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Recently I had opportunity to briefly chat with a man at an event that was political in nature, but attended by people of both parties.  It was small talk until I asked if he was a Democrat.  He said that no, he was a Republican.

The last 8 years have profoundly affected me.  Seeing gwb's murderous rampage facilitated by his party has made me less than congenial to Repugs.  I am NOT sorry for it, and I find no reason to be even respectful of murder facilitators.

So I asked him, "Aren't you embarrassed to be a Republican?"

"No" he said, "and a Republican would never be that rude."

At that point things deteriorated and the details do not matter. However, on further reflection, I now know where I should have taken the opening he gave me.

The next time I get such a response, this is what I am going to say:

"So this is about being civil, about following the rules of being polite?  Tell me, please, how polite is it to attack a country that did nothing to provoke our invasion?  How polite is is to blow up people's houses, maim tens of thousands of its citizens, create large numbers of orphans, murder hundreds of thousands of them so that we can drive SUV's?  There is no polite in war and you are the last person in the world who can accuse someone of being impolite.

You have facilitated murder a hundred thousand times over.  You have the blood of every dead Iraqi over the last 5 years on your hands.  Don't you dare insinuate that my lack of congeniality to you is somehow a greater offense than the sin you carry on your soul."

It isn't about changing them through congenial conversation.  They need to know that we consider them as murders.  Let's hope it causes them to start to think about what they've done.  Many of them have never even had that thought go through their heads.  Someone needs to tell them. I've appointed myself.

Originally posted to nuketeacher on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:25 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  "A Republican would never be that rude" (6+ / 0-)

      Compa, you're not an asshole at all. You came up with a very proper reply.  

      It's interesting, though, that replies like yours aren't at the tips of our tongues.  

      I mean, who the fuck jokes, "bomb, bomb, bomb ... bomb bomb Iran" and totally gets away with it?  Would Vietnam vets like Kerry or Webb ever think of saying such a thing?  And what if an Iranian leader had done it: "Bomb, bomb, bomb ... bomb the USA?" Would we also just laugh it off as a joke?

      So, don't worry, we understand your frustration.  We're all sorta lulled into thinking that we Americans are still really not all that bad in spite of GWB's evilness.  It's hard to keep it in the front of our minds that, yes, America no does things that corrupt regimes all over the world have done...

      THAT'S not change we can believe in, he he he ... creepy forced smile.

      by Anak on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:44:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  you'd sooner get a favorable result... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      demoKatz

      ...arguing with a head of lettuce! i'm not to sure what republicans have between their ears, but it's certainly less receptive to rational thought and persuasion then, say, chlorophyll is...

    •  I would not take the Iraq approach (9+ / 0-)

      because it doesn't do anything to them, they REALLY don't care if they are on the hard edge of that party.

      If they say that a republican would not be that rude...

      Really?  After what your party did to Max Cleland?  After what they did with the swiftboat ads against John Kerry?  After what they did in accusing half this nation of being traitors?  You really want to say that they would not be that rude when they have done everything possible to insult and degrade a major portion of the country?  I would hazard sir/madam that not only are they profoundly more rude then I have been but further they have gone out of their way to start a fight with all the delicacy and skill of a drunk frat boy.

      The reason I asked if you were embarrassed was I can not conceive of being a member of a party that has insulted so many Americans, up to and including decorated combat veterans and NOT being so.  I apparently took you for a person with a sense of shame and honor.

      Now if you will excuse me I only talk with Americans and not enemies of America.

      now you should turn and begin to walk away.  They of course will flip out on that last part... this is all part of the plan.  So when they reengage you with whatever sputtering crap they are going to use, respond with this no matter what it is in specific because in general it is likely to be something that this will fit as a response to.

      No, you and your party ARE enemies of America, because only an enemy of this nation would take her to war and then proceed to take aggressive steps to divide a united people.  Only an enemy of America would take her army to a foreign shore under false pretenses, and then would not use enough forces to bring the war to a speedy and final conclusion.. no sir/madam only an enemy of America would slowly bleed our military to death in a dishonorable war of aggression while allowing the murderer of 3000 of my countrymen to escape.

