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First, a disclaimer.  I am both very affluent, and invested.  I own two homes, one of which is undergoing substantial renovations, paid for in cash.  Indeed, everything I purchase is paid for in cash.  I do have one credit card for convenience, which is paid, in full, every month.  I am not in debt.  The various fluctuations in the market do effect my capital holdings, but do not have any impact on my over all well being.  I have a tiny SS check which would not cover my utility bills.  I'm very healthy, and health care is not my personal issue.  This collection of circumstances, not all of my own doing, makes me very reluctant to comment on the current market crisis but I really can't help myself.  I am a Liberal who feels I am my Sister's Keeper, and I care very much about the same issues that move you, because we really are all in this together.

The growing panic among the money changers is all your fault.  Just ask them...

Does anyone else see a further division between the Two Realities, here?

CNBC, MSNBC, CNN, and Bloomberg TV are parading a group of commentators who lay the blame for the bailout failure at the feet of a stupid public, a public that "just doesn't get it".  They are desperately trying to convince you that if you have the temerity, in a Democracy, to contact your Representatives and express disapproval for this Bill, you are cutting off your nose to spite your poor face.  Why would they do that?

One of the techniques that is flourishing at the moment is to try to defend this bailout by overwhelming you with technical issues.  Stopping shorts, mark to market, the LIBOR to TED ratio, you won't get a loan, businesses will fail, you will loose your job, the sky is falling.  See?  You just don't understand and should step back and let the experts make these decisions.  

Then, there was the thrice mentioned comment on Bloomberg and CNBC yesterday, that the market might well try to convince Congress of the seriousness of the situation by a giant sell off.  Imagine that!  The Big Money has the resources to move the market to make a political point and if your 401k, or pension, or Money Market accounts take a big hit, well it's for your own good, after all.

Little John Boehner blamed the bruised feelings of his Hot House Flowers for failing to do his job as Minority Leader.  John McCain blamed Barack Obama for...something or other.  The Democrats blamed Paulson, the President blamed Congress, and the markets blame you.

If you step back for a moment it is very difficult to view this whole dust up as any thing more than just another insider game that failed to achieve the desired results.  And, it's all your fault.

I have been reading every bit of technical information, both here and in the press, as well as monitoring the net and switching between the financial channels on TV.  It is clear to me that the very people who drove us into this ditch are now trying to place the blame on everyone but themselves.  They made a mess and it's your fault.  They are losing money and it's your fault.  Their toys are being taken away, and it's your fault.  If the mess, driven by greed and stupidity, explodes in their faces, IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT.

There are no disinterested players in the public sphere.  There are no disinterested observers, and no disinterested commentators.  Everyone who opens their mouth on the financial markets has a horse in this race and if they lose, it's gonna' be your fault...

Shrouded by their millions, they have no compunction against bringing down the whole house of cards, and punishing those of us who live on "Main Street", here in the "real economy", to cover their losses.  If they can't pull it off, believe me, it will be your fault.

I have read every comment, in every financial diary, during the past two days.  (Yeah, I know, I know...)  I have learned that there are people here who know a lot more about the markets than I.  What I don't know is the degree of their personal interest in insuring a specific outcome.  One that might well protect their own interests at the sacrifice of mine, and yours.  That old saying, "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, bamboozle 'em with bull shit" is suspiciously creeping into the whole discussion.

One thing I do know.  This is not our fault.  We did not set up the conditions for this mess.  We did not play in the hedge fund, sub-prime, toxic paper sand box.  And, whatever the outcome, exercising our democratic right to tell our Representatives to vote the package down, does not make this our fault, either.

Originally posted to Granny Doc on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:47 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

What surrounds us therefore is a vast tapestry of lies, upon which we feed. Harold Pinter

by dlcox1958 on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 11:46:12 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

  •  A brave and socially responsible admission, sir. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    I will heretofore understand that any financial advice or feedback you may offer is not to be taken seriously.

    As for your taking responsibility for the high-stakes debt crisis, more courage and forthrightness, however, I'm confidant you couldn't have consumed that many groceries.  

    Thank you.  

    "This is a fight for the future. And it's a fight we must win...Obama is my candidate. And he must be our President." Hillary Clinton, DNC, August 26, 2008

    by kck on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 12:15:30 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  i' m in to lines (24+ / 0-)

    so I'll stand on the leftside....
    Now off to the gym will read laytor, alligator...

    droogie6655321 should lead you to a link to donate to a shelterbox........

    by TexMex on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:50:19 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  It's DEFINITELY my fault. (99+ / 0-)

    One of my small-business clients had his LOC cancelled last week, which means it's unclear when he'll be paying me for invoices that now date back to May.

    DEFINITELY my fault that the bank pulled his credit line. What the fuck was I thinking?

    "Oh, TV. Is there anything you can't do?" -- Homer Simpson

    by Melody Townsel on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:52:39 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  You read ALL of the diaries and ALL comments?? (35+ / 0-)

    What kind of masochist are you?

    Tipped and rec'd, not necessarily because I agree with your take, but it was an enjoyable distraction from the other mess that's littering the pond right now.

    "We're half awake in a fake empire."

    by Alec82 on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:54:11 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  I'm no Granny basher (24+ / 0-)

    and I always go to the left anyway ;)

    If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -- George Orwell

    by nilocjin on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:57:34 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  My feeling is (12+ / 0-)

    that the root cause of the problem is the weakness of the underlying assets, the mortgages held my millions of Americans, and that the way to fix the problem is to make the underlying assets performing assets again.  Help four to six million American families who have already defaulted or face default get their mortgages out of arrears and FORCE the banks, etc. to restructure the mortgages based on the current fair market value, retire the old mortgages by paying them off, and issue affordable mortgages at reasonalble fixed rates.

    The crisis in confidence in the credit markets is based on the holders of the assets not having a clue about the value of the assets, not the value of the assets themselves.  Restore confidence in the value of these assets by making them sure to perform, and by knowing their true value.  If that is known, then there is confidence in their value and rate of return.  Insure the mortgages, don't throw money into a financial black hole and try to fill it up.  Black holes suck, you may never be able to fill it up.

    So, by spending hundreds of billions less, you help Main Street by helping millions of Americans keep their homes, you make the value of the assets known, and confidence in the value of the assets permits liquidity to flow in the capital markets.

    Please, politicians, at least think about this approach.

    It is time to renounce fear and go out and kick some Republican Ass

    by Ohiodem1 on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:01:45 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  I listened to a guy on CNBC put all the blame, (45+ / 0-)

    all of it, on greedy house flippers, people who bought their first homes with sub-prime mortgages and people who spent beyond their means.  It was a thinly veiled attack on race, the lower classes, and how if they just knew their place we would not be in this mess.

    Many years ago it was so hard to get a loan for a home, a car, or even a credit card.  Women couldn't even get one without a co-signer.  This was because the loaner (local bank or savings and loan) made the loan, kept in in house and they personally were responsible for screening their applicants.

    The fault lies not with the person applying for the loan, even if they lie on their application, it lies with those who make the loans to ensure that the income, credit history and net worth of the individual was verified.

    This type of screening went out the window when the banks could sell their loans.  

  •  Right on, Granny Doc. I agree. (38+ / 0-)

    The Paulson Plan is a power play for dictatorial control over the economy - a Patriot Act for financial engineering of survivor bias.  Paulson will choose the survivors, and everyone will line up and fall into place to get some of this $1 trillion he gets to hand out like Santa.

    As I posted on another thread, this comes from the Treasury/SIFMA secret midnight briefing call Sunday at about 28:50:

    Q:  There’s something in the draft legislation that says Treasury will consider then long term viability of a firm when deciding whether to grant insurance or purchase the assets.  So if you have a stronger firm that would make Treasury more likely to do which option – purchase the assets or insurance?  

    A:  Our point is if we’re putting capital in the system we think that healthy firms are more likely to deploy that capital and firms that are failing or on the verge of failing are gong to be likely to protect that capital and not put it to work.  So all things considered our preference would be to help the healthy banks become even healthier.

    MP3 -
    Bittorrent -

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?" - Abraham Lincoln

    by LondonYank on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:09:07 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  This blame thing is driving me crazy. The (27+ / 0-)

    Republicans have treated our country to four major disasters:  9/11, Katrina, Iraq and the meltdown of the economy.  And every single time, they say "blame should come later."

    Well no it shouldn't.  Blame should come NOW.  And it should be distributed liberally over the heads of every one of them!

  •  No Matter How This Mess is Resolved, (8+ / 0-)

    the people & organizations who caused it won't have to pay for it or be held accountable; "regular" American people will. We always do.

    "Hold back the edges of your gowns, Ladies, we are going through hell." William Carlos Williams' intro to "Howl"

    by CityLightsLover on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:29:21 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Fault and no fault (10+ / 0-)

    Not the fault of failing mortgages, it's the fault of Wall Street players gaming the system and a government that turned a blind eye.

    The fault of ALL of our leaders (even Obama) for not placing themselves in the national spotlight EXPLAINING this situation to the American people. The truth.

    The fault of the American people to the extent that that they are bitching and groaning and not demanding truth before they hop on the solutions.

    That's what we need to do, because the American public does not understand this mess and all aspects of it. All they hear is "sketchy people were allowed to take out mortgages they did not qualify for."

    Besides the mismanagement, deception, and greed, there's where we can all assign blame to ourselves: we're not out there demanding our leaders tell us the truth. That mortgages are only part of the story, that Wall Street made a casino out of our collective homes and no one watched them as they rolled and rolled and rolled and rolled the dice.

  •  I've got some real blame.... (6+ / 0-)

    it falls on those that thought selling CDS's was just a free batch of money every month with no strings attached.

    Bring the WAR home

    Starve the corporate beast, buy local!

    by EthrDemon on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:41:23 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  I'm a bit younger, but in the same boat. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, dolphin777, magicsister

    no bashing.

    "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

    by zic on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:46:24 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  never bash grannydoc; bad karma comes for such (6+ / 0-)


    Again you put the  focus on reality, not what the pundits want us to beleive.


    John MCCAIN: No mind, no morals, no integrity, certainly no honor, a hollow shell, a husk of what used to be a maverick.

    by bglv on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:46:40 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Yep! Heard the same thing, starting with (15+ / 0-)

    Brian Williams last night. He, and the only experts he "interviewed" (Market Barbie and some bald guy,) were all, "What could people possibly be thinking??!!  They're simply overcome with anger and it's making them too stupid to see what's in their best interests!!  The only Congresscrtters who voted know were the ones with tough re-election contests!!  These voters who called them demanding a No vote, well, THEY'LL change their tune when things start disintegrating around them!!  And they WILL!!  You bet your sweet patootie!!  They're DOOOOOOOOMED!!!"

    Seriously.  Those are direct quotes.  (heh)

    Anyway, my reaction was instantly the same as yours.  I've been in sales for forty years - as both a buyer and as a seller.  I can hear a chain-yanking from a mile away and these folks were being incredibly clumsy about it.

    Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.

    by sxwarren on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:49:09 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  There'll be NO bashing from me, Granny Doc! n/t (3+ / 0-)
  •  We TRIED listening to the experts. (5+ / 0-)

    Also known as The First 219 Years of the Existence of America.

    We're gonna try something else now, OK?

    The above comment is probably disrespectful of John McCain's military service somehow.

    by RickMassimo on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:55:38 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  It's My Fault. BFD. (6+ / 0-)

    Of course it's my fault. I have teenagers. Everything that happens is my fault, isn't it?

    Lessee, what can we do about it?

    1. Tell 'em to go to their rooms and clean up the mess. Nah, won't work, somehow they got bigger than us.
    1. Take away the car keys. They don't get to run around on their own until they learn to behave. Oh, and clean up the mess.

    No matter how cynical I get, it's just never enough to keep up. -- Lily Tomlin

    by frostyinPA on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:56:18 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Right now the Moonie times is blaming the Dems (4+ / 0-)

    But not the 2008 congress the 2002 congress, you see they wanted regulations but Chris Dodd and Clinton would not play ball, no not that Clinton the other one.  Remember 2002?  Republican congress and president, well aparently its all their fault.  Oh and Fannie and Fredie becasue they distorted the maarket (despite being private companies).

    Last week it was minorities and immigrants who should never have been given mortgages, that despite the fact that the actual rate of default on sub prime mortgages ia 19.2 to 19.4 percent for whites, hispanics and blacks.  Yup every one defaults at the same rate.

    But of course you are right its my fault, I will now go and write a personal check to cover my share of the bail out.  

    Sarah Palin Proud Socialist

    by Bloke on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:59:39 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Good Morning, Doc! (4+ / 0-)

    Yet again, this is a political crisis, first and foremost.

    The hardcore pro-rescuers are claiming the sky is falling because this is the only option.

    The only reason it's the only option is because it's... yet again, a total absence of a Plan B, by the same people who had no second option for Quick And East Victory™ in Iraq. Sadly, Chris Dodd threw in the towel and turned Plan B into an amendment of The Plan™.

    I was in favor of the idea of a bailout, but parts of Paulsen's plan are laughable. Like giving a majority to his former company.

    You see, the fewer banks we have, the worse this could get. While the deal was a doorway to corruption, an increasingly narrowed market will probably be far more venal.

    But this still a political ghost we're being scared with, and these sonsofbitches did not panic when Main Street went bust 8 years ago or now.

    Wall Street pirates loot this country, destroy people's lifelong work and their pensions. If you need to execute someone, shoot those motherfuckers.

    by Nulwee on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:07:14 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  It's all my fucking fault. No snark. (5+ / 0-)

    If I hadn't voted for Nader in 2000, if I'd actually sucked it up and worked to put more (instead of better) Democrats in office, perhaps we'd have been spared some of the pain in 2008.  If I'd have done more than hold my nose and vote for Kerry in 2004, maybe this administration would have had 4 less year to fuck it all up.

    Y'all have my apologies, officially.

    Thankfully, I'm working on the right side of history this year.

