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What is lost in Hillary for President argument

One thing that I couldnt stop thinking about while watching that Rules and Bylaws committee meeting, when Hillary supporters were chanting, "Denver, Denver" is, what would happen IF Hillary pulled out an upset?

Well, lets think about the scenario.:

Hillary argues, she wins the big states, the popular vote lie, can beat McCain.  Superdelegates look at the electoral map and believe the lie that Hillary won the popular vote and they decide, "Hey ya know what, she does deserve to be the nominee, lets give it to her."  Superdelegates flock to Hillary, she reaches the magic number first.  

Does the Clinton campaign and her supporters think that then the Obama campaign and his supporters would just accept that and say, "Oh well?".  Of course not, Obama stands up and says, "We won the most pledged delegates, the most states and we can create a NEW blue majority."  We already know that Obama is more organized, has a better fund raising aparatus, stronger grassroots supporter and a better argument:  Delegates are what nominates.

So, given the unlikely scenario that Clinton pulls out some big upset, the fight goes to the convention, period.  As much talk there is about unity and  bringing together the party, Obama and us will not just lay down and allow Hillary to steal the nomination.  We all saw the despicable rhetoric and attitudes of her supporters yesterday, imagine if there were a million Obama supporters descending upon the convention in August, organized, funded and protesting in a way that Hillary's supporters did not, with class, dignity and a legitimate argument.  

Originally posted to mobilio316 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:44 PM PDT.

Poll

If Hillary pulls out a stunning upset, will you meet me in Denver in August?

72%122 votes
27%46 votes

| 168 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  tips for pointing out the obvious (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geiiga
  •  It is not a fact (21+ / 0-)

    that Hillary won the popular vote. Stop repeating this lie.

    What's so hard about Peace, Love, and Truth and Progress?

    by melvin on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:47:09 PM PDT

  •  This is simply untrue. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sara seattle, highacidity, bwintx

    the fact that Hillary won the popular vote

    Well, you know what I always say: if you plan ahead, then when things happen, you're prepared. -Hank Hill

    by sanglug on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:50:48 PM PDT

  •  Besides - it is not going to happen (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theran, highacidity

    n/t

    "Proud to proclaim: I am a Bleeding Heart Liberal"

    by sara seattle on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:54:08 PM PDT

  •  Besides (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    highacidity, shaotse

    Delegates: Pledged Super Total Needed
    Obama      1,723.5 329.5 2,053   64  

    Clinton    1,586.5 290 1,876.5  240.5  

    Remaining      86  204  290  
    (2,117 delegates needed for victory)

    the election is won/or lost by the delegates -- and Obama is so far ahead that HRC does not have a prayer.

    "Proud to proclaim: I am a Bleeding Heart Liberal"

    by sara seattle on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:56:55 PM PDT

  •  welcome to scifi channel (0+ / 0-)
  •  You forgot to put in your poll (0+ / 0-)

    Hell's yes!

  •  Hillary would need Obama to be shot (1+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2
    Hidden by:
    kestrel9000

    Thats the only way she wins this, as she's stated.

    The trolls are out in force today...

  •  I will support whoever is the nominee (0+ / 0-)

    And since it is impossible for Hilary to pull ahead with out landslides in SD, Puerto Rico, and Montana plus the a flood of a vast majority of superdelegates.

    In other words it is impossible for her, so I'll support Barack Obama.

  •  If I have a choice between Puppet Bush and (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lepanto

    Pant-suit Bush,well I'm not going to reward Pant-suit Bush.

  •  Extraordinarily unlikely (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    unterhausen

    At this point, Clinton would need something like 93% of the uncommitted superdelegates to reach the majority threshold.  It's just not going to happen.

  •  just a conversation piece guys, relax (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    unterhausen

    i know that its damn near impossible, thats why this is a "scenario" piece, not a "oh shit" piece

  •  Scenario: Mike Gravel wins... (0+ / 0-)

    ...the Democratic nomination.

    Blue Jersey. All the news that slips from print.

    by Scott in NJ on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:10:25 PM PDT

  •  of course I'll meet you in Denver (0+ / 0-)

    Bring your torch and pitchfork, and I'll bring mine.

