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Okay, today we found out that counting the fake Florida primary is, according to Hillary Clinton, like:

It's also like the Big Bang, Jesus, and cute kittens.

Update: Just like Zimbabwe, circa 2000.

More than thirty people have been killed in the run-up to the poll, most of them supporters of the main opposition party, the Movement for Democratic Change.

A motorcade taking the party leader, Morgan Tsvangirai, on a last day of campaigning in poor suburbs of the capital, Harare, was stoned by government supporters, but Mr Tsvangirai was not hurt.

Update II: Just like Birmingham:

Update III: Just like the suffragists:

On the night of November 15, 1917, the superintendent of the Occoquan Workhouse, W.H. Whittaker, ordered the nearly forty guards to brutalize the suffragists. They beat Lucy Burns, chained her hands to the cell bars above her head, then left her there for the night. They threw Dora Lewis into a dark cell and smashed her head against an iron bed, which knocked her out. Her cellmate, Alice Cosu, who believed Lewis to be dead, suffered a heart attack. According to affidavits, guards grabbed, dragged, beat, choked, pinched, and kicked other women.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:18 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Kitties for Clinton (7+ / 0-)

    "And if I don't see ya, in a long, long while, I'll try to find you left of the dial" - Paul Westerberg

    by D Wreck on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:19:37 PM PDT

    •  Nope....see my comment...cats for Obama (14+ / 0-)

      Linked below!

      Impeachment...if it's still off the table, can we at least kick it around the floor a bit? AnnieJo

      by SallyCat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:21:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No SallyKitties for Clinton! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        soms

        "And if I don't see ya, in a long, long while, I'll try to find you left of the dial" - Paul Westerberg

        by D Wreck on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:21:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nooooooooooooooooooo! (22+ / 0-)

          Impeachment...if it's still off the table, can we at least kick it around the floor a bit? AnnieJo

          by SallyCat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:24:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hillary pledged to NOT PARTICIPATE (9+ / 0-)

            Look at how Clinton deliberately tried to distort and mislead regarding the pledge she signed, in this January 2008 press release:

            1/25/2008

            Statement by Senator Hillary Clinton on the Seating of Delegates at the Democratic National Convention

            "I hear all the time from people in Florida and Michigan that they want their voices heard in selecting the Democratic nominee.

            "I believe our nominee will need the enthusiastic support of Democrats in these states to win the general election, and so I will ask my Democratic convention delegates to support seating the delegations from Florida and Michigan. I know not all of my delegates will do so and I fully respect that decision. But I hope to be President of all 50 states and U.S. territories, and that we have all 50 states represented and counted at the Democratic convention.

            "I hope my fellow potential nominees will join me in this.

            "I will of course be following the no-campaigning pledge that I signed, and expect others will as well."

            IT WAS NOT A "NO CAMPAIGNING" PLEDGE.  IT WAS A NO PARTICIPATING AND NO CAMPAIGNING PLEDGE.

            I will say that again. IT WAS NOT A "NO CAMPAIGNING" PLEDGE.  IT WAS A NO PARTICIPATING AND NO CAMPAIGNING PLEDGE.

            Sleazy.

            "They blamed it on the Islamic fanatics, at the time. [...] That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary."-Handmaid's Tale

            by JLFinch on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:55:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  What does "participate" mean? (6+ / 0-)

            From law.com:

            participate
            v. to invest and then receive a part or share, as in business profits, payments on a promissory note, title to land, or as one of the beneficiaries of the estate of a person who has died.

            "...and then receive a part or share." Is Hillary now trying to "receive a part or share"?  If so, then she is "participating".

            Look at the preamble to the pledge, evidencing the intent of those who signed the pledge:

            WHEREAS,  Over a year ago, the Democratic National Committee established a
            2008 nominating calendar;

            WHEREAS, this calendar honors the racial, ethnic, economic and geographic
            diversity of our party and our country;

            WHEREAS, the DNC also honored the traditional role of retail politics early in the
            nominating process, to insure that money alone will not determine our
            presidential nominee;

            WHEREAS, it is the desire of Presidential campaigns, the DNC, the states and
            the American people to bring finality, predictability and common sense to the
            nominating calendar.

            Finality.

            Is claiming victory in Michigan and Florida "receiving or taking a part or share"?  Is it contrary to the clearly-stated intent of the pledge?

            Is claiming votes from Michigan and Florida "receiving or taking a part or share"?  Is it contrary to the clearly-stated intent of the pledge?

            Is claiming pledged delegates from Michigan or Florida "receiving or taking a part or share"?  Is it contrary to the clearly-stated intent of the pledge?

            Is threatening a floor fight and blackmailing the Democratic party contrary to the clearly-stated intent of the pledge?

            "They blamed it on the Islamic fanatics, at the time. [...] That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary."-Handmaid's Tale

            by JLFinch on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:58:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Ickes voted to disenfrachise FL (6+ / 0-)

            Hillary has known all along what the rules were and her campaign strategist, Harold Ickes, was directly involved in the stripping of Michigan and Florida's delegates:

            On Aug. 25, when the DNC's rules panel declared Florida's primary date out of order, it agreed by a near-unanimous majority to exceed the 50 percent penalty called for under party rules. Instead, the group stripped Florida of all 210 delegates to underscore its displeasure with Florida's defiance and to discourage other states from following suit. In doing so, the DNC essentially committed itself, for fairness' sake, to strip the similarly defiant Michigan of all 156 of its delegates three months later. Clinton held tremendous potential leverage over this decision, and not only because she was then widely judged the likely nominee. Of the committee's 30 members, a near-majority of 12 were Clinton supporters. All of them—most notably strategist Harold Ickes—voted for Florida's full disenfranchisement. (The only dissenting vote was cast by a Tallahassee, Fla., city commissioner who supported Obama.)

            ...

            After ignoring Florida and Michigan for months, the Clinton campaign soon couldn't say enough nice things about them. "Tonight Michigan Democrats spoke loudly for a new beginning," then-campaign manager Patti Solis Doyle exulted over Clinton's victory there on Jan. 15. "Your voices matter. And as president, Hillary Clinton will not only keep listening, but will make sure your voice is always heard."

            Slate

            HELLO? FLORIDA?  DID YOU SEE THIS PART:   Of the committee's 30 members, a near-majority of 12 were Clinton supporters. All of them—most notably strategist Harold Ickes—voted for Florida's full disenfranchisement.

            "They blamed it on the Islamic fanatics, at the time. [...] That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary."-Handmaid's Tale

            by JLFinch on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:00:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Hillary: Michigan "won't count" (10+ / 0-)

            Hillary said in October, 2007 before the Michigan primary:

            "It's clear this election they are having is not going to count for anything":

            "They blamed it on the Islamic fanatics, at the time. [...] That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary."-Handmaid's Tale

            by JLFinch on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:02:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Lots of well-placed angry growls for Hillary (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Little Flower

          When I first read this diary I was SO upset that I had to shut down my computer and come back later when I had calmed down.

          I decided that I would read the comments of others to see if it would help me be able to express my feelings about Hillary's unconscionable tactics in trying to get the votes from 2 unfair and unrepresentative elections counted.

          Well, here's what I gleaned from the comments, and I couldn't agree more...

          Hillary Rodham Clinton is...

          DECEPTIVE
          DISTORTING
          MISLEADING
          SLEAZY
          BLACKMAILING
          SHAMELESS
          SELF-SERVING
          SELF-RIGHTEOUS
          HYPOCRITICAL
          INSANE
          UNCOMPROMISING
          UNFAIR
          EMBARRASSING
          DISHONEST
          SELFISH
          VENGEFUL
          DESTRUCTIVE
          WHINING
          ILLEGITIMATE
          DESPICABLE
          UNTRUSTWORTHY
          LYING
          OUTRAGEOUS
          CONTEMPTIBLE
          BULLYING
          INEXCUSABLE
          REPREHENSIBLE
          GREEDY
          POWER-HUNGRY
          CRAVEN
          MANIACAL
          PATHETIC
          MEAN-SPIRITED
          TWISTED
          DISGRACEFUL
          REPUGNANT
          DESPERATE
          SPOILED
          DESPOTIC
          EGOTISTIC
          MANIPULATIVE
          UNTRUTHFUL
          POISONOUS
          APPALLING
          PATHOLOGICAL
          SICK
          UNHINGED
          VITRIOLIC
          NONSENSICAL
          UNETHICAL
          UNGRACEFUL
          ALIENATING
          OFFENSIVE
          DEMEANING
          ABSURD
          IRRESPONSIBLE
          UNCONSCIONABLE
          INSULTING
          EVIL
          NAUSEATING

          And(my conclusion):

          DEFINITELY NOT WORTHY TO OCCUPY ANY OFFICE IN THE GOVERNMENT OF A TRUE DEMOCRACY!

          IMPEACH HILLARY NOW!

          Visit www.soapbox4truth.org

          by keenekarl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:54:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Okay guys, want to LOSE in November? (0+ / 0-)

            ...then keep dissing ~50% of your fellow Dems or would-be Dems.

            I have to vote against McCain. I was an early fundraiser for BHO during his long-shot Senate run. I thought I saw a president back then. I have been nothing but disappointed in HRC since her hideous war vote in 2002..( the LAST time Dems had the Senate).

            That being said, I am EQUALLY disappointed and disgusted by the Senate preformance of our two leading Dems. Neither HRC or BHO showed an ounce of leadership in the Senate against the criminal Bush admin. Instead of doing their jobs, both decided to run for president. Instead of courage, they exhibited rank cowardice. Not even an attempt to fillibuster or rally their colleagues to fillibuster anything from the Alito nomination to continued funding of war crimes in Iraq. BHO in particular, with >72% of the vote in a state that swings either Repub or Dem in cycles, I expected him to spend some of that political capital where it could have mattered.

            For many things, it is already too late. Now it's a salvage job. Neither one really has what it takes to pull an FDR-type turnaround, but either could be persuaded if we stepped up (rather than eased off) of political activism once one of them is sworn in.

            Are people here really wanting to give the 1.5M+ people of Fla who bothered to vote in the Jan. primary the finger? That their vote was "fake"?

            BHO is campaigning now has vigorously as HRC, and for reasons no more virtuous nor less calculating than HRC.

            Its boiled down to one is prettier than the other to a certain segment of the Dem base. The tough primary has made better candidates out of both of them, and if there are any other stories about BHO (or new revelations in the Rezko case or the contributions from Exelon, etc.) I want them out by the summer - not revealed in October. A longer than expected primary might have been the reason his pastor became an issue - one that was dealt with skillfully and made BHO stronger.

            Why fear a battle all the way to the convention? If your candidate is of presidential quality, exposure should strengthen, not weaken, their candidacy. Despite the over-heated rhetoric on this site, the campaign isn't anywhere near "viscious" - not by a long shot. And treating the "black vote" the way every other damn group is considered in political calculations from "women" to "Catholics" to "Hispanics" etc., IS NOT BEING RACIST.

            BHO is being treated appropriately by the Clinton campaign: as a formidable opponent who should be given no quarter.. he can't expect an "affirmative action" pass in the primary... he wouldn't be given one in the fall.

    •  Hillary Clinton IS going to win (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      drmah, loveendures

      I am sorry to say this, But Hillary has won.
      She now will win by changing the rules. Which all her people are in the committee.

      Obama can't do a thing about it. (This is the famous Clintonian game)

      2008 will be remembered as election by Committee. Sorry folks it's over. Obama loses.

      ------------

      the Rules committee members.

      Here they are:

      Co-Chairs - no endorsement
      Alexis Herman (co-chair, Washington , D.C. )
      James Roosevelt, Jr. (co-chair, Massachusetts )

      Members - Clinton supporters (13)
      Hartina Flournay (DC)
      Donald Fowler (SC)
      Harold Ickes, Jr. (DC)
      Alice Huffman (CA)
      Ben Johnson (DC)
      Elaine Kamarck (MA)
      Eric Kleinfeld (DC)
      Mona Pasquil (CA)
      Mame Reiley (VA)
      Garry Shay (CA)
      Elizabeth Smith (DC)
      Michael Steed (MD)
      Jaime Gonzalez, Jr. (TX)

      Members - Obama supporters (8)
      Martha Fuller Clark (NH)
      Carol Khare Fowler (SC)
      Janice Griffin (MD)
      Thomas Hynes (IL)
      Allan Katz (FL)
      Sharon Stroschein (SD)
      Sarah Swisher (IA)
      Everett Ward (NC)

      Members - no known endorsement (7)
      Donna Brazille (DC)
      Mark Brewer (MI)
      Ralph Dawson (NY)
      Yvonne Gates ( NV)
      Alice Germond (DC) - DNC Secretary
      David McDonald (WA)
      Jerome Wiley Segovia (VA)

      •  Yeah but (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        keenekarl, foldingBicycle

        in the end they all want a candidate who will WIN.

        Barack Obama will be President, John Edwards will send George W Bush to The Hague

        by vanguardia on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:44:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Here is a statement by Hillary today... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        loveendures

        "It is well within the Democratic Party rules to take this stand. The rules clearly state that we can count all of these votes and seat all of these delegates, pledged and unpledged, if we so choose and the rules lay out a clear process for doing so."

        So changing the rules...is in the rules it seems.

        •  Hillary Threatens DNC of Dire Consequences (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Wife of Bath, loveendures, foufou

          Hillary threatens to obliterate the DNC. It's her Iran gambit.

          And I think this will work. (since the rules are vagues and has to be decided by bunch of cronies.)

          This is hard politics at play. Pure brute force applied to maintain power. Who needs election when you got friends in the committee.

          http://www.chron.com/...

          Then came the kicker. Her warning of the price that might be paid if the DNC does not seat the Florida and Michigan delegations according to her wishes:

          "If we fail to do so, I worry that we will pay not only a moral cost, but a political cost as well," she said. "We know the road to a Democratic White House runs right through Florida and Michigan. If we care about winning those states in November, we need to count your votes now. If Democrats send a message that we don't fully value your votes, we know Sen. McCain and the Republicans will be more than happy to have them. The Republicans will make a simple and compelling argument: why should Florida and Michigan voters trust the Democratic Party to look out for you when they won't even listen to you."

          I don’t know about you, but that sounds to me like Hillary is encouraging Democratic voters in Florida and Michigan to vote for John McCain if she isn’t handed the nomination. Watch your back Barack, it’s only just begun.

      •  Then, I'll take up street politics. (5+ / 0-)

        "...there is the United States of America." Obama

        by redtex on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:47:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't believe all of her supporters are (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wife of Bath

        as crazy as Hillary.  They have a political future to consider.  And I don't think anyone beyond the Clintons (and I'll give you Ickes) wants a civil war within the party leading up to Denver.

