is what is wrong with the party (0+ / 0-)

        Never, ever, ever say this crap about the rival candidate. It will only hurt the Democrats. We all know this. Why can't we demonstrate it?

        "Are we still, and if so on what grounds, Galilean and Cartesian?" Alain Badiou, Manifesto for Philosophy

        by Niky Ring on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:43:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Her Ears Are Still Ringing from the Sniper Fire! (0+ / 0-)

  •  Everyone is tired of Hillary's manipulation (0+ / 0-)

    Frustrated.  None of us has used the system to service ourselves as she and Bill have done.  I have no mercy for her.  I am baffled why the supers don't step in.  Leadership alone will stop this.  Leadership.

  •  I worry... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Niky Ring

    I see few in such high public places who have not exaggerated at some time or the other. I am a full fledged Obama supporter (signed up for his campaign, donated to his campaign) since Edwards withdrew, but I did hear the analysis of his Iraq war speech. In the NPR analysis, they pointed out that he did not give that speech in the middle of a heated campaign, as he has stated. Had that been true, it would have shown perhaps more courage, but it was not true. And NPR interviewed one Illinois based reporter who recalled that in his memory, it was NOT a major speech even for reporting within Illinois. There were other anti-war speeches that stood out more. I caught the program from the middle, so I might not have a clear sense of its direction.

    I wish this self destructive battle would end soon, but like the remaining days of the Bush incompetency, I guess I have to ride out this turbulence.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

    by Suvro on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:41:16 PM PDT

    •  Luckily most Obama supporters are like you (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and unlike kos and a lot of other militants on this site who are happy to kneecap both Democrats in a blind, Beltway-style obsession with the day-to-day sniping, clawing, and hissing of the campaign.

      "Are we still, and if so on what grounds, Galilean and Cartesian?" Alain Badiou, Manifesto for Philosophy

      by Niky Ring on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:46:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Don't support this line of tripe (0+ / 0-)

    If y'all are really so forgetful that you think that supporting the narrative of a Democratic candidate who can't help lying will somehow help the party, you're not only deluded, but potentially dangerous.

    If there is ONE thing BOTH Democratic candidates need to avoid between now and the convention, it's calling each other "serial exaggerators" and other such nonsense. Campaigns are ABOUT blowing up the positives and downplaying the negatives. If Obama's campaign starts something akin to the Gore problems of 2000 against Clinton, the proportional response will be picking apart every statement Obama's made about his experience for any possible exaggeration - and every, every, every politician is vulnerable to this, given one or two embittered former associates with different stories to tell.

    If we get sucked into this, the media will have a field day and it will hammer us in November as McCain maintains, even under fire, the media-aided image of the "honest Republican".

    "Are we still, and if so on what grounds, Galilean and Cartesian?" Alain Badiou, Manifesto for Philosophy

    by Niky Ring on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:41:47 PM PDT

    •  Democratic? (0+ / 0-)

      Hillary is no longer a Democratic candidate... she has shown her willingness to fracture the party for her personal gain.

      •  This is exactly what I mean (0+ / 0-)

        Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. She's a popular Democrat, beloved by many Democrats.

        You may support another Democrat, but calling the candidate you don't favor "not a real Democrat" is bad for Democrats and the Democratic Party. Zell Miller isn't a real Democrat. Lieberman isn't a real Democrat.

        Hillary Clinton is most certainly a Democratic candidate - a very well-known Democratic candidate - and will have a big role to play in the Democratic Party no matter how this election turns out.

        "Are we still, and if so on what grounds, Galilean and Cartesian?" Alain Badiou, Manifesto for Philosophy

        by Niky Ring on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:00:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  There's more information available on SCHIP (0+ / 0-)

    than which is presented in the Time article.  From, this:

    What the Record Shows

    Kennedy, of course, is now backing Clinton's rival, Barack Obama, for the nomination. But last year, before that endorsement, he was quoted by the Associated Press as saying something quite different, which the Globe did not note in its story:

    Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, Oct. 6, 2007: The children's health program wouldn't be in existence today if we didn't have Hillary pushing for it from the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue.

    In that same story, The AP's Beth Fouhy concluded, "While Kennedy is widely viewed as the driving force behind the program, by all accounts the former first lady's pressure was crucial." She quoted Nick Littlefield, who had been a senior health adviser to Kennedy, as saying, "we relied on her, worked with her and she was pivotal in encouraging the White House to do it."

