Daily Kos

Obama in 2008: More Like 1912 Than 1932

Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 10:13:28 PM PDT

[Cross-posted from ProgressiveHistorians.]

Daily Kos has recently been abuzz with speculation that the coming Presidential election will play out similarly to that of 1932 -- a dramatic realignment election that puts Dems on top for a generation.  DHinMI advanced this argument in a very good three-part series last month.  Today, New Deal democrat provides more evidence of this phenomenon by pointing out that economic conditions were similar in some ways then to how they are now.

It's an interesting, if optimistic, argument, but I disagree with one of its underlying assumptions -- particularly if Barack Obama becomes the Democratic nominee.  In that eventuality, I think Woodrow Wilson's campaign in 1912, rather than Franklin Roosevelt's in 1932, is more likely to serve as a useful model for the 2008 election.

* * * * * * * * * *

I should state at the outset that my record of historical model-choosing for this election is decidedly mixed.  While I correctly foresaw as early as November that the lack of a Thomas Dewey-1948-like bedrock conservative in the race would result in a Republican field filled with subpar candidates, ripe for the picking by an ultraconservative politician, I incorrectly pegged Sam Brownback instead of Mike Huckabee for that role.  Then, I compounded my error by suggesting that Fred Thompson would fill the Dewey role in the Republican field.  On the plus side, I did use the model of the 1960 election to correctly predict that Al Gore would not run for President.  So, I guess what I'm getting at is that you should take my attempt here with a grain of salt.

Still, I'm going to venture an argument that with Obama as the Democratic nominee, 1932 doesn't make a very good comparison to 2008.  The reason, as DH himself admits, is that the needs of the American people are very different now from what they were then:

In 1932, the Depression dominated American life in ways that none of our current issues do.  The Republican failure to deal with that catastrophe was the dominant, nearly exclusive reason for the Democrats' huge victory in 1932.  Fortunately, no single issue dominates our lives the way the Depression did in 1932.

Americans in 1932 weren't voting for an inspiring candidate who promised "unity" or "an end to partisanship."  They were voting against a morally bankrupt administration that had proved incapable of dealing with a bona fide economic crisis, choosing in his place an experienced leader with a definite platform for change.  FDR's voters knew exactly what they were getting, down to the policy specifics, and that's exactly what they got; indeed, Roosevelt enacted many of his recovery plans within the first hundred days of his presidency.

Obama is a different kind of candidate, for a different kind of era.  Despite widespread opposition to the Iraq war, the dominant disillusionment of American voters today is cultural, not economic or policy-based.  They are looking for a leader who conveys some intangible cocktail of hope and inspiration, and by all accounts they are finding it in Obama.

* * * * * * * * * *

To illustrate this point, let's take a little detour down memory lane and compare Obama with a very different Presidential candidate -- Jesse Jackson, shown here in 1984:

We hear a lot about Obama's vaunted charisma, but let's face it -- this guy really puts him to shame.  Running on a platform (scroll down) almost identical to that of Dennis Kucinich today, Jackson managed to win five primaries as a dark horse in 1984; four years later, he terrified the establishment by winning 13 states and briefly leading national primary polls.  Watching this video, it's not hard to see why.  Jackson's passionate delivery takes his audience on a roller-coaster journey through a history of racial injustice, spouting specific policy proposals as he goes.  The audience is emotional, but Jackson is more so.  His campaign resembles a pyramid, with Jackson at the top, pulling the masses along on his spirited oratory.  "Reagan won Pennsylvania by the margin of despair, by the margin of the fracture of our coalition," he says, and we believe every word.

Compare this model of leadership with Obama's, expressed here in his Iowa victory speech:

Don't get me wrong -- Obama is a supremely talented orator in his own right, though his style does suffer a bit from the comparison with Jackson's.  But what does he really say in this speech?  He talks a lot about hope, but hope for what?  He never tells us; his policies and positions and even his intentions remain as securely under wraps as they have been from day one of his campaign.

Yet the most striking feature of this video is behavior of the crowd.  They are simply wild about Barack, and they show their support with a fervor bordering on hysteria.  Note the woman who shrieks, "Yes they did!" after Obama's very first line, "They said this day would never come."  The candidate is still getting warmed up at this point, but the crowd is already at a fever pitch, directing their adulation at the spot where they imagine Obama stands.  If Jackson brings his audience along with him to new heights of inspiration, Obama's crowd displays the same intensity as they bring Obama along with them.  If Jackson's candidacy is a pyramid, Obama's campaign is a donut -- a great big ring of inspired supporters projecting their hopes and dreams on an enigma in the center.