      And if you are a republican then you have supported that regime, you put it in power, and you ARE an enemy of America.

      Now that will hurt them long hard and good

    •  So I'd rec you a thousand times if I could (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Corwin Weber, Jeff Y, Anak

      It's time to stop being the nice guys.

      "Take whatever you can, Steal whatever you can't take, Kill what you can't steal so no one else can have it." - Republican Business Philosophy

      by Pen on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:03:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You did better than I would have done (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pompatus

      I have a "take no prisoners" attitude with the Wingers, I go for the throat...and I learned it all from them. When the Repugs swiftboated Kerry in 04 that was the end-all for me and it's what made me politically active for the first time in my life on places like D-Kos. I know it's not always right but I'm pissed at them and I want the country that I used to respect to be respectable in the worlds eyes again.

  •  I doubt you'll get much further (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    quaoar

    Get all of the day's top Obama stories at dailyobama.org

    by sea2008 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:30:35 PM PDT

  •  Remember your heritage, liberals (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    daulton, Spoc42, slksfca, Jeff Y

    After deciding to learn some history of the the 18th century, I found that in many ways, the people of France in 1789 were more enlightened than the people of Alabama in 2008.

    Oh well. As far as I'm concerned, this is what at least a tenth of republicans deserve.

  •   ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pluto, Anak

    not to mention they are responsible for innocent people getting killed on death row, children growing up in poverty, every american not receiving health care.

  •  I guess that's one approach.... (9+ / 0-)

    But, I personally don't think it's going to win any votes for Democrats.

    I interact with my neighbors, with fellow workers (before retirement) with associates, and unless politics comes up, I don't bring it up.  Now, given who I am, it usually does, but I always try to show respect for other's points of view.

    All kinds of people are thrown together in our society, and it works pretty good.  Conversations, and conversions (although rare) only have a chance for success if they are not accompanied with.....well what you described.

    People need to save face, and feel that they are respected, then they can at least hear what you say.

    At least that's my opinion.

  •  Good luck with... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jkennerl, Greg in TN

    ...your quixotic endeavor.

    Or, you could be satisfied with converting Republican children, instead.  It's happening all around you.

    "When they own the information, they can bend it all they want." -- John Mayer

    by pinhighin2 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:34:12 PM PDT

  •  I take a different approach (8+ / 0-)

    when I encounter Republicans.

    Even if they are rude to me, I figure I am better off modeling good behavior.

    And unfortunately, many Democrats didn't do everything they could have done to stop the war from happening.

    John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."

    by desmoinesdem on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:34:47 PM PDT

  •  I encourage you to parse (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    daulton, Jeff Y, browneyes

    Republicans who continue to support the current administration are likely as foolish (or evil) as you suggest.

    There may be people who are NOT evil who believe in small government, yada, yada... you can have an intelligent discussion with them and might be able to sway them toward your way of thinking.

    Someone had a great tag line a few weeks ago, I don't recall who they were quoting, but it went something like:

    You can't reason someone out of a belief they didn't reason themselves into.

    Just as all Dems aren't saints, all Republicans aren't sinners.  Reason with the ones who can be reasoned with.

    Kudos for your response BTW... wish it had been handy at the time.

  •  Over the top (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    browneyes

    Your point is well taken but is a bit over the top.  I just tell them they are wrong now and have been for a long time and then give them the reasons why they are wrong.  I find they generally shut up or go off on an irrational rant upon which I bring them back to why they were wrong and that usually clams them up.  At this point, they know that they are ill-informed but, interestingly, they always try to get the last word.