    The AP's assessment is backed up by others we consulted. Adam Clymer, former chief Washington correspondent for the New York Times, covered the legislative maneuvering and also wrote about it in a 1999 book, "Edward M. Kennedy: A Biography." Clymer wrote that Kennedy "worked with" Hillary Clinton to get White House support for a Senate measure to grant $24 billion for the new program, rather than the $16 billion approved by the House. "With strong administration support, the $24 billion stayed in," he wrote. Then, when the bill finally passed, Kennedy "credited the President, the First Lady, [Senate Democratic Leader Tom] Daschle, Marian Wright Edelman, head of the Children's Defense Fun, and Hatch. ..."

    Clymer, in an exchange of e-mails, told

    Adam Clymer: On balance, I would say of course Kennedy and Hatch deserve most of the credit, but Hillary helped by making sure the Administration stuck with the $24 billion in [the Senate-House] conference. She didn't write the legislation but she played a significant role in getting it passed.

     [Emphasis added.]


    Ted Kennedy's comment for the Boston Globe story referred to in the Time piece, you'll notice, is not a denial that Clinton helped create the SCHIP program, and the impression he leaves is directly contradicted by the statements he made (highlighted above in the item) more contemporaneous with the passage of the legislation.

    With all the sand that gets inside this world, we should all be motherfucking pearls.       --Antje Duvakot

    by GOTV on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:52:31 PM PDT

  •  Hillary ready on day one... to lie (0+ / 0-)

    "Perhaps they don't know who I am!"

    by Professor Fate on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:55:43 PM PDT

  •  I have it now... (0+ / 0-)

    Belonging to a church that calls for the downfall of America does not disqualify you for President.  But a mistake about a trip 12 years ago, by a candidate who has made hundreds of official trips, does.

    So much negativity - no, vitriol - by this site against Clinton, another DEMOCRAT.  Not saying that Clinton folks are not also going negative, but that fact doesn't make it right here.  And you are sabotaging yourselves by polarizing the party.  No wonder Gallup reports today that 28% of HRC supporters would vote for McCain over BHO.  

    Oh well...  This race is probably over.  Obama will get the nomination and will proceed to lose to McCain by a landslide of historic proportions.  I will probably vote Obama in November, at least based on what I know now, but it won't matter.  (Anyone who disagrees with this prediction, come talk to me on November 5.  I will be here.  Hell, the race will probably be over long before midnight on the 4th).

    I will hold out hope that a better candidate than Clinton presents him- or herself before 2012.  It's a shame it did not happen this year, after 8 years of Bush and Cheney, when the White House was ripe for the picking.

    •  Negative Nancies (0+ / 0-)

      I'm critical of kos's outright venom towards Clinton's supporters, too. But you're not doing any better when you bemoan how we've already lost the election before we choose a candidate.

      "Are we still, and if so on what grounds, Galilean and Cartesian?" Alain Badiou, Manifesto for Philosophy

      by Niky Ring on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:16:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  When's the last time you were in a war zone? (0+ / 0-)

    How easy it is to sit at your computer and ridicule someone who took the risk of flying into the horrific war zone that was Bosnia-Herzegovenia-Crotia in the mid-1990s. It was a land wracked by genocide, rape as a tool of war, and terrible neighbor-on-neighbor murder. Certainly, she was briefed about the dangers of entering the country and knew the history of stochastic violence and the risk of flying into there. She may have been close to panic for the whole flight - descent - landing and ramp events, not feeling safe until she was in the motorcade and off of the airport. Or maybe until she returned to DC. No matter what the generals told her. You make this out to be such a simple lie, as you continue to hammer away at her as if she was Reagan-incarnate. A month after her visit, Ron Brown was killed in an air crash there ... for those of you too young to remember that time, it was thought to be a shoot-down for quite a while until the reality of a nav error emerged.

    You all mantra the idea that Obama doesn't get tangled in negative campaigning, but he trots out a retired general who has the gall to say that her statement insulted every soldier in American history. It wasn't enough to let the truth speak for itself, it was time to pile on. That's what you call non-negative campaigning? Uh, OK...

    Nice work. At least when you get McCain elected, you'll have at least 4 years, but probably 8 years, to visit DK and gripe, moan, and whine. Your first term candidate with no concrete plan for the country is going to get his ass whupped in November. That is one sad reality. Anyone with experience and a true progressive plan and philosophy has been dismissed - outright - in favor of a neophyte who, while he makes us all feel good, will be overwhelmed in the White House.

