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Hat tip to tahoebasha2 and Code Breaker, whose under-read diaries here and here inspired me to run their information through the dKos wringer one more time.

I have come to rely on dailyKos for almost all of my news.  In fact, I'm downright smug about it.  When someone offers up an item from the news, I usually say something along the lines of "I know.  What really happened is . . ."  When someone dismisses something I've read here as propaganda or wild speculation, I just sigh at their ignorance.  I have learned that if I read something here which has gone unchallenged or uncorrected, then it is virtually always accurate.  And I usually learn it somewhere between a day and six months before any non-Kossack.  But yesterday the great orange glow was dimmer than it should have been.

Cross-posted at docudharma.

Fortunately, I have recently begun spending more time at docudharma.  It was there that I learned of important developments which I had not seen reported here.  As a result of encouragement there, tahoebasha's diary was cross-posted here on dailyKos, garnering little attention.  In searching for it here, I discovered another important diary on the same issue.  This is my attempt to support those diarists, and decent people everywhere, in calling for attention to these matters. Please read on.

How important was the testimony of three distinguished legal scholars before a subcommittee of the US Congress to the effect that leaders and lawyers at the highest level of our government are guilty of war crimes?  Their straightforward testimony was unequivocal.  Is this an important development for our country, one worthy of our attention?  Remember this?

For me, I can't imagine anything more important.  If we don't get this story before the American people, we all know that no one will.

In addition, the National Lawyers Guild has called for the prosecution and dismissal from their jobs of lawyers for their actions in advising the highest ranking officials in our government.  I repeat this information here, even though it has been diaried, because humanity cries out for our attention on these matters.  I thought I'd never say this in a million years (and I apologize to all those I have silently scorned for saying it), but please recommend this diary.  Please follow this story.  Please insist that our country be a place in which those who are known to be guilty of torture and empowerment of torture are brought to justice.

Thanks to tahoebasha2 for calling to my attention testimony before the House Judiciary Committee-- the Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties, in the diary Yoo: will not enforce laws against torture.  That diary received only 35 comments.  Included with the diary are three of the most galvanizing testimonies before Congress I have ever been privileged to witness.  The clarity, strength, and conviction of the sobering testimony left no space for the usual braying from our elected leaders.  At the very least, please watch those videos, which I have included again here.

Text of Marjorie Cohn's testimony

Text of David Luban's testimony

Text of Phillipe Sands' testimony

Thanks to Code Breaker, I learned that the National Lawyers Guild has released a White Paper explaining why lawyers currently or formerly at the highest level of our government are now subject to criminal prosecution for legal advice given while in conduct of their official duties as part of the United States government.  In this paper, which is quoted extensively in NLG calls for investigation into Bush Admin. & Torture Memos the NLG calls for the prosecution and firing from their jobs of the lawyers involved.  This diary received 10 comments.

It is now known that torture was discussed and approved at the very highest levels of the United States government.  It is known that lawyers working in the government wrote memos which illegally re-define torture, which illegally offer legal justification for torture, and which illegally assure government employees that they will not be prosecuted by the DOJ for committing torture.  There is no reason to quibble about whether torture is the correct word here.  According to widely held and internationally accepted norms, our government planned and executed a program of torture for which it attempted to develop legal cover.

One of the scholars testifying on May 6 was Phillipe Sands.  His article in Vanity Fair, The Green Light, documents the legal development of the justification of torture.  He demonstrates that the discussions occurred at the highest level of government and that the legal justifications for torture preceded the implementation of torture at Guantanamo.  He demonstrates close involvement with torture at Guantanamo from the very highest levels, including physically visiting Guantanamo and issuing direct verbal orders.  Furthermore, he demonstrates that the very procedures used at Guantanamo migrated to other sites, including abu ghraib.  Here's a gentle reminder of abu ghraib.

Do you salute the flag of the United States of America?  If so, you have an obligation to stand up for what the flag should stand for.

Do we want the United States to remain a member in good standing in the community of nations?  This requires accepting and respecting universally accepted codes of conduct.  In both the paper from the NLG and the powerful congressional testimony, the principle of jus cogens is invoked.  Is this a big deal for our country?  Here is what the NLG has to tell us about the legality of what has happened in the United States:

The prohibition against torture is a jus cogens norm.   Jus cogens are defined as norms "accepted and recognized by the international community of states as a whole ... from which no derogation is permitted..."   In international criminal law, the legal duties that arise in connection with crimes designated as violations of jus cogens norms include the duty to prosecute or extradite, the non-applicability of statutes of limitations, the non-applicability of any immunities up to and including those enjoyed by Heads of State, the non-applicability of the defense of "obedience to superior orders" and universal jurisdiction over perpetrators of such crimes. Other jus cogens norms include the prohibitions against slavery, genocide, and wars of aggression.  Jus cogens norms, like customary international law norms, are legally binding. No affirmative executive act may undercut the force of these prohibitions nor may a legislature legalize crimes designated as violating jus cogens norms or immunizing from prosecution those responsible. Jus cogens norms differ from norms which have attained the status of customary international law by dint of their universal and non-derogable character and the fact that jus cogens norms are peremptory, that is, they trump any other inconsistent international law.

While legal scholars often differ as to what specific acts can be defined as being subject to jus cogens norms, it is beyond dispute that the prohibition against torture has attained that status.

Torture is legally equivalent to slavery, genocide, and wars of aggression.  As such, there is an internationally accepted duty to prosecute and/or extradite for the crime of torture.  There is no possibility of immunity even for Heads of State.  There is no defense on the basis of obedience of orders.  There is no statute of limitations.  All of humanity claims the right of jurisdiction, so heinous and unacceptable is the crime of torture to all civilized peoples.  The crime of torture is so universally abhorred that no national law can provide cover against the widely accepted international laws condemning torture.  Are we concerned that our nation is behaving like an international pariah?

I could go on and on.  I want to go on and on.  But I fear I have already taxed my readers' patience.  One matter which some may question is whether the conduct we are discussing constitutes torture.  If torture is understood in the universally and legally accepted senses, there is no room for debate.  Lawyers for the Bush administration created definitions of torture out of whole cloth.  Jus cogens norms are unaffected by such maneuvering.  The 1984 Convention, which is binding to 145 nations, including the United States, defines torture in part as

any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person.

 No mention is made of organ failure.  There is no cynical discussion of how long it must last.

There is an international consensus on what constitutes torture. This consensus is codified in laws which are binding to the United States. Elected leaders at the very highest levels of the United States have broken these laws.  Prosecution of these crimes is legally and morally mandated.

If Kossacks aren't paying attention, few others will be. I am not an effective activist.  I care deeply about these matters, but I am wired for knowledge acquisition and dissemination.  I get confused when it comes to converting thought into action.  I have little sense of which buttons to push or where the power lies.  I'm begging you wonderful, admirable activists to set your sights more firmly on bringing to justice those who would insult our humanity and shame our nation.

Thank you for reading.  I hope I haven't come across as preachy or self-righteous.  To be honest, I am agitated and teary.  These developments are embers of hope.  I am trying to fan them furiously, but I also feel desperate for help.

I would apologize to Code Breaker and tahoebasha2 if I felt it necessary.  I have essentially repeated both their diaries, with added commentary.  But they have made it clear in their diaries and their comments that they will celebrate with me any widening of the discussion on this topic, which transcends petty interests.

Reference--Time line and List of Principles

I know this diary is already long.  I provide the following simply as a reference for anyone who wants to become more familiar with the details of this issue.

Here's a timeline of the willful decision to involve the United States in the crime of torture.  Also a brief summary of the principle actors.  Links to most pertinent documents may be found on the WaPo site here.

September 11, 2002 - Anniversary of 9/11.  al-Qatahni not providing information to interrogators.

December 2001 - Haynes tells CentCom admiral in charge of detainees to "take the gloves off" and ask whatever he wanted in the interrogation of John Walker Lindh.

January 9, 2002 - John Yoo and Robert Delahunty give Haynes prepared opinion that the president is not bound by traditional international-law prohibitions.  Colin Powell and his counsel oppose this.

January 25, 2002 - Gonzales signs memo to president supporting Haynes and Rumsfeld over Powell.

January, 2002 - Feith uses lawyerly double talk to trick General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, into thinking the Geneva Convention will be followed while simultaneously recommending to Rumsfeld and Bush that it offered no protection to the detainees at Guantanamo.

February 7, 2002 - Presidential order gives determination that, legally, none of the detainees at Guantanamo can rely on protection granted by the Geneva Convention, Article 3.

February, 2002 - Dunlavey placed in charge of military interrogations at Guantanamo by Rumsfeld.  In violation of the chain of command, he is told to report directly to Rumsfeld. "I don't care who he is under.  He works for me."

March, 2002 - High-ranking al-Qaeda official captured in Pakistan.  Tenet wants to use aggressive interrogation but worries about criminal prosecution.  Requests guidance.  Yoo-Bybee Memo is response to this request.

June, 2002 - Pressure applied from the highest levels to get information from al-Qatahni.

August 1, 2002 - Yoo-Bybee Memo (with input from Addington) declares that physical torture occurs only when the pain is "equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death" and that mental torture requires "suffering not just at the moment of infliction but . . . lasting psychological harm."

August 8, 2002 - al-Qatahni placed in isolation.

September, 2002 - brainstorming sessions at Guantanamo to discuss new interrogation techniques, facilitated by Diane Beaver and attended by representatives of the D.I.A. and the C.I.A.  Ideas include some taken from the televisions program 24.

Fall, 2002 - FBI and Naval Criminal Investigative Service refuse to be associated with the new techniques.

September 25, 2002 - Gonzales, Addington, Rizzo, and Haynes arrive at Guantanamo, offer suggestions, view at least one interrogation, and deliver the message to do "whatever needed to be done."  Rumsfeld is "directly and regularly involved" during this time.

October 11, 2002 - Phifer Memo requests use of the new techniques, along with a legal opinion authored by Diane Beaver, staff judge advocate at Guantanamo, providing legal justification for use of the enhanced interrogation techniques.  This document was demanded of her, then offered as an indication that the justification came from a lower level lawyer at Guantanamo.  She was operating in a sphere outside her expertise and doing so in the face of marked unresponsiveness from those she approached for help.  This document was a direct result of Beaver insisting on written justification for policies being put in place orally from above.  She expected it to be reviewed and approved at the highest levels.

November 2002 - Haynes Memo to Rumsfeld recommending approval of 15 out of 18 aggressive interrogation techniques.

November 4, 2002 - Miller replaces Dunlavey as commander at Guantanamo.

November 14, 2002 - Alternative N.C.I.S. interrogation plan, using traditional techniques, is rejected.

November 23, 2002 - Aggressive interrogation of Mohammed al-Qahtani, the "20th hijacker," is begun as a result of a vocal command given to Miller, probably by Rumsfeld.  Interrogation continues into January, 2003.

December 2002 - Rumsfeld approves use of aggressive techniques in writing.  With his signature is a handwritten remark seemingly trivializing the issue of torture.  He does not rule out future use of the other 3 techniques, including waterboarding.

December 17, 2002 - Mora of the N.C.I.S. is shocked upon getting an unauthorized look at a copy of the Haynes Memo.

December 20 and January 9, 2003 -  Mora meets with Haynes to express his grave concern.

January 15, 2003 - Mora places his concerns in writing, insisting to Haynes and Dalton of the clear illegality of the actions at Guantanamo.  Two hours later, the interrogations of al-Qatahni cease.  By the end of 54 days of torture, according to an army investigator, al-Qatahni had "black coals for eyes."

August, 2003 - Miller and Beaver visit Guantanamo and encounter near lawlessness.

September 14, 2003 - Sanchez authorizes new interrogation techniques at abu ghraib, including several listed in the Haynes Memo and in violation of the Geneva Convention, which was believed to still be in full force at abu ghraib.

April 2004 - 60 Minutes breaks story of abu ghraib prisoner abuse.

June 22, 2004 - Gonzales and Haynes press conference.  Release of Haynes Memo.  Gonzales and Haynes claim that 1) the administration had moved deliberately and carefully within the law, acting always from good faith interpretations of accepted legal views, 2) the Yoo-Bybee Memo was not a justification for action but rather a theoretical legal exercise, 3) initiative for the enhanced interrogation techniques came from the bottom up in hopes of breaking down al-Qatahni, 4) legal justification for Guantanamo came from relatively low-ranking lawyers at Guantanamo, and 5)events at Guantanamo had no bearing on events at abu ghraib.

August, 2006 - Pentagon's inspector general report concludes unequivocally that techniques had migrated from Guantanamo to abu ghraib.

June 29, 2006 - In Hamdan v. Rumsfeld U.S. Supreme Court holds that Guantanamo detainees are entitled to protection under the Geneva Convention, Article 3.  Justice Anthony Kennedy points out that "violations of Common Article 3 are considered 'war crimes.'"

May 13, 2008 - Charges against al-Qatahni are dropped, possibly because of the interrogation techniques used.

The principle actors
The positions given are contemporaneous with the relevant actions.
Jim Haynes--top Pentagon general counsel.  Essentially, Rumsfeld's counsel.

Alberto Gonzales--White House counsel, essentially George Bush's counsel.

David Addington--Cheney counsel, now chief of staff.

William Haynes--Pentagon counsel, essentially Rumsfeld's counsel.

John Yoo--Justice Department lawyer working for Jay Bybee.

Jay Bybee--Justice Department lawyer at Office of Legal Counsel, Yoo's superior.

Douglas Feith--Undersecretary of defense for policy, no. 3 official at the Pentagon.

General Richard Myers--Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, argued in favor of following Geneva Conventions.

Major General Michael Dunlavey--Commander of Guantanamo during discussion of new interrogation techniques.

Lieutenant Colonel Diane Beaver--staff judge advocate to Dunlavey.  Scapegoat for legal opinion on torture.

John Rizzo--C.I.A. counsel who asked for DOJ guidance on techniques.

Major General Geoffrey Miller--Commander of Guantanamo after Dunlavey and during torture of al-Qatahni.

Alberto Mora--Naval general counsel who insisted on the illegality of the new techniques.

Update  I'm in tears everyone.  Just checked in and people are talking about our country and torture.

Some have discussed the diary title.  It may have been effective, but it was no gimmick. I just started writing and that was how I was feeling.  Not right now, though.  Where would I go for support if not here?  Where would I turn?  Again, thanks to tahoebasha2 and Code Breaker.  I feel guilty for stealing their stuff.

Now I'm going to comb through the comments for the inevitable action items.

Update II, with links:  Thanks to LNK, here are links and action items:

Donate and Also Get News From:
http://www.nlg.org/

http://www.ccrjustice.org/

http://www.brennancenter.org/

A credible article to circulate:
http://www.iht.com/..

I've decided not to change the diary title, because half the comments would not make any sense then. I find it ironic that this information when titled simply and accurately fell off the diary list with little attention.  This diary makes the rec list and half the comments are preaching to me about my diary title, then going on to add that it is my responsibility to bring this stuff to people's attention.  Really, in light of what has been making the rec list, including pro-Obama diaries with titles sounding anti-Obama, it's a little tough to be cool about the extensive discussion, not to mention lecturing, about the diary title.  Perhaps it will help for me to explain that the title is not a blanket condemnation of dKos, it's not even a particularly strong criticism.  It is an expression of emotion--what I was feeling at a moment in time.  And the complaint is a very specific one.  I find the testimony shown in these videos to be paradigm-changing blockbuster stuff such as we have looked for for seven long years.  Given their importance, I was very surprised not to read about them here.  Can we please let that issue go now?

Update III:  CoolOnion provides this link to Phillipe Sands on Bill Moyers.

Update IV:  This hopeful and informative comment from Riyaz Guerra needs to be read to be fully understood, but I include the upshot here:

His response was that he, and other Democrat leaders, did not want to begin impeachment proceedings at this time because it would seem like they would be engaging in partisan politics in a delicate period where Democrats seemed poised to win back the White House.

Therefore, I am guessing that Nadler's question about the statute of limitations at 6:13 in the second video was Nadler verifying that he had the leeway to wait until after the presidential elections are over in order to pursue war crimes investigations against members of the Bush administration.

Update V:  Another link from manonfyre.
An article on Firedoglake from Christy Hardin Smith.

Originally posted to geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:33 AM PDT.

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RadioGirl, audiored, yaddab, Green Karma, flahawkfan, Donise, maxzj05, augustin, sumo, ntcen, Ptown boy in NC, Katie71, JSC ltd, D Wreck, fernan47, reesespcs, northernlights, Lord Sphere, nhDave, myelinate, etara, From a distance, Ella H, Adept2u, Rian Fike, The Honorable Freddie, voila, Tricky, NThenUDie, choosinghope, missmishu, oldoregonlib, AussieJo, NuttyProf, French Imp, yeb, Larsstephens, capasb, fraggle1, haensgen, charlieg, American Blues, ZAP210, bradreiman, sulthernao, BlckKnght, ppl can fly, kydoc, MarthaMyDear, flor de jasmim, TruthandTrust, The Veritable Buddhist, ObamaManiac2008, Liberal Pagan, possodent, Matt Keener, Junah, CarmenT, that veiled gazelle, panAmerican, p gorden lippy, Skellen, Warmwaterpenguin, gallimaufry, Kayess, elijah311, FrigginBoobs, mccarvindh, RenoLMT, seandalai, ZeroVoices, citizenjane, nsfbr, breathe67, Progressive INTP, vixenflem, amk for obama, Aviva032, princss6, AronBlue, CcVenussPromise, Futumpsh, Hoosier Al, Schopenhauer Telescope

    Sorry, I've been up all night working on this and I have to get some sleep now.  I just hope there's no glaring error that I won't be around to hear about for a few hours.  Not that it will likely matter, what with the primary and all.

    Let's try to end torture and prosecute those who deserve it.  It's not about revenge or punishment; it's about insistence on the most basic rules of civilization.

    From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

    by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:36:34 AM PDT

    •  Summary: Bush rammed it down military's throat (46+ / 0-)

      Good people knew it was wrong, but Bush and his war crimes cabal rammed it down the military's throat and pushed out anybody who got in the way.

      Richard Myers - retired.
      Alberto Mora - retired.

      Meanwhile, the corruptible, like Diane Beaver, got promoted.

      We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan

      by CA Libertarian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:07:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  US military leadership is gutless and unpatriotic (13+ / 0-)

        they all play the 'game' while in active duty and a few (very few) develop consciences after they leave the service and speak out against this because they might get cut out of the Pentagon's MSM gravy-train of 'expert analysis commentary'. Just like all the rest of the neocon cabal, they place more value on their personal bank accounts before national interests...

        Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International http://www.aclu.org and http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org Your voice is needed!

        by tnichlsn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:18:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agree there are many like that (32+ / 0-)

          But I also believe there are many others like Eric Shinseki - pushed out by Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz for daring to challenge their estimates of troops required for Iraq - who were good men and women of conscience and duty.

          We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan

          by CA Libertarian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:22:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  well these are military people after all- (5+ / 0-)

            it should be their duty to speak up and keep speaking up until the nation listens.... I would think an oath or two would be broken by them otherwise.

            Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International http://www.aclu.org and http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org Your voice is needed!

            by tnichlsn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:25:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  unfortuately not quite so simple (15+ / 0-)

              The military are trained to follow the chain of command and thus the defense of following superior orders. While not an excuse it explains why there isn't automatic adherence to the law.

              Senator Obama's quest to eliminate the mindset that got us into war is hope that the culture of the military will change so that it will say no to a "National Command Authority" that is in clear violation of the Constitution (for which the military owes its ultimate allegiance) and International law which are codified as to rise to Constitutional mandates when ratified.

              --Country before party--

              by chipoliwog on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:39:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The military legal corps comes out of this (11+ / 0-)

              with more integrity than you might guess.  I'm too exhausted, but there was universal resistance and some very brave protest.  It hasn't attracted much attention.  The details on that count are actually heartening for cynics like me.

              Sorry, too tired for details and links now.

              From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

              by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:55:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  NPR Link re: Military Legal Corps (10+ / 0-)

                NPR’s "Day to Day" discussed the ramifications of judgments on two recent cases on future military prosecutions:  "US drops Charges against ‘20th hijacker’"  

                The legal analyst discussed these developments:  The dropping of charges against the "20th" hijacker", despite a lot of evidence against him, because of the way (torture) that a confession had been extracted from him.  She also mentioned the fact that on Friday a judge ruled that Guantanamo prosecutor Thomas Hartman had:

                "so blurred the roles of prosecution, defense and judges that he could no longer be involved in the case".  

                She went on to point out that these decisions, to her, indicate:  "...that this is almost a rebellion" by individuals in the military justice system against the Bush Administration’s use of coercive interrogation (torture):

                "...The government needed to made a decision immediately after 9/11 about whether it wanted to extract information-whether this was in fact, a "ticking time" bomb situation& the most critical thing was to torture people if they needed to--to get information from them, or if you wanted to highlight the rule of law and due process really worked in the West..."  

                "They made a decision to try to do both and it's becoming clear that you cannot do both.  If you're going to try to get information out of people, you can't turn around and try them using that information.  The most interesting thing I think it signals is:  that this is almost a rebellion that's happening from the ground up-from individual prosecutors, from individual judges, from people who are saying, "look-I'm a military person, I believe that these people are guilty, I believe in these tribunals, but I still can't go forward under these circumstances, this is not real evidence."

