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You know, there was a time...

In 1992, I saw Bill Clinton at the quad at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.  (No, it's not a woman, yes, it's in Michigan).  Bill had just schooled George Herbert Hoover Walker Bush in a debate at Michigan State University (AKA Moo U), and he was coming down to one of the finest public research universities in the world to say hey to some students.  It was kind of a chilly night--iirc, it was about the second week of October--but the quad was so packed that you were warm, because literally people were jammed together.  I was with a couple friends, but I was literally touching about four other people...including a woman who, I realized after about a half an hour, was quite enjoying her boyfriend's hand below her belt buckle.

It was the night I learned the term MILF, and it was applied to Hillary Clinton.

At the time, Hillary seemed kinda cool, by national political standards.  I mean, think about what I had had before that; Roslyn Carter is great, but she ain't too hip.  I can't think of Nancy Reagan without thinking about how much my grandparents hated "Clayface."  Kitty Dukakis?  Meh.  I don't know anything about Mondale's wife.  Tipper Gore at that time I only associated with the Parents Music Resource Council.  I loved that on the original vinyl pressing of Sonic Youth's Goo, on the trail off section of the album where the music ends and the turntable arm would lift, they had engraved "fuck the PMRC."  [I now like Tipper, btw.]

So granted, the competition wasn't too fierce.  But in 1992, Hillary was about as hip a potential first lady as we'd had in American since Eleanor Roosevelt, and she was better looking.  

WTF happened to her?

OK, granted, Bill was a jerk.  Getting a bj from a nitwitted Beverly Hills brat has to be one of the most humiliating things a prominent American man has done to his wife in our history.  Also, I'm sure the attacks on her by the right wing hardened her, and made her shut down even more than she was temperamentally inclined to.  But were my standards just horrifically low, that I've been surprised at what's she's become?

There used to be a time when I thought Hillary Clinton was OK.  I was never a huge fan of hers, but I thought she was OK.  I never hated her, not even in the aftermath of her horrendous actions regarding the Iraq War.  But her conduct in recent months, her campaign against the Democratic party, it's unconscionable.  

So, here's my question for you: has Hillary always been this way, or did success ruin her?

Originally posted to Dana Houle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:43 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  the children of PA vote for Obama! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mayan, Samwoman, Blue Texas, jfromga

    Look at this really cute New York Times article!

    What's madness but nobility of the soul at odds with circumstance?

    by slinkerwink on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:46:59 PM PDT

  •  She was hardened by Washington (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pondite, Dumbo, Blue Texas, The Distillery

    The pursuit of power is like Frodo's ring.

    "It's the planet, stupid."

    by FishOutofWater on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:47:53 PM PDT

    •  I disagree (10+ / 0-)

      She was like that all along. See: Hillarycare. What was the lasting theme of that debacle? That she pissed off everyone who disagreed with her.

      •  Also (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Fonsia, dawnt, Knight Rider

        See travelgate.

      •  Right. (5+ / 0-)

        She wasn't running then, Bill was. Hillarycare was her project and on her stuff she drives hard:

        Blake: What's the problem, pal?
        Dave Moss: You -
        [correcting him]
        Dave Moss: Moss. You're such a hero, you're so rich, how come you're coming down here wasting your time with such a bunch of bums?
        Blake: You see this watch? You see this watch?
        Dave Moss: Yeah.
        Blake: That watch costs more than you car. I made $970,000 last year. How much you make? You see pal, that's who I am, and you're nothing. Nice guy? I don't give a shit. Good father? Fuck you! Go home and play with your kids. You wanna work here - close! You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you cocksucker? You can't take this, how can you take the abuse you get on a sit? You don't like it, leave.

        That's just her personality. A-B-C. Always be closing.

        But what is clear in both in my memory and my notes is that there was extensive, hard-nosed discussion about why masses of voters did not support Clinton or trust government or base their choices on economic as opposed to what people saw as peripheral life-style concerns. Hillary Clinton was among the most cold-blooded analysts in attendance. She spoke of ordinary voters as if they were a species apart, and showed interest only in the political usefulness of their choices -- usefulness to the Clinton administration, that is.

        That's not necessarily bad - every campaign needs an id and I think Hillary was it for Bill and is for herself. But the id needs a (political) superego and I don't think she has one in her campaign. She's surrounded by loyalists - people that I'm guessing don't tell her to knock it the fuck off. And being a former first lady, that needs a damn big personality anyway.

        -6.00, -7.03
        Obama '08

        by johnsonwax on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:49:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't understand honestly (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        how could she not try to work with the Elected politicians that she needed to even get the thing passed?

        I mean, what the hell was she thinking?  Did she think she could bully every single one of them into doing what she wanted?

      •  Yup - we just chose to overlook the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        flaws because we would do anything to have a Dem president . . I remember how I rationalized things in the 1990s . .

    •  Is (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rigso, PamelaD

      Obama in the pursuit of power?

  •  I honestly think (11+ / 0-)

    she knows she can't compete with Obama in the same way he does, that she can't out-do his strengths and connect with the demographics he can and is connecting with.

    So she chose to go another route, to destroy his credibility and his candidacy.

    That's what I think happened. I don't think Clinton is evil at all, or a bad person deep down. I think she's choosing a foolish and destructive method of campaigning.

    And frankly, I think she's stuck in the beltway mindset and doesn't see herself campaigning against the Democratic party, but rather against a group of leftist activists who don't know as much as she does and thus NEED her to do what's best for them.

    Because I'm tired of some of you: I do not support any candidate.

    by TheBlaz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:48:25 PM PDT

  •  misposted on fp? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tanya, feelingsickinMN

    ah wells

    The President thinks sodomizing children is cool. Bitter? No, that was me when Bush stole the 2000 election.Right now, I'm f--kin' pissed.

    by bhagamu on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:49:24 PM PDT

  •  Success reinforced how she already was (12+ / 0-)

    She seems driven by what has worked for her and what has worked against her.
    She would be a step up from a president who never learns, but a step down from one who would imagine new ways of being.

  •  this is one of those time when the (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peraspera, Bouwerie Boy, begone

    peronal is really political. I used to like her in the beginning Clinton's first term. It was well known is political circles that Bill was always a cheat and not very discrete about it. She spent her life with a public cheater, that does a number on a woman. She tied her wagon to his and stayed in what would be considered by most a dysfunctional marriage. Was she always like this? Who knows. I think that kind of stuff grows over time.

    To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men~~ Abraham Lincoln

    by Tanya on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:51:04 PM PDT

  •  Interesting post, but the (12+ / 0-)

    part about, well, you can guess will probably distract folks and get you labeled a sexist.

    To answer your question, she's always been a top-down, with-me-or-against-me absolutist.  However, this vice was tempered by the fact that she used to have principles and be an unabashed liberal.

    Now, she's just an early-stage Lieberman with an even bigger vindictive streak.

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:51:49 PM PDT

  •  I think that question is too speculative (15+ / 0-)

    for me.  There's no way to answer it.

    What I can say is that my perception of her has changed radically.  I used to be comfortable with the idea of her as president.  But with every passing day I am less and less comfortable--scared, even.

    It's not just what she's doing to the Party, either, though that's bad enough.  I've been thinking that the two biggest things that Hillary strategized were the Health Care Task Force and this campaign.  Both were complete failures.  Hillary may know what she wants to do.  But she sure doesn't know how to figure out how to get from point A to point B.  There is no earthly reason that Barack should be where he is right now, but for her failed campaign strategy.