    Hawkish on impeachment.

    by clyde on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:11:18 PM PDT

  •  er, STEALING THE NOMINATION? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BigBensBeermaster

    If Hillary gets a flock of supers to beat Obama to the magic number, I hate to say this, being an Obama loyalist, but that would not be stealing.  That would be playing by the rules.  She has a less legitimate claim to the votes of the supers if she is not the pledged delegate leader - and we know she is not because the contests are nearly through and Obama has the absolute majority.  What it would do, from the perspective of those superdelegates who buck the will over the voters, is put their own elected positions in jeopardy, because it will be widely perceived to be ignoring a democratically selected winner - even if he did not get the magic number, he has won by every other metric and has an unassailable lead.    It would also lead to inevitable failure in the General Election as black voters will stay home in droves and will alienate new voters as well as Obamacans who switched parties - not to vote for Hillary - but to vote for Obama.  Frankly - I don't believe there are that many stupid superdelegates who will jeopardize the entire election, their own reelection prospects, and the future of the party's new members and newly-reinvigorated black base - just to satisfy the Clinton ego.

    louise 'hussein' to you! proud donor to "White Dudes for Obama" Endorsed 11/1/07 and never looked back!

    by louisev on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:33:17 PM PDT

    •  The rules say that you can steal (0+ / 0-)

      The SDs are a check valve against an August surprise IMO.

      Thing is, if Hillary pulls off the coup by Superdelegate kiss the black vote and the south goodbye.

      Hillary will have to expand the Kerry map and I don't think she can do it once the 527s get ahold of her.  Not with the shamefully terrible campaign shes run.

  •  It's an odd scenario (0+ / 0-)

    I wouldn't go to Denver, I'd just become an independent.  Mike Begala described superdelegates on CNN as his party's "House of Lords", and that's essentially right.  They shouldn't exist but they do.  I'd conclude that the Dems had broken faith with me, Joe voter, by overturning the results of the contest which everyone clearly thought would determine the outcome last year.  They wouldn't be breaking their own rules, though.  This would be more like resigning from a club after learning they had rules I couldn't support.  This wouldn't necessarily preclude my voting a straight Dem ticket in November, I just wouldn't be doing this as a member of the party.

    Since we're talking about nutty scenarios, a gutsier option for Obama would be to resign from the party and try to pull off what Ross Perot attempted.  No one in American politics has ever succeeded in pulling off a challenge to both parties from the center--in some ways this is the Holy Grail--but Obama this year would be uniquely situated to do so (he could probably bring 1/3 of Dems with him, make someone like Hegel his VP, and focus entirely on winning Indies).

    The likely result of this, of course, is that McCain would simply win (and Obama's party would either collapse or limp on for another cycle and then disintegrate).  If he had any help from another indie who was trying to take votes from the Republican side, though (eg. Bob Barr), he could be the front runner, though he'd then have to do the difficult work of winning in the House of Representitives (since no candidate would probably emerge with 270 EC votes).

    You'd have a truly odd situation, since the race would probably turn on the deals which each faction would make with the other (I'm assuming, btw, that Obama could get some fraction of House Democrats to back him, otherwise Clinton would probably win in the House straight out).

    In other words: none of this is freakin' likely (this sort of thing only happens when there is a huge issue in play, eg. slavery).

    "As for being "half-witted", what can I say? Except that I have survived to middle age, with half my wits, while thousands have died with all of theirs intact!"

    by ClaudiusTheGod on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:04:49 PM PDT

  •  I almost wish this would happen (0+ / 0-)

    as a Democrat who has wanted to re-register as an Independent, I think Obama could actually pull enough of the population to make a third party viable.  If Clinton represents the old-school Dems, which I think are those who are hanging on with her, Obama can represent the new-school Democratic party--which can have a new definition.  I've always believed Obama will win this by outnumbering the rethugs and racists, not by converting them.  If there is a new, fresh party? Name it what you will. I find that pretty exciting.  Hope this won't be necessary, but if Hillary keeps pushing this, a new paradigm may need to be considered.

    All serious daring starts from within. ~Eudora Welty~

    by livjack on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:33:10 PM PDT

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