                I hope this is the beginning of the opening of the floodgates of justice prevailing.

            •  there's another side to this duty.. (10+ / 0-)

              ..you mention to speak up.

              Civilian control of our military is absolute.  We do not have military coups in our country as a result.  

              Calling for military personnel to cross that line, to challenge their civilian/political leadership is more than political inconvenience as it defies the core of the relationship between those who possess the power every day to overwhelm our nation's government and the civilian administrators who have absolute authority over them.

              There is no principle that can possibly justify such a betrayal of trust between our nation and its powerful military.  

              We, the citizens of the United States acting together with our Congress, are the ones who bear the responsibility to rise up and stop these abuses of power by the executive branch of our government.

              We have no right to abdicate our responsibilities, laying them at the feet of the least powerful among us -- our military.  They have their duties.  We have ours.  

              It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. Alfred Adler

              by Quicksilver2723 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:04:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The photos of Bush with Petraeus are frightening. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tnichlsn, KenBee, Quicksilver2723

                I diaried this a little over a year ago.  Here's a pertinent excerpt:

                A widely seen definition of civilian control of the military paraphrases Samuel P. Huntington's writings in The Soldier and the State: "the proper subordination of a competent, professional military to the ends of policy as determined by civilian authority."

                The Department of State web site sets some parameters.

                Military figures may, of course, participate fully and equally in the political life of their country just like any other citizens - but only as individual voters. Military people must first retire from military service before becoming involved in politics; armed services must remain separate from politics. The military are the neutral servants of the state, and the guardians of society.

                 Difficulties arise in agreeing on the meaning of "involved in politics."

                and

                The Wikipedia entry on this topic is interesting and discusses some of the gray area.  It includes this wisdom from Samuel Adams:

                Even when there is a necessity of the military power, within a land, a wise and prudent people will always have a watchful and jealous eye over it

                From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

                by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:26:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  the coup wasn't by the military it was by the GOP (4+ / 0-)

                They tried impeachment, that didn't work...  but they succeeded a couple years later under Jeb and Kitty Harris in FL and the politically in debited majority on the SCOTUS..

                Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International http://www.aclu.org and http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org Your voice is needed!

                by tnichlsn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:18:00 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  agree... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  tnichlsn, p gorden lippy

                  But if we remember voter apathy and overall disengagement of citizens with our government, I think we come right back around full circle to ourselves.

                  We're trying now to register new voters in preparation for the November election.  But I wonder how many people are thinking about how this sudden increase of new voters is going to crash our voting systems.  We saw the strain on our voting systems here in the primaries in March in Texas.  Low voter turn-out year after year caused the entire system to atrophy.  It probably was difficult to invest in improvements for systems citizens refused to use.

                  So I'm thinking that we're going to be seeing terrific problems in November with so many new voters because no one is considering how this increased demand is going to impact our fragile systems.  

                  Our engagement as citizens has to be steady and consistent, not only in voting, but in continual monitoring of our elected representatives to ensure that they are serving the public interests vs the narrow interests of the corporate lobby.  Just because Obama wins doesn't mean these special interests are going to go away overnight.  They will still have the resources to throw around in Washington long after we've all celebrated our victories and returned our focus to our private lives.

                  When we default on our end, we get the government we deserve every time.

                  Bushies merely exploited our weakness.  They didn't create it.  Further contemplation of the last three or so decades might reveal a different story -- as in, we didn't have a legitimate government to be overthrown and the Bush era is just the rotten consequences of our own neglect.

                  It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. Alfred Adler

                  by Quicksilver2723 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:17:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  there are many military people that have stood up (8+ / 0-)

              and said NO  you can't do it this way  NO you can't use info gained by torture to try these men, LTCDR Swift, the Marine Corp Colonel that turned in the Air Force General for breaking the rules, for the most part many of the "real" officers are saying NO and they are winning but they are paying for it with the end of their careers

              But Bush and Company will not get away with Kangaroo courts as long as there are men like these  use a regular court martial and convict them with the real evidence you have  let's face it  some of them are guilty  Khalid Sheik Mohammed etc  others are not and many have been let go, but because of National Security Acts Bush has kept from being sued by illegaly captured and held and tortured men  there is the one from Germany and the one from canada that I am aware of

              not all military people are evil and not all are using the Nazi defense there are men and women in uniform that really do live the words "Duty, Honor and Country"  I was an Infantry Sergant and it was my honor to serve with people like them.

              •  Thank you for your service and wisdom! (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                geomoo, kyril

                I hope there will be a position for you at West Point someday. We'll need your service when this nightmare finally ends in a few months time.

                Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International http://www.aclu.org and http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org Your voice is needed!

                by tnichlsn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:20:35 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  saw Gen. Abazaid speak recently... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            geomoo, p gorden lippy

            and he gave a very intelligent, nuanced presentation on the complexities at work in the Middle East. After a few minutes, it was very clear why he was "retired" from CentCom--his views were very different from those of BushCo and the neocons. His solutions were things like: talk to Iran, work harder to get a 2 state solution in Israel/Palestine, become energy self-sufficient and quit buying oil.
            While he passed up plenty of opportunities to trash Bush et al directly, his comments were nothing but reproach to our current foreign policy. (His talk was heavily attended by military personnel who gave him a standing ovation at the end.)
            The military guys with good sense, the Bush admin got rid of in the first years because they were "Clinton people" and "too soft."

        •  People work their pay plan (14+ / 0-)

          Generals know how the system works.

          The Republican "top down" theory of Presidential infallibility led to their failures.

          They (the Generals) knew any answer other than agreement would end their careers and the vast majority of them like it that way, the true Patriots, well, they end up elsewhere.

          For any fast track repair of this nation's integrety, a full review of the actions of the current Administration must be begun and completed within the next four years.

          Even with Barack Obama's wise insistence that the nation come together and diminish Party politics for the sake of the nation, we must remember the lessons of Watergate's aftermath when the Democrats just let those guilty of crimes against our system of Government walk away  without penalty, only to be re-infested, via Supreme Court intervention, with their diseases of cronyism, incompetency, dis-respect for the average American, and an overriding belief in the Imperial Presidency (if Republican).

          The nation "owes" itself and the world the truth about what has been done in our name.

          Political pardons are unacceptable Mr Bush,and so is hiding your daddy's secrets behind exectutive orders,free the truth now.Econ 3.50&Soc. 5.79

          by wmc418 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:12:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Where does this put folks (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VA Breeze, kyril, CA Libertarian, armenia

        like Petraeus who is now head of Central Command?

        You can lead a conservative to facts--but you can't make him think.

        by DelicateMonster on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:09:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why do they always find a willing woman? (5+ / 0-)

        It is so annoying to me to see that the women involved in this administration are so willing to jump in and do the dirty work to get their superiors' approval.  For their loyalty, they usually get to take an oversized share of the blame...what a great system these boys have...

      •  Diane Beaver is a scapegoat, and not a stupid one (4+ / 0-)

        She actually comes out fairly well in Phillipe Sands telling, believe it or not.  She demanded a written record, was given the assignment, then came up with what she could.  She expected thorough review, and thorough review would have happened and probably General Myers would have stopped it.  Except the process was short-circuited by Haynes so that Myers never saw the opinion.  Diane Beaver talks of the brainstorming session she facilitated, saying she would look around to see whose dicks were getting hard.  And she reacted forcefully upon seeing the nearly lawless conditions at abu ghraib, before the scandal erupted.  Sadly, she is as guilty as those with much more wanton disregard for the law and more power to do it harm.

        From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

        by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:53:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  thank you so much geomoo (5+ / 0-)

        for giving us this foundation on which we can somehow come to grips with the horror of it all.
        I often think about those in Nazi Germany and then think about how I myself am now like someone from Nazi germany who did nothing. I am proud of my husband, a quiet man who doesn't share his feelings much. When word first started to leak out about the mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo he sent $500 to the ACLU hoping they would do something to stop the torture. We found out later that, back then, they weren't focusing on it and when I complained to our contact he said "well you should have sent it the the Center for Constitutional Law".
        The horror kept going on and on and on and no one went to the White House to tell Bush "no" you cannot do this.
        Where were his father and mother? Where was his wife? Where was the Congress and the courts? So many people with a sense of humanity and the knowledge of the law have been working as best they can to stop this. JAGs and pro bono attorneys and professors of law and Barabara Boxer who tried to confront Condoleezza Rice over the torture and it went on.
        This diary gives me hope that the Congress is finally bringing the right people to testify and expose what this all means and how we end it.
        I keep asking myself "how could this happen?" and it happens when we elect(appoint) someone (or let someone coup d'etat us) who is unfit by temperament to govern. Not only does this man lack the knowledge and temperament to govern but he and his cohorts are so depraved that they've  used the vast resources of our country to wreak terrible havoc and undermine our highest principles.
        I keep coming back to the question of why is an obviously deranged man president? What is it in the American psyche that had too many vote for the swagger, the bullying, the triumphalism, the know-it-al when there was really a know nothing involved?
        George W Bush is ignorant, psychopathic, angry, immature, in a perpetual rage and has been challenging authority since his youth...this rage from within will go on until the Congress puts a stop to him.
        Bush has been on a rampage against authority since his youth.
        Tidbits from what I've read and seen:
        In one biography, the author said he put firecrackers in frogs mouths and lit them.
        When his sister was dying at age 4, he was left behind for long periods of time and he felt rejected. He had not been told that his sister was gravely ill. When she died he said "why didn't you tell me?"
        When he was working on a political campaign in Alabama, he trashed his rental house and his parents refused to pay for the damage.
        When he was arrested for drunk driving his father told him how disappointed he was in him.
        He went mano a mano with his father.
        He has a deeply troubling relationship with his father believing on the one hand that his father is to be revered and on the other hand wanting to better his father. He is deeply messed up and unfit to govern for psychological reasons. That in addition to being so ignorant that he is unfit to govern based on any "metric" except of course that he was the darling of Exxon/Halliburton et al, which syas that we are a very sick country.
        He was considered the black sheep in his family while Jeb was considered the smart one. He succeeded in preempting Jeb on the run for the presidency. His own father cried when he was recently introducing Jeb because of the inference that Jeb would have done the family better had he been the one.
        The terrible irony is that George Shultz former chairman of Bechtel and Stanford prof, championed George W Bush for president to other business leaders. Did Bush's psychopathy appeal to them to start a war to control the oil in Iraq? That psychopathy was quite evident during Bush's years as governor when as the state killing machine roared on  and Bush was heard laughing at the fate of Karla Faye Tucker on death row. Is that psychopathy the toughness that the media talk about when they put a candidate through their torture track debates (see ABC)? Are they looking for the psycopathy to wage endless war?
        George is in a vicious rage, the bully who has the world's arsenal in his grasp, his anger driving those around him who are too weak to say "no" or perhaps cut from the same cloth themselves and he/they will continue until he is stopped by the Congress...perhaps deep down as in a Dostoevsky "Crime and Punishment" state, he harbors such terrible guilt for the death of his sister that he wants desperately to be punished and will do anything to be stopped. There is no knowing except that the Congress must stop him before he attacks Iran.
        The Congress must use jus cogens to stop this rogue regime from causing any more harm.
        Thank you so much geomoo. We all feel so helpless, I think, about this.

        •  Heartfelt comment expressing what many feel. (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          eve, MissyH, kyril, maxzj05, p gorden lippy

          I consider this testimony to be an invitation to empower ourselves.

          I keep coming back to the question of why is an obviously deranged man president?

          IMHO, a lot of the blame goes at the feet of our traditional media.  The internet is providing us an avenue for taking our country back.

          From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

          by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:31:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We have to demand real news in print and TV. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            eve, geomoo

            The internet can do a lot, even more in many respects. But only print and TV get into people's faces every day.

            We must change this system of ideologically homogenious channels and radio stations. Freedom of information cannot mean "freedom to choose your news." Diverse news and analysis must be disseminated to every citizen, rather than enabling millions of viewers to pick the flavor of their news cast and to hell with reality. It's up to us to demand quality public information.

    •  Nice diary (15+ / 0-)

      tipped and recced.
      But this DD admin (UID 7) isn't crazy about the title.
      Remember, one of the few rules over there is that dKos-bashing is a no-no.
      But still, this is a good and important diary.

      Cobalt6 And I'd have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids.

      by kestrel9000 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:10:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for this diary on an important issue (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        boofdah, kestrel9000, kyril

        Old style politics of 50%+1 will NOT get us to where we need to go!!

        by SpringFever on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:31:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  if we can't criticize the best, it isn't... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Canadian Reader, geomoo, kyril, AronBlue

        not that i've read the rules here, but...  

        it seems important to be able to offer critical feedback...

        and i know the title caused ME to read this important info.

        daily kos let's me down almost every day, sometimes in inexcusable ways.  

        that doesn't mean it isn't great... kind of like the u.s. government.

        go far enough "left" or "right" and people are the same...

        by that veiled gazelle on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:25:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Interesting. Is saying that (4+ / 0-)

        Daily Kos let me down, "dkos bashing"?

        Is the position you espouse "Daily Kos, love it or leave it?"  I heard that a lot as a teenager when I protested the Vietnam War: America, Love it or leave it.

        I have never heard (or read) any of that from Markos.  Markos generally has upheld free speech here, with some limitations, but I did not know that criticizing Daily Kos or its focus was among them.  In fact, Markos' libertarian tendencies on speech likely would preclude such a position.

        Let 1000 flowers bloom; let a 1000 schools of thought contend.

        It's okay to criticize Daily Kos or even Markos, and Markos has nover said anything to the contrary to my knowledge.  

        Thus, I think his title is totally appropriate.  His diary is civil and does not persoanlly attack anyone.    .

        "They're going to give their power away when we take their power away." John Edwards

        by TomP on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:50:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  My mistake. You are talking about (7+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alma, meg, kestrel9000, geomoo, kyril, dRefractor, voila

        DD, where they don't bash Daily Kos.  I thought you were talking about Daily Kos, where one can bash Daily Kos.

        "They're going to give their power away when we take their power away." John Edwards

        by TomP on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:51:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Great work Geomoo (6+ / 0-)

      and now its #1 on the list!

    •  Thank you for writing about it. (12+ / 0-)

      You know, instead of complaining about something not being covered on Daily Kos, you could, you know, write a diary about it, and it could have been recommnended and thus it would have been covered.

      But no, you choose to bitch about Daily Kos.  

      It is your fault it wasn't covered here yesterday, which was, by the way, an election day with three important races.

      •  Well (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        boofdah, NC Dem, ClapClapSnap

        that's a little rougher on the diarist than I personally chose to be, but I agree with your general point.......

        Cobalt6 And I'd have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids.

        by kestrel9000 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:15:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  But it was covered here yesterday, (15+ / 0-)

        per the link provided by the diarist:  http://www.dailykos.com/...

        You can write all you want, but you can't make people rec a diary, especially if they're in the mood to find another diary to bash Hillary and West Virginia - fortunately, they had about 350 diaries to do that yesterday.

        I am one of those terrible people who goes around complaining about three sentence "diaries" clogging the recent list and causing good stuff to roll off before it can be seen.  The linked story is a perfect case in point.

        So rather than bitch at the diarist for not covering the story, I'd rather bitch at everyone who is too special to post a comment in Open Threads and drives good stuff off the recent list.

        Now, go spread some peace, love and understanding. Use force if necessary. - Phil N DeBlanc

        by lineatus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:28:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  A fellow terrible person here. (6+ / 0-)

          I try not to be brusque about it, especially with new users, but it's really frustrating to see three-line comments push quality work off the list, especially when you know that the quality diarist has spent hours putting his/her work together.  But the community is what we make it, so I'm always glad to see other users taking diarists to task when they waste space.

          Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

          by pico on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:10:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yes! (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Delaware Dem, Night Train, redtex

        I was waiting for someone to say precisely that.

        The title of the article was essentially misleading, possibly sensationalistic, and completely undescriptive of the diary's content. What the heck gives?

        Daily Kos isn't HuffPost. It's a real blog site, and the vast majority of its content is user-produced. I am glad that this particular user decided, finding the site lacking information on this topic, to add as he felt necessary. I am disappointed that s/he felt it necessary to completely bury the lead like that in order to chastise the community.

        •  This diary is not about torture (5+ / 0-)

          It's about the failure of us as citizens to react to the crimes done in our names.  The title refers to this essential element in this diary.  I respected your initial, milder complaint, but you have overstated your case here.

          The title of the article was essentially misleading

          The title is not misleading because it represents precisely how I felt when I wrote this diary.  These feelings were explained and addressed at the beginning of the diary.  Where are your complaints on such pro-Obama diaries as "I stopped working for Obama today," "Hillary should win".  Jeez.

          completely undescriptive of the diary's content

          I'm tempted to post the first two paragraphs of the diary here.  Using restraint, I'll ask that you re-read them.  Also, look through the diary for other references to my frustration at the lack of attention to this issue.  The title does not reveal the primary content of the diary, but the title and the diary are of a piece.

          When did dKos get such thin skin?  I've seen a lot worse than this go unremarked.

          From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

          by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:15:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The main subject of the article was torture, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            geomoo

            and that's impossible to discern from the title, that's all. I approve of the content, and to some degree of your complaint, but in general, if it's not posted, and you think it should be posted... then post it! And so you did. But waiter, we didn't order the whine. (Haw haw.)

            Where are your complaints on such pro-Obama diaries as "I stopped working for Obama today," "Hillary should win".  Jeez.

            I don't think it's a double standard to fail to address every misleading diary title ever posted. It stands to reason that I would also disapprove of those titles--and I do. They're annoying, and as I said, they bury the lead. Titles serve a purpose other than to grab the attention of a casual reader, and ideally that's to tell them what they're about to read.

            It's not a big deal. It's just that the focus of the article should be the story you thought the community failed to cover, not the fact that you thought they failed to cover it. That's the whole point of sites like DKos.

            •  Well-argued and I understand. (0+ / 0-)

              I feel torn, but given all the discussion, and the rec list in spite of it all, I have decided to keep the original title.  I'm still open to hearing what people think I should do, however.  BTW, the alternate title is Stunning Congressional Testimony: Officials guilty of war crimes.

              From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

              by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:19:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No big deal. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                geomoo

                Wasn't necessarily trying to get you to change it, just chatting. Have a good one.

              •  It would have slid off (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                geomoo

                You didn't do anything wrong. It's pretty incredible that people here are picking ant shit out of pepper when the videos the description have such in depth information on the most important topic discussed in these pages.

                There has been many people on this site over the last few years that have thought BushCo should be convicted of war crimes. Here comes three diaries showing exactly that not it should be done but it can be done and people act like they got suckered by your title.

                I'll bet the people that got tortured in the USA name feel like they got suckered too. I'll bet the American people who care about that stuff feel like they got suckered too by this Admin and were suckered by the Dems who sat silently by without doing or saying anything.

                I feel suckered that those dairies were pushed to the bottom and these feel good diaries about SDs and HRC's problems occupy the top positions. Some of us have to work and can't read every diary as it floats past.

                Meanwhile I see sucker titles in snark diaries go right to the top and stay there with all comments complimentary.

                Seems like there is quite a few flyshit pickers hovering today.

                Hell of a good diary. Hell of a righteous title.

                Support Col Hackworth's watchdog group for the troops with money or a sign

                by Dburn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:13:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thanks. I needed that. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dburn

                  Now that you've said it, I feel more comfortable in my own belief.  I was tempted to look up a few of the fake pro-Obama titles that have caused so much glee recently, but it's just a waste to walk down that road.  Incredible how much attention the diary title got, especially in the face of those powerful videos.

                  Thanks for that well-written, clear, and supportive response.  I'm going to finally relax about that and let it go.

                  From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

                  by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:09:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  For better or for worse... (22+ / 0-)

        ....this community responds to being reproved, as this diary's success suggests.  Call it liberal guilt!

        I find it hard to be overly critical of the diarist when s/he seems to have found a very effective vehicle to get this subject high up on the rec list.

        This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

        by GreenSooner on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:49:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  But this IS a diary about torture. (13+ / 0-)

        I agree the title could've been worded a bit differently (a suggestion: "We Kossacks Need to Focus on Ending Torture, NOW"), but it got our attention, and now it's at the top of the rec list.

        Personally, I'm not thinking about someone bitching about DailyKOS when I read this diary. I'm thinking more about why the hell we aren't arresting the highers-up responsible for Abu Ghraib and the ongoing violations of the Geneva Conventions--and I have the diarist to thank for that.

        •  and actually, now that it is at the top (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          boofdah, geomoo

          of the rec list, the title could be changed and might grab the attention of Kossacks who are interested in the topic, and who might need a break from the you-know-who-isn't-going-to-make-it-to-the-White-House stuff.

          Thanks for the diary, geomoo.  I watched a lot of c-span this week (got laid off recently) but missed this important hearing.  I listened to the videos you posted and I hope c-span airs them again so I can watch the whole thing.

          If this hearing doesn't get the Judiciary Committee off its butt on impeachment, I don't know what will.  I'm mad as hell and I don't want to take it anymore!

          Okay, I guess my outrage fatigue isn't as fatigued as I thought it was.