    It's a sobering thought.

    "The race is not always to the swift, but to those who keep running."

    by Fasaha on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:52:13 PM PDT

    •  And Barack's successful campaign strategy. (8+ / 0-)

      I don't buy the premise that Barack is winning this campaign solely because Hillary is running a shoddy operation.  

      Senator Obama has put together an unprecedented, grass roots organization that has enabled him to successfully challenge and defeat some damned fine, experienced political veterans, from John Edwards to Chris Dodd, Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton.

      •  Point of clarification: I agree that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Barack has run a magnificent campaign.  I just meant that when you think about the relative advantages she had vs those he had, it is just remarkable that she could not parlay that long list of advantages into a better campaign.  In fact, I think it's decisive:  someone who can't win when they have all those advantages has some splainin to do.

        "The race is not always to the swift, but to those who keep running."

        by Fasaha on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 05:58:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Barack isn't winning because Hillary lost, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      she's losing because he started winning.

      He had to tie up Super Tuesday to throw a wrench into her works. The veneer of her inevitability did not begin to crack until late January.

    •  Right you are (0+ / 0-)

      It was hers to lose not his to win.  And she lost it .  And he won it.

      Maybe he and Dick Durbin who urged Obama to run now... saw and knew this about her deep down.

      I think she is downright dangerous.  Has about the worst JUDGMENT I've ever seen in a person in her position.  Think about even her refusal to allow Bill to settle the Paula Jones case before the Monica Lewinsky story came out. And she even egged on the filing of the case by refusing to allow Bill to even apologize and calling Jones "trailer trash."  That too was her strategy.  So it's not just Health Care and this campaign, it's lot's of other things big and small.

      The problem is that she long ago  got her toughness by identifying with the aggressor, first her father, who was a real piece of work... broke the boys, turned Hillary into one tough broad.  Then she has identified with Karl Rove and Republican tactics.  But it goes way back, including stealing documents from the files of the House Comm as  young lawyer so they wouldn't be there as evidence that precedent indicated that Nixon was entitled to counsel at his proposed impeachment.  I mean she was fired for unethical behavior and for awful judgment.  It goes way, way back.   She has a robotic intelligence.  She is a stubborn although not ultimately intelligent woman, with just awful JUDGMENT and no moral compass.  Like her father,a real piece of work.

  •  Once you go all in (12+ / 0-)

    You have to play the hand

    She got caught bluffing.

    •  The one thing (16+ / 0-)

      that keeps surprising me is that people often say "but at least she's not stupid" or that she's very intelligent, or whatever.

      I see no trace of intelligence whatsoever in her. No emotional intelligence, no analytic intelligence. I do see an ability to recite canned responses and counter-replies, which, btw, is something schoolchildren can do. With age and wisdom and intelligence come a sense of nuance and tone, but here Hillary has displayed an amazing tone-deafness.

      All I see in her are verbal excercises and an unlimited lust for power. When she's had significant tasks, she has failed. And I don't know of any substantial accomplishments of hers.

      Where am I wrong in saying that Hillary seems fundamentally incompetent?

      •  Add in her advisors and stress (5+ / 0-)

        and abandon all hope. She has a brain, she has just tied it in knots to get elected.

      •  Well said, Mbuto (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gooserock, theran, txdemfem, Mbuto, Alohilani

        She comes off as very canned, and is clearly very tone-deaf. You've just put your finger on something that's been bugging me intensely, and articulated it for me.

        As to her fundamental incompetence, I fear you are not wrong: I think she has demonstrated it in how she has run (and lost) this campaign.

        Sweet are the uses of adversity...[Find] tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, Sermons in stones, and good in everything. -Shakespeare, As You Like It

        by earicicle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:20:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Look She Entered Show Business On Broadway (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          buhdydharma, Mbuto

          First elected office, the Senate, 3rd campaign ever, President of the United States.

          I'm a 40 year performing musician, I train performing musicians and train & coach them in competitions in their earlier years.

          She seems canned because she is, she hasn't a great gift nor has put in the time in lower races to learn the craft and establish her own voice. Like Nixon, she has ideas, but none of the campaigning personality of her husband.

          It's not at all clear she's lost the campaign. The media think they've got Obama now; they won't affect his core supporters but they can easily cut off his growth, and may be able to suppress turnout.

          If that happens Hillary has a great shot at getting in. There is evidence that we could get a very nasty slap Tuesday.

          We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

          by Gooserock on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:48:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  There is a fundamental problem with this analogy (6+ / 0-)

      When you shove, you get to sit back and watch the cards come off.  It is exactly when you don't play the hand.  It's the next hand where character gets tested.

      What we are seeing from Hillary is tilting.  She's acting like an addict who can't figure out when (or even why) to get up from the table.  Her intent seems to be to just continue verbally abusing the other players and spewing until she's politically broke.

  •  Abraham Lincoln (18+ / 0-)

    once said, I believe around the time he realized he might capture the GOP nomination in Chicago if things (Seward, Chase) broke his way:

    "the taste is in my mouth"

    I think Hillary believed in her heart that she was going to be the first woman president.  She feels the loss of that.

    Loyalty comes from love of good government, not fear of a bad one. Justice Hugo Black.

    by Pondite on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:53:29 PM PDT

    •  She feels the loss (7+ / 0-)

      but we've all suffered from disappointments in life -- not getting the perfect job we wanted or being admitted to the college we'd hoped for -- relationships broken up -- whatever.  Yet life goes on.  Clinton cannot accept her loss, no how, no way.  If anyone is acting bitter, it's HRC.

      “Hillary: Get Elected or Lie Tryin’.” -- Bill Maher

      by winsock on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:26:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Projection (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueness, khereva

        If anyone is acting bitter, it's HRC.

        And I think we've all seen people project their own emotions/responses onto others. Perhaps that was fueling the "bitter" battle.

      •  "Why are we here? For the glory of the empire"... (0+ / 0-)


        You sent for me, Caesar? - Caesar? - Tell me again, Maximus. Why are we here? For the glory of the empire, sire. Ah, yes. Ah, yes, I remember. Do you see that map, Maximus? That is the world which I created. For years... I have conquered, spilt blood, expanded the empire. Since I became caesar, I've known four years without war. Four years of peace in . And for what? I brought the sword. Nothing more.

        Caesar, your life-- Please. Please don't call me that. Come. Please. Come sit. Let us talk together now-- very simply-- as men. Maximus, talk. Five thousand of my men are out there in the freezing mud. Three thousand of them are bloodied and cleaved. Two thousand will never leave this place. I will not believe that they fought and died for nothing. And what would you believe? They fought for you and for Rome.

        And what is Rome? I've seen much of the rest of the world. It is brutal and cruel and dark. Rome is the light. Yet you have never been there. You have not seen what it has become. I am dying, Maximus. When a man sees his end... he wants to know there was some purpose to his life. How will the world speak my name in years to come? Will I be known as the philosopher? The warrior? The tyrant? Or will I be the emperor who gave Rome back her true self?

        There was once a dream that was Rome. You could only whisper it. Anything more than a whisper and it would vanish... it was so fragile. And I fear that it will not survive the winter.