    "The goal of an argument should not be victory, but progress." - my fortune cookie

    by Black Leather Rain on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:10:03 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  never, ever... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, dolphin777, magicsister

    bash a granny. i've been saying for the last week that this is just another fear mongering situation being manipulated to screw everyone but the big boys. and granny can you please adopt me?
    tung sol

    'cause you're the green manalishi with the two prong crown--Peter Green, Green Manalishi

    by tung sol on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:16:54 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Because it's NOT our fault (5+ / 0-)

    there should be no bailout bill for Wall Street if it's not funded by rescinding the Bushian tax cuts for the filthy rich.
    Because it's NOT our fault, let's not use the taxes of average Americans to throw more money at those who are responsible for this mess, and should be the ones to pay for it.

    We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

    by Lepanto on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:23:23 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  I blame... (4+ / 0-)

    teh Gay marriage.

    "Morbo congratulates our gargantuan cyborg president. May death come quickly to his enemies."

    by Dread972 on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:27:03 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for the dose and sanity and (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

    by MsWings on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:28:08 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Brinksmanship: Middle-class vs. Powerbrokers (15+ / 0-)

    The time has finally come. Powerbrokers are desperately trying to jam their agenda down the throats of the middle-class.

    The middle-class has it's Congressional representatives actually paying attention (for a fricking change). This, alone, is a revolution.

    My net worth is only a few tens of thousands of dollars and I'm 63 years old. But, dammit, I'll take the hit necessary to ensure the governmental philosophy set forth by our founders. I'll deal with the hardship I know will come from telling the self-serving bastards in the railroad-the-stupid-public class to stick it up their collective butts.

    Whoever is "at fault" for failing to pass this travesty ... Thanks.

    Give me hardship if it saves our form of government.

    Give me desperation if it results in a true Democracy.

    Give me poverty if it creates opportunity for our grandchildren.

    Give me hunger, if it finally ends hunger in our nation.

    Give me sickness, if it, at last, allows our citizens a guarantee of healthcare.

    Give me beatings if it stops authoritarian force in place of justice.

    I'm old enough to deal with those things. Get this over with and if some people have to suffer to make it happen, I'll volunteer.

    Why would I volunteer? Because the decline of our nation's commitment to it's citizens has hurt my personal life for more than 30 years. I don't much care what I go through anymore, but, if it can help make things better ... bring it on.

    I stopped counting angels on pinheads, so, obviously, it's a waste of time to discuss it with the pinhead.

    by FeloniousMonk on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:31:35 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Heck no. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, dolphin777

    No bashing here.

    I am actually going to start a charter of the "Granny Doc" fan club.

    You are an inspiration to women everywhere.

    Not the church. Not the state. Women will decide their fate.

    by JaciCee on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:45:40 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  I think Paul Volker (5+ / 0-)

    explained the situation in 2 words:

    asymetrical information

    Home owners were put into mortgages that they did not understand and couldn't afford. Meanwhile Wall Street churned up the production of these mortgages as feedstocks for the mortgage backed derivatives.
    To increase profits on the bundled mortgages, Wall Street sliced and diced the P&I cash flows of these underlying mortgages to sell in traunches to buyers who probably had no clue about the risks.

    asymetrical information

    And as Volker said, the models for these impossibly complex derivatives are not dependable because it ultimately is human emotion that drives a market, most especially a highly leveraged market during times of stress.

    Only re regulating the markets housing and all finance will bring the transparency needed for good decisionmaking by both homeowners and investors.

  •  Granny's right! It's all your fault, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, dolphin777

    because you are a left-wing, arugula-loving, latte-drinking, hybrid-driving bunch of elitists!

    Let me raise my glass and join you in a toast to us, the reality-based community.

  •  Curse you, Granny! (6+ / 0-)

    One of the techniques that is flourishing at the moment is to try to defend this bailout by overwhelming you with technical issues.  Stopping shorts, mark to market, the LIBOR to TED ratio, you won't get a loan, businesses will fail, you will loose your job, the sky is falling.  See?

    No, I don't see.  You can loose your faithful lightning, but you can only lose your job.

    Everything else, pretty damned good.  :)

    "People should not be afraid of their government; governments should be afraid of their people." --V

    by MikeTheLiberal on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 10:07:11 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Well, Granny (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, dolphin777

    you have more capital on the line than me.  As of now, all of my income comes from the sweat of my brow (OK and the wife's brow too).  I did help start a company and made an OK, but not life changing some of dough out of it, but I'm not J.P. Morgan by any means.   My investments are all in my 401k.

    I feel like I've dropped down a rabbit hole.  Me? I'm The Man?   Is this The Prisoner or something?

    My position is this: if you let a problem fester long enough, sooner or later you come to a point where options start to disappear.  I don't know where that point is.  Nobody does.  This could well be it.  We should have been dealing with this problem back in 2006, when we finally got some power in Congress. The ultimate responsibility for the failure of the bill is so widely distributed, it's hardly worth thinking about.    There's always something we could have done, in hindsight.

    I also know that when you make a mistake on a crucial decision, it means you get to make a lot more crucial decisions.  In retrospect, Gore conceding for the good of the country wasn't good for the country.   Giving Bush authorization for "possible" invasion of Iraq was bad, so we then ended up having to decide to stand up to him on funding the war.  The list goes on.

    If we screw this one up, we'll manage somehow.   Somehow the unbearable gets to feel normal, that we've learned over the last eight years.

    I'd just like people to get their heads out of the unproductive space, where we're throwing and avoiding blame, where we're talking past ourselves into the kind of "victory" that really is just sorting the community into groups that don't talk to each other.

    I've lost my faith in nihilism

    by grumpynerd on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 11:08:15 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Important point I keep in mind (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, dolphin777

    Many people were steered into ARMs who actually qualified for conventional fixed rate instruments.  Those people definitely should not be blamed!

    And I'm not especially prosperous, but am careful about my circumstances.  I have a mortgage, but it's a modest one.  I live within my means, bla bla bla.  So it annoys me when they suggest it's MY fault.  

    John McCain voted against health care for kids.

    by Land of Enchantment on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 11:47:54 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  The only fault (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrkvica, Granny Doc

    that belongs to the American public is voting for Bush the second time.

    Thereby disproving the maxim:

    Foll me once, shame on you
    fool me twice......

    WONT get fooled again.

    Oh yes you were.

    and yes, I know, present company excepted. But while we are on it, compare the Dem campaign now with the one in 2004.

    Why couldn't you do it then?

    Furriner bashing line forms on right here ....>

    The Number of the Beast 78-22

    by Deep Dark on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 12:03:31 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  There is something to say for the Chinese system (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrkvica, Granny Doc

    where all the corporate malefactors would have to parade before the public and "confess" their sins in public.

    And for the Japanese system where a failed political leader would have to "confess" his faults and resign.

    "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" ----John McCain

    by mkfarkus on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 12:19:06 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Love you, Granny, for saying this! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc
  •  No bashing here..... (0+ / 0-)

    Granny tells us now that she is a Rich Bitch. Well, good for granny -- but I am not at all sure she needed to drag in that distraction. [Keep an eye on your portfolio, Granners!] But, old dear, here is my point: We are NOT specifically to blame; in the effective sense, our bankers and one Senator Phil Gramm are most to blame. Obviously what is really to blame is human nature and greed.
       Greed can be controlled and legislatively contained, as long as the body politic has enough intelligence and information to make sound judgment. The Republicans have systematically tried to govern us by jingoism, cant, fear and all that b. s. you talk about, so in the most meaningful sense it really IS largely epublicans are responsible for the curren debackle. And they can't recognize that and cure it, can they?
        The way to start out of the abyss is to
                  VOTE DEMOCRATIC
    as usual!

  •  it's a tectonic fault, in the regulatory fissures (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    Great rant! Like all great rants, though, it's your fault for writing it and my fault for enjoying it.

  •  ~ blink blink ~ (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    Will you buy me something?


  •  My husband and I are okay too. (14+ / 0-)

    But as I said yesterday, I've got a few people in my family who, through no fault of their own, are in terrible trouble right now.  They did nothing wrong except fail to predict that the bottom would fall out of the housing market.  

    the third eye does not weep. it knows. Political compass: -9.75 / -8.72

    by mijita on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:50:50 AM PDT

  •  I just knew it.,,, (7+ / 0-)

    it was all my fault.

    CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

    by irate on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:51:59 AM PDT

  •  My perspective (33+ / 0-)

    To me ( a person with zero economic credentials), it looks kind of like the way you treat a family with an addict.

    To keep bailing out the addict, covering for him, paying his bills when he spends the house payment on gambling or drugs, calling in sick to cover for the binges, etc, etc, etc, is nothing more than enabling....things will never get better, only worse.

    Now, if the family really wants to help, they stop cold more bailing out, covering, paying bills, etc. The family knows this will be painful for EVERYONE involved. But, becasue they love the addict, they do it anyway.

    Now, the argument is that there won't be credit for cars or new home loans, Maybe we don't need to consume so much...if we don't drive as much it helps with gas prices, global warming, etc...maybe we have to be creative about carpooling, knowing that these things will not be COMFORTABLE...and maybe people will start saving more...a good thing right?

    Companies and banks will fail....maybe that is OK too...maybe they are mismanaged or don't provide quality products...there will be more unemployment...that's a really hard thing. But, if what we really need is a major correction in the way we do business, maybe the feds can use some of that 700 billion to pay for infrastructure rebuilding and create some jobs that way. Isn't that a better use of the money? I think so...

  •  Personally I agree with this commentator. (4+ / 0-)

    42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot. A Wrightism

    by publicv on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:52:37 AM PDT

  •  No doubt. I may have had money in the market (31+ / 0-)

    yesterday (through 401ks, etc) but I most certainly did not sell any of it. That was done by those oh-so-above-reproach movers and shakers on wall street.

    For the record, I am not a low-info voter and thanks to this site and others on the marvelous Internets, I have been reasonably-well informed about this whole fiasco for the year or so. And I called my reps to tell them not to vote for that stick up note.

  •  Thank You!! (12+ / 0-)

    I was pleased to see a lot of congress critters scared by the voters!
    That is a very good start to anything, in my view.

  •  Nothing like a Granny diary (12+ / 0-)

    I feel a little bit taller now.  

    "Democracy works when people claim it as their own." -Bill Moyers

    by mamalovesobama on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:53:39 AM PDT

  •  Part of what Wall Street did (31+ / 0-)

    From another heroine of mine, Digby's blog:

    "We used excessive leverage, failed to maintain adequate capital, engaged in reckless speculation, created new complex derivatives. We focused on short-term profits at the expense of sustainability. We not only undermined our own firms, we destabilized the financial sector and roiled the global economy, to boot. And we got huge bonuses."

  •  It's never my fault..Blame the hubby ;) n/t (11+ / 0-)

    Political will is a renewable resource --Al Gore, 2005

    by icelady on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:55:38 AM PDT

  •  What pisses me off (36+ / 0-)

    is that right-wingers are not only denying their responsibility, they're trying to pin the blame on minorities, red-lining, ACORN, etc.

    I got one of those ridiculous e-mails from my father-in-law the other day.  Most of the time, I just delete them.  But this one pissed me off.  I responded:

    "You don't really believe this crap, do you?

    Because if you do, I'd be happy to explain the difference between mortgage-backed and credit-backed securities to you, as well as credit default swaps, which is what this disaster is really about.

    This crisis was caused by a human flaw that is even older than racism: greed."

    For whatever reason, I didn't get a reply.  

  •  I think all the congresscritters were surprised (12+ / 0-)

    to be reminded that they have actual constituents.  Constituents who have an opinion and are just plain fed up.  Now that they have remembered us, maybe they can start pandering to US instead of the usual suspects.

  •  If my credit cards stop working (26+ / 0-)

    I guess I'll just have to save up the money when I want to buy something like my grandparents did.

    When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.

    by rmonroe on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:59:04 AM PDT

  •  I barely touch credit - (24+ / 0-)

    I keep enough so I can access some if I need to, but we're cash and carry.  My car is paid for, my home is almost paid for.  We will weather it okay, as long as I don't lose my job.

    This isn't ALL our fault, but GrannyDoc, we must re-evaluate our priorities.  Is shopping at the mall or having a 3000 sq ft home that we can't afford a good idea?  We have invested much of what we think of ourselves in terms of material goods, while watching our rate of happiness diminish and our rate of obesity and depression go up and up.

    We need to stop.  We are living beyond our means and need to learn to live within them.  Were we screwed?  Most definitely, but we provided the KY if you catch my drift.  The greed of Wall Street isn't the only greed at play here.

    Education, healthcare, good jobs with living wages, retirement, maternity leave/sick pay - THESE benefit ALL of society, not just a lucky few.  These are what we should be investing in, along with infrastructure and port security.

    We need to take a deep breath and make a mental shift.  We are danged close to the iceberg, may have struck it, but there is still time and to get everyone off the ship and into lifeboats - but it won't be easy.

    Vote like your life depended on it.

    by xysea on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:00:40 AM PDT

  •  Cant borrow for the payroll (33+ / 0-)

    That line makes me hit the roof.  Companies are really borrowing to make payroll?  They earn so little money that they can't afford their labor cost?  That's the scandal right there and that these talking heads get up and use this as a pretense is shocking.  I thought you borrowed money to expand and make more money.  If you are borrowing money just to stay in business for the love of god leave business.

    I am not tame, and this is no time for the timid. Your very liberty is at stake.

    by Adept2u on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:01:41 AM PDT

  •  And to borrow a line from the formerly great (22+ / 0-)

    Dennis Miller, not to get off on a rant here but I don't think we should "rescue" our financial markets in order for business to continue as usual. Business as usual as it has been for the last decade was inherently unsustainable and depended upon Americans spending themselves into debt.

    The markets and financial system MUST change. Cash should not longer be a dirty word or a source for derisive commercials. People should not be hit up for a credit account each and every time they check out at Target. There should not be tables set up with cutsie giveaways on college sidewalks enticing students to start debt accounts. Microwaves, televisions, dishwashers, and lawnmowers should not be sold by "monthly payment".  And mortgage loans should never have been written without accurate appraisals of the property and realistic qualification of potential buyers.

    The only reason the massive bloated debt industry exists is because someone makes a dollar off of each completed application, each transaction at the grocery store checkout, each balance transfer, each late payment, each loan origination, and each mortgage "service". The financial services and debt industry has been feeding on the American public like a giant tick. Now it has burst. I refuse to pay for another tick to be placed on our veins. They must go, period.