  •  Being rude and obnoxious only furthers (0+ / 0-)

    the stereotype that liberals are arrogant elitists.  You catch more flies with honey.  I personally live by the Golden Rule.  

    blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

    by browneyes on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:44:55 PM PDT

    •  And If You're Not Rude You Perpetuate the Stereo- (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      irishwitch, Cali Techie, Anak

      type that they're wimpy, can't fight and don't stand up for themselves.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:50:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm anything but wimpy. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Anak

        There's a difference between standing on principal and just being downright hateful.  People can differ and argue respectfully without having to resort to rudeness.

        blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

        by browneyes on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:52:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How is it hateful? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          churchylafemme, browneyes

          Are you saying his reply is not true?

          In any case, it's hard to tell just what kind of Rethug we are dealing with in the diary.  Where I lived in California, I met lots that didn't give a shit about gay marriage, guns, religion, abortion. All that stuff was for folks in Appalachia.  As long as they were the beneficiaries of Rethug econimic policies, they'll mock us and vehemently support whatever the heck Bush does.  Heck, even the Iraq war--they couldn't give a shit.

          So, I do agree with you that a diplomatic approach might be better.  But I think it depends on just what kind of Repug one is dealing with.

          THAT'S not change we can believe in, he he he ... creepy forced smile.

          by Anak on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:13:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If someone is rude to me, I have no problem with (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Anak

            returning the attitude.  I'm from Appalachia.  I'm surrounded by Republicans.  The vast majority of which are far from hateful and rude.  They just have different beliefs.

            I've just never found behaving rudely to be a particularly helpful approach to winning people over.

            blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

            by browneyes on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:26:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ok (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              browneyes

              Then I agree with you about not being rude towards such people.  

              But, seriously, the majority of Californian Republicans could give a shit about Appalachia etc, like I wrote.  It's like they all get sent emails of  Republican talking-points which they read as soon as they get up in the morning and parrot throughout the day. So, my view of Republicans has been influenced by that type.  

              In any case, good luck over there, browneyes. Suerte!

              THAT'S not change we can believe in, he he he ... creepy forced smile.

              by Anak on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:35:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  But (0+ / 0-)

        it's just torture. And killing thousands of innocent people. And invading one's privacy.  And...

        Oh, did you hear?  Collin Powell might endorse Obama!  A reputable Republican might endorese Obama!

        Barf. Fail.

        THAT'S not change we can believe in, he he he ... creepy forced smile.

        by Anak on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:59:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I would do it this way... (4+ / 0-)

    Republicans need to be talked to in a civil way.  As much as furor exists in us over people voting for President Bush in 2000 and 2004, we should also understand that a great many of these people are uninformed or get the wrong information.  It's best to always question but do so openly, not putting people on the defensive where they feel like they're being made fun of.

    The important point is to remind Republicans why they should vote Democratic in Nov '08, not why you should have a reason to hate them.  They're human like all of us, even if they don't have the same perspective as we do.

    Look, I battle with my Republican mom all the time over considering to vote for a Democrat for President for once.  Originally she voted for Bush twice but has regretted it.  Now she cannot stand Bush and wants the War in Iraq to end.  And she also happens to be pro-choice and wishes more Republicans were so.  Hence the reason why I'm trying to make her a Democrat although bear in mind, this is my mom, not someone else.

    Mention facts, facts, and more facts.  Cite where you get your information from and be thorough in what you say.  I always try to be objective whenever I talk to anyone, even people who have progressive views like I do.  I feel when I'm too partisan, I loose myself and the grips of reality, even as much as I believe my views are right.

  •  I agrree with rational Rs (0+ / 0-)

    However I just went and played with the irratoinal ones over at Hannity's site and posted this:

      Thanks, Mr. President
      For none the things you've done
      The battles that you've not won
      The way you poisoned us all these years
      And our problems by the ton
      We thank you so much because by this time next year you'll be gone from here.
    So happy B'day, you suck!

    Which got me this:

    "hit and run troll. I generated a perfect storm and sunk his boat."

    I had never heard that term before.  See conservatives can teach you lots of things.

