Hillary hatred: A snap, apologies, and hiatus

I have been an active member of this site for four years or so, and in that time, I've always been able to remain civil, promote discussion, ask controversial questions without offending, use my TU status for good instead of evil, and make (or at least attempt to make) a daily substantive contribution to the community.

Last night, after perhaps too many glasses of wine and waaaay too much anger building inside me as I was reading another 100 or so articles on Hillary Clinton, something rubbed me the wrong way in an upthread posting, and I snapped.

I'm not sure how or why Hillary Clinton is able to arouse such intense emotion in some people (on both the left and the right).  But there's some real hatred there which, even as someone who can write detailed, well-sourced essays about the 18 specific reasons I don't support her for President, seems to be almost visceral, not logical.  

I do believe that Clinton would make a very bad President, but that alone doesn't explain the hate.  I think Giuliani and Huckabee and Grandpa Fred would make bad Presidents, too, but I don't hate them.  I just disagree with them.  Why is Hillary different?  Yes, I am passionately opposed to some of the recent changes to our Democracy, and yes, I believe that Hillary Clinton would be the one candidate (on either side) who would further our slide into a dynastic corporate oligarchy.  But even that doesn't justify the intense anger I feel lately when I hear her speak.  

There's a great line from War of the Roses from Kathleen Turner, trying to explain to her husband why she inexplicably wants a divorce:

Because when I watch you eat, when I see you asleep, when I even look at you lately... I just want to smash your face in.

The more I see Senator Clinton on TV, the more I feel like Elvis watching Robert Goulet.  There's a point in which anger builds up to a kind of blissful irrationality, in which a profanity-drenched over-the-top tirade (such as my post last night) can feel cathartic.  As someone who rarely uses profanity, never raises their voice, has never hit or been hit by anyone, and who is universally known as a nice, mind-mannered individual, the only outlet I have to release strong emotions is through words (well, or music, but at 5:00am last night, I couldn't exactly hop on my drumset, now could I.)  

Anyway, it's time to take a deep breath, admit that politics makes me just too angry to be a healthy obsession, and take some time off (from not only Kos, but other political sites as well.)  

Passion is a good thing, and I believe what we're fighting for is a good cause.  But I know I'm not the only one here who sometimes lets passion flip an internal switch that shouldn't be switched.  I know I'm not the only one here who has "lost it" when talking about Bush, or the Iraq War, or maybe Hillary.  It's that shaking, arrogant, "why can't other people see the truth as I see it!!" mentality that leads to the complete disrespect and dismissal of not only opposing viewpoints, but even the people who share those viewpoints themselves.  

This website has been really good to me.  I've met great people over the years, read some wonderful articles, and had hundreds of stimulating and eye-opening debates.  But it also is occupying hours --- many hours --- of every single day of my life this primary season.  As a business owner, I can't afford to read "just one more article" which I know is going to get me riled up, and then having to post "just one more comment", etc.  Time lost is money lost, after all.  So I suppose it's best I take a break, anyway.  Can't help the Michigan economy if I go out of business.  

If you were one of the handful of people who read my comically hyperbolic anti-Hillary tirade, I very humbly and sincerely apologize.  (I suppose calling attention to it in this diary will mean more people will read it, so apologies in advance to you, too -- although really, I'd kinda rather you didn't go out of your way to find it.)  

I promise I'm not a bad person, nor intolerant, nor sexist, nor a Republican.  I'm just someone who needs a weeee bit of a break from all this political stuff right now.  I think if I separate myself from the source of the anger, maybe I'll be able to uncover why on earth I can have an irrational hatred for someone I've never even met.  If anyone else is in my boat (and from reading some of the more incendiary anti-Hillary diaries, I know I'm not alone here), I hope you'll take a moment to ponder this question yourself.

Politics is simultaneously the most important thing in the world, and also, well, just "politics."  I think we all can use a "time out" on occasion.  And mine is way overdue.

Thanks everyone, and have a very pleasant, calm, rational, reasoned, and respectful primary season.  I'm going to find some chamomile tea.

•  See you after November! (maybe) n/t

  by cartwrightdale on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:11:23 PM PDT

  •  traditional pootie pic

    

    by DMiller on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:13:54 PM PDT

    •  Okay

      I just went through all 25 pages of your pootie pics, and laughed out loud more than I have in days, and now feel much, much better.