        Maximus... let us whisper now... together, you and I. You have a son. Tell me about your home. My house is in the hills above Trujillo. A very simple place. Pink stones that warm in the sun. A kitchen garden that smells of herbs in the day... jasmine in the evening. Through the gate is a giant poplar. Figs, apples, pears. The soil, Marcus-- black. Black like my wife's hair. Grapes on the south slopes, olives on the north. Wild ponies play near my house. They tease my son. He wants to be one. - Remember the last time you were home? - Two years, days and this morning.

        I envy you, Maximus. It's a good home. Worth fighting for. There is one more duty... that I ask of you before you go home. What would you have me do, Caesar? I want you to become the protector of Rome after I die. I will empower you to one end alone-- to give power back to the people of Rome... and end the corruption that has crippled it. Will you accept this great honor that I have offered you? With all my heart, no.

        Maximus... that is why it must be you. But surely a prefect, a senator... somebody who knows the city, who understands her politics. But you have not been corrupted by her politics.

        - And Commodus? - Commodus is not a moral man. You have known that since you were young. Commodus cannot rule. He must not rule. You are the son that I should have had. Commodus will accept my decision. He knows that you command the loyalty of the army.

        Are you ready to do your duty for Rome? Yes, Father. You will not be emperor. Which wiser, older man is to take my place? My powers will pass to Maximus... to hold in trust... until the senate is ready to rule once more. Rome is to be a republic again. - Maximus. - Yes. My decision disappoints you?

        You wrote to me once... listing the four chief virtues. Wisdom, justice... fortitude... and temperance. As I read the list, I knew I had none of them. But I have other virtues, Father. Ambition. That can be a virtue when it drives us to excel. Resourcefulness. Courage. Perhaps not on the battlefield, but... there are many forms of courage. Devotion to my family... and to you. But none of my virtues were on your list. Even then it was as if you didn't want me for your son.

        You go too far. I searched the faces of the gods... for ways to please you, to make you proud. One kind word... one full hug... where you pressed me to your chest and held me tight... would have been like the sun on my heart for a thousand years. What is it in me you hate so much? All I've ever wanted... was to live up to you, Caesar. - Father. - Commodus. Your fault as a son... is my failure as a father. Come. Father. I would butcher the whole world... if you would only have loved me"!

        emphases mine

        Hillary's world coming to its end:

        "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:12:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  She hasn't changed (6+ / 0-)

    Obama has something new, and she isn't buying.  That may be grounds for political eclipse, but it's not grounds for the hatred that is all too evident.  If you didn't hate her then, there's no basis for hating her now except if you just hate anyone who blocks Obama's path.

    -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

    by Rich in PA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:53:46 PM PDT

  •  She's a scorpio. (4+ / 0-)

    Not to insult other scorpios, but this is classic scorpio behavior.  They have the potential for extreme greatness and abyssal falls.  The one pervasive thread is power and the pursuit of it.  She will always do whatever she has to do to attain power.  (Most scorpios are not as extreme as her.)  I think she always stayed with Bill because she knew he would catapult her farther than she could go herself.  It was always about power.

  •  I feel the same way (11+ / 0-)

    So, here's my question for you: has Hillary always been this way, or did success ruin her?

    The point is, no one can tell. She is a triangulator. She probably always has had good values, but those values take second place to her ambitions. She is for MoveOn when she thinks they will support her; she is against them when they don't. She for Bill Richardson when his vote is in play, she is against him when it isn't. She is for the Iraq War when politically expedient (you too, John Edwards) but she is against it when it isn't.

    If you had to pick one word to describe her it would be a tie between "ambitious" and "entitled." Oh, and a new one for many Democrats: unlikeable.

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:56:26 PM PDT

  •  I really don't believe that she was (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    True North, peraspera, blueness

    always like this. Her behavior in this campaign has truely shocked me. I voted for her for Senate twice but, as things stand now, I'm not certain that I would vote to send her back for a third term.

    "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

    by Bouwerie Boy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:56:54 PM PDT

  •  Why does this matter? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theran, rontun, Alohilani

    If the implication that she wasn't like this but became like this as a result of whatever is she went through, and she can go back to the way she was, no, it will never ever ever happen. People travel that road one-way only. By the time she reaches the end of that road, too many others stand ready to remind her that she isn't allowed to go back anymore, even if she wanted to (an I don't think she even knows what that was like).

    Anyway, she was like this back then too, She could control it better, so it came out only from time to time.

  •  Bill and Hillary Clinton were fooled by Bush .. (0+ / 0-)

    .. on Iraq etc.

    Now, instead of admitting they were fooled they spend their time being angry and looking for some way to get there self-esteem back; if they would just admit they were fooled ..

    This time it's personal.

    by apostrophe on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:57:40 PM PDT

    •  Barack stands between them and their self-esteem (0+ / 0-)

      Barack Obama stands between them and their ability to recover their self-esteem.

      This time it's personal.

      by apostrophe on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:04:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  how could (4+ / 0-)

      the Clintons be fooled by Bush on Iraq, Clinton was only out of office a couple years, the intelligence hadn't changed, Bill was certainly in a position to know it was BS, surely he could have influenced Hillary without violating any rules with a few well placed words.  It was politically expedient to vote for the war.  It wasn't about being fooled.

    •  Hillary the true hawk (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MadEye, lauramp, blueness, rontun, Mbuto, Alohilani

      Hillary voted for the war as a Bill-style triangulation to maintain her viability as commander in chief.....

      She voted for the resolution on Iran that is setting up a war with Iran.

      She wants to create a new "umbrella" of Arab states that we will go to war for....

      She has contempt for anti-war Democrats....

      Hillary could be even more dangerous than McCain--I am convinced she would bomb Iran if she were convinced it would raise her poll numbers.  

    •  Some amazing responses from my perspective. (0+ / 0-)

      So tomorrow if it was reported that Bush murdered a million Iraqis to satisfy his global ambitions, you would all say, we all did that; Clintons, Congress, the rest of America, and us; we wanted global domination at any price?

      Or you'd say, I set myself on fire in Times Square to try to stop it; I survived and today I blog?

      This time it's personal.

      by apostrophe on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:35:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hillary (12+ / 0-)

    There used to be a time when I thought Hillary Clinton was OK.

    Hillary used to be "OK", be she ain't anymore, she's different. It's as if she took not only the repulsive campaign tactics of the Far Right and used them in her own campaign, but also took the Far Right's lying caricature of her from the 1990s, and decided that this caricature could be a strength and that she ought to live up to it, that doing this would help her win. And winning, to Hillary, apparently means everything.

    Her compulsion to win at almost all costs is sick. Simply put, I think Hillary has issues and needs therapy.

    Complain to ABC about their Fox News debate: 1-212-456-7777, 1-818-460-7477

    by assyrian64 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:57:51 PM PDT

  •  Stereotypes, stereotypes (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnny rotten, begone, dotcommodity

    Is there a powerful woman who has not been stereotyped as cold and conniving? Case in point, Meryl Streep's character in the remake of The Manchurian Candidate, rumored to be modeled after Hillary. Who knows what the real Hillary Clinton is like. What matters is, she has allowed herself to be made the sales person for a political machine that is hurting this country.  

    Damn George Bush! Damn everyone that won't damn George Bush! Damn every one that won't put lights in his window and sit up all night damning George Bush!

    by brainwave on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:01:37 PM PDT

  •  Always what? (9+ / 0-)

    A proponent of top-down politics?  Probably.