      •  wow, just two days ago you were saying (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RenoLMT

        something quite different.

        I for one say, let's play this over time and see how it will end.

        I am putting my Money on Obama that he will be able to win primary, hold the party, win GE. While whatever left of Hillary's credibility will be utterly destroyed. (plus debt and illegal contribution.)

        Hillary and crew should get the fight they are asking. Line up the lawyers and big guns. No use being nice.

        Sooooooooo, which is it?


        Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! - President Merkin Muffley

        by AlyoshaKaramazov on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:04:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Rigging the System Scheme (0+ / 0-)

          not after I see the name list. Obviously Hillary scheme is to make her people to stack the rule on her side.

          There is no "fair primary" anymore. This is about the people Bill installed modifying the rules ultimately crowning her.

          This is selection by committee, not election.

          The only answer is to bring it to the street. With baseball bat and brass knuckle. I hope they have a lot of anti riot gear.

      •  interesting, reminiscent of a court house in 2000 (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jrcjr

        yet, on closer inspection, even if Hillary gets her way, Barack still wins the pledged delegates count and the pledged delegates are not swinging chads. If Hillary isn't going away, why should Barack, if we think his chances will be a little tarnished going into the GE, what about hers?

    •  Last I heard, people who stand in solidarity with (4+ / 0-)

      the great movements for equality in this country don't condone race-baiting, dog-whistling comments on the part of their surrogates.

      "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

      by machopicasso on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:52:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Crazy Mama Cat sneaked her litter from the garage (0+ / 0-)

      into Hubby closet. I had the screen door proped open while I was cleaning the carpet, so Mama [Smoke-in-the-Face] took advantage of the situation. (Does that remind you of anyone you know?)

      Just like Hillary Smoke won't take NO for an answer.  She's moving in a taking over.

  •  She is utterly shameless (66+ / 0-)

    Just when you think you she can't get more ridiculous, she goes and invokes the memory of the great struggles of American history to serve her own political agenda, while committing the same acts of disenfranchisement that she is being all self-righteous about. Yes, we MUST give a voice to the voters of Michigan and Florida, except the ones who didn't vote for me in Michigan, and no voice for the voters of Iowa, Nevada, Maine, and Washington, because they don't factor into Hillary's convenient version of the "popular vote". She is a complete hypocrite, utterly shameless:

    http://www.thepersonalispolitical.co...

    •  She forgot (31+ / 0-)

      The guy standing in front of the tank in Tiannamen Square... it's just like that! And...Woodstock!

      Blind faith in bad leaders is not patriotism - Rocky Anderson

      by librarianman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:22:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why are YOU panicking? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eugenian, SamAndrews

      What do you think you're accomplishing by saying that because Florida thumbed its nose at the Sovereign Authority of the Democratic National Committee, that its primary should not be regarded as the voice of the people?

      Politics is a business, you've got to get ready to merge two former competing enterprises. You're acting as if the Delta pilots were thinking that because their name is going on Northwest planes, you won and the most junior Delta pilot should be given priority over experienced Northwest pilots.

      Do you think that you can win the election on your own?

      Overturn Bush v. Gore II, Impeach the R. A. T. S.

      by Judge Moonbox on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:41:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JoeW, Judge Moonbox

        Exactly! This --screw Florida-- gets NOWHERE. Democracy is not only the will of the majority - it's also the civil consideration to the interests and wishes of the minority! You're acting as if it's a good thing to steamroller your way to a victory. You'll end up like Richard III looking for a horse.

        •  no one (8+ / 0-)

          is steamrolling to victory by saying that the rules laid out by DNC (including McCauliffe and Ickes) in advance of any primaries, signed onto by each campaign, Known to the party bosses and announced in advance to all voters in both states, will apply.

          A fair compromise would enforce a penalty on the states and recognize that Obama's name wasn't on the ballot in Michigan.  It would recognize Clinton herself said they wouldn't count.

          Clinton isn't interested in you people who defend her, the other voters in Michigan, Florida, or god forbid, a caucus state.  She is interested in winning because it was her turn, Bill promised her, and its not fair somebody else won more delegates.

      •  The Florida "election" is invalid. (10+ / 0-)

        People stayed home because they were told that Florida had broken the rules, and its delegates wouldn't count.

        Now you want to change the rules. That's disenfranchisement.

        New election or no election. Those are the only fair options.

        Not a penny to Clinton. Not a single goddamned penny. She is a millionaire.

        by George Hier on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:52:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Isn't that what the Repubs wanted? (0+ / 0-)

          People stayed home because they were told that Florida had broken the rules, and its delegates wouldn't count.

          There was a referendum on taxes on the ballot. Did anyone stay home because they thought their votes on that issue wouldn't be counted? Unless there is a grassroots call for a boycott; when there's an election, I vote. Your excuse is like the Pensacola Republicans saying that because the 2000 race was called before they got to the polls, the Panhandle being on Central Time; they decided it wasn't important to say they're here.

          I suspect that there were enough swing voters in the Florida legislature that anticipated Murphy's Law going into effect, that if the didn't hope for this exact kind of screwup dividing the Democratic Party, they wouldn't have voted for it.

          Here's a rule for you: "No Running in the Hallways." Now the building is on fire; if you don't run, you die. Are you going to complain about the rules being changed?

          Overturn Bush v. Gore II, Impeach the R. A. T. S.

          by Judge Moonbox on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:09:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  no, the Repubs want you to stay home in the GE (0+ / 0-)

            Yet, if the Democratic primary has shown anything, it has brought us to the polls in droves and why should that be different in the GE, are a few sore losers on our side worth throwing the election over?

      •  the rules are there for a reason (9+ / 0-)

        If Florida and Michigan are allowed to have their delegates seated as-is there will be absolutely no way to endorse the rules next time around. Not to mention NEITHER primaries were fair, so their results don't represent fair votes. Don't try to pretend you care about the voice of the people when you know damn well Hillary doesn't care at all about the voice of the people, or even giving the people a choice. She wants votes, she wants power, that's it. I say split the votes 50/50 in both states, that way their votes cancel each other out, yet they still get seated. And 50/50 is a lot closer to what the votes would actually be if they had held fair elections. Hillary was against revotes for that very reason.

        If Hillary cares about bringing both sides together she wouldn't insist on FULL seating of the delegates from both primaries, and ZERO votes for Obama or Edwards in Michigan, and ZERO votes from Iowa, Nevada, Maine, and Washington. Don't play self-righteous with me, because Hillary's plan in no way represents what is fair, or what will bring the Party together. Hell, it doesn't even represent what she agreed to, she is a complete hypocrite. Period.

        •  I supported Edwards at the time. (0+ / 0-)

          If Florida and Michigan are allowed to have their delegates seated as-is there will be absolutely no way to endorse the rules next time around.

          Even if we amend the US Constitution to set up Regional Primaries?

          Don't try to pretend you care about the voice of the people when you know damn well Hillary doesn't care at all about the voice of the people,

          Please explain the logic of this. You seem to be saying that because I express an opinion that Hillary also expresses, I have the exact same motivation that she does; that because Hillary is a hypocrite, I must be a hypocrite.

          Even when John Edwards was still a viable candidate, I said that we the Democratic Party would be in bigger trouble if we fetishized the rules.

          I say split the votes 50/50 in both states, that way their votes cancel each other out, yet they still get seated. And 50/50 is a lot closer to what the votes would actually be if they had held fair elections.

          Have you extrapolated the votes from comparable precincts to arrive at that conclusion? Do you have the evidence now to refute the theory that Florida was closer to an idealized democracy because the influence of money and machinery was negated?

          Don't play self-righteous with me

          Why does it bother you? You're the one playing self-righteous with me.

          Overturn Bush v. Gore II, Impeach the R. A. T. S.

          by Judge Moonbox on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:19:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  umm... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Wife of Bath, notcaesar

            Yeah, sure, we can cook up a constitutional amendment and get it through both houses of congress and ratified by nearly all of the states in four years...sure, no problem. Do you have any idea what it takes to amend the US Constitution?? And then you have the issue of trying to enshrine our party system in a document that makes no mention of political parties, that'll be fun. Or, we could just enforce the rules that everyone agreed to.

            I don't need to extrapolate votes. It is simple logic. In every single state that Obama campaigns in his numbers go up, hers go down. Considering he hadn't even campaigned in Florida he was remarkably close to her, and there is absolutely no reason to believe he wouldn't gain favor if he campaigned in both states. Oh yeah, and polls back that up. There is enough information to indicate that Florida and Michigan taken together would yield a draw, more or less. One might end up a little ahead of the other, but I think it is safe to say 50/50 would be a lot closer than that bullshit results they have now.

            But hey, if you want to pretend the votes they held were fair and accurate representations of what the voters would have voted if they had been exposed to both sides, and if they hadn't known their vote was going to be meaningless, you go right ahead.

          •  The internal rules and procedures of... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            drag0n

            ... private political parties aren't under the purview of the US Constitution nor should they be.

            •  Why are Primaries paid for by the states? (0+ / 0-)

              The states have set rules for who can run in a primary election and who can take their name off the ballot. A  big part of this was that in the Progressive Era, reformers wanted to take the nominating process out of the smoke filled rooms of insiders. I can't recall reading of any party or candidate saying thanks but no thanks. If the states can interfere with "The internal rules and procedures of private political parties," why can't the Federal government? Now that I think about it, doesn't the Voting Rights Act of 1965 ban "Whites only" primaries, and isn't that the kind of "violation" you say shouldn't be under the federal purview?

              Overturn Bush v. Gore II, Impeach the R. A. T. S.

              by Judge Moonbox on Thu May 22, 2008 at 06:34:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Hillary new math - move Convention to December (0+ / 0-)

        just saying:)

    •  With Hillary, it's "silly season" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      loveendures

      all year 'round!


      Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! - President Merkin Muffley

      by AlyoshaKaramazov on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:06:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Can't be cute kittens! (6+ / 0-)

    The pooties are already campaigning for Obama!Cats for Obama - it Rocks!

    Impeachment...if it's still off the table, can we at least kick it around the floor a bit? AnnieJo

    by SallyCat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:20:30 PM PDT

  •  Another thing (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SallyCat, javelina, ZinZen, sherijr

    It's also like the Big Bang, Jesus, and cute kittens.

    Its also like an empty pie tin. I Hate Empty Pie Tins!

    DumpDoolittle is a statement. I am not affiliated with the blog of the same name

    by DumpDoolittle on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:20:38 PM PDT

  •  It's like buttah! (5+ / 0-)

    "And if I don't see ya, in a long, long while, I'll try to find you left of the dial" - Paul Westerberg

    by D Wreck on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:20:41 PM PDT

  •  This gal is an embarrassment. (46+ / 0-)

    As a woman of about Hilary's age, I've been frankly embarrassed for a while now. Ditto for Ferraro. They give womankind a bad name.

    "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

    by eyeswideopen on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:20:56 PM PDT

  •  she will have no legacy (24+ / 0-)

    of any legitimate nature, if she keeps this up

    it may already be too late

    one word

    intervention

  •  Anyone live in DC? (11+ / 0-)

    I'm thinking about protesting at the Clinton headquarters in Virginia. They're in Reston Corner. If anyone wants to join me, e-mail me at pleasehelpfreebarneythedog at gmail dot com

    What's madness but nobility of the soul at odds with circumstance?

    by slinkerwink on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:21:07 PM PDT

  •  It's also like that election Putin's stooge won. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    beltane, seattlegirl
  •  Second coming (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    beltane, teyigdhk, MariaWr, seattlegirl

    Let's cut right to the chase: Hillary is our savior and we just aren't seeing it

    Seriously, she is utterly shameless and I have not an ounce of respect left for her or any of her die hards!

  •  I'm starting to get really pissed off (22+ / 0-)

    at all the bullshit she is throwing.

    I'm all for helping draw her voters, but she sure is making it harder and harder for the party to rally around out nominee when she starts throwing these ridiculous analogies and arguments.

    Clinton ran a campaign that did not work out, that ran her almost 30 million into debt, that shows what a piss poor manager she is and she then has the audacity to come up with this crap!

  •  Crazy Clinton (20+ / 0-)

    She has finally gone over the edge. She is acting more and more like Ross Perot. She sees conspiracies everywhere.
    Soon she will claim that black helicopters have stalked her campaign.
    Just watch.

  •  "Easter Egg Pant-Suit Wearing" Nutjob! n/t (8+ / 0-)
  •  the more she talks about't the stupider she looks (6+ / 0-)

    ... the more she talks about it the stupider she looks ...

    if you're not outraged then you're not paying attention

    ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

    ~move sooner, not faster~
    ~for those with eyes to see, let them see~

    ~we study the old to understand the new~from one thing know ten thousand~to see things truly one must see what is in the light and what lies hidden in shadow~

    by ArthurPoet on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:23:08 PM PDT

  •  Webb for VP (5+ / 0-)

    I keep going back and forth on this. So many positives. Losing that Senate seat would definitely suck.

    •  Would the Governor (5+ / 0-)

      ...of VA be able to choose the replacement? The gov's a good Dem.

      "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

      by eyeswideopen on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:33:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No way!!! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dkosdan, seattlegirl

      We need him in the Senate.  Let him run for President in 8 years.  I think Richardson is the best VP choice.  

      "War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace." - Thomas Mann

      by Tom Paul on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:35:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I love Webb (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      seattlegirl

      I love the idea of Webb for Vp, It's just that I think we need him in the Sen more. I am leaning towards Strickland

    •  Please don't forget (0+ / 0-)

      that Webb was a Republican first and that, despite the face that he's been great on the war and the military, we really don't know where he stands on issues of concern for all Democrats. Where is he on abortion, poverty, the environment, etc.?

      I could look up his record, but I'm too lazy right now and my computer keeps tossing me off the Internets.

      Maybe someone else can help me out here.

      I still think Wes Clark, who's always been a Dem as far as I know is a better veep candidate.

      Then again, there are many, many Dems out there who would make good veep candidates.

      Not so much on the REpublican side...

      It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -- Thomas Jefferson

      by AtlantaJan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:10:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Here's my problem... (16+ / 0-)

    I'm having a PTSD flashback to 2000 when thins hordes of cardigan wearing middle aged zombie GOP operatives attacked Broward and Dade.  For some reason, a reason I'm still puzzling, the MSM gave that charade credence.  