      If and when I ever return to this site, I will definitely remind myself to go through those pictures if I'm ever feeling hateful.

      by cartwrightdale on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 03:29:26 PM PDT

  •  well, i hope we'll see you

    after the primaries, not matter who wins. hopefully, we can all get behind whomever that turns out to be, so we can focus on the real battle.

    by Turkana on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:29:03 PM PDT

  •  Why not come back in the spring.? The primaries

    will be over and , hopefully, it will have calmed down here. I have been avoiding the candidate mud fest diaries so I'm not familiar with what happened but I appreciate this diary and your apology. Thanks and please do return.  Recommended.

    by Bouwerie Boy on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:44:51 PM PDT

    •  It won't have calmed down because too many

      pundits have a vested interest in stoking the fire.

      None of this is accidental. Folks don't just 'end-up' hating anyone.

      This is part of a media-driven effort to remove the Dem party from selecting a candidate.

      Edwards has been completely frozen out of the debates, leaving HRC, the divisive past, and Obama, the united future.

      That narrative will change, however, completely.

      That's when all the talking heads turn on Obama. It isn't clear whether Obama will win.

      But given a choice between a junior one-term Senator and a combat vet like McCain, or a capitalist moderate like Romney. This race is far from over.

      Conflict sells.

      There will be more, not less.

      by kidneystones on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:54:09 PM PDT

      •  Well, perhaps I'm a bit too optimistic

        It calmed down here after the ugly diaries in 2004 and I really believe it will calm down again. I have personally not seen evidence of any organized efforts by the major campaigns here, Frankly, most of these postings hurt their favored candidate rather than help. I do believe that groups of members have organized on behalf of their candidates. I've even been pitched by some them.

        by Bouwerie Boy on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 01:04:31 PM PDT

        •  Love the Diderot.

          by Bartimaeus Blue on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 01:05:34 PM PDT

•  A tip....

  For a great "War of the Roses" line.

  Kathleen Turner delivered that one just perfectly.

  by Morgan Sandlin on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:14:16 PM PDT

•  Hmm. Classy apology.

  I'm not much of a Hillary hater myself, but I've definitely felt that way about other politicians before. Sounds like its definitely time for a break, though!  Enjoy your time off and come back rejuvenated.

  by brklyngrl on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:16:32 PM PDT

  •  Did you read the comment

    he's talking about?

    I cannot fathom feeling that way about one of our candidates, much less posting such a comment.  IMHO he should have been banned.

    by DMiller on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:02:32 PM PDT

    •  To be honest

      I assumed I had been.  I was a little shocked to have been able to log in today.  

      by cartwrightdale on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:08:20 PM PDT

      •  This whole situation

        is so completely tragic.  You object to racism by using vile misogyny.

        It's what is tearing this site and the party apart.

        Redstate and the republicans are laughing their asses off while we self destruct.

        by DMiller on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:16:38 PM PDT

        •  I agree

          That's why deciding to leave is the right response.  If you can't make things better, at least stop making them worse.

          by cartwrightdale on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:22:08 PM PDT

    •  "IMHO he should have been banned"

      which is a key reason why you don't run this site, and why so many of us are glad about that.

      censorship is for assholes.

      by RabidNation on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:22:36 PM PDT

      •  Not the first

        time you've called me a nasty name.  Probably won't be the last.  Interestingly enough, you're the only one who has.

        I won't retaliate.  Just not worth it.

        by DMiller on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:26:15 PM PDT

        •  I'm NOT calling you a nasty name.

          I'm saying that censorship is the practice of assholes.

          I do not believe you to be one, and I'm not calling you one. But as I have stated ad infinitum on this site over the course of the last four years, I think that censorship is disgraceful and I oppose it uniformly. And anybody who advocates it that I run across is going to get pretty much the same negative response from me, regardless of who they are.

          by RabidNation on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:35:46 PM PDT

      •  Where is the comment?

        I couldn't find it.  

        by xanthe on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 03:31:33 PM PDT

        •  Ironically, I can't see it either

          Since the comment was troll-rated into oblivion, taking away my Trusted User status, and therefore preventing even me from reading it again.  Which is probably for the best.  :)

          by cartwrightdale on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 03:36:26 PM PDT

          •  Never mind I found it on

            the Hidden Comment section.  

            Well, it may have been the liquor and perhaps you are having a problem with a certain woman or women - but it's embarrassing enough for you - so I won't pile on.  

