Daily Kos

Arguing With the Ghost of Eugene Debs

Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 12:13:43 PM PDT

It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don’t want and get it. – Eugene Debs

In my last pre-primary post – when I re-affirmed that I was voting for John Edwards -- I wrote: "I would like to live in an America in which Kucinich is a viable candidate." I knew I would hear about that, and I did. A Kucinich supporter reminded me of all the issues where Kucinich and I agree: single-payer health care, impeachment, leaving Iraq, no torture, civil liberties. "Kucinich is viable if you vote for him," his email said. "Don’t let the media tell you who is viable. They have their own agenda."

Now that New Hampshire is quiet again, I can think more calmly and clearly: Was he right?

The Pragmatic Ladder
Looking back, framing my decision as pragmatic compromise (Edwards) versus idealism (Kucinich) is too simple. Because I had a whole ladder of choices, each of which balanced pragmatism and idealism differently.

At the one extreme is Clinton, who I will happily vote for in November if it comes to that, but would rather not see nominated. I’ve searched my masculine heart for sexism and decided I’d feel the same way if Bill could run for a third term. The Clintons are skillful at managing problems as they come up, but they don’t change the agenda. I want a new national agenda.

Next comes Obama, who (if you believe the polls and pundits) is our best chance to get a nominee other than Clinton. On Tuesday, as the returns rolled in and it was clear how close Obama came to winning, I wondered if I had made a mistake by not compromising enough. But Obama’s inclusive conciliatory campaign rhetoric seems wrong-headed to me. The Republicans don’t compromise with us because they don’t respect us. And maybe they shouldn’t: We haven’t proved that we can take a principled stand and hold it to the bitter end.

Then Edwards, whose combative stance is the one we’re eventually going to have to come to if we’re not going to surrender this country to the super-rich and the theocrats. But his positions represent a compromise: His health plan could eventually lead to a single-payer system, but he doesn’t just take a stand and explain to the voters why single-payer is the way to go. And seriously defending the rule of law means impeaching Bush and sending a bunch of people to jail. Edwards isn’t willing to go there.

Then Kucinich, for the reaons I’ve already given. (And Dodd and Gravel, for different but similar reasons).

But it’s an illusion to imagine that the ladder stops here – that Kucinich represents uncompromising idealism. Because the truly uncompromising thing would have been to write in a vote for myself.

Nobody represents my views as well as I do. Nobody agrees with me 100%. Nobody would do exactly what I would do. There’s nobody I trust as much as I trust myself. In a campaign of ideals, a campaign that takes place entirely within my own head, without reference to polls or pundits or what anybody else thinks -- I win. Me for President.

It’s only when you recognize that last option that the real issue starts to take shape. Compromise isn’t some evil that needs to be banished from our electoral process. Compromise is one of the two great virtues that democracy is based on.

Courage and Compromise
Now let’s get theoretical. In order for a democracy to work, the people need to have two virtues: courage and compromise. Courage means standing up and saying what you believe, even if it’s unpopular or if someone is trying to intimidate you. Think Nelson Mandela. Think Martin Luther King and all the people marching over the Edmund Pettus bridge. As Pete Seeger sang: "I ain’t scared of your jail."

If nobody has that kind of courage, democracy doesn’t last. It doesn’t matter what your constitution or your laws say. Our constitution says that American citizens have a right to due process of law. But when President Bush declared Jose Padilla an enemy combatant and imprisoned him indefinitely, hardly anybody stood up for him. I could have taken a protest sign and tried to see how close to Padilla’s brig I could get before they arrested me, but I didn’t. If we’d all done that, if we’d made them lock us all up, something would have happened. Maybe those words in the Constitution would have meant something again.

But if you want to see the opposite problem, look at Iraq. Iraqis have a lot of courage – some to the point that they’re willing to blow themselves up for their beliefs. In their December, 2005 elections even voting required a certain amount of courage, yet they had a turnout that puts us to shame: 80%. If courage could make a democracy, Iraq really would be the shining model Bush promised.

The problem – and this was predictable from Day 1 – is that the Iraqis can’t put together a consensus to get anything done. Even the "winners" of the Iraqi elections (with 41% and 22% of the vote) were loose coalitions of parties that had to divvy up seats in Parliament until nobody had more than a handful. Those parties themselves seethe with internal distrust, and few voters trust any of them. So nothing happens. If nothing happens for long enough, people will give up on democracy and demand either (1) a dictator like Saddam or (2) a division of the country into units that do have majority coalitions.

Choosing the right leader or putting together the right program – something we keep trying to do for them from the outside – isn’t enough. Programs and leaders don’t make majority coalitions by themselves. People have to make them by compromising wisely.

Making the Trade-off

In order for democracy to work for you, you need to have the courage to stand up for your highest concerns even if no one agrees with you, and you need to compromise enough to find your way into a majority coalition. You usually can’t do both at the same time. So when do you do which?

The rule of thumb is pretty simple, and it works in small groups, in Congress, and in the electorate as a whole: Be courageous and idealistic early in the process and shift gradually towards pragmatism and compromise as the decision approaches.

