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Why is our Democratic Presidential candidate being selected, according to all the pundits, by "white, working-class, voters"?  Aren't these what we call Reagan Democrats?

Aren't these the people whom we refer to as "low-information" voters?  People who historically can't identify their own interest?  People who vote on the basis of beer, and bowling?  People who, in spite of every indication to the contrary, in spite of both historical and current trends, lose their shirt every time a Republican is elected to the Presidency?

I spent several hours on Friday digging around both the US Census site, and the University of Michigan site, trying to find out who these people are.  The information is there, of course, but without the funding, the voter lists the party has accumulated over the past decades, and many hours of dedicated effort, I will not be able to tease the data to gain any further understanding of the "facts" that media pundits, and talking heads throw around with such facility.

There is a report circulating this morning that 53% of whites without a college education, in Indiana, will not vote for Obama.  This is not surprising.  This is a core group of Republican voters, in a Red State, that has voted for the Republican candidate since 1964.  These are the folks who are suffering the most from the divisive tactics of modern politics, but who do not have the skills, or investment, to see beyond the TV ads, and their own limited world view.

Interestingly, a new poll is reporting that Clinton's approval ratings among these voters is only 43%.  This is clearly a group that will not vote for the Democrat.

Why then, are their opinions being touted as definitive, or even worthy of comment in the Democratic Primary, unless the media is so determined to block an Obama victory that they will grasp at any bit of information to influence the low information voter?  "People like you don't vote for Obama!", is the subtext.  The real message, and the facts on the ground, drum the message that, "Folks like you don't vote for the Democrat!".

So, CNN's Howie Kurtz is devoting time to the manufactured "shock and outrage" over Hannah Montana showing her belly to a photographer.  The MSNBC Idiots are still frothing over Reverend Wright, while wringing their hands over the "effect this "ongoing scandal" will have on Obama's campaign".  And, both make continued references to those "White, working class Republican voters" who will derail the Democrat's hopes.

As a Cognitive Psychologist, I have long been annoyed at the violative language used by media.  Any educated reader, or listener, will discern personal bias, corporate intent, and water carrying for the power brokers, designed to maintain the status quo.  I'm quite used to the blood pressure raising distortion of information created by selective commentary, video loops, and the coy choice of adjectives employed.  I see these paraded daily.

But.  This is the first time I have ever seen Republican voters being used to shape the opinion of Democratic voters in a Democratic Primary.  Shaped by using group identification and base ignorance, to lay the ground work for a Republican victory in November.

UPDATE:  This diary is not about you.  This diary is not about voters.  This diary is about the media portrayal of voters for their own nefarious ends.

 

Originally posted to Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:08 AM PDT.

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    Hidden by:
    andydoubtless

    if I have any hope of surviving through November.  This is making me CRAZY!!

    No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

    by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:09:36 AM PDT

    •  Why do they count (19+ / 0-)

      Republicans in Democratic Primary polling?

      I could almost understand polling independents in Open Primaries/Caucuses, but what about closed P/Cs?

      I see that Indiana is Open, but do they poll GOP, say, in NC where it is a closed primary?

        •  Don't they adjust for that? (5+ / 0-)

          But even including one Republican in a poll in a closed state seems, well, useless data.

        •  Are they counting the registered Dems who (14+ / 0-)

          vote Repub nationally in every election??  I live and work among them.  Lots of them.  They aren't all uneducated either BUT they are low-info voters.  Lots are Catholic (my co-workers here in Central Pa). It's mystifying.

          •  Yes baken (6+ / 0-)

            I know a few of them as well. They just never got around to changing their voter registration affiliation. And here in PA with a closed primary, it involves filling out a registration form and mailing it or dropping it at the County Election Office. So they end up voting in the Democratic primary but they consistently vote for Republicans in General Elections.

            I know a couple who voted for Hillary in the primary but they intend to vote for McCain in November no matter Who is the Democratic Nominee.

            Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

            by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:13:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Same in KY as well (5+ / 0-)

            Never pay attention to news, vote in Dem closed Primaries but then vote EVERY TIME for the Repub candidate in the election!

            I attempt to have them switch parties but they are insistent to stay in the Democratic party--it's mind blowing!

            "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

            by Wary on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:29:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

              •  White, working-class voters (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DocbytheBay

                Following the Pennsylvania Democratic primary, National Public Radio interviewed Obama's chief campaign strategist, David Axelrod, about Hillary Clinton's advantage with working class voters. Axelrod responded,

                "The white working class has gone to the Republican nominee for many elections, going back even to the Clinton years. This is not new that Democratic candidates don't rely solely on those votes."

                Perhaps Axelrod has forgotten that the ignoring of that white working class, those whom Sen. Jim Webb has called the Reagan Democrats, is a major reason why we've had the string of Republican presidents we've had.

                ABC News reported Bill Clinton's reaction, as he campaigned for Hillary among voters in North Carolina:

                "Today her opponent's campaign strategist said, well, we don't really need these working class people to win, half the time they vote for Republicans anyways. And I will tell you something, America needs you to win and therefore Hillary wants your support."

        •  It is like the pundits (22+ / 0-)

          describing Obama losing the "Catholic" votes in Pennsylvania w/o even exploring the truth which was that Hillary overwhelming won the older woman vote.  (Obama has scored evenly with Catholics in other states)                                                                                                                                                                                            It is like listening to Joe Scarborough (a corporate, right-wing, bigot) and his sidekick, Meek-uhh, "I love John McCain too", trying to analyse  blue-collar, white "Democrats" and "Independents" from his little corporate, right-wing haven in Pensacola.  The Tampa Bay/I-4 corridor of Florida determines Presidential elections and Obama has one hell of alot of "Independents" waiting in the wings for him to start campaigning and hitting our many and huge state universities this fall.    The corrupt asshats!  

          Catholic, white woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (endorsed 12/06)

          by mjd in florida on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:08:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I really hope Obama's making this case to the SDs (6+ / 0-)

            You've been pointing it out for awhile

            The Tampa Bay/I-4 corridor of Florida determines Presidential elections

            but the trad med seems to conveniently ignore it; this is a great point as well

            and Obama has one hell of alot of "Independents" waiting in the wings for him to start campaigning and hitting our many and huge state universities this fall

            I just don't see HRC doing well there in a GE against "The Maverick*", at all, esp. given the media bias.

            P.S.  Another key area is NE WISC. (Green Bay was top 3 media market in '04, along with Tampa and Columbus) -- Obama crushes there; Hillary is electoral death for down-ballot Dems.

            •  So many of our "Independents" (5+ / 0-)

              have registered that way over the years because they despised the Clinton and Bush administrations for their nasty devisiveness, their corrupt, corporate/MIC ties and their political ploys.  (Bill Clinton's behavior in our White House with a girl more than young enough to be his own daughter totally turned off many adolescents/teens at the time too)  Kerry, sadly,  avoided these crucial voters and never bothered going after them.   That age bracket has widened over the years and Obama will do much better than Hillary would have EVER done. (even after Hillary's "scorched earth" policy)                                                                                                                                               Good news is that my youngest son, graduating from FSU and 4 of his friends switched their registration to "Dem" over spring break in case if Florida decided to do a re-vote.

              Catholic, white woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (endorsed 12/06)

              by mjd in florida on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:55:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You made my night mjd - thank you for sharing, th (0+ / 0-)

                that is

                Good news is that my youngest son, graduating from FSU and 4 of his friends switched their registration to "Dem" over spring break in case if Florida decided to do a re-vote

                Very good news indeed.  Thank you.

          •  Joe Scarborough calls Clinton (7+ / 0-)

            His 'GIRLFRIEND" he loves her sooo much!

            the right wingers are loving her--this is in the National Review:

            She's entering the culture war as a general. All of this has made her a far more formidable general election candidate. She's fighting the left and she's capturing the center. She's denounced MoveOn.org. She's become the Lieberman of the Democratic Party. The left hates her and treats her like Lieberman. . . . Obama is distancing himself from Wright and Hillary is getting in touch with O'Reilly. The culture war has come to the Democratic Party.

            http://www.weeklystandard.com/...

            This is getting very serious--Old Pat Buchanan admires her and says she's going to 'win' by going to the RIGHT of McCain, which she is already and in the midst of it all, with her 'obliterate' Iran comment, as well as others. It appears she running against the Democratic Party.

            "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

            by Wary on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:36:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I suppose I'm one of those, I'm a white man (17+ / 0-)

          w/o a collage degree, that will have a tough time voting for Obama, but contrary to the collected wisdom on here, is a registered democrat, who DID NOT vote for saint ronnie. Do you think I'm the only one? Maybe, but I don't think so.

          Damn I miss John Edwards!

          by ichibon on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:34:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have some difficulty in (24+ / 0-)

            understanding why anyone would personalize a critique of the media.  It's not about the voters, Ichibon, and certainly not about you.  It's about an observed media slant in selectively using a voter block to create a view of the Democratic Primary that feeds into the November election.

            No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

            by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:39:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Because it's ichibon that's the target (9+ / 0-)

              of the stereotyping the media develops about Indiana and has to suffer for it.  Who wants to be pigeonholed by the media, or anyone for that matter, into a cartoon image, rather than being addressed as a complex individual who is unique?

            •  Granny doc (0+ / 0-)

              "Here we go again",Granny. I thought I had some understanding of cognitive psychology but I certainly don`t see it in your writing. If I understand you,I see you as more of a behavioral psychologist---stimulus/response--kinda of person.You determine what the stimulus means and interpret what the only "logical" response could be.Ichibon had a serious Question for the community and you have to attack. I grew up in a farming community in the midwest.I can tell you,I knew many farmers with very little education who understood political issues and how these issues affected their families and their communities. And they voted for their issues. From your perspective how do you explain why the "low-information (disgusting term),white voter is supporting Hillary? I would think the generalized mantra of HOPE and CHANGE, would be appealing to the low information voter who wouldn`t be able to understand the nuances of political positions or see through MSM adds. Maybe the heuristic aspect of cognitive psychology,i.e.,educated guesses,intuitive judgement and common sense is actually at play here.You think?

              •  Doc, (12+ / 0-)

                I can't address your comment because it is based on a faulty assumption of what a Cognitive Psychologist is, and does.  

                We research human brain function, information structures and application strategies, and the neurological components of human thinking and perception.  We model those functions and predict decision making under various conditions.  We examine the environmental input that exists, and the decisions that result, based on the human brain and the cultural and social qualities that effect those decisions.

                I don't do therapy.  I'm not a Behaviorialist.  I'm a data cruncher, trained in human neurobiology, and computer modeling.

                No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

                by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:13:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Granny Doc (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  suswa, ichibon, Granny Doc

                  Sounds like more of an art than I thought.Your life experience affects your conception of what environmental input is important in a given situation.Predicting decision making seems to be rather subjective. What bothers me about Kos at this point is that it has become an Obarma campaign site. Most posters believe their thinking,perception,and ideas are the only valid conclusion one could entertain. I don`t believe there is only one process to get to an end point nor one correct answere when processing the interrelationship of multiple subjective variables. It angers me when I see the generalized "low information voter" term thrown around (in a derogatory manner) to explain why some people choose not to vote for Obama,i.e.somehow they are less than "those who understand,have the knowledge,and perception" to make the right decisions for the minnions.That sounds a bit like the neo-con philosophy of governing.I am a white,65y.o. male .I have 12 years of post secondary education.I am a Vietnam vet.I am not a low information voter but I am a Hillary supporter for many ,social and personal reasons--non of them having to do with age,gender,race,religion.....I believe my views as well as the views of the so called low information voters are as valid as yours.Maybe we can continue the discussion in Austin while drinking a beer and bowling.lol.

                •  go granny, go granny, go granny, go (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Granny Doc

                  most of us have a problem when someone else holds the mirror.

                  http://www.youtube.com/annonoman

                  by tRueffert on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:17:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  That's easy she is not a repulican and she's not (0+ / 0-)

                black.

                •  ?? (0+ / 0-)

                  I Don`t understand the comment.Please explain.Thanks

                  •  What I am saying is that these white voters may (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    txdemfem

                    be smart enough not to vote for a republican but would never vote for a black person.  Another words there are alot of racists in this country.  Why else would the Reverend Wright story play so well with the racists and bigots of this country.  You might not like it but as a white person who dated a black person I know that many people in this country are racists.  Why else do we see in many of these southern working class uneducated areas so a huge split in the vote.  Explain to me why white states like Oregon, Minn, Wis, Mont etc voted for or will vote for Obama.  Because they are better educated and didn't get brought up where racism is part of the culture.

                    •  Never been to Oregon, huh? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      gdwtch52

                      I live in Oregon, and its not a bastion of Liberal thinking voters, there is racism, just like every other state or country in the entire world. I live near Eugene, and most seem to think everyone here is like the stereotypical media image, but that is far from the truth. We also have farmers, ranchers, construction workers that don't have any higher education and aren't the most enlightened voters.  I think that if you look at our history, you'll find that we've elected repug governors more times than democratic ones, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least, for the our next to be a repug.
                      As for me, if I ever did have any racism in my make-up, I lost it long ago, travel to, and working with other people, in other countries and other cultures, has made me into a completely different person, from what I was  when I left Mississippi,  50 years ago.  

                      Damn I miss John Edwards!

                      by ichibon on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:15:57 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  docbythebay says: (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                txdemfem

                Maybe the heuristic aspect of cognitive psychology, i.e. educated guesses, intuitive judgement and common sense is actually at play here.  You think?

                **Almost certainly not!  Obama-ites are well known to be more highly educated than the average Clinton voter.  They have more cognitive skills, and they use them.

                **Yeah, I'm mad! I've been paying attention.

                by greylox on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:04:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  The GOP is attempting to reclaim (13+ / 0-)

            voters who are moving away from them. As Granny Doc pointed out in her diary, they're seeding the media with stories that read now as "these groups of people won't vote for that liberal Obama, but prefer that conservative Hillary" -- leaving aside the endless irony of Hillary being happy to be called a conservative, only not in so many words -- so that come October, they can sing the same song with the slightly rewritten verse, "these groups of people won't vote for that liberal Democrat, but prefer that conservative Republican." Once again, it's not about the voters; it's about power and politics.

            As Granny Doc says, don't personalize it. As my Grandmother would say, "consider the source."

            Radarlady

          •  I don't know you ichibon, but I do have faith (6+ / 0-)

            that in the end, tough time or no, you'll end up voting for our nominee, even if he/she was not the candidate you supported in the primary process.
              Change is a process, it doesn't happen all at once. Everybody deals with it in their own time and their own way. What's out there in America is what's out there, and it does not dishearten me, quite the contrary, I am happy about the direction we are going in, and that we are actually further along than I would have imagined a short time ago.
               God bless you my brother, do as you feel is best for now, but when you pull that lever or punch that screen for Obama SIX MONTHS FROM TODAY, the World changes, and you sir will be a big part of that change.
               All the best to you!

            "We the People of the United States..." -U.S.Constitution

            by elwior on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:21:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  ichibon (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kpardue

            You`re not.Contrary to the view of our esteemed cognitive psychologist and her followers--education is not synonymous with intelligence,understanding nor the ability to intuitively understand and see through 30 sec. soundbites and media adds. It seems to me that education  ,power and wealth,often leads to a self-serving philosophy with little concern about the welfare of the masses. So don`t be intimidated by the collected (wisdom?)of Daily Kos.

        •  And why does the reporting on Indiana (14+ / 0-)

          seem to always ignore the city and university communities where that more educated populace is gathered in favor of some imagery of a candidate standing on top of a hay bale or at the state fair?

          I understand that in the more rural states the farming community is an essential and important part of the state's economy and voting population, but it always gives the impression that states like Indiana and Iowa are devoid of any non-rural or educated/liberal-leaning groups.

          •  precisely Pk as remember PA (6+ / 0-)

            when the media only concentrated on certain regions and completely ignored the support Obama had in Centre County, home of Penn State ( he won that county in the dead center of the state by 20 pct). The media predicted he would win nothing in the T of the state. He won 3 counties in the T and the media said that did not matter as " no one lives there". Yes CNN actually said that !!!!!

            Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

            by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:19:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  OMG! NYT Reports GOP voters going DEM! (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wishingwell

              ... in Indiana!!!

              Republicans Crossing Voer to Vote in Democratic Contests

              I love comments like these:

              "I used to like John McCain, but he’s aligning himself too closely with what Bush did, and that’s just not what I want for this country," Mrs. Morgan, who is 56, said when asked to explain her rejection of the presumptive Republican nominee.

              "Much as I like John McCain as a war hero, I am fearful he does not have the depth of experience to fix the economy," said Darlene Boatman, 62, a just-retired sales clerk who favors Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. "We’re all struggling here to make ends meet. I haven’t had health care coverage in about 10 years and jobs are fewer and farther between.

              "I would probably not vote, or maybe look at a third party," said Becky Kapsalis, who lives in Carmel, Ind., and describes herself as "a 70-year-old white woman for Barack Obama."

              "I respect McCain for what he’s done, his patriotism and devotion," Ms. Kapsalis said, "but I just don’t think he has the heart to lead us, and he doesn’t speak to my heart the way this Barack Obama man does."

          •  Because, as DocByTheBay so aptly points out, (5+ / 0-)

            most Americans argue for and expect an abstractly high-quality education, but most Americans really don't like highly educated people.

            The anti-intellectualism in this country has been well conceived and well stirred by the Republican (yes- wait  for it..) elite who understand that one of the best methods for controlling people is to limit their access (or interest in) decision-influencing information.

            I'm not a cog. psych., I just play one in a high school, but I understand the difference between the central route and peripheral route to persuasion, cognitive dissonance, mental set, group polarization, deindividuation, need for cognition, and tolerance for ambiguity and a whole bunch of other fancy words. Each of these plays a role in explaining my understanding of why less educated and more educated Americans have had consistently different voting patterns for decades, if not forever.

            Anyone looking one or two of those up will find some interesting ideas to chew on. Or, I could just a write a diary defining each, with links, and explaining how I use each to reach my conclusions about American politics and education.  Hmmm...

            Education is not preparation for life. Education is life itself. -John Dewey

            by elropsych on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:41:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Please do (0+ / 0-)

              Or, I could just a write a diary defining each, with links, and explaining how I use each to reach my conclusions about American politics and education.  Hmmm...

              That which unites us is, must be, stronger than that which divides us. RFK

              by Sinocco on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:08:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe because (11+ / 0-)

        Why do they count Republicans in Democratic Primary polling?

        Rethugs in open primaries are voting for Clinton to skew the results? right around the day of the PA primary someone on NPR was talking about a flood of new Dem registrations. I wonder how many of them were actually Rethugs changing their colors in an effort to sabotage the process?

        Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

        by drewfromct on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:37:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The "Racist Vote" (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bluesee, fou, Granny Doc, sea note, jedennis

        You're right.  The racist vote, and Indiana's Electoral votes, will not go for a Democrat.  Period.

        The "idea" that Obama "has to win" in Indiana is a complete red herring in terms of the general election.  And should remind us again, that it doesn't matter by how large a margin he wins the Dem nomination, it only matters that he gets it.

        In Nov. it will come down to the usual suspects (red state v. blue states) with the odd "swing state" deciding who we get (or are stuck with) for the next four years.

        The racist vote ("white working class") will always go Republican anyway.

      •  They are suggesting he cannot win in the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Granny Doc

        general election, that is why.

    •  God, me too granny (37+ / 0-)

      especially the fake Wright controversy.

      It's just appalling.

      "Hope" is the thing with feathers-that perches in the soul-and sings the tune without the words-and never stops-at all. Emily Dickinson

      by juslikagrzly on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:14:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bigots... (11+ / 0-)

        ...won't vote for Obama. Appalachia is full of proud, defiant bigots who will tell you the truth about themselves and their votes even if you don't ask them.

        It's time the press call them out for real and stop the bullshit.

        But bigots don't make up a moajority of the "swing vote" and anybody who suggests otherwise is doing exactly what Obama said they would do on March 18 in Philadelphia.

        •  I think all of America has it's fair share of (8+ / 0-)

          bigots, not just Appalachia.  We just don't want to admit our "isms".  