            Yes - you need to get away for awhile. I feel I need to get away myself sometimes.  Seriously, stay away for a few weeks - you'll feel better.  

            by xanthe on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 03:40:41 PM PDT

      •  I choose to think that you said this in ignorance

        of the underlying comment. If you didn't and don't understand how it was a breach of the values of this political community, you should not be here.

        by Bartimaeus Blue on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 03:47:21 PM PDT

    •  Yes I did.

      Before I posted that comment (which is why I said it was definitely time for a break). And it is dreadful. Horrendous.

      However, I am trying to come to terms with the fact that DailyKos has a fairly lenient banning policy. Not my decision, so in my view there's little to do but observe whether it is implemented consistently. Since I've been paying attention it seems to me that it has been. In every case I've noted people have been warned rather than banned - so I think he should be/have been warned. Fortunately he's already decided to take a break and (I hope) reflect on why he made that comment.

      by brklyngrl on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:33:28 PM PDT

  •  brklyngrl

    Are you sure you want to call this person classy after the sickening language he used?

    by gloryous1 on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:19:01 PM PDT

    •  I called the apology classy. n/t

      by brklyngrl on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:26:16 PM PDT

      •  Fair enough. And giving it further thought

        I agree with you.  It could not have been easy to apologize.

        by gloryous1 on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:36:21 PM PDT

•  Share some of your sentiments...

  In fact if interested read my last two diaries which sort of express the same, what's the word, need to remove myself from this political discussion.

  Life is difficult for me in many ways, especially living in California where the state government is especially pathetic.  Dailykos has actually sharpened my understanding of politics, but this acuity of vision just makes what I see more painful.

  I am involved in the lowest level of government, an HOA, somewhat involved in my city politics, Encinitas, and of course follow the federal issues closely.  

  Sadly, what I see is a failure of democracy itself. It has become a spectacle, a type of American Idol, where the actual issues are no longer understood, much less the gravamen of determination of one's support for a candidate.

  It has become a show, and it is a sad show.  This site, Dailykos, with all of its limitations, is as good as it gets.

  There are decent number of perceptive, exceptional people who read and write here.  But at any given day, for any given diary, they may not be reading. And it becomes an empty cry for connection.

  These are difficult times in many way.  Politics, Government, societies trying to work things out, is my core interest.  Right now, it is difficult to find this as the real subject of discourse.

  I stick around because it's the best I can find.
  ------

  As far as HRC.  I can understand how people hate her, but I don't.  In fact, I find most of the other candidates less genuine.

  Because I am active, sort of, in local politics, I have a deeper understanding why she has compromized, even going as far as supporting the Iraqi War Resolution.

  We all come into a political setting in the middle of the show, and try to survive to be a player.  It is the way the game is played.  Heroes, those with the most integrity, often don't survive.  See Weiker from Connecticut or Bill Bradley as good examples.

  So, maybe those tears swelling up when some one asked her why she went through this pain were genuine.  I happen to think so.  And part of the pain is the need to compromise, to dance with the devil, so you can realize your vision.

  Diarist, stick around.  We need you and others like you.

  by arodb on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:26:53 PM PDT

•  Thank you.

  Apology accepted.  You are a classy, gracious person...

  by jarhead5536 on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:31:33 PM PDT

•  Great diary, and as for me

  also an old, old-timer here, I say without drama that I'm just about done with the place, at least temporarily.

  I know, baby and bathwater and all that, but the level of hatred against Hillary Clinton here exactly mimics the level of hatred coming from the right wing, and in some cases exceeds it. And I am out of patience.

  What's so disappointing to me is to see this site become the vector for a nasty split on the left that can only lead to a Republican victory. I'm certainly not suggesting that Hillary should be "coronated," as the old saw goes around here, but just saying that if you're going to differ with a candidate, make it substantial and not personal.

  As for the explanation for the obsessive Hillary hate, I will go to my grave 100 percent sure that it can be chalked up to two things:

  1. pure misogyny; and

  2. internalized propaganda from years of exposure to right-leaning mainstream media.

  by Jim J on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:32:34 PM PDT

  •  Expresses my sentiments-thanks!

    What's so disappointing to me is to see this site become the vector for a nasty split on the left that can only lead to a Republican victory. I'm certainly not suggesting that Hillary should be "coronated," as the old saw goes around here, but just saying that if you're going to differ with a candidate, make it substantial and not personal.