    "Polls are like crack, political activists know they're bad for them but they read them anyways."-Unknown

    by skywaker9 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:47:29 PM PDT

  •  Can You Name That Republican? Because I've (0+ / 0-)

    been hearing them on radio, TV, newspapers, the Congress, the pulpit --and they seem to be a lot ruder than Democrats.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:48:57 PM PDT

  •  I guess because I am a republican (3+ / 6-)

    I am a piece of shit.

    even if im nice to all my Democrat friends (which most of them are). I deserve to be killed.

    well, what im about to say is not exactly intelligent in any way: FUCK YOU!!!

    "Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country" - JFK

    by aug18marine on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:02:53 PM PDT

    •  No, You're not a Piece of Shit (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jkennerl, jim0121

      At least Shit didn't vote for gwb the second time!!  So I hold Shit in less contempt than I hold you (assuming you voted for him twice).

      •  wow, what an ass (2+ / 3-)
        Recommended by:
        bandersnatch, shann
        Hidden by:
        jkennerl, Urizen, rmonroe

        I am damn proud to be a republican for you to say I should be ashamed of who I am. saying I am a bad person because of who I am. I cant even discribe my anger right now.

        "Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country" - JFK

        by aug18marine on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:15:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your anger (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          demoKatz, radmul

          Frankly, I don't give a damn about your anger or that you feel offended.  You've destroyed my country, or at least taken the steps to do so.  You've supported an evil, incompetent and immoral government.  If pointing that out offends you, I'm sorry--sorry you're so dense, so impenetrable by facts or logic--sorry you're so blind to the truth--and sorry you're still allowed to vote.

          You ARE a bad person for who you are.  You should be ashamed.

          No one in this world has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. H. L. Mencken

          by jim0121 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:20:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you guys love to say facts (0+ / 0-)

            and logic, but all I see here is a view clouded by emotion.
            You don't know anything, but you love to think you know more or best.

            "Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country" - JFK

            by aug18marine on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:40:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You might want to pick up a Webster's dictionary (0+ / 0-)

              before you post comments on the internet telling people they don't know anything. Looks a little silly. Just sayin'.

              if you use the term "far left"...you might be a republican.

              by demoKatz on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:42:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  what you deserve is a donut (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      churchylafemme, irishwitch, browneyes

      here, have one on me.

      And "Democrat" is not an adjective, it's a noun. If you really were nice to your Democratic friends, you would refer to their party in the proper way.

      •  So your taking his side (0+ / 0-)

        I see how it is. Im worthless I then.

        im lower then the ground I stand on. thats how you guys see me then. forget all of you.

        "Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country" - JFK

        by aug18marine on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:20:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, but you're in the wrong place (0+ / 0-)

          to get much support. And  you really need to learn to use the cap key.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:22:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, he should get some credit for not using it. (0+ / 0-)

            Considering every hate-filled racist republican email I get is in all caps, could be that he is beginning a journey of self-discovery by letting go of the caps lock!

            Come over to our side, aug18marine! I sense that you are looking to turn your life around beginning with the small step of using all lowercase letters.

            You may not be able to change the world, but at least you can embarrass the guilty.
            - Jessica Mitford

            by Swampfoot on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:45:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  you cursed him out (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          churchylafemme, browneyes

          that earned the donut. You did not help your case by using "Democrat" where you should have used "Democratic". That is a slur that is often used by Republicans to denigrate the Democratic party.

          And your hyperbole about how people think you should be killed is ridiculous. Calm down and stick to the point. That way people are more likely to listen to you.

          As far as how I see you, I have not seen anything from you except cursing and wild assertions that everyone here hates you. So I judge on that basis.

        •  If you are still supporting the war criminal in (0+ / 0-)

          chief than you are correct in your self description.

    •  I don't know if you're (0+ / 0-)

      a piece of shit or not, but I'd really refer it if you learned to use caps occasionally. ANd, no, I don't think you're especially intelligent--or tolerant, either.  Why not go elsewhere  where your beliefs won't be challenged? You'll be much happier. Judging by your  user ID number, you seem to have arrived after Bill O'Reilly went wacko about DKos.