          "Hope" is the thing with feathers-that perches in the soul-and sings the tune without the words-and never stops-at all. Emily Dickinson

          by juslikagrzly on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:13:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I've been saying this all over (13+ / 0-)

          and get jumped on for being a "snob," but I agree that it's time to get on the voter for why they vote the way they do rather than focusing on the candidate and why they don't "appeal" to these bigoted, ignorant voters. It's a false argument. Why does no one ask whether or not the voters are racist?  Why are they handled with such kid gloves?  It drives me insane.  These people will NEVER vote for an AA, and will continue to vote against their own narrow self-interests.

          •  hear, hear (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wishingwell, Granny Doc, sea note

            or is it here, here.

            We just don't want to admit our racism, homophobia, biases, prejudices, and we sure as shit can't ask anyone else about theirs.

            And all races can be racist.  It is a strawman.  People are bigoted at various levels (and of course I include myself).  Some are just more willing to examine and reflect and change.

            "Hope" is the thing with feathers-that perches in the soul-and sings the tune without the words-and never stops-at all. Emily Dickinson

            by juslikagrzly on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:43:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I had a pretty lengthy (18+ / 0-)

            conversation with my cousin at Passover Seder about Obama. He's an attorney and a long-time Democrat, been involved in local politics and rapidly approaching 60 (egad I'm getting old!) .

            He said multiple times during the evening that there's something about Obama that he's just not comfortable with. I said, he's black. He said again he didn't know what it was, I said, he's black.

            Now no one in my family, who's still alive anyway, is in the least bit racist. That said, I'd guess that many of us are subject to the fear that Obama talked about in Philadelphia. There is an undercurrent of dis-ease. I very purposefully put a name on it for my cousin.

            I'm thinking pretty strongly that we need to put a name on it whenever it comes up and then ask immediately, what exactly are you afraid of?

            What do you fear might happen if a black man were President? What do you fear might happen if this son of a white woman were President?

            The fears are almost certainly irrational. If given a chance to express that fear and acknowledge its irrationality, I suspect that most of those who are not truly racist bigots will see it for what it is and be able to get past it without undue upset.

            For those who are racist bigots, well, they're unlikely to get past it in this life, so best to know that up front so we can spend as little time with them as possible.

            It's sort of like the sales training I did a while back - go for no; if you get the no you're going to get anyway, better to get it sooner than later. Don't waste time answering smokescreen objections; find out what the real issues and concerns are and address these. If you can't address them - like cause they're a racist bigot, then at least you know  that you have no chance to make the sale, time to move on.

            So, bottom line (sorry for rambling on) I basically agree with you, however, the press certainly isn't going to do it, so it'll be up to each one of us, with each one of our individual interactions with friends, family and strangers as we canvass and call voters across the country.

            Democracy is a contact sport...

            by jsmagid on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:52:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good point (4+ / 0-)

              Don't waste time precious time with the no's.  You are not going to get to a yes.  That is the fallacy, and I hope the Obama campaign recognizes it.

            •  what are you afraid of? (0+ / 0-)

              Have you considered the possibility that my support for Hillary has to do with her policy positions on health care, education,the economy,Iraq and not because of race. Yes,even Iraq. Yes ,I do know who voted for what and when---who wasn`t in the senate at the time votes were cast---who was in the senate that didn`t vote,etc. I want out of Iraq. Why will Barack not make a stand regarding the many private contracts put in place during Bush`s reign. Correct me if I`m wrong,but my understanding is that Barack would not challenge the contracts, which means we keep 130,000 civilians there for reconstruction (that`s a whole other topic)and necessarily,troops to protect them.Yes--he`ll get us out alright. The low information voters that supposedly rush to hillary are not stupid people. Maybe they don`t all understand  every aspect of foriegn policy or the tax code and economics,maybe they are one or two issue voters--but they are decent people who are patriotic and understand the needs of their families and communities.You have no right to imply they do not vote for Obama because of race.Just worry about your own vote Perhaps if you persist to know the voting motivation for Hillary voters you may want to ask each Obama supporter why they will not vote for a woman.Would you not be offended if I would suggest to others that your vote is really a protest vote against women.I believe you have your own thoughtout reasons for supporting Barack that are not related to gender.I have my own reasons for supporting Hillary that have nothing to do with race.Peace.

              •  Chill out (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Granny Doc, NY Dem

                would you?

                Did I say ask this of every Clinton supporter?

                Did yo see me mention Hillary Clinton or anything at all that alluded to her in my comment?

                No? Oh, well, cause there wasn't anything in my comment that had anything whatsoever to do with Clinton. My comment deals directly with a single dynamic and is completely independent of HRC.

                I sure did talk to my cousin about why I decided to support Obama when my first choice, John Edwards, dropped out and I'd be happy to relay my reasons (and have posted such comments on at least a few occasions where relevant).

                It was after having done so, and he agreed that on the face of it he preferred Obama, but, but, but, he was uncomfortable that I challenged him to consider the source of his discomfort.

                I'm sorry you are all in a lather about the misogyny you believe we are peddling, but truth is, HRC being a woman has absolutely nothing to do with it.

                No one is running continuous loops of Hillary's female minister/"spiritual adviser" (if she ever had one) railing against male dominated society/government and asking if she shares that hateful perspective on America.
                 
                Are there people who won't vote for a woman? Yup. Has the Obama campaign made common cause with the GOP to stoke that dynamic? Don't think so.

                Democracy is a contact sport...

                by jsmagid on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:09:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  jsmagid (0+ / 0-)

                  Thank you for the correction--you`re right,you didn`t specifically bring up Hillary`s name.I recognize my comment was less than precise.Let me rephrase my thought. Are you suggesting that I,along with many of the people that donot support Barack, are acting so because we are racist--That we`re afraid of a black president. You did use that kind of verbage in your post. The point I was trying to make was that there are reasons (whether you agree or not),that some people prefer Hillary because of policy issues totally unrelated to race. I brought up  gender to point out that, to assume someone does not vote for Barack because of racism is not any different than saying you`re not voting for Hillary because of a gender bias. I believe your voting for Barack because of policy issues,believeability,personality...not gender.I`m supporting Hillary for similar reasons and race is not one of them. Now I will get a glass of wine and chill out.

                  •  You read my post (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Granny Doc

                    completely out of context.

                    I was specifically responding to the parent comment which was specifically responding to the parent of that comment:

                    Appalachia is full of proud, defiant bigots who will tell you the truth about themselves and their votes even if you don't ask them.

                    It's time the press call them out for real and stop the bullshit.

                    That is the ONLY proper context for my comment.

                    It has nothing to do with people who affirmatively support HRC.

                    As for why I think Clinton is not the better candidate, let me count the ways:

                    1. Narrowing the field of play to designated "swing states" in November is the same strategy that lost in '00 and '04. Spreading the field of play is a winning strategy. Obama has picked up Gov. Dean's 50 state strategy and run with it - and as far as I can tell scored repeatedly.
                    2. Bankruptcy bill HRC voted for was/is a travesty and seriously undercuts claim to being for the middle class.
                    3. Refusal to admit that voting for the war was a huge mistake. If nothing else, admit that the mistake was taking GWB at his word. Obama stated clearly that the war was both wrong and a bad idea. He was quite right - and I agreed with him at the time.
                    4. I can't swear about Clinton, but I know that Obama has said nothing about keeping troops in theater in Iraq to protect contractors. He has enunciated a schedule for complete withdrawal of combat troops. Clinton has stated she will not set an end date for complete withdrawal, only a definitive date to start withdrawal.
                    5. IMO, health care proposals that mandate buying private for profit insurance is more likely to increase insurance company profits as it is to result in universal access to healthcare.
                    6. Corporate lobbyists, contrary to Clinton's claim at Yearly Kos, do not represent "real" people, they represent corporate interests. Taking contributions bundled by corporate lobbyists is anti-populist.
                    7. I cannot abide by a campaign that praises a Republican at the expense of a fellow Democrat.

                    Democracy is a contact sport...

                    by jsmagid on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:24:41 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  jsmagid (0+ / 0-)

                      I respect your views and appreciate the time and thought you put into your reply to me. I,however,disagree with you--point for point. Perhaps we could meet in Austin and discuss this over a beer at some bowling lane. I`m hopeing Granny Doc would join us. She says she caries a 260 average.l.o.l.

                      •  You can disagree if you like (0+ / 0-)

                        but #1 is an indisputable fact, so not much to discuss on that.

                        Similarly, HRC voted for the bankruptcy bill. Hard to dispute that the bill is hugely bad for the middle class, so not much to discuss here either.

                        Then there is #3 - HRC voted for the war, another fact, and has steadfastly refused to admit it was a mistake, not just any old mistake mind you, but a really big, really ugly, really horrible mistake. There is also the indisputable fact that I knew, well beyond a reasonable doubt (backed up by conversation with member of National Defense University War Gaming group in early March of '03 - long story) the invasion would be a disaster, leaving me rather unforgiving of Congresscritters unable to walk against the political wind to do what was right. I guess we could talk about it if you like, but wiggle room here seems to be at a premium.

                        On 4, definite deadline to get out vs. definite no-deadline to get out is what they've said, so I guess we can talk about exactly how many troops it'll take to do whatever it is each of them has said they'll need some residual force to do - from what I know so far, Clinton's force in situ, Obama's over the horizon someplace.

                        5 - Ok there's some wiggle room on that one.

                        6 - Not much to argue that Obama's very soon to be 1.5MM contributors - no registered lobbyists or corporate PACS allowed thank you - with more than twice the number of small donor (less than $200) contributors makes Obama both less beholden to corporate interests and a sure bet to be able to fund the widest possible playing field for both his race and down-ballot races.

                        That leaves us with 7, and I'm pretty sure there's not much to talk about on this one, so while I enjoyed my 2 visits to Austin over the years, I'm afraid I don't see much chance that you'll entice me to head on down anytime soon; and even if you did, it'd have to be a blues club and an O'Douls.

                        Democracy is a contact sport...

                        by jsmagid on Mon May 05, 2008 at 06:29:18 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  **Are you a defense contractor? (0+ / 0-)

                Because your candidate seems quite willing to keep wars going on forever.  Do you think it's a good idea to fashion a security umbrella over the Middle East?  Do you think it's a good idea to continue the "With us or Against us" attitude of the current administration?  Do you think this sort of attitude bodes well for putting in place a good health plan for all Åmericans?  Do you think she's capable of getting our economy on the right track when she's managed to run her campagin into bankruptcy?  

                **Yeah, I'm mad! I've been paying attention.

                by greylox on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:15:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  greylox (0+ / 0-)

                  Some say it worked during the cold war with Russia.I personally would not use that argument. Please take the time to watch her on THIS WEEK on ABC. I think she addresses the"security umbrella" in a clear,concise,and rational manner. I don`t know how to do links but I1m sure it will be on youtube.

        •  Bigots (8+ / 0-)

          are the voters they are talking about.  Look at Hillary Clinton's behavior in the last month appealing to their baser instincts.  Standing on the back of pick up trucks, talking about duck hunting, taking shots and drinking bear, giving them an 18 cents a day rebate on gas.  None of these actions seem presidential in the least and they make her look like a phoney but yet she is realing them in like a duck through a scope.

          •  Well, my FIL fits that category (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Granny Doc

            very nicely and he's the least bigoted person I know precisely because he recognizes his biases (grew up in a small south Texas town) and is willing to question and reflect.  He was a game warden and was around pick-up trucks (still drives one), toted guns (still has them) and is a yellow-dog dem and Obama supporter.  

            I agree that "appealing to their baser instincts" is at the heart of many a politicians rhetoric and it works to some extent.

            And to change that rhetoric is what Obama is trying to do.  What we should be trying to do.

            The comment upthread about getting the "no" answer quicker and then moving on has some appeal, but by not engaging the nay-sayers and "bigots" we are bigoted against bigots.  I used to say that I am intolerant of intolerance--isn't that a paradox.  

            This is a complex issue and not easily painted with a broad brush.  

            "Hope" is the thing with feathers-that perches in the soul-and sings the tune without the words-and never stops-at all. Emily Dickinson

            by juslikagrzly on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:00:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Good point, but (0+ / 0-)

            it's hard for me to identify with someone who likes the taste of bear....   :)

    •  Granny, (11+ / 0-)

      Not all white working class voters are Republicans, Reagan Democrats or a herd of low-information voters.  You are painting with a very broad brush today. 80% of the US is made up of white folks, most of which work for a living.  

      Republicans still don't have 60 votes, and it doesn't seem to bother them one bit.

      by dkmich on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:20:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Working class or Middle class (36+ / 0-)

      interesting how the term gets tossed around depending on how they want to tilt the bias towards Hillary.

      Thanks Granny Doc - I love your diaries.

      Somehow white voters for Obama are now either middle class (upper) or "elites".

      Working class - a term that used to apply to unions or a marxist analysis is now solely focused on industrial workers for Hillary.

      Did a search of coverage of Teamsters for Obama - and there was very little coverage.  

      All of those white college students at state schools and community colleges - who vote for Obama, many of whom have jobs don't count either.

      Nor do all of the white farm belt folks in caucus states - have no clue now what class they fall into :)

      Of course no one mentions that most African-Americans and Latinos who voted for Obama are working class.  Just as "women" for Hillary means "white" women for Hillary, which ignores all of the women who have voted for Obama - no matter the color.    

      Anthropologists for human diversity; opposing McCain perversity

      by Denise Oliver Velez on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:30:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i love your analysis on these BS demographics... (11+ / 0-)

        i'm so sick of hearing about these so-called groups.  "but you forgot the CATHOLICS!"

        62169 - which apparently means A LOT.

        by jj24 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:43:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I would recommend this comment 10 times (6+ / 0-)

        if I could. When the pundits try to discuss Class, they do so in a way that divorces everyone but white males from it. When they discuss Race or Gender, they do it in ways that paper over class distinctions.

        I was a Republican until they lost their minds, The word 'conservative' means 'discriminatory,' ... It's a form of political discrimination. --- Charles Barkley

        by Kimball Cross on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:47:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Americans are uncomfortable discussing class (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Granny Doc, Matt Z

          I think.  Each semester - I get a new crop of young students (at a state college) and ask them to write down what class they are, and their parents and grandparents.  Everyone of them writes "middle class".

          Some say upper middle, middle middle, lower middle, or just middle.  We obviously have no students from the ruling class at our school, but they are clueless about class - not one has ever used the word working class; they don't understand social status either.

          These are predominantly "white" kids - most are first generation or perhaps second - going to college. We are directly across the river from Vassar - a different school for the children of a different class. Not picking on Vassar - they have a great program - but the demographics of their student body are quite different from ours.

          I have to start from scratch - and slowly get them to understand class, power elites, labor history, migration, and then work my way up to intersections of "race", class, and gender.    I spend 4 solid weeks on the social constructions of all of these categories and attempt to show them how they apply to their lives.

          What amazes me is that none of them have ever had these discussions in High School.  But then the "myth of the fuzzy middle" is what sustains a populace who votes elites into office to shaft them - time and time again.

          Sigh.  

          Anthropologists for human diversity; opposing McCain perversity

          by Denise Oliver Velez on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:52:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  What a horrendous (4+ / 0-)

      elitist, dangerous diary.

      People who historically can't identify their own interest?  People who vote on the basis of beer, and bowling?

      Ah, yes, those stupid working class people, not knowing what's good for themselves. Well, why don't you enlighten them, Granny.

      This diary is now part of a ignominious trend, with Bowers whining that's he's tired of chasing Reagan Dems and Axelrod saying, well Dems don't win these voters anyway.

      I love this, supposed supporters of a 50-state strategy writing off an entire, important group of voters.

      Please don't blame Obama's failure to win white voter class voters on the voters themselves.

      Obama would hate this diary.

      White working class voters were the core of the Democratic party when it was a majority party.

      •  Lulz... (10+ / 0-)

        Please don't blame Obama's failure to win white voter class voters on the voters themselves.

        He's got no trouble winning them. There are a dozen or more states he's won with <10% black populations. What Obama has a problem winning, and will always have a problem winning, are white voters who refuse to vote for non-white presidents. Not much to do about those folks.</p>

        cold war clinton make iran go boom!

        by haruki on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:55:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  people are stupid if they vote for bowling and (12+ / 0-)

        flag pin politics.  If they have been voting for the same thing since the 60's and they are are worse off, I would say they are stupid, no matter who they are, where they work or what the color of their skin is.

        Do you think George Stephanopoulos loves America as much as you?

        by MadAsHellMaddie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:09:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe they're voting the economy. (0+ / 0-)

          But you couldn't accept that, because you're committed to the notion that everyone that disagrees with you is crazy.

          "[G]lobalization is...increasing the efficiency of resource allocation through stronger capital markets" - Barack Obama

          by burrow owl on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:11:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Stupid White Voters (0+ / 0-)

          That's who should be thrown under the bus. Obama doesn't need them and there's no reason to think they can be persuaded in any case.

          Forget stupid white voters! They can't even be trusted vote in their own best interests, how can we ever expect them to vote in our best interests?

          •  stupid white voters - we need 'em (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Granny Doc

            Obama does need these voters, since without them he would lose in a 50 state landslide of epic proportions.  It's silly for the TeeVee "analysts" to conclude that since the ignoramus demographic prefers HRC to Obama, that they must prefer McCain to Obama.  But then, these media analysts are part of that very demographic, so maybe they know best.

            "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

            by Subterranean on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:30:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  At the risk of sounding (0+ / 0-)

          If they have been voting for the same thing since the 60's and they are are worse off, I would say they are stupid, no matter who they are, where they work or what the color of their skin is.

          elitist, there are a lot of intellectually lazy voters in America who vote on the basis of stupid superficial issues that have nothing to do with their own self interest.

      •  Wrong, totally wrong. (0+ / 0-)

        Obama's coalition is, and should be:

        African Americans
        Voters under 30
        Affluent white liberals

        This is how we win in November. No one else matters. Why waste resources trying to pursue them? Lower class whites are obviously (ref: PA) too uneducated and xenophobic to understand Obama.

        •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Galadriel

          Reasonable people always try to get blood out of a stone, thinking there is some way--some way to reach people like this.  Well, guess what?  There isn't.  The coaltion mentioned above just has to come out and outnumber this demographic, because they will not change their minds.  They are incapable of it.  

        •  RAINBOW COALITION expand that! n/t (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Granny Doc, Galadriel
        •  troll? (4+ / 0-)

          I've read through this and some of your other comments, and I'm convinced that you must be an anti-Obama troll.

          What you say in this comment and others like it is so stupid, ridiculous and obnoxious that it really must be intended to make Obama supporters look vulgar and ignorant.

          Or, more simply, you yourself are vulgar and obnoxious.  Either way, this diary and your commentary are destructive and do harm to Obama and the Democratic Party.  Shame.

          •  hardly anti-Obama (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Galadriel

            But this is the screed you Clintonites and Repugs rely on.  Turn the mirror around, baby!

          •  All who disagree are not trolls (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Granny Doc, XerTeacher

            I'm saying that Obama needs to solidify his coalition and cut his losses where extra attention is unproductive. For that I'm called a troll and worse names? No wonder there are so few AAs like myself who post here, this is what we get from people like you.

            Would you call me vulgar and ignorant if I said the McCain campaign should forget African Americans, college students and affluent white urban liberals to focus on rural and suburban whites and older voters?

            Because I think it would be stupid for McCain to court the AA vote. He will not get it, or the votes of other groups that form Obama's coalition, no matter what.

            But what do I know? I'm just a stupid obnoxious black chick who isn't good enough to hang out with my "betters" like you on DailyKos.

            •  true (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bandersnatch

              all who disagree are not trolls.

              and the proposition "Obama needs to solidify his coaltion and cut his losses where extra attention is unproductive" is something much less controversial than your other comments.  So, that's really not all that you're saying.  What are you really saying?

              Comments such as

              forget [white working class people]

              forget stupid white voters!

              lower class whites are obviously...uneducated and xenophobic

              [working class whites don't] matter

              Stupid White Voters...should be thrown under the bus

              Those are your comments.  How would you describe them if you substitute "black" in for "white"?

              Ignorant? Vulgar?

              Probably racist, too.

        •  wow (0+ / 0-)

          I guess that pretty much sums me up.
          -lower class, white, absolutely not affluent
          -too uneducated
          and if I don't 'understand' Obama, then I'm xenophobic.
          wow.