    As for the explanation for the obsessive Hillary hate, I will go to my grave 100 percent sure that it can be chalked up to two things:

    pure misogyny; and
    internalized propaganda from years of exposure to right-leaning mainstream media.

    by astoundedstill on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:49:27 PM PDT

  •  Jim J

    Please please please don't throw it over. I am getting my concerned by the day that this site will lose those old voices and be taken over by the fly swatters that haunt the diaries.

    Some days it seems like I search forever just for something to read and get involved in. I think that vetting our candidates is important, but the stink that's going around is unhealthy.

    I don't understand the source of the hatred that I keep seeing and I'm tired of posting "can't we all get along". I'm getting pretty sure we can't as long as people keep posting things that only belong on RedState.

    We can express our opinions without full force monkey shit flings, people. Stop it. Look what you're doing.

    BTW, I think you're right on your two points. It's the only explanation I can come to as well.

    by high uintas on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 01:06:04 PM PDT

•  Your rant that you are apologizing for,

  unfortunately showed what is inside you when you lose your facade.  You can't put the genie back in the bottle.  Very revealing.  

  by hopscotch1997 on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:33:25 PM PDT

  •  Ya know

    I really, sincerely, deeply hope that that isn't true.  

    by cartwrightdale on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:39:23 PM PDT

    •  So do I - else why would

      anyone need to engage in self-reflection, or even TRY to change?

      by CeeusBeeus on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:45:35 PM PDT

    •  We all make mistakes...

      and yes, people grow from mistakes. Good luck.

      by kck on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:49:53 PM PDT

    •  I hope it isn't, either.

      Everybody does things that they regret.

      That said, sometimes our actions can be so vile, so repulsive that an apology just isn't enough. I still have trouble understanding how Harvey Milk is still at this site. After reading your comment in hidden comments, as I woman and as a human being, all I can say is that the idea of a break is a good start.

      Some self reflection on why you felt no remorse in writing that vile word, again and again and again, would probably also serve you well.

      Best of luck. And I do mean that.

      by Pager on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 01:42:01 PM PDT

      •  Thank you

        I do appreciate you finding the aforementioned comment.  Probably only 2-3 people would have ever read it, had I not called attention to it.  But that would be pretty cowardly and dishonest of me to pretend I had nothing to apologize for.  If a tree falls in the forest, I know it made a sound if I'm the one with the chainsaw.

        I tried to explain a little downthread as to the reason for the specific term used.  It was retaliatory in a oneupsmanship way, in a juvenile "oh yeah well your momma's so fat that..." way.  As a man, there exists no equivalent to a sexist term that could deeply hurt me, which is why I have no place in using a sexist term that could deeply hurt someone else.  I can't understand, by definition, any more than a white man could understand how the n-word feels ("cracker" ain't equivalent), which is why he doesn't get to say it.

        by cartwrightdale on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 01:52:18 PM PDT

        •  I found your explanation down thread

          to be quite honest and I really do mean it when I say I wish you the best and hope to see you back here.

          by Pager on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 01:54:11 PM PDT

•  apology appreciated

  but there was nothing comical about what you said. I hope you can figure out why you're so angry. Unsolicited advice here but when I'm feeling a lot of hate and anger at something in the larger world, the actual source is often something a lot more specific to my own life and circumstances.

  by lunacat on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:36:48 PM PDT

•  Good diary

  and good on you for taking a break when you need to. I understand that the anger can boil over sometimes.

  At the same time, as a piece of unsolicited advice, I suggest you reflect on what it is that made you explode into some pretty sexist language, rather than into some other sort of explosion. I'm not calling you sexist or whatever, but I do think that it's important to understand that people's expressions when they do lose it are still very, very important -- things you grab for at your least controlled moments are quite important. I've had those moments myself, believe me, but it's a good thing on which to reflect.

  by Spit on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:55:12 PM PDT

•  Thank you for at least admitting

  that it is hatred. I hope that you can eventually understand it, for your own sake at least.

  by JamieG from Md on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:55:25 PM PDT

•  My husband feels the same way as you re: Hillary

  He just cannot stand her. It is a visceral reaction, one, he cannot explain. He was a former Republican who became a Democrat on hand of GWB.
  He voted for John Kerry in 2004, but he says he will not vote for Hillary, even though he now hates the Republicans.  We have to be aware of Hillary Hatred as much as we have to be aware of racism out there regarding Barack Obama.  Both problems are magnified in the South. Anyway, have a nice break. My breaks usually don't last as long as I think they are going to. Maybe yours won't either.

  by linnie on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:55:32 PM PDT

•  I'm not sure an apology cuts it.

