Daily Kos

Race and polling

Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 09:54:22 AM PDT

There have been numerous diaries about the disparity between Obama’s poll victory and his loss in the actual election. People are still talking about a “Bradley Effect,” and Thomas Edsall’s recent piece on Huffpo revisits it as an explanation for the disparity between polls and votes cast for Obama in New Hampshire.

Why beat this dead piñata? Because we’re heading into new primaries with new polling, and also because I keep seeing a dominant obviously false argument being made about this and am tired of it. But I also want to ask: how can we test to see if the Bradley hypothesis is true in future races?

[As a caveat, this is not an anti-Clinton diary. I think that most Clinton supporters believe there is still racism in the US, and support remedies to neutralize it. This diary is about how the pollsters could have overestimated Obama's polling strength by such a consistent margin. I’m not saying the reason people were surprised by Clinton’s strong showing was solely that Obama’s poll numbers reflected false reports that had to do with race (which is widely thought to have happened with Mayor of Los Angeles Tom Bradley’s 1982 campaign for California Governor).]

What is the false argument?

Here is Bill Schneider’s analysis offered on CNN:

To keep them honest, we compared those polls with the actual vote. The big discrepancy was in the Clinton vote. She got nine points more support than the polls predicted. Edwards' vote was close. Obama's vote was right on target, 37 percent in the polls, 37 percent in the primary. Obama got exactly what the polls predicted. No evidence of a racial effect. (h/t HoneyBearKelly, Gravastar)

A similar argument is part of yesterday’s diary here on this subject:

If you look at the polls, Obama got was averaging 38.7 percent (37, 42, 41, 39, 35, 38, 39) in 7 pre-New Hampshire polls. He got 36 percent when all of the votes were counted, which is well within the margin of error. In the polls Hillary Clinton averaged 29.3 percent (30, 29, 31, 30, 28, 28, 29) in 7 pre-New Hampshire polls. She got 39 percent, which is a 10 percent jump from what the polls showed she would get. So a better question would be why Hillary Clinton had a much better performance than the polling showed.

While I don't know the causes of the discrepancy, Schneider is clearly wrong. This is not evidence that there was no racial effect.

His argument is that since Obama got what he polled at, this shows there was no "Bradley effect." But this assumes we know all the undecideds broke for Hillary. That would be counterintuitive. Because of the coincidence of Obama polling at a number, and then getting that number, it is easy to assume these were the same people.

But it is also possible the same number of undecideds broke for Obama as people who said they would vote for an African-American candidate and then did not. So the actual total was the same as the one he polled at.

Now, it may well be that women undecideds overwhelmingly broke for Clinton, but that doesn’t mean that some men and women also told pollsters who called them at their home that they would vote for Obama, and that this number roughly matched the number of men and a few women who broke for Obama.

To be fair, this is not the only argument against a “Bradley effect”. Yglesias makes a slightly different argument:

The pollsters underestimated Clinton's level of support. People who were undecided as of the last round of polling seem to have gone overwhelmingly in her direction.
[also note the relevance of this to Wilder/Bradley effect speculations]

I can’t assess this myself, but it does seem to assume all the people who told pollsters they would vote for Obama did. In other words, it uses the coincidence of the same number to assume no Bradley effect, therefore no undecideds broke for Obama, therefore Hillary got all the undecideds. So it is sort of assuming what it is trying to prove. On the subject of undecides, ABC’s polling director Gary Langer writes:

Some folks are suggesting that "late deciders" made the difference - a common explanation for poor estimates. But the exit poll doesn't support the notion. Remove voters who decided on Tuesday and the New Hampshire exit poll result is Clinton +2 – exactly her actual margin. (Among those who decided "just today" it was Clinton +3.)

Of course, Langer also dismisses the “Bradley effect” as old news:

There have been previous races that misstated support for black candidates in biracial races. But most of those were long ago, and there have been plenty of polls in biracial races that were accurate. (For more on past problems with polls in biracial races, see this blog I wrote for Freakonomics last May.) And there was no overstatement of Obama in Iowa polls.

Well, of course Iowa was a caucus. But it is possible that, as black candidates become less anomalous, the Bradley effect is diminishing. Perhaps this would be true differentially – and less true in New Hampshire?  

The best argument against Bradley I’ve seen is from dloewe right here two days ago:

In a situation like last night in New Hampshire, voters had no reason to lie to pollsters. If someone wasn't willing to vote for Barack Obama because of his race, they could have said they were voting for Hillary. There would be no need to hide, no need to lie.

Even though I think there is a difference between running against Republican George Deukmejian (as Tom Bradley did in California) and Hillary Clinton, I’m not sure this completely explains it away. Here is one of the “Bradley effect” examples from Wikipedia:

In the 1988 Democratic presidential primary in Wisconsin, pre-election polls pegged black candidate Jesse Jackson — at the time, a legitimate challenger to white candidate and frontrunner Michael Dukakis — as likely to receive approximately one-third of the white vote. Ultimately, however, Jackson carried only about one quarter of that vote, with the discrepancy in the heavily white state contributing to a large margin of victory for Dukakis over the second-place Jackson.

So what I’m saying is yes, I accept many of the arguments for the last-minute surge by Clinton. But I have yet to see a convincing argument that race was not part of the reason for the discrepancy between Obama’s polling margin of victory and the actual results. And I guess what I’m really sick of is that idea that there has to be a single explanation of the polling discrepancies. I’ve heard so much of this: tears, dishes, debate, race, profit-taking. This is a complex phenomenon, and we keep getting involved in "my pet theory versus your pet theory" sort of debates.