    This seems utterly and incomprehensibly ridiculous.  I've even had two glasses of some indiscriminate cheap white wine and it seems ridiculous.  But so did the Attack of the GOP Ops.

    Maybe I'll feel better in the morning.  Or after another glass of wine.  But it's like the more people write about it and the more the bloviaters bloviate...the more corporeal this becomes.  

    "We're all working for the Pharaoh" - Richard Thompson

    by mayan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:23:26 PM PDT

  •  Its like nails on a chalkboard (7+ / 0-)
  •  Hillary was under sniper fire (5+ / 0-)

    and she had to duck and run to the waiting cars at the Miami airport.    

  •  It is pretty much the greatest modern struggle (8+ / 0-)

    of mankind.

    It's a neighborly day in this beautywood. Relentless!

    by ablington on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:23:52 PM PDT

  •  If Obama was in her shoes (0+ / 0-)

    and the states were North Carolina & Virginia, you'd all be saying it would be racist not to count the states, regardless.  I would agree with you too.

    By the way, don't forget, the superdelegates have no "rules" attached to them, or their votes or endorsements, they can do whatever they want up until the moment they vote.  I am absolutely positive they will nominate Obama, but keep that in mind.  

    If Bill was still in charge, this wouldn't all be happening...

    by letsbepragmatic on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:24:09 PM PDT

    •  i would bale on obama (12+ / 0-)

      if he went through these kinds of gyrations.

      All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

      by SeanF on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:27:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If Obama were this outrageous I would (15+ / 0-)

      worry about his sanity.

      Seriously.

    •  If Obama waas in her shoes... (21+ / 0-)

      HE WOULD HAVE CONCEDED BY NOW!!!

      Any SANE Politician would have in the name of party unity!  Doncha get it??!

      •  Just like Ted Kennedy in 1980? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elial, seattlegirl

        He fought all the way to the convention even though he was behind by 500+ delegates and had absolutely no chance.

        If Bill was still in charge, this wouldn't all be happening...

        by letsbepragmatic on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:31:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  how is this in any way predictive (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jpfdeuce, seattlegirl

          of what Obama would do? or how we "all" would react?

          •  Can't say what Obama will do, but (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elial

            I can speak for people here, based on my observation.  You will all support anything Obama says, carte blanche.  Example, the first weekend of the Rev. Wright fiasco, everyone here was saying how great an American the Rev was etc.   It took Obama disowning him for anyone to stop the Rev. Wright bandwagon.  

            If Bill was still in charge, this wouldn't all be happening...

            by letsbepragmatic on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:41:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I think the point is... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            letsbepragmatic

            ...if you think Ted Kennedy is a sane politician...then what Hillary is doing is really not that unreasonable.

            •  that's truly pathetic (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jpfdeuce, dkosdan, seattlegirl

              particularly in light of recent events

            •  possibly, but did Ted compare his struggle... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              oslo, jpfdeuce, dkosdan

              to slavery, the 2000 recount (or some equivalent event), the civil rights movement, etc.?

              Seriously, I don't know. If he described it in this way, I would like to hear about it.

              It's one thing if Hillary wants to continue because she thinks she somehow has a shot. I think everyone will simply ignore her and let be crazy in the corner. The problem here is that she's convinced a number of people that this is some sort of monumental struggle. And her failure will result in millions of people not voting for BHO, because they feel the election was "Stolen" from them. When the reality is, that its of her own doing.

              Ryan

              •  I don't think Hillary is comparing her struggle (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                letsbepragmatic

                to slavery...she is saying that the DNC's decision to disenfranchise voters in Florida and Michigan could come back to bite us in the ass in the general election.

                The comparisons to slavery, 2000 etc are based on the fact of disenfranchisement....I think it is a bit over the top to suggest that she thinks in every particular (e.g. the type of violence that ensued in Zimbabwe) the situations are identical. That seems to be what she is being ridiculed for here...when in fact she is making a sensible point, and pointing out that the rules allow the issue to be resolved. Why the demonization?

                •  So, regarding disenfranchisement: (0+ / 0-)

                  If she really cares about Florida and Michigan being disenfranchised, why the hell did she not speak against it when the DNC made its decision, way back in early 2007? Why did her key supporters at the DNC support the decision then, including Harold Ickes who is now one of the key advocates of counting Michigan's and Florida's "votes"? Why did she say time after time in Iowa, including in a radio interview, that Michigan's votes "won't count for anything"?

                  You do realize that voters in Florida and Michigan went into the polling booths with full knowledge that their votes wouldn't count, right? Well, once the game is done, you can't change the rules.

                  •  The game is not done... (0+ / 0-)

                    ..that's the whole point..she is not changing the rules...she has the right under the current rules to raise the issue with the appropriate committees and see what happens.

                    With respect to Iowa...why were the DNC's rules imposed on FL and MI...perhaps to appease Iowa and NHampshire? I am sure Hillary was also doing the same..call it being a politician.

                    •  ...yes, she has that right (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      elial, echatwa, TNThorpe

                      She can plead her case before the rules committee. I'm not as harsh as others. I think she can and should do that and abide by their decision.

                      But I'm not sure if you answered the question as to why she suddenly decided this was a civil rights issue only AFTER she "won" those states and realized that she needed their delegates? If she is such a strong supporter of the vote, why did she agree to "disenfranchise" these voters initially? I don't remember her speaking out against it? Why didn't she fight it then?  Why did she sign the agreement?

                      BTW- do you doubt for a second that HRC wouldn't be fighting the opposite stance tooth and nail if BHO won? After what we know of her, ther is no other answer than she would fight this.

                      Here's my view:

                      1. She didn't think she'd need to worry about those states. She was already the winner in her mind.
                      1. If for some reason, she needed FL and MI, she could always pull the crap she doing right now, and say its a voters' rights issue and what she agreed in writing is meaningless because its not for her to give away.

                      So she wanted it both ways. And she got it.

                      •  I don't disagree... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...with what you say about her stance..it would differ if it cost her the nomination to seat them...I think Obama would take a different view as well if he thought seating them would put him over the top...

                        The caveat I mentioned above is perhaps somewhat plausible...that being out front on the importance of seating FL and MI before Iowa and NH voted would alienate those constituencies...who somehow have acquired the right to lead the way.

                        The fact that FL and MI may not have delegates seated..or selected in a reasonable way that reflects the voters will...is startling to me, and I think a real problem with the way the DNC has functioned this year.  

                        And I believe I would be saying this...regardless of who benefited...because I am comfortable voting for either Obama or Clinton.

                    •  Yes, the game is done (0+ / 0-)

                      After a state has voted under the knowledge that their vote will not count and after the candidates have signed pledges to not campaign there, the game is OVER when it comes to counting that state. Any other explanation is intellectually dishonest.

                      •  That view leaves a lot of room... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...for state legislators to manipulate the process to the detriment of their citizens...for example a Republican controlled state could set a primary date ahead of the democratic party's deadlines...it's not intellectually dishonest to utilize the existing rules to address that issue.

                        •  Okay, here's what happened: (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          elial

                          The DNC gave Florida Democrats an opportunity to get a good chunk of delegates provided that they acted in "good faith" in trying their best to oppose the Republicans in their attempt to move up the primary before Super Tuesday. However, not only did the Florida Democrats not work hard to oppose the measure, they in fact supported it as a block (the Florida House Democrats voted for the measure by a 118-1 landslide), and to add insult to injury, the Florida House Democratic leader was openly making fun of the DNC on the floor.

                          As a consequence of these actions, the DNC voted to strip Florida of all of its delegates. Including among these votes were virtually all Hillary Clinton campaign staffers, including Harold Ickes. Hillary Clinton signed a pledge not to campaign in Florida and remained mum about Florida, while openly discounting Michigan primary at several appearances (in an October radio interview, she said "It's clear that the primary they are having in Michigan won't count for anything"). Even as the Michigan primary came and went by, she said nothing. However, she suddenly started complaining about Florida just 3 days before the primary there, after her poor showing in South Carolina.

                          So it's crystal clear that Hillary Clinton is being intellectually dishonest here. Of course, in light of how she has been campaigning, such a pattern of behavior from her is not surprising in the least bit.

                          •  I agree it is an opportunistic switch... (0+ / 0-)

                            ..however that the DNC would strip Florida citizens of representation because of the legislative action seems to me unwise.

                            Kind of a shortsighted let's shoot selves in the foot activity.

                            Not saying it would be determinative..but I would guess that the net effect would at best be neutral and more likely somewhat negative. Shouldn't they be implementing rules to encourage Democratic voters?

                          •  Well, that complaint should have made (0+ / 0-)

                            against the DNC when they made their decision. Once the election is over without any campaigning and under the knowledge that the vote would be symbolic, it is simply too late.

                          •  Well...I thought we were heading to agreement... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...but it is not true that it is too late...there are procedures in the rules through which the delegation could be seated...

                          •  By the way... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...I just noticed a rec'd diary arguing that Obama should seat the delegates given that he will win the nomination regardless...

                            If he does, that's what I would call another opportunistic switch...would you find that equally offensive as Hillary's?

                          •  No, that's a different situation (0+ / 0-)

                            since it does not alter the outcome of the race, and thus is just a nice gesture. The real problem kicks in when illegitimate primaries actually change the race's outcome.

                          •  you are... right I agree...n/t (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            echatwa
        •  You want a Repubican landslide? (5+ / 0-)

          Yes, let's let Hillary continue her little tantrum all the way to Denver so McCain can be the 44th president of the US. The Reagan Revolution lives!

          The weak in courage is strong in cunning-William Blake

          by beltane on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:38:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah...lesson learned, huh? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LordMike, jpfdeuce, Obama Amabo

          Idiot...

          Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.

          by Aqualad08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:39:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Last time I checked (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sistermoon, sherijr, seattlegirl

          You said "if Obama was in her shoes..."

          You never once said "Ted Kennedy's Shoes" or "If we had taken the DeLoren Back to 1980 and replaced Jimmy and Ted with Barack and Hillary..."

          Obama would have been pushed out of the race long ago if he had been in her shoes -- the one who lost all traction after February 5th.  Any politician who didn't come off entitled to the nomination would have.

          But the rules are changed cuz it's Hillary huh?

        •  AND THE DEMS LOST THAT NOVEMBER. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jpfdeuce, seattlegirl

          "The end of all education should surely be service to others." -César Chávez

          by Cardinal Tiger on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:47:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  How'd (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jpfdeuce, seattlegirl, scooter86

          that turn out for him?

          How'd that turn out for the party?

          •  I wonder why even bother asking that.. (0+ / 0-)

            We need to stop giving the Clintons and their most vociferous surrogates the benefit of the doubt that they actually care about the party.

            "An age is called Dark, not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it."- James Albert Michener

            by scooter86 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:18:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly...he'd be VP and happy to do so... (8+ / 0-)

        ...this is such crap...I am SICK of the layers of hypotheticals HRC supporters need for it to all work out their way...if, if, if...

        DEAL WITH THIS F***ING REALITY...not some magical dream world where Hillary stood up for MI anf FL AT THE BEGINING OF THIS PROCESS...she is USING them, not liberating them...

        Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.

        by Aqualad08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:38:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I doubt Hillary would have given him a Veep nod (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          oslo, Aqualad08, seattlegirl

          ...I still believe she already has Harold Ford Jr. penciled in for the role of her would-be Veep.  But if Obama HAD been offered the VP role?  he'd have taken it, surely.  

          But I am with you, this is hypothetical bullshit.  Woulda, coulda shoulda will nto change the here and now --  Hillary will not be the nominee.  Hillary is not trying to liberate the voters of FLA and Michigan.  Hillary is not exiting gracefully (as some people have believed she would).  The charade continues and it isn't good for the party at this point.  It's a joke.

      •  ....His feet would hurt (0+ / 0-)

        Just kidding.

        I'm as angry as everyone else, but I needed to make myself laugh.

    •  I'd lose all respect for him if he did (0+ / 0-)

      but, he's honorable, the Clintons aren't. And that's the hole they dug themselves.

      John McCain: A weak old man. | Hillary Clinton: A monstrous liar whose hubris and bigotry destroyed her reputation.

      by The Dead Man on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:16:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  My opinion (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      snoopydawg, BlueMama, loveendures, KCMoe

      If the shoes were reversed and Obama had lost 11 straight primaries in Feb he would have been  forced out a long time ago.

  •  I don't know what Florida is like... (7+ / 0-)

    But I know Hillary Clinton is like Ralph Nader.

    Sticking around for principle and ego and ruining her political future in the process -- especially if she plays the spoiler.

  •  HRC - Embellisher Extraordinaire ! (3+ / 0-)

    About as apt as the recent comments from the fringe about "appeasement."  

    To have had any credibility, her comments would have had to be made before she signed up to follow the rules. Very convenient amnesia.  Unfortunately, that depth of integrity is what we've had for the last 8 years and need desperately to remove.

    "The modern conservative is engaged in...the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." ~J.K. Galbraith

    by AllanTBG on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:24:26 PM PDT

  •  She is parody...... (17+ / 0-)

    She is a living breathing parody.  She's not real.  No comedian could ever ever make her more of a parody than she has made herself.

  •  And Poland! (9+ / 0-)

    Don't forget about Poland!

    America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. -- Abraham Lincoln

    by dad2jac on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:24:41 PM PDT

  •  kos, I'm more with John Aravosis right now (32+ / 0-)

    or Rachel Maddow.

    I don't find these shenanigans by Clinton funny.  She's going to declare Obama's priamary win illegitamite and cause us to lose in November and we'll have another 4 years of nightmare GOP policies just so that she can try again in 2012.

    Fuck that, I'm not laughing I'm pissed.

    "There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible. But in the end they always fall. Think of it. Always." -- Mahatma Gandhi

    by duha on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:24:45 PM PDT

  •  ugh. (17+ / 0-)

    Hillary Clinton is a nut case.  Anyone still supporting Hillary Clinton, being unable to see this for what it is, is a nut case.

    As a product of Tallahassee and Palm Beach County, I can tell you Hillary doesn't know a thing about Florida 2000.  She didn't give a damn when Bush stole that election, and fuck her for holding this up as being anything like it.

    "Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking." - John Maynard Keynes

    by Drew J Jones on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:24:59 PM PDT

    •  Ok, I'm a "nutcase" (0+ / 0-)

      But does anyone here even care that Obama, who everyone knows is going to win the nomination, lost KY by 35% last night?  It should have been a sobering event, but it's obvious you all don't care or want to write off another region of the country, since there will be a "new map" this year.  

      Just remember, for the most part the same people that voted in 2004 & elected GWB, will be voting again in 2008.  You should all be very concerned about How Obama can win this and Who he needs to bring together to do it.