  Your rant was as far over the line as anything I've seen here, and I don't care much for your explanation.  

  But I hope that the time off is good for you and that you confront whatever is eating your soul.

   

  by Bartimaeus Blue on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:56:02 PM PDT

  •  Your comment was not "comically hyperbolic".

    It was revolting.  

    by Bartimaeus Blue on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:58:26 PM PDT

    •  Apologies, and agreed

      I didn't mean to imply that the rant was "comic" in a humorous way -- more in the sense that it read like a dark parody of over-the-top hatred, which was partially the point.  It was a lashing as offensive as possible, like the letter you'd write a hated boss but never send.  

      I think hatred and pain go a long way in affecting our desire to push back.  I grew up in a black neighborhood (half of my family is African American) and have spent a very big chunk of my adult life fighting for a colorblind society.  This recent coordinated campaign to diminish Obama based on his race is something that makes bolts of red lightning visually flash in my eyes.  I don't want my son, if he ever runs for office, or even if he doesn't, to face that kind of not-too-subtle "diminishing" that Obama is facing now.  

      This is not, at all, to excuse my language, or the content.  It wasn't "sexist" as much as "disproportionately offensive" -- in that, if you're going to go out of your way to play the race card in subtle, country-club approved ways ("uppity", "spade work", "kid", "boy", "articulate", etc.) then fine, I'll use the most offensively sexist word I can think of over and over again, to "even the score".

      Again, please don't read this as an attempt to excuse the inexcusable.  I just think it's important to know the circumstances behind an evil action, not just the action itself.  Sometimes anger overwhelms even the best of us, and it's a very sad thing.  Hillary Clinton has never personally hurt me, but I think in her I see a great many people who have hurt me and my family, and I've mixed her up in my mind with everyone from Nurse Ratched to the woman who tried to have us kicked out of an apartment complex to a hundred other people, real and imagined, that I've experienced.  It's unfair to Hillary, and unfair to me as well.  

      Hope this helps explain things a little bit, and I am sincere in my desire to step back and find out why and how I can be capable of such irrational anger.  Maybe that's why I got out of politics to begin with -- it's dangerous to have a job you care that much about.

      by cartwrightdale on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 01:30:45 PM PDT

      •  Even before finding

        your comment it I didn't think you were saying there was anything funny about it when you said "comically hyperbolic".

        Sometimes things build up and we just can't take it and things come out.

        Your problem wasn't feeling whatever you felt.
        It wasn't writing what you wrote.
        It was hitting Post

        If you had written it angrily on a bit of paper it would probably have just been cathartic. When you looked at it later you'd probably be embarrassed at how overboard you went and still looked inside yourself to see why it was triggered and still realize you needed to step back and on and on.

        In a real way it is better to let out than to keep in because then it loses it's power over you.

        I use to encourage my kids to write when they were troubled by something (whether that troubled feeling was anger or sadness or whatever). To not be careful what they say, just let it all out. To do it in the form of a letter either to themselves or to another person and didn't have to watch their language. In other words "comically hyperbolic" was just fine. They could share it with me later or not.

        It always helped. It just does. The  hyperbolic was not the real them, it was well, like the puss from a lanced wound inside getting out and then the healing could begin.

        It doesn't mean you come to like someone you feel hatred for, likely you just come to dislike them at best but it loses it's power and energy.

        Not to sound patronizing but when I found and read your post (sorry) I thought of those letters they'd write, it felt the same even though all the words were different. I imagined saying like I would to one of the kids if they shared it "Wow, you really felt mad at her..." and our conversation would go from there.

        So I didn't feel "Wow, there is really something wrong with you" and that is why I needed to write this long response.

        My further general advice (I mean to them and myself, not to you) would be you let it our on paper but never send a letter written in anger. Wait and if you are still angry the next day write again and this time find a way to talk about the problem in away that was communication, not an attack. And so on...

        So again I would guess your real problem was that you hit post. Otherwise that last paragraph doesn't much apply because there is not much communication going on here these days, a lot of attacks like yours was but with less profanity.