          Republicans: Your history has earned you a new mantra: "War and waste." ~~ Marta Jorgensen (CA-24 in '08)

          I am an Edwards Democrat!

          by Scubaval on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:29:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  why be so defensive? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        geomoo

        so what if the diariest expresses his/her displeasure?

        it could have been recommnended and thus it would have been covered.

        maybe you skipped the part about garnering little attention. face it, the recommend list IS a reflection of the diaries the community prefers. i am certainly not alone in noticing the presidential campaign takes top priority here. i am grateful for the site. it is where i come to read up on how the race is going. but dkos can't be all things to all people, and sometimes it really disappoints me what floats to the top as the most important issues here because i know this community represents our democracy and face it, we have condoned torture as a country. yes, i know i could try to change that by writing diaries, but i am not much of a writer and many of my ideas and feelings are taboo here. it is simply not in my nature to agitate over topics that are off limits here. so i respect the format, and get much of my red meat elsewhere where i can rant my heart out without fear of being banned.

        i applaud the diary! maybe if it had been titled 'let's talk about torture' you would have passed it up.

      •  But D Dem, not everybody has the mental stamina (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zannie, maxzj05

        ... to keep writing over and over about issues in detail only to get maybe 10 recommends and 5 comments under a diary, and then watch their work get run over by 50 "my grandmother the closet racist voted for Obama" diaries.

        Somebody wrote a really lame duplicate diary yesterday which not only blatantly ripped off a previous one by paraphrase, but just copied and pasted all this crap out of a poster's diary who had written one they disagreed with, who happened to be the Gov. of Washington state, whom they were trashing, and I left a single comment under it which said "already diaried."

        I had checked the comment / diary history and was fairly sure the moron was just a concern troll, based on that, the high UID, and the fact one of the diaries advocated a Ron Paul ticket.

        the idiot then proceeded to make several comments criticising and whining about my 2 word observation, and then quickly the thing jumps to 30 comments.

        I always try to go down the upcoming diary list every day at several intervals and recommend anything decently written that is NOT another duplicate pos cheerleader post for Obama or HRC, and especially if the author has just left one thing out that would make it a good diary, like a link, or a tag, I try to make suggestions to help it.

        But it's worse than using a pick axe on a granite boulder to try to make gravel at this point.

        It can be a great big fat waste of time when there is no positive feedback.  You have the higher ups saying write quality, and shut up, but site is then displaying mostly by volume discount.

    •  Well sheesh (8+ / 0-)

      You just proved your own point. I read about this here first. :)

      ___
      To achieve the impossible, it is precisely the unthinkable that must be thought.
      ~Tom Robbins

      Conlige suspectos semper habitos

      by Marcus Junius Brutus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:15:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Geomoo, please include one of the guys in white (21+ / 0-)

      hats:Filipino-American US Army Maj Gen Antonio M. Taguba.

      Taguba had the courage, fortitude and integrity to study AND criticize abuses at Abu Ghraib. He generated a 1.5 foot high comprehensive report of his findings-- in 2004.

      No stranger to the issue of prisoner abuse, Taguba's the son of Tomas, career S.Sgt who escaped  Japanese Bataan Death March, spent years as a spy against the enemy.

      Moved to Hawai'i at age 11, Antonio was my personal pick for Obama's VP in an earlier comment.

      Aloha   ..  ..  ..

    •  Sleep ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      boofdah, Scubaval

      Get some sleep geonomo.

      But talking of sleep, who was the glorious legislator appearing to fall asleep in the middle of Marjorie Cohn video around minute 4:10?

      Help! I can't tell the Republican trolls apart from the Democratic trolls, anymore!

      by Bronxist on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:34:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  that is Sadler, the subcommittee chairman (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bronxist

        and to me, it looked more like he was reading her statement and nursing a headache, presumably from having to even address this crap!

        Republicans: Your history has earned you a new mantra: "War and waste." ~~ Marta Jorgensen (CA-24 in '08)

        I am an Edwards Democrat!

        by Scubaval on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:34:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks! (0+ / 0-)

          That one image summed up for me the predominant response of our political establishment to all the illegalities of the administration.

          Help! I can't tell the Republican trolls apart from the Democratic trolls, anymore!

          by Bronxist on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:43:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I'm glad to see this on the rec list today... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tahoebasha2, geomoo, Scubaval

      Tahoe's diary from yesterday kept me stirred up most of the day....but didn't make it here for long.  I'm sure it was not the issue that didn't get the attention, just the timing...primaries, who knew!

      If we want peace, why do we give weapons and call it "aid"?

      by gdwtch52 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:04:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Important Issue (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ivan, raines, geomoo, Scubaval, maxzj05

      But in this netroots environment, we are all the reporters.  If a topic is important to you, then report on it, as you did.  Very well too.

      It is not up to the front pagers or other diarists to bring what YOU think is important.  And I agree, this is, indeed, an extremely important issue.  I have read about this very issue just recently.  Of course, I cannot remember which diary I read.  Just commenting about your pointing to the 'failure' of this site.  It can only be what you put into it.  

      That said, your diary is bringing the issue to the fore again.  As it should be.

      Thank you for your effort.  Just highlighting it is ALL our responsibility to bring these issues to our attention, and not the responsibility of the site.

      Just saying IMO.

    •  Thanks for tipping (7+ / 0-)

      me to docudharma. As much as I like dailykos, I would like to see more diaries about things besides Clinton and Obama.

      Donate for Burma! https://secure.avaaz.org/en/burma_cyclone/77.php "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

      by resa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:52:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't like the title of this diary (0+ / 0-)

      Why are you chastising a website for not front paging or rec'ing a diary?  If this is an important issue for you, write about it, maybe in a convincing enough way for other people to want to recommend it.  That's twice in the past week that someone has guilt-tripped their way to the rec list.  There are lot of diaries worthy being recommended that do not receive the honor.  That's the pain of such a popular and eclectic  site!

      This is an issue that should be discussed on this site, I just disapprove of the guilt-tripping way you brought it to our attention.

    •  And DailyKos didn't disappoint today... (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Canadian Reader, leema, MissyH, geomoo, maxzj05

      This, incidentally, is why I keep coming back here.  Generally speaking, if it's important, it eventually shows up on the rec list.  Even if we miss it the first time, somebody will catch it, wave their hands in the air and go, "no really, LOOK at this"

      ---
      Some of my best friends are wrong

      by sterno on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:29:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I also like Docudharma, because they (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Blissing, RUKind

      provide news and issue discussions from a progressive perspective.

      Docudharma is, to me, what Daily Kos was in late 2006.  Daily Kos has gone in a different direction and many people who used to write excellent diaries have simply left.  

      Good diary.

      "They're going to give their power away when we take their power away." John Edwards

      by TomP on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:37:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A trenchant and perspicacious diary (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      geomoo, Scubaval

      that, rightly, has reached a wider audience. However, I would mention that DK readers are also voracious scavengers of other news (blogs, periodicals, MSM palaver, et al), which is why this site is such a repository of everything from the most banal to the extremely arcane. I learned several years ago that one should not take it personally when one's diary receives little, if any, notice. Sometimes the rescuers are there, other times, even a trenchant and perspicacious diary dissolves into obscurity. Eventually, the truth will fall into someone's hands - and he or she will share it with the rest of us.

      Thanks for your efforts.

    •  excellent excellent diary (5+ / 0-)

      thank you so much, and whatever it took to get this diary on the top of the recommend list, i applaud you.

      there is nothing that defines america in the eyes of the world community as much as torture. as my 82 year old mother said last night, she is ashamed to be an american. we should all be. it is so disgusting what we have become as a nation.

      are we really powerless to bring war crimes charges against these people? what will it take?

    •  My great fear (0+ / 0-)

      is that if we do start prosecuting the lawyers and other higher-ups in the administration, that Bush will just pardon them all.  

      My first thought is to wait until Feb 2009 to start prosecutions.  But then I realize that Bush will probably give a blanket pardon to everyone in his administration just before he leaves office.  Just like Ford's advance pardon of Nixon, it would cover any "possible crimes that thay may have committed" in their glorious work on behalf of the War on Terror.

      The only good news is that he can't pardon himself.

      All men are created equal

      by TX Freethinker on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:59:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks to jus cogens, there is no immunity for (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zannie, Nightprowlkitty, tahoebasha2

        torture.  If Bush pardons everyone, that would be clear proof that they are unlikely to be tried for the crimes here.  This easily provides a necessary standard for trying them in another country.  A pardon here would make foreign travel even more dangerous for these criminals, assuming the world has a will to prosecute them.  I'm beginning to think that will exists.

        From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

        by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:27:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Intriguing thought, but I am worried that... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          geomoo

          a) If an external entity prosecutes Americans, there will be a "protect this house!" rallying cry in our country that will drown out any merits in the case - I'm not saying the cry will be justified, I'm just saying the prosecution's effectiveness will be diminished;

          b) If prosecution occurs in this country, I'm afraid that those charged will be well enough down the food chain to not serve as a deterrent to future leaders who will break our laws to suit their personal agenda - e.g., My Lai and Abu Ghraib;

          c) If our elected representatives (post-Nov '08) become involved in investigations and/or prosecutions of this administration's evil doers (as I am sure they will be only too happy to do), the pressing, pent-up, REAL needs of our citizens will, once again, be thrown to the winds of political and media frenzy to NO practical, legislative progress, e.g., steroids in baseball, copyright infringement in the recording industry, ad nauseam).

          My point is not that revenge wouldn't be a delicious recompense, nor that deterrence isn't a seemingly logical motivation, but that our indulgence in these things once again provides a luxurious distraction to those who should be making law.  We need to FIX all of the many things in our country that, collectively, we have broken.  A disastrous foreign policy, still neglected terrorist threats, spiraling economic divides, outrageous health care business practices, a crumbling infrastructure, an antiquated manufacturing base, a fragile environment - need I go on?  

          My question is - how does the backward-looking work of 'punishing the 'bad guys' move us forward on any of the issues that desperately need our attention?

          Just a thought - and lately posted at that.  Excellent, excellent diary, geomoo!

          •  Those are real questions worthy of much discussio (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tahoebasha2

            Here are a few of my reactions:
            If a) turns out to be true, then I think that will only compound the injustice we seek to remedy.  I would actually prefer no prosecutions to what happened to those scapegoats from abu ghraib.

            As to your other concerns, my feeling is that the ills which have been visited on us are not disparate happenings here and there, but rather the result of a decades long movement with consistent membership, consistent goals, and consistent methods applied over time.  Many of the problems we face are a direct result of the actions of people currently in power, some of whom were not brought to justice with Richard Nixon.  If we want to solve our problems, I see no choice but to identify and neutralize those who are bringing so much criminal mischief to our country.  I think it is a close call whether we can pull that off, and I think it would probably even be a bloody battle for control of the soul of America.  But my humble opinion is that if we want to live in a country we can recognize as our own, we must bring these people into the light of day.

            Another, more idealistic view, is that we have no choice under the laws of nations.  If we value the hard won civility among nations, we are legally and morally obligated to challenge such egregious behavior as we have seen.  But that's pretty idealistic for politics.

            From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

            by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:41:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree whole-heartedly (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              geomoo

              [T]he ills which have been visited on us are not disparate happenings here and there, but rather the result of a decades long movement with consistent membership, consistent goals, and consistent methods applied over time.

              I agree with both of your reasons to seek the truth and to prosecute. And yes, our lawmakers' choice of "pragmatism" over the law for decades has created the perception that those who demand it upheld are politically naive "idealists." What bullshit! I'm sick of the argument that the law is just not practical. "It might ruin our chances in the next election." "He's only in office a few more months." "We have better things to do..."

              I'm NOT an idealist. That's why I want the law to trump personal or party interests, damn it!

    •  Great job, geomoo (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zannie, tahoebasha2, geomoo, allep10

      Just great. I think you already know how much work I've already put into this subject. It is very heartening to see others doing the same, because it will take an entire community to struggle successfully against this evil.

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:55:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Tipped and rec'd (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      geomoo

      This is an excellent diary, and this topic really should be brought into the presidential campaign. Imagine the bind this would put McCain in...

    •  Excellent, EXCELLENT diary! (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Blissing, tahoebasha2, MissyH, geomoo, allep10

      And I, for one, agree with the title.  I remember feeling completely deflated when, a few days after my John Ashcroft diary shot to the top of the rec list and went viral around the progressive blogosphere for reasons I still don't fully understand, I posted a diary about Senate Bill 1943 (which would make the "enhanced interrogation" techniques of the Bushies explicitly illegal) and how to support it--which I consider to be a far more important diary than the Ashcroft one--but it went absolutely nowhere.

      Wagging a finger at the guilty parties and making them look foolish is gratifying, yes.  But without real action, it's meaningless.  We need to be disseminating this information all across the Internet.  We need to be contacting legislators and protesting outside the White House.  We need to be taking this issue to court.   Doing nothing is not enough.

      Why are Jews Democrats? Because the last time we followed a bush claiming to speak for God, we got lost in a desert for forty years!

      by Elsinora on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:33:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks, geomoo (6+ / 0-)

      I agree, this is important.  This type of diary used to be the primary avenues of information for me, but since the endless primary campaigns started, they are the only diaries that have received any kind of attention.

      Where my frustration level hits a brick wall is in failing to understand how Congress Critters who are hearing this - the House Judiciary Committee, no less, the very people who have impeachment papers sitting gathering dust (the one on Cheney brought to the floor of the House by Kucinich in the fall of '07, the other against Bush that was started by Chairman John Conyers before the '06 election but never brought to the floor) have failed to act according to the Constitutional mandate to rid us of the very people who have committed war crimes by authorizing torture and illegal aggressive war by impeaching them.

      The Judiciary Committee members cannot plead ignorance of the law.  There is no justification for failing to bring war crimes charges against Bush, Cheney, et al., and impeaching them.  Their failure to impeach makes them accomplices to the war crimes, IMHO.

      (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯)

      by NonnyO on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:19:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I kept wondering what they were thinking, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NonnyO, JG in MD, maxzj05

        listening to that compelling testimony.  My kindest guest is that it was something along the lines of "Damn, I hope this doesn't mean we have to deal with this now."  But I'm with you, I don't see how they can let these matters drift on by.

        From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

        by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:21:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree with what you think they were thinking (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          geomoo

          The times when the cameras panned to the committee members, they sat there stony-faced, not reacting.

          They really don't want to deal with any of the lies and war crimes committed by Dickie and Georgie and their criminal cronies.  They helped usher in the whole mess by first passing the Patriot Acts, then the AUMF, then MCA '06....  All these "investigations" look good on paper, but since they're accomplishing nothing whatsoever other than making a show of 'doing something' just before the election so they have something to talk about on the stump speeches, it's all going to be quietly dropped and there will be no punishment for the lying war criminals or those who are ignoring subpoenas.

          I've lost count of the times I've thought the words "WHAT were they thinking?!?" every time each latest insulting law was passed that we all knew Dickie and Georgie would either ignore or twist to suit their own purposes.  The people closest to them (Congress Critters of BOTH parties!) just didn't seem to understand the gravity of the situation, and that's always irked me.

          We need to get rid of the Congress Critters who so wholeheartedly backed Georgie and Dickie and their criminal cohorts as well as their 'most favored corporations' who have been robbing our treasury with the approval of Congress, not only the warmongers, but the medical, pharmaceutical, and insurance corporations who are robbing Medicare.

          When nothing happened after the '06 elections with Conyers' impeachment papers and Pelosi took impeachment off the table, I knew then that they'd stall for time, beg for money to elect more Democrats (not necessarily better Dems, just more) and nothing would be done to prosecute Georgie and Dickie and their criminal cohorts.  Beginning the primary campaign season two years early has been a distraction and a media circus with infotainment "news" stories about non-issues - but we haven't done much in the last year to bother and pester them about impeaching the worst administration in this nation's history because bloggers for the most part have discussed the same non-issues at length that Lamestream Media spouts.

          History will not judge our Congress Critters kindly - and they deserve every bit of criticism that comes their way.

          (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯)

          by NonnyO on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:28:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It became too painful to lose fight after fight, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NonnyO

            despite being so clearly in the right, factually, constitutionally, and legally. I feel that way, too.  I think that explains the over-the-top hysteria for Obama.  We are desperate for a victory, for a chance to start undoing all the damage.  That's how I feel.  This testimony gave me a feeling of hope that I haven't had in a long time.  If our Congress doesn't act, I think there is a good chance some foreign power will.  I had not felt that before.  If nothing else, there's something powerful about hearing one's view expressed plainly and clearly.

            From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

            by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:04:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, frankly.... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              geomoo

              I'm old, and I only favor candidates regarding policy issues.  I don't get the over the top warm fuzzy hysteria about Obama - nor, for that matter, did I get any war fuzzies about Hillary and Edwards when they were still in the race and the "frontrunners."

              None of them are/were for impeachment.  The only one who was for impeachment and a not-for-profit healthcare plan and getting ALL troops out of Iraq was Kucinich.  He was declared "unelectable" even though everyone agreed with his stated policy goals.

              I'm sure I'll be disappointed in the future when Dems start in on any rhetoric about "let bygones be bygones, we must move forward" - but forward to what?  More of the same with corporations having their fingers in our government?  Leaving troops in Iraq?

              The only hope I have for justice is if foreign countries try Bush, Cheney, et al., for war crimes.  Justice will not come from our elected "leaders."

              (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯)

              by NonnyO on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:54:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •   Hi, geomoo! (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zannie, Blissing, geomoo, RUKind

      I've been out most of the day, so a bit late getting here.

      Your expansion on the subject of torture is excellent.

      Thank you for your support -- very much appreciated on this crucial issue!

      Come visit our activist site and get involved! SoapBox4Truth.org

      by tahoebasha2 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:13:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Whew. What a relief. I've been worrying all day (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Blissing, tahoebasha2, RUKind

        that you would be upset.  I feel as though I stole your diary.  I'm glad you're cool with it.  I'm so glad you brought those hearings to our attention.  I'm glad you're on the case.  I'm glad I got lucky with this diary and people read some about this.  We make a good team, friend.

        From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

        by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:38:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  thx geomoo: those videos restore some faith that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tahoebasha2, geomoo

      the USA may (ONE day) insist upon bringing this Administration's criminals to justice.

      If an international tribunal or extradition team were seeking to arrest one of these shameful Americans, and somehow I as a citizen were between the extradition team and any one of these individuals, i would use all my might to  ensure these traitorous Americans were placed into international custody and tried for War Crimes.

      To me, that would be an acid test of who is a true American: According to my code of ethics, it would be a moral imperative for any American to act similarly: to aid and ensure that these war criminals who, shamefully, have been American citizens, be turned over to international authorities outside of our own country, in order to facilitate justice via War Crimes Court.

      Anyone who would, on the contrary, shield and protect these war criminals from being extradited to an International Court location outside of the United States, no  matter what jobs and roles these American citizens perform, nor under who's command they serve, would, to me, be not only a most pitiful specimen of a true American citizen, but also an accessory to the crimes these Bush criminals are charged with committing.

      _ it's now a fight to the finish>> Dean progressives v. Clinton centrists.

      by rhfactor on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:14:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I salute your clarity. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rhfactor, tahoebasha2

        You mention America, of course, but knowing it's about our citizenship in the human society.  If we love our country, we insist that she be honorable.  These crimes are recognized and defined with unusual clarity by the international community.  These are things that decent people everywhere agree on.  Your commitment is to a moral and legal duty we all share.

        From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

        by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:25:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, I agree, it is an int'l standard of common (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tahoebasha2, geomoo

          human respect and decency.

          I, however, phrased it the way I did, singling out Americans, just to express my counterpoint to what has passed for a "good American" during these past 8 years of criminality, aided and abetted by the Conglomerate Media Cartel. I am drawing a contrast between the O'Reilly/ Ari Fleisher view of a "good American" -- and a standard much different from theirs, which include, btw, wearing a flag pin in a lapel.

          But, naturally, I agree with you, that all citizens of the world have this same moral imperative and natural responsibility to ensure a shared code of decency and justice especially when those in power break the law.

          _ it's now a fight to the finish>> Dean progressives v. Clinton centrists.

          by rhfactor on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:35:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Great diary (9+ / 0-)

    I come back and read in more detail when I have time today

  •  Thanks for sharing -- this community is the sum.. (13+ / 0-)

    of its parts -- ie, it's only as good as we make it.

  •  These people (8+ / 0-)

    should not be allowed to live among decent people.

  •  you let yourself down yesterday (18+ / 0-)

    it's a participatory medium, friend. it is what you make it. the good news is that it appears you've taken some responsibility for this by putting this post together.

    good move.

    "after the Rapture, we get all their shit"

    It's time: the albany project.

    by lipris on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:41:50 AM PDT

    •  Yes indeed, one should be like a bird (5+ / 0-)

      in one's newsgathering endeavors.

      For context, I was at one time reluctant to put up a bird feeder that I received as a Xmas gift because I'm rather flaky and ultimately I knew I'd forget to fill it and I was concerned that the birds who had come to depend on it would starve.

      But, and I actually have no idea if this is true, a bird person told me that birds are smart enough to never get addicted to a single source of food, so I didn't need to worry about that.

      Now, substitute 'news' for 'food'  . .  .

      •  Cool, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        redtex

        I didn't know that birds had that special instinct. Now I'm also tempted to put our bird feeders back.

        thanks!

        Gen Jones, and proud of it!!

        by karma13612 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:57:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I've heard the opposite, I'm afraid. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tahoebasha2

        At least in severe weather, like northeastern winters, I've heard that they will die if you let it run out for long.  But that's just hearsay.