          "Junkies find veins in their toes when the ones in their arms and legs collapse." - Al Gore

          by parryander on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:03:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  but what about (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Brooke In Seattle, Granny Doc

          Those of us are not affluent but college educated or folks like my husband without a college education but still an avid Obama supporter?
          Not every liberal is college educated and not every college educated person is affluent.

          Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

          by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:38:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  then you are educated and enlightened (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wishingwell

            educated doesn't mean a college education--it means being open to new ideas and learning what you need to in order to make a rational choice--things that are anathema to the types who don't go beyond skin color. Thomaswilliam can flail all he wants--but there it is.

      •  I didn't read this diary that way at all (19+ / 0-)

        I read it understanding that she is asking

        1-Who are these people that are lumped into "white working class"
        2-After trying to figure out who they are, she realized the group is a media frame lumping together all sorts of different people.
        3-The media then claims these "white working class" voters should be democrats, when for the last 30 years, they've been defined (by the media) as Reagan democrats, and voting republican.
        3-She is frustrated with the corp media, who after creating their own vague "white working class" sub group, then pounds on the question "why can't obama win them"

        I think your outrage might me misplaced.

        No more internal power struggle...Soon we'll find out who is the real revolutionary, cause I dont want my people to be contrary. -Bob Marley

        by TexH on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:32:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Obama would like this diary I think. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        revgerry, Granny Doc

        He would get a wide range of opinions about race from our discussions.  We are from everywhere with varied backgrounds and perspectives.

        The 50-state strategy is brilliant, every state counts, and every person has a voice.  

        Obama is not failing, he is succeeding rather nicely.  Four or so years ago, in 2004 the good Dr. Dean started a 50-state grass roots program.  Planted the seeds that have sprouted everywhere today.  See I think Obama has the nomination.  It is done.

        We have returned from the ashes.

        by Morgana on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:38:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  perhaps (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cali Scribe, Granny Doc, NeeshRN, Zorge

        the low information voters are called Diebold.  Why wouldn't I be surprised that the media is actually trying to make people believe lots of people support more of the same that we've had over the past 8 years and the status quo so that when Diebold throws the election results, the results are 'less' surprising and people "shouldn't" be pissed off?

        Orwell meet George the 43rd

        by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:40:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Glad to know that I am not alone (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      soros, Granny Doc, brushysage

      in being at my wit's end on how to deal with the msm BS.  

      ;) Happy Sunday!

      If we want peace, why do we give weapons and call it "aid"?

      by gdwtch52 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:57:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Join the club (3+ / 0-)

      Many of us are hanging onto sanity by the skin of our teeth !

      Let's get some Democracy for America

      by murphy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:09:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Something we forget (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cali Scribe, wishingwell, Granny Doc

      Most people aren't political junkies like those of us who hang around here.

      This past week I've spoken with two exceptionally bright men, democrats, who were both unaware of the whole Michigan/Florida lie Hillary is telling.  If these bright people didn't know about this, what about everybody else?  I think that's why Hillary supporters are still hanging on, they just aren't paying attention carefully.

      We were on vacation this week and only had access to CNN.  I'd turn it on once or twice a day and without fail it was about Rev. Wright. MIndblowing, that such a non-event would make the "news" and Hillary's lies about Michigan/Florida, 'obliterating Iran' - etc never mentioned.  Also never mentioned is McCain's crazy bigoted pastor.

    •  Tips for U of M Inst. of Soc. Research (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theran, Granny Doc

      Spent some time in the building looking at poll results back in the day.

      "A vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote to continue this process, and a vote to continue this process is a vote that assists John McCain." - Joe Andrew

      by Inland on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:29:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Who Are These "White, working-class, voters"? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      parryander

      To an extent, this is who they are:

      Among white Democrats

      24% prefer McCain over Obama

      13% pick McCain over Clinton

      Among Democratic men

      27% pick McCain over Obama

      18% choose McCain over Clinton

      http://www.rasmussenreports.com/...

      BTW, I can't see how the attitude reflected in comments like these:

      "People who historically can't identify their own interest?  People who vote on the basis of beer, and bowling?"

      is helpful, and it seems to me the type of thing that Obama got skewered over, but what do I know.

    •  move over, granny. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      and let me sit with you. Remember, the madness of crowds is a hell of a lot more fun.

      To fully understand Christianity's duplicity, first recognize that the Vatican's St. Peter's Square is actually an oval.

      by agnostic on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:11:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Freak Not Out. All will be well. Venceremos! n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      Venceremos! (We shall overcome!)

      by Redfire on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:24:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Let's go out of our way (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wildtrack, New Deal democrat

      to alienate the very people our candidate will need to get elected in November.  We'll use every smear and insult in the book to do it.  Then we'll blame them when he loses.

      If you want to point out "Reagan Democrats", why not start with Markos and Ariana?  These people wasted no time going after the Clintons during the 1990s, and continue it today.  News for you--poor and working class people of every age and ethnic group saw their lives improve while during that time.  Markos and Huffington opposed them every step of the way.  Your insults and criticism are misplaced.

      And once again, you make the Rec List.  Given the mindset here, it is well deserved.

      Congratulations on another piece of fine writing, and even better politics.

    •  David Broder in WaPo column Sunday (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Granny Doc, miss SPED

      was quote Clinton campaign source that supers were "shifting their conversations about the rush of young voters to a focus on older voters and Catholics in PA and OH, states vital to Democratic chances of making an electoral majority." The implication is that this bloc will sway supers to anoint Clinton as the nominee.

      Broder does go onto to say picking Clinton over Obama will create a "wound" in the party that would only partially be healed by an Obama gracious exit.

      What Broder et.al. refuse to acknowledge (unlike Granny Doc) is that these voters most likely aren't going to vote for any Democrat in November.

      The wave of young voters now affiliating themselves with the Democratic party has sound demographic support. Please check out The Incredible Shrinking Republican Base at Larry Sabato's Center for Politics.

      •  oh thank you orangedem (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishingwell, Granny Doc

        I read Brodie's piece and nearly threw up.

        Count me in as one of those who would not vote for HRC if SDs manufacture a coup d'etat.

        SDs picking Clinton over Obama because he should wait his turn would be the last nail in the coffin of the Democratic Party for me.

    •  Absolutely beautiful (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Granny Doc

      Every time I see "white, working-class voter" in one of the media I cringe. You've perfectly articulated why. Excellent.

      "Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

      by arainsb123 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:04:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly Granny Doc (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      You hit the nail on the head.

      I have been wondering the same thing myself and often. I know a few " Reagan Democrats" but interestingly, most of them changed their voter registration to Republican sometime in the  90s. Or if they have not changed their voter affiliation, they have consistently voted for the Republican nominee for President since Reagan.

      Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

      by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:10:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Al Giordano agrees with you (0+ / 0-)

      And has the data to back you both up:

      http://ruralvotes.com/...

    •  What do you mean? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      if I have any hope of surviving through November.  This is making me CRAZY!!

      I don't understand "tips".  I need to go to the Kos dictionary.

      Excellent post.  Deserving of rec.

      From my own "poll" of family members, etc, in red regions of blue states, I think that word-of-mouth is the more prevalent disseminator of information among slack-jawed troglodytes.  If one person watches a soundbyte or gets an email or even reads a newspaper, he/she repeats it such that no one ever knows the source again.  It becomes, "Obama will raise taxes" or "Hillary will reduce the price of gas" and the truth will never cross their path again.

      Why do you necessarily have to be wrong just because a few million people think you are? ~ Frank Zappa

      by alliedoc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:49:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  GREAT diary, again, G-Doc! Thanks for thinking, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      and then writing, unlike the "journalists" and pundits who say such dumb stuff repeatedly that they end up believing it.

      Thank God the Democrats won control of the Senate... otherwise, think of how different everything would be. -G.Greenwald

      by Gorette on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:23:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm white, and I've had to work all my life... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fumie, Granny Doc, NY Dem

      ...and I've maxed out for Obama in primary sseason!

    •  Thank you for this diary (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      and for pointing out the media's agenda. I've suspected this instinctively but you nailed it with facts and data.  

  •  White working class voters (52+ / 0-)

    seems to be a euphemism for rust belt / Appalachian poor whites who would be reluctant to vote for a black guy no matter what.

    White working class voters in IA, WI, VA, and OR (by polls) don't seem to have any problem with Obama.

    I think it all goes back to the David Sirota "race chasm" argument that states with very few blacks in it don't have a problem with voting for a black guy because they aren't dealing with racial politics on a regular basis (i.e. blaming blacks for problems in their states)

  •  Then why are they voting in (D) primaries? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, Hedwig, dolphin777, bakenjuddy

    If they were Reagan (D)s, wouldn't they have likely switched registration by now?  

    "[G]lobalization is...increasing the efficiency of resource allocation through stronger capital markets" - Barack Obama

    by burrow owl on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:12:44 AM PDT

  •  yes, these are the people who watch FOX. (6+ / 0-)
    •  I'd like to see a pollster bold enough to ask: (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Granny Doc, leema, bakenjuddy

      "Are you a Fox News watcher?"

      Aloha   ..  ..  ..

    •  Speaking of Fox. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc, brushysage, Livvy5

      Howard Dean was allowed to shed some light with Chris Wallace this morning. As I channel surfed it seemed to be the most honest, interesting and informed segment going on at the time. CG Jung uses the term enantiodromia to signify the phenomenon, like a cresting wave or a solstice, where something peaks and then begins turning into its opposite. Could it happen that while we continue to lambast and demonize Fox (without ever having the stomach to watch it) it turns around and begins producing a sober semblance of news while Tweety and his court warble on endlessly about Jeremiah Wright? Could it be that Fox, whatever it's bias and agenda, nevertheless feels it has something to prove, and like Avis decides it has to try a little harder to deliver on its promise of "fair and balanced?" I know the knee-jerk response to this question will be a dismissive "No." People are even more defensive of their demons than they are of their sacred cows.

      "Your point. Their village." --Zhivago to Strelnikov

      by ailanthus on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:27:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Media will always sing a siren call to viewers; (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Granny Doc

        they need us.  But as long as they are part of the corporate monopoly their loyalty is for profit first, last and always.   And profit at any cost is by nature incongruous with and opposed to, democracy.

        We need to demonopolize and reregulate and bring back the Fairness Doctrine to eliminate the wanton propaganda that is currently out there.  

        If you think real news, all the news, fact based news as opposed to pap & propaganda,  can happen without gov. intervention, then I have another bridge or two to sell.

        •  You are right, of course. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Granny Doc

          But even fake corporate "news" can't pave over everything. Stuff percolates in the world, and stuff filters up through the cracks. My only point is that it's so easy to have a set opinion about something that in effect blocks any actual perception of the thing one has an opionion about. It's as true of Fox News' critics as it is of Fox News itself.

          "Your point. Their village." --Zhivago to Strelnikov

          by ailanthus on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:09:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  If Fox is making a turnaround, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishingwell, Granny Doc

        I suspect it is not primarily because they desire to produce more balanced programing, but rather because they want to survive.  The animosity they have created threatens to come back and haunt them in a Democratic administration.

  •  White working class voter here! (27+ / 0-)

    Female, 45, no health care, divorced from cheating ex.

    3 guesses who I support. :-)

  •  "White working class voter" (35+ / 0-)

    Makes so little sense to me. I'm sick of hearing that phrase as if there's a small group of white working class voters that are all a bunch of rednecks, when that describes the majority of America.

    You wanna see a bunch of white working class voters? Come to Idaho.

    Who won the Idaho primary again?...

  •  your remarks are elitist..... (7+ / 0-)

    and out of touch!  McCain will definitely get a majority of this demographic. Regardless if Hillary or Barack were the nominee.  But I think the democrat will still do well enough to win the presidency. (assuming the dems stop bickering amongst themselves)

    •  Exactly. Forget them. (0+ / 0-)

      The white working class is a lost cause for Obama and there's nothing wrong with that.

      Think about it, this demographic brings nothing progressive to the Democratic Party. Affluent whites bring us the money. Lower class whites can't even do that and they're stuck clinging to their guns and religion and xenophobia, just like Obama said.

      We have to stop pandering to them now.

      •  The problem is (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Granny Doc, davewill

        that we're going to need those folks to help bring this country back to sanity -- they're just as much Americans as we are, and it's going to take all of us working together.

        We don't have to pander to them -- but we do have to assure them that they do have a place at the table. To brush them off as unimportant and insignificant is exactly what the Republicans have done to us this century -- and I don't know about you, but when I feel that way, it sucks.

        At the very least I want them to be able to say, as John Wayne said of JFK in 1960, "I didn't vote for him, but he's my President and I hope he does a good job." That's the only way we're going to get beyond this "if you're not with us you're with the enemy" mentality that we've been subjected to since 2001.

        "Old soldiers never die -- they get young soldiers killed." -- Bill Maher

        by Cali Scribe on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:00:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wow you just excluded Me ! I am liberal, college (0+ / 0-)

        educated but not rich, not even close. I am more lower middle class. And my husband is very progressive but he lacks a college education.  But we are the most liberal people in our neighborhood.

        We are solid, unwavering Obama supporters.

        Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

        by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:57:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Love how intelligent people are branded elitist (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      and isn't supposed to be a perjorative term.  It's only the "white working class" who turn it into a negative.  Envy and resentment, pure and simple.

  •  They media also pushed the (7+ / 0-)

    Latino voters will not vote for Obama.  He has always had a good share of the Latino vote but the media stay on this topic.  They also state that Catholics will not vote for him and he has won the majority of Catholics in some states.

    Kill your TV, especially the FOX, ABC and CNN channels.

    by ajleiker on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:19:55 AM PDT

  •  beware of simplification (10+ / 0-)

    That is what pollsters do, that is what brain dead talking heads do.

    We need to fight back and challenge their stupidity and laziness.

    I can take data and cut it many ways.  How I choose to cut the data can lead me to many different "conclusions".  

    Beware of simplification.

  •  These are people of the land. (4+ / 0-)

    The common clay of the new West.

    There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your week. By the way, is there anyone here who knows how to run a government?

    by iconoclastic cat on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:22:56 AM PDT

  •  The funny thing is... (8+ / 0-)

       Ever four years, these "white working-class voters" are revered as the true salt-of-the-earth heartland embodiments of everything that is America.

       And once the elections are over, Republicans and DLC Democrats show their deep respect for them by proceeding to screw them over every which way possible.

       At which point the white working-class voters happily once again give them their vote. Wash, rinse, repeat.

       Maybe the right-wingers have a point. Maybe some people really are happy in their poverty, and we shouldn't worry too much about alleviating it.

    "Le ciel est bleu, l'enfer est rouge."

    by Buzzer on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:23:45 AM PDT

  •  These are an important group of voters (15+ / 0-)

    And it's not like they're all voting for Clinton, so as an Obama voter I won't malign them all. They definitely trend that way though, and I think they do so in descending order of importance because:

    1. They are low-information, so Clinton's name recognition helps her with them more than any 'issues.'
    1. People living on the margins are probably less enthusiastic of change, than others.

      Ho Chi Min (sp?) once said (something to the effect of) his peasant rebellion "The peasants is essentially passive. If he grows ten bags of rice, and needs but two for himself to live, he will not raise up a hand against his masters. It's not until the master takes that 9th bag of rice from him that he'll be willing to fight."
      So, while the better off might be willing to fight for their principals, the less well off sometimes have to be pushed into it. (After all, look at the American Revolution. It was a very top-down Revolution, when you consider the educational and economic backgrounds of the 'founders' and its most ardent supporters.)

    1. Race. While most people don't want to be racists, including working-class-whites, it's true for a sizable minority the race issue comes into play. It's not dominate, but pretending like it's there is just the ostritch response Americans have become famous for of late.
    •  I concur with your analysis. (9+ / 0-)

      I am not questioning the voters, here.  I am questioning the media's representation of them has critical in the Primary selection process.  I'm not at all sure they are either Democrats, or will vote for a Democrat in November.  Why they are they being used as a media tool to effect the Primary outcome?

      No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

      by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:27:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  True (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Granny Doc

        I think there are some among this demographic who simply want a 'voice' in the democratic primary, and fully plan to defect to McCain in the Fall. Probably the number among this group who are doing this are higher than among any other group. After that, you have some who would vote for a person of the same race but wouldn't vote for a person of another race.

        I'd estimate these two groups together constitute about 15% of the whites who've voted for her. (Don't know what that translates into all whites who've voted for Dems in the primary.)

    •  I would add (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ameranth, Philoguy, Granny Doc, Zebras

      that they think that electing Hillary will magically restore the economic boom that Bill lucked into.

      I still believe that the only thing Bill did right about the economny was that he stayed out of the way.  Obviously, decisions he made are impacting us now, but I really don't give him any credit for the dot.com boom - but uninformed voters do.

      --Independent Impressed by Obama!

      by SnowItch on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:57:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They still like Bill, Hillary means Bill will (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      return in some form.

      People living on the margins are probably less enthusiastic of change, than others.

      This holds true of the electorate in general in turbulent times. Hard times doesn't mean people are looking for "change". They're looking for what they had when times were good.

      What does it mean that the cross over voting between Obama and Clinton supporters is as low as it is?
      Or that many Hillary voters say they will vote McCain if Obama is nominated?

      You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates the same people you do.-A Lamott

      by the fan man on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:38:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  4. Aesthetics. (0+ / 0-)

      With Reagan, people didn't so much want a president as to have someone play president with panache. Under Bush in his popular days as Fearless Leader the president morphed into a kind of Pope. We really need two leaders - one ceremonial to speak to deep psychological needs, and one practical who simply goes about his business in a competent and effective way. Kind of like a King and a Prime Minister in constitutional monarchies. Oh well. Maybe we could have our ceremonial leader picked on American Idol and our practical leader selected by those with...uh... the necessary discernment, which would be... uh... everyone's grandmother? I personally would be ok with only grandmothers getting to decide. (Full disclosure: I am not even a woman, let alone a grandmother.)

      "Your point. Their village." --Zhivago to Strelnikov

      by ailanthus on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:47:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm white, female, working class, educated, (15+ / 0-)

    married, with kids, middle-aged, a democrat, southern, short, left-handed, and I support.....

    OBAMA!  Where am I in that demographic?

    Barack Obama Can...John McCain't...Forget about Hillary.

    by Kyman on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:24:40 AM PDT

  •  Myopic (3+ / 0-)

    Just like Obama. I now understand why Reagan Democrats are suspicious of the left. I've been working class my whole life. I am 37 years old and college educated and still working class. Like a lot of working class folks, I aspire to the middle class, and I like a lot of working class folks, I have been a lifelong, loyal Democrat. I have made it my business to follow politics, and am well aware of what is going on in national, state, and local politics at any given time. After this election, I am no longer a loyal Democrat. I will never vote Republican, as that party is corrupt and pathological, but I understand the power and use of abstention now, of being present. And posts like this one are part of the reason why I make this political evolution to true independent. Half of this party has no use for me, even as I've fought side by side with them for years. I never thought they would turn on me, because I would never have turned on them, but they did.

    •  How has the party turned on you? (6+ / 0-)

      Just because Hillary is losing the nomination contest?

    •  I don't think that you're part of the demographic (7+ / 0-)

      in question as the "working class" demographic is usually also defined as uneducated (e.g., white, making $50K or less, and no college). In other words, the media treats educated and working class as mutually exclusive .  .

    •  ironic (0+ / 0-)

      to take the view that one candidate and one ridiculous anonymous blogger represent the entire Democratic political party is short-sighted, has an unreasonably narrow focus, and demonstrates an inability to find common ground and work towards common goals, or, in a word, it is myopic

      •  I was right there with you (3+ / 0-)

        until you called me "one ridiculous anonymous blogger".  Now?  Not so much.

        No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

        by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:46:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  this diary is not good (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          belly

          it's elitist, condescending, and flat-out wrong.  pretty much ridiculous, really.  the sentiment of the diary is just plain harmful to Democratic Party.

          you have a few good diaries, but many of them are equally ridiculous as this one.

          so, i guess it should have been "one oftentimes ridiculous anonymous blogger"

          •  Thank you for (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Allogenes, CalexanderJ

            the clarification.

            Properly chastised I shall retreat from all public postings.  Until tomorrow.  At least.