    A poor manager?  Probably.

    Self-unaware?  Look at her graduation speech.

    A tilter whose solution is to steam her way out of trouble?  Bill always has been.

    A Republican in terms of ideology and narrative approach?  No.  Right-wing attacks are something she became obsessed with in the 90s, and now she really thinks it's a favor to the party to put on the Republican mask and play that role.

    I think the last one is what you are asking about, but the deadly combination is the last two.  She seems to have lost any real self-control in recent weeks and all kinds of nasty stuff that's been in her head is spewing out.

  •  So sixteen years ago you had an adolescent (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Steven R, catfish, PamelaD

    fantasy about fucking her, and THIS is the basis of your disappointment?  Or if not that, at least the baseline of your analysis?

    No.  There's no sexism here.  None at all.

    If you refuse to vote for OUR PARTY'S nominee in November, the blood of a thousand back-alley abortions will be on your hands.

    by dhonig on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:06:23 PM PDT

    •  So Two Minutes Ago You Misread... (5+ / 0-)

      ...and had to show that you can't read?

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by Dana Houle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:09:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  When this many people "misread" (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        raboof, catfish, Predictor, PamelaD

        it is more likely you miswrote.  Unfortunately, your arrogance prohibits such introspection.  

        If you refuse to vote for OUR PARTY'S nominee in November, the blood of a thousand back-alley abortions will be on your hands.

        by dhonig on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 04:53:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ah, Siding With Bhudydharma (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Great company you've chosen to keep...

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by Dana Houle on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:19:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You really are an ad hominem ass, (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            raboof, catfish, Predictor, PamelaD
            aren't you?  He and I were not the only ones to notice the putridity of your diary.  Instead of dealing with it, though, you attack the messenger.  That does not surprise me, given the dishonesty of your front-page work, at least back to the Drudge debacle.  Then again, perhaps you are right.  I am engaging with you, and that is the poorest company of all.

            Now I hope you will excuse me. For some reason, I feel the need to take a shower.

            If you refuse to vote for OUR PARTY'S nominee in November, the blood of a thousand back-alley abortions will be on your hands.

            by dhonig on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:27:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  DRAMA!!! (0+ / 0-)

              I'd advise you to stop clinging to your bitterness, but I suspect it's all you have.  

              The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

              by Dana Houle on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:40:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I answer you here (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                catfish, Predictor

                If you refuse to vote for OUR PARTY'S nominee in November, the blood of a thousand back-alley abortions will be on your hands.

                by dhonig on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:57:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah, and while you're at it you may as well (0+ / 0-)

                  take a shot at denigrating Dkos as well.  


                  •  DHinMI denigrates dKos (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    raboof, catfish, Predictor, PamelaD

                    I simply report it.

                    If you refuse to vote for OUR PARTY'S nominee in November, the blood of a thousand back-alley abortions will be on your hands.

                    by dhonig on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:27:04 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You have a chip on your shoulder about (0+ / 0-)

                      dKos because there are more supporters of Obama than Clinton, and you chose to highlight this incident with dKos in the title in a transparent attempt to denigrate the site.  I read your other posts there.  My question is, if you hate our site so much, what are you doing obssessing over it?  

                      Clinton is going to lose with or without our help, the campaign is killing itself.  There will be a time you might want to be part of an intelligent, progressive community again and you are definitely burning bridges here.  It's ridiculous to me that you're here concern trolling about the site while you're trying to tear it down elsewhere.

                      I've lost respect for a slew of people that used to have some dignity in the past at Dkos.  This is what happens when your candidate has none, I suppose.  

                      •  I don't hate the site (5+ / 0-)

                        I hate what it has, I hope temporarily, become - a "lord of the flies" feeding frenzy of absurdity and hypocrisy, spiced once in a while with outright misogyny.

                        As for "burning bridges," well, I fear not. Go back over my diary history - two diaries rescued in the last week or two, three or four more on the recommended list lately, all cause me to think I've nothing to fear.

                        And finally, as for dignity, well, I fear you know not the meaning of the word.  Get back to me when your criticism is for front-pagers who refer to women as "MILFs," instead of those who note the ugliness of such remarks.  You are blinded by your decision that team means more than thought or dignity.

                        If you refuse to vote for OUR PARTY'S nominee in November, the blood of a thousand back-alley abortions will be on your hands.

                        by dhonig on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 11:33:14 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  That's rich coming from someone who is (0+ / 0-)

                          participating in the mess mydd has become.  I cruise through there once every couple of months to see if Jerome has regained his sanity, and instead caught your ridiculous rant.

                          You know perfectly well DH is over the top and has always been so.  I have had many scuffles with the guy myself.  Calling it mysoginistic was utterly ridiculous and one of the reasons no one listens to the people crying wolf all of the time in the Hillary campaign.  It was a low-blow against this site to attempt to gain who knows what.  

                          I am not blinded by anything, I see pretense and bullshit for exactly what it is and have called it that right now.  It is typical of the Clinton campaign and will be the reason for its downfall.  Good luck with insulting the very site you are so concerned about.  You're setting yourself up for your own dose of hypocrisy.

              •  DH, you need to check your yahoo e-mail ASAP. (0+ / 0-)

                We've had our differences, but what is happening to you as a response to this exchange is despicable.    

    •  yeah the MILF thing threw me... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I really don't know what the point of this is.

      •  Based Upon... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        ...this comment earlier today, I'm expect many things to throw you.  And I'm not surprised you don't know what the point is.  

        The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

        by Dana Houle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:15:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •   I'm expect many things to throw you? (0+ / 0-)

          come again?  what do you mean by that?  

        •  and one other thing (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          about that Irony Alert you threw out this afternoon, in an otherwise insightful diary, seeing what was revealed a few hours later, when Hillary Clinton essentially went on record saying in not as many words "I fucking can't stand Obama People"... your comment was proven imbecilic...  sorry but you were very wrong to point out anger and hatred on this site when a candidate and their followers are certainly disdainful so publicly and privately versus their opposition.

          What vitriol you find on this site is often a Rant, or Venting... what was found in that article and in Hillary's statements today however, well, they're indicative of a rottenness and loss of moral bearings.

          and on last thing, MILF = Mother I'd Like to Fuck... and it's piggish and sexist. You should say such things honestly.  Not on a Political Forum... maybe on or something.

        •  When you have to run all over your diary (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Predictor, PamelaD, beijingbetty

          comments insulting people who criticize you, there is a pretty good chance the problem is not with them.

          If you refuse to vote for OUR PARTY'S nominee in November, the blood of a thousand back-alley abortions will be on your hands.

          by dhonig on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 04:54:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  she's always been this way (9+ / 0-)

    we've just never been between her and what she wanted before.

    "There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible. But in the end they always fall. Think of it. Always." -- Mahatma Gandhi

    by duha on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:06:29 PM PDT

  •  For pity's sake, she was a Goldwater girl (14+ / 0-)

    who went off to an elite girl's college in the east and wore big-ass glasses and met freakin' Elvis at Yale in the form of Bill Clinton and traded in 30+ years for her shot and now some upstart kid wants to take it away.  Bitter, I'll show you bitter, you and your little dog, too.

    Nation (as Colbert would say), I don't think we're in Kansas anymore; ring the bridge and let Obama know that we've landed the house on someone's ambition and we're going to have to fight the flying monkeys to get home.