        The rest of your comment is duly registered.

        From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

        by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:24:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Excellent Diary. Recommended (24+ / 0-)

    Of all the war crimes of the bush administration, torture is the one that has most repulsed Americans.  And, thankfully, it's the one where the evidence is most developed and incontrovertible.  Our country, for the sake of its soul, must start prosecuting bush, cheney et al the moment they relinquish power.  The cuffs should be slapped on bush before he reaches the helicopter on the lawn of the White House on Jan. 20, 2009.

    •  He needs to go right now (13+ / 0-)

      Impeachment proceedings should begin today.  Right now.  Cheney and Bush.....interrogated separately, yet forced to share a cell for the rest of their despicable lives.

    •  My bet is (6+ / 0-)

      He's out of the country by January 21, 2009.

      Republicans for Obama - Because some of us want Real Change too!

      by hedgerml on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:01:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Would be nice to have some way to keep (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dolphin777, JG in MD

        track of what is being moved to and built in Paraguay.  I'm assuming there's a nice lake for another wedding or that they'll dig one if not.

        They all said, Sit down. Sit down, you're Baracking the Vote. There have to be some guys and dolls around who recognize the song. me

        by maybeeso in michigan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:11:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  With all that precious H20 in the Guarani Aquifer (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maybeeso in michigan, JG in MD

          beneath Bush's Parguay "spread", a nice lake will be no problemo!!

          Aloha  ..  ..  ..

        •  is this a fact? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maybeeso in michigan, JG in MD

          i have heard this paraguay thing bandied about endlessly but have found no concrete evidence.

          •  Bush has bought something like 100,000 (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Blissing, testvet6778, geomoo, JG in MD

            acres and Rev Moon more than that.   Jenna went there specifically to check on something last year.
            My assumption has been that they know things are going to get bad and are getting a place ready to hide out in.   Used to be that an island would be best, but not any more...

            They all said, Sit down. Sit down, you're Baracking the Vote. There have to be some guys and dolls around who recognize the song. me

            by maybeeso in michigan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:17:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i don't think it is just for hiding out (5+ / 0-)

              i think it is a place they can have a private army, lots of blackwater. a center for global 'security' outside of american law.

            •  this is a rumor... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              maybeeso in michigan, Blissing

              ...started by cuban press, no less, picked up in latin america and by conspiracy theory websites in the u.s.  i have seen no documentation to indicate any sort of purchase.  i'm not saying that it's not true, just that the evidence is not there.  as we should know by now, just because something has been reported in the press does not make it true.

              you would think that there would be some public record of the transaction -- a transfer of title or something -- but i haven't seen it.

              •  unless it isn't! (4+ / 0-)

                i have seen no documentation to indicate any sort of purchase.

                so what? seriously, so what? you do not know this is only a rumor. is our msm god? source

                (many of the links have been scrubbed btw)

                   * The Paraguayan Senate voted last summer to "grant U.S. troops immunity from national and International Criminal Court (ICC) jurisdiction."

                this is around the time the cia started beefing up on insurance from prosecution.

                But there is nothing amusing about an enormous U.S. base less than 120 miles from the Bolivian border, or the explosive growth of U.S.-financed mercenary armies that are doing everything from training the military in Paraguay and Ecuador to calling in air attacks against guerillas in Colombia. Indeed, it is feeling a little like the run up to the ‘60s and ‘70s, when Washington-sponsored military dictatorships dominated most of the continent, and dark armies ruled the night.

                U.S. Special Forces began arriving this past summer at Paraguay's Mariscal Estigarribia air base, a sprawling complex built in 1982 during the reign of dictator Alfredo Stroessner. Argentinean journalists who got a peek at the place say the airfield can handle B-52 bombers and Galaxy C-5 cargo planes. It also has a huge radar system, vast hangers, and can house up to 16,000 troops. The air base is larger than the international airport at the capital city, Asuncion .

                Some 500 special forces arrived July 1 for a three-month counterterrorism training exercise, code named Operation Commando Force 6.

                Paraguayan denials that Mariscal Estigarribia is now a U.S. base have met with considerable skepticism by Brazil and Argentina . There is a disturbing resemblance between U.S. denials about Mariscal Estigarribia, and similar disclaimers made by the Pentagon about Eloy Alfaro airbase in Manta , Ecuador . The United States claimed the Manta base was a "dirt strip" used for weather surveillance. When local journalists revealed its size, however, the United States admitted the base harbored thousands of mercenaries and hundreds of U.S. troops, and Washington had signed a 10-year basing agreement with Ecuador .

                source

                earth to charlie, conspiracies happen! they are part of our reality. did you notice how the government informed us back in 02 they were creating lots of legal loopholes to justify torture? me neither. why the silence? if it was all on board why didn't they flush it in the press? do you remember how the nyt was invited down to the WH prior to election 04 and threatened NOT to disclose the spying story?

                this is a secretive administration. secrets hide people conspiring!

                who thinks up this crap?

                just because it may not occur to you they kept their mouths shut BECAUSE they knew they were breaking the law, does NOT mean it didn't occur to them to cover their collective asses. in case it hasn't occurred to you when cheney promotes private militias in place of our military and trillions of dollars go missing from our federal budget, that somebody may be using that money to create shadow governments that carry out there plans just in case congress doesn't hand them a free pass (like say...iran/contra) IT DOES NOT mean

                the evidence is not there.

                it means it hasn't been thoroughly investigated or discovered. ie, if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, is there evidence it fell? of course there is, like a tree lying on the ground.

                you would think that there would be some public record of the transaction -- a transfer of title or something -- but i haven't seen it.

                oh, my. you mean those upstanding honest people didn't produce one for you? bummerella. of course i would think there would be documentation, and i would also think it is hidden.

                you may be right, but that is not in the least less likely than me being right.

                •  Dig the content. Not wild about the tone. (3+ / 0-)

                  That's some good info and sound reasoning.  Not sure Charlie deserved the strong attitude.

                  From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

                  by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:28:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  my tone (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    maybeeso in michigan, geomoo

                    was in response to the contents of charlie's allegations some of which i found harsh. maybe my meter was off.

                    first off, it was picked up by a lot more than 'conspiracy theory websites in the US', as demonstrated by my links, while not an excellent resources, hardly tin hat central.

                    numero dos.

                    this is a rumor...started by cuban press, no less, picked up in latin america

                    i took offense to the implication Charlie was speaking as if he knew one way or the other (whether the cuban press simply started a rumor) and i snarked accordingly. because i do not know it is only a rumor started by the cuban press. to me, there is a likelihood if the press in  Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil, Argentina, and Paraguay itself reported 500 heavily armed U.S. troops arrived with various planes, choppers and land vehicles at Mariscal Estigarribia air base their may be something going on, as opposed to say, creating a rumor out of whole cloth.

                    i also question why the government in paraguay would be passing laws grant immunity to foreigners from an  International Criminal Court.

                    i tend to talk very plainly and write as i talk so i am sorry if i offended anyone or the general tone of the diary, but when i say 'so what, seriously so what?'. i mean it.

                    we are dealing w/the worst types of criminals here with an amazing amount of power and control over our lives. it frustrates me incredibly we have to be held to a higher standard of 'proof' or be labeled as 'conspiracy theorist' when it has been proven over and again, the people who have committed torture, and all these other war crimes, absolutely conducted conspiracies, in secret, and missing emails and hidden agendas over and over again.

                    frankly, i have no less respect for the msm in this country than i do in cuba. actually i have very little experience w/the cuban press as opposed to all the contortions in the western press.

                    the stark reality is, that by the time we had any solid documentation of torture here in the press, lots of people had been tortured and war crimes were committed against the people of a sovereign nation and a million deaths have stacked up as a result of false information from that torture.

                    there is every indication we may have solid documentation of election fraud someday. certainly we have tons of evidence. how many election could we loose before we have the documentation?

                    my point i guess is that we are dealing w/criminals of the highest order and it is very unfair that we should have to be held to a much higher standard for being sceptical about what is or is not the truth, when those criminals torture people with the flimsiest of evidence of their guilt, much less documentation. so when i hear things like

                    i have seen no documentation to indicate any sort of purchase.

                    i think it is prudent we keep our eyes and ear open. do i put it past these criminals to buy land for the purpose of training, facilitating private armies to carry out 'security' for global oil facilities that entail massive death and destruction? including airstrips? including cooperation from foreign governments to protect them should they be liable in our criminal court system?

                    as you can probably tell i am very passionate about what has happened to my world on these guys watch.

                    are they going to cease and desist should they lose access to the WH?

                    seriously, i put nothing past them.

                    sorry for the rant.

                    •  Thank you for the information about (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      zannie, geomoo

                      conditions in and around Paraguay.  All I have had is speculations.  That's one of the reasons I wish we would have information.

                      I still feel it is a place to hide out when the shit hits the fan for the Bushies.   Purely paranoid.

                      They all said, Sit down. Sit down, you're Baracking the Vote. There have to be some guys and dolls around who recognize the song. me

                      by maybeeso in michigan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:42:24 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I think I was wrong to butt in, but it was worth (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      zannie

                      the response.  You're vibrating on my frequency.  As I find myself saying endlessly, it is human nature to conspire. It is absurd that one has to apologize or qualify if one discerns a pattern suggesting conspiracy.  Worse yet, it leaves us vulnerable to the machinations of those who would manipulate behind the scenes for their own personal gain.  I followed you all the way down the list, and I'm right there.

                      My belief is that these guys aren't incompetent so much as implementing a plan too cynical, selfish, and inhumane to be conceivable by most people.  But their continuing concern with gaining immunity leaves me hopeful that they feel vulnerable.  This testimony also gives me hope that they may yet be held accountable.

                      From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

                      by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:59:11 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Interestingly enough (7+ / 0-)

          Paraguay just elected a new President who is possibly inclined to open up Paraguay for more extraditions.  Bush would be a great example of the countrys new willingness to cooperate on criminal matters.

          Republicans for Obama - Because some of us want Real Change too!

          by hedgerml on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:51:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Thankfully.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JG in MD

        Dog the Bounty Hunter is on the Job...

        Humor aside, if this were tried by the world court there isn't anywhere he could go is there...

    •  A verse seldom heard: (17+ / 0-)

      America! America!
      God mend thine every flaw.
      Confirm thy soul in self control,
      Thy liberty in law.

      They all said, Sit down. Sit down, you're Baracking the Vote. There have to be some guys and dolls around who recognize the song. me

      by maybeeso in michigan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:13:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I heard stirrings (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TN yellow dog, Blissing, armenia, JG in MD

      some time ago, that actions were beginning against these criminals in international legal circles - the Hague?  Part of the story was that because no actions were being initiated in the US, appalled internationals began proceedings.  I understand Rumsfeld found it difficult to travel to Europe because of this.  Haven't heard a peep since - anyone else?

      Should legal actions originate in international courts of law, is there anywhere such criminals can hide?

    •  my dream is that the next President (4+ / 0-)

      Democratic, of course, turns to Bush and Cheney immediately upon being sworn in and says, "You're both under arrest."

      I can dream, can't I?

      Republicans: Your history has earned you a new mantra: "War and waste." ~~ Marta Jorgensen (CA-24 in '08)

      I am an Edwards Democrat!

      by Scubaval on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:45:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I've recommended and tipped, (7+ / 0-)

    but I think a slight change of title might be in order, to focus more on the substance than on DKos... my 2 cents.

    If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -- George Orwell

    by nilocjin on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:45:24 AM PDT

  •  This is the number one issue (29+ / 0-)

    for me regarding my country.  Unless the people responsible for this are brought to serious justice, it will be pushed a little further until we are the kind of country we supposedly fight against.  We are well on our way, and the number of people in the USA who support this is frightening.  I know some of them.  It keeps me up at night.

    Thanks for putting all of this information together....it is beyond valueable.

  •   I wrote twice about the hearing (22+ / 0-)

    and also the Bill Moyer interview of Sands. So to say dkos let you down means I need to work harder on my tags, or you just didn't look hard enough. The last one was rescued btw. Granted the 1st one was just slapped together but it did have more than a paragraph and breaking in the title ; )

    There is much happening around the Torture issue, and we can expect much of it to come to a head fairly soon.
    The number one thing we need to change is the narrative going around the Web that Bush will never be punished. That will be up to us to make sure he doesn't walk away free and clear. As both Marjorie and Sands spoke about, there must be investigation to bring out the facts, and then we go forward from there. If we don't clean our own mess up, others will.

    Molly Ivins reply when asked about Obama, Her answer: "Yes, he should run. He's the only Democrat with any `Elvis' to him."

    by SmileySam on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:50:37 AM PDT

    •  Obama said he would look at Bush crimes (12+ / 0-)

      we must hold BO's feet to the fire to make sure he does.

      I think, therefore I am -- Descartes

      by MantisOahu on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:02:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I will be watching closely (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zannie, MantisOahu, Scubaval

        and agitating daily if Obama gets elected and does not commence on such a cource of action pronto.

        "God is not on the side of the heavy battalions, but of the best shots."- Voltaire

        by armenia on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:44:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  When did he say that? I hadn't heard. n/t (0+ / 0-)
        •  on second read he left wiggle room (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JG in MD

          but he did say if it warranted investigation he would do it.

          here is a link with obama's interview

          http://www.thelangreport.com/...

          I think, therefore I am -- Descartes

          by MantisOahu on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:14:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Here is a quote from Barack (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          geomoo, JG in MD, BenDisraeli

          from a question asked by Attyhood

          "Now, if I found out that there were high officials who knowingly, consciously broke existing laws, engaged in coverups of those crimes with knowledge forefront, then I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law -- and I think that's roughly how I would look at it."

          You can read the whole story and larger quote HERE

          Molly Ivins reply when asked about Obama, Her answer: "Yes, he should run. He's the only Democrat with any `Elvis' to him."

          by SmileySam on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:23:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  IF he found out?!? (0+ / 0-)

            There's the rub, you see.  He hasn't found out yet, which can only mean he hasn't been looking, which can only mean he isn't interested and never will be.  

            It's one thing for Joe and Jane Sixpack not to know about this stuff.  It's a whole different matter for a person on the presumed level of political sophistication of a major-party Presidential candidate not to.  

            Frankly, it's impossible that he doesn't know about it.  He's just choosing not to care.

            •  No, he is doing what any good lawyer or judge (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Blissing, geomoo, JG in MD

              does, not calling someone guilty until after the investigation. He MUST appear as if he is waiting for all the evidence to be in, otherwise he would be accused of a partisan witch hunt. It's hard to be politically correct and please some kossacks at the same time.

              Molly Ivins reply when asked about Obama, Her answer: "Yes, he should run. He's the only Democrat with any `Elvis' to him."

              by SmileySam on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:38:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Yes! Change the narrative! (5+ / 0-)

      I totally agree with this statement.  Bush WILL be punished.  Believing he'll get away with it just makes it easier for that to happen.  We should all wake up every day, look in the mirror, and say, Bush WILL PAY.  Then do at least one thing every day to make that happen-- educating ourselves about international law, writing letters to our reps, demanding the MSM cover this, sharing our knowledge, just like this excellent post has done.  

    •  People took my title as more broad than was meant (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Blissing, SmileySam

      I've read a lot of diaries on torture here.  I missed the rescue list that night, I suppose.  I guess I didn't make it clear that I considered the testimony in the video to be blockbuster, paradigm-changing material.  I was amazed that I had not see it front-paged or at least in a rec'd diary, and I feel it is crucial that this testimony reach a wider audience.  Those videos are the most powerful testimony I have seen in Congress throughout all these dark days.  The testimony is exactly what we've been hungry for.  It seems a huge deal to me, and I was amazed that I didn't find out about them here.

      I've been seeing your good work, SmileySam.  Thanks for it.

      From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

      by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:38:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Gonzales, Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush (21+ / 0-)

    It goes right up the chain.

    Bush ordered up the policies, his attorney general delivered the legal cover, and the national security council implemented the program.

    There's a clear pattern of organized, deliberate executive action.

    Impeach.

    We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan

    by CA Libertarian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:54:39 AM PDT

  •  Don't ask what Daily Kos can do for you but (9+ / 0-)

    rather what can you do for Daily Kos. Great diary. Maybe change the title, though.

    Tipped. Rec'd.

  •  rumsfeld has lawyers named (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlueGenes

    jim AND william haynes?

  •  sometimes on primary days things get buried (9+ / 0-)

    even essentially uncontested primaries like WV.

    but as others have said, thank YOU geomoo for picking up the slack and providing content about this subject of critical general interest.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
    Give to Populista's Obamathon 2.0!

    by TrueBlueMajority on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:59:24 AM PDT

  •  Also largely absent from the corporate media, and (13+ / 0-)

    the blogosphere is a responsible focus on the continuing violence and destruction in Iraq.

    Presently, it seems most of our attention is riveted on the presidential and congressional races, and for good reason. Only by ensuring that the Democratic Party takes control of the White House and expands its majorities in Congress can we hope to put an end to the torture and the seemingly endless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    I don't believe anyone has lost interest in, or lacks passion about the crimes committed by the Bush administration. Rather, there's a feeling of impotence, and the elections are viewed as the best opportunity to right the wrongs and restore decency in our government and its foreign policy.

    "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." JFK - January 20, 1961

    by rontun on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:59:47 AM PDT

  •  Any investigation of the torture of children (13+ / 0-)

    at Abu Gharib? The image of one little girl has been floated around at this site, but my understanding is that there is video of it as well. Did congress see it when the first Abu Gharib pictures were leaked? So many questions of the crimes and the cover up that needs to be answered.

    I think, therefore I am -- Descartes

    by MantisOahu on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:00:58 AM PDT

    •  All I know is this quote from Seymour Hersh: (7+ / 0-)

      Some of the worst things that happened you don't know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib ... The women were passing messages out saying "Please come and kill me, because of what's happened" and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It's going to come out.

      That's from a speech he gave at an ACLU event in 2004.  Like so much else on this subject, it seems to have vanished as completely as a pebble dropped down a well.  

  •  There's too much (4+ / 0-)

    I share your sentiment, but my observation is that there's just far too much to be outraged about.

    It's almost as if there should be an entire separate site for the purpose - DailyOutrage or something.

    I've noticed that we do perhaps accept this sort of thing too easily lately, but the sheer volume of this sort of thing goes a long way towards possibly explaining why.

    "When Siddhartha has a goal, he does nothing. He thinks, he waits, he fasts. He goes through life like a stone through water." - H. Hesse, Siddhartha

    by thenekkidtruth on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:01:27 AM PDT

  •  Excellent diary, but (9+ / 0-)

    you might want to think twice about your first few sentences. They almost caused me to avoid reading the rest of the diary.

    No one should rely on DailyKos for almost all their news. Only a very small percentage of news is even discussed here. In fact, if a news story has nothing to do with electoral politics in the United States, then it's unlikely to be discussed here at all.

    DailyKos is a political discussion blog, not a news source. It employs no reporters. Most of the "news" to be found here consists of (1) links to stories in  the MSM, and (2) commentary by posters who happened to witness various news and political events in person. The rest of DailyKos is (let's face it) just a bunch of opinionated yammering by people sitting at their computers.

    Having said all that, thanks for posting this diary. It's not much of a read but it contains a great deal of important information and it's organized in an easy-to-comprehend way. I've added it to my hotlist as a reference source.

    This torture thing is an issue that must be pounded and pounded and pounded. The sickening thing is that many Americans don't need to be convinced that the U.S. does indeed torture. They already know their government has violated the laws and standards - they simply have no problem with it.

    Education, or the lack of it, is an issue. We have too many people in this country who neither understand why torture is illegal, nor even want to understand.

    "Lies return." - African proverb

    by Night Train on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:06:49 AM PDT

    •  Night Train, (11+ / 0-)

      Don't know how long your lurked before you registered but things were very different around here a year ago.

      A lot more news, analysis and discussion. Unfortunately, Kos refused to implement changes in the recommended diary listings so we've been stuck with horseraces on the front page.

      Many of us wanted to see separate areas within the site where people could track specific news stories of interests to core groups of posters.

      That didn't happen, so to accomplish the same goals many of my favorite posters moved to other sites.

      Unfortunately, I think we lost a lot of community and credibility in the process. I don't know if we'll get it back after the election or if it was an opportunity lost.

      But what you're seeing here now is not what was or could have been.

      "Let us not look back to the past with anger, nor towards the future with fear, but look around with awareness." James Thurber

      by annan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:12:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "My Uncle Voted For Obama !!!" Diaries... (4+ / 0-)

        ....or "nephew" or "grandma" are the current plague. I am a strong Obama supporter but all these political junk food diaries have lowered the level of discussion and info sharing.

        Well I've been from Tucson to Tucumcari... Tehachapi to Tonopah--Lowell George

        by frandor55 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:36:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          frandor55, Blissing

          Although, to be fair, it has been amazing to see the range of voters who have been attracted to Obama's campaign.

          Having seen my Republican sister and brother-in-law embrace Obama - we haven't been able to talk politics in 15+ years - has really fired me up to work on this campaign in ways that I have never done before. So, I understand where the diarists are coming from.

          Maybe we need a "Gramma voted for Obama" Open Thread once a day to bottle all that enthusiasm!

          But obviously I agree with your sentiment. I miss the more substantive diaries, too.

