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WAY to go KOSSACKS! Your letters to the editor have been published - KEEP THEM COMING!

While there has been no letter yet from an outraged Bishop Martino calling on Scranton Catholic hypocrites to end racism, Read your letters to the editor of The Scranton Times/Tribune here

The Scranton Times/Tribune has published an Editorial: Don't Let Race Determine Vote

But the Catholic hypocrisy continues with a full page ad to Joe Biden from Knights of Columbus Supreme Knight Carl A. Anderson in today's Scranton Times/Tribune: Open Letter to Joe Biden

If you want to give Mr. McCormick and Bishop Martino and the hushing Catholics or the Knights of Columbus a piece of your mind, send a LTE to The Scranton Times/Tribune: Letters@TimesShamrock.com

WRITE WRITE WRITE. KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK. WIN WIN WIN.

My lovely hometown of Scranton was featured Wednesday, Sept. 17 on the front page of The New York Times - wow, I thought, we are the center of the universe. That's been a running joke around this area.

The NYT interviewed a group of my fellow Catholics about the abortion issue Abortion Issue Again Dividing Catholic Votes- and that is a whole OTHER diary for another day - but this quote is what has me SO angry that I literally spit on this Scranton ground today:

One parishioner ruled out voting for Mr. Obama explicitly because he is black. "Are they going to make it the Black House?" Ray McCormick asked, to embarrassed hushing from a half dozen others gathered around the rectory kitchen. (Five of the six, all lifelong Democrats who supported Mrs. Clinton in the primary, said they now lean toward Mr. McCain.)

And he said it likely before his HOLY COMMUNION was even digested.

How about all of the hush hushers??? Did they call him out? No, they told him to keep his views a secret. Shame on them. Oh, Ray, you're not supposed to say that out loud! You are supposed to keep that to yourself until it's time to go into the PRIVATE voting booth. That's where you say that. And what a surprise, five of six lifelong Democrats who are anti-choicers voted for pro-choice candidate HRC in the primary...careful Hypocrite Catholics, your racism is showing...

Did all of these hypocrite Catholics actually vote for pro-choice Hillary Clinton in the primary because they believed in choice? Why one earth did they not support their own views on choice during the primary then? Hmmm.

The anti-choice self-righteousness has always bothered me. I think I finally understand why. Could all of these 'life-protectors' be cloaking their racism behind their anti-abortion stance?

I am starting to look sideways at EVERY person I speak with who cannot carry on an intellgent conversation about the issues and clings to this anti-choice sentiment while our sons and daughters are killed every day in a war they ignore.

These 'lily-white' emphasis on WHITE Catholic hypocrites who demand "respect for life" sit in judgement of others and decide whose life gets respected and whose doesn't have their brains crammed into their skulls upside down and backwards - so sideways is the only right way to look at them.

Back a few weeks ago, The Scranton Times/Tribune, Joe Biden's childhood hometown newspaper, published a story regarding the controversy over whether or not Biden is eligible to receive communion during mass. The Bishop of the Scranton Diocese said no.

The Most Rev. Joseph F. Martino, bishop of Scranton, has strongly supported refusal of Holy Communion for politicians who campaign for or vote in favor of abortion rights.

When asked whether the Democratic vice presidential candidate would be refused Communion should he tour the region, the diocese held firm to its past statements.

"I will not tolerate any politician who claims to be a faithful Catholic who is not genuinely pro-life," Bishop Martino said in a pastoral letter Sept. 15, 2005, and reiterated this week.

"No Catholic politician who supports the culture of death should approach Holy Communion," Bishop Martino said. "I will be truly vigilant on this point."

Read the rest here: Biden risks refusal of Holy Communion

PEOPLE!

I am not staying home this weekend. I don't care if my fingers are bloody from knocking on doors. I am getting to every home I can and I will not rest until November 5. And no matter what, on November 6, I am packing up my stuff, pulling my son from Catholic school, and I am getting the hell out of here. My son will not grow up here in the center of the universe with Mr. McCormick and the dozens of people here whom I have heard say they won't vote for Obama because he is black. I am done with Scranton.

We need every vote people. Please. I am begging you. If you are sitting here blogging and not doing ANY practical work to get votes please, please please do something now. It is so important. There are so many people like Ray McCormick out there. We cannot let this happen.