      Tell me, is it rude for Republican Christians, Bush's base and your fellows, to come to my door and tell me that I am going to hell because I belong to a non-Christian faith?  Because if it's rude, then I should just respond to them as you did to this diarist.

      BTW, my husband retired from the military in 2993 after 23 years.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:21:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What my beliefs were not challenged (0+ / 0-)

        I was insulted for being a Republican.

        Im not religious, Ive been here 2 years I just got back.
        Your enbraceing this intolerant view of half the nation and call me intolerant. Amazing how you people think.

        "Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country" - JFK

        by aug18marine on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:34:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You earned your donuts. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          irishwitch

          You are exhibiting the exact behavior you are railing against.  Please refrain from using the term "you people."  If you want respect, please behave respectfully.  

          blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

          by browneyes on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:37:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, we're "you people". (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          browneyes

          You can't have been here two years--not with a user ID of 142,000+. That tells me you didn't join up and thus be able to comment here until a lot more recently than 2 years ago. Around about the time Bill O'Reilly was encouraging  Republicans and conservatives to come here and  harass Dems on a Democratic blog.

          I live in the South. I am surrounded by Republicans and conservatives and the Christian Right. I don't much like them.  Why? Because of the consummate rudeness I've been treated with every time I set foot outside my house.  I've walked into a store and had them close down a checkout line in order to assign someone to follow me around (not to offer help, to make sure I wouldn't steal anything) because I wore a non-Christian symbol. I've had to listen to all sorts of ignorantly rude attacks on non-Southerners, non-Christians, liberals, Democrats and anyone who differs even slightly from the mold of preppy WASP conservative--and the people who did it were in-laws who know I belong to all of those groups.  I never retaliated in kind.

          But I have longed to ask my smug in-laws how they feel about Bush now. The one time I did, though, I got a lecture from a SiL on how Bush kept us safe and there not being a repeat of 9/11 proved it. I simply asked her how many people she knew who lived in NYC or had  had any connection to 9/11. I had a number of friends who worked either in one of the Twin Towers or in the general area. I was lucky--my pals got away safely. And I wasn't willing to sacrifice the constitution so she wouldn't have to think.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:12:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Was the FU necessary? (0+ / 0-)

      If you disagree with the diarist, please explain respectfully.  And please refrain from using such ridiculous hyperbole.  I may not agree with the diarist, but there's no reason to go that far.  

      I didn't HR you for the hyperbolic language, but the FU was out of bounds.

      blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

      by browneyes on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:45:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe it wasn't (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        browneyes

        but, When im angre I don't think rationally

        "Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country" - JFK

        by aug18marine on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:54:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I understand. (0+ / 0-)

          I've made similar mistakes.  I'm sure I'll make them again.  

          I'm probably more conservative than many of my fellow Kossacks.  And I have many good friends here.  Sometimes we completely disagree on a topic and there is heated discussion.  We then go on to another diary where we're backing each other up.  

          I've found that if I remain civil and respectful, I'm treated in kind.  Even by those who disagree.  

          blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

          by browneyes on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:59:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The best weapon to use in such an encounter (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nuketeacher, Sadameatsit

    is to use the Bush Administration against them.

    Your best bet is to show your Republican friend how Bush and his evil cabal have betrayed conservative values.

    When he says he's a Republican say, "Oh, OK, so then you voted for Bush twice, right?"

    Him: "Yep, that's right."

    You: "So you support nation building then, right? I mean, it's our job to spend billions to build democracies around the globe, right?"

    Him: "Well, no, not that."

    You: "And that new Medicare entitlement program, you're all for that, right?"

    Him: "No."

    You: "Well, how about the Bridge to Nowhere. Surely you must see the necessity of spending hundreds of millions to build a bridge to serve 50 people."

    Him: "Not exactly."