          "Let us not look back to the past with anger, nor towards the future with fear, but look around with awareness." James Thurber

          by annan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:45:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  To answer your question, annan, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        annan

        I've been lurking here since 2003.

        "Lies return." - African proverb

        by Night Train on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:42:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Fifteen Minutes (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Canadian Reader, geomoo, JG in MD

      Fifteen minutes (if I can stop at that) spent here on DKos is still the best use of my limited time for news browsing activity.  May it remain so.

      Bush hijacked the US with lies about 9/11 and crashed it into Iraq, killing over 500,000 human beings.

      by Zydekos on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:14:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Under previously normal circumstances here, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Blissing, Night Train

      that testimony would have been dissected and cheered non-stop.  It would have springboarded a flood of informative comments expanding the discussion and enlightening beyond my ability to assimilate.  I'm regretting the loss, because I don't enjoy surfing and skimming.  But I am looking elsewhere now, for better or for worse.  But that's all pretty beside the point.  Frustrating how much discussion the title has received given how things have been around here.  It must have seemed more critical and chiding than I meant.  It was simply an expression of an emotion.

      From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

      by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:45:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for bringing this back. I'm (6+ / 0-)

    sorry I missed the diary before.  Torture is part and parcel of the whole degradation to which our poor country has been subjected for the last 8 years.

    I hate the idea of torture and want my country back as a country that does not and will not do that.  If it can ever get back to anywhere near that high a moral status.

    I wonder---is this all part of a very sophisticated plan to turn our lovely and formerly widely respected and admired country into a fascist state or banana republic type monarchy?  Conspiracy theory?  Yes.   Lots of supporting evidence.

    They all said, Sit down. Sit down, you're Baracking the Vote. There have to be some guys and dolls around who recognize the song. me

    by maybeeso in michigan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:08:40 AM PDT

  •  we need you (9+ / 0-)

    as much as you need us. I'm one person here who can't spend all day on the site and only gets to read the top half of each diary on the rec list through RSS feeds except for nights and weekends and early morning hours, so I only get half of the story most of the time. I do tend to rely on this site for news, but only get that news if I'm able to read all the diaries and if a member here actually posts the news. So thanks for posting this diary today. Tipped and rec'd. This IS important and I thank you again for stepping up and giving us the details.

    "Never, never, NEVER give up!" --Winston Churchill

    by rioduran on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:10:03 AM PDT

  •  Whatever happened to rest of Abu Ghraib pics? (7+ / 0-)

    Not that I want to see them but weren't they supposed to made public? How does democracy work when the gov't and media team up to distort the facts and present rosey scenerios to the majority of the population?

    This country needs a hefty shot of self realization. The days of arrogance, hubris and super power are ticking away and what will be left will be embarrassment and shame. This will be along the lines of Nazi Germany if the collective we of the US doesn't stand up and say no more. Not in my name, not in my country.

    Thanks for the diary. Although I've seen several stories scroll away that were important, in most cases however, there is someone like you that won't let that happen. Good work.

  •  That picture of them in the orange jumpsuits (13+ / 0-)

    on their knees is actually torture. This was in the documentary Taxi to the Dark Side.

    The masks and thick gloves and earmuffs while being moved is part of a comprehensive isolation sensory deprivation program which is a continuation of what is being done to them on a greater scale in their cells.

    This mental torture has been proven in university studies to cause mental damage and psychosis as soon as after only 24 hours. Which is why the CIA adopted it. Using it on the same person for weeks, months or even years though goes way beyond torture and enters the realm of pure sadism and cruelty along the lines of Joseph Mengele where the human subjects are not even regarded as humans.

    That Austrian guy who was caught holding his daughter in a cellar for 20 years and abusing her physically is regarded rightly as a heinous criminal, yet he is just a little league amateur compared to these people.

    •  The point being that (8+ / 0-)

      that one photo alone which appears so innocuous is proof enough to bring charges according to the Geneva Conventions.

      •  Thank you for that. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Blissing, The Australian, JG in MD

        The more obvious photos are very upsetting to me.  I have intentionally seen as few as possible, though I still stand as a witness for the victims.  I dislike coming upon them without warning.  That's why I included the two photos I did.  To informed, sensitive people, those photos are enough to condemn both Guantanamo and agu ghraib.

        From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

        by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:48:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And Bagram in Afghanistan (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Blissing, geomoo, JG in MD

          Where it all started and Captain Wood was transferred from after her 'successes' to pass these successful 'skills' onto the people at Abu Ghraib.

          Which raises another point. They must be accumulating vast amounts of information regarding specific techniques and results through experimentation etc. To what purpose? Which takes me back to the Joseph Mengele comparison in regards to suchlike inhumane experimentation on prisoners who are denied all legal rights.

          •  It is upsetting to think of torture as science (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Blissing, The Australian, JG in MD

            Have your read The Shock Doctrine, by Naomi Klein?  Her initial chapter concerns experiments done at McGill in the 1950's which were basically torture.  The professor had a dim-witted notion of completely erasing the personality in order then to write a healthy one on the resulting "clean slate."  Ms Klein traces the use by the CIA of many of the techniques developed there, including sensory deprivation, electric shock, and random mealtimes.  I had the same reaction to that "research."  It's like the atomic bomb.  How will we ever put it back in the bottle?

            Torture is famously ineffective at gathering useful information.  It is, however, highly effective in inducing a sense of fear and paralysis in the wider populace.

            From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

            by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:42:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  A little note on your opening sentence: (2+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    LNK, Govinda
    Hidden by:
    BlueInARedState

    If you get your news exclusively or nearly exclusively from Daily Kos, you should not be proud or certainly smug. You are failing in your basic civic duty to stay informed about current events and issues of importance to our democracy and you are doing deliberately in much the same way Fox news viewers do.

    For God's sake, if you're going to get your news solely from liberal blogs, at least cast the net across a few appreciably different ones.



    Hillary Clinton: Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory!

    by Vincenzo Giambatista on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:20:09 AM PDT

    •  It's what I choose to do, and no apologies. (0+ / 0-)

      There sure are a lot of preachy people, full of advice on this.

      Any thoughts on the fact that leaders in our country are war criminals?

      From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

      by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:51:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Great diary - thanks for putting it together. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    musicalhair, PsychoSavannah, geomoo

    And what powerful testimony.  We need to hold our legislators accountable--no statute of limitations, no wiggle room in allowing for the legalization of torture.  

    The message is clear.  Someone mentioned previously that these people should not be allowed to live among decent people.  I'm not sure I want their corrupting force to be near "indecent" people.

    Solitary confinement for each.

  •  Our President and Vice-President, (9+ / 0-)

    and the President's Secretaries of State, Defense, and Justice, and his National Security Advisor were all complicit in crimes against humanity.  

    Doesn't that just sum up the last seven years?

  •  Thanks for this excellent compendium (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti, PsychoSavannah, LNK, pico, MissyH, geomoo

    and for bringing the issue back to the fore. Your research and timeline, and your elegant commentary, are worthy of keeping for future reference--good work, geomoo!

  •  Action link and Talking Points? (5+ / 0-)

    Donate and Also Get News From:
    http://www.nlg.org/

    http://www.ccrjustice.org/

    http://www.brennancenter.org/

    A credible article to circulate:
    http://www.iht.com/...

    Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

    by LNK on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:26:35 AM PDT

    •  thanks for the links, LNK... very important (0+ / 0-)

      to this topic.  Will scrutinize them closely and bookmark.

      Republicans: Your history has earned you a new mantra: "War and waste." ~~ Marta Jorgensen (CA-24 in '08)

      I am an Edwards Democrat!

      by Scubaval on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:54:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Excellent work, geomoo. (6+ / 0-)

    This story can't get enough eyes. Good it's finally on the rec list. Consider h/t'ing and linking Code Breaker and tahoebasha2 right at the top though, or more visibly.

    Seul l'incrédule a droit au miracle. - Elias Canetti Road2DC

    by srkp23 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:26:56 AM PDT

  •  This is our method to Impeachment. (10+ / 0-)

    We can sit around and hope till the cows come home, but now is the time to create a stink. Write your congressmen, and lets put some pressure on people. If we wait for what might be, or not, the Bush legacy lives on to bite us in the ass another day, or another decade from now. Lets end it.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:29:32 AM PDT

  •  Rising from Lurkersville . . . (15+ / 0-)

    I went to Docudharma a couple of months ago.  More news, less crazy.  I miss D Kos.  Was "regular" here since summer '04.

    By the way, good Wednesday night from Osaka.

    ____________________________________________________

    "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

    by BenGoshi on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:31:32 AM PDT

  •  I had about given up. (8+ / 0-)

    That's one reason why I haven't been reading diaries such as this one.  I have been thinking that our only hope is a new President and that's why I've put all my energy into election diaries.

    However, if the (and that's a big IF) the lawyers can be held accountable, I think it will lead to bigger heads to roll.

    As I said, I had about given up.  I am still skeptical that this will lead to anything other than heads on a television, but thanks.  It has been my dream that Bush and the rest will suffer.  I can't even joke about it, or call Bush and Cheney and all the others funny names.  To me, it's too serious.  But....I just don't put alot of stock into anything happening.

    White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 6/07)

    by nolalily on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:33:27 AM PDT

    •  I had a similar reaction. (4+ / 0-)

      I (and I think a lot of people) have been horrified by the US's use of torture, but I have started to feel helpless.  Electing a good man president is something I can be directly involved with, but I don't know how to end torture other than that.  I think this is a major problem in our society, citizens don't know how to reign in their government, even on something as sickening as torture.  Having said that, I think your diary helped shake me out of my helpless stupor and got me thinking again about what a single citizen can do.

      Feminists for Obama!

      by possodent on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:42:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm sorry (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gary Norton, Blissing, LNK, Owllwoman

    But I wonder if this story is just not as sexy for progressives as the personal issues of race and class that seem to be emerging out of the primary. Too bad, this something that everyone can unite around.

    •  I don't think so at all, (6+ / 0-)

      and this comment, probably unintentionally, verges on Kos-bashing. "Progressive"-bashing anyway.

      For one thing, we had a primary going on, and Kos is first and foremost a political news site.

      Second, torture is a difficult issue to write about, as there is so much information to wrangle; the diarist deserves snaps for working all night to get it together. In addition, it is emotionally painful to read and write about. Some may feel emotionally unable to dwell on it with the concentration necessary to prepare a diary. Some may feel they do not need any more details, becasue they already fully understand the heinousness of what has occurred and is occurring. Depite all this, the subject it has been diaried multiple times; this may be only the most comprehensive, at least recently.  

      Third, diaries make or fail to make or fall off  the very short Rec list all the time for random reasons, in part by luck, timing and whatnot, so no judgment can be passed on Kossacks at large, based only upon the Rec list.  

      Finally, this torture stuff is a key reason WHY everybody is concentrating so hard on every step leading up to the election. We have to get these SOBs out of office, no mistakes or slip-ups, because THESE are the stakes.

      Some us us retire every night with this heavy knowledge in the back of our minds and rise every morning with it aching somewhere under our heart.

      •  I couldn't have said this any better (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rlochow, geomoo

        thanks, Clio.  I am one of those thinking about this daily and talking to people in the meat world daily about it.  I bring it up in nearly every conversation I have ~~ somehow I find a way to bring the chitchat around to what's important in our country today, and this is one of the topmost topics on my mind.  I hate it that we even have to discuss it.

        thanks again.

        Republicans: Your history has earned you a new mantra: "War and waste." ~~ Marta Jorgensen (CA-24 in '08)

        I am an Edwards Democrat!

        by Scubaval on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:41:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  True, true, true, and true. Terrific comment. (0+ / 0-)

        it is emotionally painful to read and write about. Some may feel emotionally unable to dwell on it with the concentration necessary to prepare a diary. Some may feel they do not need any more details, becasue they already fully understand the heinousness of what has occurred and is occurring.

        This is a particularly insidious problem with respect to the torture issue.  The good, sensitive people who best understand why it is so horrible, and who most would want to fight it, find it very difficult to engage the topic.  Another aspect of it is that decent people have a hard time imagining how bad things are.

        I think of our young people thrown unprepared into a hell of torture, and I feel obligated to follow them some small part of the way there.

        From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

        by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:46:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  IMO the most critical function of DKos (0+ / 0-)

      is the ability to take action on something.  What is the action item in something like this?  Call your rep?  Write an LOE?  Sign yet another petition?  I've done all that and this issue goes nowhere for the simple fact that the people in charge of oversight are either a)In bed with the culprits (Supreme Court, Rep legislators); or b) has absolutely no stomach for prosecution (Dem leg) in the face of insurmountable odds (at least 50 Senators who will block this thing).  In fact, it's not even about convincing a few legislators - you'd basically need to leverage the whole lot of them.  Heck the Blue Dogs aren't even sure they disagree with it (publicly) and certainly don't have it within them to impeach or prosecute.

      So where does that leave us?  The most crucial action item is getting Barack Obama elected.  People may sneer at the apparently frivolous diaries that heap praise on the candidate or simply share their feelings of excitement over their newfound hope, but at least in those circumstances there is a clear and consequential action item: VOLUNTEER, DONATE, VOTE!

      I haven't been around this site all that long, but to the value of this community was immediately apparent: political action.  Information exchange is a critical means of this, but is not the ends in and of itself.

      Mr. Speaker, our Nation depends on immigrants' labor, and I hope we can create an immigration system as dependable as they are - Luis Gutierrez

      by Alfonso Nevarez on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:36:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm sure this admin is working on its priorities (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zannie, Blissing

    now, which are pardons, group pardons, before and after the fact pardons.
    good ol' Nancy cleaned the table for them.

  •  The problem is that evidence discovery... (4+ / 0-)

    and investigations are stonewalled by bushco without impeachment on the table.
    We need to see impeachment back on the table, and vigorously prosecuted; or the evidence will go to Paraguay with bushco, and America's longest national nightmare will continue.

    St. Ronnie was an asshole.

    by manwithnoname on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:37:34 AM PDT

  •  American conscience. Great diary. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annan, PsychoSavannah, geomoo

    I'm glad people are speaking out, finally.

    Most people are afraid to speak about these things because of retaliation from the powers-that-be.

    Never underestimate the vindictiveness of those in power and those who seek power.

    It's not just the lower-classes, like Lynde English of Abu Ghraid fame.  

    The middle-class, much reviled, much maligned, is society's salvation.  We need a strong middle-class, that believes in the cause and effect universe, where behavior matters.

    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." -Aristotle

    by Aidos on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:39:49 AM PDT

  •  Futility (11+ / 0-)

    You know, I think most everyone here at Dkos shares your frustration and horror about this issue.  I get the sense (and I feel it myself) that there seems to be no remedy for these despicable violations of the law and basic humanity.  Is the DOJ going to do anything?  Is congress going to do anything?  The answers seem to be a resounding "no" and "hell no".  The courts allow the administration to hide behind "state secrets" provisions, blocking legal avenues.  That's all three branches of govt.  I would love a realistic pathway to actual arrests and prosecutions but I have to admit that I've given up hope on that happening...at least not until we have a new administration and a better congress.  That's a sad place for me to be and I know others are also deep down in that sense of futility.  I think that many of us feel that the best and only hope is to bust our asses to throw out the GOP and their enablers and then push hard for prosecutions.  I do care about this issue.  I swear I do.  I just don't believe there's any meaningful thing I can do about it right now (other than donate, volunteer and vote in Nov).  Thanks for keeping this in front of our eyes though.  It's immensely important.

    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Ghandi

    by Triscula on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:41:31 AM PDT

    •  disempowered (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Triscula, geomoo

      I am in a state of disempowerment on corruption issues like this.  It's not even very interesting to me anymore; these stories just reinforces my own state of disempowerment and don't seem to reveal anything new to me.

      I want stories on what is being done about it.

      Unsustainable is unsustainable, which means it will eventually end.

      by Must Have Been The Roses on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:30:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rlochow, geomoo

        I think you're expressing what a lot of people are feeling.  We know it's bad, probably much more bad than we can imagine.  But we're at a loss as to what to do about it.  There have been so many news stories lately about the corruption, both legal and moral, that it's almost overwhelming.  And where to turn for recourse?  The gatekeepers of those avenues are corrupted too, or just too cowardly or cynical to act.  It seems that our only hope is change of government.  So I think that's where people are putting their efforts.

        "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Ghandi

        by Triscula on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:28:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yah (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CharlieHipHop, geomoo

          But I have this deep feeling of pessimism that says "they" want us to put our energy into hope for a future election; while this time gives "them" dig themselves in deeper.  The whole Clinton meme is reinforcing within me how difficult it is going to be to pry these entrenched machines from power.  

          Unsustainable is unsustainable, which means it will eventually end.

          by Must Have Been The Roses on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:57:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  never surrender! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            geomoo

            you have not lost until you've lost hope.  

            what if the american revolutionaries had said, "gosh, those british are just so much more powerful than we are, and only 10 percent of our own countrymen support us.  let's just give it up?"

            what if the abolitionists or the suffragettes or the early labor movement had lost hope?  

            don't lose hope. it's the greatest weapon we have.  the bad guys want you to lose it.

  •  Thank you, this is VERY important. (13+ / 0-)

    Your article is well written.  I did not know about
    jus cogens.  I am strangely--not sure the right word here--uplifted? by the existence of jus cogens.  The orwellian twillight zone that has swirled around the reality of torture committed by Americans has knocked me off center.  I had always understood that certain things were wrong.  Slavery, human trafficking, genocide, and torture: these were things that I always understood to be ultimate crimes.  Then I saw pundits and lawmakers throwing around legal parsings and making the "for the good of the public" arguments.  And I thought, "Surely this is not an argument?  Surely everyone understands this to be immoral and illegal?"  It is good to know that my instincts were right, and that by the broad standards of the rest of humanity, this was torture and torture is abhorrent.

    "YOPP!" --Horton Hears a Who

    by Reepicheep on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:44:17 AM PDT

  •  Another well documented crime against (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    musicalhair, Blissing, hulagirl

    American people. Which alas will be ignored by our beloved, spineless Dems. Hearings with no follow-up action is useless.

    But at least the people are finding out how corrupt our govt really is.

    Anyone for a quick game of Chess.

    by CitizenOfEarth on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:47:27 AM PDT

    •  No they're not. Not most of 'em. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Blissing

      They're not paying enough attention.  

      I retain enough idealism to believe that if they were paying attention, there'd be enough outrage to create some movement on this.  Those few people who do see what's going on, like us, feel too discouraged to do anything.  

  •  I've quit trying to make my agenda as important (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    snafubar, VClib, Scubaval, Govinda, Jampacked

    to others as they are to me. To me, 10s of thousands of people have died in the last week from nature wreaking havoc in densely populated parts of the globe. Sudan is ready to get evil again on Darfur and Chad, and you are pissed off we aren't focused as much as you are about Bush/Cheney? I agree, they should be impeached, even prosecuted in international court, but how many days, how many times do I have to obsess about Bush and his cohorts? I'm worried about the 10s of thousands who perished in Burma and China, and the millions who were left homeless and devastated. Is that a sin to you?

    You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

    by tazz on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:48:23 AM PDT

    •  Only one problem, Tazz, that hasn't come around (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Blissing, Scubaval

      again...yet.

      Every day we don't stand up to Bush/Cheney, we show the world our implied consent for what they have done and continue to do in our name.

      The backlash for that is just starting; and let's not forget that Bin Laden's original motivation for 9/11 was that we had defiled the sacred ground of Saudi Arabia with U.S. troops -

      - it was Bush Cheney that made sure that not only have we given Bin Laden credence by the second invasion/war, but the idea that we are building permanent bases there and have designs on Iran before Bush leaves -

      WE HAVE TO STOP HIM NOW BEFORE BUSH CAN MAKE IT EVEN WORSE.

      let me put it this way - how much attention do you think the humanitarian crises you mention will get if we are at war in Afghanistan, Iraq AND Iran?

      Is that not reason enough to impeach and convict?

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:08:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I just do not obsess as much over one issue (0+ / 0-)

        as others do. Let's put it this way. There's nothing I as an individual can do to change the direction of the country, or politics or government. The only thing I have control over is my own life and possibly the lives around me. I can blame the president for all the evil in the world, however, constantly blaming him will not affect my individual reality. I can read for the umptieth time how the Bush administration has done this, how Cheney has done that, and I can scream at the top of my lungs they should be impeached. That's all I can do. If I allow it do be an obsession, then it will effect my life, and to me, Bush, nor any other politician is that important that I allow them to negatively impact my psyche. That's something I control, not them. It is with the power I have to categorize issues that there are days or even months when my attention is elsewhere. Right now, learning and paying attention to the crisis in Asia is where my attention is at. I've spent enough time dealing with the Bush/Cheney administration issues for one lifetime.

        You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

        by tazz on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:52:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ironic (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zannie, snafubar

          you have no power to change your own government, but you think you can have some sort of effect on people walloped by mother nature?

          you just keep living your dreamy little life, paying attention to whatever cnn is dishing out that day. real heroes will keep trying to prevent the world from crashing in on you in ways you can't even fathom.

        •  I don't want this to be a personal attack on you (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zannie, geomoo

          but your philosophy is troublesome.

          The reason I am indignant that Bush/Cheney have the temerity to "promote" representative democracy wherever they see fit so that people can be "free" falls flat on it's face when the people here who have that freedom don't use it.