So I guess I just want to say we should be looking at multiple factors and not ruling this one out on the basis of arguments like Schneider's if we want to read the polling data correctly in the future.

Future primaries will tell, I suppose. One good way to get a better handle on this might be to look at the polling on downticket races and compare them to the polling for the presidential primary. In other words, in those states where there are candidates of color elsewhere on the ticket, you would expect a similar drop in support between polling and the actual election in both presidential and downticket races.

Tags: Barack Obama, primaries, Hillary Clinton, Bradley effect (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 12 comments

  •  Think its still worth thinking about. . . (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    hairspray

    Because if we're seeing this at all in the primaries, it has even more dire implications for the general.

    "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

    by MarkC on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:02:15 AM PDT

    •  Some radio commentator (?) said that NH (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MarkC

      has a recent history at least, of having women in politics. Jean Shaheen, who was their last governor, and is running for senator is very popular.  There are a number of other prominent women in high profile jobs in NH leading one to conclude that women get more consideration there than in a state like Iowa.  Iowa hasn't had a woman governor or other high profile women, so the roles of females in higher offices are less obvious.

      Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

      by hairspray on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:12:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting diary. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MarkC, hairspray

    The only question I would have is, how can you separate race from who Obama is?  Or gender from who Hillary is?  Or, say, "pretty-haired frat boy" from who Edwards is?  In each case the label is partly accurate, and partly reductionist.  Obama is black, but not only black.  Hillary is not just a woman.  Edwards is more than a pretty-haired frat boy.

    In other words, if I say I dislike Obama, does that make me a racist?  If I say I dislike Clinton, does that make me a sexist?

    How can this question ever be settled or measured?   If a voter is against Obama secretly in his heart because Obama is black and the voter is a racist, how is that MEASURABLY different from being against him because the voter doesn't think he is prepared to be President?

    You can't measure what is in peoples' hearts.  Which is why I suspect this argument is right but impossible to prove.

    When I grew up in Alabama you could never find a white person who admitted to voting for George Wallace, and yet he was re-elected, time after time.

    •  Good point (0+ / 0-)

      In the end it is impossible to prove. But your point gets to the question of whether race is sui generis in some way. In terms of laws, we often do treat it that way.

      I myself think that perceptions of class are actually often a more important divide for things like elections, or that they work in tandem with race.

      New Hampshire voters have elected women executives before, but for most I'm guessing this is the first time they've been faced with the possibility of voting for a black one. So if there is any truth to this "effect" you might expect it to come into play here? Of course, some people think this "effect" doesn't exist -- follow the link to Gary Langer to see his argument.

      "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

      by MarkC on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:09:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I do think the effect exists. (0+ / 0-)

        But because it's unmeasurable, there's nothing to be done about it.  Obama must campaign without relying on race as a crutch, and he's done an admirable job of that so far.  Ditto HRC.  

  •  I think we underestimate the effect Bill Clinton (0+ / 0-)

    the man is beloved by a large majority of Democrats

    "There is nothing wrong with America can't be cured by what is right with America" -Bill Clinton

    by SensibleDemocrat on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:15:06 AM PDT

  •  Andrew Kohut in the NYT (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MarkC

    here argues that the problem lies at the intersection of race and class.

    I think there is no way to tell whether he's right without a very thorough analysis, though.  (He does say the undecided did not go so hard for Hillary to explain the huge swing.)

  •  What I'm finding a hard time understanding (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MarkC

    is why everyone seems so ready to dismiss the Bradley Effect and willingly accept the other theories. People  believe that its more likely that undecided women watched Hillary Clinton get choked up and virtually all went out and voted for her (enough to cause a 10 point shift in 24 hours)? Or that something happened during the debate to cause a 10 point shift ...never mind the fact that no analyst immediately after seemed to believe anything that incredibly earth-shattering occurred during the debate. It's hard to look at the numbers (pre-election and exit polling) without really believing some people told the pollsters one thing and yet voted another.

    •  It's pretty simple why racial slippage isn't (0+ / 0-)

      compelling--the numbers were nailed other than for Hillary.  

      A story breaking right before a primary with a lot of undecideds might well lead to significant movement towards one candidate.  It's the simpler answer given that neither Obama or Edwards had any significantly different numbers from the last poll.  That's not a coincidence.

    •  That's exactly my point (0+ / 0-)

      in this diary, r.s. The counterarguments are not compelling.

      That Obama's numbers were right and Clinton's weren't is simply not proof that all undecideds went to Clinton.

      "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

      by MarkC on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 12:05:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Simplest Answer is (0+ / 0-)

    that there was no racial slippage.

    The assumption that it occurred is not founded. We are talking about a Northern State in a Democratic Primary where there should be very little racial slippage.  

    The polls not only got Obama right, they also got Edwards right--so the simplest answer is that with the press coverage, the undecideds did gravitate towards Hillary.

    The Pollster averages for Obama and Edwards were right on target. If there was racial slippage where people liked the message, but were uncomfortable with the messenger some of that would have gone to Edwards. It didn't.  

    •  simplest = best? (0+ / 0-)

      But this implies that all the undecideds broke for Clinton.

      To me, it makes more sense that the frontrunners would have both gotten some of the undecided vote (and pulled from the other candidates). Perhaps less simple, but it makes more sense.

      And that leaves us with an actual decline from the polling to the election for Obama.

      After all, a flat tax is simpler than a redistributive one -- but I'll take the complexity there.

      "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

      by MarkC on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 12:27:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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