    Let me poke one more stick in your cages: I'm voting for Nader, because he is a true progressive, he understands the deeply corrupt influences in American politics and government, he's afraid of no one, he actually understands domestic and foreign complexities, he actually has a plan, and he has never waivered from his stands. God forbid we elect someone who will work to dismantle corporate power and the American aristocracy, give us all real health care, destroy the power of K Street, vaporize NAFTA and other such horrors and bring back American manufacturing, stop whoring this great country out to China, and reign in the military-industrial complex. GOD FORBID.

    And you're all about change, right? Excuse me while I spit up my milk.

    Oh, and spare me your anti-Nader kool-aid reactionary drivel: you Obamabots are too brainwashed to actually do the research on your own. Unless you've read Nader's books and listened to his lectures, you have not a clue what you are talking about. You tell me how Obama will deal with the list I've itemized above, and we can talk. Otherwise, go back to your cheerleading rah-rahs.

    Too bad politics has become a sport instead of a legitimate process.

    •  but she knows Al Gore! (0+ / 0-)

      and he's another 'serial exaggerator'. Remember Love Canal? Or that Union label song that was popular after he was a child, but that he said his parents sang him as a lullaby? Or about how he told us all he invented the Internet? It's a good thing the media is really eager to ferret out 'liars' as soon as fingers are pointed over differing accounts - or else we'd have Al Gore, that evil manipulator, as our President right now.

      Serial exaggeration! We need to get this term out there, right now, and link it to a prominent Democrat. That's the 2000 strategy!

      "Are we still, and if so on what grounds, Galilean and Cartesian?" Alain Badiou, Manifesto for Philosophy

      by Niky Ring on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:19:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  more Gore (0+ / 0-)

        And Love Story was about Al and Tipper.
        "I accompanied James Lee Witt down to Texas when those fires broke out."
        "I've been a part of the discussions on the strategic reserve since the days when it was first established."
        "I'm very familiar with the importance of dairy farming in Wisconsin. I've spent the night on a dairy farm here in Wisconsin."
        and on and on

    •  Your explanation (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      of Sen Clinton's mindset about this Bosnia flap would be reasonable except for one thing- I believe Sen Clinton is a wonderful mother and as a mother myself, I don't believe she would ever take her child anywhere dangerous, no way. And I think if she was fired upon and her baby was in danger, the truth of it would be seared in her brain

  •  Think of Snipers in the General (0+ / 0-)

    that is when is will get really scary

    HRC is no longer electable I think

    Tax Paradigms, Feed Imaginations

    by jhpdb on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:32:04 PM PDT

  •  Is it true that Hillary discovered penicillin... (0+ / 0-)

    ...holds the world record in the 100-yard dash and dug the Panama Canal single-handed?

    •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

      just like Al Gore discovered Love Canal, invented the Internet, and grew up on a farm doing chores.

      Wait, you're telling me the statements Al Gore actually made have some merit and calling them lies is dishonest and simplistic? Alert the media! They'll no doubt correct their stories right away, especially as they've been spread so far and wide.

      "Are we still, and if so on what grounds, Galilean and Cartesian?" Alain Badiou, Manifesto for Philosophy

      by Niky Ring on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:35:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]


    I think Barack Obama is just ridiculous to a ridiculous level with this "serial exaggerator" comment by his campaign. I'd like someone with a little more maturity than this as my country's President. Maybe he spent his St. Thomas vacation brainstorming and I think that, perhaps, he's come up with a few grade school putdowns.

    I like Bill Clinton's idea about "saddling up for an argument." I think mature adults can do this.

    Show us you're an adult, Barack.

    •  At least he's not a serial liar... (0+ / 0-) his opponent :)

      •  I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT, Bluewombat... (0+ / 0-)

        He denied the meeting between his Chief Economic Adviser and the Canadian official ever took place, then was forced to admit it when presented with the evidence of the meeting. Then, he wants us to believe that NAFTA wasn't discussed and that his Adviser did not tell Canada not to worry about what Barack Obama has been promising the American people on the campaign trail because it is only "political" rhetoric, not "policy?"

        And, what about the campaign conributions from Tony Rezko that Barack Obama originally claimed to have totaled $150,000? After the Rezko Corruption Trial began and Barack Obama's name was reportedly brought up on the first day of testimony, Barack Obama suddenly admits that he actually received $250,000 in Rezko campaign contributions.