        You might come out ahead of them because your language was part of what made you know you went way overboard.

        I feel like stepping away for a while myself. I miss communication.

        See you later.

        by joynow on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:31:05 PM PDT

•  Same thing about hating Obama

  according to a diary I saw yesterday.  Diarist "hates" Obama because he's "fake".  The remainder of the diary consisted of an explanation of how he'd searched his soul, and this was all he found.

  Is simple, unreasoning hatred of a Democratic candidate sufficient reason to post a diary?  I don't think so.  It adds nothing to the discussion, usually reflects poorly on the site itself, and continues to roil the rancor.

  Really, all the candidate-haters need to go someplace else.  We're here for information, discussion and electing progressive Democrats.  Hatred promotes none of these, and pushes them aside.

  Anyone who can't control their own typing really needs to get a grip or move on.  But you sound like a fundamentally nice person who gets carried away sometimes.  It's never too late to learn to review what you've written, and ask if your comments help or hurt.  It's that simple.

  by Bob Love on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 01:31:15 PM PDT

•  good diary and good apology

  I admit I don't understand the visceral reaction to Clinton around here (although I can understand it at free republic). I don't understand the depths of the reaction to Sen. Clinton that people, ostensibly Democrats, have to a person who has been a good, not perfect, Democratic senator. I don't understand the misogyny exhibited by some tradmedia and cablenet pundits and some otherwise reasonable people around here (not saying you exhibited that, just that I don't understand it from Democrats).

  I'm not a Clinton supporter, but I'm more amenable to her than I am to the voice of faux unity I hear from Sen. Obama. At least she knows who the adversary is. At times, I'm not sure Sen. Obama does. That concerns me.

  Perhaps it's wise that you take a break.  I know it would be wise for crissy matthews to take a long long vacation from his network position, since he's even further down the road of hatred than you've exhibited, which should concern anyone. No one should go in that direction.

  by dougymi on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 01:37:32 PM PDT

•  Anto Hillary or Anti Obama voters will cost us 08

  election.  

  by drmah on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:13:52 PM PDT

•  It is called Misogyny

  and it is really - really sad.

  by sara seattle on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:14:00 PM PDT

•  Noone I know can say exactly why they Hate the

  Clintons so much when I ask them why.  It's the strangest thing.  

  by Rudy07 on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:14:04 PM PDT

  •  Is it usually "the Clintons," or is it Hillary

    specifically?

    The right have been quite adept in generating hatred against both of them, but Bill-hatred seems to be more contained; even post-impeachment, he managed to sustain high approval ratiings, while H. Clinton has had consistent negatives nation-wide, which is inexplicable for someone who hasn't, like done so much bad stuff:  certainly some stinker votes as a Senator, but those primarily enrage a small group of news-savvy progressives. Nothing like the list of disasters that Bush has assembled over the last seven years. As much as one might be angry about her votes on the war in Iraq, particularly the A.U.F., nothing justifies her negatives approaching Bushian levels.

    I used to think that this dislike -- among Democrats at least -- had to do with her carefulness, her perceived centrism and all that stuff, and I thought that people would change their tune if, say, Barbara Boxer threw her hat into the presidential ring.  But how different would it be?  There was a lot of negativity hurled at Pelosi when she initially stepped into the Speaker role (more now that people are angry over Congressional inaction), all of which was out of proportion to what a male Speaker would have provoked.  And that's just the Speakerhood, which isn't followed as avidly as the presidential race. I suspect that even more vitriol would be hurled at a Pelosi or Boxer or Granholm if they, like Clinton, sought to enter the presidential race.

    The more that Clinton is subjected to in the media, the more I'm astonished at how resilient she actually is in the polls, and the more admiration I have for what she's doing. She's still too hawkish for my taste, but I do find myself quasi-rooting for her.

    by Dale on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 03:15:08 PM PDT

•  It's a sense of betrayal

  I've wondered the same, cartwrightdale, both examining other folks vitriol about Hillary and my own visceral anger about her.  Speaking just for myself...I feel betrayed. During the darkest days of this criminal administration, when I needed leaders to stand up for what's right...she was MIA. Where was she when Katrina went down? Did she not realize how dangerous it was to encourage Bush's reckless war mongering? Did she ever post a little memo on Kos or other liberal blogs to show us she was out there working for us? Was she out front protecting the Constitution, railing against sanctioned torture? No.  She was never one of us, and now that she needs progressive support, she pretends that she always was in our corner.  In my heart, I don't believe her, although I have tried. I'm angry because she let me down... over and over again...and I expected so much more.

  by cas2 on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:14:37 PM PDT

•  The ironic thing?