          The Constitution allows for impeachment of the President and his minions not because they wanted there to be a political "gotcha" tool lying around to influence the next election (as was done with Clinton).

          The opportunity for impeachment was there so that if the Executive branch did take the country off into a direction that was obviously wrong and dangerous, those people who he governs can use their "freedom" and "liberty" to stop him.

          I am suggesting to you that if you want the focus to be switched from bogus wars and massive military spending to something more humane like disaster relief, humanitarian crises, and food shortages, then the best way to accomplish your goal is to remove the two principle men who are now diverting so much of our resources to weapons, not food.

          The war in Iraq was bogus, it's not accomplishing the goals that are being advertized, and if we go into Iran under the same bullshit auspices that we were led into Iraq, I guaratee you there will not be one red penny left for a single grain of rice in any humanitarian effort the world will face.

          This is why impeachment first, then when you get someone in office who actually sees worldwide humanitarian and ecological and environmental needs as more important than just cheap gasoline for Americans and the salvation of one man's misguided "Doctrine", the world will be better off.

          In short, impeaching Bush Cheney is not a distraction to your efforts, my friend, it is a shortcut to their expedient focus.

          If you say you don't have time to remove the obstacles from your path, where will you find the time to build a new path around them?

          George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

          by snafubar on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:54:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  At 73, I have earned the right to determine (0+ / 0-)

            what obstacles I remove from my path.

            You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

            by tazz on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:07:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  and the rest of us "young" people have earned q (0+ / 0-)

              the right to disagree. Sorry I wasted your time.

              It is nice to come here and get chewed out at age 40 by people who consider me young; it helps keep me sane when all the 20-somethings call me stodgy and curmudgeonly.

              George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

              by snafubar on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:03:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Besides, there's an important distinction. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        snafubar

        The storm and the earthquake were acts of God.  

        The torture is a crime committed by human beings -- and more than that, by people who purport to represent you and me.  

        Big, big difference in my mind.  

  •  There will be pardons... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    geomoo

    I had this on good authority a couple of years ago.

    If America gets conquered by another nation, then they get to take our leaders to The Hague......NOT what we want, I don't think.

    I think the best starting point is to give us back Habeas Corpus first....And yes, hold hearings and if necessary impeach Cheney and Bush.

    Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

    by LNK on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:50:49 AM PDT

  •  Thank you, Geomoo (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PsychoSavannah, Pete Rock

    McCain: "I think that clearly my fortunes have a lot to do with what's happening in Iraq" ... Buh-bye!

    by RevJoe on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:52:02 AM PDT

  •  The Democrats have been in charge of Congress... (5+ / 0-)

    ...for over a year, and so far they've done nothing about this issue but hold a few hearings.

    Though I'd love to be proven wrong, I don't expect President Obama to do anything more about it once he takes office (nor would President Clinton have done anything about it).

    So the question then is: if the Democrats, in Congress or the White House, continue to refuse to do anything substantive about the Bush administration's war crimes, what will you do?

    This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

    by GreenSooner on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:52:33 AM PDT

    •  Personally... (0+ / 0-)

      I'll leave the country and renounce my citizenship at the first opportunity. It's already in motion.

    •  what will YOU do? (0+ / 0-)

      Quit bitching and run for Congress yourself. They can use more bodies.

      "They're telling us something we don't understand"
      General Charles de Gaulle, Mai '68

      by subtropolis on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:02:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Unfortunately, I have to agree (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rlochow, VClib

      I don't expect Clinton to challenge the status quo - and if Obama had wanted to do anything about any of this he certainly had openings to do so by now and he has done nothing to indicate that once in office, he will become the progressive powerhouse so many people are expecting him to be. He talks a good game, but actions speak louder than words. Maybe he will be more open to progressive aims and POV but I really doubt that he will push very far out of the box, especially in light of the economic catastrophe awaits him and that is really just now in it's initial throes.
      I suspect he will throw us a crumb or two, at first, but not much more than that. And, he may keep the SCOTUS from becoming too medieval on us, but given his tendency towards "concensus" I wouldn't even count on that. In the end, it will still be up to the netroots to keep pushing and pushing and pushing.

      "God is not on the side of the heavy battalions, but of the best shots."- Voltaire

      by armenia on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:18:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  EXTREMELY Important...Thank you and ... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Canadian Reader, musicalhair, rlochow

    ...let's hope our Congress carries out it's responsbilities in continuing these hearings and hope that it moves into the real realm of investigation.  I call for prosecution for all levels from Bush down to every member of that security team who met in the White House to discuss torture, including Colin Powel (this revelation was I think the most acute to me--I respected him so much).  For those of us who knew when the Abu Gharaib story broke that torture had been sanctioned at the highest levels, this is vindication however minor the satisfaction is in relation to what a great number of people have suffered at the hands of Americans authorized by Americans.  I would rather it have been what our "government" was telling us, a handful of folks, an Anomaly!  I ramble, but heres to hoping that Congress ACTS and now and heres to great Americans (and British) speaking out for decency and the rule of law!

    Thanks geomoo, I don't know how I missed the other diary yesterday, but thank you for staying up all night to put this together.  Your efforts are So appreciated and so are you.

  •  Exceptional Diary (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cotterperson, Clio2, armenia

    This is very important work. Thank you.

    Whenever one of my "reasonable" Republican friends suggests that they "like" McCain, I just want to scream "DON'T YOU KNOW THAT HE SUPPORTS THE UNBELIEVABLY UN-AMERICAN BUSH REGIME AND ALL THE HEINOUS THINGS THEY HAVE DONE IN OUR NAMES?".

    No, of course they don't. They have been reading diaries like this on Daily Kos for the past 4 years. They have no CLUE.

    Since they have always voted Republican and even though they might be embarrassed by Bush, McCain seems reasonable to their way of thinking.

    How in the world do we bring them up to speed? I have concluded that we cannot. It would be too painful and mortifying for them to admit their complicity by voting Republican all these years.

    The only hope is to appeal to their higher angels and ask them to vote for Obama. Get it done by bringing them into our camp and be done with it.

    If we can do that, all this stuff will come out in time and the reasonable ones among them will be suitably mortified.

    "Let us not look back to the past with anger, nor towards the future with fear, but look around with awareness." James Thurber

    by annan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:59:49 AM PDT

    •  'Reasonable' republicans (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Canadian Reader, cotterperson

      (whatever that means) that I know are enthusiastic about Obama. Some of them can't put their finger on why. Many just don't like McCain at all. Some are fiscal conservatives. Some are 'family values' voters. Almost all are 2x Bush voters.

      I think the special congressional election in MS yesterday solidified that the political sea change is real.

      There is still hard work to do betwixt now and November. But I am more hopeful than I have been in a long, long time.

      IIRC, Obama said publically that he would direct his AG to investigate and prosecute administration officials who authorized torture.

      "Cynicism is a sorry wisdom." - Barack Obama

      by BlueGenes on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:34:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "Reasonable" Republicans (0+ / 0-)

        I put "reasonable" in quotes because those are the ones who are open to reasonable discussion and pay a reasonable amount of attention to the news. They aren't the rabid Republicans of the far right who look at Democrats as Satan incarnate.

        Most that I know are leaning Obama (or even voted from him in the primary) but are holding out the possibility of voting for McCain in the GE.

        My point being, if they were paying just a bit more attention to the backstories behind the news, they would never vote for McCain because it would be Bush's third term and they could not support that.

        "Let us not look back to the past with anger, nor towards the future with fear, but look around with awareness." James Thurber

        by annan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:49:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I don't visit here as often anymore. (7+ / 0-)

    I got sick and tired of the emotional commentary regarding Obama. It seemed that there was a lack of regard for facts, a lack of respect for differing opinions and a very naive attitude about Obama. (who has my support...but who I see as a politician not a saint. One I imagine will look just as dirty as Hillary does to some Obamites...once the republicans get done with him).  

    These stories are the most important. Our constitution, our way of life has been altered by this pres. We must find a way to hold him and his crew accountable or we are watching the fall of the Roman Empire. We will cease to be the example of prosperity and good will.

    There is no story more important...and the only thing I want to hear from Obama is that he will prosecute this lawless bunch and THAT will be the most important step for returning our country to it's people.

    The greatest gift you can contribute to the goal of world peace is to heal.

    by wavpeac on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:08:01 AM PDT

  •  Extraordinary work geomoo... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annrose, zannie, snafubar, MichiganGirl, geomoo

    thank you for this my friend.  Nothing is more important than this.  We must bring the war criminals to justice.

    "The truth shall set you free - but first it'll piss you off." Gloria Steinem

    Iraq Moratorium

    by One Pissed Off Liberal on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:08:22 AM PDT

    •  How Do We "Immediately" Shut Down (4+ / 0-)

      this military industrial complex that has run wild for so many years - particularly under G.W. Bush and Cheney?

      OPOL / Geomoo:  I am so worried that we wont even get to November elections.  I sometimes think the Dems should somehow ensure W and his criminal possee they wont be prosecuted in exchange for the United States to indeed have our elections...

      Why would Bush and friends not invoke war on Iran, and find a way to declare marshall law -- if they think they will be prosecuted?

      This shit scares me.  But I totally concur Yoo needs to get out of Berekely, and something needs to be done eventually about the US war crimes..

      Great post!!

      •  BushCo certainly has set-up (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zannie, One Pissed Off Liberal

        the infastructure for a martial law situation that would take precedence over the election. I hear you, it's like, why wouldn't they go ahead and use it?

        "God is not on the side of the heavy battalions, but of the best shots."- Voltaire

        by armenia on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:41:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think of that a lot, IC. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TN yellow dog

        I'm right there with you.  I don't like to air my darkest fears so as not to give them power.  But when I do, I encounter a sort of naive defiance which disturbs me.  I feel most are unable to see the immensity of the threat we face from within.  Among other things, it's a failure of imagination.

        But what are we to do but keep on keeping on.  The movie Sophie Scholl: The Final Days documents a futile act of resistance and education by an idealistic girl who loses her life.  The war is almost over, but she loses her life to principled resistance.  Her interrogator just wants her to say the right things and go back home, but she cannot help herself.  I wondered if this was a waste of a life.  It is sad and frustrating to watch.  Then I realized how inspired I was by the story, and how important it is that people in the future can appreciate the efforts of those who resisted.  Whatever happens, our duty is to hold our decent center and to stand with integrity.  I hope I have the courage always to do so.

        From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

        by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:03:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for taking the time to do this (0+ / 0-)

    It is hard to know which Constitutional outrage to be most angry at, but his is certainly at the top. I can only hope our stronger majority in Congress will keep focused on this.

    Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace ~~ Dalai Lama

    by happy in MA on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:15:30 AM PDT

    •  This one has a strong paper trail. (0+ / 0-)

      The issues are relatively clear-cut, and the implications are fundamental.  I have not heard such clear testimony before Congress on any other issue.  That's my humble take, FWIW.

      From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

      by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:05:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Blogs have different purposes (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AaronInSanDiego, cotterperson

    This is primarily an electoral politics blog that works to make a positive actual difference in the elections, while it can be argued that docudharma is more a place were issues are discussed.  

  •  I don't appreciate ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AaronInSanDiego, Burnsey

    being lectured on what news should be important to me; although you are certainly entitled to express your opinions.

    These corruption diaries are tiresome to me; it's not really any new information.  We vote Democrats in and they do nothing to stop it.  We petition, call and write our reps, and they do almost nothing but give it some lip service.  I can only take so many disgusting stories before I fall into miserable dispair of disempowerment.  

    The election news may be an illusion of empowerment, but it's interesting to me; and I won't feel guilty about what I am interested in.  

    I read a substantive diary on these issues and I fall silent; not really having anything to say in comments.    

    Unsustainable is unsustainable, which means it will eventually end.

    by Must Have Been The Roses on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:27:05 AM PDT

    •  Wait. Tiresome? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zannie, hulagirl, A Simple Man, geomoo

      Hearing about torture initiated, promoted, and advocated at the highest levels of the US government is "tiresome"? As in... boring, trivial, just not worth bothering your head about?

      That is, um, an unfortunate choice of wording.

      Perhaps you really meant "discouraging"? I'd agree that what's been going on is discouraging in the extreme.

      Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

      by Canadian Reader on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:06:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  thank you for so perfectly (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hulagirl, A Simple Man, geomoo, Scubaval

      describing why our country has sunk to the level it has. our citizens value comfort above all else.

      I can only take so many disgusting stories before I fall into miserable dispair of disempowerment.  

      yes, most people just want to shut out the bad news and digest what they find palatable.

      I fall silent

      so be it. perhaps you could simply have the fortitude to support people w/the courage to deal w/these issues. someone has to do it. if americans don't, we deserve the scorn of the global community and we deserve the leaders we have.

      •  Well, OK, but what do you recommend we do? n/t (0+ / 0-)
        •  wow (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          geomoo

          first off, don't ever shy away from learning about the worst abuse. for one thing, it makes you appreciate more how important it is to get the leadership we really need. did you read the green light vanity fair article linked to in the post? the reason i like vanity fair is because it is a mainstream magazine, yet very political. their political stories are crammed in between tons of fashion and cultural mainstream stuff and the format has an 'acceptable' quality about it that appeals to people who otherwise might think you are moving over to thew dark side (paranoid etc). in otherwords, you can send the article to your mother.

          i really think the most important thing each and everyone of us can do is simply to open dialoge w/other americans. make it completely acceptable to discuss these things. like for example when someone says'whats you been up to', say 'well..i really found out some weird news today that they were friggin discussing torture techniques in the oval office'!!!

          it is almost as if many people just don't want to discuss this stuff anymore it is so gruesome. but we can't let it be left up to the radical among us to broach the subject because then people will think it is only relevant to radical people, and it isn't. it is the bedrock of our culture.

          also, there is this tendency to think that it could never happen to us, or that these people being tortured are really different from us, but some of them really aren't (watch bbc video @link). there is a tendancy to think torture may be used as punishment, but that is not at the crux of torture. it is primarily used as a tactic to get information, any information, even from people we know are innocent.

          it is also used to coerce or brainwash people to work for the cia, which is documented here.

          secret prisons and secret renditions to other countries to torture them without authorization from congress are acts of shadow or secret governments. it follows a pattern we have condoned thru our actions in south america and other places that have cause the death and suffering of countless people. it isn't as if this hasn't been flushed out in the past, but it is rare to have such blatant evidence of this coming from the very top, in a way that tried to justify it.

          you may want to google 'the school of the americas' to understand our history w/this. and then just share this information.

          i wrote berkeley about yoo teaching there. i have also called my congressperson regarding gitmo. it ties in w/habeaus corpus, the patriot act, spying.. basically every cornerstone that was supposed to make our country and constitution unique and our country special at its formation has been thrashed. there is no greater symbol of this thrashing than torture.

          also, the understanding and implications of using confessions of tortured people to invade and take our country to war, which is what has been documented.. is staggering.

          so just talk about it once in awhile, even in passing. it needs to be part of a national dialogue.

    •  you didn't fall silent here, I see (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AaronInSanDiego, hulagirl, geomoo

      my goodness, is all I can say.

      Be interested in the elections... that's fine.

      But please, also be interested in what is important for the well-being of our country, or there won't be elections at some point in the future.

      Keep it real.  Keep it in perspective.

      Republicans: Your history has earned you a new mantra: "War and waste." ~~ Marta Jorgensen (CA-24 in '08)

      I am an Edwards Democrat!

      by Scubaval on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:48:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  !!!!!!!! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zannie, AmericanRiverCanyon, geomoo

    Torture is legally equivalent to slavery, genocide, and wars of aggression.  As such, there is an internationally accepted duty to prosecute and/or extradite for the crime of torture.  There is no possibility of immunity even for Heads of State.  There is no defense on the basis of obedience of orders.  There is no statute of limitations.  All of humanity claims the right of jurisdiction, so heinous and unacceptable is the crime of torture to all civilized peoples.  The crime of torture is so universally abhorred that no national law can provide cover against the widely accepted international laws condemning torture.

    Maybe it's that I just fell out of bed, but your rambling, cut and paste, semi-organized, heartfelt piece is the best bit of writing I have read on this subject (and you're competing with some real heavyweights).

    You can take the Republicans out of Washington, but you can't take Washington out of the Republic.

    by ZAP210 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:27:57 AM PDT

    •  Wow. You brought tears to my eyes. (0+ / 0-)

      Thank you.  This is so hard to write about, and you describe the diary well.  One wants to include to everything all at once--one wants to shake the world by the lapel.  In the process, there are blessed moments when clarity combines with passion.  I will cherish this comment, deserved or not.

      From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

      by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:09:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  John Yoo and UC Berkeley (5+ / 0-)

    This has been debated before at dkos, but if folks want John Yoo fired from Berkeley, the information in this diary could set the stage.  There needs to be something as strong as a criminal case to get the job done.

  •  I would certainly like to see more diaries (7+ / 0-)

    like these replace the Obama love/Hillary hate diaries.

    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

    by dotdot on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:35:58 AM PDT

  •  You are so right. It's shameful (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zannie, Blissing, hulagirl, armenia

    that primary coverage can shake something like this from the headlines. The real news is the continuing decay of our integrity as a society and a people (thanks to the moral depravity of Bush & Co.).

    Let's get some outrage on!

    Significant white middle-aged female caucus voter for Obama. Deal with it!

    by LarisaW on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:40:32 AM PDT

  •  This diary gives me hope (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    glitterscale, MichiganGirl

    that the next Congress and Administration will recognize that it has an obligation not just to the citizens of this country but to the entire world, to prosecute these people for the crimes they have committed. It has been one of my greatest fears that they will escape punishment, riding on the backs of "bipartisanship".

  •  recommend title change (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cotterperson

    your current title got the recognition it deserved but in the spirit of your diary, what's more important?

    A title that shames on DKos or a title that calls attention to the war crimes of the highest level of our corrupt govt?

    "circular firing squad" rhetoric = IOKIYAAD

    by pullbackthecurtain on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:49:46 AM PDT

    •  That's part of the game here, picking a title (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Canadian Reader, hulagirl

      The title is part of the reason it made the Rec list, because it made people look.

      A lot of great diaries have sunk because the title wasn't "catchy" enough.

      In TX-32, track the voting record of Pete Sessions at SessionsWatch.

      by CoolOnion on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:41:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yes but the point is it's there now (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cotterperson

        so why not change it to something that reflects the importance of the subject.  The current title served its purpose magnificently.  

        "circular firing squad" rhetoric = IOKIYAAD

        by pullbackthecurtain on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:19:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for the input. I'm torn. (0+ / 0-)

          My thinking is that, since it's getting attention, and the issue of the title is so discussed, I should keep it the same.  But I could change it and still give the old title in order to fill people in.  I'm sorry the title has been such a distraction.  I'm just not sure what to do.

          From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

          by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:12:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  keep the title (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            geomoo

            add a subtitle on the first line.  You were right to put a catchy title up front, but making it clear that the diary is about torture and lack of attention to it right up front would be both fair and clear.

            chant: leftists are PATRIOTS

            by fernan47 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:35:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Obamakos.com let you down? Get in line... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AmericanRiverCanyon, Kickemout

    This site is a shadow of what it used to be.

    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -- Mark Twain.

    by dcrolg on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:49:52 AM PDT

  •  Thanks geomoo. Excellent post. Those of us (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annrose, CoolOnion, zannie

    who have been writing about this for years share your concern, but are always glad to see a post like this get the attention it deserves. Keep on plugging away.

  •  Agree with ZAP210... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Canadian Reader, CoolOnion, zannie

    ..this is the best "article" I have read on the subject. My fear is that no matter what happens the Supreme Court will refuse to even allow these traitors of humanity to be tried. That's how deep this runs. They have created an environment that allows them to do these things unchecked and the new Dem majority will be harnessed by a SCOTUS that refuses to bite the hand that feeds.

    We are on the right track in creating our majority as evidenced in the recent special election in Mississippi. I see a Dem super-majority in the making with the right President, a sort of perfect storm of Dem governance. But the long nightmare will only end when the Justices go away and are replaced by real jurists.

    Thank you for taking the time to put this to paper (er screen).

    "Good to be here, good to be anywhere." --Keith Richards

    by bradreiman on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:52:54 AM PDT

  •  Holy crap! You get your news at dailyKos? (4+ / 0-)

    that's downright scary!

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

    by Skeptical Bastard on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:01:18 AM PDT

  •  can we confer *permanent* status on this diary? (6+ / 0-)

    Saw this yesterday, from a friend, on Common Dreams.

    Very grateful to you for posting it.

    And very grateful for all the fabulous work pulling together a completely comprehensive diary and backgrounder.  Which is what I value DKOS for, the excellence, the completeness, the helpfulness in letting us as citizens inform ourselves.

    I believe the Europeans are just waiting until after our election before initiating legal action.

  •  Excellent Diary! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Canadian Reader, tankej, CoolOnion

    I want the U.S. to regain its former status as a nation of laws. In order to do so, we must speak out, demanding that our elected representatives investigate and prosecute and expel or impeach war criminals inside and outside our government.  This should include THE LAW AGAINST CONDUCTING WARS OF AGGRESSION.

    "No statute of limitations" makes me happy.

    Bush hijacked the US with lies about 9/11 and crashed it into Iraq, killing over 500,000 human beings.

    by Zydekos on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:03:22 AM PDT

  •  Valuable diary thank you for posting. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CoolOnion

    I'm glad you posted and even more glad I read .