    You: "And, of course, you're all in favor of President Obama being able to tap your phone and record your conversations if he decides it's necessary to fight the War on Terror, right?"

    Etc. etc.

    A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having // Swords Crossed

    by quaoar on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:07:27 PM PDT

  •  it costs nothing to be nice (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    churchylafemme, browneyes

    my conversations with Republicans have generally been very civil and respectful, despite our disagreements on many issues of substance. And I have had successful exchanges of ideas with them, though I admit I have not really been forced to modify my own views significantly.

    It's always interesting to learn how the other side thinks, and being rude gets in the way of doing that.

  •  After 8 years of unparalleled incompetence (3+ / 0-)

    Anyone who is still a Republican and still defends the current administration doesn't deserve much consideration.  We've suffered deprivation of our basic civil rights, the destruction of a major American city with no response and we're now experiencing an economic meltdown. We've accumulated an unprecedented level of debt because of a decision to be the first government in the history of the world to cut taxes in a time of war.  Of course that war was unprovoked and unnecessary, poorly managed and dreadfully executed.  Our nation has become despised, feared and mistrusted.  We've responded to none of the the critical threats of our time with any kind of meaningful or effective actions.  

    The people who have done this have wrapped themselves in the flag and dare to call themselves patriots.  No enemy has ever done as much damage to this country as the Republicans in power these recent years.  Exactly why am I supposed to be polite to these folks?

    No one in this world has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. H. L. Mencken

    by jim0121 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:16:32 PM PDT

  •  So how do you feel (0+ / 0-)

    about those Dems, like Hillary, who voted for the war?

    You've got to vote for someone. It's a shame, but it's got to be done.--Whoopi Goldberg

    by Libertaria on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:33:24 PM PDT

    •  I Have a Lot of Anger with Them Too (0+ / 0-)

      It was obvious to me (no connection to government) that the war was being propagandized down our throats.  Hillary knew it was wrong but went with a political calculation that was ultimately wrong.

      We need a noble opposition party in this country.  Starting next year we are going to need a viable Republican Party to keep the Dems in line. Will there be one?  Who knows!

    •  My point being (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SpamNunn

      that yours is a rather simplistic comic-book view of the world. Dems good, rethugs eeevil.

      Study history. If wars and the killing of civilians is your yardstick, you wouldn't have supported the Democratic Truman who launched a nuclear attack and killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians. Or FDR who incarcerated Japanese-American civilians in internment camps.

      You need to get perspective. The issues we progressives care about is best embodied in the Democratic Party. Leave it at that and don't go overboard in demonizing The Other.

      You've got to vote for someone. It's a shame, but it's got to be done.--Whoopi Goldberg

      by Libertaria on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:43:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please (0+ / 0-)

        I know that!!

        In the context of the current failure of a president, I asked the guy if he wasn't embarrassed.  If Barack has the kind of failures that gwb has had, I will be embarrassed to be a Dem, absolutely.

        Right now Republican is the demon.  Some day it may again be Dems.

        •  And then whom (0+ / 0-)

          will you vote for? Idealism and purity can paint you into a very tight corner.

          If you're a pacifist, neither of the two parties is suitable.

          You've got to vote for someone. It's a shame, but it's got to be done.--Whoopi Goldberg

          by Libertaria on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:55:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Absolute Allegiance to a Party is THE Problem (0+ / 0-)

            The koolaide drinkers followed gwb to their demise (possibly permanent) as a viable modern political party.

            I'll find someone to vote for.  Someone will still carry the torch of justice and truth.

    •  not at all pleased (0+ / 0-)

      My first criteria for a candidate this year was that it should be someone who opposed the war from the beginning.  The justification for the war was a transparent sham.  No one of substantial good judgment could have supported it in good conscience.  

      No one in this world has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. H. L. Mencken

      by jim0121 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:08:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You left yourself open (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SpamNunn, browneyes

    "Aren't you embarrassed to be a Republican?" IS rude. Mind you, many Republicans are capable of rudeness of epic proportion. But it's not a very civil way to start a conversation. Intelligent, well intended people can simply disagree.