  •  Who knows? Probably both. (6+ / 0-)

    Most likely, we will have to wait for the work of a talented biographer to unwrap the mystery of Hillary Clinton.  The face that a person presents to the public is different from the one she presents to those closest, and neither is necessarily the "real" one.  Deep down, most of us are pretty mundane and driven by all too human motivations and our lives shaped by contingency and circumstance.

    Like you, I have been absolutely horrified by how this primary has played out, particularly Hillary's decision to go kamikaze on the Democratic Party.  

    Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

    by johnny rotten on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:09:01 PM PDT

  •  I haven't forgiven Tipper... (5+ / 0-)

    ...and I don't know why you or others have either.  She has hardly surrendered the nanny-state industry she in large part created, and we all suffer for that.

    What on earth has she done to redeem that?

    (Goo is among my five favorite albums of all time - and I still have my vinyl copy.)

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:09:02 PM PDT

    •  I used to have (0+ / 0-)

      an anti-PMRC t-shirt that had Tipper Gore with a Hitler mustache. Thinking back I don't know why the mustache thing seemed ok.

      •  Well, that was clearly over-the-top... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        ...but I still don't understand why her legacy is now redeemed in the eyes of so many.

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

        by Jay Elias on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:13:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Because She Lost (4+ / 0-)

          Like in most culture war battles, she lost.

          It's easier to be gracious to the losers.  

          [Yes, I know, there are labels on albums, but they mostly serve to alert kids which albums are perceived as cool, not to censor material.]

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by Dana Houle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:17:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Looking back (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            It seems like one of those moments in the Culture Wars that did very little to actually shape American culture.  It seems like a speedbump.  It's hard to still get worked up over it after all this time.

            Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

            by johnny rotten on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:19:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Frank Zappa Schooled Them (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Walmart didn't need labels to determine what albums not to stock.  And the music industry was committed to hari-kari regardless of whether the PMRC ever existed.  

              The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

              by Dana Houle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:23:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I disagree here.... (0+ / 0-)

              ...she was the beginning of a significant move by the Democrats to the right in the culture wars.  Her particular battle might have been small, but the impact of her leading it was not.

              The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

              by Jay Elias on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:27:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree that (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DemocraticLuntz, blueness, Mbuto

                it was a significant moment politically.  Culturally, I can't see what impact it had. Music, Radio, TV got raunchier.  Video games got more violent.  The Internet opened the floodgates.  

                Kids today have WAY more access to violent and sexual movies, games, albums, etc., than we ever did as children.  

                Ultimately, I think the PMRC episode demonstrate how futile these sorts of political efforts are in changing the tides of culture.

                Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

                by johnny rotten on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:47:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah, That's Why I Say They Lost (4+ / 0-)

                  There's definitely a strong political movement against open expression, but they keep losing over and over again.  They lose because there's too much money to be made by producing what the cultural rightwingers deem offensive.  

                  Interesting (at least to me) fact: the money people in the porn industry lean Republican.  

                  The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                  by Dana Houle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:50:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Well... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  ...of course, this is where things get complicated.  Yes, culture got rauchier, but in odd ways.  People like David Milch and David Chase were forced to go to pay cable.  Music got rauchier but driven off the airwaves, mostly, with rap forced to put out its best and most vital material on mixtapes rather than proper albums (which some jurisdictions are working with the record labels to shut down).  

                  Of course, the consequences go much further.  With Democrats embracing nanny-state policies, similarly intended and futile measures such as smoking and transfat bans have been enacted.  The PMRC movement was also an important precursor to the wholehearted embrace by Democrats of the War on (some) Drugs.

                  I could go on and on, but I feel that for a long time, the bad effects of the anti-liberty position the Democratic Party staked out beginning in the late 80s has had tremendous impact, which we understate.

                  The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                  by Jay Elias on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:56:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  How has she lost? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Sure, her initial campaign failed.  But the fight she started didn't end there.  Sen. Clinton, who isn't far away from being President, is one of the many elected officials to follow her example and campaign on issues like the censorship of video games.  With her encouragement, most of the biggest cultural retailers, Wal-Mart, National Amusements, et al, have been able to force widespread censorship.  With her broaching censorship as an issue where Democrats are on the same side as Republicans, we've been given an FCC so capricious and heavy-handed that FOX is blatanly refusing to pay its fines.

            All of this can be traced back to her contributions, for which we've seen no apology or reverse.

            The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

            by Jay Elias on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:25:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, I've laways had a problem with her (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kalmoth, DemocraticLuntz

      too damed "tea and biscuits" for me.  I was raised on Zappa and Beefheart and Kuppferburg; thank god, my youth occurred before she had a chance to suppress it.

      •  Kuppferburg (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        "The Ten Co-maaaaaaaannnnnnddddddddmmmmmeeeennnnnntttttssssss/
        The Ten Coooommmaaaaaannnnnndddddmmmmeeennntttssss.

        Thou shalt not kill/
        Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's ass/
        Thou shalt not kill/
        Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's ass...

        The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

        by Dana Houle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:25:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I don't think the Clintons have changed at (5+ / 0-)


    We have changed.  The Clintons built a career on creating the impression that were really liberals, but had to pretend to be moderate in order to get elected.  And if you step back, there are things in their administration to admire, things like the EITC that tend to get underappreciated.

    Times have changed.  We no longer believe we need to move to the center to win.  And so the excuses that they would offer for something like welfare reform or voting for the AUMF now seem phoney.  

  •  The health care debacle (4+ / 0-)

    That's a clue as to the way she was even back then. Sad part is -- I think she actually is smarter than Bill. Her character defect swamps her intelligence and, I believe, a genuine desire to be effective for change. She's her own worst enemy, more so than any Right wing Conspiracist.

    •  Washington creates compassion fatigue and (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      witchamakallit, lightfoot

      encourages obsession with power.Thats why we need term limits and more checks and balances.

      These guys and gals we send to D.C. forget where they came from.That get pissed at us when we remind them. They actually come to believe that they know what is best for us.There are no good reasons why we don't have health care, just bad excuses.

      Hillary is hard working and smart but she has the DLC mindset that thinks she knows best.

      Obama believes in empowering people. He learned that from his mother and from being a community organizer.He can be arrogant because he is so bright (genius IQ)and impatient but I believe him to be sincere. He will make mistakes and I think he will learn from them.He has already learned a lot on this campaign.

      •  I think you hit the nail (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        on the head

        The biggest difference between them is that Clinton wants us to give Her the job, Barack wants us to elect him so that We can take back control of our country.

        In terms of being accountable to the American people I believe Barack will be much more concerned with us, the little guys.  

        Clinton doesn't give a shit about us, and she never has.  I believe "screw 'em Bill" is how she put it.

  •  She is not a fighter (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theran, lightfoot, Mbuto

    A true fighter would not capitulate to and emulate the disdainful style of the Republicans.  A true fighter would try to change the system that is amenable to the attacks of the VRWC.

    Before this election I used to empathize with her, but not anymore.

  •  She's a Victim of her Experience (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theran, lauramp, txdemfem, teyigdhk

    Success didn't ruin her, her Experience ruined her.

    Her idealism is gone.  She can only understand Washington through the prism of the system. She's incapable of imagining fundamental root level change; rather she things change can happen within the system, while the system itself is what's wrong with the change.

    She's a terrible judge of talent who doesn't rely on her own instincts often enough.  