    "Beware the terrible simplifiers" Jacob Burckhardt, Historian

    by notquitedelilah on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:04:58 AM PDT

  •  Why do you assume torture is illegal? (0+ / 0-)

    What laws were broken specifically?

    And where the heck did you come up with this?

    Torture is legally equivalent to slavery, genocide, and wars of aggression.  As such, there is an internationally accepted duty to prosecute and/or extradite for the crime of torture.  There is no possibility of immunity even for Heads of State.  There is no defense on the basis of obedience of orders.  There is no statute of limitations.  All of humanity claims the right of jurisdiction, so heinous and unacceptable is the crime of torture to all civilized peoples.  The crime of torture is so universally abhorred that no national law can provide cover against the widely accepted international laws condemning torture.  Are we concerned that our nation is behaving like an international pariah?

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

    by Skeptical Bastard on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:07:55 AM PDT

    •  Well, we are signatories to most of Geneva, (8+ / 0-)

      and the Constitution binds us legally to international treaties that we sign.  The administration is trying to make an argument that the people we're torturing somehow don't fit the definition of protected combatant, but if you go back and read the conventions, you can see that it's a really lame parsing.  The reason there have been multiple Genevas is that people are constantly looking for loopholes rather than obeying the spirit of the convention, which is the banning of torture.  Each new convention is an attempt to close another loophole - so don't be surprised if we see another convention after the dust settles on this.

      Besides, for most of us, even if a legally defendable loophole exists, we consider torture morally unacceptable under any circumstances.  That's why we fight.

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:19:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No.. I think it's detestable.. (0+ / 0-)

        But I don't necessarily think it's illegal.. or worth the time pursuing "war crimes" charges against govt officials, including lawyers.

        "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

        by Skeptical Bastard on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:50:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  so you don't care if this is repeated (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cotterperson, hulagirl

          ad nauseum, as it were? How else would you seek to deter others from continuing to do this?

          "They're telling us something we don't understand"
          General Charles de Gaulle, Mai '68

          by subtropolis on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:10:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Defeat them in the next election.. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kickemout

            That's how we have our say.

            The people who cry "Impeach Bush and Cheney" haven't really thought things through very well.

            Everything the Bush administration has done has had some level of approval from Congress.  Pelosi took a freaking tour of the facilities and was told what would be done there, for cripes sake.

            If you start talking about impeachment, half the friggin' government will have to be included.

            So.. we elect new representatives who promise to do better.  That's about all we can do.

            "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

            by Skeptical Bastard on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:25:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Speak for yourself (4+ / 0-)

              "That's about all we can do".

              that's all you want to do, or care to do. Fine, just get out of the way and stop quibbling.

              There's a video game that needs your input in another media.  Spemding your time there means you won't waste the time of those trying to achieve somthing positive.

              McCain: Unlike most Repub licans, he HAS dropped bombs on a people and country that did not attack America. It fits: Warmonger

              by Pete Rock on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:57:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  "Something positive"??? (0+ / 0-)

                Seems like a lot of negative energy to me..

                But, hey.. whatever floats your boat.. have at it..  But, I think it is an exercise in futility.

                "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

                by Skeptical Bastard on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:29:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Impeachment not being done by elections (0+ / 0-)

                  obviously is a chance missed, moot after that.

                  But....what if McCain wins, a Senate solidly Dem, and even more Dem reps get in?

                  Wouldn't the transition lame duck days after the election be the PERFECT TIME to initiate the process and leave the deserving Republicans beaten and crushed and a smoking ruin?

                  Leave McCain a chance to heal. Or terrify his pants right off him.

                    Instead of their hijinks at the end of 110th Congressional session, tie them up with proceedings. It will take years to uncover and prosecute a lot of what has happened. Or, if Obama wins:

                  Maybe Pelosi can start on January 1,and have it done before Obama gets sworn in on the 20th.

                  Leaving him a "clean slate" to begin with, not some trash to be cleaned up.

                  McCain: Unlike most Repub licans, he HAS dropped bombs on a people and country that did not attack America. It fits: Warmonger

                  by Pete Rock on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:47:04 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The problem with that idea is... (0+ / 0-)

                    Each Congress convenes for only 2 years and must complete these types of things within those 2 years.    All such endeavors must be started anew with a new Congress.  Do you really think a lame duck Congress can impeach a President in a few months?

                    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

                    by Skeptical Bastard on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:46:37 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I believe they could impeach, but not convict (0+ / 0-)

                      Republican bitter dead enders covering for the worst might simply say no even if it is as plain as day. especially those about to be replaced (the lame ducks) ,etc. It would be good theatre and  a way to turn Bush and Cheney into pretzels.

                       If there is a change of parties, Obama winning, I wouldn't give them one extra day. Just like the "CEO" president he claims to be ,fire his arse and give him 24 hours to clear out. no niceities , no traditions of hanging making mischief and shredding files, etc in for several months, OUT.

                      He is going to jail eventually anyway,either in USA or Gitmo or the Hague.

                       There is no absolute reason he gets to stay after the election.It is an old  convention to wind up affairs and allow time for a slow stage coach to plod to DC or away from DC over weeks. He can be gone in hours by jet to Texas or where ever.

                      This ain't snark, just common sense observation. When a Fortune 500 or even a small company fires an executive, do they usually allow them free rein and to act as if  everything is OK for months afterwards? No they don't . They usually get a cardboard box to clear their desk and an escort to demand the keys and they are out the door. With Bush it would be some 40 foot trailers, fine, take his stinking crap with him.

                       I would place an armed guard at the WH and the VP's office and padlock the doors.  Just for Bush and Cheney. I would justify it by the impeachment proceedings that would run several weeks-just long
                      enough.

                      McCain: Unlike most Repub licans, he HAS dropped bombs on a people and country that did not attack America. It fits: Warmonger

                      by Pete Rock on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:51:28 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Unfortunately, we are not firing a president.. (0+ / 0-)

                        we are electing his successor. Obama will not have any powers until Jan 20th.

                        As far as Bush goes..  I believe he'll take the time between the elections and his exit from office to do things like bomb Iran...

                        "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

                        by Skeptical Bastard on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:30:39 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  You didn't read the diary or listen ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      geomoo

      ...did you?

    •  There is the Convention Against Torture (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hulagirl, geomoo

      That's a good start.

      And the U.S. is a signatory.

      Then you've got the International Criminal Court in the Hague which prosecutes grave violations of the Geneva Conventions, including torture.

      Here's a summary from Human Rights Watch of prevailing United States Law, including references to Geneva.

      I can't believe you're serious.

      We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan

      by CA Libertarian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:26:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well written indeed! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AmericanRiverCanyon, tahoebasha2

    Must admit I missed the diary yesterday, but already knew of 90% of the story. In the hub-bub of primary diaries and other nonsense, many things do get buried.

    This is the way the world works, I guess.

    But good diary geemoo!

    "If you want to go quickly, go alone. If you want to go far, go together." We need to go far, quickly.

    by shpilk on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:08:04 AM PDT

  •  Thanks to the Subcommittee (4+ / 0-)

    on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties - and the National Lawyers Guild - for their historic work.  And thank you for bringing them to our attention.

  •  need: chain of command for war crimes prosecution (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CoolOnion, tahoebasha2

    80 percent of success is just showing up - Woody Allen.

    by Churchill on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:09:45 AM PDT

  •  Correction... (4+ / 0-)

    it was Hamdan v Rumsfeld, not "Mamdan".  But this is certainly not a criticism, well done.

    Vyan

  •  Wonderful, horrible diary (3+ / 0-)

    Yes, Kossacks, pinch yourselves: it really is happening here. We've got to stop them.

  •  such an imp. issue, such a poor intro. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AaronInSanDiego, leema

    the long bashing turned me off.
    guilt tripping me is hardly the way to pull me in.
    thanks for the article.

  •  Tell me about it. (5+ / 0-)

    I wrote a series of diaries on the US/UK Extradition Treaty, trying to get Kos folks interested in helping me fight it.  I still think if I had made the Recommended list, it would not have passed.

    Now, I'm thinking maybe we can use the US/UK Extradition Treaty to prosecute Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al, for war crimes.  All the things we opposed in the treaty--no statute of limitations, not much in the way of a political exception clause, and a loosey-goosey interpretation of "terrorism"--might actually work in our favor, if applied retroactively to this administration.

    It would serve them right to have this horrendous treaty come back and bite them in their collective butts.

    In TX-32, track the voting record of Pete Sessions at SessionsWatch.

    by CoolOnion on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:35:59 AM PDT

  •  Philippe Sands on Bill Moyers (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TN yellow dog, geomoo, Scubaval

    Transcript and video at this link.

    In TX-32, track the voting record of Pete Sessions at SessionsWatch.

    by CoolOnion on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:43:35 AM PDT

  •  We need a better diary list.... (4+ / 0-)

    Diaries go by and scroll through so fast that many valuable diaries attract little attention.  (Until they're repeated several times, that is; the third or fourth on a major issue usually does hit the rec list.)

    The proposal to have a "view diaries by topic" option -- I'd use tags in a more orderly fashion, perhaps a "subscribe to all diaries with tag X" option? -- so that at least everyone following topic X closely will notice them -- would be a big help.

    That could also lead easily to "subject-based" rec lists.

    -5.63, -8.10 | Impeach, Convict, Remove & Bar from Office, Arrest, Indict, Convict, Imprison!

    by neroden on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:43:44 AM PDT

    •  You Will Die Tonight (0+ / 0-)

      What did you do?

      Instant denial.

      We must get the American people past that first step.
      We all have to admit that the torture happened.

      We have to get the American people past the denial of looking at something so very, very ugly.

      How do we do that?

      Thank you for this diary. I don't want to look, but for the health of this country I must.

      After the kitchen sink, no place for Hillary as VP. I've already done the dishes.

      by redtex on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:30:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I have an idea about that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Blissing, tahoebasha2

      that I've been considering diarying if I can figure out the details.  The upshot is that those of us who feel this way can agree to keep one centralizing diary on the rec list by automatically recc'ing the diary every time we log on.  The diary itself would be like a rescue list--a list of 8 non-primary related diaries with substance, a kind of sub-rec list.  The purpose would be to focus discussion for those who want to read other diaries but enjoy being involved in current comments.  Hosting the centralized diary could rotate.  The biggest problem is how to select the diaries in the centralizing diary and how long to keep them on.  Those are initial thoughts on the topic.

      From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

      by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:28:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yeah-but-but.... (0+ / 0-)

    I mean, primaries!

    Travis Childers! Scott Kleeb! (swoon, swoon) Anne Barth! (DOUBLE swoon-swoon)

    Clinton/Obama squaring off in the 4,865th primary of the year!

    Is there really anything else in the known universe that matters?

    "...And I woulda got away with it, if it hadn't been for that meddling Kos!" ---attributed to Tom DeLay

    by AdmiralNaismith on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:59:12 AM PDT

  •  I'm with you; but it's not just Kos that let us (5+ / 0-)

    down.

    The American Populace and all members of it's 'representative' government are in collective denial about the whole situation. Why?

    Because the fear card worked, and with few exceptions (maybe 10,000 people in the country) we all fell for it. We let this happen in our name.

    Let me put it another way:

    "With regard to cruelties committed in the name of a free society, some are guilty but all are responsible".

     -  Abraham Joshua Heschel  

    Translation:

    Where were the protests in the streets? They were few.
    Where was the media coverage? It was minimal.

    And those tireless and vigilant heroes who actually did get up to their neck in this mess, like Joseph Marguilles, were in some circles lablelled themselves as terrorists for even suggesting that there were people at Gitmo worth helping.

    My neighbor said to me "Those people deserve no better treatment".

    I said, "but how do  you know you have the right people? Habeas Corpus has been denied. There was not even a hearing to justify their detention"

    Neighbor: "They were captured on the battlefield."

    Now - this conversation took place two years after we found out who Jose Padilla was - a natural-born American citizen from Brooklyn, NY, arrested at O'Hare International airport. They don't get much more American than that, and if O'Hare is a battlefield, then so is my yard and his yard.

    But the neighbor then dismisses it by saying, "but it's just the one guy...."

    And how do we convince my neighbor that so many of those (not Padilla, but those who were "captured on the battlefield" in Afghanistan and elsewhere) were actually turned in by their neighbors to collect the cash bounties the U.S. governmenet was paying out for information? Would he turn me in for 25 grand?

    I know I don't want to find out the answer to that.

    How many have we released from Gitmo, confirming that we knew we did have the wrong guy? He excuses that by pulling out some story about one who was re-captured as a terrorist again, thus proving we have to keep them for time immortal.

    See the duplicity? If there is only one example like Jose Padilla to suggest Habeas Corpus threatens us all and prove that anywhere in the U.S. can be considered a "battlefield", that not enough for him, but then...

    ...then it only takes one example of someone who was set free and captured again to prove with no other example that we have to hold them forever.

    Let's face the real problem here: on the whole, the people of this country are still convinced (deluded) that America can do no wrong, and if we are found to actually have done wrong, 9/11 changed everything (even the Constitution, but without the 2/3 of Congress)

    Put this diary on the front page every day until we get it: The stain from this betrayal of what we think we still stand for besmirches us all; and it's getting bigger and more permanent every day we make no greater effort to remove it.

    George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

    by snafubar on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:02:33 AM PDT

  •  I logged in to recommend (4+ / 0-)

    I never do this on DKos -- it is too much trouble to look up my password and go through the steps.  But this a moral failing of the utmost consequence.  We The People have gone over to the Dark Side.

  •  Thanks (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2

    for brining this to my attention. Had completely missed it.

    This needs to be pushed on the traditional media. Although, as with the propaganda issue with DOD, they seem to close ranks on these types of subjects.

    Common Sense is not Common

    by RustyBrown on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:05:15 AM PDT

  •  Time for the torture guys to go to jail. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OleHippieChick, CA Libertarian

    Do not pass go.  Do not collect $200.00.

    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

    by bobdevo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:09:41 AM PDT

  •  Excellent Diary. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2

    Thanks for putting this together.

  •  Thank you for this diary, and others (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    geomoo

    and please know that this issue is significant to DKOS readers.  If the election commands attention right now, it is because the same corporate interests that got torturers into the highest level of our government are backing two candidates in a U.S. Presidential election, and getting a POTUS who has integrity is vital if these investigations are ever going to go anywhere.

    A diarist yesterday stated that they felt that Clinton is so enmeshed with the corporate shill that she will have a vested interest in colluding with the cover up just like McSame.  Read the diary about Abramoff, the Tan family . . . related in a sense, the cut-off from Human Rights values.

    We've had one election rigged against these issues, and it appears that there are efforts to do the same with the Democrat nomination which is why this has been such a distraction and such a fight.

    This administration has sneared at the UDHR and thumbed it's nose at every principle that America used to stand for.  Hannah Arendt wrote of "the banality of evil" and that has come to mind ever since Bush/Cheney stole the White House.  Mean and evil.

    •  Yesterday Inspector General Brennan (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TN yellow dog, geomoo

      recently retired from his 2007 stint in Iraq investigating State Department actions and funding called them out. He said there is a steady pattern of deception, omission, and corruption and State mismanagement that transcends the ordinary individual
      mistakes or incompetence. He called out Ambassador Ryan Crocker as complicit in this. He said the USA was encouraging the civil war arming militias and doing things at stated counter purpose to what they reported to Congress and the American people.

       This was not covered to any extent on CSpann or the media TV/cable .

       This is a mirror of the handling of the torture issue, where crimes are committed and an orchestrated attempt to suppress, cover deny and lies about accountability and culprits is spread thru the bribed pundits. Then the newsreaders and PR flacks and so on ignore or minimize the goings on.

      People, regardless of McCain or Obama as President, the push must continue to have a great tribunal, a great and full accounting of the criminality and treason to America represented by this administration, its tools and enablers in State, the agencies and even the Pentagon.

       No sense cluck clucking over Zimbabwe or Mynamar when our own country is down there in the filth.

      I believe the torture issues belong at the Hague, but that the crimes in the Justice Department over violations of citizens, the election thefts and the outright bribery and stealing need to be addressed here in America.

       To handle the rest, we need a new Special prosecutor team, and go and place the bunch of them on trial. There needs to be a cleanup of the judiciary, at various agencies, at State Dept.,and at the Pentagon. That's for starters.

       To pursue those people and absolutely not stop is the ONLY reason I would put Clinton in as VP. To run the great tribunal that will be needed to settle accounts with Addington, Yoo, Rove and the rest.

        The trials will be the eyes opened for the number of our people who are still deceived and blind to the extent of terror and corruption the CheneyBush cabal inflicts on us.

       That's the deal. Does she understand the absolute need and desire to go after the criminals? If not, she has no role in a future Administration.

       

      McCain: Unlike most Repub licans, he HAS dropped bombs on a people and country that did not attack America. It fits: Warmonger

      by Pete Rock on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:33:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Recognition here is not important (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    conchita, Blissing, tahoebasha2, geomoo

    People on this site are aware of a lot of things that most people are not. The question is what is Congress going to do about this testimony. Pelosi has taken impeachment off the table. The media seems bored with the whole cycle of yet another atrocity committed by the Bush administration as it waits for the last act in this despicable little play. It's almost as if everyone wants to wait until the end to see what final outrage will be committed before Congress finally says "Enough!" and pulls the plug.

    So instead of applauding the diarist, which he is entirely deserving of, we need to send off letters to our representatives urging them to take action now and not wait for the final curtain call of this shameless administration.

  •  What to do beyond commenting (4+ / 0-)

    Please bear with me, this is my first comment.

    The title of this diary, and being the first diary, made me look.  The words kept me reading.  Thank you for a heart-felt comment, and thank you for the content.

    Let's keep going. Let's do something.

    Email Berkely, Dean of the Law Dept.

    Send a copy of the content (cut & paste if needed) to your local newspapers.

    Email news wires and TV stations. I saw nothing about this House investigation on CNN or MSNBC.

    What else can we do to keep pressure on Congress, on The Media, on ourselves, to keep this in the news.

  •  Never a good idea (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AaronInSanDiego

    to get your news from just once source. And smugness is never EVER a good idea.  I read dkos several times a day, but even progressives need to avoid polarization and echo chambers. Branch out dude!

  •  I'll tell you why: (0+ / 0-)

    You can blame Hillary Clinton, who won't admit defeat when it is staring her in the face. Yesterday was Primary Day in West Virginia.

  •  You depend on THIS site for your news?! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CA Libertarian

    um ok, here cuz I feel bad:

    MOSAIC- Mideast News and great podcasts

    The New York Times- paper or internet

    The Economist- magazine or internet

    wow, this site is the worst place to get yer news buddy

    •  It's fascinating to look at the opposite sides (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tahoebasha2

      Fox News - understand how the other side is being fed

      Al Jazeera - biased in its own way, but a lot of things you'll never see here and a perspective we need in the Middle East

      Reasonably balanced news from the BBC.

      Another site I like on middle east affairs is Haaretz, a moderate Israeli newspaper.  Their opinion page is fascinating.

      Definitely second the recommendation for the Economist.  Some assail it for being conservative - I think it's the smartest magazine out there, a challenging read.  You do still have to watch for politics, as is the case in any source.

      We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan

      by CA Libertarian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:08:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Gotta disagree on The Economist... (0+ / 0-)

        Yes, it's more in-depth than your typical right-wing shill rag (Time Magazine, Newsweek), but it's still pretty outrageous in its naked cheerleading for neocon/Thatcherite causes. Perhaps it is valuable in the "know-thy-enemy" sort of way you mention, but just because it is "smart" doesn't mean that it isn't doing tremendous damage in terms of international political thought and action.

        And if you are looking to go all out into wonky analysis, Foreign Affairs would probably be a far better choice with its true academic standards and willingness to publish in-depth articles from both sides of the political spectrum.

        For example, check out their Campaign 2008 section which includes articles written by:

        Mike Huckabee
        Bill Richardson
        Hillary Clinton
        John McCain
        Rudolph Giuliani
        John Edwards
        Barack Obama
        Mitt Romney

      •  Yeah, The Economist is my new fav (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tahoebasha2

        for a while I thought it to be to "haughty taughty" but the coverage is surprisingly objective and informative in the way of letting you know what to expect.

        Only need to look at the economy of countries to see how policy is gonna pan out.

        Crystal ball-ish in a way.

    •  There is some meat in there but you're dead wrong (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tahoebasha2

      about one thing:

      this site is the worst place to get yer news buddy

       Since coming here, I am better informed earlier than I've ever been before.  These days are different, but this place is primary source oriented.  The discriminating visitor hear reads the letter Conyers wrote, sees a statistical analysis of the email dumps.  The self-monitoring is just like those market models created to predict outcomes--they move the site toward accuracy.

      I would be better informed if I read widely, sure, but I've never been a news junky.  I'm different from you and the others who have offered to plan my day for me.  The point is that here I can be very connected with most important issues even without your appetite for it, or at least I could until primary season rolled around.  

      The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the feedback I'm getting from the world is that I'm an extremely high info person by virtue of reading this site.  I could be doing better, but I definitely could be doing a lot worse.

      And it's people like you that keep this site so well informed.  It trickles down to people like me more effectively than you might imagine.