This picture of Obama is very different from that of FDR, who dominated his moment in a way Obama simply does not.  But it is strikingly similar to that of another candidate who ran, and won, twenty years before FDR did.

* * * * * * * * * *

When Woodrow Wilson was elected President in 1912, he was a two-year governor of New Jersey and the most famous college president in America.  By contrast, Wilson's opponents Theodore Roosevelt and William Howard Taft were, respectively, the former and sitting Presidents.  Roosevelt was riding high on a new platform of policy proposals, called the "New Nationalism," while Taft was defending his own record of what he called "legalism."  These two men were known quantities; Wilson was a charismatic unknown, a polished speaker but not nearly so forceful as Roosevelt nor so experienced as Taft.  As the only man in American history ever to run against two Presidents simultaneously, Wilson was outmatched, outgunned, and out-campaigned.  

And yet, Wilson managed to win the race by being all things to all people.  Like Obama does today, Wilson played throughout the campaign an excellent game of cat-and-mouse with the issues.  As does Obama's scant experience, Wilson's own short political history helped him evade questions on where he stood.  Additionally, Wilson had won the governorship of New Jersey because the people thought he was a Progressive reformer, while the local boss thought he would fall in line behind the boss system (and had good reason to think so, since Wilson promised him he would).  As soon as Wilson was elected, he dethroned the boss and shocked the staid world of New Jersey politics -- but there were still people for whom his willingness to work with a boss in the first place signaled an alignment with the moneyed interests.  So Wilson got himself into a perfect situation: Progressives thought he was a Progressive, while conservatives thought he was a conservative.  He was endorsed by Progressive Republican Bob La Follette and by the conservative Democratic bosses of Tammany Hall.  In an era in which the balance of power between President and Congress was a contentious issue (sound familiar?), Wilson had literally written treatises on both sides of the question.  In the end, Wilson simply gave good speeches and stayed away from the issues, and he won by a comfortable margin.

* * * * * * * * * *

Barack Obama, I suggest, would follow a similar electoral course were he to be nominated for the Presidency.  But now we come to the real value of this predictive model: can Wilson's history as President provide us any special insights into how Obama might govern?  I argue that it can.

Wilson was elected on a vague platform with wide-ranging support.  In addition, he had another advantage that Obama is also likely to possess: a substantial Democratic majority in both houses of Congress, but one under weak and divided leadership.  This provided Wilson with a stunning amount of power, since he was restrained neither by his campaign pledges nor by powerful Congressional leaders.

Most people interested in politics dream of broad governmental changes that they never really expect they'll get a chance to pass.  For instance, I support a scheme of radical trustbusting in local markets that would require a constitutional amendment to enact, but if I ran for President I'd never suggest such an outlandish idea, nor would I anticipate being able to pass the necessary legislation after I was elected.  Wilson, however, owing to the confluence of power he obtained in 1913, found himself with the unique ability to enact the sweeping changes that had been hiding in the recesses of his mind, and he quickly made the most of his opportunity.  Economic historians gush about the incredible advances made under Wilson: the establishment of the Federal Reserve and the passage of the Clayton Antitrust Act, the Underwood Tarriff, and the income tax (which did, in fact, require a constitutional amendment).  Wilson, his political stars perfectly aligned, seemed to be able to get this legislation through just by talking to its opponents until enough of them broke down and supported it to guarantee its passage.

However, Wilson's lack of political constraints also produced another, less positive outcome: he showed an uncanny tendency to be buffetted about by events, particularly in foreign policy.  From 1914 to 1916, Wilson invaded Mexico (twice) and the Dominican Republic, showing himself to be quite belligerent; in late 1916, he swung to the left and ran for reelection on a peace platform; barely five months later, he reversed himself and declared war on Germany; in 1919, he played peacemaker again at the Versailles conference.  Some of this flip-flopping was shrewd politics, but a lot more was merely heedless indecision, and while Wilson did resurface on the other end with a coherent foreign policy vision in 1919, his five years of floundering were perilous for Americans and foreigners alike.

* * * * * * * * * *

If we are to draw any lessons from a comparison between Obama and Wilson, these two would be at the top of the list: a President elected on a vague promise of change and hope, unrestrained by a competent Congress, is likely to be both more brilliant and more dangerous than other commanders-in-chief.  If nominated and elected, Obama will likely be a powerful executive animated by a cohesive vision and demonstrating an uncanny ability to turn that vision into reality.  However, he will also be unpredictable, the head of an administration subject in large part to his whims rather than to the political winds.  Such a leader represents a powerful tradeoff, because, though he can do incredible harm, he is also empowered to accomplish truly astonishing good.  If Obama is elected President, we must hope that he will find his way, more often than not, to the latter.