  •  It's our fault that we believed... (9+ / 0-)

    ... the blandishments of "authority," much like it's anyone who did not oppose the war's fault that we're in Iraq. The real blame falls on the administration, who consciously took us to a war of choice. But the supporters bear responsibility for believing that the promoters knew what they were doing.

    In the context of the financial meltdown, there's no question that we have been trained, for the last thirty years, in consumerism: to give in to our desire for gratification, for ownership of more (I'm thinking of Tom Tomorrow's masterful 60's-housewife crying "More things, please!"), for instantaneity, for something-for-nothing, for E-Z credit, for two years interest-free, for following leaders instead of asking questions.

    The last seven years have been the worst, but the  passive consumerist training has been going on, with increasing effectiveness, since the invention of the credit card.

    Is that our fault? Well, to some extent -- perhaps the same extent that it's the charming serial adulterer's wife's "fault" that she doesn't leave, because she loves him so.

    All the news that scares us silly:

    by mwmwm on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:05:00 AM PDT

  •  I'm tired of bailing out (12+ / 0-)

    the irresponsible assholes on Wall Street, in Detroit, and the oil people.  Ya know, it's not like there wasn't any warning signs along the way for any of those groups.  They ignored all the warning signs and went full speed ahead.  All of them are junkies looking for their next monetary fix.  I say tell 'em all to go fuck themselves and let them reap what they have sown.  Bastards.  I'm sick and tired of bailing out these fat cats whenever they get in trouble.  ENOUGH!!!!

    If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

    by Mz Kleen on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:07:00 AM PDT

  •  Let us liquidate our 401Ks without penalty! (19+ / 0-)

    I wrote a diary to that effect some days ago. Here's the link - it's long past recommend timeframe, so I'm not pimping.

    Here's a Main Street solution: Why not change the rules for 401K retirement accounts to allow individuals to liquidate all or part of their retirement holdings without penalty, as long as the money is transferred to their mortgage holder to pay down principal on their home. The money should also be available to help individuals refinance out of dangerous variable interest rate HELoC (Home Equity Lines of Credit) and ARM loans.

    In each case, if the homeowner has enough funds saved in his or her 401K to offset their negative equity stake and/or get out from under a risky loan, the homeowner wins and the mortgage banks win. Society wins. Also, no public funds would have been used. And US citizens wouldn't be held responsible for paying off a bunch of Wall Street parasites who lost everything due to their irresponsible profligacy. Thus, a moral hazard for the rich would not - this time, at least - have been promoted as U.S. fiscal policy. Just an idea.

    "This is the twenty-first century. Nations don't just go invading other countries." --John McCain, said without a hint of irony.

    by maynard on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:07:37 AM PDT

  •  Wall Street - Main Street - Las Vegas Strip.... (7+ / 0-)

    We need somehow to get high stakes gamblers out of our financial markets.  If these fools were dropping tons in Vegas, they'd be stimulating the local economy, not trashing ours.

    Legitimate hedging has its place (I'm another non-economist) but we can't allow (or in some cases even encourage) "investors" to over-leverage themselves.  We've seen it in mergers in acquisitions and now in CDS's.  Enough is enough.

    "I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused." - Elvis Costello

    by Oldengrey on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:11:12 AM PDT

  •  USA doesn't manufacture anything to sell, (25+ / 0-)

    so sells weird financial 'products' that sound good but that nobody really understands.

    Media Reform Action Link

    by LNK on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:13:57 AM PDT

  •  I agree with you but sometimes sh*t happens (28+ / 0-)

    even to people who plan out their lives to have no debt.  For example - me!  House paid for, kids all educated and on their own, plans to retire and then boom! Cancer. Even with good health insurance, my share of the cost put me under $14,000. Then 6-8 months of recovery put me behind another $8,000. Yup, I made the mistake of putting some of it on my credit cards and watched as the interest soared, and I was barely making any headway.  My total debt load is WAY less than most Americans but it still is painful that just 4 short years ago, everything was just fine. So, here I am 64 with a teaching pension, social security and a wonderful part-time job - but savings bone-dry and debt.  I'm so glad I didn't do the home equity thing because the house isn't worth as much as it used to be although the taxes on it remain based on that higher value.  I still would rather blame the Republican economic policies rather than the common citizen - for stupidity.

    "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK

    by moose67 on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:16:36 AM PDT

  •  While we mostly agree on "blame" (8+ / 0-)

    that still begs the question of WTF do we do now.  While I don't trust most of the folks telling us about the crisis, I do believe that there really are problems which could seriously affect us going forward.  While you could argue that no consumer credit might be good for us in the long term, in the short term car dealers will be out of business, home repairs will be deferred, small business payrolls might not be met.  All of those failures potentially feed an economic landslide.

    Whether it's just "psychological" or whatever, I think the Congress needs to do SOMETHING and I think that one of the pre-eminent members of the US Senate, the junior Senator from Illinois, needs to step up and tell us what to do.  I commented in another thread that this is a high-risk thing to do and would probably not be politically savvy.  However, I think we do need a "new politics" and I can't think of a better time to showcase what that looks like.  

    Let's see Barack step up and provide the specifics that should be in a new "rescue" proposal.  I'd prefer something bottom up, but he's got better advisers than I do.  We control both houses - let's lead.  Let's not pretend that any proposal that we put forward is the end-all.  We should respectfully seek input and try to accommodate the view of the Repubs.  However if they won't get off their high horses and compromise, let's do what needs to be done and run on being a party of action.

    We don't want to race into something, but at this point we're pushing two weeks on the "crisis."  This isn't a snap decision like the 3 page Paulson plan.  

    Just a thought - and probably flawed.

    "I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused." - Elvis Costello

    by Oldengrey on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:23:31 AM PDT

  •  But they told us to go shopping. (24+ / 0-)

    We were doing our patrotic duty.  

    They told us to go shopping over and over again.

    Then they did everything in their power to keep our wages down.

    Our health care benefits and pensions were taken away.

    Still we were encouraged to shop.  

    Does anyone remember GWB ever appearing on the television telling us to save our money?

    Droogie... I know you're in here somewhere.

    by blueocean on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:29:47 AM PDT

  •  I've been assured it's only a mental recession... (15+ / 0-)

    ...and affects only whiners.  So saith the expert!    

    So, I'm off to buy AIG stock!

    "Does anybody know what the difference between a bulldog and a hockey mom is? The bulldog gets vetted!" - Bob Barr

    by Front Toward Enemy on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:30:59 AM PDT

  •  Oh jeez. (9+ / 0-)

    You've read all the comments? Don't pay any attention to any of mine. I'm completely full of shit.

    "I have vision, and the rest of the world wears bifocals." -Paul Newman as Butch Cassidy

    by NMDad on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:33:09 AM PDT

  •  I feel SOOOO much better now. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xysea, magicsister, NoisyWithdrawal

    So its not our fault? FANTASTIC! I'm sure that means the economy with forgo any nasty turn for me personally. What a relief!

    And, whatever the outcome, exercising our democratic right to tell our Representatives to vote the package down, does not make this our fault, either.

    Really? Having the ignorant dictate idiotic policy due to a blatant effort to politicize/threaten their jobs over the issue ABSOLVES us of all blame? NICE!

    Must be nice sitting there with all your cash, houses and liquid assets telling the tired and poor how not to blame we are. I want to be you when I grow up.

  •  Think about the chidddrennn!!!!! (14+ / 0-)

    Sammy Joe wants a Hummer for her 16th birthday!!! And damn it, she deserves it.

    Bubba wants to go kill Alaskan wolves from a helicopter!!! And damn it, he deserves it.

    Little Lucy is hitting puberty and she wants breast implants!!! And damn it, she deserves it.

    Congress needs to pass a bill, any bill, so the credit markets keep flowing! And then another to re-inflate the housing market! And then we elect McCain and Palin to protect trickle down economics.

    Yeah, that sounds great!

    Before you kill me, all these comments are based on real people here in the The South.

  •  It IS your fault (8+ / 0-)

    You didn't give them all your money!

    Same as privatizing Social Security — look at all that money all those people have, that should be mine!  How dare they keep it from me?

    Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

    by Simplify on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:37:35 AM PDT

  •  Bill Moyers interviews Andrew Bacevich (9+ / 0-)

    About his book "The Limits of Power".

    Here is the linky.

    Bottom line is you reap what you sow, even if you aren't the one that did the sowing, unfortunately.

    ...or another way of looking at it... if you don't take care of a problem then the problem takes care of you (but not in a nice way).

  •  Meantime, how are your gold futures doing? n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DC Scott, magicsister

    Their real God is money-- Jesus just drives the armored car. © 2006 All Rights Reserved

    by oblomov on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:43:49 AM PDT

  •  "You just don't understand and should step back (17+ / 0-)

    and let the experts make these decisions."  

    Whenever I get a whiff of this, I know we're about to get taken.  If it hadn't been so audatious... so close to a trillion dollars, they probably would have gotten away with it.

    They have not done these awful things because they are bad conservatives; they have done them because they are good conservatives. -- Thomas Frank

    by sagra on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:45:50 AM PDT

  •  It's all nomenclature (11+ / 0-)

    I thought they were blaming "people of color" for everything?  I must have missed the change when they widened their scope of blame.  And for those of you who are too young, "people of color" was always considered a respectful term and often used by the African American community when they referred to themselves as colored.  

    I have always thought that Bush was a moron and that his economic policies were going to lead to a mess that would rival the Great Depression.  Partly that was based on the idiotic statements they would make at every turn, their denial of reality and the massive deregulation they enacted.  Those regulations were put in place by FDR to contain the abuses that lead to the Great Depression.  Republicans have been ranting against the New Deal for 70 years.  They wanted to overturn every last bit of New Deal legislation they could.  And they did.  Big surprise at the outcome.  

    On a tactical front, they made a huge mistake letting this get labeled "A Wall Street Bail Out."  Unfortunately, that seems to be what they want to do.  In fact, it's a crisis in the financial sector caused by fraud, greed, rampant speculation (ie. gambling) and a total lack of regulation. The operations of the financial sector need to be saved in order for the economy to function.  The banks don't need to be saved.

    At this point, it's clear the Democrats are going to win the election.  I think they should force through a bill that nationalizes all of these institutions.  Just take them over.  Screw the managers and owners that brought us this.  Re-organize the banks, fire the incompetent, jail the criminal, clean up the books and then sell the remainder back to the private sector.  It will save the government money and lessen the risk.  Think of it as a New "New Deal."

    Granny Doc -  I always love your stuff.  Have you given any thought to writing a post on "The Narcissistic Behavior of the Republican Party?"  It could be fertile ground.

  •  Yoh Wingnuts - think market forces caused this ? (15+ / 0-)

    (1) We have something called credit derivative swaps 'valued' at 62 times the underlying mortgages, which in turn are based upon unsustainable property values - even a couple with two solid incomes can't sustain these bs values.

    (2) Phil and Wendy Gramm - while Phil's culpability has been duly noticed, and the new "McCain's Friends" ad from Move On nails him- his wife Wendy is also a know noting economist who at the CFTC was an ardent deregulator, and helped things along- and that is not psychosomatic whining. From my lobbying days, Gramm was known for using literal truths to mislead you- a lying sack of s**T.

    (3) FEES FEES FEES - like any capitalist left unchecked, money will be chased like rapid dogs - from investment bankers to mortgage brokers, it was all about FEES - AND SPARE ME THE WINGNUT- CARTER-CLINTON-COMMUNITY REINVESTMENT ACT- FANNIE MAE BLATHERINGS -

    I thought the sainted Ronnie Rayguns undid the Carter presidency - and what did Franlin Raines have to do with the problems in the European Market ? Can you see Europe from Alaska? Cyber Byte me, morons.


    I have an advanced degree in economics, but throw out the graphs,regression analysis et al, and I'll repeat dinner table economics- these houses are not worth the bs values, and anybody with an ounce of common sense can see that ; AND THESE VALUES WILL NOT COME BACK UNLESS AND UNTIL WAGES RISE COMMENSARATELY -

    Get up out of your chairs, and proudly proclaim, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it any more...Howard Beale in Network, 1976

    by ExElephant on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:46:14 AM PDT

  •  It's my fault. (8+ / 0-)

    I thought I lived in the U.S.A., not the Republican Party Socialist Banana Republic.

    JOHN McCAIN = George W. Bush's 3rd term.

    by chumley on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:46:32 AM PDT

  •  hmmmm.... (5+ / 0-)

    I agree with you on one level. On another, not so much.

    It is EVERYONE's fault.

    We are a people who allowed a smallish, vocal minority  to successfully spearhead an agenda which lacks common sense and reasonable restraint.

    We are a people who turned apathy into an art form.

    We are a people who have lived beyond our means since at least 1990. Yes, wall street was the enabler but people showed little restraint too.

    There is enough blame to go around.

  •  Fault. (4+ / 0-)

    I hope we can agree that the fault goes all around. Not equally, and not only one side. Greedy Wall Street, ignorant and victimized consumers, just damn bad luck. The fault can be shared. Surely we can agree on that.

    And now what?

    ...there's a rose in the fisted glove and the eagle flies with the dove - Stephen Stills

    by NuttyProf on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:51:33 AM PDT

  •  I have been following this pretty closly also (10+ / 0-)

    and if you notice there is a major split even among market analysts as to if this is the right bill and if it will work. Also yeaterdays selloff was on VERY LOW VOLUME, which means big money wasn't moving out of the market it was panic from the little guys. I have been watching the bid to ask ratios today and it looks like there is more big money moving in. Panic is not a good state for decision making, not for individual, not for congress. Let's hope they come up with a better bill.

    There is also the whole BS about blaming the home buyers. ANyone who has gotten a mortgage over 10 years ago knows it was an excruiating process. Proving income, proving debt to income rations, mortgages written to at most 2x's annual income. Then the loan writers started giving loans to anyone with no documentation. Only an idiot would believe that these banks didn't know what was going to happen. After god knows how many years of a business model they threw it out the window and thought everything would be OK. If they ever thought that they woudl have to eat the losses they would have never done it. As we see it doesn't look like they will.