That corporate-media-with-its-own-agenda my critic was writing about tries to get us to compromise too soon, before we’ve said what we wanted at all. Anything other than what the Powers-That-Be are ready to give us is impossible, and you’d do best to keep your powder dry and not ask. That’s the way it’s always been. American independence was impossible. Abolition of slavery was impossible. Old-age pensions, unemployment insurance, college scholarships – why even talk about such things?

The destructive thing about the cult-of-the-possible is that it’s self-fulfilling. People don’t want to "waste" their energy on impossible dreams, but some things are only impossible because nobody is willing to try them. People don’t speak out because they think they’d be alone, but maybe millions of people are silently having the same ideas. You don’t really know something’s impossible until you try.

But at some point people have tried and you do know – at least for this cycle. By the time I voted, Kucinich had argued hard for his program and I knew that he had gotten no delegates in Iowa. The entrance polls there gauged his support around 1-2%, and the pre-election polls in New Hampshire were similar. He wasn’t going to be elected in 2008 whether I voted for him or not.

The polls were also running against Edwards, but an Edwards victory and ultimate nomination was within the bounds of a reasonable upset. That’s where I decided to put the small weight of my vote.

As the Process Continues

If I had a vote in South Carolina or Nevada, I’m not sure what I’d do. Maybe I’d still hold out for Edwards, but I can also see the argument that it’s time to compromise a little further on Obama. And if Clinton is nominated, it will be time to compromise further yet. Because that’s the only way I can see my concerns making it into a majority coalition.

That, by the way, is why I respect Dennis Kucinich more than Ralph Nader. Kucinich in 2004 raised the liberal agenda in the primaries, argued hard for it, and supported Kerry in November. He was idealistic early in the process and pragmatic late. I expect him to do the same this year.

Nader, on the other hand, treated compromise as a vice. Whenever someone points out that the Nader voters could have made the difference and elected Gore rather than Bush, they raise a lot of sophistic arguments about Nader’s right to run and so on. Of course Nader had a right to run for president. We all have the right to run for president and we all could vote for ourselves. But that would show an Iraqi-like lack of the compromising virtue. It would be stupid.

The Long Run
Of course, you get to decide for yourself what time frame you’re working on, whether you’re playing for 2008 or for 2020 or whenever. A lot of Debs’ radical ideas eventually did make it into a majority coalition – in the New Deal. Maybe Nader’s ideas will too.

But if they do, I don’t think it will happen by slowly growing Kucinich's totals from 1% to 5% to a majority. Or by the Greens growing into a majority party. Instead, I think watered-down progressive ideas will make it into a Democratic administration, and they’ll work. And people will want more of them. I don’t know whether a President Obama or President Clinton can achieve national health insurance at all, let alone single-payer. But I think s/he will be able to get all the children insured. And it will work and people will like it. And then it will grow.

Tags: New Hampshire Primary, pragmatism, idealism (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 14 comments

  •  I'm hoping for an interesting discussion (10+ / 0-)

    One that has more light than heat. I'll try to do my part.

  •  How many times I've made same argument... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shirah

    ...I have said and blogged so many times that if all I was really, really seeking was the candidate who most purely represented my conscience and my progressive agenda, I'd write myself in, and would never go with any "lesser evil" candidate who was not me.

  •  If you compromise too much (0+ / 0-)

    that's all you ever get,'the lesser of two evils'.

    Do you really want that? Isn't that what we've been getting for too long?

    "In a time of universal deceit -- telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

    by mint julep on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 12:43:04 PM PDT

    •  you must have read a different diary (0+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      shirah

      than the thoughtful piece by Pericles up above.

      Pericles, I'd add one corollary to your argument: The time to push/prod/pull Democratic candidates toward better positions is now, and it's one of the main reasons why primaries exist. Once a candidate is selected, it's too late. S/he will be running farther toward the right (the "center", as pundits have it). And good luck getting a president to stake out strong leftist positions that weren't already impressed upon him/her by the party faithful during the campaign. So if we truly demand something of our candidates, we'd better make that demand now. Enough of all this cheerleading (and squabbling). Activists need to use this time to push our candidates hard toward where we want them to be in 2009 and beyond.

      •  I've been around too long (0+ / 0-)

        to share your position. By the time one runs for president they already stuck in their position. Unless you find a candidate that is already 'left' of center you're not going to get it once they are elected.
        You can demand all you want it's just not going to happen,see our speaker of the house etc. They'll tell you what you want to hear and in the end they will do what they want to do because they just don't give a damn!
        Well that's my opinion anyway.

        "In a time of universal deceit -- telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

        by mint julep on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 09:53:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  When people ask these days ... (6+ / 0-)

    ...I have three labels for myself: Popular Front Democrat, radical democrat (a la W.E.B. DuBois), and pragmatic idealist. I see that you, too, are a pragmatic idealist, Pericles. And I think you've done the best job I've seen of elaborating on a matter that affects a great many of us who find ourselves more in agreement with Dennis Kucinich on the issues than with any other candidate while knowing that he has no chance of getting the nomination, much less elected.