Tags: history, Barack Obama, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, 1912 election, 1932 election, 2008 Election (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 96 comments

  •  Whoa (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Nick Blas

    If nominated and elected, Obama will likely be a powerful executive animated by a cohesive vision and demonstrating an uncanny ability to turn that vision into reality.  However, he will also be unpredictable, the head of an administration subject in large part to his whims rather than to the political winds.  Such a leader represents a powerful tradeoff, because, though he can do incredible harm, he is also empowered to accomplish truly astonishing good.  If Obama is elected President, we must hope that he will find his way, more often than not, to the latter.

    Not sure what to do with this.  I hope you didn't work too long on this.  Well written.  But still pretty silly.

    Out of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul.

    by Descrates on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 10:24:19 PM PDT

  •  This reads like a horoscope (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Fishgrease, Nick Blas, haruki

    Should he be nice to a significant other because Jupiter is ascendant?

    I mean, are you saying he's going to invade Mexico twice, or start the League of Nations?  Start World War III?

    Or just pass the new Sherman Act?

    I think this historical analogy simply reflects your own biases about Obama and his alleged "donut-like" qualities.  

    And I would also add - what is your historical perspective on the Clinton-era foreign policy?  Didn't Bill Clinton define the very essence of flip-flopping and being buffetted by foreign events when it came to foreign policy?  Did he ever achieve any legacy or great foreign policy vision?  

    •  I'm not certain where you're coming from (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Cream City, jlb1972

      While I don't like Obama, I don't like Clinton or Edwards either, and I don't think this is an anti-Obama piece.

      The analogy works like this -- it's very simple:

      Premise: Obama has run more on style than on substance during this campaign.

      Premise: Woodrow Wilson did the same thing in 1912.

      Conclusion: Let's study Wilson's presidency and see if we can make predictions about Obama's.

      As for your comment on Bill Clinton, I don't see how it has the foggiest relevance to the topic at hand.  This diary is about Obama, FDR, and Wilson.

      •  This is the worst kind of social science (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Fishgrease, Nick Blas, haruki

        I honestly hope you don't have a degree (or god forbid, an academic post).  The unqualified, unscientific and downright absurd conclusions you draw on a limited set of data points sheds no light, only heat.  

        Obama is the Woodrow Wilson of 2008?  Um, Woodrow Wilson was not the first African American president.  How can you say "race is irrelevant" (which you imply)?   The only historical analogue to Obama is Nelson Mandela (member of a formerly oppressed minority group rises to power).  Or Abraham Lincoln (both from Illinois, both state legislators, both short-timers in Washington D.C.).

        As for Bill Clinton's record, you make the assertion that Obama's presidency could be one of most dangerous ever, in part because his foreign policy has no substance.  Hillary Clinton is more deserving of the comparison to Woodrow Wilson, because (presuming her foreign policy stances are as weightless as her husband's) she is likely to follow his 8 years of being "buffeted" aroudnd.

        John Edwards is also a progressive.  Why is he not like Woodrow Wilson?

        •  I actually (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Cream City, jlb1972

          you make the assertion that Obama's presidency could be one of most dangerous ever, in part because his foreign policy has no substance.

          said nothing of the kind.  That statement has absolutely nothing to do with what I was arguing in my diary.  I would suggest that you read it again, but then you'd just insult my education again, in which case I have no desire to discourse with you further.

          •  So can I fault your writing? (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Fishgrease, Nick Blas, Grass

            You wrote:

            If we are to draw any lessons from a comparison between Obama and Wilson, these two would be at the top of the list: a President elected on a vague promise of change and hope, unrestrained by a competent Congress, is likely to be both more brilliant and more dangerous than other commanders-in-chief.

            What do you mean by "more dangerous than other commanders-in-chief"?   More dangerous than George W. Bush and his theory of the unitary executive?  

            Or are you saying it may be more dangerous, but not because of the fact that you think Obama's foreign policy is, how do you say, marked by "flip-flopping" and "heedless indecision"?  Why else would it be more dangerous?

            Perhaps my criticism is better directed at the vagueness of your writing.

            •  That's a fairer criticism (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Cream City, jlb1972

              Be that as it may, I think you're reading things into my writing that aren't there.  I said Obama could be "more dangerous than other commanders in chief," but not than ALL other commanders-in-chief.  I don't think he'd be more dangerous than Bush.  And I also didn't say his foreign policy is marked by flip-flopping and heedless indecision; I said Wilson's was.  My argument is not a one-to-one comparison of Obama and Wilson; my point is that if Wilson was heedless and flip-flopping about foreign policy, Obama might well be heedless and flip-flopping about something, more so than, say, Edwards, whose entire support comes from his policy positions and who subsequently would be hard-pressed to deviate from his established platform if he were elected President.