Please REC this diary if you can people, I want it to stay alive for longer than a half-hour.

Originally posted to the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:09 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  already diaried n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Melody Townsel

    "No way, no how, no Palin war with Russia." --KariQ

    by andrewj54 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:11:36 AM PDT

  •  Ignore the <already diaried> posts (9+ / 0-)

    We can not remind people enough to get out there and get to work.

    I'll be in your state tomorrow!

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

    by resa on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:14:36 AM PDT

    •  Thank goodness! (5+ / 0-)

      It is like the curtain has been lifted, or the sewer lid has been blown off here and the racism is pouring out like I have never, ever seen it before.

      Check out the editorial in the Scranton Times.

      I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

      by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:17:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, it's ugly (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        the girl

        but it's good to see racism that is right out there honest and in the open. It reminds people that it really does exist because frequently they think that it doesn't and that everything is just dandy.

        "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

        by resa on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 02:47:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I was a dandy person (0+ / 0-)

          I had no idea this was an issue until a few days ago, when I had a conversation with someone I thought I liked. Come to find out, she is a racist too. I had absolutely no idea and I've known her for years.

          I've lost at least three or four friends from this election so far. But now it is good that I know the kind of people I was trusting as my friends, and the kind of people I let around my son.

          But until this week, I had no idea. That is why I am so crazy about this issue, I wonder how many others are polly.anna like me.

          I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

          by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 04:32:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  i dunno (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tmo, davidincleveland, Katie71, the girl

    i was kinda hoping obama would paint the whitehouse purple.

    All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

    by SeanF on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:16:04 AM PDT

  •  you know what i think of you; that you feed on the (0+ / 0-)
    emotions of your readers. this is the third such diary in three days.....(u'r welcome)
  •  I am ashamed to be Catholic right now. (9+ / 0-)

    Kossacsks, know that there are five Catholics in my family, me included, that support Obama and want him to win.  I thought "Catholic" meant universal.  Sadly this prick does not represent "Catholic."

  •  Zebra-stripe House (7+ / 0-)

    That's what I'm hoping for! Good camouflage too!

    The Book of Revelation is not a foreign policy manual.

    by Dont Just Stand There on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:20:59 AM PDT

    •  You get rec'd for the Revelation quote ... (3+ / 0-)

      If it were technical though it would be zebra striped.  He is half white/black.  I don't see a problem whatsoever but I guess there are people that are still living in the past.  Color does not matter to me.  Having a smart president is what matters to me.

      "Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest." Mark Twain

      by shiner36 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:26:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I cannot stand Christians (4+ / 0-)

    who pretend to be 'saved' but then say shit like, 'Are they going call it the Black House?' or whatever the hell. You are not a freaking Christian if you're a racist! Period! God forgive that McCormick guy, but I hope he got an ear full from some sane person who knows him.

    To err is human. To forgive, divine.

    by Highwind on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:26:40 AM PDT

    •  I cut out the middle man. I live a good (6+ / 0-)

      life, am nice to people, donate to charity, help animals, volunteer when I can and I don't discriminate against color, religion, mental ability or other.  Why can't we just be good to everyone even if they don't believe in the same fairy tale that we do?

      "Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest." Mark Twain

      by shiner36 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:31:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  culturally (0+ / 0-)

      Usually, Catholics don't run around pretending to be saved. That's mostly a protestant attitude.

      Remember, Catholic doctrine requires you to exhibit actually good works to make it to heaven, while protestants think the faith alone is perfectly sufficient.

      So, in the end, if we are saved or not is decided the guy up there, and certainly not before he has read the whole report.

  •  To Ray McCormick I would reply that when W moved (6+ / 0-)

    in they didn't start calling the white house the sh*thouse, even though he has sh*t for brains, has run a sh*tty administrations, and is scared sh*tless of answering questions from the press--Sound like the Palin/McCain ticket doesn't?

    "The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled." -Plutarch

    by DEQ54 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:28:12 AM PDT

  •  Who knew that Dunder Mifflin represented the (4+ / 0-)

    enlightened part of Scranton.