    To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men~~ Abraham Lincoln

    by Tanya on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:51:34 AM PDT

  •  there's more than enough fault to go around (5+ / 0-)

    I hesitate to say that it is not "our" fault, because for years our whole economy became one unthinking episode of Flip That House.  "We" may not have set up the conditions for the mess, but many of "us" certainly participated.

    All the same, I have yet to see any of our financial Masters of the Universe apologize or admit fault in any way.  It's all "who could have foreseen this!" and similar exclamations of pretend surprise.

  •  Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.... (8+ / 0-)

    Lashing myself with wet Top Ramen noodles (which I'll eat later - no more fancy-schmancy pasta on my budget.)

  •  We need a new damn plan (7+ / 0-)

    The last one was a scam.  It didn't work and now the leaders in Congress are working hard to tweak it and push it through.  They are putting every pressure they can think of on House members.

    Apparently, the Senate already has the votes.  It's been reported on Bloomberg that they plan to have the Senate vote first, perhaps even tomorrow, and then try to push it through the House again.

    This article from Bloomberg gives a lot of information about what they are planning:
    Senate May Try to Revive Bank-Rescue Bill by Tomorrow.

    Granny, what do you think of the conference call (links here, here, here)Sunday night with the "Treasury boys" and the Wall St. analysts during which they talk about how Paulson says they can take the whole $700 billion at once if they like, that executive compensation restrictions are easy to get around because they don't apply to current contracts, and that while Paulson is talking about immediate crisis, Paulson doesn't plan to "inject" the taxpayer billions into the market for several weeks anyway.


    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson

    by joanneleon on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:57:30 AM PDT

  •  CNBC, Fox Business (11+ / 0-)

    and to a (barely) lesser extent MSNBC, CNN, Fox News, and the legacy networks, pretty much now exist to push a culture where the robber barons work their magic while the unwashed masses are distracted by bread and circuses.

    Fox Business was attacking Pelosi before the first Republican from the House made a single public statement. The tight coordination is ludicrously visible on Fox Business Channel, but it's really not much different than the delay in broadcasting Sarah Palin's shocking lack of knowledge about the Supreme Court.

    Blaming the stupid public (and the colored homeowners) is pretty much the only avenue these outlets have at their disposal, now that we're about to reach the point where either people's money has less value or they themselves have less money than they thought they did. Eventually there will be naming of names and testimony indicting particular practices and people. The job of the House GOP members, and their compliant stooges bought and paid for in the major media outlets, is to push that fact finding process off for 36-72 months or longer.

    Obama's job is to get to that point in 18 months or earlier. In the meantime, there'll be plenty of pain to go around, it sounds like. I can't believe we've got to the point where we taxpayers have to prop up a Ponzi scheme just so the normal borrowing and lending that capitalism subsists on can continue to flow. What an outrage. The persiflage coming down our normal avenues of information is just par for the course, a fitting coda to a period of amoral activity and anti-American philosophy.

    Thanks for the diary.

  •  I have a small business (14+ / 0-)

    and I have never borrowed money to stay afloat.  If I were to come up short on payroll for as much as 3 months, I would close it and go to work for someone else.  However, I do have a credit card, and I do use it all the time to make donations to various and sundry Dems, so I take full responsibility for what is happening on Wall Street.

    Cowards die many times before their deaths... Shakespeare, Julius Ceasar, II, 2

    by on the cusp on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:00:40 AM PDT

  •  Wow, why do you even bother to care? n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
  •  "Step back and let the experts take over" (10+ / 0-)

    The experts? The same ones that got us into this mess, or different experts?

  •  Dow up +291.19 right now (5+ / 0-)

    Nearly half of yesterday's "end of the world" has been restored.

    Sarah Palin is an expert on the financial crisis, because she has a checking account.

    by Orbital Mind Control Lasers on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:03:19 AM PDT

  •  Granny.... (7+ / 0-)

    I have had this same thought for months...all of the hand wringing...all of the "reassurances" from the financial media... "Don't panic!"..."Keep your money where it is!" all of it... has been designed to keep this failed system afloat...

    Yes, I know that some people are going to be hurt if the markets collapse......but perhaps it is better to be hurt now than a few months down the road when this bail out fails to bail out anyone......and that nearly trillion dollars goes up in smoke...

    I have been feeling like they are holding a gun to our's blackmail...robbery...

    Have you seen the market today?   DOW +266.50

    Hell, they told us it was the end of the world! What happened, eh?

  •  it is our fault (8+ / 0-)

    we let republicans win and implement deregulation for twenty years.

    we knew this was coming but failed to educate or convince the populace otherwise.

    in the end we (the other half of the American people ie: the republican party and Reagan democrats) did it to the rest of us.

    The privileged man, whether he be privileged politically or economically, is a man depraved in intellect and heart. -- Mikhail Bakunin

    by angry liberaltarian on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:04:49 AM PDT

  •  I assume, then, GrannyDoc, that you (4+ / 0-)

    read my comments, on someone's diary, yesterday,
    (Your Verdict On Bailout Should Not Come from DKos)
    regarding pervasive IT Technical infrastructure issues .... now, let me be clear, since you asked about "personal interests" ... well, my interest is in preventing a catastrophic meltdown of our way of life ....

    And, is this a real possibility?

    Well, I think so, but no, I do not know.

    I have stated, several times, that I am NO expert on economics, but that, as a laymen, (but one who has worked in IT for Fortune 100 companies, for 25+ years, on Wall Street, for financial services corporations, as well as, across many industry segments, (like energy utility, trucking, publishing, etc. ) ... ) ... I do think it is necessary, and the operative word there, is THINK .... no, I most certainly absolutely positively DO NOT KNOW ...

    Yeah, I could be being taken for a ride, along with the rest of the public who are in favor of this "bailout" ... or whatever name one wants to give it.

    My father grew up during the depression ... he is 81 now, and I am 44, and so I was raised with a rather strong depression era mentality ... My father doesnt throw out things, like jars, or old clothes, etc .... I am sure you know the kind .... and so my sense of the fear of a breakdown, like we saw during the depression, has always been within my own psyche, even though I did not personally endure it .... so, yeah, I may have a skewed perspective, one that is based in a fear of this happening again, during a time when our population is far more massive ...

    Now, having admitted to my lack of economic expertise, there is the fact that as an IT guy, who has done work for major financial institutions, whose expertise is Enterprise Information Systems (EIS), I am rather acutely aware of the delicate balance and inter-dependencies that are critical to a smoothly running organization, and I am also aware that our house of cards could come crashing down ... and unlike you, I have little buffer ... and the failing economy has hurt me personally, in the numerous IT projects that have not been funded ... or have been outsourced overseas ...

    So, having said all that, am I making a case in favor of the bailout? ... NO!

    Yes, I am (PERSONALLY) in favor of the bailout, for the aforementioned reasons, namely, I believe the "house of cards" must continue to run, for our society to continue to run ... but I do not believe I am any where near qualified to argue a case in favor of the bailout (or any bailout), or to even defend it in any credible or meaningful or substantive way ... but from my limited perspective, yes, I am in favor of some sort of a bailout ... to infuse our financial industry with capital .... MAINLY, because, the rash failures of major financial institutions scares the living shit out of me !!! ... I am sorry, but bank failures is my "hot button" and "triggers" all sorts of childhood fears ... but who knows if those failures were real, I mean, I havent personally checked their books??? ... so, yeah, I could be completely fooled by the media, and I have no personal way to validate this ... save for, a series of google searches, and to read, what you all are already reading, and then, make a (BLIND) guess!

    (((because, who knows if what one is even reading on the net is accurate, and not part of some contrived misinformation campaign ... I mean, for 700 billion dollars, there is well ample funds to justify the work involved in contriving such a farce .... so, yeah, who the fuck knows!)))

    But, be that as it may ...

    Thank you, for your words, at the very least, I know that your "special interest" is to see the truth and see what is truly the best, for us all.

    ~we study the old to understand the new~from one thing know ten thousand~to see things truly one must see what is in the light and what lies hidden in shadow~

    by ArthurPoet on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:04:51 AM PDT

  •  I could have written this diary. (9+ / 0-)

    I also have two houses, no debt, pay off the one credit card every month.  I also have been reading every comment on every financial diary here over the last week, getting more and more confused and angry.

    We have three camps here, an amazing development. Just about one-third favored the bailout, one-third was opposed, and the others are more honest about being baffled and scared.

    Congress reflected the same fear and confusion.  The entire leadership favored the bailout: president, Fed, Treasury, 90% of the Senate, the entire congressional leadership on both sides.  But the left Democrats and the right Republicans headed for the hills.  I can't remember that ever happening before.

    I've been in the reluctant supporter camp.  I've read enough to believe there is a genuine crisis that could bring my business to a standstill.

    But I also agree completely with this diary that it's the bamboozlers on Wall Street that caused this mess, not the people, and the bastards ought to PAY.

    Read Deuteronomy 28.

    by Timaeus on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:07:37 AM PDT

  •  Actually it IS the fault of Americans (19+ / 0-)

    Americans have been electing free market fanatics for years.  For three decades, promises to cut corporate taxes and deregulate any and all markets have won a clear majority of elections for candidates of both parties.  Americans have exercised their voting rights to demand that government let the invisible hand of the free market work its virtues.  Now they want to blame a few greedy Wall Street CEOs?  Whatever.  

    Listen up, America:  voting has consequences.  Pull your heads out of your collective arse and think beyond your selfish short-term interests for a change.

    "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

    by Subterranean on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:07:46 AM PDT

  •  Did CNN objectively cover bailout mess? (5+ / 0-)

    From Politico:

    Not according to David Zurawik, television critic for the Baltimore Sun. Today, he calls out CNN correspondent Ali Velshi for opinionated coverage of the bailout fiasco.

    But the superficialty of the early coverage was in no way as egregious as the highly opinionated commentary offered by senior business correspondent Ali Velshi in place of reporting the story as it unfolded. He was worse even than the ever-opinionated Lou Dobbs, who can at least argue on behalf of his blather that he is hosting a show not serving as the lead correspondent on a huge story with cosmic consequences.

    Velshi was relentless in his unbridled advocacy for passage of a bailout bill. He warned those viewers who would reject the legislation because it didn't provide enough punishment for Wall Street CEOs by saying: "If we really want to kick should know you are kicking yourself. That kick comes around and hits you in the eye...We have to lubricate the credit market."

    Zurawik praised Fox's Neil Cavuto, while adding that CNN's Velshi and [Rick] Sanchez "certainly were not offering the kind of down-the-middle, fact-based, verified journalism CNN president Jon Klein claims his channel provides -- not by a long shot."


    "Be convinced that to be happy means to be free and that to be free means to be brave." - Thucydides

    by JasperJohns on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:12:28 AM PDT

  •  Try walking into a Vegas casino and say... (8+ / 0-)

    I've been betting a little too heavily on the horses so now I need a bailout...

    ...and see what happens.

    First, much hilarity will ensue, then fingers will get broken.

    I so wish Big Pussy and, say, Paulie from The Sopranos could spend a day on Wall Street to share my vision.


    by Lupin on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:12:56 AM PDT

  •  I guess it is my fault for getting (6+ / 0-)

    born and just being a total drain on society and my parents who had to feed and clothe me.  I'm a drain at work and just an all around pain in the neck dirty commie pinko.

    from my email this hour:

    The establishment is now crying wolf to scare us and force on society sweeping transfers of wealth to the rich, who are destroying themselves. If these enormous transfers of wealth are finally accomplished, those who promoted irresponsible spending and borrowing and performed irresponsibly themselves will benefit. They will save the day by using up taxpayer money, and will do their best to continue enriching themselves. Though there is considerable uncertainty on whether the financial bailout proposed by Wall Street, Paulson and Bernanke will be successful in avoiding a severe economic downturn (economists are strongly divided on its possible effectiveness), what is clear is that the only purpose of the plan is to reinstate "business as usual," i.e., the economic environment of the last years in which the real income of most people has been stagnant of declining, working hours have increased under pressure of being fired or not competitive enough with your coworkers, social inequality has strongly expanded, and the American ruling class has been exceedingly happy in embarking into wars and destroying the real economy, and the environment in which we live.
    José A. Tapia
    University of Michigan

    Just say "No" to Blackmail and the Shock Doctrine

    by fernan47 on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:13:25 AM PDT

  •  I've been listening to this rhetoric my whole lif (6+ / 0-)

    it seems, I grew up in a Republican area.  When Katrina hit a neighbor said that the blacks stayed behind on purpose because they wanted to loot.  

    And with my family it's more subtle.  They are always moralizing about personal responsibility etc...etc...

    I'm really tired of it.  My dad enjoys medicare and and social security, and they forget that.

    I'm really tired because I'm the caregiver for my parents right now and I've not had time to be totally informed on what's happening, but those are just my random thoughts

  •  Double Amen. (8+ / 0-)

    For a bunch of political activists, some around here seem to have a very short memory.

    Ginned-up WMD crisis (+ a few 9/11's) -> Iraq invasion ("SUCCESSFUL" USE OF CRISIS) and billions of dollars float to defense contractors and who knows whom

    Ginned-up Social Security crisis -> Failed Privatization (UNSUCCESSFUL USE OF CRISIS -- but we preserved our retirement system)


    Ginned-up liquidity crisis -> Will it be Henry Paulson's friends make off with buckets of our taxpayer dollars ("SUCCESSFUL" USE OF CRISIS) OR Americans force Congress to help out Main Street (CRISIS JUJITSUED TO HELP OUR PEOPLE)

    Which will it be?


    by maxschell on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:14:30 AM PDT

  •  Well, I know how to fund the bailout (8+ / 0-)

    Take the Forbes 400 list.

    The poorest person on it is worth $1.3 billion dollars.  

    So, if they each give an average of $2 billion ... bingo!

    Now, the guy at the bottom of the 400 can't give more than he has.... but the people at the top can give more.  Way more.

    Gates is worth $57 Billion
    Buffett is worth $50 billion

    They could each give $10 billion.

    Ellison    is at $27 Billion
    Jim Walton      $23 Bill
    Rob Walton      $23 Bill
    Alice Walton     $23 Bill
    Christy Walton   $23 Bill
    Mike Bloomberg   $20 bill

    They can each give $7.5 billion

    and so on.