    She's essentially everything that's wrong with the Democratic Party and Washington now. She's been through the meatgrinder and came out the other side ground up... she'll never be what she once was. Because I didn't know of her in Arkansas, I can't pass judgement on how she was before, but after reading about her time at the Rose Law Firm, I'm skeptical of whether or not she ever had a true moral center.

    I know she has good in her, but she also has raw political appetites, and those are things voters recognize over time, for good or for bad.  And worst for her, an Appetite does not Make A Skill.

    In the final analysis, she has no one to blame but herself.  She should have ran in 2004... but she chickened out.  She would have beaten Bush.  Her window was closed... and now its time for change.

    •  You've hit the nail on the head. (0+ / 0-)

      She should have ran in 2004... but she chickened out.  She would have beaten Bush.  Her window was closed...

      Yes, she would have beaten Bush.  She would've fought back at everything Rove could throw at her. Chimpy was already handicapped by the disastrous war and his mal-administration's incompetence; with the smear machine neutralized, she could pound him on his abysmal record.  She would've won.

      She held back, partly because of the fear of an incumbent -- but more than that (IMHO) because she thought it was too soon.  She thought she needed more "seasoning" in the Senate so she wouldn't be vulnerable to the "inexperience" charge.

      Then Obama ran.  He didn't hold back out of fear of being called inexperienced.  He went for it.  

      No wonder she's bitter.

      McCain '08: Same crap, different asshole. -- Hunter

      by snazzzybird on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:43:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  She's clearly always been driven. (7+ / 0-)

    And exceptionally bright.

    I suspect that she really hasn't changed all that much, but the circumstances have.

    When she entered this presidential race I'm convinced that she really believed it would be a cakewalk - that she was, indeed, the presumptive nominee.

    Her vote on Iraq had inoculated her from criticism by the right, and by those she thought would be the leading Democratic contenders, Kerry, Edwards, Biden, and Dodd, all of whom voted to authorize the war. Never, in her wildest imagination, did she envision Obama as a potential serious challenger.

    Having spent decades in Bill's shadow, committing herself to his success, this was to be Hillary's chance to shine - to prove she was every bit as capable, if not more so, than her husband.

    Barack so rewrote the narrative that I don't think she has a clue as to how to proceed without resorting to the nastiness that served her so well in her battles with the GOP.  This was supposed to be a campaign where experience was the primary characteristic voters were looking for. Instead, voters are demanding change.

    Having run on her husband's record, and on her 35 years of experience, including her connections with everyone in Washington, there really was no way to present herself as a symbol of change.

    Because of the public's thorough rejection of Bush and GOP policies, the Democratic primary campaign has almost supplanted the general election.  Whoever is the Democratic nominee is more likely than not going to be the next president.  So this is for all the marbles, and it's clearly her last chance.

    If Barack wins, Hillary will be 68 years old and largely irrelevant before the next opportunity for a shot at the White House occurs. So yes, she's become bitter and vindictive, blinded by her own ambition.

    There's my totally amateurish analysis of it all.

    •  that's good, I think you're exactly right (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and, reading that, I did feel a little pity for her

      And, I know she's looking for the pity vote right now, too.

      But, are we going to elect a president who cares more about their own ego than the way their decisions affect the American people?

      She is reckless.

      4,000 americans have died in Iraq, Hundreds of thousands have Brain injuries, ptsd

      And she voted Iran?!!

      No, No, she has no ethics, she has no standards.

      HRC reminds me of Bush in that I'm pretty sure she would throw me under a bus if it was useful to her.

  •  In my alcohol-induced state, how should I know? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theran, begone

    I was 4 years old at the time you're talking about.

    Now I'm in an alcohol-induced state. Clearly, times change.

  •  Always (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peraspera, Mbuto, Alohilani

    So, here's my question for you: has Hillary always been this way, or did success ruin her?

    Look at her history:

    [1] She only spent one year at Children's Defense Fund.  It was merely a resume item.

    [2] She was on the board of WalMart and clearly anti-union.

    [3] It was Hillary Clinton who played the race-card to resuscitate Bill Clinton's career by bring in Jesse Helms operative Dick Morris.

    Hillary Clinton came from a privilege background and a REPUBLICAN household.  She's not working class; she's NO Democrat; and SHE NEVER WAS!

    •  BULLSHIT (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Yes... I know this is from her site... but if you really wanted to know the truth and not just the gdub meaning of truth .. then I am sure you could do better than the crap you spewed above.

      What the fuck does it matter if her family was repub or not.?

      Do you know that MARKOS was a repug?  Did you know that MARKOS was in the .. oh NO!... Military?!  Did you know that MARKOS voted for repugs?  Did you know that MARKOS has stated that the most of the people inb the CIA are "liberals"?  Did you know that MARKOS wanted to work with the CIA?

      .... All of this is TRUE!

      My dad and step mom were hardcore repugs, but my oldest brother was a big Vietnam protester and I am very much a liberal Democrat.

      You comments are absolute CRAP.

  •  Hillary's time as First Lady of Arkansas? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HL Mungo, begone

    I was wondering how much the Clinton's experiences during Bill's time as governor plays into their current mindset. I mean, he won office in 1978, and narrowly lost in 1980, all before he hit 35. I wonder if that freaked them out enough that they swore to do whatever it takes to win.

  •  The woman is who she... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alba, Alohilani

    ...has always been. The veneer has finally worn thin enough for the wormwood to show through proving she is just another bush...or shrub.

    The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. George Santayana

    by Bobjack23 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:31:19 PM PDT

  •  After 12 Years... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alba, Mbuto, Alohilani

    ...of drinking Reagan/Bush sand, the Clintons sure looked like an oasis of spring water.

    Trouble was, much like our national water supply, it was laced with mind-altering pharmaceuticals.

    She's always been like this. In the zeal to reject George H. W. Bush a lot of people never saw that.

    "The game's easy, Harry" - Richie Ashburn

    by jpspencer on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:32:11 PM PDT

    •  Well I Think When They Fell Behind They Went to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      some people and made some big promises, so that they would never be the oasis they seemed like they'd be in the beginning.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:50:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  In 92, I drove and waited for hours .. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    .. to hear Bill speak.

    Every minute was worth it; he was wonderful. I believe Hillary was there too; if so, she just waved hello to the crowd.

    This time it's personal.

    by apostrophe on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:38:46 PM PDT

  •  Was it Brent Scowcroft who said when asked (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnny rotten, x, blueness, Alohilani

    if Cheney had changed, "People don't change, they just reveal themselves."

    The prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad; For the multitude of thy iniquity And the great hatred...

    by Tirge Caps on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:52:45 PM PDT

  •  always been that way. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DHinMI, blueness, Mbuto, Alohilani

    go back to that "cookies and tea" clip, and don't just listen to her condescension, but also watch her body language at that point.  It truly is all about her wonderfulness.

    And then, with that body language in mind, watch her lies about the Bosnian trip.  The whole "if a country is too dangerous or remote, they send the First lady" shit is borne right out from that snooty old cookies and tea mentality: "I really am something, aren't I?"

    "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you can succeed." -Nancy Pelosi, 6/29/07.

    by nailbender on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:53:24 PM PDT

    •  as a woman that clip has always Really offended (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:


      Some women like to stay home and bake cookies HRC!

      Some women Choose to be stay at home moms, it doesn't make them any less of a woman or human being.