  •  Not everything that a person does is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    the girl

    a reflection on one aspect of their being.  The fact that this guy is racist doesn't have shit to do with his being Catholic.  

    •  But it has everything to do with him being (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cmnh, davidincleveland

      A HYPOCRITE. And a voter. And why we must get out and canvass this weekend for EVERY SINGLE unregistered or truly undecided voter we can reach.

      I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

      by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:36:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Look, I have huge issues with this guy. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cris0000

        But I also have an issue with you et al judging people who attend mass but are imperfect.  And before you call me out for calling this racist pig "imperfect", understand that when stuff like this gets put up, complete with the editorializing and the stereotyping (and I refer here to commenters, not just diarists), people are hurt by it.  It is no less bad for a person to condemn someone for his/her religious convictions than to condemn someone for his race.  

        •  Well... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          the girl

          The fact that none of the others around the man bothered to speak out means they are complicit.

          According to the Catholic Church's social teachings, racism is a sin. By allowing this blatent public racism to go unanswered the silent complicit ones are committing a sin of omission.

          Jesus was a community organizer; Pontius Pilate was a governor.

          by SlackwareGrrl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 12:30:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Slackware Girl knows her stuff (below) (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SlackwareGrrl

          Like the Catholic Source Book by Rev. Peter Klein says, on page 83 of the third revised edition, The Six Sins Against The Holy Spirit: otherwise known as the Unforgivable Sin, or Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit - The bystanders are committing #3.

          RESISTING THE KNOWN TRUTH

          And Rev. Klein's book goes on to indict the bystanders for "Cooperation in the Sin of Another" in 4 of the 9 possible ways: first as a cause through CONSENT; second by approving of the sin through - concealment or silence; participation; and/or ENJOYMENT OF THE RESULTS.

          See page 82: Abuse of speech: Disrespecting God, Disrespecting Others. Disrespecting Truth.

          Resistance of the truth is far worse than even lying.

          Makes you wonder what the hypocrites are smoking in Scranton to make them think they are going to heaven....

          I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

          by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 12:46:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  So you are saying their religious convictions (0+ / 0-)

          support their racism?

          No, it is the hypocrisy of those convictions, of the church - denying communion to one man who has his convictions, but allowing another to receive it.

          I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

          by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 01:18:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Most of the "religious" people that I know (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        the girl

        spend most of their time being against things because the bible says so...

        There isn't much in the bible that I agree with except the ideas of Jesus.  The whole do unto others , sermon on the mount stuff is good.  Good luck finding a christian around here that would give to the needy (unless they were being seen as they were giving in front of a group)  Why should anyone that considers themselves catholic or christian even consider not voting for Obama because of race?  You don't have to vote for him but when you are representing "God" I would think that he would be against racism and that would send them to hell with me.  

        This probably makes no sense... I am typing in blind rage lol.

        "Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest." Mark Twain

        by shiner36 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:43:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It does if he or others (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      davidincleveland, the girl

      hide behind their Catholicism to mask their racism.

      "I still can't answer that question until somebody answers for me, what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?" GOP VP Candidate Sarah Palin

      by Vita Brevis on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 12:09:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes it does. (5+ / 0-)

      I'm no defender of Catholicism or any other religion, but racism is unambiguously against Church dogma, and racist Catholics are by definition bad Catholics.  This puts a burden on Bishop What's-his-Face (whom I don't have enough regard for to scroll up to find his name0: will he refuse Communion to declared racists?

      -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

      by Rich in PA on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 12:13:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's exactly why I am waiting for his letter (0+ / 0-)

        Reminding Catholics about their faith and checking the communion line for people's view on what color the white house should be - BEFORE THEY GET IT.

        Why is he not refusing communion to those who support the death penalty? Or torture? or who apply for marriage licenses for their second wife while still married to the first?

        I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

        by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 12:50:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It could be because Catholicism is bullshit! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          the girl

          But there is reason to give some benefit of the doubt, because Catholicism is much better on the seamless-commitment-to-life business than all but the most liberal (and therefore non-mainstream) Protestant denominations.  But the burden is on Catholic bishops to walk the walk, and in Scranton I'm not seeing it.