    None of them will suffer.

    As to who should get the money and what to do with it ... I'm not touching that one.

  •  I plead guilty as charged. (6+ / 0-)

    It is my fault. How dare I complain about the multi BILLION dollar bonuses that were based on frauds that the top execs paid themselves? How dare I complain about the financial instrument insurers, who abused the rules (no, there were NO RULES) to sell "insurance" supporting those financial instruments, yet refusing to provide the slightest bit of underwriting, or creation of reserves for possible claims? How Dare I Oppose her mighty highness, Nancy Pelousy Pelosi, who had a quarter of a million invested in AIG, and was the loudest cheerleader in its bailout?

    How dare I demand accountability in Freddie and Fannie, whose original purpose and intent were ripped apart, and allowed the top execs to rake in unheard of profits (and bonuses) while screwing the ultimate consumer - the little guy?

    Lastly, how dare I complain about using taxpayer money to pay for what amounts to a financial mulligan, protecting those asses who created this mess in the first place?

    I have to admit that I am laughing, almost hysterical, to watch McCain say
    a) the economic foundations are strong
    b) the economic foundations are not strong
    c) the AIG bailout sucks
    d) the AIG bailout is great
    f) fuck you all, do it my way or else.
    g) OK, do it your way, whatever that is.
    i) what do you mean it didn't pass?
    j) It was Obama's fault.
    k) Sarah Palin is the perfect VP.

    What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

    by agnostic on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:16:19 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for setting a fine example Granny Doc (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sockpuppet, Granny Doc, magicsister

    Refreshingly candid.

    Those on this site who are wealthy should be similarly candid, in order for your comments to be appropriately framed and valued.

    try habitat restoration - good for you, good for all

    by jps on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:16:22 AM PDT

  •  Thanks, Granny Doc (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Snarcalita, Granny Doc, magicsister

    I needed this.  So many comments posted yesterday made me feel so guilty for writing my Congress persons and telling them to vote NO yesterday, and to please slow down and consider other approaches to solving this economic problem.  And guilty for feeling relieved when the "Plan" failed to pass.  (I never thought I would feel grateful to Republicans in Congress.  dammit.  Whatever their motives.)

    And thanks, Granny, for staying on top of all this for those of us who either don't have the time or the mental stamina to examine it all as closely as you're doing.  I much appreciate it.

    "A bad government is elected by good people who do not vote in elections." -- Unknown, pg 342, "The Shell Game" by Steve Alten

    by sockpuppet on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:16:26 AM PDT

  •  It Took Me About of My 25 Adult Years (8+ / 0-)

    To finally get into a financial state where I could choose to never use a credit card for essentials, and to never carry a credit balance other than a mortgage. And even now one unanticipated job layoff would put a quick end to that accomplishment. I truly feel for people living on credit, how used you feel when they jack your rates, knowing they can see your monthly habits and purchase patterns, upping your limit from time to time, and making sure they gotcha for the long haul. It's damned hard to quit.

    The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by easong on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:16:41 AM PDT

  •  Read this and think. It's the history, stupid. (5+ / 0-)

    as a student of history who was born in Europe at the beginning of the Great Depression I found this opinion piece particularly valuable in trying to keep events in perspective.

    It goes to the heart of what I see as America's addiction to Instant Fixes.

  •  There are a lot of people at fault. (6+ / 0-)

    I mean we know how bad Wall Street was with these ridiculous derivatives and CDOs and other crap.  We know there were stupid lenders who gave loans to people who had no business getting a loan.  How about the Americans who indeed DID live beyond their means based on high house prices (so sue me, I read the Economist 5 years ago predicting that the housing prices were way to high and it was masking the fundamental problems in our economy), with the chickens now coming home to roost.

    I suppose you could get into DEGREES of blame, but frankly, I am only interested in what SYSTEMS were to blame, and then to fix them.  What regulatory mechanisms would have prevented this?  Then go fix that.  And of course, anyone who broke the law should go to jail.

    "John McCain has proven that he's not a maverick, he's erratic." -- John Kerry on McCain's impulsive choice for VP, 8/31/08

    by beachmom on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:19:49 AM PDT

  •  Last week I was yelling "Shock Doctrine" (9+ / 0-)

    ...and I still think I was right.

    But the good news is that if you could condense the curative recommendations from Ms. Klein's book into a single message it would be:

    Don't Panic. Think Critically. Question Authority.

    That's what we've done and I dare say the general consensus among average Americans is "Fuck 'em. Let Wall Street fall and we'll pick up the pieces."

    Bush's Penultimate Gambit is failing. And all we had to do was keep the poop out of our pants.

    Obama/Biden 08
    They can multi-task!

    by dj angst on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:20:03 AM PDT

  •  I always love your diaries, Granny Doc (5+ / 0-)

    This one included.

    Somehow I had gotten the sense you weren't all that well off.  Ha!

    I live the same way you do, except for the well-off part. :D

    I work (at home) and make about 1/3 - 1/6 what I used to at a "real" job 6 years ago.  We live within our means, somehow.  I use my 1 credit card for convenience and pay it off every month; I don't buy anything if I don't have the cash in the bank.

    And we live pleasantly enough.  Just kind of small.

    I have a very tiny 401k from when I had that "real" job 6 years ago, and while I've been freaking out watching it go down and up and down at alarming rates these past couple of weeks, I haven't yet lost more than I had put in.  If I lose it, I lose it.  I was going to cash it in earlier this summer to build a studio addition, but didn't due to the supposed 30% loss I would have had to take.  I may have lost my last opportunity for that ever.  Sh*T.  We were going to refinance our house at a lower fixed rate for a $53,000 savings (some to be reinvested in the house), but hadn't gotten all the bids in yet for needed repairs, so we haven't done that yet, either.  Sigh.  What can we do?  

    Maybe our procrastination was a lucky break; I don't know.

    The only way I see that this whole financial debacle can be considered "our" fault is that we weren't able to keep the last 2 elections from being stolen, and we haven't been able to make our sorry representatives be responsible for oversight, good laws, etc.

    We must pay attention, and we must try to elect smarter representatives...

    One last point; remember when the drum was being beaten for the Iraq war in 2003?  Where were the people then?  We have spent about $600 billion (to a potential estimated $3 trillion!: link) on that, plus 4000+ lost American lives, 30,000+ wounded, untold numbers of dead and wounded Iraqis, and all the rest that that disaster has cost us.  Hundreds of thousands of us protested around the world, but where was the media coverage?  Why weren't there more people protesting?  Why couldn't we have stopped that debacle?  Why didn't our representatives listen to us then?

    Just a ironic passing thought...

    "No matter how cynical I get, it's just never enough to keep up." - Lily Tomlin

    by orangeuglad on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:20:56 AM PDT

  •  Most importantly, we need to keep the heat on and (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, magicsister, imchange

    tell our Congress critters members - Dodd, Schumer, Frank, Pelosi, Reid, OBAMA/BIDEN, the repugs - that this is not the bill we need, that we must have a better bill that can be implemented sometime in the next couple of weeks - yes, it can be done within that timeframe, and yes, they can come together to get a decent bill passed.

    We need a rescue plan, we want a rescue plan, we need a rescue, we want a rescue - we just don't want the rescue they're trying to force on us.  

    We need to seize the moment while we have our Congress critters' ears - every seat in the House of representatives is up for re-election.

    We need to let them know that their seats are on the line if they cave in and try to vote up this stinking bill.  Yes, I said it, the bill stinks.

    Why, yes, it is imperative that Congress passes a rescue plan, but that ain't it!  Sen. Sanders' proposed plan makes sense; why can't they incorporate portions of that?

    Tell them not to go back to the same old, same old.  


    "It is time for them to own their failure." Presidential Candidate Barack Obama, 08/28/2008

    by 99 Percent Pure on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:22:17 AM PDT

  •  Granny bashing... here goes: (5+ / 0-)

    capitol -> capital
    Bohnier -> Boehner

    There.  That'll fix your wagon.


  •  I am Wimpy (4+ / 0-)

    Wimpy, being the best popular example of a character who is in debt.  

  •  One problem with your analysis (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, magicsister, cheftdp

    There are no disinterested players in the public sphere.  There are no disinterested observers, and no disinterested commentators.  Everyone who opens their mouth on the financial markets has a horse in this race and if they lose, it's gonna' be your fault...

    Your entire approach is couched in an "us vs them" worldview.

    Logically, the extension of the assertion I quoted above would be to say that, neither you nor I are disinterested players either - certainly Kos is not. Yet you fail to make that final step.

    You fail to say "what can WE do?", demanding, instead, that "THEY do" and distrusting whatever "THEY" do regardless. And so determined are you to cling to this binary worldview, that anyone who supports what you view as beneficial to "them" automatically becomes "them", or at least their codependent.

    And you focus, ultimately - and in your ultimate paragraph - on fault for problem, rather than responsibility for solution.

    Contrast this with Obama's statement that, (paraphrasing) it may be their actions that caused this mess, but it is our jobs at stake and we must come together and all take responsibility for the solution.

    So, rather than exploiting an opportunity to step us back from the precipice of mob frenzy and (big-D) Democratic self-destruction, your diary is just a more polite and far more articulate restatement of kos's current front page post demonizing those of us who rationally come to a different conclusion, and resist the temptation of simplistic, binary decisions in a complex, interconnected world.

    One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

    by RandomActsOfReason on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:23:41 AM PDT

  •  The richest and most powerful, (10+ / 0-)

    who have been running this country, are entirely responsible for this crisis.  I do believe the "free market" system (i.e., markets rigged for the moneyed interests) has failed and that government intervention is needed.

    What the voters are saying, even as the corporate media tries to scare them into acquiescence, is not that a bailout is unnecessary.  What we are saying is, among other things, that WE WILL NOT PAY for this bailout.

    The bailout must be funded by the rich and powerful who are 100% responsible for the failure.  If that means 90% top income and capital gains tax rates for the next 200 years, that's OK with me.  But I WILL NOT PAY MORE THAN I ALREADY HAVE FOR WHAT THESE PLUTOCRAT THIEVES HAVE DONE TO THIS COUNTRY.

    "The cloud of mind is discharging its collected lightning, and the equilibrium between institutions and opinions is now restoring or is about to be restored."

    by nom de paix on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:24:05 AM PDT

  •  Greed and Dream (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, sephius1, magicsister

    Thats what did it.

    Greed of wall street and execs of companies that only think about the next quarter. Their congressional enablers (Rethugs and blue dogs).

    Dreams of people owning houses - that they can't afford. Greedy people who took advantage of this dream.

  •  My fault too (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrkvica, Granny Doc, sephius1

    I read Section 8 of the Paulson proposal and wrote a letter to the editor on the spot.  My congresscritter voted no.

  •  This probably won't be a well liked opinion (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sockpuppet, Granny Doc, maxxdogg

    But it is all our fault. This is our country and we have the government we have due to a (largely) democratic process. We elected these bozos into power and mostly looked the other way while they deregulated and "freed" everything. We could have voted for people who were more grounded and realistic.

    Okay, I realize me as well as most of you did not vote for these bozos, but collectively we are all citizens of this country so we share a common blame. We overleveraged our houses and credit cards. We borrowed beyond our means to pay. We took out risky mortgages. We chased the fast buck. Are we that different from those on Wall Street?

    The economist in me says we are crying over spilled milk. The facts are what they are. What are we going to do about them? That is the relevant issue.

    Many an insightful opinion and observation can be found on my blog Occam's Razor.

    by Guy Noir on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:31:04 AM PDT

  •  Thanks Granny for telling it like it is and I'm.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, sephius1

    happy for you that you are in such good shape.

  •  Thanks Grans. We need to step (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrkvica, Granny Doc, sephius1

    back and mull this over a while. Let's see how bad it is
    really is, and just HOW much money the credit market really needs to stave off disaster.
    Some tried and true sayings come to mind - "Haste makes waste", "Patience is a virtue", "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" (actually said pursuant to a credit crunch crisis).
    I'm sure "wait and see" will gender some pain to a few.
    (And like you, Granny, I'm not likely to be one of them.) But I think the greatest good for the greatest number, will most likely come from patience, not haste.

  •  I disagree... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sockpuppet, mrkvica, Granny Doc, maxxdogg

    We did play a role in this mess. The American public took out more credit cards, home equity loans, car loans, and lines of credit on this and that than could be supported over the long run. The consumer debt load in this country has exploded over the past 15 years.

    Now, it is the responsibility of the banks to offer loans only to individuals who can afford to pay them back with a reasonable portion of their income. But it is also our duty to make sure that we don't buy things we can't afford on credit we know we can't pay back.

  •  The economy is like "Weekend at Bernie's" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lobbygow, sockpuppet, Granny Doc

    except Paulson and Bernanke are the ones that are proping up the dead guy (the economy).

    I can't help but think  that we are still somewhere between the denial and the bargaining phase of this little Kubler-Ross drama.

  •  Please accept my apology (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sockpuppet, Clytemnestra, Granny Doc

    for being so stupid, Granny Doc.  

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to finish my bowl of gruel.

    "Only the most deluded of us could doubt the necessity of this war." John McCain at the RNC, August 31, 2004

    by Pangloss on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:41:07 AM PDT

  •  Thanks Granny (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sockpuppet, mrkvica, tobendaro, Granny Doc

    While I feel for those who are currently suffering from this current situation, I am left to ponder why the same effort has not been made for the other problems we face. Do many people really believe that a loss in value of their 401k is a bigger deal than a child who cannot get a lifesaving medical treatment? Over the past several years I have lost a tremendous ammount of equity in my home, and if I believed the current plan would be helpful I would support it. Truthfully I don't have any confidence in this plan, and I think I have good reasons for my beliefs.

    Love that "power of the purse!" It looks so nice up there on the mantle (and not the table) next to the "subpoena power."

    by Sacramento Dem on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:42:13 AM PDT

  •  as always... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, sephius1 are right that it is not all our fault, but, particularly beginning in 1980, and again, 1994 "we" elected people who have done this to our country, and share some of the blame, it seems to me.