      If Bill was still in charge, this wouldn't all be happening...

      by letsbepragmatic on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:37:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Kentucky will go red... (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        drmah, keenekarl, echatwa, NY Dem, seattlegirl

        Let them go. Why should we pander to a voting block that had the nerve to state they based their vote on race? We don't need Kentucky to win the White House and maybe having a President Obama will help open their eyes to the benefits of diversity which we enjoy in other, more open areas of America.

      •  Yes let's be pragmatic (11+ / 0-)

        Both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama can nail John McCain to the wall in a general election.  McCain's a loser.  But this is our chance to make our vote sing!  Hillary's lost the wave.  She had it -- but she's lost it, maybe not her fault, maybe she just lost sight of things like Gore did in 2000.  But she's become sad, damaged.  She looks pathetic and mean-spirited now.  Barack Obama is a phenomenon -- and I don't even like him that much politically -- but he's got the stuff.  I grew up in Appalachia and I know damn well what happened in Kentucky.  Those people need to be politically trounced. It will do them good to take a look around and see how they look to the rest of us. Just that is enough reason to support Obama!

      •  how does (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MariaWr, seattlegirl

        HRC's continual delegitimizing of Obama assist him now?

        How does it help Dems for GF to continually lie about Obama and other HRC hyper-partisans to run around threatening to start 527s dedicated to defeating Obama in the GE?

        When asked to provide an example of Obama's alleged misogyny, GF couldn't actually assert a single fact.

        Any Democrat who is now arguing that  he can't reach "hard-working Americans, white  Americans" rathe rthan arguing how an Obama presidency will improve things for American workers  is simply sabotaging the party.

        HRC lost and it's time to move on.

      •  Yes, many of those people will be voting again (0+ / 0-)

        but many of them will not be voting for McCain. You seem to think that voting block is solid for a Republican candidate. It's not. Hundreds of thousands, probably millions of those people voted for Bush because, as my old, black shuttle driver said despite all my protestations, "you don't vote against a sitting president in wartime."

        He was a nut and I have to believe that he would have realized the error of his ways after all that has happened.

        You cannot assume that the percentage of people who voted for Bush in 2004, many of whom are decidedly disillusioned with the direction the country has taken, will vote for McCain in 2008.

        Ain't gonna happen.
        Meanwhile, there's a raft of people who have either never voted before or who are first-time voters who are intrigued by Obama. I'll take my chances.

        It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -- Thomas Jefferson

        by AtlantaJan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:39:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Your point (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wife of Bath, ChemBob

        Im sorry with all do respect, even if the good lord jesus came down and asked them himself they were not going to vote for Obama in KT. And there is no way Kt is a swing state , it is red and is staying red. Do you actually think that if she was the nom she would carry KT in Nov?

      •  Well, on your part, aren't you a little concerned (0+ / 0-)

        that Hillary Clinton lost Georgia by 35 points, Washington by 37 points, Kansas by 48 points, Alaska by 49 points, Hawaii by 54 points, Idaho by 63 points, etc.?

        In fact, the only place where Obama is underperforming is Appalachia. Can you name a single other place in the country where Obama is badly underperforming and cannot do better than Kerry in?

    •  Add the Fact that she AGREED that they would not (5+ / 0-)

      COUNT!

      The people in FL are also pretending because they know that there is a tape of saying exactly that and now are acting like she is their champion. She did not care about FL and MI until she started losing.

      Why Obama won't attack HRC - LAZIO effect! She can play victim card easily.

      by PunditHater on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:38:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Boy, is there any doubt now (11+ / 0-)

    That she would say and/or do anything to get elected?

    Except during February 2008, in which her campaign took the month off - which cost her the being being elected part of the story....that and that pesky Iraq Invasion vote in 2002.

  •  We have to do something folks (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    teyigdhk, sherijr, loveendures, MariaWr

    I don't know what but we have to do something. After listening to Rachel's show today she is right. Hillary is going to take this to the convention. She has the right if she doesn't like what they say on May 31st to appeal at the convention.

    If the supers don't come out for Obama early we will lose to mccain.

    I know they want to wait till june 4th but it will be too late, by then she will appeal to the convention.

    •  She is just playing by the rules... (0+ / 0-)

      ...why is that so frightening? Why if Obama has won so convincingly is what she has to say or do such an issue for people here?

      •  Because she is a danger to society. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        loveendures
        •  Ok...that clears things up... (0+ / 0-)

          maybe she should be 'eliminated' then?

          •  What the hell (0+ / 0-)

            is the matter with you, saying things like this? You seem to be the only one discussing actual violence. I think thou doe'st protesteth too much. Project much do you?

            Life isn't a battle between good and evil, it's a battle between signal and noise.

            by ChemBob on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:26:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Actually that's not true... (0+ / 0-)

              ...I read threats of violence against Clinton quite regularly on this site..

              'Being a danger to society' usually means that 'the state' has a right to take forcible action...and as she noted in her previous comment...
              'we have to do something folks'  

              I am pointing out that there is something of a mob mentality in these comments...

              I'd be surprised if you really can't recognize that...

              Interesting story on the current campaign rhetoric in light of the history of violence or threats of violence against women..

              http://www.chicagotribune.com/...

      •  But that is just it (0+ / 0-)

         She is not playing by the rules by trying to win using Fl and Mich. I don't know what part of he wasn't even on the ballot in MI don't people understand. Why should she get the 46% of the vote that voted for no one. She stated that it didn't count let her stick to her own word. I wonder if the roles were reversed would she fight so hard to get those del seated?

        •  What I meant... (0+ / 0-)

          ...is that the rules allow her to take steps with the relevant committees to attempt to get the delegates seated.

          I do understand what you say about MI...I also believe she makes a good point that Dems are shooting themselves in the foot by handling this so poorly.

  •  If I were a Floridian (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SallyCat, ChemBob, keenekarl, sherijr

    I'd be spitting nails about now - but not because I'd been 'buked by the Democratic party.

    Hillary Clinton has lost all perspective, if not her mind. History will have a tricky time looking kindly on this episode.

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:25:26 PM PDT

  •  It's also just like the Holocaust (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SeanF, Inland, sherijr

    As long as Godwin's law is on holiday, why not just put it out there.

    Only Adolf Hitler would approve of this primary!

  •  it's like bringing coals to Newcastle (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    javelina, LordMike, teyigdhk

    even with the delegates from Florida and Michigan, as is, she's still so far behind in the race for earned delegates that she can't catch up. She'd still need to persuade a supermajority of the superdelegates to pick the loser of the electoral process as the nominee, and that's never happened before.

    She's not  stupid, she knows this isn't happening. So what's her angle? She's just trying to make sure as many of her supporters as possible won't vote for Obama in the general election out of the mistaken belief that he "stole" the nomination. That's the only thing that makes any sense to me.

  •  Jon Stewart's writers dont have to do anything (9+ / 0-)

    The material just writes itself. :)

  •  Doesn't this woman...as a sitting Senator... (9+ / 0-)

    have some responsibility towards contributing to a positive national decorum?

    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. --Thomas Paine

    by David Kroning on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:26:02 PM PDT

  •  It is also like (12+ / 0-)

    --storming the beaches at Normandy (not counting Florida is like appeasing Hitler)

    --correcting the injustices of rigged judging in Olympic figure skating

    --300 Spartans beating back the Persians

    --weight loss surgery

    And don't forget that it's like abolishing slavery!

  •  OK, listen (12+ / 0-)

    I'm not the biggest Obama fan, but I don't like Hillary Clinton. I mean I REALLY don't like Hillary Clinton. But even so, I still gave the benefit of the doubt for the longest time that there was some nebulous, honorable (to her mind) motivation somewhere in the back of her head that was leading her to remain in a race that she actually lost months ago.

    I can't bring myself to believe that anymore. To my mind, there is no longer any other possibility than that she really does intend to do maximum harm to Obama to sabotage his general election prospects as much as she is able in order to set herself up for another run.

    Hillary Clinton is a disgrace.

    "Don't Piss Down My Back And Tell Me It's Raining"

    by Helzapoppin on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:26:41 PM PDT

  •  Shrillary is obviously DESPERATE. Sorry, Hill. (6+ / 0-)

    YOU LOST.  It's OVER.  Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee whether you accept that or not.  Denial is so Rethuglican.

    Peace.

  •  According to Hillary... (6+ / 0-)

    the only gentlemanly thing to do is for Barack to concede.  It's madness.  Why bother having males if whenever one succeeds, it's evidence of sexism.  Let's just clone Hillary and Geraldine a billion times over and call it a day.

    Where's that piece of paper I had in my hand yesterday? -- Miranda Priestley

    by BA BarackUS on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:27:07 PM PDT

  •  We joke about this at our own risk (15+ / 0-)

     Hillary Clinton knows her arguments are all bullshit, but THAT'S NOT THE POINT. What she's trying to do is spray enough smoke into the atmosphere to get the DNC to change the rules in her favor on May 31st. And if it doesn't, she'll appeal and take it to the convention, where she'll destroy the party in pursuit of her agenda.

     Obama better have a counter-plan ready.

    "Le ciel est bleu, l'enfer est rouge."

    by Buzzer on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:27:11 PM PDT

    •  Yes, I agree. (5+ / 0-)

      While it is funny in a ridiculous way, it is also very very dangerous for the general election.  I have the sinking feeling that the seeds of division she sowing are taking root better than we might think.  

      Let Justice roll down like water, Righteousness like a flowing stream

      by John2Luke on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:31:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Where the hell are the party leaders and why (8+ / 0-)

        are they enabling this??????  Do we even have a Democracy, or are we headed for another Bush election scenario.

        surely the superdelegates must be aware that we as voters already feel massively jerked by nearly everything that's happened or not happened in the last eight years.

        This is just ridiculous and a real snear at supporters.

        Unless there are other Democrat corporate sock puppets who are more afraid of the wrath of their corporate constituencies than of consequences to the party.

        •  "Unless there are other Democrat corporate sock (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ChemBob

          Unless there are other Democrat corporate sock puppets who are more afraid of the wrath of their corporate constituencies than of consequences to the party.

          Yup.

        •  perhaps (0+ / 0-)

          It's time for each of us to get off the blog and mail letters to the outstanding supers and let them know how we feel about this!  If enough write from the 'white working class' that is supposedly not supporting Senator Obama they will listen /snark

          Reformed Independent Voter

          by MA Voter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:54:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Not going to happen (0+ / 0-)

      You overestimate her and Bill Clinton.  HC is not going to fuck with Pelosi and Reid and they have made themselves damn clear on the issue.

      •  Are these the same Pelosi and Reid... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        loveendures

          ...who buckle at the slightest raised eyebrow from a Republican or a Beltway pundit?

          Color me unconfident.

        "Le ciel est bleu, l'enfer est rouge."

        by Buzzer on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:14:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They are (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          loveendures

          But this is different.  It's party stuff and they are party insiders, obviously, since they are majority leaders, elected by their peers.  Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are not Joan d'Arc types.  They're hacks.  They're very good at being hacks, and in their houses, nobody fucks with them.  Have you noticed?  No Democratic maverics!  They'd squash them like bugs. It's sad, but true.

          •  No Dem mavericks? (0+ / 0-)

              Harry Reid continues to fawn over Joe Lieberman, who's not even a Democrat anymore. Of course, "maverick" is way too flattering a description for the warmongering swine that Joe is...

              I wish I could buy into what you're saying, but the preponderance of the evidence suggests otherwise, unfortunately...

            "Le ciel est bleu, l'enfer est rouge."

            by Buzzer on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:39:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ok so where's the evidence? (0+ / 0-)

              Who is the maveric lefty in the Democratic Party who challenges the authority of the congressional leadership?  I don't mean Lieberman!  He's irrelevant now, and no longer a Democrat. Can you name a fighter who bucks the leadership?  Russ Feingold?  Teddy Kennedy? Maxine Waters?  They are all team players in the end.  There is no opposition in Congress.  Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton do not have enough stature either.  They don't have the power to do what you're suggesting.

  •  Hillary: the new Gandhi (7+ / 0-)

    and MLK, Rosa Parks, Emma Goldman, Joe Hill. Hell, she's the new Isis and Amen Ra.

    Except that she's starting to act like that Mugabe guy in Zimbabwe. What was that she was saying about Zimbabwe?

    The weak in courage is strong in cunning-William Blake

    by beltane on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:27:37 PM PDT

  •  This is going to last a while .... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ChemBob, keenekarl, soms, loveendures, MA Voter

    isn't it?  

    I was sure Sen. Clinton was done two weeks ago ... and now it appears she really is intent on trying to win at all costs, even if it means shredding the Democratic party.  Obama is strong, but racism is stronger ... and it appears to play a serious role in why her some of her supporters won't support Obama in the General.

    Seeing the percentage of her supporters that claim they won't support Obama if (when) he wins the nomination is truly stunning.   Are they unable to see that McCain is their worst enemy?  On that front, I'm loving that YouTube is presenting McCain with a serious challenge in that he can't escape his own idiocy...

    But the question remains: can we Democrats escape ours?  Check out the site www.norift.com - attempting to get Democrats of all shades to pledge to support our eventual nominee ... also centrally locates some good McCain clips.

    PS: The FLESH WOUND clip is classic!

  •  The Florida primary is a plum in perfume (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms, Julia C, eXtina

    served in a man's hat.

    The Florida primary is an impertinent little w(h)ine, with a hint of indefinite integral and a mauve finish.

    The Florida primary is the sound of one hand clapping.

  •  Clinton's campaign has jumped the shark. (6+ / 0-)

    Actually, it jumped the shark a few weeks ago, now she's circling back around for a second attempt!

    It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument. - William G. McAdoo (-3.38, -3.38)

    by awnm on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:27:57 PM PDT

  •  It's like SEX with an INFLATABLE doll! (6+ / 0-)

    It's FUN, but doesn't really count!

    Not that I've tried. . .

    No, HONEST!

  •  Given that John McCain is like Christ, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms, loveendures

    this fits in with the wildly inaccurate hyperbole that seems to be all the rage this week.

    Let's not forget that this is the person who brought peace to Northern Ireland, dodged sniper fire in Bosnia, and really wanted to do something about Rwanda.

  •  Hillary is starting to resemble a spoiled brat (5+ / 0-)
    I wish she would find another country to bug

    Free the Pokemon!

    by Krush on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:31:00 PM PDT

  •  I think if this is being done as some sort of (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms

    " see my power; bargain to shut me up or call of my attack constituency" ploy, the ultimate stopper is to agree to her conditions if, and ONLY if, she agrees to be as transparent as Obama and provide detailed records of donors and contributors to her and Bill's various political and personal finanacial dealing, library, etc.