          -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

          by Rich in PA on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 01:20:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I grew up in Scranton too (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    davidincleveland, blueocean, the girl

    And my household was staunch republican.  Parents dragged me every Sunday (we woke up to church music blaring on the stereo on Sunday's) to Westminister Presbyterian Church.  The old man was a deacon and the minister was Mark Thompson.  Gov. Scranton showed up 2x/year - usually around Easter.

    Immediately after spending Sunday school and service, I would invariably get smacked in the mouth from the front seat by either parent for something I said about anything.  I thought, Gee, is this how so-called christians are supposed to act?  I wouldn't even make it home to 1221 Ash street without getting smacked - a belt/board - whatever was handy one I got home.  Crew cuts for more serious trouble.

    I couldn't wait to get outa that town.  Left at 17 and thankfully never been back for more than a day.  Both parents are dead so I'll never be back again.

    Get outa that shithole and leave the bigots behind to the town that has been dying since the coal played out.

    And God so loved the world that He brought forth George W. to destroy it

    by anthracite on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:37:55 AM PDT

  •  I spent (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    davidincleveland, the girl

    two of my ten Pennsylvania years in West Scranton.  I know full well the deal in this area.  I know that these good folks would not elect a non white to be dog catcher, let alone any higher elective office.
    Just the way it is.
    Just as some Catholic priests supported the IRA and Sinn Fein, so they will support and advocate through organizations like the KOC undermining a national candidate because of race.
    The thing is talking with some of my F&AM associates from Penna. there has been zero talk along these lines within that circle.
    Now we know how it is Hazleton Mayor Barletta is ahead in a heavily democratic PA-11 district.

  •  I hope they never need a black doctor (4+ / 0-)

    surgeon, teacher, police officer, or paramedic.

    Maybe you can ask these people what they would do if they or their children were drowning and the paramedic who showed up to save you or your baby was black. Would you send him/her away?

    Maybe they don't feel like our lives are hanging in the balance, but with McCain making overtures to nuclear-enabled nations, its not a distant possibility.

    Perhaps you could engage them further about what it is that they think about his being black that bothers them. Intelligence? Revenge? Resentment? I think these are all opening points to real discussion. DONT thwart these discussions and dont dismiss them out of hand. I dont have the opportunity to talk frankly with people who feel this way b/c I'm black and they wont open up to me about it for fear of reprisal (see? that's part of the reason we cannot move past racial issues is because we're all to quick to use labels 'racist').

    Ask them what their vision of a black president is. Maybe they fear he's not smart enough. Maybe they feel he'll ignore white people of America. Who knows. But any liberal should use these opportunities NOT to convert those with racial prejudices necessarily but to understand the mindset first and foremost. Many times, when people can discuss their feelings in an open non-judgmental way, they can, for the first time, begin to examine themselves. Is that what therapy  is all about?

    Please try it.

    •  would they refuse blood from a person of other (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      davidincleveland, the girl

      than white?  How about mouth to mouth if they needed it?  I find bigotry ends when their life is on the line

    •  They've told me (0+ / 0-)

      one after another: they honestly believe that Obama will take all the money from white people and give it to black people.

      I've heard that again and again. Honestly, it is what they believe.

      I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

      by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 01:02:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  well that's a useful starting point (0+ / 0-)

        and I think its a good place to go.

        Ask them WHY they think he would do something like that (that'll help them get to the truth of their feelings which revolve around guilt). Here's something for you to keep in mind:

        many older whites benefited from the unjust racial imbalance in this country. Many of the beneficiaries of the system were good people who knew in their hearts it was wrong but never really spoke up. They FEAR that IF blacks ever got the power that whites had they would misuse it in exactly the same way. This is at the heart of this irrational fear about Obama "giving money or privileges to the blacks".

        If you can somehow get them to understand that this is where their fear is coming from you may be able to make some progress. I guarantee you THEY have never considered it.

        Explain to them (if they finally "get it") that you understand that fear. But that that type of corruption and one-sided power/powerlessness could never happen. Remind them that only 13% of Americans are black. Remind them that in South Africa whites thought the same thing. And THERE blacks were the majority. There was no reprisal there and the economy is moving upward because people have learned to put the past in the past and work together. Finally encourage them to overcome their fears and have faith in the basic decency of people.