              •  You say Edwards is the model of consistency? (0+ / 0-)

                I think you've had your nose buried in dust-covered books too long, and have forgotten recent history.

              •  You are disingenuous, sir. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                haruki

                You describe Wilson's foreign policy as marked by "heedless indecision" and "flip-flopping."   Yet, you say you're not drawing a "one-to-one comparison of Obama and Wilson".  

                Did you not also write:

                Barack Obama, I suggest, would follow a similar electoral course were he to be nominated for the Presidency.  But now we come to the real value of this predictive model: can Wilson's history as President provide us any special insights into how Obama might govern?  I argue that it can.

                How can you disavow the whole point of this diary?  Which is to (essentially) tar Obama with the Woodrow Wilson brush?  

                So Obama might be "flip-flopping" about "something," maybe not foreign policy, and that renders him more "dangerous" than other Presidents?  

                I retreat back to my initial conclusion:  this diary is a Tabula Rasa, a horoscope, that means all things to all people.  

        •  This is not social science; it's history (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Nonpartisan, votermom, jlb1972, sima

          Quite different.  Amazed you see it as social science.

          "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

          by Cream City on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 10:57:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Drawing Predictions from History (0+ / 0-)

            Is not History.  That's punditry.  Or, if backed by data, social science.

            I agree with you 50%.  It's decidedly not scientific.

            •  No, it is exactly what we do in History (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Nonpartisan, jlb1972, sima

              -- sometimes with data aka Cliometrics, sometimes with other more traditional evidence.

              It doesn't claim or try to be "science," and it's anything but "punditry."  You don't like History, fine.  But you don't need to get nasty (or show your ignorance of the field).

              "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

              by Cream City on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:03:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  History is a science, but not a predictive one (0+ / 0-)

                The study of history is a science.  The use of data to arrive at conclusions about what happened in the past.  

                It has nothing to do with liking or not liking history.

                No serious historian makes predictions about the future based on past history.  Historians fight about what happened before; futurists fight about what will happen next.

                There aren't a whole lot of PhD's in Futurism.

                •  History is from the humanities (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Nonpartisan, jlb1972

                  and you might try reading up on the "usable past" literature before trying to tell us what we do and don't do in drawing parallels to the present.

                  As for the future, my fervent wish is not to meet you there.

                  "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

                  by Cream City on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:57:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Why make this personal? (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    sxp151, empathy

                    What is your fucking problem?

                    You have no idea who I am, yet you consistently level personal attacks at me as if you do know me.  

                    As for "usable past," I see nothing describing it as a predictive science.  Even if it were, this diary is (hopefully) not an example of the state of that science.

        •  The idea of restricting historical parallels (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Nonpartisan, jlb1972, sima

          to race or locale rather than to the type of campaign -- I don't get it.  And as for your logic here . . . first, Wilson can't be a parallel, because he wasn't black.  But Lincoln can be a parallel for you, although he wasn't black.  But he was from Illinois -- or at least was an Illinoisan when elected.  But the parallel is poor on a couple of counts, because Lincoln had 30 years of political experience, and Obama has only 10.

          In part, because Lincoln was an Illinoisan for a long time, Obama not so long.  So let's see, with your preference for locale as a predictor, perhaps we ought to work with where they were raised, which shaped them.  Lincoln was a Kentuckian.  But not a good parallel for Obama, then -- although we have no other Hawaiian-born presidents, raised in part in Indonesia, to really help us here with what you think are predictors.

          So what the heck, I'll stick with the parallels drawn by the diarist.  Expectations of the electorate based on types of campaigns work better as predictors in my book.  But then, I read History books.

          "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

          by Cream City on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:10:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  All such parallels are arbitrary. (0+ / 0-)

            That's my point.  

            The author literally has ONE connecting data point (and a tendentious one at that):  That, like Wilson, Obama is a cipher, a tabula rasa.

            First, I can think of a number of presidents who ran campaigns that were based more on personality than on policy specifics (Reagan's "Morning in America," GWB's "Compassionate Conservatism").  To say a candidate is "tabula rasa" is simply to say that a candidate is the vessel for the disparate hopes and dreams of a wide contingent of supporters.

            Second, in a pluralistic society, there's no real way to get elected without being everything to 51% of everybody.  

            But why not Lincoln?  Sure he had "thirty years" of being a state legislator, but seeing as how Washington pundits discount Obama's state legislative experience, what difference if he had 30 years as a part-time legislator vs. Obama's 8 years of full-time legislating at the state level?