    Obama should be able to expect candor and transparency from a VP or other appointee, and this information should be made public before any agreements should be made, since the campaign wants to insure that the whatever office/policy she is endorsing or seeking, be free of hidden corporate influence.

    that would pretty effectively END and push for that.

    •  Excellent plan (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      soms

      Offer her the VP slot (publicly) on condition of complete disclosure.

      She'll never agree to that, and even if she agrees to it, so much shit will surfaces that she has to pull out before the convention.

      Americans now spend a higher percentage of their income on basics like food and energy than at any time since recordkeeping started in the 1960s.

      by Calouste on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:38:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  DisAgree!!! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MA Voter

        This has become personal for her. If Billary goes down due to Obama, she is willing to take him down with her and we will be left with McSame.

        I think Obama, should offer the VP Slot to anyone who might be appealing to "her" people and leave her in the dust where she belongs.

        The DEMS had a chance of sweeping the country, of changing the color of the map, and she took that opportunity away from the DEMS for her own personal gain

        Why Obama won't attack HRC - LAZIO effect! She can play victim card easily.

        by PunditHater on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:54:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Dixiecrat all over again (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms

    disgusting!  

  •  Off topic, but related (6+ / 0-)

    People should take a good long look at Michigan and ask a question:

    If there had been a legitimate primary in the state, does anyone believe that Clinton would've won the primary by double digits or at all? Seriously, there's every reason to believe that Obama would've won the Michigan primary if he'd been able to compete there.

  •  Debasing real victims of despotism (8+ / 0-)

    Go on Hillary, tell Nelson Mandela that being locked up in Pretoria is right up there with not counting FL's outlaw primary.  I'm sure he'll understand.

    By all means, compare the struggle to have your Soviet-style MI win counted as Martin Luther King's struggle to vote in his native state without being menaced by crooked police and a racist public.  I'm sure he'd understand.

    Tell Morgan Tsvangirai that your noble efforts to count primaries that broke DNC rules, rules you agreed to until you suddenly didn't, are right up there with risking his life to bring Democracy to Mugabe's private fiefdom.  I'm sure he'll understand.

    All your vote are belong to us.

    by Harkov311 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:32:31 PM PDT

  •  Clinton's arguments are like (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    byteb, soms

    straw floating in front of a drowning person.

    John McCain '08 - Hope Less!

    by kitebro on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:32:36 PM PDT

  •  Clinton supporters (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NewJerz, dkosdan, soms, fedupcitizen

    All of this just adds to her supporters' ideas that they are justified in sitting out the general election, or voting for McCain over Obama.

    A local talk show host who goes out of his way to be fair, talks like he understands why Hillary's supporters are so angry. He agrees there has been sexism at play, and well I don't recall what all.

    But, to me he is giving Hillary supporters permission or validating their stance that they've been abused and that it's understandable that they won't vote for Barack.

    This worries me.

    •  Highly inflated egos (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      loveendures
    •  The Demonization of Hillary Clinton (0+ / 0-)

      take a look at this if you want to consider whether misogyny has played a role in this nomination process..

      I have seen similar sentiments as those described in the article here at DKos quite frequently.

      for example:

      http://www.chicagotribune.com/...

      Consider....

      the appalling preponderance of violent, death-infused imagery in conversations about Clinton, smuggled into otherwise ordinary political discourse like a knife taped on the bottom of a cake plate: On CNN, pundit Alex Castellanos said democrats must realize that "it's time to take the family dog to the vet." Matthews' MSNBC colleague Keith Olbermann expressed the hope that "somebody will take her into a room—and only he comes out." CNN's Jack Cafferty gleefully floated the specter of Clinton being run over by a flatbed truck. A recent Tribune editorial compared Clinton to a euthanized Kentucky Derby contender."

      •  i cannot think of any other woman (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NY Dem

        in politics that excites this kind of vitriol.....it is about her...not about being a woman....any more than Cheney, Darth Vader, stirs dread and hatred because he is a man.

        •  well...the point of the article... (0+ / 0-)

          ..is that it is a rhetorical tool that has been used on women regularly and for quite some time.

          If there were talks of lynching Obama on talk left or another Democratic site...I think that would be horrendous...here just today I have seen reference to 'stoning' her...'going nuclear' on her etc.

          I agree that she has been uniquely vilified as a woman politician...but she is also in a unique position as a woman politician...the first with a reasonable chance (at least earlier in the campaign) to win the presidency...

          and so the media started right in...or resumed what they had started some time ago..

          opposed to her policies and tactics...ok I am not a fan of all of hers in either area..but there is something in the rhetoric that goes well beyond that disagreement.

    •  Since Hillary supporters arn't bailing her out (0+ / 0-)

      here is how the rest can get Hillary out of debt, by setting up a dunk tank at the Convention and charging admission, have it resemble a large Kentucky Fried Chicken bucket, but she doesn't have to be in a bathing suit, I was thinking of Terry McAuliffe on the top of that "ticket".

      It falls on Hillary's non-supporters to clean up the mess, she and her supporters are unwilling to take responsibility for.

  •  Arrrggggghh!!!! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    limulus, Pirate Smile, soms, fedupcitizen

    Arrrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!

    My head hurts. Are we there yet?

    McCain - lost bearings, lost moorings. Won't somebody please buy the poor man a compass and an anchor so he can sail off into the sunset?

    by edg on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:33:21 PM PDT

  •  One more: Its like kissing your sister (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms
  •  Wait wait wait (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms

    If

    It's also like the Big Bang, Jesus, and cute kittens.

    And John McCain is like Jesus.... I'm getting confused.

  •  Buuut Kos... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    javelina, Harkov311, soms

    You're ruining her argument to the SD that she's does better in elections without campaigning or ones without her opponent on the ballot.. stop it now... ; )

    "Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes." Oscar Wilde- GO Cubs!

    by ebbinflo on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:35:24 PM PDT

  •  How can anyone engaging in such tactics expect to (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Harkov311, keenekarl, soms, foldingBicycle

    be taken seriously, as a candidate, let alone a president? Doesn't this show what a horrible president she would be? Come on!

  •  I chuckle. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    redtex, soms

    It feels good to come here and be treated to a smile and a laugh on a day when I could use one.

    Thank you, Markos, for your sharing with us your ability to cut through to the essence with humor.

    And as things fell apart
    Nobody paid much attention
    -- Talking Heads, (Nothing But) Flowers

    by wanderindiana on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:36:16 PM PDT

  •  Do you remember this? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms

    From the Exorcist:

    "Oh please mommy make it stop!  It's burning, it's burning please mommy!"

  •  It's like Stalingrad (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    keenekarl, dkosdan, soms, NY Dem

    No, it's like Antietem.

    No, it's like Kent State.

    No, it's like the Lusitania.

    No, it's like the sack of Rome.

    No, it's like the destruction of Alderon in Star Wars IV.

    No, it's like the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre (La Reign Hillary?).

    No, actually, it's like a thousand white ponies lost in the wilderness, looking for someone to lead them to safety amid beautiful green meadows with lollipops and marshmallows.

    Folks, we have past the surreal stage. This is uncharted territory. Beware, all ye who enter!

    "I will vote for the Democratic candidate for president--period." --Me

    by kovie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:37:05 PM PDT

  •  I feel like she is holding us all hostage in one (12+ / 0-)

    of those crazy movies and we need someone like Harrison Ford or Angelina Jolie or both to come in and rescue us.  

    Also, I have two young girls and I've come to believe that Hillary Clinton is the last person I want them to have as a role model.  Making pledges and then ignoring them and cherry picking facts to support the most self-serving arguments.

    Middle Aged White Jewish Mom for Obama

    by nycmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:38:21 PM PDT

  •  Charles Rangel & Maxine Waters need to pull (12+ / 0-)

    Hillary to the woodshed .....

    No more talking...no more graciousness...DONE

    STOP the insults, manipulation and rewriting of the rules...

    She offends outright and without hesitation our
    struggle and  it will be the sweetest speech when Barak Obama  addresses the Democratic convention on the anniversary of the I Have a Dream speech by MLK.She will applaud through a clenched smile.

    She sells our history short and cheap for her own ambition and political gain...

    She is not qualified to be a Supreme Court Justice because she has no appreciation for the law, history or facts.  She will be lucky if she can get re-elected NY Senator after this display on top of her pile of lies.

    She is beneath contempt.

    I am not interested in power for power's sake, but I'm interested in power that is moral, that is right and that is good.

    MLK

    The Truth is nonpartisan!

    by fedupcitizen on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:38:41 PM PDT

  •  Markos, it must suck being on your side of this (0+ / 0-)

    Don't count the votes I Say!  How pathetic...keep telling yourself 2 million people didn't vote...I know, no one campaigned there...HEL-LO-O, it is the 21st Century...you know that thing called the i-n-t-e-r-n-e-t and the t-v-, but maybe you iknew about those things.

    The HBO RECOUNT movie should help your cause..snark

  •  This Stuff is Poison. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pirate Smile, NY Dem, fedupcitizen

    And Clinton knows it.

  •  Now that she has lost the nomination, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    loveendures

    she won't have the chance to destroy the party from within like her husband did, like joe lieberman has tried to do. So, to her it's a matter of how much damage she can do to the party before she is exorcised.

    George Bush's war isn't a war about winning. George Bush's war is a war about staying. Barack Obama.

    by tarheelblue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:40:08 PM PDT

  •  It's like that bad man messing with Anakin n/t (0+ / 0-)
  •  Good googly moogly, Markos, why did you have to (7+ / 0-)

    post that Birmingham photo? It is too much of a flashback for me.

    I remember almost to the day (the Summer of 1963) that it happened at 4th Avenue between 18th and 19th streets in black Downtown Birmingham, the only place where we were allowed to do business unfettered.  That was in front of the AG Gaston building where Booker T Washington Insurance, among other businesses owned by AG Gaston, was located. It was just across the street from Kelly Ingram Park which is across the street from 16th Street Baptist Church.  I remember it as if it was just yesterday; I was 9 years old at the time.  

    Now please don't post the photo of Bull Connor siccing the dogs on my people.

    Her highness has no shame at all; she is a scourge.  She won't shut up so somebody needs to shut down her campaign right now, and this is from one who has advocated her finishing out the primary season before decamping. But no more.

    She's absolutely appalling.

    We need to internalize this idea of excellence. Not many folks spend a lot of time trying to be excellent. ~ Sen. Barack Obama

    by 99 Percent Pure on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:41:12 PM PDT

    •  My heart aches (4+ / 0-)

      that she would use such an awful moment in our history for her own political gain.  Despicable.  Thank you for sharing with your personal account.  For the rest of us, this should aptly illustrate to what depths she has taken this election.

      Gandhi: "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. "

      by FoxfireTX on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:30:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm glad Markos posted the photo... (0+ / 0-)

      In rememberance of people who were hurt and killed for civil rights.  HRC has lost her mind; comparing her so-called struggle with the civil rights movement it a bitch slap of the face to all people who lost their lives for it!. Power has blinded her; she goes don't give a damn anymore.

      Media and DNC are handling her with kid gloves because she so fragile...how is she helping women all across the country?  If she is this tempermental, do you think she's not going to act like this IF she becomes President?  Having a temper tantrum if the world doesn't give her what she wants? She wants everyone treat her like that diva she thinks she is. I do not know if I could go to the polls and vote for her in November IF she gets the nominee...

      You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.---Malcolm X

      by Queenie68 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:12:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Is she nuts? (6+ / 0-)

    The right to vote is meaningless unless all parties comply with the applicable election laws. Imagine the ensuing chaos if a State decided it will hold its general election on a day different than the one scheduled by law.

    FL and MI violated the applicable election law with impunity. Theye were properly penalized. Everyone knew in advance what these penalties were.

    Clinton is nuts and she thinks the rest of us are nuttier, which we seem to be by giving her a platform ro spew her hubris and hooey.

  •  Call It Fake But... (0+ / 0-)

    But you must not disenfranchise the voters. The Dems were caught between Iraq and Ahardplace. If they said no to the GOP majority they wouldn't have got the paper trail they needed. And we haven't forgot 2000 have we?

    Senator Obama sent television ads into the state. He remained on the ticket. If you don't like the voting results then clamour for a recount - you do not repeat do not disenfranchise all the Florida voters.

    Not unless you're a fascist. That is what fascists do: they ignore the will of the people. They push their chosen one through against the will of the people. And then beseech the people to forgive them and vote for them with noted calamities as a result.

    Senator Obama blocked negotiations for a new vote in Florida. He must accept the consequences. So must you. For sooner or later their votes - their will - is going to be heard. Better now than later. All his adolescent vitriol is doing is further alienating those voters. Come clean now - make a deal now for a new vote - and you can win them.

    This has to be handled in a more adult and less fanatic manner than you seem to be proposing.

  •  the biggest insult of all (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    byteb, keenekarl, dkosdan, NY Dem

    is comparing this cycle to Florida 2000

    how dare she?

    that really takes a complete lack of any ethics whatsoever

    Andrew Sullivan has apparently been right all along

    •  legitimizing the confederacy of FL and MI (0+ / 0-)

      by 2012, they can join a different party or play nice again. Legitimizing these counterfeit elections will have downwind consequences of great magnitude. Anyone up for appeasing the Clintons?

  •  Kos, I don't think you're being fair. (0+ / 0-)

    Afterall, some elderly voters may have gotten a sunburn on the way to the (meaningless) polls :).  Oh, the humanity!

  •  It's like the struggles of the SS Minnow crew n/t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    limulus, refinish69, Julia C
  •  New here, but just a thought. (0+ / 0-)

    When this crazy ride is over, maybe Hillary Clinton can use her political capital to reform the primary process.

    The best way for this to happen is to start framing her not as a delusional candidate who is willing to say anything, but as someone who can see flaws in the current system.

    While her hyperboles are almost comical and fodder for the likes of SNL and YouTube remixes, a graceful exit for her would be a voting reformer.

    With such a public platform as this community has built here, you could help make that happen.

    Everyone would win, especially the American people.

    •  Nice sentiment, wrong candidate (3+ / 0-)

      HC is not the person who's going to lead that charge.  She's an operator, trench fighter. She only talks the talk of reform to get votes of hand-wringing liberals.  

      •  But even an operator cares for the legacy. (0+ / 0-)

        One thing I have seen in my travels is that politicians are the most of want for statues in their honor, save generals of great wars.