        •  I think you are right (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mdmslle

          But I think trying to explain it to someone like our friend Ray in the NYT article is a waste of time.

          However, if there is someone who is simply 'afraid' and has been swayed by the racist talk, that could work. I am just sitting here though, shaking my head at my hometown's best kept secret.

          I had NO idea people here still thought that way. But like the Scranton Times pointed out in the editorial, how would I have an idea? There hasn't been a time when this area has been tested. That is what I am afraid of.

          But I will keep doing what I can. We are canvassing tomorrow and next Friday I am hosting a DEBATE party for our local volunteer office at our tiny little home. My son and I are really excited about that. He's going to make some signs and decorate our living room.

          I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

          by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 01:55:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  good on you (0+ / 0-)

            use it if and when and where you can. I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers. Its tough I know. We'll win thins thing, don't worry.

            BTW I'm in Florida so I get a lot of hangups and refusals as well. Shrug it off. We'll still win this thing.

  •  "black house" comments upset me, but (3+ / 0-)

    disingenuous questions from pundits who keep asking "why can't Obama close the deal?" and "why does Obama have a problem with Archie Bunker working-class white voters?" and "why does Obama have a problem with Harriet Christian older white women voters?" when they KNOW shyt like this is going on upsets me even more.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
    47 days until the '08 elections. Let's paint the country BLUE!

    by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 12:08:39 PM PDT

    •  If the pundits talked about race seriously (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority, the girl

      white voters would stop watching the pundits. So they try to talk around it.

      Jesus was a community organizer; Pontius Pilate was a governor.

      by SlackwareGrrl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 12:48:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's why actually (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority

      I was in shock this week when person after person all of a sudden started this racist stuff around here. I hadn't heard any of it. I thought it was behind us.

      That is why I think diaries that expose this are helpful, because hopefully they wake us up and move us to get out and make sure these people do not take control of this election.

      I honestly thought people were voting for HRC because they wanted her to win. I had no idea there was a huge contingent who just wanted Obama off the ballot. I am very discouraged.

      I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

      by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 01:05:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's pretty simple and should be posed simply.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bustacap, davidincleveland, the girl

    ...to the white Democrats of Scranton and similar regions, because all regions with large numbers of racist white Democrats have something in common: they're dying.  People, even racists, aren't fools and they see it all around them.

    Give them a clear choice, because they won't have another chance: They can vote against their interests as an expression of their racism, and Scranton will continue its road to extinction; or they can swallow their racism (if only for a moment) and vote their interests, and give their town a fighting chance.  If they make a bad decision, they're the ones who will be stuck in a dying community--Barack Obama will do very nicely for himself, thank you very much.

    -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

    by Rich in PA on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 12:10:58 PM PDT

    •  That is why I think it is important (0+ / 0-)

      for out-of-towners to write LTE's about their distaste for Scranton's highlight in the NYT.

      It might shame people into thinking that the rest of the world isn't like them, and maybe change some minds about this election. We need other voices here other than these whispers behind closed doors.

      I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

      by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 01:08:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  From within the community would be better. (0+ / 0-)

        This is bitter-pill stuff, and if at all possible I'd like it to be delivered by people who live in the community.

        -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

        by Rich in PA on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 01:18:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  My letter is waiting (0+ / 0-)

          in the paper's hands.

          I am sure the community will write, but unfortunately, unless you read the NYT, there was no coverage of it here, except for the editorial. People I know didn't see the article.

          I am not asking for people to slam Scranton, I am asking for people to point out the hypocrisy and urge people to wake up and see it and vote.

          I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

          by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 01:24:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  It seems to me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    the girl

    the Church under Ratzinger is deliberately tailoring its dogma to favor the GOP.  Abortion? Absolute evil! Death Penalty? Not so much.

    •  would you mind providing evidence (0+ / 0-)

      aside from a qoute of a single churchgoer in the NYT?

      As far as I can see, the Pope doesn't wield enough influence on this matter in the US, and would probably not argue for McCain anyway.