            No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

            by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:04:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  you're welcome (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Reframing the Debate

              to post all you want, obviously, wherever you can.  and you're right in much of your criticism of the media's base tactics.

              but expressing the feelings that "working class voters are not going to vote for the democrat," and effectively, "why shoud we care about their votes?" is in my opinion historically factually wrong in the first place and second, as a matter of policy or strategy, not well-thought-out.

              white working class voters have been, and should be, votes for the democrat.  this election especially.  and they need to be told that.

              because the media is using polling data in a not-entirely-honest manner that in effect not-so-fairly casts Obama in a bad light, does not, in my opinion, make it necessary or proper for you to off-handedly denigrate and write-off a large voting bloc that should be voting democratic.

    •  What we actually need (5+ / 0-)

      is a socialist movement, that builds unions and other working class institutions, that grow in power and reach until we reach a critical mass that allows forming our own political party.  every genuinely democratic nation outside the US has such a movement and party, in fact the lack of such a party makes me skeptical about how genuinely democratic the US is.

      Oh, I know "socialism" is a "bad bad" word in America, but maybe, just maybe, that's because the US has been the bastion of the corporate power that tries to hold down working people everywhere in the world.  Maybe as the bad old days of the Soviet Union and the Cold War fade into the mists of history, maybe it will be harder to scare Americans away from a movement that allows those of us in the lower half economically to actually fight for our own interests rather than being told to shut up and put our noses to the grindstone giving ever more wealth and political power to those riding on our backs.

      •  My thoughts for many years (0+ / 0-)

        Activistguy.  But we have to find a way to frame it that keeps the power brokers from destroying the movement before it gets off the ground.

        No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

        by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:59:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I take offense at your tone (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cotterperson, dmh44, Zorge, SnowItch

    I am what you might call a "white working class voter". I am a progressive liberal voter and unless your education level is PhD it is no higher then mine and I too worked as a psychologist. Let me point out a few flaws.

    a) I am now a Registered Nurse Clinician, I am not a manager, not in an upper income bracket. I live in what many would call a working class neighborhood that is racially integrated....oh and I support Obama too.

    b) I have posted previously and will repeat here..."Reagan Democrat"? There is no such thing. Being an Independent or middle of the road to far right Rethug is in no way being a Democrat. This is one of those wonderful sounding terms originally pet out by folks at Faux News to bolster a claim that many Dems are truly Repugs and try to distort a new popular myth, that Reagan is the second coming of Linclon....he's spinning in his grave at this.

    c)If as you say you are a "cognative psychologist" you should be throughly familar with the term "cognative dissonance" which is often used to split people who may have a few disagreements but overall share the same objective. That is what this term does.

    d)It is finally the term that a doomed candidate uses to try to legitimatize her candidacy though it only serves to weaken the party as a whole. That the media and HRC should use these tactics to hurt the Democratic Party goes only to demonstrate the real Republican Bush rip-off that she is.

    Words escape me, but deeds are always noticed

    by utopia on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:29:35 AM PDT

    •  Well said, utopia. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      utopia

      These elitist ideas do not appeal to me either. They do not make a good democracy, nor do they help us stand together against the war-monging, international capitalists who seek to divide us.

      "This chamber reeks of blood." -- Sen George McGovern, 1970

      by cotterperson on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:46:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Elitist? You all have left me in (5+ / 0-)

        your dust here.  I find that Granny (another granny!) is looking at how verbiage is being used in the media and how people respond to certain themes.  She is also looking at a particular section of the voter spectrum as being a specific target for that verbiage.  Now I have noticed several things about the Bush campaigns myself.  

        1. He used "code words" to ingratiate himself within the "Christian Right"  voter spectrum.  We all have familiarity with some terms emanating out of a Christian background, but he used words specifically to get a response from that specific group.
        1. He shed his "elitism".  Bear in mind he grew up in a privileged society (no matter that he can't really talk well - in fact this is a plus that he can't string coherent sentences together in an easy fashion!)  So he WAS ELITE (Cape Cod, Bostonians, wealth, - the whole works!)  So much so he could afford to fail at bidness over and over and over!

        So who were those people who knew those codes words?  Who were the people who could be fooled about whether Bush was elite?  I suspect we are looking at people who have not done more than skim the front page of a newspaper.  We are looking at people to whom peer pressure is helpful to them in determining what has value.  We are looking at people who are used to the pulpit determining political issues, in some cases.  

        Now we have people trying to brand Obama as "elitist".  Which tells me that "elitist" has become another code word!

  •  THANK YOU Granny Doc!! This is what I've (4+ / 0-)

    been saying for a few weeks, now, as HRC and our  corporo-media complex have been aiming OUR primary toward the bottom of the barrel, REPUBLICAN mindset - and the very WORST of that mindset, mind you.

    i have been responding to the wright crap with - "i am a democrat - we don't judge people on the basis of how religious they are, or how patriotic they are."  or "i am a democrat - we are for separation of church and state."  or whatever else.  but we know this wasn't about religion - this was about race, and playing on the ignorance of culture and history.

    it's really sad that this campaign has put obama into a box of having to continually "denounce and reject" people - and they hope that by doing so, the AA community will self-disenfranchise, along with the democratic, other-than-AA community who cares about our equality of opportunity and works toward an end to socialized bigotry.

    great diary, granny doc - as usual.  thanks again.

    62169 - which apparently means A LOT.

    by jj24 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:29:43 AM PDT

  •  This is why America is so out of touch (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    Thanks this is finally some good conversation.They tout this as if to sa the eudcated do not mean anything just to get votes.
    I guess the pundits and MSM want to keep the ignorant ignorant as they can fly off for health care etc and not deal with america .My views below are relevant please make a diary post of it for me

    Thxs

    No wonder Americans are so out of touch as the so called people from which information is disseminated spew such garbage to get ratings that they are failing to lift people up.That is why america has to constantly "import " people.

    They need to travel the world to see stable contries where people vote on issues not association. Hillary stayed with Bill who humiliated her all these years in the highest public office and no one cares.She slept with the enemy.

    Grow up America and start by educating your working class who are willing to sell out their bridges and environmennt for a half a tank of gas. No wonder they remain in poverty keep them stupid I guess so we remain wealthy.  

    Your media suck, Here in Canada we knew long before as reported politically about the problems in Iraq and that is the reason our Prime DID NOT SUPPORT IT,Hillary did though I guess she was too busy listening to Bill's 3.am call from one of his people to read the intelligence report. The media has not figured it out.

    Grow up America media you will be better appreciated. As a Canadian I support PBS  it is the only station with intelligent journalism.This is why Obama will succeed like PBS no special interest therefore no special interest bias.  

  •  It's not working class whites per se (12+ / 0-)

    It's specifically older working class whites. Mystery Pollster had a very important blog about this a few days ago.  The short of it is, both income and education interact with age as predictors of Clinton-vs.-Obama preference: it's really only above age 45 that income and education have a significant effect on which of the candidates people prefer. Below 45, most of them are rooting for Obama, regardless of income and education level.

    Damn George Bush! Damn everyone that won't damn George Bush! Damn every one that won't put lights in his window and sit up all night damning George Bush!

    by brainwave on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:31:54 AM PDT

    •  And I still maintain that the older, working (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, juslikagrzly

      class whites will NEVER vote for a black man.  They grew up in a different time.  I know many of them (including in PA), and they won't vote for a black man.

      --Independent Impressed by Obama!

      by SnowItch on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:04:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with this (5+ / 0-)

        although I'm over 45 and I'm voting Obama.  I see this in my own family.  The younger generation is more open and willing to explore the biases we've generated in this country for years.  I still hear racist remarks from my mom and step-dad even though they'd swear they aren't racist.  It's tough to get people to examine the biases and assumptions we all hold dear.

        I for one am incredibly biased toward the religious right and it is difficult for me to listen and hear where they come from.  Obama is asking us to do just that--listen to each other.  What a concept!!

        "Hope" is the thing with feathers-that perches in the soul-and sings the tune without the words-and never stops-at all. Emily Dickinson

        by juslikagrzly on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:08:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  depends on the state, region, area of state (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishingwell, SnowItch
        •  I agree and make the same point (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Granny Doc

          in one of my other posts.

          I grew up in Oregon and never considered race to be a factor in friends/jobs/affliations.  My wife grew up in South Georgia and definitely considered race to be an issue.

          It was difficult getting my wife to come around.  Several years ago, we were having a discussion about our daughter dating a black man (this was on the way back from a visit with the in-laws in FL).  My wife literally shuttered at the thought (institutionally racist is a good discription).  I countered her reaction with two black men that worked with us.  Once I put the conversation in context of two people she knew who happened to be black (one of them was an outstanding young man who had served as a guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier), she started to look at race differently.  She now takes pride in our children's ability to see past color.

          --Independent Impressed by Obama!

          by SnowItch on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:56:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  My explanation of their "voting against their (5+ / 0-)

    interests"?  It depends on which interests are most important to them.  To some people, the most important interests are pro-life, not economic.  Their pocketbooks come second to what they see as moral interests.  My parents would be put into this category.  They are not stupid or "low-information" voters.  This is just how they feel.

    I'm not trying to defend it, just explain it.

    Age of maturity? When you're old enough to realize that your parents are actually smarter than you. Obama '08!

    by browneyes on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:32:38 AM PDT

    •  That's actually Thomas Franks' view (8+ / 0-)

      In his book "What's the Matter with Kansas", he points out that from the viewpoints of many, they are willingly making a moral sacrifice of their own personal material interests in order to vote for or support candidates who take what they feel (I think horribly wrongly) is a necessary moral position.

      In this view, many are not dupes, but willing martyrs of a sort.

    •  Moral interests not a complete explanation (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Granny Doc, browneyes

      I am familiar with the thinking of "low income non-college educated" white voters.  Altho my branch of the family moved away from the rural southern Ohio village to the East Coast a long time ago, I still remain in touch with many of these extended family members who remained there. I can tell you why they will not be voting for Obama, and its because he's black.  Not that they say that very loud, but thats the truthful underlying basis of their decision.

      For people in their reduced economic and social situation, the only other group they've ever been able to feel superior to are African Americans who they viewed as being even lower on the economic and social scale than themselves. Even when they lost their jobs, when their kids dropped out of high school, when they went to apply for welfare or food stamps, they could feel that AT LEAST they weren't black. Their racism allows them to retain a degree of pride, if for nothing else than the color of their skin.

      Not defending this ...its just how it is.

      •  I understand that as well. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishingwell

        I have no doubt that there is an undercurrent of racism among a large group of these voters.  Exactly what percentage, I'll never know.  But folks like my parents are not racists.  Hell, I'm adopted.  My birth mother was Cuban.  It's not like my mom and dad don't like "brown people."

        They have other reasons.

        Age of maturity? When you're old enough to realize that your parents are actually smarter than you. Obama '08!

        by browneyes on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:02:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I've run into this too (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Granny Doc, browneyes

      People who strictly vote "pro life" because they don't want their tax dollar used for abortions.  How they reconcile invading other countries, bombing the hell out of innocent civilians, and torture, well, I'll have to get back to you on that.

    •  There is an ongoing historical tension (7+ / 0-)

      Between the capitalists and what Marx referred to as the proletariat. The corporate media is in a conflict of interest when it comes to addressing the concerns of this class which would benefit from a more socialist economy (affordable health care for example). Have you noticed the proliferation of pharmaceutical ads on cable news networks?

      There has long been an effort to divide this class and keep a populist or socialist coalition from coalescing to challenge the capitalist hegemony as has happened in most other parts of the world. So they are told that the real issue is values or guns or scary hippies/blacks/others who are not as "American" as they are. They are fed a version of patriotism that amazingly helps line the pockets of multi-national corporations who have little allegiance to the well being of folks in this class. These corporate elites then bust unions and ship jobs overseas where labor is cheap. In America, they hire immigrants for dirt wages which puts downward pressure on all workers wages. They then use those immigrants as scapegoats and paint them as the problem in order to divert attention from the underlying issues.

      I think that this is what Obama was trying to say when he was speaking in SF and why the media jumped all over the words "bitter" and "cling" to divert working class attention from the deeper point he was getting at with his statements. They don't like the idea that someone with a good chance of being the next president is willing to voice his recognition of this ongoing ruse.

  •  At the risk of (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Fury, esquimaux, Granny Doc

    really being annoying ala:  

    As a Cognitive Psychologist, I have long been annoyed at the violative language used by media

    , the reason we got 2 terms of Bush was do to, IMO, the 'gomer' vote and these are not the people who generally vote Democratic.  As you say Doc, they vote against their economic interest consistently and based upon some narrow support line, i.e. abortion, race, religion, same-sex marriage, etc.

    We're not going to get these people with us in November unless we pander & even then not so much.

    Didja hear Obama answer Timmeh on this question:  Do you think the gas tax holiday is pandering?  Obama:YES

    Pander Bears we do not want to be.  Let's leave that to Hillary & McPoppy.

    "The Taking of America, 1..2..3" title of GWB biography

    by pattisigh on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:33:44 AM PDT

    •  Actually you are in error (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, tjb22, ggwoman55

      The reason George W Bush is POTUS is not the gomers, but rather rather the wealthy, who were voting in their economic interest, and the yupsters, who believed that they were voting in their economic interests.

      In 2004, those who earned less than $50,000 voted for Kerry. Every income group over $50,000 went for Bush. Those are the facts. But blaming working class for Bush perhaps asuages the consciences of the upper middle class, who aren't quite bright enough to understand that they are next. Working class jobs have been outsourced, and now it is the middle class positions, such as engineering, that are being oursourced to places like India and China.

      Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling. - Cake

      by slatsg on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:30:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        slatsg, wishingwell

        I identified gomers as people who

        vote against their economic interest consistently and based upon some narrow support line, i.e. abortion, race, religion, same-sex marriage, etc.

        But how disheartening to see that so many in the $50K+ income group voted not only against their self-interests but the country's as well.

        "The Taking of America, 1..2..3" title of GWB biography

        by pattisigh on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:56:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And to clarify (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          slatsg, wishingwell

          I do believe those that make $50K+ were indeed voting against their economic self-interest with Bush.  Those  in excess of $100K not so much.

          "The Taking of America, 1..2..3" title of GWB biography

          by pattisigh on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:00:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for the reply (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pattisigh, wishingwell, ggwoman55

          The question for the Democrats should be why some working people "vote against their economic interest consistently and based upon some narrow support line"?

          My take?

          Granted that some do vote against their own interests ... seemingly. But though most working people vote consistently for Democrats, the party, led by the DLC, has basically abandoned them.

          If Democrats are Rethug-lite, are working people actually voting against their interests. There are quite a few folks who actually don't see much of a difference between the parties on issues of concern to them.

          When Democrats abet the Iraqi invasion and occupation, support neo-lib economic policies, and the acquiesce to the dismanteling of the Constitution; the the only issues left are the so-called values issues. The reality is that these issues are way down the list for most working folks. If the Democrats again speak to and for workers, they will get their votes.

          Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling. - Cake

          by slatsg on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:17:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We may have (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            slatsg, wishingwell

            finally hit the tipping point here in that the economy has finally surpassed the Iraq war as the most important issue facing people in the election.  All those incomers between $50K & $100K are now feeling the pinch caused by their Bush vote in 2004.

            McOldster will still get the gomer vote when it comes to abortion, race, etc. but 'it's the economy stupid' voter is going to peel away.

            "The Taking of America, 1..2..3" title of GWB biography

            by pattisigh on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:28:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  The old "they're too dumb to vote intelligently" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fury

    Unfortunately, like everything else, there's a grain of truth to it, but it's what we're left with.  Hence, the shape of 'Merica today.

    Well, I guess I don't know what you mean by "equal justice under the law." - Bushy McSpokesperson

    by gatorcog on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:34:01 AM PDT

  •  Sitting in a Working Class Bar (17+ / 0-)

    Even though I am a highly educated professional elitist Obama supporter, I generally prefer to get my lunch during the workday away from my elitist colleagues. I usually go to one of the local joints where the working men frequent. By working, I mean mostly tradesmen -- electricians, carpenters, painters and the like. Now four years ago these guys would be debating whether  Kerry was a coward like they say on Fox, or just another whimp like Gore. How their tune has changed! Now it's which Democrat is best suited to beat McCain -- The Clinton machine or the Obama brain? The brain is apparently leading.

    I rarely say anything in these places except to offer my elitist assessment on the quality of the various ales on tap.

    The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by easong on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:35:51 AM PDT

    •  You made me SMILE!! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      easong, wishingwell

      No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

      by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:38:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm from a working class family and I wish just (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      easong, wishingwell, Granny Doc

      once I would hear something like that!  I'm currently on the outs with my Dad, who is a lifelong democrat, ex-union member and swing voter.  He informed me a week ago he's voting straight democratic...except for president...he's voting for McCain.  Oh, did I mention I've often told my Dad in the past that he's a racist?  Your anecdote gives me hope but my experience with my own family, white working class people from the northeast, makes me anxious.  I'm sure there are many like my Dad out there, but maybe it's more of a generational thing?  Obama (and all of us) definately have alot of work to do on this.  I don't think it's necessarily true that all of these people are just Republicans anyway.

      •  Has Your Dad Ever Heard Obama Speak? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Fury, Granny Doc

        I've seen him quiet the mouth of more than one "racist" white guy. Usually when they come to their senses you can tell because they say something like "well, I guess I like him better than Hillary".

        The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

        by easong on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:18:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  After our argument, where I accused him once (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          easong, Granny Doc, NY Dem

          again of being a racist and asked him to think about what color Jesus' skin might be, in our make-up phone call he told me he watched Michelle Obama on CNN (with Caroline Kennedy).  He was impressed.  And finally, he listened to my explanation of why this election was so important.  I'm trying to appeal to him on the basis that while he has his pension, social security, and VA medical benefits and noone's taking that away from him, our middle class status is being snatched away before our eyes. Think of your children, Dad!

    •  Thanks for that! *smiling* n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      easong, Granny Doc
  •  Hillary's last hope is to convince the SD's (9+ / 0-)

    that there are too many racists out there for Obama to be electable.  So we have the media calling this group the "white working class worker" as a polite way to say racists.  The truth is the republicans have the racist vote locked up anyway.  If Hillary did manage to get the SD's to fall for this racist argument and overturn the popular vote and elected delegates, Hillary would then have to try to get the black vote back into the Democratic fold.  The republicans would then paint those efforts as pandering to blacks.

    Data from the General Social Survey indicates that the attitudes toward race are relatively stable within age cohorts but that younger cohorts are more tolerant than older cohorts. America as a whole is becoming more tolerant because older more racist and bigoted cohorts die off and are being replaced by younger more tolerant cohorts. My examination of the data suggests that of whites now aged over 47 years of age, a majority can be persuaded to vote against Obama because he has a bit darker skin. That crossover point is now high enough to suggest that America is now sufficiently tolerant, that is enough of the old bigots have died off,  for Obama to be able to overcome the racist vote and win.  

    eschew obfuscation

    by jimG on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:36:03 AM PDT

  •  And another thing... (4+ / 0-)

    Isn't it funny how the media narrative sizes up the electorate? The black guy, the one with the funny, terrorist name, someone who in theory shouldn't have a chance in hell of winning the presidency, is the choice of "Latte-drinking coastal elites," the educated high-information voters.

    Hillary, on the other hand, is winning the hillbilly vote - poor trailer park trash denizens. It's time for all this to be over. The math is coming up Obama and it's time to focus on Dem versus republic.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:39:56 AM PDT

  •  What we need to do (6+ / 0-)

    is to move on into the future and not waste our energy running our collective heads against a brick wall. The fact is that it is 2008. The next President will be in office at least until 2013, if not 2017 (by the time another President in actually inaugerated.) In other words, the future is upon us - NOW! I think that's what Obama means by the "fierce urgency of now."  If you look at the very interesting article in today's New York Times by Friedman, you can see that other countries are rapidly moving ahead of us in terms of economy, education, science, forward-thinking, vision-casting for the future. He talks abut the vast difference between leaving on a plane from the  dirty dysfunctional and over-crowded airport at JFK and arriving at the ultra-modern airport in Singapore - complete with free internet access everywhere and play spaces for the kids. He also discussed the central train station in Berlin that is so far superior to Grand Central that it makes it look like we lost the war.