        What greater legacy than to ensure a true democratic process instead of the quasi-republic system currently used?

        Maybe that will make her coin worthy, which I am sure even the most base trench fighter secretly craves.

        And the greatest coinage of the Americas is the democratic method.

        •  You're right (2+ / 0-)

          But she doesn't know how.  She's lost her way.  I've worked in Democratic Party politics for many years.  People lose sight of reality.  It's sad, and it's what's happened here . . . Do you know that the last truly honourable person to be nominated for the presidency in America was in 1972?  No.  The system is too broken to be fixed through reform now.  Hillary Clinton is a victim of it.  I met her when she worked for McGovern in 1972 and she was a completely different person. She's a real American -- damaged beyond repair.

          •  How right you are. (0+ / 0-)

            One of the pressing issues in this country is how Washington has become a "they", when in fact, they are a "we".

            It is We, in Washington, for the social contract is that of and by the people.

            Reform is nothing more than a correction of abuses, a revolution is a transfer of power.

            We need a revolution to return power to the people.

            Luckily, that is still possible through the ballot box, America's greatest invention.

            The will of the people need to fill said box, or the republic is lost.

            So tell me old soldier of the Democratic Party, how do we form our lines to out flank the scoundrels in Washington, D.C.?

            And so you know, I know of this McGovern, and his fall by the way of one Eagleton.

            •  Your right again! (0+ / 0-)

              Though I don't know if Al Gore would agree with you about the power of the ballot box.  And I have a hard time believing in being "we" after having canvassed so much and heard so much nonsense from my fellow citizens . . .  We are our own worst enemy I fear.  But yes, theoretically, it's all there for us. We just have to commit ourselves to convincing our neighbors and then turn the government around.  That's how the history books tell it.  The radical right has done it . . .

    •  When this is over... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      keenekarl, NY Dem, MA Voter

      ... she may no longer have any political capital.

      In less than a year, she's managed to alienate African American voters, create racial and gender divides within the party, and cynically used racism to her advantage.

      Her supporters have threatened and insulted the Speaker of the House, Democratic party elders, and anyone else who has the nerve to support Barack Obama.

      Hillary Clinton has no interest in reform. She is interested only in herself and her own selfish aims.

      I think that the party would be more than happy to see her and Bill ride off into the sunset.

      "I run the kitchen, so I can stand the heat" - Nikki Giovanni

      by sistermoon on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:06:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  True or false? (0+ / 0-)

    "It is well within the Democratic Party rules to take this stand[i.e. seat MI and FL].  The rules clearly state that we can count all of these votes and seat all of these delegates, pledged and unpledged, if we so choose and the rules lay out a clear process for doing so."

    •  Listen you silly illogical person (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dkosdan

      I live in Michigan. I would have voted for Edwards or Obama. Neither of them were on the ballot. I didn't vote because we were told repeatedly that our votes would NOT count for anything! You tell me how it is fair that I be "represented" in the manner that you are promoting. It is impossible!

      Life isn't a battle between good and evil, it's a battle between signal and noise.

      by ChemBob on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:48:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  More arguments that will reach the SD's and (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    keenekarl, foldingBicycle

    move them even further to Obama. They hate this shiznit. They've already been alienated by her before. HRC is on think ice and my guess is that this, coming on the heals of the "hard working white" people comments, and "taking it all the way to the convention" mentality will just move them to act. I think they've been afraid to alienate her voters, to be respectful, but she's just pushing it further and further and further. Give her an inch and she will take a hundred miles. There is no doubt in my mind that she is and has been trying to actively steal this nomination. She.just.doesn't.care. HRC doesn't believe her own statements. She might as well be Ann Coulter.

  •  Thanks Kos (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NY Dem

    The Updates you added make the point very very well. Clinton's comments are so offensive as to prompt outrage from a person like me with little outrage left at her Rovian, Republican-style campaign.

    Where I once thought I could happily vote for her in a general election, I would seriously hold my nose in doing so at this point. It would feel a lot like voting for John McCain against George Bush (Hillary being McCain and McCain being Bush, ironically).

    "A democracy is more than a form of government; it is primarily a mode of associated living, of conjoint communicated experience" -John Dewey

    by mikeplugh on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:45:58 PM PDT

  •  she needs to be stopped (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    byteb, Sopiane, foldingBicycle

    cause she won't do it herself

    clearly Rachel Maddow was right

    Nancy Pelosi + Al Gore + Jimmy Carter + Harry Reid + Howard Dean + all similar.....

    DO SOMETHING!!!!!

  •  HRC is holding the Democratic Party hostage. n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    byteb

    How is it possible for one person to hold the Democratic Party hostage?  Only the Democrats could allow this to happen.  Talk about a self-inflicted wound.   This is madness.

  •  lets keep our heads (0+ / 0-)

    I am sure that there are few Hillary supporters full of vitriol- just like I am sure that there are few Obama supporters who would be just as angry if Hillary was leading. I think the people who blog are not representational of the community at large. So lets chill.

    I am sure that the vast majority of Hillary supporters  are reasonable Democrats who once they have gotten over their disappointment will come to same realization that those who support Obama have i.e. the country can't take four more years of Bush in guise of MCCain.

    The best we can do is stop commenting on Hillary- she is beyond reason. I think if we stop commenting I think her reasonable supporters themselves will see the absurdity of her positions for themselves.

    •  Look At their leader (0+ / 0-)

      I am sure that the vast majority of Hillary supporters  are reasonable Democrats who once they have gotten over their disappointment will come to same realization that those who support Obama have i.e. the country can't take four more years of Bush in guise of MCCain.

      If the Hillary people cared about Dem party, they would not be threatening to not vote. They are following a woman who voted for the war. Who said their votes do not count, who will not take responsibility for anything:  

      Why Obama won't attack HRC - LAZIO effect! She can play victim card easily.

      by PunditHater on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:01:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is disgusting (5+ / 0-)

    and bothers me so fucking much on how she gets away with this.

  •  Can't We Punish... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oslo, dkosdan

    The Florida Republican Legislature.  They changed State law to (purposefully) break the Dem. party rules and deprive Florida primary voters a say in the process.  Now they are sitting back and laughing at the kaos they created.

    Remember, this is the same Republican legislature that before the SCOTUS ruling in 2000, was voting on legislation to send a Bush slate of Electors to the Electoral College in case the recount of the votes indicated that the voters actually selected the Gore slate of Electors.

    These guys deserve some punishment!

    "Some men see things as they are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that never were and ask, 'Why not?"

    by Doctor Who on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:49:19 PM PDT

  •  HRC: What A LOAD (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oslo

    poor, desperate Hillary.

    now that it's clear she's NOT going to win the nomination, it's time to throw any old shit against the wall and see if anything sticks.

    the suffragette, "Hey, I'm a Victim" bullcrap really takes the cake.

    "Cigna cannot decide who is going to live and who is going to die." -- Nataline's mother

    by Superpole on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:49:20 PM PDT

  •  Shameless Hillary (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oslo, ChemBob, keenekarl, lsd saint, NY Dem

    per andrew sullivan:http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/05/shameless-1.html#more

    The Clintons know no respect for rules or propriety or restraint in the pursuit of power. But Clinton's latest speech in Florida should cause even veteran Clinton-hating jaws to drop some more:

    " Now, I know that Senator Obama chose to remove his name from the ballot in Michigan, and that was his right. But his choice does not negate the votes of all those who turned out to cast their ballots, and we should not let our process rob them and all of you of your voices. To do so would undermine the very purpose of the nominating process. To ensure that as many Democrats as possible can cast their votes. To ensure that the party selects a nominee who truly represents the will of the voters and to ensure that the Democrats take back the White House to rebuild America.

    Now, I’ve heard some say that counting Florida and Michigan would be changing the rules.

    I say that not counting Florida and Michigan is changing a central governing rule of this country - that whenever we can understand the clear intent of the voters, their votes should be counted. I remember very well back in 2000, there were those who argued that people's votes should be discounted over technicalities. For the people of Florida who voted in this primary, the notion of discounting their votes sounds way too much of the same."

    How do you respond to a sociopath like this? She agreed that Michigan and Florida should be punished for moving up their primaries. Obama took his name off the ballot in deference to their agreement and the rules of the party. That he should now be punished for playing by the rules and she should be rewarded for skirting them is unconscionable.

    I think she has now made it very important that Obama not ask her to be the veep. The way she is losing is so ugly, so feckless, so riddled with narcissism and pathology that this kind of person should never be a heartbeat away from the presidency.

  •  Obama should lay off the blandishments, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oslo, ChemBob

    stop complimenting the person who is rubbing mud on him --- can't be a doormat --- and say, clearly and forcefully, that he will see to it that FL and MI are fairly represented at the convention.  More details aren't needed; there's a process in place.

    But he needs to address the issue.

  •  And yet... (8+ / 0-)

    She has NO problem repeatedly (and falsely) claiming that she is ahead in the popular vote...FOUR ENTIRE STATES are not included in the "popular vote" because they are caucus states that don't report a vote count.  WHY is she so willing to completely disenfranchise those 4 states???  But somehow (because they might help her in her argument for the superdelegates to overturn the outcome of the elections)her fight to seat Michigan and Florida delegates are now as important as the civil rights movement???

    Truly astonishing...and pathetic...The superdelegates need to end this NOW...Screw her feelings and giving her time or her space or whatever their excuse for waiting is.  She went completely over the edge today and DESERVES to be embarassed and pushed out!!!

  •  Some are saying that Hillary may lose PR... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    keenekarl

    ...'cos of all her racist talk recently!

    The United States of America--the only country in the world where being educated and cultured actually *lowers* your social and political standing.

    by LordMike on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:55:38 PM PDT

  •  Fake? (0+ / 0-)

    Nearly 2 million Florida Democrats voted. And they voted with all sorts of information about the candidates, the same as all of us get every day (which is to say, not nearly enough, but that's another matter). They did lack in-person meetings, but how many of those 2 million were going to attend a campaign rally anyway? They did lack a barrage of sound-bite commercials, which for my money is to the good, since it allows them to make judgments uninfluenced by advertising slogans. And the did lack a GOTV effort, which means that the people who felt strongly (a lot of them, evidently) got to the polling place, and those who would have had to be dragged by the candidates with enough money to pay for GOTV didn't.

    All in all I'd say they had arguably a fairer election than most of the rest of us; nothing "fake" about it.

    Your thinly-veiled disgust with voters who don't share your opinions is showing, I'm afraid.

    Eli Stephens
    Left I on the News

    Waiting for the deadlocked Democratic convention to turn to...Kucinich!

    by elishastephens on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:56:53 PM PDT

    •  Sorry But You Are Wrong (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      byteb, ChemBob, dkosdan, mikeplugh, TNThorpe

      One big problem with counting the vote in FL is that voters were told in advance that the election would not count towards the nomination.  Based on that information many voters did not participate.

      To count the election now would only disenfranchise those many voters.  All anyone has to do find some voters who did not vote due to the assumption that the vote would not count.

      Just because there was an election does not mean it was fair or should count.  There have been many elections in Cuba, Russia, etc.

      •  How many? (0+ / 0-)

        How many voters did not participate? Where's your data? What's the source of that claim?

        Considering that there was a record turnout, it's a highly dubious one at best.

        Eli Stephens
        Left I on the News

        Waiting for the deadlocked Democratic convention to turn to...Kucinich!

        by elishastephens on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:02:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And furthermore... (0+ / 0-)

        Do you have any evidence that these alleged people who chose not to vote were somehow more from the Obama camp (or the Edwards camp or the Kucinich camp) than from the Clinton camp? To tell you the truth, since older people have a harder time getting to the polls, and since Clinton's voter base skews older, I'd say if anything she would have been the one disadvantaged by this alleged failure to vote on the part of some people.

        Eli Stephens
        Left I on the News

        Waiting for the deadlocked Democratic convention to turn to...Kucinich!

        by elishastephens on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:04:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And all of them were told the voting wouldn't (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      byteb, mikeplugh

      count, so many didn't bother to vote.

    •  This diary was not about the voters (0+ / 0-)

      it was about Hillary's view of the primaries.

      http://politicz.wordpress.com/

      by GlowNZ on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:05:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  NO (0+ / 0-)

        Hillary's view of the primaries has nothing whatsoever to do with whether this primary was "fake" as Kos calls it or not. That's an entirely independent point.

        Eli Stephens
        Left I on the News

        Waiting for the deadlocked Democratic convention to turn to...Kucinich!

        by elishastephens on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:05:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The primary didn't count. They were told this. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ChemBob, keenekarl, mikeplugh

      Hillary said in October that everyone knows the primaries in Michigan and Florida won't count. She thought she was winning then and so she didn't give a shit about disenfranchising voters. Now that's she's losing, she's lady liberty.
      Shame on you, Hill

      You are a child of the universe; no less than the trees and the stars... Desiderata

      by byteb on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:06:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  agreed, but ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mikeplugh

      You're right; it isn't really fair to call it fake.  On the other hand, it isn't really fair to call it legit either.

      So, do what the Republicans did: let it count, with each delegate getting 1/2 vote.  Obama will still win, and McCain won't be able to make an issue of unjust treatment of Florida in the general election, because both parties treated Florida voters the same way.

      Likewise in Michigan: the voters who cast their ballot for "uncommitted" wanted either Obama or Edwards; Edwards has endorsed Obama.  So count the uncommitteds for Obama, and again give everyone 1/2 vote.

      And disenfranchise the Florida and Michigan superdelegates, since they gave us this mess.

      So Florida is 105/2 or 52.5 Clinton, (67+13)/2 or 40 Obama.
      Michigan is 73/2 or 36.5 Clinton, 55/2 or 27.5 Obama.  That's 89 Clinton, 67.5 Obama.  Hillary gains 21.5, and she's still down by 160 total votes, or 133 pledged delegates.

      My fellow Obama fans who still think that Florida and Michigan are going to count zero haven't been paying attention; Obama himself has said that MI and FL will be seated in some capacity.

    •  Not exactly (0+ / 0-)

      The idea that these voters had equal information about the candidates is patently absurd. Clinton was like a rock star entering this campaign. Hell, even John Edwards was a known commodity for his run at the vice presidency. Of all the people running for the nomination, Obama was one of the least known.

      Campaigning in states has pulled Obama to within a few points of Clinton in the states he's lost and has given him upset wins in early primaries and caucuses that helped to secure him the nomination. The idea that not being in state talking to people isn't a liability for Obama against the Clinton legacy is nonsense.