            Comparing birthplaces is kind of silly - Kentucky in the frontier days and Hawaii are completely different worlds.  The rough-and-tumble of Illinois politics has changed with the times, but it's a better analogy than any other.  They are both genius lawyers as well.  

            •  But it is the diarist's selection of a point (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Nonpartisan, jlb1972

              of departure for discussion, and many of us here are finding it provocative.

              You don't.  You confuse provocative with provoking.

              So write your own diary on your own point, if you refuse to engage with but only diss this diarist's point of departure.  

              "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

              by Cream City on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:00:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  His point of departure is also an Obama smear (0+ / 0-)

                The diarist is couching his biases in a purportedly objective analysis, and I'm calling him out on it.

                See his answers to my questions:  He has no real point, other than to rehash the same old tired talking point that Obama is all flash, no substance.  Yawn.

            •  Actually, no, that wasn't your point. (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Nonpartisan, jlb1972, sima

              Just to compare two comments of yours:

              The only historical analogue to Obama is Nelson Mandela (member of a formerly oppressed minority group rises to power).  Or Abraham Lincoln (both from Illinois, both state legislators, both short-timers in Washington D.C.).

              All such parallels are arbitrary.

              That's my point.

               
              I'll just leave that up without comment.

              Now, as for your criticism of the diarist: first, I partially agree with you.  I'm not sold on the parallel, because the social context against which Wilson was elected is so markedly different than what Obama (or whoever) will be facing.  But you make it seem as if you have a problem with someone trying to predict future behavior by analyzing past events.  Surely you're not the same user who wrote this:

              Not that Obama is MLK by any stretch - but, in terms of the various theories of how to effect social change, he's MLK-esque in his approach, and it's like he's got LBJ on one side (Clintons), and Malcolm X on the other (Edwards).  I feel like I've seen this movie before.

              All such parallels are arbitrary!  But you already knew that...

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 01:07:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  But I wasn't trying to predict future behavior. (0+ / 0-)

                The point of my diary, which I'm glad you appear to have read, was that Obama's message of change is rooted in history and a plausible theory of social change.  

                I'm not saying, because MLK did "x," Obama will do "y."

                I'm saying, Obama's theory of social change is rooted in the same theory of social change which has brought us every progressive victory in history, starting with the American Revolution but yes, leading through the Civil Rights Movement.

                It's more than just "pretty words."  Wars are won with poetry.  

                In other words, I'm saying, MLK, Sam Adams, Abraham Lincoln - they all proved that social change could happen beginning with the framing of an issue, with inspirational, soaring rhetoric, with the building of a movement for change.  

                Compare that to this diarist, who says that he thinks that Obama will be a flip-flopper, because he is like Wilson, and Wilson was a flip-flopper.  That is just ad hominem attack masquerading as social science.  

        •  Let me get this straight: (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Nonpartisan, jlb1972, sima

          you rip into Nonpartisan for making what you consider loose and irrelevant historical parallels, only to follow up with this?

          How can you say "race is irrelevant" (which you imply)?   The only historical analogue to Obama is Nelson Mandela (member of a formerly oppressed minority group rises to power).  Or Abraham Lincoln (both from Illinois, both state legislators, both short-timers in Washington D.C.).

          So Obama is like Nelson Mandela, because the almost incomparable differences between U.S. government, politics, and history and South African government, politics, and history are somehow less relevant than skin color?  Are you serious?

          Race is so relevant, you then compare Obama to Lincoln?

          If you could curb some of the indignation of your comments (the ad hominem is totally uncalled for, given that everyone and everyone's mother is trying to read tea leaves about the future presidency) and turn a critical eye on your own comments, this conversation might get somewhere.

          Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

          by pico on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:33:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Hillary != Bill. Seriously. nt (0+ / 0-)

    •  I think this is an apt comparison. (0+ / 0-)

      A completely detached and irrelevant set of data, used in prediction.

      Shame, too. I think the diarist could write on historical matters well.

      It's not his fault that there is absolutely nothing that can predict anything about how a modern president will perform in office. It's his fault trying anyway.

      Still, rec'd.

      Wrong, but not in spirit, and not a bad read overall.

      It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

      by Fishgrease on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:31:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  sort of (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Greuben, Nick Blas, haruki

    a silly exercise, don't you think, in that Wilson was a vile racist who loathed black people?

    Pretty thin reed, I'd say, upon which you hang, in order to compare Obama to this revolting racist, and his sly and heedless meddling in Mexico, the Dominican, and Europe.