      •  Do you remember (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        the girl

        all those bishops, most notably Raymond Burke of St. Louis, saying that Kerry was to be denied commumion if he was in their diosceses.  At the time, the Vatican espressed  support for the actions of those bishops.  They've done the same for other pro-choice Democrats as well.  However, for pro-choice Republicans? Welll.. no, except for Burke similarly barring Giuliani earlier this year. And I've not seen denial of communion for politicans who, while anti-abortion, are pro-death penalty.

      •  First of all (0+ / 0-)

        There is a reason members of the KKK wear sheets to cover their heads.

        Second, many more people are saying it, but they just aren't dumb enough to say it during an interview with the media like our friend in the NYT.

        I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

        by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 01:10:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  No. (0+ / 0-)

    No, the abortion issue is not suddenly a arece issue just because Obama is black.

    And the NYT article you quote brings up an interesting point. It is one thing to pursue policies that might differ from Catholic positions. It is a completely different thing to start debating or even falsifying those Catholic positions by means of your elevated political stature.

    While the Church would do well to keep a reserved profile in the first case, every politician trying to mess with the church's teaching itself should expect massive, open, and probably intellectually crushing opposition.

    And that's the way it is supposed to be. I don't need Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden (or Antonin Scalia, for that matter) to explain the Bible and catholic faith to me; thanks, I already pay my priest for that.

    And as for racists like that McCormic guy, the church neither has a monopoly nor even a preponderance of them. You find them all over the place.  The last thing democrats need is to paint catholics racist. Really. The abo fucking lutely last thing.

    Haver you actually read the Knights of Columbus open letter to Biden? It is, above all, eminently correct. It is conciliatory in tone, and it stresses not politics but faith and life. Biden might do well to just take up that offer for talk, and to engage in that dialogue.

    After all, "safe, legal and rare" is not so bad an objective. The last thing anybody needs here is wars of faith.

    So, this particulary crusade of yours is not helpful:

    If you want to give Mr. McCormick and Bishop Martino and the hushing Catholics or the Knights of Columbus a piece of your mind, send a LTE to The Scranton Times/Tribune: Letters@TimesShamrock.com

    What is that supposed to effect, except to alienate Catholics as a group?
    What is your point with the Knights?

    •  You obviously didn't read my entire diary (0+ / 0-)

      I am one of those Catholics, with a child in Catholic school. I went to Catholic school.

      You are missing the point - and the word HYPOCRITE in front of the word Catholic.

      You can disagree all you want.
      The ONLY reason religion is a factor in this or any other election - is because the REPUBLICANS want it there to whitewash what they are doing in reality.

      All I want is to win on the issues, and be aware of the enemies out there and use our outrage to get us moving.

      If you don't agree, you have that right.

      I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

      by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 01:15:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  your diary reads ... (0+ / 0-)

        ... as an exercise in Catholic bashing.

        Especially your completely unexplained attack on the Knights of Columbus letter.

        I come from a tradition of political Catholicism. If anything, German Catholics learnt from history that they weren't political enough, and not involved enough, when times called for it.

        So, applying a yardstick of moral principles to a politician's agenda is well advised.

        I object to making abortion the single defining issue, though, and many Catholics in the US do so as well, apparently. Casting that one bigot as a typical catholic - as you did - seemed to me less helpful in this debate.

        •  No, it reads like (0+ / 0-)

          A Catholic who wants consistency in her faith, as do many Catholics or should I say, ex-Catholics. Which is why they have sent Hatchetman Martino to Scranton, to close the churches and schools because there aren't enough priests and isn't enough money.

          Why is the Catholic church failing? Because it is failing the true Catholics who are Catholic because of their belief in God, not political causes.

          The hypocrisy and inconsistency in the leadership of the church has lead to this problem and I don't believe the Catholic Church should be making this a one-issue election.

          What about condemning the war? What is its position on torture? What about healthcare? What about the lying?

          Many people are discouraged by the Catholic Church here, moreso because of this particular bishop. For his hypocrisy to  be put up to the light and exposed, it is a good thing for those Catholics who feel discouraged but are still trying to be obedient to the church.

          By exposing the church's hypocrisy, it is with the hope of saving it. Kinda like cutting off your leg when it is stuck under a boulder. Either cut it off or you die. It doesn't make it easier to cut it off though.

          I felt good today because I fought for the good of my country - My 8-year-old son after his first canvass.

          by the girl on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 02:05:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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