      "A democracy is more than a form of government; it is primarily a mode of associated living, of conjoint communicated experience" -John Dewey

      by mikeplugh on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:12:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

        Then why did Obama clobber Edwards in Florida?

        Sorry, I live in California, who's primary was well after Florida, and I knew all I needed to know about the candidates long before the Florida primary. This is a national campaign, with news about the candidates on all the networks and cable channels every night (ad nauseum quite literally).

        Eli Stephens
        Left I on the News

        Waiting for the deadlocked Democratic convention to turn to...Kucinich!

        by elishastephens on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  They are NOT a representative sample!! (0+ / 0-)
  •  florida & michigan to give obama the nomination (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dkosdan

    an ironic (and fair to all parties) solution to the mi/fl mess.

      1.  split the delegates accordingly:

    michigan:

    40% obama (uncommitted)
    55% clinton

    florida:

    47%
    obama (obama+edwards votes)
    50% clinton

      2.  seat the full mi/florida delegates.

      3.  increase the number to accomodate clinton

    2208

      4.  bring that number back down to 2025 by having:

    183 superdelegates handing over their delegates to michigan and florida thereby "giving a full voice" to michigan and florida.

      5.  the remaining superdelegates (28) would be respected non-partisans endorsing in the interest of not the candidates, but the democratic party. some would be relieved...

    RESULT

    obama would cross the (reaffirmed) 2025 finish line with michigan and florida delegates seated at full being that he would only need
    86 more to claim the nomination!

    lets get this party going quickly!!

    clinton's solution becomes her demise!!!

    •  Hillary won't agree (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dkosdan

      She wants Obama to get none of the undecided votes.  Fact is, undecided is not a vote for Obama.

      So the only fair deal is a 50/50 split of delegates because all agreed breaking the roles invalidates the votes.  

      •  but she would have to (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dkosdan

        make an argument against seating the uncommitted. that would make her look even worse.

        if she does not make one compromise.

        imagine her trying to argue against seating the rest of the delegates (she would have gotten away with this before but i think patience is wearing thin)

        which will she agree to more?

        fair deal or one where she nets a few more delegates?

    •  correction: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dkosdan

      the number would be moved down to 2103.5

      obama would need 140.5

      he would receive at least 75 mi + 100 fl.

      and some more from the remaining...

      it would still make the delegate math a stark reality.

  •  Old Hill is on CNN right now, going on and on (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GlowNZ, foldingBicycle, NY Dem

    in her turquoise pant suit.  The more she loses the more she yells.  This woman must stop, please.

    CNN is laughing at Hillary and her threats to take it to the floor of the Convention.

    Looks like her threats are going to cause the Supers to shut her up quick, before May 31st.
    Hillary always tries this extreme behavior and she is always punished for it.  Although when there is a backlash from her actions whether it is from the voters, the media, or the DNC, she always finds a way to blame it on sexism.

  •  Crazy Hillary Trying to Wreck the Party (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kanuk, keenekarl, Eugenian, NY Dem

    At this point even Hillary must know that the superdelegates don't buy her lame arguments.

    So she is clearly playing to another crowd.  She is seeking to delegitimize Obama and his victory.

    How sick she must be to actually go down to FL on the day that Obama does and try to steal some of his thunder.

    At this point the supers should just put an end to her candidacy; the only thing the Clintons respect is power and force.   The more anyone tries to "appease" her the more damage she will do.  She is a sociopath who thinks the world revolves around her.

  •  How can the Dems run the country (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kanuk, Eugenian, thinkingdissenter

    when they can't even get the Clintons to play by the roles?  And what about Bin Laden? The Super D's need to end the nightmare.  

    Hillary the Democratic Presidential candidate is coming off as more unethical and unhinged than the Republican wacko doodle candidates.

  •  What Hillary fails to see is that (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    foldingBicycle, NY Dem

    florida 2000 is not the same as this situation.  SHE KNEW THE RULES GOING INTO THE START OF THE CAMPAGIN AND SIGNED A PLEDGE NOT TO CAMPAGIN IN THOSE STATES. which I might add she broke.  To suggest changing rules in midstream would  not disinfranise her voters but OBAMA VOTERS.  Florida 2000 was a different kettle of fish, it was the republicans who illegally cleansed the voter roles of mostly black democrats and counted spoiled ballots and tossed out ballots which were not spoiled which then lead directly to the supreme court ruling which gave the presidency to bush.  Not the same thing at all

    http://politicz.wordpress.com/

    by GlowNZ on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:03:44 PM PDT

  •  For the sake of party unity... (7+ / 0-)

    I have resisted gratuitous Hillary bashing till this point because I honestly believe it serves no purpose but to further the divisions in the party.But I have to vent...can anyone with an once on integrity and common sense honestly not see how totally unscrupulous this woman is? I mean she will say or do anything to win and has absolutely no shame. Obama is far from perfect but she is in a whole other stratosphere of dishonesty.

    Okay, I'm done WOO-SAA

  •  Hillary is holding us hostage (5+ / 0-)

    I feel like this woman is holding the Democratic party hostage with threats of violence. It really disturbs me. I feel like she's hauled a Trojan Horse right into our midsts.

    She's done everything Karl Rove, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, George Bush and the conservative movement could have hoped for... brought on the only real possibility of defeat for the Democrats. She seems to think these people are suddenly, genuinely on her side. (That's crazy.) The conservatives are using her to destroy as much of the Democratic advantage as they possibly can. It's the best strategy they have for winning. She's their patsy. Her greed has blinded her. It's almost Biblical in its archetypal manifestation. It's tragic, but what's really tragic is she obviously intends to take us all down with her. Her way or the highway.

    She's really no different than George Bush. Imagine what kind of leader she'll be: lying, threatening, ruling by aggression and deceit. She's every bit as much into the power of an imperial presidency as Bush and Cheney. She's studied them and now she's copying them. She won't stop once she's elected. She'll attack her perceived enemies, use the government just like Bush has to go after political opponents. She'll go after the same people the Bush administration has--those who have stood against her, whoever she wants to get even with, whoever steps out of line. She'll use her position to serve her own power in the exact same way the Bush administration has.

    She's absolutely more of the same. In fact, she's even more more of the same than John McCain, who has crappy policies, but less ego at stake, less of a score to settle, fewer people to get even with. She has no respect for democracy, not really. She may think she does, but when one breaks the rules to win and lies and distorts and threatens... she's got the makings of a despot. This does not bode well for America or the world.

    In a time of universal deceit, the simple act of telling the truth is revolutionary--George Orwell

    by Circle on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:07:11 PM PDT

    •  Nothing new (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      keenekarl, NY Dem

      She has always been like this, my only question is why is anyone surprised? THIS is Clinton politics.  For heavens sake, Bill's license to practice law was suspended for five years and he was ordered to pay $80,000+ for lying under oath.  Anyone remember Judge Wood and the public thrashing she gave him?  Made my day.  Anyone remember the missing Rose Law Firm's billing records (Hillary's firm) that suddenly appeared in a room only she had access to?  Same old, same old.  I do not believe for a minute that she will suspend her campaign unless there is some reason that she thinks it benefits her.  And frankly I highly doubt she has much interest in going back to the Senate to face all those senators that endorsed BO. So either the supers get off their asses and put this to an end or she will keep going until she achieves whatever she is aiming for.  And it is beyond the point of worrying about her supporters.  The damage is done.

      Gandhi: "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. "

      by FoxfireTX on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:24:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Really disturbing (0+ / 0-)

        No. I didn't know that history. I've been living in a bubble about the Clinton's until this campaign.

        In a time of universal deceit, the simple act of telling the truth is revolutionary--George Orwell

        by Circle on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:15:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  too young? (0+ / 0-)

          to have lived through their previous scandals and the pain they caused in this country, not to mention the embarrassment?  It is part of the reason that I am so mystified that so many older people support her.  I have no interest in living through the scandals again and the one thing that everyone should have learned from that was that you can NEVER trust a Clinton if someone crosses them.  I am still optimistic that we will see a woman as president in my lifetime but I hope it will be a woman that is trustworthy and deserving of the honor.  BTW, there is a fairly new book out about the Clinton presidency that includes the two of them that is quite well done.  Unfortunately, I don't remember the name or the author:-(  Sigh, getting old.  

          Gandhi: "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. "

          by FoxfireTX on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:41:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I wish I could claim youth, but I can't (0+ / 0-)

            I'm old enough to have known. I never much liked Hillary, and I was annoyed at Bill for his bullshit sex stuff, but I didn't look closely at the situation. I just saw how outrageous the Right was and let it go at that. Obviously I didn't want to know too much. I was never a Hillary supporter, but I didn't take her dark side seriously until after Iowa and, especially after the scenes they pulled in South Carolina.

            In a time of universal deceit, the simple act of telling the truth is revolutionary--George Orwell

            by Circle on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:41:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Hillary is the movie "Groundhog Day." (3+ / 0-)

    But, she's not redoing the day and getting nicer.

    "...there is the United States of America." Obama

    by redtex on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:08:18 PM PDT

  •  Not all Elections are Fair (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    keenekarl, soms

    Just because there was a vote does not mean it was fair or should count.

    Hillary's theory is that there was a vote, therefore it must be counted.  But that ignores the fact that there have been plenty of elections in Cuba, Russia, North Korea, etc.

    An election is not in and of itself the sign of a functioning democracy.  

    To count the elections in FL or MI would effectively disenfranchise many voters who did not participate due to the fact that they were told the election would not count towards the nomination.

    Then there's the fact that the candidates did not campaign.  And yes, that's a big deal, involving more than just running TV ads.  There are the rallies, which are important, esp for someone of Obama's appeal.

    But even more important is the grassroots organizing and GOTV efforts.  

    Of course in MI Obama's name was not even on the ballot.

    Hillary's arguments for counting the FL and MI elections are so craven, so dishonest, that one sees how low she is.  She needs to be rejected as strongly as possible.

  •  Is it just me??? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    keenekarl, soms, NY Dem, thinkingdissenter

    Whenever I hear one of the Clinton attack chihuahuas on TV trying to explain why Florida and Michigan should count, I think "You are utterly full of shit."

    Amazing detachment from reality.

    Has anyone compiled a complete list of quotes from her camp regarding these two primaries way back when, at the time she wasn't grasping at straws?

  •  This woman is evil (5+ / 0-)

    I don't mean "bad"

    I mean Dick Cheney.

    Evil.

  •  Vomit Hillary Out of the Party (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    keenekarl, soms, foldingBicycle

    It's time we realized the obvious: Hillary is no friend of the party and we need to shut her down as quickly and strongly as possible.

    At this point Hillary is McCain's best friend and is doing more good for him than any Republican supporter or surrogate.

    It is risking the party to allow her to continue to go on.

    Just look at the way she has taken away from Obama's great FL visit.  Without Hillary's sour grapes the whole story would have been Obama's visit.  

    Now it's this latest absurd claim by Hillary.

    •  Careful what you wish for. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      soms

      It is conceivable that if she would run a Naderesque campaign.  And that surely would mean a victory for McCain.  And that would, at least in her mind, leave it open for her in 2012.

      •  No Way (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        soms

        There is no way that Hillary would run as a third party candidate.

        First, she doesn't have the money or the skill to do so.  She hasn't even been able to run a good campaign as a Democrat.  She would crash and burn.

        Second, if she would, there is no way the Democratic party would in any way welcome her back for a 2012 run.

        Third, so many Democrats would turn on her and Bill that the Clinton legacy would be trashed forever.

  •  Dumb question: why not seat Florida and Michigan? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dkosdan

    As I understand it, this would only close the gap by 43 delegates (assuming Edwards delegates go to Obama).

    Clinton: 105 + 73 - new total = 1968
    Obama: 80 + 55 - new total = 2098

    So Obama would still have a 130-delegate lead and the momentum with superdelegates.

    Seriously, I'm asking this as an Obama supporter.  Apparently the Obama proposal was only 4 delegates different in Michigan.

    If this would end the debate, why not do it?

    We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan

    by CA Libertarian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:16:47 PM PDT

  •  I Wouldn't (0+ / 0-)

    On the night of November 15, 1917, the superintendent of the Occoquan Workhouse, W.H. Whittaker, ordered the nearly forty guards to brutalize the suffragists. They beat Lucy Burns, chained her hands to the cell bars above her head, then left her there for the night. They threw Dora Lewis into a dark cell and smashed her head against an iron bed, which knocked her out. Her cellmate, Alice Cosu, who believed Lewis to be dead, suffered a heart attack. According to affidavits, guards grabbed, dragged, beat, choked, pinched, and kicked other women.

    I wouldn't bring that up if I were you - not after the way the MSM and others have treated women in this country for so long.

  •  BO Cheated The Clintons & Their Supporters! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GlowNZ, soms, NY Dem, MA Voter

    What This Is Really About - BO Out-Smarted Billary. He refused to fight on their terms and he won! Clinton was itching for a fight, he would not give it to her and that drove her nuts! I know sometimes I want to fight with my husband and he refuses, and that usually drives me crazy than if he had given me what I want, which is a fight.

    BO is a smart leader, he gets what he wants! Ahmadinejad should watch out, BO might get everything he wants.

    Why Obama won't attack HRC - LAZIO effect! She can play victim card easily.

    by PunditHater on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:17:09 PM PDT

    •   BO Cheated Clintons & Her Supporters 2 (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      soms, MA Voter

      They wanted to fight dirty/inuendo/wright instead of issues and BO sad NO!
      They wanted to fight him in New Jersey, New York, etc, but he said no the fight is in Missouri, Virginia etc. He has beaten them in their own game. He might not be good at bowling, but he sure is good at CHESS - check mate!

      Why Obama won't attack HRC - LAZIO effect! She can play victim card easily.

      by PunditHater on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:27:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hillary Seeking to Delegitimize Obama (9+ / 0-)

    In so many ways Hillary is seeking to delegitimize Obama.

    She has been told by the party that she needs to stop the full frontal attacks, so she is going after him in more subtle ways.

    First there were the racist attacks, where they tried to stir up racial tension and prejudice.

    Now Hillary's trying to plant the seeds of casting doubt on the legitimacy of Obama's victory.

    Add to that their attempts to portray the Obama campaign and its supporters as sexist, when nothing could be further from the truth.

    In all these ways they are trying to plant doubts in people's minds and sabotage Obama.

    At this point the supers need to shut her down quick.  She is bringing down the party and making herself look like a fool.  If allowed to go on much longer, she will begin to make the Dem party look like fools as well.