    Doesn't seem to be much of a viable third party around this cycle, either.

    If you must make comparisons between Wilson and a 2008 seeker after the presidency, I'd suggest there's a far more logical candidate.

  •  This is where you lost me. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sxp151, Nick Blas, haruki

    He talks a lot about hope, but hope for what?  He never tells us; his policies and positions and even his intentions remain as securely under wraps as they have been from day one of his campaign.

    What planet are you living on?

    Do you want something more specific than a bevy of white papers, a dozen or so speeches on policy specifics, and about 200 debates discussing the ins-and-outs of his policy preferences?   What, other than a full colonoscopy, would satisfy your desire for "substance" as opposed to style?  

    To put it another way - take any other candidate (or even take Jesse Jackson in 1988 or 1984).  Tell me how they were MORE specific about their "intentions" and "positions" than Obama is in 2008.

    •  Obama has downplayed his policy papers (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Cream City, votermom, jlb1972

      in such a way as to enable people who violently disagree with him to think he agrees with them.

      Having read his book, I think I have a pretty good idea what kind of president Obama would be.  But people who disagree with me strongly on issues think the same thing, and we haven't reached the same conclusions.  Could that happen with Clinton or Edwards or anyone else this cycle?  I don't think so.

      •  Give me one example of an issue (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Nick Blas

        Where you think two diametrically opposed groups can share diametrically opposed viewpoints about where Obama stands.  Honestly, just one.

        •  I think (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          votermom

          he's a supporter of religious tolerance, and like that about him.  My girlfriend's mother thinks he's going to make this country an official Christian nation, and likes that about him.

          •  Doesn't this mean your girlfriend's mom is wrong? (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            sxp151, blueness

            I doubt she really thinks that Obama will make America an "official Christian nation."  Can you point to one speech or one policy platform where Obama, a Constitutional Law professor, has advocated repealing the separation between Church and State?

            He has advocated listening to evangelicals and other persons of faith.  He has advocated religious tolerance, which is where you and your girlfriend's mom agree.

            Nothing says he is advocating an "official Christian nation."  No offense to your girlfriend's mom, but she is misinformed.  This is not an indication of where two REASONABLE people can disagree about where Obama stands on a given issue.  

        •  Fascinating right now is Nevada caucus (0+ / 0-)

          court case.  Obama writes and speaks often of supporting teachers.  But when the teacher's union files a suit against caucus locations that they say will disenfranchise some of them, he's with -- culinary workers.

          Teacher's unions are terribly embattled today and need all the support that they can get to get better schools for our students.  Not better casinos!

          "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

          by Cream City on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:00:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This lawsuit is bogus and partisan (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Fishgrease, Nick Blas

            And you know it, CC.

            There is no equal protection right to have convenient voting locations.  That is why we delegate the allocation of voting booths to state parties.  Provided there is a rational basis behind the location of voting booths, which there is (because casino workers would otherwise be disenfranchised), there is no equal protection violation.

            This is NOT a strict scrutiny equal protection case, because no teacher is denied the right to vote, and no culinary union member gets more than one vote.

            •  No, see, I don't know it. And you (0+ / 0-)

              don't know me to say that I know it.

              But I do know that I really don't want to know you.  Your presence here and in other diaries is just continually abrasive.  Bye now.

              "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

              by Cream City on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:13:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Bye to you, troll. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Fishgrease

                Seriously, what's the point of being disagreeable?

                You know this is a bogus lawsuit - not only from the timing, but from other comments I have made explaining why it is bogus (to which you have never once posted a substantive response).  

                •  You are speaking against unions. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Nonpartisan

                  A union filed the suit.  If you read Nevada papers, you'd know the reasons for the timing.  

                  But then, you made clear that you dislike teachers.  So with you, it's not about unions, it's about which unions.

                  As for disagreeable, your comments here have drawn the ire of the diarist and others; I am not alone.

                  And I certainly am not a troll.  You're clearly just not used to someone standing up to your trollish behavior.  That I didn't bother with your behavior before is for my reasons.  But I sure won't bother with you anymore.

                  "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

                  by Cream City on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:55:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Tipped (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Fishgrease

    For a couple of interesting points. On the whole though I think our style of analysis is very speculative and based on loose analogies and weakly connected chains of logic that read the situation like tea leaves.

    Cthulhu 08, why vote for a lesser evil? Economic -6.12 Social -7.23

    by Timothy Scriven on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 10:35:03 PM PDT

  •  "decidedly mixed" (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Fishgrease

    If there were one phrase I could unambiguously ban from the English language, this would certainly be it. I literally could not read the rest of the diary after I saw it.