  I read you diary about 1/2 hour ago, and have been wandering around the house since, giving Hillary Hatred further thought.  I had a revelation of my own.

  My feelings regarding a Hillary presidency have been ambivalent at best from day one.  However, as I read the baseless attacks on her character and the unfounded  predictions regarding what a horrific president she would be, I've slowly been moving to her camp.  Inexplicable and surprising to even me.

  I am a long way from voting for her(well, Feb Five, so not that long), but the Chris Matthews' tirades and yours sickening rant is causing me to side with her, as a woman.  

  I support all of the policies she has articulated, think she would be a terrific manager and I want a woman president.  OTOH, I love Obama's message and charisma, and John Edward's fight. But the Hillary Hatred is certainly driving me to her defense.  No question.  

  by gloryous1 on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:17:35 PM PDT

  •  You know

    I've been puzzling myself over why women seemed to leap from Obama to Clinton at the last minute in New Hampshire, wondering if the pundits were right about the tears and "iron my shirt" protester really made that much of a difference.  And I realized it's actually more analogous to, say, the O.J. trial, in which African Americans wanted him freed not necessarily because they thought he was a good guy, but because it would be a "we're all in this together" response to all the times a black man was wrongfully convicted, or a white man was found innocent for killing a black man or woman.  In a perfect world, your feelings of whether O.J. should have been convicted should have nothing to do with race, just as your feelings on Clinton's policies and issues should have nothing to do with her gender.  But I bet if a day before I had to decide if a black man was guilty, the KKK burned crosses on a neighbor's lawn, I bet it would make me more likely to, in a reactionary way, be more inclined to believe in the man's innocence, just as if a day before you were choosing whether to vote for a woman candidate, if you read a sexist, profane, seemingly anti-woman tirade, you might respond by being more amenable to supporting her after all, to "balance things out".  

    by cartwrightdale on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:37:19 PM PDT

    •  Well, it's a little different, maybe

      I doubt I would be sympathizing with her if I truly thought she would be a risky choice just because she is a woman.  Will she set the world on fire like Obama?  No, but she cops to that.  I have watched every debate and just do not see an evil person.

      She has an amazing grasp on policy and facts, and there is no evidence that leads me to believe she would turn into something vile, unpredictable or corrupt if elected.  

      In short, she is no OJ.

      by gloryous1 on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 03:31:30 PM PDT

  •  I feel the same way - and I'm surprised at

    myself.  I never hated her - I just don't like the dynasty aspect.  

    I am in Illinois so Obama doesn't need my vote if he is in - I was neutral until I met his supporters here.  

    And he has the Republican votes too.

    by xanthe on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 03:22:31 PM PDT

•  I too suffer

  from this problem. I've calmed down and try to argue my case rationally with issues but have to watch it or I'll start raving. I figured out that the only other pol who has made me this crazy is Bush. Troll rate away people I'm not equating Hillary to Bush just the feelings she causes me to have.

  I voted for Bill twice even sent him money I didn't really like his policies thought he was sleazy and really ended up pissed at his free market corporate, deregulation etc. but he never truly pissed me off. I try to stay on issues but it's hard in these diaries which just flame away and leave the real issues in the ashes.

  Thanks for posting this. No apology needed but thanks anyway. I hope you come back, after the dust settles. I think I can not stop to post about this primary but will try to leave my hatred or fear out of my comments. If it gets to be too much I will take a break.  

     

  by shaharazade on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:36:27 PM PDT

•  Final Thought

  I want to thank you for talking with me in this very self-indulgent but hopefully discussion-spurring diary.   I feel better now, and appreciate your willingness to discuss anger issues, and sharing your own thoughts/stories.  

  This is a very good community and I hope to return someday.

  As for now, I'm having a friend change my password and not telling me what the new one is, so I'm not tempted to return right away.  Sometimes it takes someone else to hide the last pack of cigarettes.  :)

  Happy Kossacking!

  DC

  by cartwrightdale on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 03:33:38 PM PDT