    Leading Democrats need to realize that if they forcefully confront her they will come across as much stronger to the public, and justifiably so.  This is actually an opportunity for the party to improve its reputation....kind of a "Sister Souljah" moment.

  •  it's like (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms

    raaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin on your wedding day

    it's a freeeeeeeeeeeeee ride when you're always late

  •  Speaking of the popular vote... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms, foldingBicycle, MariaWr

    There is a poll out where obama has a 16 point lead nationally over clinton... That has as much clout as her  ignoramus statments.

    http://politicz.wordpress.com/

    by GlowNZ on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:21:19 PM PDT

  •  Thank you so much for this post! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms
    I am sooooooo frustrated by the insane logic I hear on the teevee. Thanks for putting this in perspective!
  •  How many people must she step on to get (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms

    to the top?

    The Truth is nonpartisan!

    by fedupcitizen on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:26:52 PM PDT

  •  It's like Stalingrad (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms
  •  Thanks Kos! (0+ / 0-)

    As a Hillary supporter, I appreciate you bringing out the true feelings of the Obama supporters here.  With all of the nasty comments here, I'm miles and miles away from ever voting for Obama in the GE.  I won't vote for McCain, but believe me, after being called name after name by all of you here, I don't really care at this moment if your candidate wins.  

    I know the Dem's will win more seats in the Senate & House this time around no matter who wins the big race, so why should I vote for Obama, to make all of you people who are calling a fine American and all of her followers one swear word after another?  

    I don't think so.  Good luck in OH, MI, PA, & WV, you're all gonna need it!

    If Bill was still in charge, this wouldn't all be happening...

    by letsbepragmatic on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:50:06 PM PDT

    •  But YOU are SUPPORTING HER TACTICS!!! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      soms, NY Dem, chrome327

      If you do not speak out against them and tell your candidate to stop. If you are such a passive aggressive bendable voter to let comments be your excuse for not voting for the Democratic nominee [if you are a registered Democrat] then you weren't going to vote for Obama anyway, but please answer a few questions as you'd like to think of yourself as being enlightened I'm sure and just won't come straight and say you wouldn't vote for the Black candidate anyway and was just looking for an excuse not to.

      Describe the different levels of white supremacist structure that are functioning within society and to explain how those structures have generationally subjugated people of color. [Why Clinton's use of Slavery was an abomination]

      You Don't Have to Agree but You Need to Acknowledge

      1. white privilege - who has it, who doesn't
      1. whether you regularly confront class and gender prejudice within your race

      This isn't about validating your worth as a Hillary supporter or to assuage your 'guilt'. Being defensive and combative in response to LEGIT ARGUMENTS in insulting to people who have been harmed. having your feelings hurt is not HARM. You need to actually LISTEN to the valid points being made and not dismiss them because it makes you feel uncomfortable.

    •  try voting for your country (0+ / 0-)

      and your fellow countrymen...that'd be a start.

      I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

      by valadon on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:25:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Believe you me (0+ / 0-)

      The feeling is definitely mutual among Obama supporters when it comes to Senator Clinton.

      At least, it's mutual with me. Because, frankly, I'm fed up with being called an "Obamabot" because I had the audacity to support someone not Senator Clinton. I'm fed up with the implication that I'm somehow being sexist because I do not support Senator Clinton. I'm fed up with the implication that I don't matter, that I don't and can't think for myself, all because I don't support Senator Clinton.

      Yes, the readiness of some Obama supporters to paint Clinton supporters in these same broad brush strokes isn't and will never be okay, but please do not act as if you and the rest of Senator Clinton's supporters were the only ones who have been belittled and insulted.

      Believe you me, I've been plenty belittled and insulted by Clinton supporters, and believe you me, I'm mightily pissed off about it.

  •  She can't play her Queen against a King... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms

    ...in this race or any other.

    There is not one sane person in the USA who would accept Hillary as a more legitimate heir to MLK Jr. than Barack.

  •  I'm late to this thread (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sharoney, soms, NY Dem, MariaWr

    but I just gotta say:

    I'm reading Taylor Branch's Pillar of Fire right now, and I am reading in detail about the brutality visited upon civil rights activists.

    Hillary's rhetoric on this point is deeply offensive.

  •  Crossing Over from Annoyance to Hatred (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    keenekarl, soms

    That's it. I am DONE! Clinton is using all of her white privilege to steal the nomination. What are we going to DO! I know I've already written and called all of my elected officials today. This country has to make a choice whether it will uphold and actively pursue justice or allow the needs of one maniacal power hungry BITCH - yes BITCH try to install herself as King. Using slavery, SLAVERY as an argument for her own self-serving interests AFTER SHE TOLD EVERY BLACK PERSON TO GET TO THE BACK OF THE BUS.... I am so angry I can barely type this. I. Am. Done. She needs to be put down like the rabid disease infested dog she is. Anyone who still supports her but does NOT SPEAK OUT AGAINST HER TACTICS is agreeing with her so screw you all too!

  •  Corazon Aquino? Joan of Arc? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms, MariaWr

    We've already had Annie Oakley, Paulette Revere, Rocky.

    Who is she really?

    Loudest the river, fewest the fish.

    by houyhnhnm on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:54:35 PM PDT

  •  Mugabe = HRC (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AtlantaJan, smoosh21, soms

    Mugabe refuses to give up power, so does HRC. The people have spoken, he refuses. He changes the rules to suit, so does HRC.

    HRC = Mugabe - the power monger of Zimbabwe!

    Why Obama won't attack HRC - LAZIO effect! She can play victim card easily.

    by PunditHater on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:58:37 PM PDT

    •  Okay, I am not troll-rating you (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlueMama, TNThorpe

      on the assumption that you a) don't know much about Robert Mugabe or b) have, like me, had more than 3 glasses of wine.

      Hillary is many bad things. Comparable to Mugabe, she is not.

      It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -- Thomas Jefferson

      by AtlantaJan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:03:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your Declaration Proves Nothing! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        soms

        when it quacks like a duck it is a duck!

        As for wine, speak for yourself.

        She is power-hungry just like mugabe! She does not care about FL and MI as she said, she just using them to get power, just like Mugabe! Mugabe claims (like Hillary) that he cares about Zimbabweans, but all thinking people know it is about him and not about Floridians or   people from Michigan.

        Again, if it quacks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it probably is a duck.

        HRC = Mugabe!

        Why Obama won't attack HRC - LAZIO effect! She can play victim card easily.

        by PunditHater on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:09:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm sorry but... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soms, heartsandflowers, shayshay

    I don't believe that any true supporter of Senator Obama (and certainly not Senator Obama) believes for one minute that the do not have an obligation to do their best to embrace the Senator Clinton supporters. That's pure rubbish.  In the heat of any primary there are always lines drawn in the sand.  The fact of the matter is that unfortunately Senator Obamas supporters believe in abiding by the rules that the DNC laid down (in spite of the fact that FL and MI didn't follow them) and EVEN if FL and MI are seated IN FULL THE WAY THAT SENATOR CLINTON WANTS there is still a matter of Senator Clinton WINNING MORE THAN 70% of the Super Delegates.

    Senator Obama's supporters are dealing in reality while Senator Clinton's supporters are using a different measurement for victory that WAS NEVER a part of the DNC's plan which was FULLY AGREED TO BY ALL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES.

    I'm sorry but this has  gotten WAY out of hand and Senator Clinton is now extended FALSE HOPE to a number of voters who would be a very strong backbone and foundation for the ENTIRE DEMOCRATIC PARTY regardless of WHO THE NOMINEE IS.  She's making it sound like SHE'S THE INJURED PARTY.

    You cannot argue that VOTES IN MI AND FL BE COUNTED AND IN THE SAME BREATH DISENFRANCHISE THE VOTES FROM CAUCUSES

    'because they represent activists and not voters'.

     I'm sorry but ENOUGH IS ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

    Reformed Independent Voter

    by MA Voter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:32:48 PM PDT

  •  I suggest you look up (0+ / 0-)

    Robert Mugabe

    Taking over Zimbabwe as a hero, he immediately set to work disabling the country's economy and murdering opposition forces.

    He co-opted many productive farms, owned by white farmers, in an effort to give his supporters land. The outcome was a totally disintegration of the country's agricultural system. His country now has no way of feeding its people, has inflation rates that are out of this world and has forced opposition leaders into hiding.

    Hillary may think that she is owed the presidency, but her failings fail in comparison to those of Mugabe. You might as well compare her to Stalin or Hitler. You may not like her,and I don't, but comparing her to Mugabe is ill-conceived.

    Notice I did not say stupid.

    It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -- Thomas Jefferson

    by AtlantaJan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:35:04 PM PDT

    •  If you follow the link... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      berkeleybarb

      you'll see that it's Hillary Clinton who compared the Florida vote situation to the obfuscated results of the recent Zimbabwe election. An inane, if not insane comparison, and rather insulting to the Zimbabweans, given the spiraling violence against the opposition in Zimbabwe even as we speak.

      But no one's comparing Hillary to Robert Mugabe. That would be even more ridiculous.

      Cry, the beloved country, these things are not yet at an end. - Alan Paton

      by rcbowman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:36:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  My Comparison of Mugabe And Clinton Is On Point! (0+ / 0-)

      Mugabe like Clinton started as a hero! He fought the Mighty British empire for the people of Zimbabwe and he won. For a long time he was seen as a hero for Africans struggling to end colonialism. Clinton like Mugabe championed liberal causes and helped take down Nixon and worked in the civil rights movement as a young woman.

      NOW BOTH OF THEM, HILLARY AND MUGABE FEEL ENTITLED TO POWER. Mugabe and Hillary both believe that they know what is good for us little people and therefore are entitled to rule over us. They both cite their love and care for the people, but we know that all they care about is power.

      As for Mugabe using violence, again Hillary given time she will do exactly that. She has already promised to annihilate anyone who disagrees with America. She voted for war because she thought that is what would be good to keep her in power. The point is, they are both dictators who think they know what is good for us and WILL STOP AT NOTHING TO ATTAIN AND KEEP THAT POWER.

      Why Obama won't attack HRC - LAZIO effect! She can play victim card easily.

      by PunditHater on Thu May 22, 2008 at 05:11:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  she is a piece of work (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, soms

    ~we study the old to understand the new~from one thing know ten thousand~to see things truly one must see what is in the light and what lies hidden in shadow~

    by ArthurPoet on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:48:23 PM PDT

  •  Hillary over the top VP Choice (0+ / 0-)

    I have been trying to deal with just how bizarre Hillary's claims have become.  In order to do so, I wrote a fictional, and hopefully funny,piece "Hillary Declares her Choice for VP."
    http://msa4.wordpress.com/

  •  It MUST be something in the water... (0+ / 0-)

    It MUST be something in the water this week for Hill, Gramps McSame and LIEberman... they're ALL trippin'!

    First it's McSame and his 'visions' for/or 2013, DEFINITE Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds stuff, that.

    Then, LIEberman chimes in with ALL his Zell Miller impersonations.

    And, Hillary cruises down the South 40 spraying liquid BS everywhere, hoping that something, ANYTHING 'grows'...

    unfortuantely, the only thing 'growing' this week, besides my distate for LIEberman, incredulity of McSame, revulsion of Hillary is the tumore in Ted's head.

    I hope he gets some serious face time w/his waterdogs.

    "...in these new dark ages There will still be light."

    by Ken Tucker on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:28:39 AM PDT

  •  Lesson One People: When Entering A Fight (0+ / 0-)

    You have to believe you and your buddies are the baddest mother-fers around, and when its all said and done its your side that's going to emerge victorious.

    We've got the votes, the passion, and the truth on our side. Unfortunately, we don't have the 'myth of clinton invinsibility' on our side. Look at how much Hillary has been able to accomplish with a psyche game alone.

    It's our fault. We've let her win the psyche thus far. Don't fret about the rules, or whose on the comittees. Just tell yourselves, nope, it's our side which is stronger. We're the baddest mother-fers in this party, and we're going to win. Say, act it, write, demand it and not only will you believe it. Everyone else will start to believe it to, and this process will be shut down.

  •  So now it's a FAKE primary? (0+ / 0-)

    with fake voters casting fake ballots?

    •  Hillary is a fake democrat. (0+ / 0-)

      By trying to cheat, Florida and Michigan disqualified their voters so take it up with them.

      I'll give you 10 to 1 that Hillary operatives made the move to rush those primaries and now they are paying the consequences for trying to rig the process to their advantage. I am utterly sick of these people. Let's get them out of the Party and start building a legitimate progressive movement.

      Like an idiot, I used to support the Clintons.  Fuck the selfish lying creeps.

  •  We were in Zimbabwe during the 2000 election (0+ / 0-)

    and the run up. There to see wildlife, we were mainly in national parks.

    We thankfully saw no violence, but the white farmers on whose farm we were staying left the country in fear right before the election and left their "backpackers" hostel and farm in the hands of black workers and European managers.  

    We boarded a night train from Harare to Bulawayo only to find three full car loads of police being sent out to monitor the elections.

    With the reports of our own government having lists of potential people to round up and put in concentration camps, with the example of Guantanamo, etc , it does feel somewhat like Zimbabwe here.  But not because of the treatment of the Florida straw poll.

    I will try to forgive the Clinton campaign, but it will be hard....

  •  Who will be Hillary's Count von Stauffenberg? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mimi

    For the good of the nation, someone close to Hillary has to make her see the light of reason (doubtful) or take her "out" (metaphorically).

    Air America's Rachel Maddow had a brilliant proposal where 90 superdelegates need to endorse Sen. Obama before the May 31st Dem convention rules committee so that the whole fight over MI and FL becomes moot.

    End this NOW!

    ----

    I! Have Had! Enough! Of YOU! ~ James T. Kirk

    •  we should try to push the superdelegates (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LanceThruster

      to come clean in their decisions before the rules committee meets.

      We should threaten the superdelegates. If they don't take sides en bloc before May 31rst, they should fear our next votes.

      Just imagine Democrats would mess up this historic possibilities to win an overwhelming majority in the House and Senate and in the WH, just because some superdelegates aren't men, women enough to make responsible decisions.

      •  Anyone know the ratio... (0+ / 0-)

        ...of available elected superdelegates versus unelected superdelegates? I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that it is largely the elected ones that have come forward so far.

        It is maddening to feel that through a perfect storm of circumstances, the Dems stand poised to snatch defeat once again from the jaws of victory.

        It's almost as if it was planned this way as what should be a slam dunk is now entirely in question. Much of what is transpiring seems tailor-made to provide cover for yet another Rethuglican election theft.

        That's my take on this. Your conspiracy theory mileage may vary.

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