      And, I noticed she did in fact stand by her man, maybe if only out of ambition

  •  I didn't learn (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    The term MILF until about '93 or '94. Nonetheless, this was long before most Americans were introduced to it in American Pie.

  •  Cattle futures point to the reality (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mbuto, Alohilani

    that she was always a corrupt trashy political huckster.

  •  She's 2nd gen (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DHinMI, x, Potalian, Mbuto, Alohilani

    There's a phenomenon in successful, family owned businesses.  In the first generation, the man or woman starts a business and builds it into something really impressive.  The first generation has the capacity to recognize opportunities, overcome obstacles, and build the coalitions necessary to succeed, otherwise, they wouldn't have built a successful enterprise in the first place.

    The second generation, when they take over, generally maintains the status quo.  They grew up somewhat pampered and never really had to suffer and strive the way their parents did, and thus lack the qualities of determination, imagination, and most important, humility that are the result of having to overcome these things.  Thus, they have a sense of entitlement, and are fairly conservative in their approaches to new problems.

    However, the second generation did grow up as the business was being built, and they get a front row seat to its operation.  They often have greater facility with managing the coalitions that have been built by the first gen, even if they lack the ability to build their own.

    In my mind, this describes Hillary to a "T."  I've never seen her build a coalition necessary to get anything new or exciting done.  She tried with healthcare, and was an abysmal failure at it.  Those of us who advocate UHC and the progressive side of the Clinton administration in general would have been better off if she'd never tried in the first place.  But, if you give her a ready-made coalition, she can hold it together and use it to her political advantage in a way that few other politicians can match.

    The problem is, in this election, she's facing off with a first gen political "businessman" whose enterprise is specifically designed to build coalitions that can overcome and out-compete hers.  The "business" is failing, and when you combine that with a 2nd gener's sense of entitlement, you get all the bitterness and hostility that you see.  The established business will go so far as to engage in monopolistic practices, such as sucking up the Democratic party GOTV and organization infrastructure and resources and shutting out the competition, accusing the competitor of unfair practices, resort to lies and distortion of the competitor's integrity, customer service, product reliability, and so forth, and finally go so far as to undermine the entire market in order to prevent losing its share of the market.

    While the voices of dissent are many, reason has but one voice. -lizardbox

    by Nellebracht on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:15:33 PM PDT

    •  wait, clinton has done this? (0+ / 0-)

      such as sucking up the Democratic party GOTV and organization infrastructure and resources and shutting out the competition

      •  She did it in Pennsylvania (0+ / 0-)

        And she's become rather (in)famous for relying on the party machinery that already exists in state, as opposed to building her own.  Obama's had to build his own.  And, like the Japanese taking out most of our battleships in the Pacific at Pearl Harbor, this has turned out to be a good thing for the home team in the long run.

        While the voices of dissent are many, reason has but one voice. -lizardbox

        by Nellebracht on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:26:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Like she's a K-car (0+ / 0-)

      & Obama is a Prius.

      I see the Clintons as damaged goods.  He's a ACOA who had to save his Mom from drunken beatings by his step father, & was abandoned by his biological father.  They are too inclined to personal drama & crisis plays.  

      Being "vetted" by a lifetime of beatings and humiliation is like mistaking PTSD for leadership.

      They started losing me during the Dean campaign.  This year my affection for them is severed.  

      She was always as she is now.  Bitter and vindictive.  She has many of Bill's flaws & none of his charm.  Sadly, his charm has also fallen away in her shadow.

      Her POTUS campaign has seriously tarnished the Clinton brand.

      •  I don't want to trash her (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        She's got a lot of fine qualities as well.  But I will say she's not a "winner."  She hasn't won anything that hasn't been handed to her on a silver platter.  Now, this doesn't mean she's a loser, because she handles what she gets handed pretty well.  And I'm sure she and her supporters are feeling pretty cheated, because they thought she would get handed the nomination, and it turns out she has to compete for it with a real "winner."  

        When you give someone hand-outs, like political domination within a party, for a long enough time, eventually, they come to expect it.  When you threaten to take it away, they feel cheated, even if they never really had any right to expect it in the first place.  Republicans make this point all the time, but they typically use it to attack things like retirement security, public schools and healthcare, among others.  In those cases, there's a legitimate public question as to whether we have a right to expect those things, and compelling reasons to think we do.  But when it comes to public office, that should never be any sort of entitlement, except to the person who wins the most votes in the election that actually decides the matter.

        While the voices of dissent are many, reason has but one voice. -lizardbox

        by Nellebracht on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:38:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This Is Inaccurate (0+ / 0-)

        & was abandoned by his biological father

        His biological father died in a car accident three months before he was born.  

        The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

        by Dana Houle on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:26:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry, you are inaccurate...actually way beyond (0+ / 0-)

          He was abandoned by his biological father at
          the age of two ~ his biological father died in 1982, while he was driving drunk.  He had already lost both of his legs in an earlier "drunk driving" accident.

          How could you have this so wrong?  And how do you so assuredly accuse the previous poster of inaccuracy?  What else might you have wrong or not be aware of...hmm?  I thought you only spread "misinformation" about Hillary...

          •  Go Argue With Bill Clinton (0+ / 0-)

            At Hope, the former president took 60 Minutes to the cemetery where both his mother and his biological father, William Jefferson Blythe, were buried – and told Rather why he always feels comfortable there.

            "I never felt cemeteries were bad or morbid places. I think they’re places of homecoming and keep the ties going," says Mr. Clinton.

            Bill Clinton had two fathers: The abusive Roger Clinton, and Blythe, his biological father who died before Clinton was even born.
            Mr. Clinton recalls Blythe’s death: "Mother came home here because she was pregnant with me. And he was coming down to get her and he was killed on a highway. His tire blew out on a wet highway and he was thrown into a drainage ditch in Missouri, and he was actually not injured all that badly but he was knocked out and he drowned in the ditch."

            How could you have this so wrong?  And how do you so assuredly accuse me of inaccuracy?  What else might you have wrong or not be aware of...hmm?  I thought you only spread "misinformation" about...

            Look, it's fine if you want to be stupid.  But you should really think twice before you chose to do it in public.

            The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

            by Dana Houle on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 04:07:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I think some time needs to pass DHinMI (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    x, begone, DemocraticLuntz

    before we are able to look at things in the cold analytical light that is required to examine the question you put forth.  

    Rooting for Democrats!!!

    by SquirmyRooter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:35:20 PM PDT

  •  ewww! (0+ / 0-)

    HRC a milf

    oh god, thanks a lot man, that gave me Bad mental pictures!

    I don't know, I've never liked HRC, partly because of the way she treated some women throughout her life, partly because she seems so opportunistic and conniving.  I honestly tried to like her in the beginning of this election, I tried really hard because I really wanted her to be the first female president, but I'm pretty sure she's evil in the sense that she will do evil things if that's what it takes to "win."  IMO there's no excuse for doing anything evil.  

    After bush, I am not comfortable with putting another vain and morally devoid person in the white house.  Our next president has to actually feel personally beholden to the american people and our experience living in this country.  

    She is just not in the same class as Obama.  She's a great politician, she knows how to play the game.  But we want more than that in a president.  We've had enough politicians as presidents, we need a LEADER, a statesman.  We need another great president, not just a token anything.

    She's just not in the same class.