    In other words, our country is rapidly falling behind and rapidly losing it's status as a super-power, a bastion of hope, the place where inventions originate, the face of the future. This is happening because there's been entirely too much kowtowing to the most intractable, ignorant, and prejudiced among us. We can't do anything about them. What we need to do is to move fearlessly into the future. And bring along those who want to join with us. Friedman talks about the many Americans he met who want to do nation-building. Not in Afganistan or in Iraq, but here in America. Let's bring them along with us. It may call for an entirely new political coalition but it is one that I think can win. We owe it to our children and their children to join the 21st century and not leave America in the dust heap of history. Let's not forget that fortunes can change. Great Britain began the 20th Century as the greatest power on earth. "The sun never sat on the British Empire." It ended the 20th Century as a little, quaint, also-ran European country - still an interesting place, still an ally, still with some effect on popular culture, but nowhere near the superpower status it had one hundred years before. The same thing can and will happen to us if we let the most backward amongst us dictate our future.

    A practical example exists here where I live in a small town that for decades was stagnating because the people in power didn't want any change, didn't want to open it up to the outside world. People have literatlly told me that they had to wait for the older generation to die out before change could come - and come it did. This sleepy little town is now attracting over 14 million tourists each year. It's opened a convention center that is booked well into 2025. It has opened up areas that were, for all intents and purposes, closed to outsiders and now people have come here from all over the United States and from abroad. There's new development going on in connection with a little two-lane highway that is going from a quiet little road with the occasional antique store or christmas lights store, to something the media is calling the "Billion Dollar Highway." And it's all happening now.

    I think this is a case of what kind of future do we want. Let's not forget that many of the "authoritarian" types were the ones telling people to not go to the "moving picture show." Some people still prefer horse and buggie transportation. That's great. But the rest of us need to move into the kind of future we want. Bill Clinton used the theme song during his first election: "Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow." That was great for that time. But it's no longer about "tomorrow," the future is here today and we must gird ourselves to act NOW.

    •  Where Are You From? What Made The Changes? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      Your town sounds like a potential model for other small towns.  It would be important to learn how it was transformed from a sleepy backwater to a thriving tourist attraction.  could you give more details?

      •  I'm guessing Tennessee (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Granny Doc

        Sevierville, to be exact.

        Google "Billion Dollar Highway," and there are stories about it being Highway 66 that leads to Gatlinburg and Dollywood through the Great Smoky Mountains. Great Smoky Mountains National Park is THE most visited national park in the US.

    •  Excellent comment, You should do a diary on your (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      town sometime. This is a such a good post, it was better than many diaries. It is very interesting and thought provoking CC4 !!!

      He also discussed the central train station in Berlin that is so far superior to Grand Central that it makes it look like we lost the war.

      I am beginning to firmly believe Germany learned more through losing the war and coming to terms with how the Nazis were able to amass that much power than we did by winning the War. Germany had to examine their past and be critical of themselves to move ahead. And they did.  By winning the war ( which we had to go to stop Hitler and the Nazis)....I think it might have been the beginning of America becoming too smug, too arrogant, feeling America has no faults, and that America was a super power who the right to be imperalists and destroy any country at will.

      Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

      by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:41:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not About Indiana (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Granny Doc, Allogenes

    It's not about Indiana.  It's about voters in two states, Ohio and Pennsylvania, where this demographic could make the difference between a Democratic Party win and a GOP win.

    There are other factors.

    But I think that it is a good idea for Obama to figure out what these voters want and find a way to promise it to them.

    •  If the Republican control (3+ / 0-)

      of government since 1980 had not wrecked the budget, they could be promised what they want.   Unfortunately, what they want is too expensive and will take decades to achieve.  I wouldn't want Obama to promise anything he can't deliver.  If they can't get that, well...the hell with 'em.  <g>

      No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

      by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:43:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I would also add (4+ / 0-)

        that many of the citizens of these rust belt states are unwilling to take measures into their own hands to try and create change. I live in one of the most conservative regions of PA  and many of our 47+ generation are very reluctant to embrace any kind of change.  The kids are different - they want change and they get it by leaving. So the state gets older and older and we still have people talking about bringing the mills back.  

    •  most of them want a women (6+ / 0-)

      because what's being ignored here is that the vast majority of these white working class are white working class women who share a profound sense of identification with Hillary Clinton.

      Obama's problem is that he is being demonized by Clinton while McCain gets a free ride.

      50% of women voting for McCain in battleground states think he's a pro-choice. How many disaffected Clinton supporters do you think are in there? Lured in by the myth of the "moderate maverick?"

      I'm willing to bet a ton, and once it becomes evident that McCain, is in fact, Bush 2.0, the evil Obama will suddenly be a lot more appealing.

      •  Agreed Stro (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Granny Doc

        Until this primary is over, much will be a mystery as to how some of these older women voters will vote in November. Right now, they are firm supporters of Hillary and many want a woman President. As they realize and discover McCain is McBush and that the things they stand for are not the values of McBush....I think many will be Obama supporters.

        Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

        by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:45:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Focusing all energy on one demographic (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Granny Doc

      Is an easy way to lose. You make it perceptible that you have a problem with this demographic which makes it all the more difficult to overcome. All eyes are on your effort to speak to that demographic which raises the chance of a slip or gaffe being used against you and pandering is obvious.

      Barack simply needs to keep truth telling and getting up close and personal with voters, going to where they are.

      I don't know how Indiana will turn out, but I feel better about it today than I did two weeks ago because of how Barack's campaigned there.

      I honestly think that the more people hear truth from Barack and the more that differs from what they hear from the talking heads, the more likely they are to rally behind him.

      The truth can win Democrats this election, regardless of the demographic if Democrats simply make a concerted effort to reach out to everyone.

    •  only if he can change his skin color (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Granny Doc

      would these people reconsider.  Can we stop trying to figure out what racists and bigots want?  We know the answer.  

  •  It's just like everything else they do (8+ / 0-)

    whatever they are guilty of, they accuse their opponents for.

    The chickenhawks accuse the veterans of weakness.

    The philanderers accuse the stable family guys of bad morals.

    The bigots accuse the minority guy of racism.

    They are more and more shameless about it every year.

    John McCain - Like W. Only Older.

    by InsultComicDog on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:43:43 AM PDT

  •  the big point is that the majority of (5+ / 0-)

    white working class voters in a Democratic primary are... white working class women.

    I think personal identification has everything to do with Clinton's strength among this demographic... and there's nothing wrong with that.

    It would be interesting to see how this race would have turned out had it ended up being Edwards and Obama. Would those women have flocked to Edwards the way they did for Clinton? I honestly don't think they would have. Take the women's solidarity element out of this race, and Obama has a huge block of potential voters to go after that are rendered unavailable by Clinton's presence in this race.

    As such, it's nonsense to suggest that these women will all run to McCain over race.

    Of course, the media is doing everything it can to encourage this, and Clinton's negativity towards Obama is also facilitating defections by demonizing him while praising McCain.

    A recent poll by Planned Parenthood found that 50% of swing state women who said they would choose McCain over Obama thought he was pro-choice.

    Don't be mistaken, if we had a united Democratic Party working to get the truth out about McCain, Obama's numbers would rise.

    Obama's race, IMO, is a marginal factor.

    •  In an interview yesterday (7+ / 0-)

      a white woman of approximately 60 years of age was asked at a Clinton rally why she supported Hillary.

      "Because it's time for a woman to be President", she said.

      I have been ingesting aspirin on a regular schedule, ever since.

      No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

      by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:46:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  it's an understandable sentiment (4+ / 0-)

        how many African-Americans feel that way about Obama? A whole lot.

        You can't disregard the power of personal identification among oppressed minorities... and white working class women, having to put up with misogyny from their Republican husbands and employers, definitely qualify as an oppressed minority.

        The problem, of course, is that the purpose of Clinton's "kitchen sink" campaign is to demonize Obama when the real enemy is John McCain.

      •  I'm a white, not-quite-60 woman (6+ / 0-)

        and more or less at the high end of working class (or lower middle) and am constantly annoyed hearing pundits declare that I'm a Hillary supporter just because of my age, race and gender.

        I have never been a Hillary supporter.

        We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars. --Oscar Wilde

        by zerelda on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:55:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Me too Zerelda, me too ! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Granny Doc

          I am a 51 year old white woman in a rather conservative county in Central PA. Hillary supporters would call me and be shocked, dismayed, and disappointed that I would not for Hillary.

          A Hillary canvasser even told me when he came to my home. He said,

          I suggest you educate yourself on Hillary's policies and that you become better informed !

          I said,

          Young man, while I applaud your political activism, do not stand there and tell me I am not informed and not engaged in politics. I am very well informed, well educated and quite aware of all of the reasons I am voting for Barack Obama. And insulting me and other voters will only hurt your candidate. I will forget more about politics as I grow older and more senile than you currently know.

          Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

          by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:51:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Good Point re Edwards (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc, Stroszek

      The very reason Edwards could not gain enough traction was that working white women identified with the woman in the race more than the candidate best representing their own financial interests. As a white man, I supported Edwards despite the fact that I thought it was already past time we had a woman (or an African-American) president. And I initially supported Hillary after Edwards dropped out (until my working white wife talked me into Obama).

      The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by easong on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:51:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There (4+ / 0-)

    is nothing new in the deliberate fragmentation of our society as you well understand my dear  Granny Doc.
    Your diary does an admirable job of pointing out that some folks are still easily spoon fed regardless of what they accept as food.
    What is quite remarkable is that only 53% of "working class whites" still buy the argument.  
    This is the primary statistic I am taking from your efforts.  I am sure that in 1994 the number was closer to 70% or 75%.
    The other number that is so astounding is that after millions of dollars and hours of free media later, Hillary is doing no better than 43% among this group.
    Take heart my dear fellow citizen!
    We are doing far better along the lines of unifying our society that even we know which is why those that oppose us are attempting to manipulate us through the mischaracterization of racial data in order to frighten and anger us.
    Now is the time to redouble our efforts and to continue to close and bind the shards and fragments that these perpetrators of divided society continue to hoist upon us.
    Thank you again Granny Doc for an excellent and timely diary.    

    •  and remember that this exit polls mean nothing in (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      November as they fail to take into account

      Women who are huge Hillary supporters but will vote for the Democratic nominee in November.

      Those working class whites who always vote for a Republican for President in the General Election.

      Those Hillary supporters who want Bill to have another term or want a 2 for 1 Presidency. Some of these folks will be voting for Obama in November.

      Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

      by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:54:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Great observation. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, Allogenes

    I guess when one of the democratic candidates makes use of the Rove playbook, lines between parties become blurred.  And how do we escape ignorance when ignorance for so many is the agenda.

    Waters? What waters? We're in the desert. I was misinformed.

    by BA BarackUS on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:46:51 AM PDT

  •  At an anti-war protest in D.C. couple years ago.. (10+ / 0-)

    Among thousands of clever slogans, the one that sticks with me was on a t-shirt: I want a President who is smarter than I am. Well, I want a leader who IS not elitist but elite...with a first rate education, broad worldview, compassion and vision. And class! I want class!  After Bush, I want a president who won't make a fool of him/her self and has read a few books.  When did it become essential for politicians to pander to the lowest among us: ill informed, quasi-religious bigots who, an Granny notes, consistently vote against their own interests? -or, venal corporatists willing to screw over the nation for profit and power? I say...write off the 28% and appeal to the best among us.

  •  Superb analysis. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Granny Doc, llamaRCA

    They're covering this Dem primary just as they cover general elections:  from the Republicans' point of view, with a focus on Republican voters.

  •  If we want this to change, we'll have to do more (8+ / 0-)

    than elect Obama. We'll have to re-introduce federal regulation and oversight of the media.

    As long as the MSM remains a third arm of the Republican party, it will remain a mass-hypnosis device that catapults and reinforces memes (and bigotry) throughout its viewing population.

    We're going to be fighting this battle in 2010, in 2012, in 2014, and in every election year until we change this fundamental aspect.

    cold war clinton make iran go boom!

    by haruki on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:49:31 AM PDT

  •  Grannt Doc; I am shocked, yes, shocked that you (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fury, tjb22, Granny Doc, ggwoman55

    are surprised by the idiocy of these pundits telling us who is voting for who.  Don't you know by now that us "elitists" don't count; that we libuls are are not true 'Murrikins---only those Red state white voters matter?

  •  thanks (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, Allogenes

    for giving voice to what's been on my mind the last few days. It seems that every 4 years we go through a pander-fest to the "working class American" who belongs to(a nostalgic version of)the past more than to the present..or future. Then after fluufing them for awhile, we go back to policies which assure their continued destruction...

    •  Yes so true as it seems every 4 years like (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      clockwork, suddenly the regular people as Tweety calls them, matter. The media insists the only people worth mentioning are those are likely to vote for a Republican in the General election anyway. Suddenly these so called Reagan Democrats are all that matter. I still think Reagan Democrats, most of them, are now Republicans. Or if they have not switched officially, they tend to vote Republican except for primaries.

      Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

      by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:56:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you that is what I thought.nt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    WE must hang together or we will all hang separately. B.Franklin

    by ruthhmiller on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:55:51 AM PDT

  •  Misreading the Polls (8+ / 0-)

    Many of these "pundits" are misreading the poll results. They see the majority of white working class males voting for Hilary and have automatically assumed they won't vote for Obama.  That's not true.  If they're Democrats they will.  If they're Republicans, they won't.

    The sacred cow no one wants to mention here is racism.  A large segment of this group still clings to racial stereotypes and would never vote for a black candidate.  The commentators tsk-tsk-ing at this carries as much weight as they're shock over Miley Cyrus showing her back.  The coalition cobbled together by FDR is long gone.

    What is more relevant is the behavior of Hilary Clinton whose lies, distortions and smears make her seem more like a Republican than a Democrat.  If she is the candidate I will not vote.  We don't need another  President who is dishonest and lives in a delusional fantasy world.  

  •  In the book "Free Ride" (7+ / 0-)
    David Brock and Paul Waldman posit that the media lusts after McCain and constantly mentions his Vietnam heroism because many of them did not serve and that is something they lack.

    Perhaps they keep lusting after the white, working class voter (such as myself) because they fret during their DC cocktail parties that they are out of touch with people outside their bubble.
    Or they lack working-class-ness.  Or something.
    Having grown up around white working class folks such as this, I can categorically state in my overgeneralized unscientific way that a good 70% of these people are right-wing republicans.  They want an old white man for president.  They always do.  We can, and should, try to eat into that base, but it is what it is.  But that's just my opinion.  I really don't know shit, actually.

  •  Because the fix is in...and the media is just one (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, BigVegan

    tool.

    We should all understand this by now.

    Obama is to be destroyed because he is a threat to elite powerbase of this country.

    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. --Thomas Paine

    by David Kroning on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:02:01 AM PDT

  •  Let's see now... (4+ / 0-)

    the majority of America is white, a majority of whites work, and a majority of white workers rely solely upon wage income to support their families.  To paraphrase a line from the Princess Bride, I do think "white working class voter" means what the media thinks it means.

    It is code for the niche marketing of political ideas that dominates the commentariat.  And this niche marketing is the basis upon which Mark Penn has built a career deriving political strategy.  The media's uncritical use of this term reinforces the frame in which Penn pushes his ideas.  It gains instant credibility because it fits the media's existing frame.  Hence Clinton's "success" with white working class voters.  Someone trying to do things differently necessarily runs into resistance from the media because these new arguments do not neatly align with that frame.  Non-East Coast and Rust Belt working whites don't count (even if they have similar demographics other than geography).

    Niche marketing works with consumer products.  Why just have Coke when you can have Diet Coke, Caffeine Free Diet Coke, Cherry Coke, Coke Zero, etc.  You can bring something different while maintaining the essence of the original.

    I'm not sure politics can truly work this way.  It is an effective way to pander, but isn't not truly a governing strategy.

    "And if I don't see ya, in a long, long while, I'll try to find you left of the dial" - Paul Westerberg

    by D Wreck on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:02:46 AM PDT

  •  These voters (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    math monkey, Vengeur

    used to vote democratic before Reagan came along.  Reagan broke up the New Deal coalition.

    I'm not addressing your larger point of why the media is whining over this voting block; however, I believe some democrats may want this voting block back.  Because democrats' policies generally favor these people and because it's a large block of voters, it would be nice to get their votes.

    Your dismissive attitude toward these voters is disturbing.

    Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

    by dfarrah on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:05:12 AM PDT

    •  Dismissive??? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TracieLynn, wishingwell, dmh44, bakenjuddy

      I was questioning the MEDIA, not the voters.  Geeze...

      No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

      by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:24:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, I (0+ / 0-)

        suppose I could have misinterpreted, but I thought this sentence was rather insulting:

        These are the folks who are suffering the most from the divisive tactics of modern politics, but who do not have the skills, or investment, to see beyond the TV ads, and their own limited world view.

        But re-reading, I guess you could say the sentence did express concern over these people as well.

        My impression of your diary was 'why the heck should we care about these repub voters anyway?'

        Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

        by dfarrah on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:39:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I would like to know (5+ / 0-)

    where all these "lunch bucket" jobs are. They were disappearing when I left Michigan.

    "The real abyss that lies not too far ahead is that day when a disappointed people lose their hope forever, everything we cherish will be lost." - Harvey Milk

    by RandySF on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:09:58 AM PDT

    •  and they have disappeared in Pittsburgh and much (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      of the so called Rust Belt as well as most of America. Many of these factories and steel mills and coal mines have shut down.  Many of these Union jobs have disappeared as well where someone could get out of high school and get a good paying Union job with excellent benefits.

      But even the non Union factory jobs have disappeared.

      Many college educated people are making low wages in Central PA too.

      Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

      by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:10:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  "Aren't these what we call Reagan Democrats?" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    the fan man, Granny Doc, cloos

    Yes.  (IMHO) They are the Democrats that cost Democrats the election.  They are the soft support most easily peeled away by wedge issues and "character" issues.

    The problem is, if we start ignoring these voters we need to come up with millions more voters elsewhere to replace them.  If we ignore them in the general, we lose.  If we ignore them in the primary, we have to fight twice as hard to get them back for the general.

    The media is biased against Democrats and they are choosing numbers that include Republicans in order to distort the picture.  But even without the distortion, the picture is still there.

    If you limit this to people who voted for Kerry last time, you would still see that a sizable number of Democrats fit this group, especially in a red state like Indianna.  By and large, this group of voters is the backbone of the labor wing of our party.  

    We have to make sure they feel listened to so that they can lose gracefully instead of feeling bitter.

    Don't do the Republican's work for them.

    by math monkey on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:13:43 AM PDT

    •  They are republicans. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Granny Doc

      Sorry, if you've voted for the republican presidential candidate in 6 out of the 8 past elections, I don't know how else to define you.

    •  Working people vote consistently for Democrats .. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ActivistGuy, Allogenes, cloos

      despite the fact that the party, led by the DLC, has basically abandoned them.

      When Democrats  abet the invasion, neo-lib economic policies, and the dismanteling of the Constitution, the only issues left are the so-called values issues. The reality is that these issues are way down the list for most working folks, and if the Democrats would again speak to and for workiers, they would get their votes.

      Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling. - Cake

      by slatsg on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:42:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's making me crazy, too-- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    MSNBC declares "Obama faltering with working-class whites" and that polls show he's in increasing trouble with "this very important group." Any way they can spin it negatively against Obama, the msm goes for it. I didn't click on the story.

    "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli." - Peter Clemenza

    by collardgreens on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:13:46 AM PDT

  •  An evil idea whose time has ? (0+ / 0-)

    Could we change the desire-ableness of this demographic if we did a massive distribution of "White Trash For Hillary" t-shirts, bumper stickers, posters...

    No one wants to be labeled white trash and it may make some folks rethink their support of Hillary.

    Maybe I'm an elitist but to me, when I hear "Low information white voter" I DO think "Oh, you mean white trash..."

    •  Actually, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell

      if you are white trash, it isn't such a bad label.  It's only people who aren't white trash that are offended by the label.

      Where I grew up white trash just means poor, white people who spend their money on above-ground pools and big TVs when they got money.  They tend to be working-class.

      White trash doesn't mean stupid.  White trash doesn't automatically mean voting Republican either.

      I'm the first in my family to make it to college, but both of my parents are very intelligent and thoughtful people.  