    •  So We are to Remain Civil (0+ / 0-)

      no matter what the incivility of their war.

      War is unique.  War is not polite, and discussing war as if it were any other issue is simply not correct.  We need to elevate "Going to War" to a different level.  We should demand that if our government claims special secret knowledge that they cannot share, that they be right about it.  When the truth comes out and we discover that the reasons for going to war really didn't exist, the government should resign, honorably.  They didn't, and all need for civility vanished.

    •  My thoughts, exactly. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      browneyes

      Tell all the Truth but tell it slant---
      Success in Circuit lies
      Too bright for our infirm Delight
      The Truth's superb surprise
      As Lightening to the Children eased
      With explanation kind
      The Truth must dazzle gradually
      Or every man be blind---
      - Emily Dickinson

      Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

      by SpamNunn on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 12:54:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This won't win over (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    browneyes

     independents or win  elections .    When people enter that voting booth alone,  they vote their feelings as well as the issues.    This site is looking pretty rude as Obamaphiles  go after McCain with a vengeance.   I guess it's the "McSame"  meme.    I notice  diaries about Clark's   attacks on McCain's service  have dropped off dramatically  on the realization that the episode was a total loser for Dems.    Come on,  Obama criticizing McCain's  lack of  presidential qualifications?    Do you think the general electorate doesn't see the idiocy of that?    The massive bashing of McCain  on sites like this will only result in a sympathy vote  for him.    Young newcomer beats up unfairly on  venerable war hero.   It's stupid  and it is the one thing you can not turn and use against him.

    •  Are you for Obama? (0+ / 0-)

      Just checking.

      If you aren't you shouldn't give advice. If you are your advice is lame. How do you win elections? By being polite? The Republicans have proved that a no-win strategy.

      BTW. Clark did not attack McCain's service. He never said that McCain did not suffer, or wasn't a good or great man for what he did. He never said that McCain didn't experience what he said he had experienced.

      If you want an example of an attack on somebody's service, go back to he Swift Boat attacks on John Kerry in 2004. They said that Kerry didn't do what he said he did, that his medals were undeserved.

      The Presidential election in the United States is virtually a zero-sum game. Perhaps it should be otherwise, but I'm not wasting my vote pretending. Obama 08

      by Party Line Voter on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 04:51:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think that you missed an opportunity (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    A Citizen, browneyes

    for your own personal trip down the rabbithole.

    When he said he was a republican, you should have just asked him, 'why?'

    Three letters, tough question.  Many people are immediately defensive, 'what do you mean why?'  Its not as simple a word as no, but really not that hard.  People frequently don't know.  They will flounder, you know, be fish like, bugging eyes, gaping mouth, gasping, raspy sort of breathing.

    He hands you a gem like, 'I've met Bush, he's a nice man.'

    'Why do you think he's a nice man?'  Just when the republican is starting to relax, thinks he's off the hook, even a little proud of himself, after all who could possibly argue nice, its so bland, so meaningless.  Hoist on his own petard, you can't argue it, but have you ever tried to describe it?

    Because 'he's a regular guy, the kind you want to have a beer with at a barbecue.' Another opening,  'Why would you want to have a beer with an alcoholic?'

    More fish impersonations, 'well, I don't, I mean, he doesn't drink anymore'

    'Why do you want to have a beer with a guy that doesn't drink because he's a recovering alcoholic, you want him to fall off the wagon or something?'

    Stutters, further fish impressions, 'I didn't really mean I wanted to have a drink with him . . .'

    'so he's the kind of guy you really don't want to have a drink with, why is that?'

    Landed fish just hit with fishbat look, "no, no, I would like to have a drink with him!'

    Repeat 'why would you want to have a drink with an alcoholic', republican will likely explode.  If he doesn't, ask him if he has another reason why he's a republican.   He'll hear is wife calling him.