  •  "They work every day" (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Nonpartisan, votermom, blueness

    I still remember Jackson's convention speech. Brought tears to my eyes.

    [x] Any (D) in the general. [ ] Any mullah-sucking billionaire-teabagging torture-loving pus-encrusted spawn of Cthulhu, bless his (R) heart.

    by lambertstrether on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 10:47:39 PM PDT

  •  that was quite a speech by jackson (5+ / 0-)

    no wonder the dems recoiled in horror, of a black man pointing out the political power of the powerless.

    as for wilson, i'm surprised the palmer raids didn't get a mention. but then i tend to take a far dimmer view of the man than you do, his support of international self-determination aside.

    surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

    by wu ming on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 10:57:04 PM PDT

  •  According to this excerpt (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Nonpartisan, blueness, jlb1972

    from Wikipedia, it seems to me that FDR voters had no idea what they were getting:

    Economist Marriner Eccles observed that "given later developments, the campaign speeches often read like a giant misprint, in which Roosevelt and Hoover speak each other's lines."[10] Roosevelt denounced Hoover's failures to restore prosperity or even halt the downward slide, and he ridiculed Hoover's huge deficits. Roosevelt campaigned on the Democratic platform advocating "immediate and drastic reductions of all public expenditures," "abolishing useless commissions and offices, consolidating bureaus and eliminating extravagances reductions in bureaucracy," and for a "sound currency to be maintained at all hazards."

    •  There's a point to that (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueness, jlb1972

      But keep in mind it's written by an economist.  People didn't really know that FDR was going to be a Keynesian or the degree to which he would challenge the capitalist system.  What they did know was that he was going to try to end the Depression, and fast, and was willing to use drastic measures (though not socialist ones) to do so.  Look at his Commonwealth Club speech from the 1932 campaign, for instance.

      •  According to Boyer, I believe (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Nonpartisan, jlb1972

        (gasp, a historian), FDR didn't know what he was or was going to do, either.  Story goes that when asked for his economic philosophy, FDR said, in the situation of the country then, that first he would try something.  And if it didn't work, he would try something else.

        But he tried.  There's the difference from the mistake in the White House today.  There is discussion of Clinton's economic proposal that came  out last week, there is discussion of Obama's economic proposal that came out this week, so at least he's trying something (although Krugman prefers Clinton's).

        But where is the discussion of Bush's economic plan -- the something or other that could at least be put in place before a year or more from now?  Oh oh.

        "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

        by Cream City on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:21:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Fishgrease

    So, you're back.  What happened, the matron of that other blog kick you out of her litter?

    As for this post, I should have stopped reading when you started talking about modeling to predict which candidate would be the nominee.  Those models are silly.  I'd much rather play stratomatic.  But I definitely stopped reading when you claimed that the American voters defintely knew what they were getting when they elected FDR.  

    Apparently your not an Americanist, because anyone well-versed in 20th century American history would know that's poppycock.  

    The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

    by DHinMI on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:30:15 PM PDT

    •  Huh (0+ / 0-)

      And here I was trying to engage your ideas thoughtfully, and you come charging in here again with behavior unbecoming of an admin.

      ...Don't worry, I was just leaving.

      •  Can you take your (admittedly) pointless diary (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Fishgrease

        with you?

        And don't let the door hit you on the way out!

        Seriously, your conclusion is:

        Because Obama, a complete cipher, is like Woodrow Wilson, who was also a complete cipher, but only loosely.  Obama may be a "flip-flopper" on some issue at some point, but not necessarily on foreign policy like Wilson.  This renders Obama as a President who might be more "dangerous" than some other President in history, but not necessarily all other presidents or a majority of all previous presidents, but just some (imagined) previous president.  

    •  Oh yeah (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jlb1972, sima

      Perhaps you'd like to explain away FDR's Commonwealth Club speech (linked above in comments), in which he said:

      As I see it, the task of government in its relation to business is to assist the development of an economic declaration of rights, an economic constitutional order. This is the common task of statesman and business man. It is the minimum requirement of a more permanently safe order of things.

      Every man has a right to life; and this means that he has also a right to make a comfortable living. He may by sloth or crime decline to exercise that right; but it may not be denied him. We have no actual famine or death; our industrial and agricultural mechanism can produce enough and to spare. Our government formal and informal., political and economic, owes to every one an avenue to possess himself of a portion of that plenty sufficient for his needs, through his own work.

      Every man has a right to his own property; which means a right to be assured, to the fullest extent attainable, in the safety of his savings. By no other means can men carry the burdens of those parts of life which, in the nature of things afford no chance of labor; childhood, sickness, old age. In all thought of property, this right is paramount; all other property rights must yield to it. If, in accord with this principle, we must restrict the operations of the speculator, the manipulator, even the financier, I believe we must accept the restriction as needful, not to hamper individualism but to protect it.