      You aren't an elitist to think the "low information voter" means "white trash" you just are not very knowledgeble about this segment of the population.

      Also, some educated people are "low information voters."

      You've fallen into the trap of stereotyping.

      Peace

      •  No, I'm countering the elitist trap (0+ / 0-)

        Let the "low information voters" PROVE they are not white trash...

        Just like they're trying to make the "high info voters" prove they are not elitist.

        •  But why? (0+ / 0-)

          You are still arguing that "low information voters" need to prove they aren't white trash.  White trash isn't a bad label.  Elitist isn't a bad label.  Both of these labels descibe segments of society.

          "They" are arguing that Obama voters are elitist, not high info voters.

          "They" are arguing that "low info" voters are white trash and support Hillary.

          "They" are promoting strife to increase ratings and are acting like idiots.

          •  They never say white trash, tho (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Granny Doc

            Instead they promote the idea that these types of voters are the ones critical for the functioning of our country. And I'm saying, flatly, that they are NOT. They HURT democracy.

            If a well-educated Hillary supporter shows up and wants to debate issues then more power to them. No one would consider them white trash.

            But the ones that gulp down sound bites and regurgitate dog whistles...these are not paragons of citizenry. They are white trash and it is NOT OKAY to be that way.

            By their "concern" the media is justifying and possibly even glorifying the continuing existence of ignorant white racist voters.

            Being a white trash voter is not something to be proud of and it's time someone pointed that out.

            •  I think you get into a (0+ / 0-)

              political moral correctness bind when the value of other races' low info votes are thrown into the equation.

              Identifying the demographic by its race in the context of your description is just wrong.

          •  And I'd like to point out that being educated (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wishingwell, Granny Doc, hulagirl

            ...i.e., "elitist" is now being bandied about as if it is a bad thing.

            Being educated, whether formally or informally, is NEVER A BAD THING.

            What the HELL is wrong with people?? Since when did being uneducated become the American dream?

    •  I hate the term "white trash" (4+ / 0-)

      because it demeans fellow human beings -- I don't want to go down that slippery slope.

      The key isn't to insult them, but to educate them -- do what we can now with the older generations, and get the younger generations educated in the school system. Ideally, I think a person should be able to come out of high school able to (1) hold a job that provides a livable wage, and (2) able to take their place in a  civil society. We used to have #1, with Auto Shop and Metal Shop and other such classes, as well as strong unions who'd take on the kids out of high school and put them into good jobs. Not everyone is cut out for four years, or even two years, of college. But we're all in this together -- we have to stop thinking of ourselves as the "elites" and "non-elites" and unite in a common cause of bringing sanity back to this country.

      "Old soldiers never die -- they get young soldiers killed." -- Bill Maher

      by Cali Scribe on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:01:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I hate it too (5+ / 0-)

        But I hate it more when white folks I know don't bother to listen to any news beyond Fox and Rush.

        I hate it when a fucking 23-year white guy tells ME (a 46-year-old mother of 2 girls in college) that America isn't ready for a black or a woman president.

        I hate it when a 30-something white chick tells me it's Hillary's turn.

        I hate it when my redneck brother tells me I'm drinking a nigger's koolaid.

        Stereotypes? They don't hatch out of thin air.

  •  What I want to know is (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, hulagirl

    how does HRC think she's going to win a general election without the "latte drinking, volvo driving, limousine liberal" branch of the Democratic party she's been dissing for the past year?

  •  The Term Working Class is Being Misused (9+ / 0-)

    I live paycheck to paycheck, job to job with little health insurance as a writer and willing servant to the film industry. I'm working class along with a lot of my friends who are pinned down by credit card and student loans while trying to get by. But because we don't drive a truck, or have cracked open a book lately they aren't working class.

    What the media seems to be focusing on is just straight up White Trash. Sorry if that's harsh but it is also true.  And I am frankly tired of the agenda in this country being set and dictated  by those that aren't just poor or uneducated, but those that are actively anti-education, bigoted beyond comprehension, and look upon those with different lifestyles as freaks.

    It is time to stop pandering to the worst element in society.

    •  We know that there are (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Granny Doc

      ignorant, bigoted people living in this country.  It comes as no surprise to anyone.  I'm tired of having my state (Ohio) being defined by this small minority of its overall population.

      And you know, some of these people are still learning!  And we believe even they can, and sometimes do, change. And we believe setting the stage that allows them to do so is a good thing.  That's why we're democrats.

    •  What is the definition (0+ / 0-)

      of working class?  Middle class?  Does it have to do with salary?  Tax brackets?   Just wondering.  Someone give me a specific definition, if there is one.  Thanks.

      The obligation to endure gives us the right to know. -- Rachel Carlson

      by Silent Spring on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:37:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  True, there is a distinction (0+ / 0-)

      I have a good example of that.

      I have a very progressive Poor friend who is self educated, very well informed, and extremely intelligent. He has struggled financially his entire life. But the man is positively Gifted intellectually without a college degree.  He values and respects education and progressive thinking and shuns racism.

      I also have a neighbor who does not have a college degree but is not struggling financially to the degree that my friend is. But this person SHUNS education, insults those with college degrees, makes fun of those who are politically active, and basically HATES any dicussion that is not about Reality TV or NASCAR. He is openly hostile to anyone with a college degree especially professors, teachers, doctors, lawyers, nurses and so on.

      Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

      by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:19:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My pet peeve: (4+ / 0-)

    When polling is done, they will spout off that "33 percent of the people don't approve" of this or that about Obama....no one ever takes the time to explain that this is the percentage of voters who will NEVER vote for a democrat.  Surprise, surprise!  They're republicans!

    I'm listening to Michelle Obama right now on cspan and she's giving her usual speech and talking about "bars being rasied".  Yep.  Now the democrat has to prove that he can get 100 percent of the vote in a general election.

  •  Since the beginning of time, every great empire (6+ / 0-)

    has fallen.

    Phoenician, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, British, etc. etc. etc.  Generally, these empires have fallen for the same reasons that ours is now folding - minus the outrageous hacks in the media, Moyers and maybe Olbermann and one or two others excluded.

    America is no different than those other empires, except as outlined above vis a vis biased media pundits making millions of dollars based on a previously great job some of them may have had with former statesman/elected officials - looking at you, Tweety and the often insufferably not-so-smart Russert.

    So all we can attempt to do is soften the fall, and an Obama-led US may have a chance to do that. His turn on Meet the Press this morning, where he spoke logically and intelligently about our myriad problems, proves he's the best we need to do at this juncture in our history.

    As to Granny Doc's headline question - it's a good one.  

    What Washington needs is adult supervision. ~ Sen. Barack Obama, Oct. 2006

    by 99 Percent Pure on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:22:28 AM PDT

  •  "working" class voters seems to be a (5+ / 0-)

    rapidly diminishing demographic given the prognosis in this economy.

    "I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." --Aristotle

    by java4every1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:22:50 AM PDT

  •  What's a good definition... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dopper0189

    of working class?  Middle class?  Does it have to do with salary?  Expendable income?  Where you live?  Just wondering.  Someone help me to understand this.

    The obligation to endure gives us the right to know. -- Rachel Carlson

    by Silent Spring on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:23:35 AM PDT

    •  I had the same question... (0+ / 0-)

      Here's what wikipedia has to say: working class.

      Seems to be people who do physical work.

    •  It depends on whom you ask (4+ / 0-)

      The media will call working class.

      1. A family who earns under $50,000.
      1. A person who graduated from highschool but not college.

      These present problems. I know of a plumber who makes over $75,000 a year. Now under definition 1 he isn't working class, under 2 he is.  I also know a newly graduated teacher, who becuase she is still a sub makes under $50,000. Under point 1 she is working class, under point 2 she isn't.

      The major problem is the media won't stay consistant. They will change deffs to fit their argument. Case in point. They used one criteria in Ohio, another in Penn. They are using arguments to fit their facts, instead of facts to fit their argument.

      BTW I had to turn off Louy Dobbs the other night, he actually let a "pundit" combine the two numbers to say the white working class was over 50% of the US electorate.

      -1.63/ -1.49 "Speaking truth to power"

      by dopper0189 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:31:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  well said dopper (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Granny Doc

        Yes !

        My cousin did not graduate from college. He makes over 80k per year and his wife makes over 40k.

        A close friend of mine has 2 college degrees and she considers herself lucky if she makes more than 25k per year.

        Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

        by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:23:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Working Class is somebody who has to work (0+ / 0-)

        for a living. That means if you stop working, you will die.

        Thomas Jefferson thought it was a good thing.

        But some folks here think it is a bad thing.

        The 'popular culture' has encouraged the
        belief in the aristocracy of self-delusion.

        "I have a degree, and I work in an office
        so I'm superior to a guy who didn't go to college
        and drives a truck to work".

        Stock Brokers are superior to Farmers,
        Carpenters can't read, and  people who disagree with me need an education.

        THEY are stupid,
        WE are smart,
        THEY are bigots,
        and WE are better able to govern because WE
        are MIDDLE CLASS.

        Truman is spinning in his grave.

        Friends, conversation that begin with the words
        "THOSE PEOPLE" usually ends with a long piece of rope.

        Y'all sound like a pack of Republicans
        that couldn't get into the Country Club.

        We're ALL peasants in this country.
        Some have just forgotten that.  

        We are ALL Working Class.

    •  good question as among my friends (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc

      many of us have masters degrees but we live in an area where the wages are low and the benefits horrible for those with or without a college degree.

      Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

      by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:22:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  GrannyDoc: Elitist or Snob? (0+ / 0-)
  •  Bravo (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    -1.63/ -1.49 "Speaking truth to power"

    by dopper0189 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:24:37 AM PDT

  •  As we briefly mentioned (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tjb22, Granny Doc

    the other day....Granny Doc, thanks for the work (both grunt and mental grunt) to put this together in a clear and concise manner that we can understand.  (Cognitive psychologist, indeed!!  Yes, indeed.)

    So it is not surprising that I agree with you about this.  You've bottom-lined it:  So, it is now Republican voters who will decide our nominee?  The jig is up Hillary and your MSM water carriers.  

    The funny thing is, if Hillary wins, her MSM buddies will turn on her and fire away.  Then, we'll end up with the most lame of them all, John McCain.

    Clearly, the Democrats want an Obama win.  If he can win against Hillary, think of the trouncing McCain is in for.

    White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 6/07)

    by nolalily on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:26:40 AM PDT

  •  Who? Blue collar, social conservative, continued (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, blinktmnt182

    older neighborhoods, sports fans, military connection, children, older cars, patriotic, street smart, liberal press hating, little league, parents that need help, Reagan lovers, crime conscious.

    They are also dependent on social security, health care worries, job security concerns, impact of drug and sex culture on their families, cost of living.

    They feel unrepresented by both rich appeasing  Republicans and poor appeasing Democrats. They are the forgotten family oriented middle class.

    •  that is a broad canvas of people but I see (0+ / 0-)

      Your point.

      I come from a military family but none of us fit that mold, we also love sports but we are mostly all Progressives.

      Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

      by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:25:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ie I should have said (0+ / 0-)

        Some fit that mold, others are outside that mold of people you describe but have the same characteristics too.

        The media broadly stereotypes and that is what I dislike about their analysis the most.

        Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

        by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:27:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The reason is simple (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cali Scribe, Fury, Granny Doc, NeeshRN

    The corporatists are terrified that Obama IS going to win.  They're using everything they can think of to derail our train.  (I believe if they could they would limit the franchise to white low information voters --they did that for as long as they could)

    These voters are "the most important" because the MSM says they are.  I think they're trying to get everyone else to think so too, because they're the main group of voters who won't vote for Barack.  

    The comedy (it isn't all that funny) of corporate media's coverage of this primary season is watching them scramble for meme after meme trying to find one that refutes what's actually been happening.  Barack is going to be our next president.  

    What we're seeing is corporatism sticking its fingers in its ears and yelling "nahnahnahnahnah".

  •  They're a "mirage" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, SciVo

    gulped by the thirsty press, panting for "stories". By November, (many of) those voters will go for McCain; the pundits will be screaming "What did Hillary do wrong?" not "OMG, we were wrong!"

  •  Thoughtful And Incisive Analysis (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Granny Doc, jennylind

    I myself have watched incredulously as our Democratic nomination process has become driven by the demands of people like Pat Buchanan, Joe Scarborough and Rush Limbaugh.  Speaking strictly from an ethical standpoint, I find Hillary's espousal of their electoral math, aside from being gratuitous,  simply indefensible.

    It is also highly insulting to loyal Democrats. But it is ridiculous for me to expect the Clintons to feel shame.

  •  Count me out, Granny (6+ / 0-)

    I'm a former Republican. White, older woman over 50.
    My last job was Walmart.  

    According to the media, I should not be voting for Obama.

    Funny thing, happened before I went off to my blue collar job...I saw the Obamas on Oprah.

    This so-called low info voter had the smarts to see that Obama was brilliant, compassionate...and, our last chance to turn this country around.

    I don't think I'm alone. Lots of folks are sick of the Republicans and the Conservatives and the War Hawks.

    And, since Hillary sounds like one of the above idiots...

    Please sign the Color OF Change petition at their website.

    by redtex on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:32:48 AM PDT

  •  What's a good definition... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SciVo

    of working class?  Middle class?  Do these socioeconomic labels have to do with salary?  Tax brackets?   Just wondering.  Someone get specific, please.

    The obligation to endure gives us the right to know. -- Rachel Carlson

    by Silent Spring on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:33:40 AM PDT

  •  White working their asses off class (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ActivistGuy, redtex

    to try to maintian their standard of living class. White fed up with Democratic-Republican collusion in "free-trade" and monumentally expensive military adventures and occupations class . Disparage them all you like. But if you are tired of being f*cked and stolen from, you need to spend some time trying to unite them with everybody else who is sick of getting the shaft of Bushes "loanership society".

    I learned French because I like the language. I'm learning Spanish because I like the people who speak it.

    by Vengeur on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:36:49 AM PDT

    •  that's an important end (5+ / 0-)

      you need to spend some time trying to unite them with everybody else who is sick of getting the shaft of Bushes "loanership society".

      the problem is the main instrument once used to precisely that end, labor unions, have been crushed under the wheels of the modern Corporate State, and there are no alternative means of information and self-empowerment for these atomized, isolated working-class whites.  Who is there, what means are there, for them to receive valid and trusted information about their own real interests?  The corporate media?  Local political power brokers?  the pastors of their churches who know that God is all about gays, guns and abortion?  Only rebuilding a labor movement from the ground up can create such a means, but if we recall, American unions were built in the first place by socialists, communists and anarchists with a political commitment to workers' power, and no such elements exist in any numbers in modern America.

  •  The bias of the media is a given, what's going on (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, ActivistGuy, Granny Doc

    now is the incendiary startegy of HRC and her bottom-feeding advisors: Wolfson, Carville, et al. Obliterating Iran, gas tax holidays, and Rev. Willie Horton-Wright! She's dedicated to ruling or ruining the state and it's beyond obvious that cackling witch will have her day since the rest of the Dems have shown the same amount of backbone or lack thereof they have exhibited versus Cheney-Bush!

    If the Dem leadership had any value at all, the gas tax bill would be her final act of duplicity. She has legitimized an issue that could have been used to display McCain's utter inanity but now the Repugs can rally round that flag and the Dems will sheepishly be forced to go along. Maybe the best thing that could happen would be if the nomination were stolen and Obama and the rest of us woke up and ran as an independent third-party candidate! Under the Clinton's onslaught, it's beginning to look as if Nader is right: there may not be a dime's worth of differrence between the two major parties!

    •  What the right says about Hillary now (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Granny Doc

      National Review:

      She's entering the culture war as a general. All of this has made her a far more formidable general election candidate. She's fighting the left and she's capturing the center. She's denounced MoveOn.org. She's become the Lieberman of the Democratic Party. The left hates her and treats her like Lieberman. . . . Obama is distancing himself from Wright and Hillary is getting in touch with O'Reilly. The culture war has come to the Democratic Party.

      She might run to the right of McCain, if she makes it to the general election, and get the votes of rebellious conservatives.

      The Weekly Standard:

      If this weren't enough to make right-wing hearts flutter, Hillary has another brand-new advantage: She is hated on all the right fronts. The snots and the snark-mongers now all despise her, along with the trendies, the glitzies; the food, drama, and lifestyle critics, the beautiful people (and those who would join them), the Style sections of all the big papers; the slick magazines; the above-it-all pundits, who have looked down for years on the Republicans and on the poor fools who elect them, and now sneer even harder at her. The New York Times is having hysterics about her. At the New Republic, Jonathan Chait (who inspired the word "Chaitred" for his pioneer work on Bush hatred) has transferred his loathing of the 43rd president intact and still shining to her.

  •  White, working class voters.. (5+ / 0-)

    ..that the traditional media is now telling us are abandoning Obama in droves...

    ..this is the traditional media's thinly veiled way of saying: "See, we told you Rev. Wright will harm Obama.  And the white, working class voters abandoning him is proof!"

    It's just a matter of one contrived narrative proving the point of another contrived narrative.

    Obama will get his share of Democratic blue collar whites once he wins the nomination.

    But that fact does not fit the "Rev. Wright-is destroying-Obama-like-we-told-you-he-would" narrative.

    Every time somebody on TV volunteers to define who is & is not an elitist, the person doing the defining makes a minimum of 1 million dollars a year.

    by wyvern on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:39:37 AM PDT

  •  the complete irony lost to most is (5+ / 0-)

    that the media who is so concerned about the regular little people in this country and their reaction to race or Wright, or the Patriotism issue are brainwashing these very same people to believe those are their first concerns.
    This is the  moral narrative of this election as far as I'm concerned. You have hit the nail right on the head so to speak.  And I for one am ready to march in the streets over this.  I am outraged!!!! and for those who do not know me I am seldom outraged.
    As George Orwell once said, "Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past." If you believe George Orwell or the saying that "history is written by the victors", If you see the parallels of todays society to the suppression of greek philosophers and scholars,  the you must see that we are headed down a path we must rage against.  Goodbye America the Beautiful, we are watching our own demise brought about by ourselves. China  becomes the new major power in the world. This is the outcome of the "dumnification" of American Citizens brought to you by your local sponsors. And it will be blamed on something else.

    "hold on to dreams for when dreams die life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly" e. dickinson

    by kansasgal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:40:22 AM PDT

  •  Hillary is Popular with Republicans (4+ / 0-)

    So is Lieberman.  But the last several primaries are skewed by GOP voters crossing the line.  We all know this.  There are some hard-core supporters for Hillary who want a woman to finally ascend to the presidency; but they haven't been paying attention to the compromises she has made every day since the Iowa caucuses.  Hillary's support is a mile and an inch deep.  The media knows her surge is fueled by Republicans, but is playing along.  Sad.  That is why we need the Democratic leadership to CALL THE GAME.  Obama has won; Hillary has helped and is helping McCain.  Ask Ned Lamont about what it means to be a democratic nominee in a state where fiction prevailed.  Testicular fortitude?  How about craven megalomania???

  •  NOT the first time - Since RayGun fear of flat (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ActivistGuy, Granny Doc

    earthers has been the M.O. for all things DLC, Blue Dog, Bush Dog.

    And, the Dem party backbone ain't a bunch of of fighters, it is a bunch of professionals / managers who know how to study to bump up SAT scores and who know who to better fluff up a college and grad school app essay and who study for the LSAT and the GRE and who write big papers and who have jobs where projects and deadlines are measured in months, quarters, bienniums ...

    NOT minutes and hours for a few bucks an hour.

    Our professional/mangerial class elects the f'ing sell outs and whimps we have 'representing' us as

    ha ha ha 'leaders'

    and these 'leaders' don't fight the fascists, and don't market fighting the fascists, and they cave, and they write big essays of excuses for losing to despicable lying stealing meanies

    and our good old boy flat earthers are listening to racsism and jongoism, NOT graduate school papers about meanies.

    over 40% do NOT vote, and voting participation decreases as income decreases, and I think it is for about the same reason that the flat earthers don't vote Dem

    the Dems don't fight the goddam fascists, so screw the Dems.

    the bottom 3/5 or 4/5 of family income, money income, household income don't need to read "Nickled and Dimed" to know that they're getting knickeled and dimed to death, AND

    that the Dems are a bunch of well paid f'ing losers who ain't do much to fight for the bottom 3/5 or 4/5.