      From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

      by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:41:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  hmm (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        geomoo

        And it's people like you that keep this site so well informed.  It trickles down to people like me more effectively than you might imagine.

        I'm not that great of a person, i'm downright horrible, or so some people here would have you believe.

        You'll see this in my diaries.

        Know this though, I do what I do out of love for the people.

        In hopes that other opinions can be expressed outside of the rank-and-file party lines this site narrows you into.

        Expand your info sources, think for yourself, and never give up the fight for your own mind.

        <3 JSR</p>

  •  Second video, 6:13...Nadler's pointed question (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    conchita, zannie, tahoebasha2, geomoo, Scubaval

    First, thanks for a great piece geomoo!  Marjorie Cohn's testimony was brilliant and I would hope Nadler will make use of her arguments in the future.

    Now about Nadler...

    I went to a debate in NYC many months ago where surrogates from the respective Democratic presidential candidates were participating.  It took place at a community center on a Sunday afternoon.  All the surrogates were regular activists or members of the campaign...except for Clinton's, who happened to be Jerrold Nadler - Representative of the 8th District of New York.

    It seems that a local Human Rights group got wind of this and decided to use this opportunity to pressure Nadler, prominent member of the House Judiciary Committee, to begin impeachment proceedings against Bush and Cheney for war crimes.

    They kept disrupting Nadler when he spoke on Hillary's behalf and made an otherwise uneventful debate interesting.  Ultimately, Nadler relented and addressed the protesters‘s concerns. His response was that he, and other Democrat leaders, did not want to begin impeachment proceedings at this time because it would seem like they would be engaging in partisan politics in a delicate period where Democrats seemed poised to win back the White House.

    Therefore, I am guessing that Nadler's question about the statute of limitations at 6:13 in the second video was Nadler verifying that he had the leeway to wait until after the presidential elections are over in order to pursue war crimes investigations against members of the Bush administration.

    "When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative." - Martin Luther King Jr

    by Riyaz Guerra on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:00:46 AM PDT

    •  Oh, so now it's the delicate time! (0+ / 0-)

      This is just the latest excuse. Nadler has been under pressure from pro-impeachment groups for at least one-and-a-half years and he keeps coming up with new ones. Don't move, be very afraid, or we'll loose the White House. Of course, should Bush decide to strike Iranian targets, there's his next excuse. "The President just started war with Iran, so it's not a good time."

      How dysfunctionally scared do you have to be to think that impeachment hearings based on admitted TORTURE DECISIONS will be interpreted by the public as "partisan politics?"

    •  It'll be too late. (0+ / 0-)

      Therefore, I am guessing that Nadler's question about the statute of limitations at 6:13 in the second video was Nadler verifying that he had the leeway to wait until after the presidential elections are over in order to pursue war crimes investigations against members of the Bush administration.

      That will all be rendered moot on the last day of Bush's presidency when he issues blanket pardons to all players involved...

  •  SIBEL EDMONDS MON. OCT 29, 2007 (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2, mechascorpio

    FBI Whistleblower...I will tell all and name new names.  (by Lukery)  492 comments..and then nothing.
       How do we get this corruption out?  We all know about this shit, but there must be a way to spread it beyond the Kossack community.  There is so much wrong going on that you can't keep up even if you have a program.  We're preachin' to the choir here.
    Choir is probly misspelt, but y'all know what I mean.  Please advise...
    By the way, good post. I probably never would have noticed had you not titled it as you did.

  •  These issues are the ones that we must get back (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2, Sentinel

    to and wean ourselves away from the sad distraction that Hillary Clinton's pointless campaign has become. Here at KOS and even on shows such as Countdown we have all become so totally absorbed in presidential politics that we have forgotten the critical issues that cry out for accountability now before it is too late. As a result, for the most part, the Dem leadership in Congress has allowed this distraction of public attention to serve as their excuse for further inaction on serving subpoenas, Justice Department investigations, torture, wiretapping, etc.

    Obama and Clinton will resolve. McCain will be defeated. The GOP will get the whipping they so royally deserve, but the rest of us should stop this total obsession and refocus on issues such as brought out by this diary!

  •  Mahalo nui for this diary! I have been sick to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Blissing, tahoebasha2

    my stomach over the depths to which my country has fallen, and the unspeakable acts which our criminal government admits it has performed on my fellow humans.

    I teach 6th grade, and when we study the Middle Ages, I used to be able to say that our society has moved beyond such barbaric customs.  No more.  

    I pray that justice will be done, and that these war criminals are punished.  Bravo for you, and for all those who speak out against torture!

  •  Sadly, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave925, tahoebasha2

    Maybe some lower level people will be disbarred or face some jail time, but the highest level, most culpable will not pay any price or be punished in any way.  In part, because our congress and Bush did not ratify and sign the war crimes treaty years ago.

    Also, American attention span is so fleeting, there is little pressure on our own 'evil doers' so these things will continue and people will get away with their ill deeds.

  •  Scalia Impeachment? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2

    I saw Scalia being interviewed on TV the other week--it might have been 60 Minutes. When asked what he thought about torture comprising "cruel and unusual punishment," he replied, "Torture isn't punishment."

    Does that constitute empowering torture? Is it possible we may see an impeachment of a Supreme Court Justice over this?

    A guy can dream, after all.

  •  thanks for letting us know about this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2

    too much on the horse race of politics

    if this fell off the radar screen at Daily Kos,
    what about the main stream media. I'll bet not too much of this was on the main stream media

  •  None Can Hide From God (0+ / 0-)

    Whenever I feel low because I feel some unjustice will go unpunished, I try to take the long view.

    One day, those responsible for this torture will die.
    And on that day, assuming there is a God and an afterlife, they will not be able to hide what they have done anymore.  They will not be able to avoid punishment.  They will not be able to use worldly power or riches to buy themselves a way out.  They will be recognized by everyone who looks at them for what they really are.  God and the angels will shun them.  There will be nowhere and no-one they can run to for comfort.  They will not be able to escape from confrontations with those who they harmed and killed in life.  They will experience the agonies they brought upon others.  They will be judged and made to understand that they are criminals, outcasts, the lowest of the low.  They will be prevented from harming others ever again.  They will feel the eyes of God on them always, like a divine nemesis, and they will never have a moment alone to plot any more evil.  They will be in Hell.  Forever.

    Here on earth, history will remember them in infamy.  Their stories will teach generations of children the wrongness of torture and of complacency with government.  They WILL be compared to Nazis.  Maybe not this year or next year, but one day it will come.
    I believe justice will come.

  •  I'm Glad This Got Rec'd (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2, geomoo, BenDisraeli

    I posted a diary a few weeks ago calling for John Yoo's dismissal from Berkeley's Law school and got a lot of static from lawyers and alums but no one seemed to care too much about his complete lack of morality.

  •  Thank you (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2

    for this important & profound diary.

    Highly Rec'd & Tipped

    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official... ~Theodore Roosevelt

    by Pam from Calif on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:06:18 AM PDT

  •  Personally I think it is our duty as Kossacks to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2, geomoo

    recommend diaries that we find worthy every time we come across one on dKos - especially when dealing with administration criminality.  The news needs to get out there, and if it takes a little REC from me, then by hell I'm going to do it.  It is also a good idea to not just rec, but to make a comment as well.  This is a participatory process - let's participate.

  •  One of the best diaries (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2, geomoo

    I have ever read, and I've read a LOT! lol. Great work. Masterful. And important.

    If we continue to accumulate only power and not wisdom, we will surely destroy ourselves. -Carl Sagan

    by LightningMan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:15:11 PM PDT

  •  Sorry, (12+ / 0-)

    The outrage meter is overloaded.
    The BS detector is working overtime.
    Irony calculator maxed out last year.
    The Justice Server stopped working in 2000.
    All the Honesty sensors need to be recalibrate.
    There's a bug in the Fair Elections software.
    The "Every Vote Counts" RAM was damaged in 2000.
    The replacement "EVC" RAM was stolen in 2004.
    Funding to replace the replacement "EVC" is in doubt.
    There have been numerous education shortfalls due to defective NCLB.
    Revenue Collection Reassignment increased spending pressure on the top 2% entitled personal.
    The same RCR caused a loss for the bottom 98%.
    Impeachment circuits were removed causing speaker damage.
    The CIC OS (beta version 43.O.O) is to be deleted.
    The new Commander-In-Chief OS is guaranteed stable and user friendly.        

         

     

    If a man claims to speak for god he will assure he is also gods' banker.

    by AuntieM on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:43:36 PM PDT

  •  This just ain't... (0+ / 0-)

    ...on the radar during the campaign/election cycle. As Archie Bunker would say; "Fah'git'a'bout'it!"

  •  Long diaries are not a problem (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2

    Many of us are tired of soundbite journalism, so bang away on the computer keys.  Nevertheless, most readers find it difficult to dig through long diaries in search of golden insights.

    Summarizing the diary in the first few paragraphs and providing plentiful subheads throughout the document make it easier for people to assess whether they should read on.

    •  I hear you and I usually try to do that. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tahoebasha2, Deep Harm

      This time there was so much information, and the way the diary kept expanding on me, I liked the organic feel.  There is so much information to get out, and I didn't want to kill the passion with organization and linearity.  I'm usually not very comfortable with rambling--I usually edit and re-edit to tighten things up.  I chose not to do so here, for better or for worse.

      Thanks so much for the comment.  I've appreciated it when you've taken the trouble to organize a lot of info to make it digestible.

      From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

      by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:48:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If DKos had a permanent rec list . . . (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Blissing, tahoebasha2

    . . . for matters warranting our continued and focused attention, this post would belong on that list.

    . . .three of the most galvanizing testimonies before Congress I have ever been privileged to witness.

    DITTO!  Found myself wanting, as you have, for news of this hearing to be shouted from the roof tops.

    Chisty Hardin Smith, at Firedoglake, posted about it:

    The Betrayal of American Values

    . . . but under-reported the testimony of Marjorie Cohn and the work of the NLG. Cohn's testimony, btw, goes beyond indicting Bush & Co. for torture. She calls the oil grab in Iraq what it is -- an "aggressive war;" the very crime prosecuted at Nuremburg; about which Justice Robert H. Jackson stated during the trial:

    "To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

    Scott Horton interviewed Phillipe Sands a few days before the hearing:

    A Discussion with Philippe Sands -- Torture Team: Rumsfeld’s Memo and the Betrayal of American Values

    There was no thread specifically about this hearing at Balkinization (which surprised me enough I sent a "Whuddup?" email to Jack Balkin).

    THANK YOU, geomoo!!!

  •  Everybody who reelected bush is complicit in this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2

    The Abu Ghraib pictures came out before the 2004 election.

    Couple this with Rumsfeld's wistful wishing for further attacks upon America, and you know how stinkingly stupid the bushies really are.

    Only the PTA? You know what the PTA stands for? Three things I respect and fear. Parents, Teachers, and Associations. [Rob Petrie]

    by eroded47095 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:18:49 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for the diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2, geomoo

    I'll tell ya, justice would be served if we were able to lock up the people who enabled the torture, like John Yoo. Instead he has tenure at Cal Berkeley!

    Watching the videos made me feel a bit sick. I think it is because I believe nothing is going to happen to these men. No matter how wrong they were and how illegal their actions.

    01-20-09: THE END OF AN ERROR

    by kimoconnor on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:08:39 PM PDT

    •  I'm sorry. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tahoebasha2

      I can understand having that reaction.  And perhaps worse, John Bybee is a judge.

      But my response was quite different.  I was energized more than I have been since it became clear there would be no meaningful action by Congress against these guys.

      The beauty of the word jus congens brings tears to my eyes.  We are not crazy--the collective wisdom of the civilized world stands beside us.

      Hang in there, kim.

      From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

      by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:27:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Jus Cogens Defined (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2, geomoo, CarmenT

    This is the definition of jus cogens according to the International Court of Justice.

    The basic concept of jus cogens is that there are some things in the international legal community that are universal, supreme and untouchable as far as international law goes. Something that is accepted as "jus cogens" is something that the international community feels cannot be superseded. It does not have to be written down, and states do not have to specifically agree to it. It is so high up the ladder of international relations and law that it doesn’t need to be said. It just "is."

    I like the part about universal, supreme and untouchable. There is no statute of limitations on torture.

    •  Jus Cogens - Latin for "Compelling Law" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      geomoo

      Completely agree:

      1. No Pre-emption: No national or international law can ever supersede or diminish it in any way.
      1. No Immunity: No person, whether civilian, judicial, military or head of state is or can ever be immune.
      1. No Limitation: No statute of limitations applies, nor can there be diminishing of responsibility or due punishment over time.
      1. No Excuses: As is also the case for the Geneva convention, no excuse is allowed whatsoever for violating the law. You cannot claim you acted under orders, nor as seems relevant in this case can you receive ANY immunity by claiming that you took legal advice.
      1. No Exceptions: Anyone who participates in illegal activities considered under Jus Cogens is liable. Since these laws are based on the most basic human rights, it is not necessary to prove intent and there can be no argument for exception by anyone involved who is considered of sound mind.

      Don't PANIC!, it's 42.

      by CarmenT on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:00:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Anyone who gets their news from DailyKos... (3+ / 0-)

    ...or so much as propagates such behavior as a legitimate alternative, needs to take ownership of being a lower-information blogger. It actually makes my head hurt hearing that I may be taking guidance from such a low-bar seeker...

    First, great diary. Vitally important. Tip'd/Rec'd

    But more important, IMO dkos represents, meaning, is limited to, the interests and analysis of the members online at any given time.

    As the rec-list become mono-thematic, the reporting and analysis gets lower in quality, the commentary follows downhill, and vitality of the source does too. Slim pickings.

    When the rec-list reflects the diversity of storms in every direction - the opposite of a California kind of weather report, "Just another sunny day in Paradise" - then there's gold in them thar hills.

    Either way, it's a subset.

    HR 676 or California's SB-840 - the only health reform proposals worth my vote.

    by kck on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:47:01 PM PDT

    •  I think your view is way too narrow. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kck, tahoebasha2

      The rec-list is not what it used to be.  In fact, it is quite a low-grade source of information.  I think we are agreed on that.

      But there are a lot of other diaries that are first class.  The Rescue Rangers provide a back-up source of finding them, and other commentors point to them in the open threads.  A discerning reader can be astoundingly well-informed.  I put my information level well above those who turn to newspapers or even good newsmagazines, because I get a lot of info every day.

      I think of dKos as enjoying the advantages of those markets created to make predictions.  People are invited to play the market for reward, and the collective wisdom of people in these markets makes for powerful predictive power.

      I'll use your comment as an example.  I make the claim that I get all my news from dKos.  In response to this claim, you provide a corrective alternative view.  There have been a few others in this thread.  Having read through this thread, I think an intelligent reader can quite clearly evaluate the relative strengths of that position.  Not only that, if I chose to "improve" my info gathering in the manner you suggest, there is a terrific discussion upthread linking reliable and varied sources of information, including foreign press.  So, this thread offers a fairly thorough debate of this question, complete with suggestions for improvement from highly intelligent and practiced experts.  And this issue is a very minor and peripheral one here.

      I hope that's not too paradoxical for you.  I think it does support my point.  I imagine that well-informed news junkies fail to appreciate the extent to which their presence here trickles down to non news junkies such as myself.

      I think of this place as primary source oriented.  You hear from the people that live where the tornado hit, you read the actual letter that Congress sent.

      Finally, bs does not fair well here.  My claim to get all my news here has received an immediate and thorough examination, with all the ways it is lacking fully exposed.  For an intelligent person, the truth can be found here.

      From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

      by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:34:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Absolutely, there are wonderful diaries... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        geomoo, Futuristic Dreamer

        ...which is why I spend so much time  I'm an information junkie, have all my time available to be desires, read the entirety of 4 newspapers a day, all you'd know, and a very small set of the AP articles reach dkos.  

        On some topics, opposition analysis for instance, dkos beats the press, but not on news.

        The comments are the riCh reservoir you describe, agreed 100%.  

        I agree that the bs is filtered out, but the down side of that (if there is one, it's minor) is that dkos fails to how the bs people are ingesting.

        But Dkos is not a news source by definition and mission. And IMHO it can't be a substitute for actual news sources. Otherwise, I would find myself reducing my daily reading.

        HR 676 or California's SB-840 - the only health reform proposals worth my vote.

        by kck on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:53:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you're mostly right on that last point. (0+ / 0-)

          I have never been a news junkie, never been a regular reader of newspapers or newsmagazines, never watched television news.  As someone on the opposite side of the fence, I think you would be fairly amazed at how much information has always reached me through simply listening to what people are talking about. But I am a special case, if I may be so bold.  I absorb information readily in a highly intuitive way.  I get a sense of a town within an hour of being there, for example.  And I used to listen to NPR for hours every day.  That source has sure paled in comparison with dKos.

          Admittedly, I read Science News and I'm always reading non-fiction, but I don't consider that news exactly.  I think what dKos does is empower my strength and natural way--absorbing info from the people around me.  As a result of being here, however, I've begun reading a lot more magazines because my interest in politics has gone way up.

          Just one of my things--I find the news in papers always seems fresh but it has a sameness about it over time.  Another fire, another new store, another lying politician.  I have always discounted the value of reading newspapers.  Now that dKos has gotten me more interested in politics, I see that the meat is in the details and that all politics is local.  But I think I'll never have the stomach for that.

          May I suggest that, while I am sure I'm way more low information than you in a certain respect, my staying back and watching larger trends offers something that is equally valuable to detailed information.  I hope you can see from this diary that when I start following a thread, I can dig right in there among shards.

          Well, enough about my favorite topic--me. Let me end with an appreciation for people like you who keep this site and others grounded.

          From Chile to China to Iraq, torture has been a silent partner in the global free-market crusade. - Naomi Klein

          by geomoo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:16:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Read the New York Times, listen to NPR, etc (0+ / 0-)

            There are plenty of professional reliable news sources out there. Blogs aren't one; blogs are for discussion and are not a place to get news.

            Daily Kos is a lot like my favorite coffee shops. At my favorite coffee shops we share insights and opinions about the things we know, make each other think, direct each other to interesting stories we may have missed, sometime in a physical paper, sometimes on the internet, but we don't get news from there. We get news from the paper, in hard copy or electronic version on a laptop, then we discuss how we feel about it, and/or our personal interpretations of it. We learn from each other, but we don't get news from each other. Occasionally you can walk in and ask someone for a summary of the news, but if we didn't read real papers we'd have nothing to talk about.  Whenever someone at the cafe says they get their news from blogs they tend to make asses of themselves regularly, and the people who regularly make asses of themselves often end up admitting they get news from blogs.

            "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." ~Mahatma Gandhi

            by Futuristic Dreamer on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:55:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  the only way to stay informed (0+ / 0-)

        is to get news from multiple sources.  Most people don't have the time for that, but it is necessary.  I have friends who were astonished to find out about Wright.  "I listen to NPR every day.  Why  didn't I know about Wright."  Well, I didn't retort: you can't get news from one source because she is my oldest friend, but I knew about Wright a long, long time ago and I can't even remember how I learned of him.  You may be frustrated with MSM, but over time, pretty much everything is there.  The 'truth' leaks out.  It is in the cracks and between the lines.  

        I would agree DKos can give you a heads up, but getting all your info here could really be dangerous.

        chant: leftists are PATRIOTS

        by fernan47 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 05:43:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  On today's DemocracyNow: Italy vs. CIA rendition (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mickT, geomoo

    Berlusconi Can Be Called to Testify in CIA Kidnap Case

    In Italy, a judge has ruled Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and other top officials can be called to testify on the CIA kidnapping of the Egyptian cleric Abu Omar. Omar was seized on the streets of Milan in 2003 and taken to US bases in Italy and Germany before being sent to Egypt. There, he says, he was tortured during a four-year imprisonment. Twenty-six Americans and five Italians have been indicted in the case. In Egypt, Abu Omar said Berlusconi should be held responsible.

    Abu Omar: "I think, without a doubt, that Berlusconi knew about this case, because this case touched upon the sovereignty of Italy, and if the head of the Italian military intelligence services was involved, he takes his decisions with direct permission from the head of state. And according to the employment hierarchy, Berlusconi has direct responsibility for this matter on the basis that the head of intelligence is his direct subordinate."

    Berlusconi would become the first head of state to testify over the CIA’s kidnapping and torture program.

    http://www.democracynow.org/

    A foreign head of state is being held accountable for collaborating with the CIA on war crimes, while here at home lawmakers prevaricate and the DOJ is silent.

  •  See my take on some of this material (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tahoebasha2, geomoo

    War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

    by Valtin on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:44:52 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for bringing this to our attention. (0+ / 0-)

    "We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America." Barack Obama

    by keeplaughing on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:41:51 PM PDT

  •  Whose cage should we rattle? (0+ / 0-)

    Rep. Jerrold Nadler was one of the members of the Judiciary Committee who was actively questioning these witnesses, and I see he's chair of the subcommittee on civil rights.

    "The statute of limitations is never."  For that reason, I could believe it is better to wait until after George W. Bush leaves office to push this matter.  If he pardons anyone before he steps down, he and anyone accepting a pardon should be impeached and barred from ever holding a Federal office again.  Further, since torture is a crime for which most countries recognize and claim universal jurisdiction, we can hope these folks will some day be extradited to a country that won't recognize a US pardon, but will put them on trial.

    We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

    by david78209 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:54:06 PM PDT

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