      These two requirements must be satisfied, in the main, by the individuals who claim and hold control of the great industrial and financial combinations which dominate so large a pert of our industrial life. They have undertaken to be, not business men, but princes-princes of property. I am not prepared to say that the system which produces them is wrong. I am very clear that they must fearlessly and competently assume the responsibility which goes with the power. So many enlightened business men know this that the statement would be little more that a platitude, were it not for an added implication.

      This implication is, briefly, that the responsible heads of finance and industry instead of acting each for himself, must work together to achieve the common end. They must, where necessary, sacrifice this or that private advantage; and in reciprocal self-denial must seek a general advantage. It is here that formal government-political government, if you choose, comes in. Whenever in the pursuit of this objective the lone wolf, the unethical competitor, the reckless promoter, the Ishmael or Insull whose hand is against every man’s, declines to join in achieving and end recognized as being for the public welfare, and threatens to drag the industry back to a state of anarchy, the government may properly be asked to apply restraint. Likewise, should the group ever use its collective power contrary to public welfare, the government must be swift to enter and protect the public interest.

      No, you're right, nobody knew what FDR was going to do when he became President.  Because it's not like he, um, told them or anything.

  •  And your basis for comparing Obama and Jesse? (0+ / 0-)

    They're both African American?

    What?

    It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

    by Fishgrease on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:34:18 PM PDT

  •  "ROCKS...just layin' around." (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Nonpartisan

    Wow...that Jesse Jackson speech was just amazing.  Worth anyone's 7 minutes who appreciates great oratory.

    "Pick up your slingshots!"

    What would Lincoln do?

    by stevedubya on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:37:56 PM PDT

  •  Without the TR/Taft Split (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Nonpartisan

    Wilson would have probably lost.
    The same might have been true if Ross Perot hadn't siphoned votes from Bush I in 1992.

    Personally I think that Wilson's ambivalent vagueness was easier to sell in 1912. We have the exposure of 10 months of media that will tire of Obama's soaring generalities. Sooner or later people in the press are going to decide to make names for themselves going after Obama.

    Draft College Republicans.

    by demwords on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:01:40 AM PDT

  •  I rec'd this because it seems like a reasonable (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Nonpartisan, votermom

    and in fact common approach to the use of history to conceive of what a particular type of politician might be able or tempted to do under particular circumstances. It's no doubt selective - what historical perspective isn't? - but seems strict enough, and I cannot see that it at all deserves the reflexive, and selective, hostility it's provoked from fanatics and egomaniacs.

    Then let us learn our range: we are something but we are not everything - Pascal

    by jlb1972 on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 02:11:33 AM PDT

  •  Jesse Jackson (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Nonpartisan, votermom

    I'd vote for him again, today, right now.

    I forgot how fired up his speeches could get.  Powerful stuff.

    I enjoyed reading this diary, despite the rather distasteful comments from some people.  Your diary brought me a new and different perspective.  Thanks.

    "Keep you doped with religion & sex & TV, & you think you're so clever & classless & free, but you're still f'ing peasants as far as I can see." John Lennon

    by sima on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 04:26:17 AM PDT

  •  But I thought Wilson won (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Nonpartisan

    because of the third-party effect? I thought that the unique feature of that election was that this was the only election where a third party was actually viable and split the Republican party vote? Wilson's charisma may have won him the nomination, but I think he was the default candidate for party-line Dems, which was enough to win the election.

    In our case, there isn't two strong candidates to compete with our default Dem candidate. There isn't even one strong candidate over there. So, I'm not sure how your comparison holds up. But I recced it anyway. I love a good historical perspective. I added PH to my blogroll, too. I'll be reading you again.

    Thanks.

    Bring me a blind camel.

    by pucklady on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 05:55:27 AM PDT

    •  Thank you for your kindness (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      pucklady

      While it's true that Wilson won because of the third-party effect, he did also draw the same kind of wide-ranging support that Obama is drawing.  I'm arguing here -- perhaps wrongly -- that that provided him with a unique mandidate which would be similar for Obama, despite the different circumstances of their elections.  (BTW, Wilson's charisma didn't actually win him the nomination, as he wasn't even present at the convention -- strong floor leadership and some confusing politics at the floor level are what finally got it for him.)

  •  Jesse Jackson rocks (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Nonpartisan

    What an awesome speech.

    -8.5, -5.9 I want my UHC!

    by votermom on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 08:00:51 AM PDT

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