    ;)

    rmm.

    Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

    by seabos84 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:41:55 AM PDT

  •  If you go by education as class predictor... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    Approximately 47% of the U.S. adult population goes not farther than high school.

    Approximately 42% of non-Hispanic whites are in this category. I am assuming this is the main group that the media are referring to when they speak of "whites".

    They comprise roughly 29% of the eligible voting population nationwide.

    The rest of the working class is  roughly 18% of the electorate, mostly blacks and Hispanics.

    The other 53% of the country has had at least some college.

    You can tweak the divisions all day long but the main point is that all by themselves, non-Hispanic white working class folk aren't going to decide the national election by themselves and definitely aren't going to decide the Democratic nomination by themselves.

    ....................Education............
    Race..........Total.....to HS.....post HS
    All...........222,723...103,846...118,877
    NonHispWhite..153,837....64,744....89,093
    HispWhite......27,577....18,861.....8,716
    HispOther.......2,060.....1,335.......725
    Black..........25,991....14,291....11,700
    Asian..........10,221.....3,305.....6,916
    Other...........3,037.....1,310.....1,727

    more money, more votes, more delegates and more class means more electable.

    by cskendrick on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:42:42 AM PDT

  •  I'm not sure this makes sense. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, bubbanomics, Granny Doc

    These are the folks who are suffering the most from the divisive tactics of modern politics, but who do not have the skills, or investment, to see beyond the TV ads, and their own limited world view.

      What does "skill, or investment" refer to?  The "Foxes in the Hen House" boys say that a portion of the population is turned off by the elitism of some leadership in our party.  These guys won for Warner in Virginia because they went after the "Bubba" vote.  They drew a sharp distinction between "Rednecks" and "Bubbas."  Rednecks don't vote so it makes no difference what you do to win their alligence.  Bubbas vote for those who do not look down their nose at them and can make a fairly good argument that Democratic ideas trump Republican idiocy.  

    ...Former candidate for Congress.

    by Steve Love on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:45:48 AM PDT

  •  Literacy is good. Analytical thought is better.NT (4+ / 0-)
  •  This is great (0+ / 0-)

    the media conveniently packages and stereotypes "white working class voters" and then elitist democrats take the sterotype and disparage and denigrate it. Do you want win the fucking election, or just feel superior for having lost it.

    I learned French because I like the language. I'm learning Spanish because I like the people who speak it.

    by Vengeur on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:52:52 AM PDT

  •  pssst (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    (lose the comma after 'working-class'!)...
    ;)

    "It is preoccupation with possession, more than anything else, that prevents men from living freely and nobly." Bertrand Russell

    by jedley on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:55:42 AM PDT

  •  Some votes are more equal than others (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Granny Doc, redtex

    The fact that they keep repeating that stuff without seeming to hear what lies behind it is stunning.  

  •  thank you for this diary... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Granny Doc

    not because i think that these voters do not matter or should not count, but i am utterly dismayed that they are now being described and portrayed as the democratic "base".  i keep hearing how hillary gets the "base" (i.e. the most unreliable democratic voter, not just since reagan, but for a good part of the twentieth century) and how obama gets the fringe (lefties, activists, youth, the anti-war vote, african americans, ya know, the folks i had always thought were the democratic "base").  

    the union vote is a whole different thing, i think.  does anyone have polling data on how the unions are breaking between hillary and obama, specifically broken down by trade?  

  •  Unions served many functions (7+ / 0-)

    One was as an extremely important source of political education for working-class voters whose interests are not and will not be honestly addressed in the media.  Part of the reason for the confusion of these voters is just that, that a corporate media has a vested interest in keeping working class citizens confused as to where their interests lie.  Unions provided such people with a trusted, reliable, accessible source of information that helped them make good choices in a society that otherwise deliberately sought to cause them to make poor ones.  The long-term effect of the decline/suppression of unions in the US has more than hurt working class Americans economically, it has also disempowered them as self-acting citizens.  

  •  Granny, (0+ / 0-)

    what definition of working class are you using?

  •  This is such an obvious truth (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bwintx, Granny Doc, wyvern, Lopez99

    that I shouldn't be shocked that it hasn't been discussed much.  

    NO Democrat will win Indiana in the general election this year, and racist voters (with the "white working class" TV euphemism) will vote Republican.  The Republican Party is BUILT on these voters.  

    So to "demand" that Barack do well among these mental midgets has always been a complete media red herring.  He can't and won't.  But hopefully it won't matter this time.  That is the only hope for America.  

    The real question the media should be harping on is, "Why are white working class Americans STILL so stupid, and so dim wittedly racist, that they won't vote for the best candidate?"

    •  One big irony (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, Granny Doc

      I see every at least as much racism among white middle class and upper class people as among white working class people.  The media has created this myth that only poorer whites are racist for a myriad of purposes, and the political advantages for divide and conquer strategies is not the least of those reasons.

      •  True! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishingwell, ActivistGuy

        You are absolutely right. People here at DKos are actually falling for what the media is saying, and it's not right. I take offense to the notion that just because someone doesn't have a college degree, they must be more closed-minded and racist than those who did pursue higher education. I believe there is just as much, if not more, racism in those who are middle and upper class individuals. I honestly can't understand this media narrative that is continuously being discussed. In my experiences, it makes absolutely no sense as I've found things to be reversed. It's those working the retail jobs, the fast food jobs, the factory jobs, that are more open to those who are a different race.

        •   Amen as my parents did not have college degrees (0+ / 0-)

          but they were wise, analytical, read a great deal, and they were active in the Civil Rights movement. They were middle class only because my father worked for the USPS, a good union job with great benefits. He put both of his kids through college and we graduated, not owing a dime in college loans. He was quite proud of that.

          My parents raised us to be tolerant, compassionate, sensitive, generous and to embrace diversity. We were taught that everyone is equal and not to judge another by the color of his skin, or his religion, or his ethnic background, or his economic status.

          Please Let Primary Season be ending soon. We have McBush ahead. As Noah said: I built this damn ark, get your asses in here or suffer the McRain.

          by wishingwell on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:43:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Bogus Clinton "talking point" repeated by MSM (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    Much of the "analysis" is simply MSM repeating talking points pushed by the campaigns.  Hillary is desperate to come up with some reason that she should get the nomination even though she lost the nominating elections.

    Clinton's talking point on "working class white voters" is bogus because she is refering to Democrats who voted for her in OH and PA. She claims they will not vote for Obama in November.  In fact, EVERY Democrat who voted in the primary will vote for the WINNER of the primaries. Clinton will not be the winner is her problem.

    When it comes to real swing voters who will determine the election, Obama does much better and that is key to winning the border states.

    But this year Mrs. Morgan exemplifies a different breed: the Republican crossing over to vote in the Democratic primary. Not only will she mark her ballot for Senator Barack Obama in the May 6 primary here, but she has also been canvassing for him in the heavily Republican suburbs of Hamilton County, just north of Indianapolis — the first time she has ever actively campaigned for a candidate.

  •  It's Bible vs Constitution (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell

    They forgot in our constitution all people equal and free to believe not the other way around. Thats the white working class media is talking about.

    "The Conservatives definition of torture: Anything that provides death or false information from its captive." Me 2007

    by army193 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:07:54 AM PDT

  •  "Fake news" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Granny Doc

    Mark Penn's firm, Burson-Marsteller, has a reputation for circulating fake news for their clients. I would not be at all surprised if it has created and circulated fake polls designed to stick this meme all over Obama.

  •  ....Who Are These "White, working-class, voters"? (4+ / 0-)

    I AM an IBEW UNION electrician. We are the building trades that build your workplaces, businesses, cell phone towers, homes, etc. We are the backbone of the working class people. There is a great quote in the classic movie The Breakfast club.... "Without lamps there would be no light". The Clintons recognize the important work the building trades do by creating highly skilled workers through apprenticeship and have a long history of defending our interests. The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) alone has 1.2 million members, not including the unionized plumbers, steam fitters, carpenters, Iron workers, etc. We donate 2% of our wages to Political action funds for democratic candidates. My hard earned work and a portion of MY paycheck goes to the DNC, DCCC, along with national and local democratic politicians who support unionization, workers rights and worker safety. THATS who we Are.

  •  Granny, you're that kind of doc (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    I knew I liked you - you are one of the tribe - we psychologists are Poor House Docs (as opposed to Money Docs).  Thanks for helping us all to survive till November (sleep-deprivation notwithstanding)!

  •  We no longer have a free press (5+ / 0-)

    just a bureau of misinformation; made possible by the Clintons and the deregulation of corporate ownership and monopoly of the media.

    These are the same folks who are voting down any real change to education. A dumb proletariot suits their purposes to a T.  This is the group that gave us George W. Bush who is only a sock puppet for the corporate shill.

    So too with McCain and Clinton- run by the same corporate lobby/strategy firm.  They are playing to the poor reasoning skills of this militantly anti-education group.  The strategists have been superb at dividing these voters from any respect for the educated 9% who can effectively assess and support these voters in parsing their own self interest.  

    This 9% is also completely cut out of any voice in the media, and the "dumb" vote is lagging years behind the rest of the culture across every demographic of well-being because of it.

    We no longer have a Democracy, and any hope of redeeming it is hinging on this election.  

  •  MSM & big oil getting people to vote against (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Granny Doc

    their own interests yet again.

    It is sad to go into the rural areas and see how far the fortunes have fallen for the white and non-white residents.

    Isn't it about to for that security alert thing to be on the news every night on orange or red???

  •  Chris Matthews calls them “regular people" (4+ / 0-)

    I don’t even think he realizes how bad this sounds but he’s done it several times. Here’s a couple of examples:

    On April 2 he asked Claire McCaskill:

    "Let me ask you about how he — how’s he connect with regular people? Does he? Or does he only appeal to people who come from the African-American community and from the people who have college or advanced degrees

    So African-Americans and college grads aren’t "regular people" I guess these are the "elites" especially those African-American college grads.

    Again on April 27 from his show’s transcript:

    Hillary's big Pennsylvania win showed that working people and women are still firmly behind her. Those are two groups any Democrat must get in November. So if Hillary loses, where do her troops go? Could Barack get them to back him against John McCain?

    Most people make their choices on the basis of stupid things like
    whether you know how to roll a bowling ball or not or you wear an American
    flag pin." OK. Is this Barack's problem with regular people?

    Mr. JOE KLEIN (Time Columnist): It's part of his problem with regular
    people. The other part of it is, say you're a 45-year-old guy working two
    jobs to put your kids through college. You come home at 11:00 at night, you
    turn on the tube, and there's this guy who's saying, `We are the people--we
    are the ones we've been waiting for.' You just don't relate to that.

    MATTHEWS: Yeah.

    Mr. KLEIN: And I think the way he talks, his coolness, which is
    Kennedy-esque in many ways, Jack Kennedy-esque, and very attractive, isn't so
    attractive to people who are scuffling...

    The way the media is framing this is just disgusting.

    And the whole Joe Klein thing! If we want to elect a president "just like us" then god help us. I don't want a "regular person" for my President.

  •  Hillary, Cookies and Stupid Rednecks (5+ / 0-)

    Remember during the Bill Clinton campaign how Hillary got nailed for talking about stay at home mom's "baking cookies" or whatever it was?  She actually ended up sending a cookie recipe into some women's magazine to show she's really connected to the heartland.

    So it's a little hypocritical to go after Obama for being "out of touch".  (My favorite example of "out of touch" is Bush Sr. when he was at a grocery store marveling over the price scanners at the checkout line...).

    That said, and I admit I haven't read all the comments here, I don't like this business of blaming "stupid rednecks" (my exaggerated phrase).  People who have "red necks" have them because they are out in the sun all day, doing manual labor.  They are farmers, construction workers, utility workers.

    They are being squeezed hard.  Is the fault they don't vote Democratic theirs, or is it possible they don't feel the Democratic party speaks for them?  This is what Obama was (rather badly) trying to say with his "guns and religion" comments.

    What happened to the Democratic party as the party of Labor, for example?  Five Words:  N. A. F. T. A.

    I'm a Democrat, but I'm not happy with the continued rightward shift of our party.  And the elitism...and that's what I think it is...which disparages the VERY VICTIMS of current economic policies does not help build the party at all.  

    These "rednecks" may vote against their own interests, but it's not out of some irrational, electoral masochism.  The right dominates the airwaves and the Dems have been timid in taking them on...always moderating their positions so as not to anger the rightwing propaganda machine.  The issues have been framed in a way that it appears these folks ARE voting in their best interests.  They don't want government "telling them what to do" and that's the only message that's coming through.
    They know they are squeezed for jobs and the only message they hear is that it's the immigrants who have stolen them.  

    I think instead of mocking these people, we should grab our bowling shoes, head out to the alley and learn how to listen.  

    And not just once every four years.  

    (Sorry for the long post...I can't do diaries yet!)

     

  •  Well, I'm white, whether or not I'm "working (4+ / 0-)

    class" is a subject for debate (I do work!) and have been none too pleased by Obama over several different things.

    None of those things, however, have anything to do with the fake media concern over Wright and similar matters -- and all come from the left rather than the right.

    At this stage, though, I think he's the best choice.

    The opposite of war is not peace, it's creation - Jonathan Larson (-6.62, -6.26)

    by AndyS In Colorado on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:52:11 AM PDT

  •  I'm a white working class voter (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Granny Doc, Livvy5

    But I'm in the only demographic that counts. I voted for Obama in the insignificant caucus state of Minnesota, so I'm in the insignificant demographic.

    In the short term low information voters are not going to reject the corporatist media narrative. These are the Americans who, currently constrained by a culture of video games, tabloid journalism, deteriorating education and group think, will not change overnight. OTOH, I believe many of these folks are likely to vote for Obama.  I was recently told by my 20 year old daughter that the "cool" thing to do this election cycle, is to vote for Barack Obama. Bumper stickers and slogans are paramount in reaching the low information voters. In this election cycle, "Hope",  "Change", "Yes We Can",  "Vote For Change", "Change You Can Believe In" etc.. are winning sound bites. While I think these slogans are helpful towards electing the best candidate this time, I certainly think the superficiality of bumper sticker politics is not a good answer to how we build and sustain progressive policies.

    Education, I believe, is the key to strengthening our party and our nation. It's no surprise to me that Obama does well with the college educated folks. IMO, education is the only way to reduce the number of low information voters. I don't know how many times I've heard that the colleges and universities are "bastions of liberal ideology". I can't help but think that we should be sending all our children to college.

  •  Blue-collar voters aren't Dems? What?? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TooLittleSleep, andydoubtless

    This is news to me. Aren't the Republicans supposed to be the ones that appeal to the wealthy, while the Democrats appeal to unions, non-college educated, minorities, etc?

    I believe it's diaries like this that are giving Obama and Obama supporters the "elitist" tag. Because honestly, as an Obama supporter who grew up and still lives in a blue collar, "working-class" family, I can't agree with what this diary is saying. I think the media is completely over exaggerating Obama's lack of support with these voters, especially with the condition the economy is in. But to say that they, we I should say, are automatically "Reagan Democrats" and "low information" is just absurd. There are many who are, but aren't there also many college graduates who couldn't care less about politics? To imply that you must have a degree to be involved in the direction of your country is absurd, and, well, elitist.

    My Grandma is retired from GM, where she worked in a union for decades. My mom does not have a college degree and has worked low income jobs her whole life. But they are both Obama supporters and are NOT Reagan Democrats or low information voters.

  •  Look. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Granny Doc, hulagirl

    The meme that Obama can't connect with "white working-class voters" will only be pushed by the HRC campaign and repeated by the MSM as long as there is a primary where this demographic is significant in size.  So when we finally get to the western states again, like Oregon, where Obama is doing very well, they will push the meme that he somehow can't connect with "white, Birkenstock-wearing voters."

    The common thread--"white".  Its a racist meme.

  •  I'm convinced (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, hulagirl

    the republican party is using military tactics against the democrats. They just replace actual battles with rhetoric. It's a game plan.
        This would fall under the category of psychological warfare. It's called "demoralizing the enemy." They're trying to convince democrats, republicans will play a big role in shaping their thinking in the primary.
        Never happen; but republicans are praying we'll believe that. Makes them all powerful-all knowing-and all seeing. Omniscient in other words. That's how you want the enemy to see you.

    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction." --Blaise Pascal

    by lyvwyr101 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:09:55 AM PDT

  •  Well, you can try to wish it away... (0+ / 0-)

    if you want, but the "scandal" won't go away:

    The MSNBC Idiots are still frothing over Reverend Wright, while wringing their hands over the "effect this "ongoing scandel" will have on Obama's campaign".

    The quote the Republicans will use in the fall does not involve the words of Jeremiah Wright. It is this:

    "I can no more disown him than I can disown my white grandmother."

    If I were Obama's grandmother, I'd be sleeping with one eye open.

  •  Indiana is an absurdly Republican state (3+ / 0-)

    in presidential elections, at least.

    In the last 100 years, it has voted for Democrats exactly 4 times - in 1912, when the Republicans were split betwee TR and Taft; in Roosevelt's two landslide wins in 1932 and 1936; and in Johnson's landslide win in 1964.

    That's it.  The fact that the majority of poorly educated white people in Indiana won't vote for Obama is hardly even vaguely surprising.

    That being said, there's no reason to insult Reagan Democrats as idiots.

  •  Grannydoc, this diary is sickening. (5+ / 0-)

    Grannydoc, I have to say I've agreed with you perhaps ninety percent of the time over the course of this campaign, and there have been times when reading your diaries has brought a smile to my face and a nod of agreement for the principles you've articulated as you've defended Obama, and with him, the highest ideals of the party.

    But this rant

    Aren't these the people whom we refer to as "low-information" voters?  People who historically can't identify their own interest?  People who vote on the basis of beer, and bowling?

    makes my stomach churn.

    I know you're articulating here some principles that got thrown around here a lot in the "bitter voters" controversey, and which are taken as the "what's the matter with Kansas" thesis statement. I've always hated this explanation for low income white voters' abandonment of the Democratic Party, partly because it is condescending to those voters and explains away their electoral decision-making as false-consciousness, and partly because it does exculpate the Democratic Party for its role in alienating these voters.

    In 1992, it was these voters who elevated Bill Clinton to the nomination and then the presidency precisely because he promised a middle-class tax cut. Instead, they saw their taxes go up, promised reinvestment in their communities never appeared, and the neoliberal trade policies (not just NAFTA, but most-favored nation trading status for China) that were sold to them as job-creating engines destroyed the economy of whole swaths of the country. It was not, and has never been, that these voters left the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party left them.

    Moreover, Grannydoc, for your thesis in this diary to be correct and these voters to be mere children easily distracted by shiny objects, then the recent primaries in which these voters were targeted would have to be less issue-driven than others in the Democratic calendar. But this was not the case: Ohio was by and large a contest to see which candidate most opposed neoliberal trade policies, that Hillary Clinton won because she was able to effectively lie doesn't change that.

    Likewise, Grannydoc, you quite simply ignore the fact that on some substantive issues these voters prefer Hillary Clinton to Obama, and do so for rational reasons. They prefer Hillary's plan for universal health care, and these voters for obvious reasons are more inclined to make their choice on the basis of this issue because these people know what it could mean to face the choice between paying their rent and paying a hospital bill.

    But finally, I strongly urge you to reconsider the venom you spew in this diary towards ordinary working people. It is inappropriate either for a progressive or for a fully developed and emotionally aware human being.

    Like you, I support Obama. I look forward to seeing him the nominee. Obviously there are some issues I like him better on than others, but I would gladly trade his imperfect health care policy for the certainty that we will leave Iraq, not start wars with Iran, and have a real national energy policy. Other people might make different choices. But where you and I differ is that I will always grant that these people have made a rational choice, even as I argue for them to make a different one.

    •  Arrrggghhhhh..... (5+ / 0-)

      Andy.  This diary is NOT about voters of any stripe.  It is about the media PORTRAYAL of voters to shape perceptions.

      No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

      by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:23:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the only way this diary is sickening (4+ / 0-)

        or elitist is if you don't bother to read it and the comments.  Its very good conversation and thoughtful and it is about media imagery and how people are painted not some sort of sneer at the working class. It is about quick easy snap judgments made by people who seem to be in charge of narration of events.