  •  My own personal observation about Republicans.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nuketeacher, rmonroe, jim0121

    When faced with a case of Republican snark (which happens more and more these days....), I usually just tell them,

    "Its a simple statistic that Twenty-eight percent of American adults still support President Bush, and twenty-eight percent of American adults still eat their boogers.  Coincidence?  Methinks not....."

    I firmly believe that Bush supporters should be simply dragged into the street, and HORSE-WHIPPED without mercy or remorse.  They must be made to pay for their ignorance, and insolence.  We and they deserve no less......

    Call it, Friendo......

    by Sadameatsit on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:59:22 PM PDT

  •  you have a good point (0+ / 0-)

    but from a republican point of view you are a murderer if you have an abortion.  now please lets not open that can of worms in any way.  i only wish to point out that there are different points of view and if we really want to change minds there needs to be a premium based on making arguments that will change hearts and minds and not just engender animosity.  hardly anyone believes in this war anymore.  even many of the g.o.p. finally get it.  they may have to have been beat over the head with failure and "sky is falling" disaster to realize that their policies are destructive, and many will not admit it is not a fundamental flaw in the policies but more in the execution, but despite the pain of this bloody lesson we must realize that this is one of the only ways that people learn:  through experiential failure.

    also let me say this in your defense.  your rage is one way you vote for what you believe.  it makes a mark, and there is no equivocation in how you feel.  you can be proud of your anger in that sense.  it is a pure vote for what you feel is "the good."  we incorporate others view unknowningly at times and when they express themselves clearly it makes an impression one way or another.

  •  Your original question seemed (0+ / 0-)

    more than civil. It was his response that was rude.

  •  Gross generalizations suck... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bandersnatch, browneyes

    no matter the label.  It's never fair or accurate to paint any group with one generalization.  Is it true that every republican supported W?  I'm sure most did in 2000. But I personally know eight republicans who quickly dropped W from the "living in reality" list right after the "axis of evil" speech and did not support the war in Iraq.  And with no exception, all the republicans I know personally did not vote for him in '04.  Of these, two of them stayed home in 2000.  I also know quite a few Dems who voted for W in 2000 AND in 04.  And I hold them accountable for their actions.

    So let's all please make the effort to take a few minutes to find out about the people we're labeling.  They might just be ready to turn our way permanently.  

    Or, we can just make sure they don't.

  •  To those who would wish us to be (0+ / 0-)

    polite:

    Perhaps rage is not in your temperament. So when you witness it, you don't understand it, and recoil.

    I can see why, and I admire diarists' and posters' ability to respond to outrage in a rational manner. But not all of us can, or even wish to.

    No, we shouldn't resort to kindergarten behavior when we're angry. (Alas, I've done that, and apologized, and will no doubt do it again, and will apologize.) But there's a difference between rudeness and such incredible rage that your head is about to explode.

    And when you meet someone who says they support the candidate most likely to continue the policies of this administration, which has caused all manner of horror, embarrassment, and pain, in this country and around the globe, you respond in a visceral way. Because that's how you're made. It is not about character. It's about temperament.

    Intellectually I understand why someone would be, or vote, Republican. (Because they can! It's their right!) Intellectually, I respect their choice to do so. But emotionally, I don't understand. It is beyond me.

    I am not saying liberals should feel free to attack random Republicans, who may be nice folks indeed. And we should always strive for rational discourse.

    But when liberals are "rude" to Republicans, it is rarely premeditated. It comes screaming out of the reptilian brain, unbeckoned.

    If you are carrying around guts seething with rage, but are otherwise responsible, you will apologize when your behavior is truly rude. But a lot of us are bulls right now, and Republicans happen to be holding a red flag. We just gotta charge.

    It's been a very, very long 8 years. If we're threatening or completely obnoxious, by all means, call us on it. But if we're just expressing rage--a rational response to the insanity of the past few years--cut us some slack, won't you?

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