    More of these ravings at the website listed in my profile.

    by Barth on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:42:35 AM PDT

  •  Reality check (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lobbygow, adigal, Granny Doc

    Since we live in a democracy it is our fault. What did we do to stop this train wreck - we voted: okay that's a start - when the Bushies stole the election in 2000 what did we do? a few thousand turned out and protested - that's pathetic - the basis of our freedom (fair elections) was threatened and only a few thousand could take to the streets. We love to set back and say it's not our fault that our leaders are assholes and screw us over - I can't do anything about it wah-wah-wah. Yes we can! We are doing a little bit to change things here. But do we really change our lives to change the world? No we don't. Most of us are to damn lazy or comfortable. It will be our fault when the world is overrun with people (Granny I know you are a zero population advocate - bless you). What happens in our world is our fault. The first thing we have to do is accept responsibility for cleaning up the mess - whether the mess is global warming or out of control corporations or anyone of a dozen other problems that threaten our world.

    At this point we have more to worry about than who is getting blamed for what. We better slog in and clean out the septic tank or drown in our own...  

    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright" Curt Siodmak

    by Wisdumb on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:44:11 AM PDT

  •  The Economic Elites are Pissing Their Pants (4+ / 0-)

    because of the drop in the stock market.

    All the millionaires on TV care about is the stock market.  They couldn't find Main Street even with a map, a GPS receiver, and a guide dog.

    I don't know if a bailout is even needed.  But I also know that Ph.D. economists don't know, either.  Their predictions are based on false and oversimplified assumptions about markets.  And any logician can tell you what happens when you try to draw conclusions from false assumptions.

    All I can say is, if they pass a bailout, it had better include the requirements that Obama said last week were needed: help for homeowners, protection for taxpayers, no golden parachutes for CEOs, and oversight by Congress.

  •  Why not propose Wall Street 2.0 for the whiz kids (5+ / 0-)

    Granny Doc sez:

    One thing I do know.  This is not our fault.  We did not set up the conditions for this mess.  We did not play in the hedge fund, sub-prime, toxic paper sand box.  And, whatever the outcome, exercising our democratic right to tell our Representatives to vote the package down, does not make this our fault, either.


    These instruments are nothing more than legalized gambling that, unfortunately, add more completely unnecessary joints and piping to the already complicated Rube Goldberg plumbing works that contains the global money flow.

    Wall Street 1.0 should be highly regulated and exist only for the purpose of issuing and trading stock to provide capital to actual providers of goods and services. Banks should be allowed to provide loans and collect interest for the service, but that's it.

    Wall Street 2.0 should be an entirely separate playing field kind of like Second Earth or Fantasy Baseball. It's a zero-sum game where the "Masters of the Universe," as Tom Wolfe calls them, can bet all they want on any number of peculiar wagers they can invent. However, the new regulations for Wall Street 1.0 means that they won't be able to take out a loan for it. They can only do it with their own money. No bank will loan you money to go try your luck at the craps table.

    The whole caste of financial whiz kids, and, yes, they are a caste, needs to be kicked out of the actual market, which should fundamentally serve consumers and service providers. People that actually, you know, make or use stuff.

    Think about it. These high stakes financial gamblers and the financial illuminati that defend them are a VERY SMALL MINORITY of voters, taxpayers, and SHAREHOLDERS. Some may think the phrase "privatize the profits, publicize the risk" is a trite phrase, but it certainly is accurate.

    We'll have enough problems living within our means as it is without these Jokers gumming up the works with their private game of financial Calvinball.

    To paraphrase Shakespeare:

    "First, let's kill all the hedge fund managers."

  •  Yeah it's my fracking fault because (4+ / 0-)

    and I will willingly and with great pride accept the blame

    when Paulson submitted his 3 page "bail out my friends screw the american public proposal" I, ME,  drew myself from my sick bed ( doctors are still waiting to see if I have TB or Whooping cough, and everday I hack away) and wrote to my rep and Kerry and said " DO NOT ACCEPT THIS PLAN"
    and I never wrote back in favor of any of the "improvements" ....

    Yesterday I expressed irritation to a Naderite friend that it didn't pass BUT my worry is over the credit contraction and my eldest kids getting student loans, keeping their jobs, and not having to feel pushed into the military to do it.

    And got called a "right winger" because of it.

    This morning at Americablog I went off

    My oldest is trying to get through nursing school, called me yesterday and told me she is signing the bottom line for the National Guard so that she can go to college.

    This is what I fought to avoid... how many of you fucking CEOs who raped and robbed this country and got your triple golden parachutes are getting a call from your kids saying that they have to go into the military so that they can go to college.

    I didn't end with how I felt which is "FUCK YOU ALL!"
    let your fucking ships go down, you have no compunction about sinking mine (and my IRA and my husbnad's 401k is tanking too)

    If u will not vote for the Dem. nominee, no matter who that is, go apologize 2 the youth of this nation. U've helped put in "100 years of war no Choice McCain."

    by Clytemnestra on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:49:39 AM PDT

  •  awesome post granny (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sockpuppet, Clytemnestra, Granny Doc

    God forbid the wall st. types have to fly coach!

  •  I KNEW IT! SOCKPUPPET!!!! (6+ / 0-)

    No living American pays for things in cash and has no debt. This such a blatant and shameful lie that I'm amazed I didn't see you for what you were a long time ago, clearly a sockpuppet.

    Granny is a plant folks, don't listen to her, sure people want to make you believe it's your money and your government. But that's not the point, you need to understand tha-


    Holy shit, log off right now and call all your friends, this is no time to be messing around with stupid crap like public policy and legislation.

    My god... I though he LOVED HER! I feel so betrayed.

    "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers." - Thomas Pynchon

    by Windowdog on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:52:15 AM PDT

  •  Yep, it's my fault (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, La Gitane

    Like Granny Doc, I'm a fiscal conservative.  If it can't be bought with cash, I don't buy it.  Except for our home, a little 1950s-era ranch house on less than 1/4 acre, bought in 1990, paid off in 2004.

    I'm fine with the failure to bail out the big greedy crybabies somehow being my fault.  I can sleep at night.  Now, my Congressional rep, Jan Schakowsky, voted for the bailout bill.  Her seat is very, very safe.  Maybe I'll write her again today and make some suggestions for the next version of the bailout/rescue bill.

  •  The perps worked for Goldman, etc. (6+ / 0-)
    The perps worked for Goldman, Morgan and the other speculators and paper pushers. One of the people who was involved in all this is Treasury Secretary Paulson. Now he wants us to trust him!

    30 to 1  or even 80 to 1 leverage, AAA ratings on pools of high risk mortgages, etc.

    They were scamming people.

    Now the perps want free money and they are trying to scare us by saying that the real economy will be hurt.

    As a former wall street trader I see the lies coming fast and furious.

    They are trying to steal money and power.

    They have bought lots of politicians and media people.

    The people have won so far. WARNING! they will try again.

    Keep up the pressure. Call your rep. Thank them if they voted no. If they voted yes, tell them that you are watching, saw what they did, and you will take what they do into consideration when you vote.

    Learn more here and elsewhere:

    No free money for the perps

  •  fault (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrkvica, Granny Doc, Mr Tentacle, tunney

    We did not play in the hedge fund, sub-prime, toxic paper sand box.  

    Nor did we spend a generation laboring mightily to remove every last vestige of the New Deal, including the oversight and regulation designed to prevent the sort of crisis we're seeing now.

    "I'm not negative - I'm ANGRY!" -- Howard the Duck

    by Roddy McCorley on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:58:41 AM PDT

  •  Warning: rant enclosed (11+ / 0-)

    All of my savings/IRA/401k are flat: cash or Treasury-backed money markets. So I have no personal stake in the market crashing or rocketing up (and believe  me, I want the latter as much as anyone). I've weathered the storm so far and have not lost a dime (other than to inflation of course) since last fall. If you sat there and watched your savings plummet but did nothing other than bawl and pule, tough shit. Don't listen to advisors; they are always trying to sell you something. Put your money where it is safest. Cash, Treasury-backed money market funds, interest-only options in most 401ks, etc. Don't waste time and money with gold or whatever else the panic-mongers are pushing in hopes of a profit. If you'd been paying attention in the first place you would have become cautious and proactive last fall.

    We all haven a vital stake in the outcome for generations to come. That is why I have been so adamantly opposed to this looting of the treasury to bail out both the pigmen on Wall Street and the pig-people out in the 'burbs who gorged on credit with no means or even intention of repaying it.

    I've been broke, bankrupt, homeless, sold drugs and let old guys blow me so I could pay the rent. I know from down and out. It sucked. Now I have no debt, a credit score like you wouldn't believe, a 17-year-old car, rent a modest place close enough to work that I walk every day, and have been prudent and careful with my money. People like me have been made fools for years by the public and now by this bill. No more.

    Guess what? I don't care that you* "bought" an oversized, overpriced house at the top of the market with an insane magic mortgage. I don't care that you maxed out your cards on crap, took out a HELOC to pay it off only to max them out again, that you can't afford the new reset on your loan, or the payments and fuel for your Hummers and Harleys, or that lil' Ashford and Madysyn won't get new iPhones for Xmas and might have to go to public schools, etc.

    Suck it up and ACT, even if only for yourselves. If your rep voted No, call and thank them. Yes? Call and yell. This thing ain't over.

    *I mean the generic overpampered spoiled American "you", not... well, you know.

    me talk pretty one day.

    by mudskipper on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:58:42 AM PDT

  •  AMEN (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

    by Thought Crime on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 09:59:30 AM PDT

  •  Thanks, granny (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    adigal, Granny Doc, tunney

    It's good to know that there are still some folks who manage to have money and values at the same time. Now, could you please teach that too--oh, never mind.

    I find it more than odd that the "values voters" are voting for the folks who are the greediest.  Greed is a moral value.

  •  Welfare Emperors. (5+ / 0-)

    I don't care if Wall Street blames us - they're getting what they deserve for ignoring the theory of moral hazard.

    Who's to say they won't do the exact same thing again if the bailout bill passes?  They'll just be dumping a load of crap on the Treasury and go back to making liar's loans...

    9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

    by varro on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 10:01:36 AM PDT

  •  It is our fault (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrkvica, adigal, Granny Doc, tunney

    as a nation, for voting (or almost voting) these arseholes in.

    But, I agree with you on the rest.

  •  I used to work with two slackers (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    they would hide in the back and play volley ball with a piece of paper wadded up into a ball.

    Wall Street paper volley ball.

    Now they should fix it?

    Deregulate my check book, McCain, yeah that's it, that's the ticket

    by 88kathy on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 10:02:42 AM PDT

  •  Unfortunately, we bear some share of the blame. (6+ / 0-)

    People have been foolish enough to believe that they can buy a 300,000 house, drive a hoggish planet-killing SUV, watch a 84 inch TV to ingest their nightly ration of idiocy, and somehow, through I suppose, magic, it would all be paid for eventually.  Wall Street: Crooks. Major crooks.  The "little guys"? Petty thieves.  Steal from children who make your clothes, steal the oxygen from your own kids' mouths, just so you can be "comfortable" today. I am not so sure that a depression would be a bad thing, in the long run. And, having said that out loud, let me add that I have worked in human services for many years, I work with those who have the least, and stand to lose the most, and I am scared to death.  

    It aint simple.  We need to fundamentally change our world view, as a culture.  Sky falling?  Maybe. Empire crumbling? Without doubt.  The histories of Rome and England are there to scour for clues.  It ain't gonna be pretty.

  •  Self-interest and desired outcome (5+ / 0-)

    What I don't know is the degree of their personal interest in insuring a specific outcome.

    I did a diary with a poll yesterday here and while I plan to collect some more data with a subsequent poll, one finding speaks to your question:

    For people with little or no investments in the stock market, nearly 2/3 were against the bailout.  People with significant investments in the stock market for the most part were split evenly between those for and against.  This suggests that those with no personal stake in the consequences of the bailout vote were more likely to be against it than those with a personal stake in the outcome.  So whereas self-interest is not the only factor shaping opinion about the bailout, it seems to play a significant role.

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

    by accumbens on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 10:10:54 AM PDT

  •  FDR's first inaugural on money changers. (9+ / 0-)

    Faced by failure of credit they have proposed only the lending of more money. Stripped of the lure of profit by which to induce our people to follow their false leadership, they have resorted to exhortations, pleading tearfully for restored confidence. They know only the rules of a generation of self-seekers. They have no vision, and when there is no vision the people perish.

    The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths. The measure of the restoration lies in the extent to which we apply social values more noble than mere monetary profit.

    I am not against all bailouts. I am against dumb bailouts.

    by organicdemocrat on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 10:12:46 AM PDT

  •  interesting post (7+ / 0-)

    One of the key reasons I am extremely suspicious of Paulson, and really the whole crew, is that they won't do a mea culpa. They won't admit they were wrong, explain what they did that was wrong, and tell how things will be different in the future.

    Instead, they just want our money, and they want us to stop asking questions.

    Why do you need money?
    It's a credit crisis.

    What's that?
    Companies can't get money.

    Why not?
    Lenders don't have money.

    Why not?
    No one will buy their assets at a price they want to sell them for.

    Since when do sellers get to set their price in a competitive marketplace?
    Uh, uh, this is an emergency. We need money. It's a credit crisis.

  •  How dare I live well within my means! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, dolphin777, tunney

    When I should have been spending myself silly these last few decades. For that I apologize to my fellow Americans. I will not go to run my credit well past its limit then start spending other people's money as if there is no tomorrow. <End of snark>

    Granny D, you have once again nailed your landing with Olympic precision.

    Let me do right to all, and wrong no man. - Dr. C. Savage, Jr.

    by pwrmac5 on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 10:15:24 AM PDT

  •  BREAKING: Obama now speaking to crowds (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theran, adigal

    at campaign stop!

    Reassuring folks in re bailout!

    Aloha   ..  ..  ..

  •  Aaaand... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    Little John Bohnier blamed the bruised feelings of his Hot House Flowers for failing to do his job as Minority Leader.  John McCain blamed Barack Obama for...something or other.  The Democrats blamed Paulson, the President blamed Congress, and the markets blame you.