        And, then we have Barack Obama's statement that he has remained a congregant of his church for 20 years, but that he NEVER heard the kinds of racist, anti-Semitic, Hate-flled, anti-American invective from his minister that we all have heard on the videos in the past couple of weeks, a man he has called his "mentor" - a man he said he goes to for spiritual guidance and counsel. I don't think anyone with a brain would believe this.

  •  Ready to Lie on Day One (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eman, El Tomaso, bluewombat


  •  Sen.Clinton is NOT a serial exagerator.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    She is a serial liar.

    When she pretends to be what she will never be, a big, bad, brave warrior who has experienced the horror of combat, she spits upon every real warrior and real vet in this nation.

    I speak as a vet.  I don't speak as being big or bad.  I know combat.  I know fear.  I am not brave, but I did what I had to do.  Sen. Clinton seeks to leverage a fantasy of having done the same.  That is wrong.  

    May God Bless our troops wherever they are. Best regards, El Tomaso

    by El Tomaso on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:01:41 PM PDT

  •  Someone should do a Hillary Isuzu ad (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    It would be hilarious.  Sad to see a candidate self destruct so fast...

    IOKIYAR! They believe markets and competition solve everything AND that the universe is centrally planned.

    by No One No Where on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:23:01 PM PDT

  •  Obama should not be attacking Clinton (0+ / 0-)

    I haven't read all 377 comments on this thread, so maybe this has already been said, but it is just as damaging for Obama to undercut Clinton as it is for Clinton to attack Obama.  Both are strong Democrats and are assets to the party.  Obama should focus on his strengths and McCain's weaknesses, and leave the attacks to the republicans.  (And Clinton should do the same.)

  •  This is all making me sad (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I keep thinking we had a chance to run good candidates with a better kind of campaign, but Bill and Hillary Clinton are interested only in their own egos, not the Democratic party or winning in November. The country DOES want something different than this.

    There is such a pattern of deceit in everything they say that I have lost all the respect I once had for them both.

    It's such a shame. When she's really herself (think the tears in New Hampshire, the nice moment at the end of the debate two debates ago), she's very appealing. She's smart and capable. But when she listens to the two slime-meisters running her campaign, she sounds as if she's gone off the deep end.

  •  This is no way for Obama to attempt to unite the (0+ / 0-)

    party.  It's quite clear that Obama does not do well when attempting to take her on the issues so he is trying to undermine her by raising her negatives.  

    Though he may have enough support to knock off Hillary, the problem is that Obama has hurt the Democratic Party by mishandling the Wright controversy.  He has destroyed the hard fought national security bona fides that we earned in 2006 when the military vote and Iraq vet vote shifted towards Dems.  His speech helped unify liberals behind him, but he has damaged his appeal to the swing voters that Hillary has done well with but he has not.

    We were viewed as thoughtful patriots in 2006.  We are now viewed as a party that coddles people who think this country is the 'US of KKKA'.  

    To me, these next 10 contests are a referendum on Obama.  If Democrats think he is the guy, then they should vote for him decisively.  If they think he is too green for the job and might not be strong enough or tough enough to win in November, then they should vote for Hillary decisively.  

    Alternative rock with something to say:

    by khyber900 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 10:16:36 PM PDT

    •  Obama handled the Wright controversy wonderfully (0+ / 0-)

      I don't know what channel you were watching.

      "Are we still, and if so on what grounds, Galilean and Cartesian?" Alain Badiou, Manifesto for Philosophy

      by Niky Ring on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 10:44:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think he convinced anyone but (0+ / 0-)

        those who were already inclined to support him.  I don't believe the MSM take on the speech nor do I think the polls show anything more than that he  stopped bleeding support. I think he hurt himself among those he will need to persuade to win the Presidency.  How he does in PA and beyond will tell whether his strategy has been effective or not.  If he's going to be the nominee, I hope that he is successful, but as a realist, I think he needs to wrap himself in the flag and speak to the larger issue of patriotism.  I believe he has a tin ear to patriotism, and I think it was profoundly foolish for Obama to have coddled Wright long after he came to the conclusion that he was radioactive.  

        I think all of these attacks lobbed at Hillary and her Bosnia statements are simply distractions that are meant to get Democratic voters to not focus too closely on him.  It is not a strategy about uniting the party, the country, or building a transformative movement for change.  It is an old political parlor game. The GOP will not be fooled.  They know exactly how they're going to attack Obama because Obama opened the door wide to such attacks when he chose to coddle Wright for so many months.

        Alternative rock with something to say:

        by khyber900 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 10:55:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site