      •  "Black people are low-information voters (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Granny Doc, bandersnatch, Vengeur

        who vote based on skin color and the way the media portrays these voters to shape perceptions outrages me."

        That is your diary, except replace "black people" with "working class people" and "skin color" with "beer and bowling" and maybe you'll understand why you're getting these responses.

        •  The diary makes some good points (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Granny Doc

          after the break.  Maybe you felt the need to lead into it with some more controversial statements so that it would catch people's attention, I don't know.  But I think it would be a much better diary if you just removed the parts before the break, which just get people angry and distracted so they ignore your main points (which are important).

    •  Some great points here. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Granny Doc, Livvy5

      How Obama ever let her get away with claiming the bubba vote on the basis of her legendary opposition, shared with George Stephanopoulos, to NAFTA is beyond me.

      And I agree with some of your criticism here. Disdain for these voters is rampant, but we need to keep it competitive with them to win the election. Period. They're going to decide this election and if we welcome Obamacans into the party then why not their "low information" counterparts. We don't have to win them outright but we can't lose them by the same margins that Kerry did.

      Did you see the series over at American Prospect? It's a 4-parter. Just search for that guy's name and it'll return all 4 articles. This long, long, series might be right up your ally. I hope you enjoy the read.

  •  That's the Clinton demographic... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    ...so that's the Clinton and MSM frame for the primary that keeps this race going as long as possible. Low info democrats who come to the table with 8 years of high powered Clinton name recognition and a sour taste from the GOP. The problem is that you presuppose the reader, if they read at all, is somehow educated beyond E! reporting on process and style, even that is a stretch.

  •  Their crimes are many (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    Who has made it the issue? Who continues to use it as a political tactic that no doubt builds the divide--which may be overcome at the national ballot box over other issues but the perception of which continues to erode the possibility of truer community at least in my lifetime.  It is largely because the Clintons say it is so--that they understand and will fight for this group while we "elitists" support Sen. Obama and by implication will not.

  •  I think we somethimes call these voters --- (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Granny Doc

    Republicans.  That's how they will vote, as usual,  in November.

  •  That Last Paragraph (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    This is the first time I have ever seen Republican voters being used to shape the opinion of Democratic voters in a Democratic Primary.

    Is really odd when you consider that it is Hillary that has a significant lead in votes from Democrats only in this primary season - at least according to the exit polls I recall. (And I'll freely admit my recollection could be bad)

    Isn't it Obama who owes his lead - and his almost certain nomination - to crossovers from the Independent & GOP ranks?  Is that a problem?  

    •  Not a problem for me. (0+ / 0-)

      I'll take all the support we can get from any quarter.  That is the way we rebuild the country, the media, and the Democratic Party.

      No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

      by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:32:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yeah, but (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, hulagirl

    A couple of thoughts here.

    First, Obama's appeal on electabilty is that he draws indes and republicans into the party. After four years of George Bush we have an opportunity to expand the base beyond our traditional strengths to get a Democrat elected.

    Second, it's true that a Democratic candidate can't expect to win these voters outright for a variety of reasons. But we can't lose them by the same numbers that Kerry lost them either.

    The Politics of Definition, Part II

    The key weakness of the progressive coalition can be summarized easily: very weak support among white working class voters (defined here as whites without a four-year college degree). These voters, who are overwhelmingly of moderate to low income and, by definition, of modest credentials, should see their aspirations linked tightly to the political fate of the progressive movement. But they don't.

    Data from the last two presidential elections vividly demonstrate this problem and underscore its significance for progressives. In 2000, Al Gore lost white working-class voters by 17 percentage points; in 2004, John Kerry lost them by 23 points, a swing of 6 points against the Democrats. In contrast, Gore lost college-educated whites by 9 points and Kerry lost them by 10 points -- not much change. 1

    Therefore, white working-class voters were responsible for almost all of George W. Bush's increased margin among whites as a whole in the 2004 election (which went from 12 to 17 points). And Bush's increased margin among whites was primarily responsible for his re-election.

    So you're right in that we shouldn't allow these voters to decide our nominee, but keeping it competitive with this demo is a requirement to get an Democrat elected. Clinton won these voters by one point twice. Now he had Perot to siphon off votes from the GOP and Gore actually won his election, so how successful we have to be with them is not clear to me, but we can't just ignore them. Conventional wisdom, groan - I know, is that these voters will decide this election. So let's give the GOP a run for their money with them. Like I said, the Bush taint can do a lot to bring them over to our side or even just motivate them to stay home. Either way, they're a necessary part of governing coalition that needs to be built beyond Nov 4th.

    •  Absolutely correct, but (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mbair, Brooke In Seattle, hulagirl, Livvy5

      it is the Primaries we are deciding right now, and the MSM is doing all in their power to discourage these voters from supporting Obama.

      No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry

      by Granny Doc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:34:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Fair enough (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Granny Doc

        but the way I read the story is that Obama isn't earning these votes the way Hillary Clinton is and we're all pronouncing them as too racist to vote for a black man, really. It's not just that the MSM is discouraging these voters from looking at Obama, but this blog is castigating low information stupid as shit racist white working class voters. Now that is certainly not contained in this diary. I'm not trying to imply at all that you are making that argument, but I've read so much trash talking on this group and they really do represent a huge opportunity for us as a party going forward into the general and beyond.

        Let's face it, if you're a racist then your not voting Obama. Right? He can't sell you on anything just because you're not using your higher brain functions. But Obama won a truckload of these voters in previous contests. From Super Tuesday until OH he had one blowout after another and not on the backs of AA voters or well educated voters alone.

        Now apart from the race memo, I'm even more concerned about the "elitist" memo going out on Obama. Obama has demonstrated a weakness in the last few primaries that he needs to address. It's a tight spot because he's not running that populist style, fighting Dem, sticking up for you routine that these voters might respond to especially today after eight years of Bush. So I don't know what the answer is, but the elitist meme is exactly how Kerry got painted by the media.

        And I just went and re-read the diary and it does seem like you're asking why likely republican voters are deciding our nominee. But Indes and Republicans voting for Obama in our primaries is the single best argument for Obama's electability in a general election. Right? And I can understand you're still in primary mode, but Obama has won the thing in my opinion.

        The real question here for the Obama campaign shouldn't be: how do we win them against McCain? It should be: how to stop McCain from winning them by enough to beat us in the general election?

        Obama has to figure out how to fight the elitist perception because I do think these voters will decide this thing in November.  

  •  amen, but (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    first the amen,

    I have long been annoyed at the violative language used by media.

    This absolutely drives me crazy.  And I guess I also agree that it's a problem if the polls are not separating Democrats from Republicans in this white conservative group.

    But you seem to be saying there is not a, for want of a better term, Reagan Democrat group, and I think there clearly has been such a group, and clearly is today.  

    And your characterization of that group as not quite smart enough to understand they are voting against their own economic interests, which many here share, may over look a simple fact.  IMHO, this group will sometimes vote for social issues over other issues--particularly if the Democratic candidate is too far out of the mold.  And I think that Obama's closeness to Reverend Wright is a major step toward putting him, Obama, outside of an acceptable social framework.  Statements such as the American government invented AIDS to kill black people are so inarguably false, and seemingly unpatriotic, Reagan Democrats will reject Obama, because he supported the rev for so many years.

    So I think this is a huge issue, but a looming one, because it's really the GE where this will hurt.

  •  "Operation Chaos" is in full swing. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Phoenix Woman

    These low-information repub voters are mostly Dittoheads who would sooner kill themselves than vote for Hillary in the general.

    •  Stop giving Rush Limbaugh that much credit (0+ / 0-)

      Seriously he is just a half-deaf drug addict that wants attention.

      If Obama loses the nomination it will be because of a Democratic Party that has grown too old and too feeble to do Anything or fill the shoes of a proper opposition party.

      •  And I think (3+ / 0-)

        you are giving Obama too much "credit" with your "Obama or Else" signature. How much real work have you done for the Democratic Party ~ the one you consider to be too old and feeble?

        "I have very strong feelings about how you lead your life. You always look ahead, you never look back." ~ Ann Richards (Governor of Texas, 1990-94)

        by suswa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:25:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I backed Edwards in the primaries... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Granny Doc, AmericanRiverCanyon

          ...but Edwards, unfortunately, had no base beyond Daily Kos.  It was hard for me to admit this, but it was true.  As Kos has said time and again, former politicians, not even Al Gore, have virtually no political pull -- and Edwards has none outside of the internet.  (He certainly doesn't have it in North Carolina -- he couldn't run for a second term as Senator because he couldn't have broke 50% against the Republican candidate.)

          This was a hard thing for me to accept, because one of the reasons I backed Edwards in the 2008 primaries was because he wasn't a sitting Senator -- an Edwards win wouldn't jeopardize the Democrats' hold on the Senate.    But he just didn't have access to groups that would work for him.

          Obama, on the other hand, has a base that existed long before the first Obama diaries.  And Clinton's legendary political machine is what originally made her the odds-on favorite to win the nomination.

          •  I believe that's the line (0+ / 0-)

            that seems to be out there the last few days ~ that Edwards didn't really have a strong base. Believe it, if you will, but Edwards was the VP pick in '04 and he built quite a "base" across the country to have done that.  Maybe his rise was too fast. But he seems to have caught on quite well. He had and has a base.

            Maybe Obama has a machine ~ one built in a more powerful state. And contrary to some perceptions, the billionare Oprah Winfrey hasn't hurt his "celebrity."

            You may think Edwards' power was mostly on the Internet and you also seem to have bought into the idea that he couldn't have won his Senate seat in '04 so he decided to run for President.

            Go ahead and believe it even though it's just a bunch of Internet blog gossip.

            Seriously, Hillary Clinton now is the Democrat that has the strongest and deepest "base," and based on what you've said, she's the one that should win.

            Go Hillary!

            "I have very strong feelings about how you lead your life. You always look ahead, you never look back." ~ Ann Richards (Governor of Texas, 1990-94)

            by suswa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:12:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I don't work for Parties (0+ / 0-)

          I work for Progressive issues. When the Democratic Party wants to support them, great! Otherwise Harry Reid, Harold Ford, and HRC can go fuck off.

          I made the mistake of investing way too much time in 05 and 06 for the Democratic Party because I thought thy might actually do something to end the war in Iraq. Instead, after they won the Congress, we got a troop surge. It was then my cynicism towards political parties was completely justified.

          For me, the Democratic Party is just a vehicle to get Barack Obama elected. The rest of the Two Party system is an irrelevant joke and will be as long as people like Harry Reid and Joe Lieberman are members of a supposedly progressive party.

          •  And what did you do before (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            left coast newbie

            '05 and '06? You know, being involved in politics shouldn't be a one-issue proposition. It will disillusion you real fast which looks as if that is exactly what has happened to you.

            "I have very strong feelings about how you lead your life. You always look ahead, you never look back." ~ Ann Richards (Governor of Texas, 1990-94)

            by suswa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:14:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I cannot believe some schmucks would (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, RussRocks

    give you flack for simply stating the obvious.  That the MAJORITY of the public are fucking morons and uniformed dimwits who rather watch WWF or American Idol instead of watching the debates or an unbiased analysis of Obama's progressive ideas on race.  I don't have anything to be elitist about, I am poor (well almost), don't really have a high paying job but what I do have that in deed does make me better than these freaking morons is that I know I don't know everything and I want to seek out information that makes more knowledgeable.  Sorry if this sounds elitist but I am pissed that Obama may actually lose because these simpletons don't know any better.

    Call me when you ARE truly ready to be Vanguard of the Party

    by HGM MA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:25:21 PM PDT

    •  I think its called WWE now (n/t) (0+ / 0-)
    •  thank you for articulatiing so wonderfully (0+ / 0-)

      what the elitist blue-blood republicans think of the "common folk" "blue collar" unwashed masses of "consumers". The stupid dumb fuck workers don't know what is good for them. They don't know "free trade" is good for them. They don't know offshoring all manufacturing jobs is good for them. They don't know foreign wars and occupations are good for them .  They don't know big oil companies with outrageous profits are especially  good for them. They don't know uncontrolled illegal immigration is in fact good for them.

      I learned French because I like the language. I'm learning Spanish because I like the people who speak it.

      by Vengeur on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:57:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wife & I in a suburb knocking on doors for Obama (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      annan, Granny Doc

      and ran across a whole neighborhood of the White Working class idiots.
      I got doors slammed in my face for uttering the name Barak Obama.
      One said she could'nt decide whether to vote for Obama or McCain.
      One guy said Hillary really impressed him on O'Reilly Factor then said McCain was not a real conservative, spoken like a real Rush Limbaunian.

      I told my wife, fortunately, most of these idiots will not bother to come out this Tuesday and vote.
      And that's the silver lining to all this.

  •  Reagan Democrats (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    are working class voters who have been deprived of the opportunity to join a union (for the most part) -- many of them can't even conceive of the benefits of union membership.

    Lacking union membership, they have no other avenue for political education other than their televisions and in some cases right-wing-churches.

    The result is people who consistently vote against their own economic interests. And the result of having those people doing that for the past three decades is that their children are now guaranteed to be worse off than the Reagan Democrats were when they were younger.

    The Nation had a good article recently about how manufacturing wages have been dropping, with unions even forced into negotiating two-tier wage scales that mean a 45 year old worker can earn a lot more than a 25 year old will ever be able to. [And of course being in a union is still a lot better for these workers than not...]

    Starting Out Means a Steeper Climb

    Longer-term wage trends have been just as troubling. From 1979 to 2005, entry-level wages for male high school graduates without college degrees slid 19 percent (after inflation); for their female counterparts, they fell 9 percent. For young Americans with college degrees, entry-level wages did rise, although modestly and still far slower than wages for most older workers with college degrees. One study found that men who were in their 30s in 2004 had a median income 12 percent less, after factoring in inflation, than their fathers' generation did when they were in their 30s.

  •  Socrates asks me about the white working-class (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    I'm channeling Thomas Frank here (can you "channel" someone who's still alive?), but I think the Democrats' problem, which the Republicans have ridden to success since Nixon, is they have forgotten who they represent.

    Successful politics, in a democracy, is not as much about what you stand for, but more who you stand with.

    Think about it: who has become the Republican base? What are the economic circumstances of the average, say, Rush Limbaugh listener? Who sends those little checks most faithfully to the various right-wing religious hucksters out there? I'm asking seriously: who are these people?

    The somewhat tragic answer is, "lots of former Democrats".

    Let me set up a little Socratic thingie to show you what I'm talking about...

    Me: But Soc, ol' buddy, you're talking about The Repub's deluded base, here. You know, the people agitating for tax cuts for their boss's boss's boss? What possible use could they be to the Democrats?

    Socrates: I can see I'm outmatched here, and must bow to your superior wisdom in this matter. I just have one or two questions, and I was hoping you could enlighten my ignorance.

    Me: Sure, Soc. Shoot.

    Socrates: Who are these people you call the 'base' of the Republican Party?

    Me: Oh, you know...working stiffs...people in our society who are more or less powerless. People with stagnant wages, maybe just a high school education, who have little or no power in the workplace or the rest of society, and feel some vicarious empowerment when they hear Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity "speaking up for them".

    Socrates: He speaks for them, does he?

    Me: Well, of course. You know, against the dirty, heathen Liberals who want to turn all their wives into hairy-legged, baby-killing lesbians, or something?

    Socrates (aghast): The Liberals want to do that?

    Me: Are you serious?? No, of course not!

    Socrates: Well, that's a relief. I just wonder then: why are they not voting for Democrats? They used to, in huge numbers, as I recall...

    Me: I already told you - The Republicans have the wool pulled over their eyes.

    Socrates: Ah, exactly so: I can see what you mean now. But I still don't understand: why did they stop voting for Democrats? I remember quite a long period when people like that voted overwhelmingly for Democrats, every single election, starting in 1932.

    Me: Well, you know, that was a different time, then...

    Socrates: Really? And how was it different?

    Me: Well, to begin with, there was the Great Depression, which threw everyone out of work. The Republican response was: let charity take care of the indigent, and let The Market right itself. The Democrats had specific, concrete plans to help the people who were hurting...and so the Republicans just got killed in the '32 elections...

    Socrates: Ah, so the Republicans learned their lesson, and sing a different tune, now?

    Me: Of course they...you know, come to think of it, no. They are pretty much saying and doing the same things now as they did then.

    Socrates: Then I'm still confused - why are all those poor farmers and minimum-wage earners and economically hurting people now voting for Republicans?

    Me: I already told you - the Republicans are appealing to their fears and prejudices!

    Socrates: Hmmm...if those folks voted Democratic, do you think the Democrats might do better in elections?

    Me: I'm sure we would, but we don't want those people.

    Socrates: Because...?

    Me: Do I have to tell you again?? The Republicans have them all tied up in fear and prejudice.

    Socrates: I see. Let me ask you: Have you ever experienced feelings of fear, and even prejudice, within yourself?

    Me (thinking): Oh, sure. It's probably a universal human experience to some extent.

    Socrates: Did you enjoy it?

    Me: Well, no, it pretty much...sucked. What's your point?

    Socrates: Do you think the people who now are caught up in the Republicans' fear mongering and pandering to prejudices are enjoying the experience - I mean, really, deeply enjoying it??

    Me: Um, probably not...

    Socrates: Then why do they allow the Republicans to keep doing it?

    Me: You lost me.
    Socrates: As we've established already, not only are they powerless, but their prejudices and fears are only adding to their misery. Isn't that true?

    Me: I've never thought of it that way, but yes, I guess you're right. What the heck is wrong with them?

    Socrates: Do you remember the impassioned speech given at the 2004 Democratic National Convention - the one everyone remembers - where the speaker eloquently called for huge amounts of assistance for struggling family farmers, a living wage for all American workers, card-check legislation to help workers get some power in the workplace, and shooting barbs at the Republican rich, "lolling obscenely in their Opera Boxes"?

    Me: Um...(thinking)...No, actually I don't.

    Socrates: Neither do I. Do you want to help people who are trapped in economic stagnation, and are being exploited with fear and prejudice?

    Me: Well, yeah, that's a large part of the reason I'm a Democrat.

    Socrates: Well, how can you help them?

    Me: Like I said, they are pretty much beyond help...

    Socrates (now genuinely shocked): You don't really believe that, do you?

    Me: Well, what can we do for those people?

    Socrates: "Those people"? Didn't you describe them yourself as, "Working stiffs...people in our society who are more or less powerless. People with stagnant wages, maybe just a high school education, who have little or no power in the workplace or the rest of society?"

    Me: Yes, that's right: the Republican Base.

    Socrates: We also went over how the Democrats gained a large and enduring majority in the past by coming up with specific, concrete plans to help people who were hurting, did we not?

    Me (dawning realization): Uh, yes, I guess so. (Suddenly troubled) But Soc, we can't compromise on the social issues. That's a no-go.

    Socrates: Then...don't.

    Me: Ok, now I'm really lost.

    Socrates: How much does gay marriage or the legal status of abortion increase their misery on a daily basis, in the course of living out their daily existence?

    Me: Actually, on a day-to-day basis? Probably not much. Not much at all, really.

    Socrates: And how much does the fact that they are, in your words, "people in our society who are more or less powerless...with stagnant wages, maybe just a high school education, who have little or no power in the workplace or the rest of society" make their lives harder, on a daily basis?

    Me: I imagine it's a constant, grinding bummer...

    Socrates: So, if you offered a whole list of ways to help them with those concrete, constantly-lived, ever-present miseries - in fact, if you organized your campaign around those issues, and hit the talking points constantly - do you imagine they might just consider voting for your candidates?

    "The World Is Flat" means, "Expect a pay cut before we fire you." -Me

    by mftalbot on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:28:57 PM PDT

  •  I just read about a film that you (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    might be interested in, over on the Obama blog.  One of the commenters - Capital P? - posted links to a video that discusses how our subconscious minds have been manipulated in the 20th century by using Freudian theory.  Apparently the film goes into the way Freudian theory has been used in politics to convince voters to vote against their own interests.

    I thought it might be interesting for you to take a look and see if it ties into the subject of this diary.

    "I have not heard Senator Obama try to make people afraid to vote for Senator Clinton because she's a woman." Michael Moore

    by keeplaughing on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:01:49 PM PDT

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