    ...aaand everybody hates the Jews,
    but during National Brotherhood Week
    National Brotherhood Week
    National smile at one a
    National notherhood week...

    A little Tom Lehrer is, under the circumstances, warranted, I think.


  •  Granny, you could not be more mistaken (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JT88, edrie

    I'm no tycoon, squarely in the middle fifth of the income scale.

    But speaking of personal experience, unlike you, I have lived through a banking crisis (Russia 98), and it is no joke.

    We are all in this together means we are all in this together, like it or not.  Much as we would like to hold ourselves morally superior to the affluent beneficiaries of the system, like you (who most people would call rich), we are all responsible.

    In the US a banking crisis will be much worse, due to the vastly deeper structural role played by credit.  Probably worse than the Great Depression for just this reason.

    And there will be no second chances once it really starts.

    Those opposing the package are lemmings, urging us to resist  the nasty fence of government intervention to be built at the edge of the abyss.

    Left and right, they are possessed  by the ghosts of Hooverism, albeit with conflicting motivation.

    It is their right to scream, but they will be guilty for the catastrophe nonetheless.  Even if they don't understand the consequences of their actions, they will be guilty.

    The money planned is no more than the Resolution Trust Corporation in the 80's.  We survived that.  Why the hysteria now?

    We are like a group of employees standing around  the body of our creative entrepreneur employer, stricken down with a heart attack, arguing about his/her merits and faults, and who caused  him/her such stress, rather then administering CPR.

    Yes, Grannydoc, now especially after your diary - it is your fault.

    (And may be me too a little bit more for being, as usual, so endlessly provocative).

  •  This diary is the best!!!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, GreenDog

    "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, bamboozle 'em with bull shit"

  •  No, Granny Doc.... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Trendar, mrkvica, Kingsmeg, Granny Doc, tunney

    it's my fault....
    (hanging my head in shame....)
    I did own a home but had to sell it, I paid for Health Care Insurance out of my own pocket (because my job didn't consider me a permanent employee after 5 years) til I couldn't afford it, I was laid off and looked and looked for a job and finally took 2 very poorly paid jobs to pay skyrocketing bills.
    I have no stocks and no savings, certainly no golden parachute, but I confess, this mess is all my fault.
    Send me to jail (or debtor's prison), at least I won't have to worry about rent or bills there.

    I think, therefore I am........................... Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose AKA Engine Nighthawk - don't ask!/don't tell!

    by Lilyvt on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 10:22:01 AM PDT

  •  Should I apoligize? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrkvica, adigal, Granny Doc, tunney

    I did not mean to bring down Wall Street.

    Please send your old copies of Strunk's "The Elements of Style" to Pathetic Palin.

    by redtex on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 10:42:21 AM PDT

  •  Some of Our Fault (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, iBlue

    One thing I do know.  This is not our fault.  We did not set up the conditions for this mess.  We did not play in the hedge fund, sub-prime, toxic paper sand box.  And, whatever the outcome, exercising our democratic right to tell our Representatives to vote the package down, does not make this our fault, either.

    Well, I didn't invest in a hedge fund, borrow a sub-prime mortgage, or buy any toxic paper - and it seems you didn't, either. But there is no shortage of people out here, even among the progressives posting on Daily Kos, who did indeed do so. Those people did indeed help set up those conditions. This mess is indeed partly their fault.

    It's not entirely their fault. The government and the banks' own self interest is supposed (by most of us) to protect the system from collapse through unsupportable abuse, so even benefiting from a system clearly crooked is not necessarily entirely a reckless act. The bankers, politicos, economists and financial media gatekeepers are all much more at fault than the individual  borrowers, perhaps even than those borrowers who committed their own frauds to try for profit in this gamed system.

    But that fault is not exclusively in the "experts". And there's nothing stopping those people from posting on blogs, or hassling their political reps, either. But when they compound their fault by insisting that those of us actually without fault take a hit without having gotten the benefit, just to protect their faulty benefits, they are way out of line. And when they plunge even deeper into whining when some of us work to abort that faulty bailout, their faults are intolerable.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 10:46:20 AM PDT

  •  We elected the Gov't that let it happen.. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrkvica, Granny Doc, tunney, iBlue

    That made it happen.

    In a democracy you get the government you deserve, and this mess (and others looming) are the result.

    We have a chance to change that in November.

  •  Thanks for talkin' sense, Dr. Granny (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ssgbryan, adigal, Granny Doc, tunney

    and since I presume you're an MD (or DO) kinda doc, I'd be honored if you'd read my diary from a few days ago commenting on a piece in JAMA this week on empowered patients.

  •  Thanks for a great diary (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ssgbryan, Jean, Granny Doc, tunney

    The root of the problem is sub-prime mortgage. Plain and simple.
    And yeap, the GOP will says "it is your fault to buy a house when you couldn't afford it". Sure, buyers are who sign the contract!

    I heard on NPR the other day that they have a term for it, "liar loans": the lenders told home buyers that they didn't have to show proof of income, just gave credit scores (even poor) to get huge loan to buy houses. They gave examples like people with 2 jobs with $40K/year can get a loan for half a million.

    Now if you are fiscally ok, and not borrow more than you can to buy a house, then even now, you are still ok to pay mortgage. No problem. (And granny, you are OK because you are old enough to have accumulated wealth but I am talking about those in mid 30s and 40s, who just start on their first house).

    But it is those subprimes who default at rate 40 to 50% (according to NPR).

    Is it "your fault"?

    It is not. It is the lenders whose practice is less than ethical in the first place. They would not get into the subprimes if the lenders did not lend them and did not tell home buyers lies to get them into the hook.

    Consumers are clueless so it is government to protect them.
    That is why they need regulations so the wicked greed can't run wildy.

    Great diary. It will be "it's your fault" talking point for the GOP.

    McCain is not Bush III. He will be worse than Bush.

    by iBlue on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 10:51:12 AM PDT

  •  Manipulating Main St to force bailout (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ssgbryan, propitious2, Granny Doc, tunney

    If we think they won't deny some loans, close some banks, and increase the pressure on their puppets in DC to convince us we will lose everything, we haven't been living here for the last eight years.

    Times are a changin' and they want their golden parachutes before they completely bail out.

    If we cannot elect this man, we don't deserve him.

    by lisastar on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 10:55:38 AM PDT

  •  Corporate media (4+ / 0-)

    The name says it all, really.

    So I'm so glad you made the point that's been troubling me:

    There are no disinterested players in the public sphere.  There are no disinterested observers, and no disinterested commentators.  Everyone who opens their mouth on the financial markets has a horse in this race

    The media actually uses people from big banks or stockbroking companies to analyse the markets on a daily basis, so we've been being fed the partisan view for a long time.

    I know your comment is wider than that -- even general reporters, anchors, bloggers etc can be talking from a position of vested (invested?) interest, but the standard mainstream media finance reporter has almost always been inside the game.

  •  Luv ya but wrongo, GrannyDoc. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, Kathy S

    One of the techniques that is flourishing at the moment is to try to defend this bailout by overwhelming you with technical issues.  Stopping shorts, mark to market, the LIBOR to TED ratio, you won't get a loan, businesses will fail, you will loose your job, the sky is falling.  See?  You just don't understand and should step back and let the experts make these decisions.  

    My comments on the technical and very real issues facing global capital markets are not a "technique" intended to badger anyone into supporting the Paulson Package. In fact, I called that Plan D.O.A. when I first saw it.  I do support the compromise plan and understand it could be improved markedly or even replaced by a primarily Democratic plan, if our leaders are willing to accept the potential electoral fallout.

    Rather, my comments (some techinical in nature) and warnings about inaction are offered to help fellow Kossacks understand the ramifications of sitting on their hands. I've personally been frustrated because  very few on this site (or anywhere else for that matter) know how bond markets and global payments systems actually work.  It's not their fault (because few people actually do understand the mechanisms) buy I do fault some here for incuriousity about the ramifications of systemic failure.  Buffett and Barack both say "catastrophic".  I agree.  Inaction or delay is not an option.

    Here's a quick read about my world right now (today) written in fairly general terms.  If nothing happens by Thursday, things will deteriorate quickly. If Asia throws in the towel on addl US dollar Tsy and GSE securities, deterioration will happen at lightspeed.

    Here's an excerpt:

    Financial company bond yields have jumped to a record 6.97 percentage points more than Treasuries on average from 3.64 percentage points at the end of August, Merrill index data show.

    ``My goodness that's unheard of,'' Lonski said. ``In all likelihood financial institutions and banks will tighten lending standards even further. That will have the effect of practically guaranteeing some reduction in economic activity.''

    Please read it.  If this gets worse it will be very bad indeed for mom and pop retail to the big box store, professionals like CPA's and lawyers to the person on the loading dock.  The kid who wants to go to college with loans to the small business that wants to expand and hire.  Inaction will stop the flow of credit...and soon. It is already happening.

    P.S. It's primarily Greenspan's fault, with bipartisan enabling from politicians and from Wall Street.  Many Joe Q. Public's and investors out there may have misbehaved and assumed too much risk and leverage, but they generally did so while being encouraged by credit providers.  That doesn't completely absolve them, though.

    "Those dunes are to the Midwest what the Grand Canyon is to Arizona and the Yosemite is to California." - Carl Sandburg

    by Critical Dune on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 11:00:34 AM PDT

  •  Pelosi the loser (0+ / 0-)

    "Little John Boehner blamed the bruised feelings of his Hot House Flowers for failing to do his job as Minority Leader."

    What about little Nancy Pelosi?  Remember her?  Speaker of the House.  She lost over 90 democrats on the bill along with the republicans.

    Plus, Pelosi and Reid have been in control of Congress for two years.  You remember Congress.  It's that place where there is oversight of the banking industry by your elected officials.

  •  Granny, you could be a true patriot (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    if you are, as you say, "very affluent".  Return the SS check.  SS is meant to be a backup. Someone else obviously needs it more than you do.

    I resented that my father double-dipped (his own gleeful term) from the government with both SS and a military pension.  

    Sorry if this sounds harsh, but we can't sit down over coffee where I could gently bring it up.  

    "'s not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got." Sheryl Crow

    by bob zimway on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 11:19:01 AM PDT

  •  gran, its time for you to pay your carpet tax - (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    put it right here, in the bag.

    we'll stand him up against a wall and pop goes the weasel /rufus t. firefly

    by 2nd balcony on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 11:21:27 AM PDT

  •  Amen, sistah! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    Fell in love with you after reading your diary yesterday.  Damn, I learned a LOT!  I put my husband to shame, and he handles the finances.  I'm usually ignorant about such things.

    You motivated me to go out there and try my best to get it because it is my duty, IMO.

    You rawk, girl!

  •  GrannyDoc, you aren't getting older, (3+ / 0-)

    you're getting better. Best diary, yet.

    This week I have watched our government and business leaders traipse across the screen, commenting on the latest events.

    I would rather put my life savings in the hands of my 14 year old grandson, than them. He is smarter than they are.

    No words can describe how I felt listening to those we pin our future on.  Sickened and filled with despair.

    I am infuriated that they use our jobs, retirement, investments, annuities and insurance as weapons.  "Give us $700 billion or ......"

    I wonder how we got in this position.  A corporate press can be blamed, (IMHO) for helping put in a group that works with business, but who don't have business minds.

    Our leaders have given business everything they wanted because it will 'save jobs' or 'help the poor or elderly' or  'help the stock market' when in reality it mostly helped the business community 'help themselves to our money.'  Every program set up to help our people has been turned into a profit machine.

    Those who have committed fraud are still on the loose and some even walk around the halls of congress and are treated with respect.

    DH and I are set up about like you, except we only have one home and we have medical bills on a zero interest card. We are updating and repairing our home, too. We only have two stocks outside of our 401k and have lost money on them.  We pulled out of the 401k stocks after losing money.  

    I worry about my three daughters and their families, plus I worry about the future of all our younger generations.

    My kids have been affected by every mess that has hit this country. You name it and one or the other has been hit with it. Loss of job, housing costs, can't change jobs because of losing insurance, high costs and low pay, even a foreclosure they escaped by barely selling their home in time, etc.

    And at the end of the day, after years of chaos, I hear the S&P is the same as it was the day Bush took office.

  •  the part of it where it IS our fault is voting (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Marie, Granny Doc, filby

    WE the people (not us here in liberal land) but the collective WE voted in the republicans that let this all happen.

    Yes in reality both Gore and Kerry won...but why was it even close enough for them to steal?

    Whose fault it is is the people with closed minds who allow themselves to be brainwashed by pastors, tv ads, and dishonest politicians.

  •  Ok.. it's all my fault! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Marie, Granny Doc

    Hell.. I've been married for 35 years so I'm kinda used to taking the blame for everything by now.

    But seriously.. it's everyone's fault.  "We" are a society living on debt for way too long and it has caught up with us.  Doesn't matter that you personally have done well, or have been smart enough to live without debt.  Society in general hasn't made good monetary decisions.

    And what did "we" do to promote that?  We elected people who relaxed the lending laws.  And before you shout "but I never voted for a Republican in my life!", let me just say you didn't need to.

    The Democrats in Congress have just as much guilt in this as anyone.  I have watched videos of Barney Frank and Maxine Waters chastising regulators for daring to report that Fannie and Freddie were facing catastrophe... and this is years ago.

    Our elected officials of all stripes basically told Fannie and Freddie to lend money to just about anyone.. and buy up all the loans of the private institutions that were poorly rated.  And the spending spree began!

    So, no it's not our fault.. it's not their fault.. it's everyone's fault and it's a shame to see what a mess this country has become.

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

    by Skeptical Bastard on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 11:55:57 AM PDT

  •  I was outraged when one blogger (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, filby, SciVo

    yesterday suggested that our Reps should ignore us when we call them.  I asked him/her to go on record saying they should not answer their phones and read their mail from those they represent.  How fascist is that and how foolish.

    "Is this the United States Congress or the board of directors of Goldman Sachs?" -- Dennis Kucinich

    by noofsh on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 11:57:28 AM PDT

  •  Bailout Short Cycle/payback Long Cycle (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, SciVo

     Give Wall Street a taste of their own medicine and show the bastards how stupid we really are by giving a bailout with short cycle billions and make them pay back in long cycle billions.
    A short cycle billion is a 1000 million
    A long cycle billion is a million million

    And by the way how much is really loss and how much is less greedy profit?