    Thanks. Wish you were here more often.

    I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

    by Meteor Blades on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 12:43:48 PM PDT

  •  From what I've seen Obama is not conciliatory and (0+ / 0-)

    not triangulating. His strategy is to identify something that should be done and then get others on board by getting them to see that yes, they too agree that it needs to get done. I will mention his getting the Illinois bill on videotaping interrogations and his Senate bill on lobbyists as just two examples but he has an extremely liberal and progressive record.

  •  You had me until the last bit. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DavidW in SF, shirah, planetclaire4

    You posted:

    I think watered-down progressive ideas will make it into a Democratic administration, and they’ll work. And people will want more of them.

    Again, it doesn't work that way.  As you pointed out, the GOP doesn't compromise because it sees no reason to.  The far right knows it can get everything it wants simply by getting us to cave in on everything we want.  If we keep settling for less going in, we'll never get more.  Here's what we can and should be doing to win:

    If you consider yourself progressive, if Kucinich best represents your own views, then vote for him.  No, it won't get him the nomination.  But it will send a message to the eventual nominee that we demand, not just some empty promise of change, but a whole new system.  Consider how Franklin Delano Roosevelt came to power.  The Great Depression.  Virtually unrestricted capitalism had ruined the nation, caused an economic collapse that not only dragged us down but most of the "developed" world with it.  The times demanded a whole new system, rather than some half-hearted and incomplete "reform" of the old.  FDR came to the presidency determined to do something about it, and he sure as hell didn't go with what conventional "wisdom" dictated at the time (which was, namely, the same BS we're hearing now).

    Compromise does not mean settling for half a loaf when you want the whole thing and know you can get it.  Compromise means starting out from your position, and making the other side come to the table ready and willing to meet you at least half way.  Yes, they'll try to get you to waffle under, give up everything, but you needn't do that when you know damned well that you can get something much closer to what you want.  By the time negotiations are done, you'll end up with something no one is completely happy with, but that everybody can live with.  THAT'S compromise.  Voting against your own political beliefs, on the notion that it is impossible from the start to elect the candidate you want, contradicts your whole entry's point.  And that, I think, is sad.

    Look, I realize where you're coming from.  You like Kucinich, but think Edwards has a better chance of delivering.  I respect and admire that, and if that's the logic governing your decision then you're all right.  But if you're voting for Edwards simply because you think you need to compromise, then you've missed the point.  Kucinich's campaign isn't about winning, not in 2004 or this year.  It's about sending a message to the party leaders that the Progressive base demands certain things from its eventual nominee, and that nominee had better get with the program by embracing the party's stated ideals -- in practice as well as in rhetoric.

    That's it.  That's why it's important to vote your beliefs.  Again, if Edwards is truly your guy then by all means vote for him.  But if you prefer Kucinich over him, then vote for Kucinich and send that message.  The DLC will never be brought to heel as long as it knows the base won't challenge it by voting for truly progressive candidates.

    •  The problem is that Edwards, who I suspect ... (4+ / 0-)

      ...a large number of Kucinich voters think is the next-best candidate, still has a chance to win. A slim chance, it is true. So, by voting to send a message instead of to actually select a potential Nominee, those who believe in truly progressive ideals shoot themselves in the foot by not voting their second choice and giving Obama and Clinton some competition.

      Now, if after Feb 5 (or sooner), it becomes clear that Edwards can't win, a vote for Kucinich-the-message-bearer makes more sense.

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 01:28:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Tipped and recc'ed (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, shirah, planetclaire4

    Wish this would diary and others like this would get more attention, instead of the insane Obama-Clinton-Edwards flame wars going on in the Rec List and Recent Diaries at the moment.

    This quote:

    The destructive thing about the cult-of-the-possible is that it’s self-fulfilling. People don’t want to "waste" their energy on impossible dreams, but some things are only impossible because nobody is willing to try them. People don’t speak out because they think they’d be alone, but maybe millions of people are silently having the same ideas. You don’t really know something’s impossible until you try.

    ... is something we should be discussing a lot more here in Daily Kos.

    Although I am an Edwards supporter, I am less in love with any particular candidate than I am with whatever mechanisms we can put in place to change "the best government money can buy."

    Everyone is hung up on arguing which candidate is The Annointed One - meh. Got news for you - they are ALL flawed. We need to be building mechanisms that lessen the "representative" in our democracy and inject more "direct" into the process. The system is broken.

    "Respect for the rights of others is peace." Benito Juarez

    by Blue Boy Red State on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 01:15:41 PM PDT

  •  thank you for the thoughtful diary (0+ / 0-)

    I struggle with the same issues and have essentially the same views about the candidates. I have had the opportunity to meet with Edwards in a small gathering and for an extended period. That contact and his focus on economic and social justice are what this country needs.

    I just hope he can hang in there.

    One attractive possibility seems be to an Obama-Edwards ticket (or better the reverse). Sixteen hears of these two would be a wonderful respite for our country from the way it's been managed for decades.

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