  •  Even though I came to hate Hillary... (0+ / 0-)

    I'm starting to hate the Hillary hating... and politics in general. There has to be more to life than this shit. I'll tune back in in november.

    I learned French because I like the language. I'm learning Spanish because I like the people who speak it.

    by Vengeur on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:01:09 AM PDT

  •  Snipers ruined her... (0+ / 0-)

  •  Clinton Still is, as a Person, Still OK (0+ / 0-)

    But now we all have a lot more experience with the Clinton Family machine.  In early 1993 I saw Vic Sher -- then director of the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund -- embrace former Indiana Congressman Jim Jontz.  Both were in ecstacy over how great it was going to be to have an environmentalist like Bill Clinton in the White House.  We all saw what that got us, and saw it fairly quickly.  And after NAFTA and WTO and Welfare Reform and the toe-sucking Dick Morris we all really started to wake up.

    Hillary Clinton continues to surround herself with these same people -- the Mickey Kantors, the James Carvilles, the Ron Browns.  These are disgusting elitist greed heads who turn the stomach of someone like Robert Reich, or even Brad DeLong, who is less sold out and cynical.

    Hillary is a pretty hip woman.  Have you ever stayed in the Chelsea Hotel?  I have.  She named her daughter after that hotel because it was in a pretty good Joni Mitchell song.

    But her career arc is almost a cliche of the Big Chill.  Ironic, hey, since that movie was about graduates of the U of M.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:33:03 AM PDT

  •  It's difficult for me to admit that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    at the beginning of this year I was planning to vote for her. I definitely feel she has changed. What happened to the woman who railed against the 'vast right-wing conspiracy', now she sits down for a pleasant hour-long discussion with Richard Mellon-Scaife. The woman who spoke eloquently in defense of children votes for AUMF, Kyl-Lieberman, and wants to commit overwhelming forces against Iran if they get into a dispute with another totalitarian regime in the region. A lot of folks think the evidence was always there - but I still think she has changed (I now know what the people of CT have gone through).

    Love that "power of the purse!" It looks so nice up there on the mantle (and not the table) next to the "subpoena power."

    by Sacramento Dem on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:08:37 AM PDT

  •  I think your writing style in this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DHinMI, blueness, Petey2

    personal diary is quite a bit different as what we usually see from you. I admit I can't put that surprise out of my head as fast as I would want to. :-)

    I think "what she has become" was always there, just not revealed clearly enough, because it wasn't challenged out of her.

    If you study her biography and watch some video footage of her and study some body language, you will "see" it.

    I give you a most probably not very convincing example, but to me it's one that makes the case.

    There was a very much ignored fact in last night's debate about how she would handle the Middle East and Iran:

    I think that we should be looking to create an umbrella of deterrence that goes much further than just Israel. Of course I would make it clear to the Iranians that an attack on Israel would incur massive retaliation from the United States, but I would do the same with other countries in the region. You know, we are at a very dangerous point with Iran.

    A NATO-style commitment for the countries in the Middle East, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan ... with which countries would she end her commitments?

    Ms. Maddow on Keith Olberman later judged this remark as a "huge reorientation of America's foreign policy and America's role in the world" introduced by Hillary Clinton.

    I just give this as an example, because I actually don't think that this statement during the debate was a reorientation of Hillary's foreign policy view points, I think these view points have been with her since a very long time. She just revealed them to us and, interestingly, nobody seems to wonder about it. What does this tell you about other Democrats?

    Hillary Clinton hasn't become something new, she is an authoritarian, believing in American exceptionalism, elitism and leadership role as much as any "good 'ol American conservative", spiced up with some social conscience. That doesn't make her  much of a Democrat, it doesn't make her worse than other Democrats or better than most Republicans. As so many other Democrats, she isn't much of one.

    Complaining that she works against the Democratic Party is somewhat useless, because the Democratic Party doesn't represent a body of policies that is so clearly defined that you can work against it. It's amorph and constantly changing dependent on who has the say in the party and in Congress. Unfortunately. In this country you are forced to pick personalities instead of parties. Would be nice if we got a leader who would address that and change it, construct a real party platform and party organization that you could hold people accountable to or that you could demand people to adhere to.

  •  I honestly think you should delete this. (7+ / 0-)

    This diary is pretty sexist and I don't really think it has a place on a progressive blog. I'd love to disagree with all the Clinton supporters who are going to have a field day with it, but I can't. I think your comments here have crossed a line.

  •  what a (0+ / 0-)

    friggin jerk you are!

    This diary is worthy of the garbage can.

    Thanks, ahead of time, for troll rating me...

  •  You should (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raboof, Predictor, rigso

    lose your front page status because of this diary.

  •  and to think (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Predictor, rigso, carllaw, PamelaD

    all of you...

    Terri, Phoenix Woman, assyrian64, Dump Terry McAuliffe, Jim in Chicago, theran, HL Mungo, muledriver, kosophile, mayan, MKS, jaywillie, mistersite, kalmoth, truthbearer, plum, DemocraticLuntz, Kyle the Mainer, rontun, NMLib, bhagamu, earicicle, heliosfootball, Tim Kraft, Knight Rider, independo, Mbuto, winsock, pinback, Alohilani

    ... think this diary is worthy of a rec'd.

    very sad.

  •  My god but you disgust me (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Predictor, rigso, PamelaD

    is this what we've come to?

    "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

    by denise b on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 03:15:51 PM PDT

  •  We were desperate for a Dem president (0+ / 0-)

    in 1992 and we all convinced ourselves to overlook the flaws and focus on what we thought to be the Clintons' good points (intelligence, apparent support of Democratic causes). And then we failed to understand Bill Clinton's politics in the 1990s (and by extension Hillary Clinton's) because the Republicans were so vicious and off the wall and because we really did not understand the consequences of the policies championed by the Clintons (like free trade with the rules written by the multinationals).

    And now, stripped of their Republican foils, we see the Clintons' politics for what they truly are and it's not pretty. I think that it is we who have changed in our perceptions and the Clintons have simply revealed themselves to us. Perhaps we would have known earlier if the Democratic field in 1992 had not been so weak and there had been a true progressive alternative to Bill Clinton in 1992 but that was a flaky field (Bob Kerrey, Jerry Brown, Paul Tsongas, Tom Harkin).

  •  A defense of this diary (plus video) (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    One of the nastier pieces of residue from the culture wars is that certain buzz words or even just an aesthetic tone serve as a dog whistle that sets the warriors fighting. Most Americans are sick and tired of fascist rules that attempt to dictate what's off-limits. DHinMI is writing a specific sort of memoir to make a specific point. If all you get out of the piece is that it's sexist, you're reading with blinders on and reacting to buzz words.

    If it doesn't speak to you, don't read it. Guess what? When the gals on The View go ga-ga over George Clooney, I'm not particularly interested either. And guess what? I don't watch it.

    As to the content of the diary. The following video serves as a good reminder (to me anyway) of why I was never impressed with Hillary (or found her attractive -- in any sense). From the beginning she's been plastic, phony, patronizing, and untrustworthy.

  •  Hillry should have kept the headband (0+ / 0-)

    it's all been downhill ever since she lost the headband.

    Bitter up, Play Ball!

    by VelvetElvis on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:45:56 PM PDT

  •  the sexism in this diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roberta g, beijingbetty

    is just sad & gross.

    "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -Carl Sagan

    by astronautagogo on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:49:28 PM PDT

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