    Thank you GrannyDoc

  •  thanks granny doc (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JT88, Granny Doc, pinkbunny

    I am in the same place financially as you. I have one credit card I pay off in full all the time.  I have no debt and I am in no fear even if a depression should come calling in the next two weeks.  I moved all my investments into cash and treasury securities at the beginning of this year.

    I am in the financial services industry and I believe we need to do something fast.  I am not particularly sold on the paulson plan.

    But we need to free up inter-bank lending.

    Whatever it takes.

    We can solve the broader problem when Obama is president and we have a filibuster proof majority in the senate.

  •  Thanks again, Granny (6+ / 0-)

    We're of similar circumstances, I do have a little finance background, and I say no way to a bailout as defined by Paulson or the current cosmetically different House bill. The facts do not support the cries of pending doom. Getting credit is as easy as saying, "My FICO is over 800" and I'm all in favor of further "deleveraging" of zero-value holdings.

    I just watched MSNBC - the place where mornings Contessa can be heard saying delay in passing Paulson's Bill is treason - and Harwood is saying that "bank accounts are not safe" and "all Americans need credit."

    These are false statements, lies, intended to put panic in the hearts of Americans who don't know better.

    No, we don't need credit. And as those fortunate enough to have know, as long as your bank accounts are split into $100k allotments they are federally insured and that insurance is ready and recently refueled with cash.

    To build up public support, they interviewed Jill Abramson, the NYT editor in charge of the "debt crisis" news reporting. Yes, this very same Jill Abramson who managed the NYT reporting in the run up to the Invasion of Iraq. Yes, this same person who publicly admitted, "I Failed" because of her paper's flimsy claims that WMDs were present had no basis in fact. An editor with no credibility is the only one they could get to come on and support the Treasury and Bush's scheme?

    Yes, partly they just think we're stupid, but also partly they really don't think we pay attention.

    Congress should insist on the firing of Paulson, Bernanke, and Cox and design an emergency national economic action legislation that will stop the root causes of the problems and construct safety legislation for those most in need, including small businesses. Then Congress needs to urgently reregulate and address more systemic problems that may require a new New Deal for the new century.

    "This is a fight for the future. And it's a fight we must win...Obama is my candidate. And he must be our President." Hillary Clinton, DNC, August 26, 2008

    by kck on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 12:52:40 PM PDT

  •  First (Republican) rule is: (5+ / 0-)

    It's never our fault.

    Second rules is: we (as opposed to YOU) have no rules.

    "She's not prepared to be governor. How can she be prepared to be vice president or president?" - Alaska State Senate President Lyda Green (R)

    by brainiacamor on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 01:04:01 PM PDT

  •  i'm sorry but it is my fault (5+ / 0-)

    i was sacrificing a goat to my God Imhoeteppicha a few months back and i'm afraid I got the 'good weather for my holiday' incantation confused with the 'global credit crunch' incantation. my bad :(

  •  2004 (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Marie, Granny Doc

    Democracies get what they deserve.

    Nice of us to finally wake up with once the barn door was wide open and go chasing after livestock.  Better yet if we had shut it first.

  •  thanx, Granny! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, GreenDog

    I've been thinking this same thing all day, but you lay it all out so well. And, gosh, wasn't it amazing when the market gained 485 pts today, after that dramatic fall yesterday?

  •  You ROCK, Granny Doc. n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, GreenDog

    "If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -James Madison

    by JJC on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 01:44:06 PM PDT

  •  right on, Granny Doc! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrkvica, Kingsmeg, Granny Doc, SciVo

    (insert terrorist fist bump)

    The patronization on tv yesterday was palpable: "the stupid uniformed unwashed masses just don't get it."

    I get it. As I read it put most succinctly: the banks are holding us hostage with a gun to their head.

    "Watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, fanatical, criminal..."-7.75, -7.28

    by solesse413 on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 01:45:18 PM PDT

  •  As usual, you put it only the way you (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, GreenDog

    can and I appreciate it very much.

    The problem for me is that this whole thing has made me realize that I'm dumb as a stump.  I've thrown up my hands to try to pretend I know what the best course of action is.  So then I have to go with the people I trust.  But then people I trust are on both sides of the issue and make compelling arguments that seem to contradict each other.  So then I go back to bed for a nap.

    The readiness is all

    by mrchumchum on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 01:59:17 PM PDT

  •  I may not know much Granmama (0+ / 0-)

    But I know when banks stop lending, we're all in big trouble.  No car loans, no home loans, no loans period.

    If you're a liberal you believe in government intervention, don't you?  Oh I get it, not to the 'fatcats'.  Well some of us regular folk have money in some of those big banks, and are wondering if we'lll ever see that money again. So something needs to be done, this plan has problems, but the other plans have more.

    If you have a better idea Granny, I'd like to hear it.  I read no ideas about solutions in your rec'd diary so if you have some, please let me know.

    One more thing, sub-prime lending is lending to poor people, are you saying you don't want to lend to poor people anymore?  I hope not.


  •  My calls to Congress (4+ / 0-)

    started with outrage, then I began to beg, now I am offering up ideas.

    You must keep it up people.

    If they are up for reelection, put some fear into them.

  •  I faxed my Rep today (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    northsylvania, Granny Doc

    and told him (he voted for the bailout--H.R. 3779, I think) that I was glad to see bailout plan #1 die. Now is the time for a forceful push to get better regulations, as well as Congressional review and revision functions of the payments plan itself. Then there's what the Swedes did and we might want to copy: actually buy equity in the banks, not just their junk instruments. The equity and be sold back to the banks later and the $ can be given back to taxpayers w/ rebates or applied to our key needs, like a better health care system.

  •  It's those damn poor people and their loans... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    ...if they didn't have the foresight to stay away from those loans, who are the banks that gave them credit to blame for those at risk loans overvalued by at most $175 billion?

    Why does the narrative always begin with plain talk about imprudent mortgages and not imprudent lenders or outright highstakes gambling on Wall Street. Most of the bailout seems targeted at the latter two problems at the expense of the former.

    In the end, I say this whole fiasco resulted from a deficit in public education which prevents consumers from being any sort of utility maximizer. Without this self-editting function in the market the capitalist endeavor is doomed to failure. This very concept is a core concept of capitalism itself.

  •  It's our fault because the bright bulbs on (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrkvica, Paul Goodman, Granny Doc

    Wall Street have been trained at home, uni and in business to believe that they can never make a mistake. Especially a big one. That is why they keep making the same mistakes over and over again with their ponzi-like investment schemes.

    "The fact which the politician faces is merely that there is less honor among thieves than was supposed, and not the fact that they are thieves." Thoreau

    by shigeru on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 03:42:24 PM PDT

  •  "Hell, it could be my fault"... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

    by ImpeachKingBushII on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 04:04:48 PM PDT

  •  Great answer to RenaRF's Condescending Diary (4+ / 0-)

    of yesterday, telling us we were all too stupid to understand and that she was putting herself out to speak slowly to us.

    Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

    by BentLiberal on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 04:35:32 PM PDT

  •  well done (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, WedtoReason

    about three-quarters of the way through I had the urge to start singing the diary.  It kind of reads that way for me.  

    Hooray for Joy and Whoopie!

    by jjellin on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 04:37:35 PM PDT

  •  Clinton blamed democrats for not stopping him from (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    signing Gramm's crap

    Cracker Jack McCain A crisp sailor on the outside A cheap prize inside that's useless after 1 go.

    by JerichoJ8 on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 05:30:47 PM PDT

  •  LIBOR rates (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    I thought it might be helpful to actually put out some historical data so we can see just how scarily high today's rates are. These are the 1 month variety.

    In September 1990: 8.297
    In September 1995: 5.922
    In September 2000: 6.62
    In September 2005: 3.8584
    In September 2007: 5.4927
    September 24, 2008: 3.21
    September 30, 2008: 3.92625

    Wow, banks are scared to lend to each other. They raised the interest rate from 3.21% all the way up to 3.93%! For good measure, let's say banks are so scared right now, they're underreporting their lending costs-by 25%!

    Not only would that mean borrowers whose loans are tied to the LIBOR are getting a subsidized loan, but it drives the 'adjusted' number all the way up to the historically unprecedented rate of...wait for it...5.24%, a rate less than...wait for it...we had a year ago.

  •  horse race tickets for sale....used (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    not a winner in the bunch but if you hold on to them for a, no, no, you have to bury them in three inches of dirt for six months and you can't look, not even once, 'cause if you do it won't work.

    by tRueffert on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 05:46:57 PM PDT

  •  Paternalism masquerading as wisdom (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc
    Nothing pisses me off more than paternalism. Really. When I was 15, I convinced my parents to change veterinarians after our vet talked down to me.

    The architects of failure insist on patting us atop our pretty little heads and telling us that we can't possibly understand what we're talking about. My gut reaction is two short words, and the first one begins with "f".

    Most people at one time or another have bought something used. They know that the price is lower for the used thing than if they'd bought it new, and that the seller has lost money in selling it to them. They know that paying full price for the used version would be a folly. They know that they don't owe the difference in price to the seller. And they know that they are not the ones who bought the new thing to begin with.

    That's all they really need to know in order to understand the issue. We didn't buy a pig in a poke, and we don't owe the folks who did buy pigs in pokes anything. The pig-poke buyers can threaten us, and even make good on the threats, but that doesn't change the equation. They screwed up and they want us to bail them out.

    Well, we know that the boat in which the financial system is sailing is worth less than it was when the boat was being built.

    We know that, as homeowners, we're being keelhauled by the falling value of our primary asset.

    We also know that we didn't build the boat, and more important, that we didn't drill the great big hole in the bottom.

    We know that the boat will need to be bailed, or it will sink. And since we're hoping to come back out from under it when our keelhauling is over, we don't want it sinking on top of us.

    So we're not willing to hand over a big bucket to the guys in the boat without also making sure that (a) the hole is being patched and (b) the boat guys are no longer holding a drill.

    Which makes today's discovery of the $0 reserve clause in the bailout bill especially infuriating. They're asking for a really big bucket AND a really big drill bit!

    Beware the everyday brutality of the averted gaze

    by mataliandy on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:07:36 PM PDT

  •  It's the damn Iraq War that has us in this mess. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc, jennyL

    I can't believe that as a nation, we are overlooking the most pressing reason why the economy has been in such dire straits recently, and since George W. Bush (in in any case any member of the Bush family) has been in the Whitehouse.  The fundamental reason why our country is pressed hard economically is THE IRAQ WAR.  How many BILLIONS of dollars have we spent so far?  This economic bailout is peanuts compared to what we have wasted in Iraq.  Money wasted to the military contractors like Haliburton, Blackwater, etc...  As a nation we were lied to by Bush and McCain that once the military acheived its objective, Iraqi oil reserves would fund the war, and perhaps improve our economy since it was already in trouble.  

    Wake up America, the Iraq War has put us into this economic situation.

  •  Thanx for exposing the spin against We the People (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    I was listening to NPR while painting my house, and I nearly fell off my ladder, they were spinning me so fast.

    How dare the American people call their Congressmen?  How dare the Congressmen pander to their constituents?  How ridiculous!  This is just how our government is supposed to work!  It's a democracy, Wall Street con artists, get used to it.

    The batting record of these jokers, who are insulting the judgment of you and me, is dismal.  Who are they to dis us?

    I have also been reading some of the comments here on DailyKos, and they sound like they are coming out of Wall Street and Neocon-land.

    I read an articleon Salon about how the right wing has ghost writers for letters to the the editor.  I think that they must also be bankrolling a lot of the anonymous Kossacks, who are propagandizing their pack of lies, threatening us with doomsday if we don't pay them $700 billion protection money.

    Some of the diaries that got Rec'd really fast were as badly written as the bail out bill, which makes me wonder if those ghost Kossacks Rec themselves up.

    Well, Granny, at least you are for real.  Your diaries are home spun, always informative, and you are definitely not an apparition.

    Information is the currency of democracy. ~ T.J.

    by CIndyCasella on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 07:43:48 PM PDT

  •  Late but hope (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    I've come late to this discussion and I know others have already weighed in, but I hope I can add just my own opinion...

    There is a real crisis out there. Think of it as a hurricane on the horizon. We've been getting some of the early "bands" blowing in, but not yet the body of the storm.

    Paulson and Co. have a proposed solution that may or may not work. It has some of the elements in it that may keep the storm offshore. Some of those elements are not ones we'd like to see under the best circumstances, but Paulson has to cajole many part of the financial establishment to carry water for him....

    Mark to market can be though of as "realistic value for assets." We just got that not long ago as a reform. If we give it up, we will have no idea what the heck anything in the investment community is worth. You can see why the wingnut crowd wants to do away with it. This is the Shock Doctrine at work; they've seen an opportunity and they want to screw us up properly.

    Our whole financial system is at risk here. It has not been a sudden development, it's been coming on for some time. Any solution is going to hurt, the key is balancing hurt and help. If we don't get some solution, the bottom could drop out. We really don't want to see that.

    So, be skeptical of specific proposals if you wish, Granny, but be aware that there really is a storm out there. It may blow past us or it may make landfall as a Cat 5.

  •  Actually it was my fault. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    I didn't go out and blow my $600 stimulus on bright, shiny,useless, Chinese crap. I put the darn thing in the bank and see what happened.  So everybody just blame me.  

    Since I caused it just please be so kind as to send my $700 billion in care of Hanna's Tavern in Oly. WA and I'll buy all of ya a round on the taxpayers. My treat really.  

    Thanks for understanding.  

    "Vote Your Hopes Not Your Fears."

    by YellerDog on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:09:23 PM PDT

  •  thnks GrannyDoc for saying what I think (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Granny Doc

    shrill politics, shrill wallstreeters, and a prezdilnet and his cabinet who never gave a shit about common Americans, in uniform or civilian, unless of course, your there to cut the grass. nobody bails me out when I lose money in the markets, and I don't expect them to either. my money, my decision, my fault. bailout stinks.


    by pickandshovel on Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 08:25:29 PM PDT

  •  Yes, it is our fault. m. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by: