Daily Kos

Recession? Welcome to the Slow Crash of the USA

Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 08:55:50 AM PDT

The buzzword for 2008 is going to be Recession.  A search on google-news finds dozens of recent articles on whether or not we're going to have a recession (while no doubt many people, feeling financial crunch due to higher energy and food costs, already feel there is a recession and has been for some time).  And with oil finally hitting the $100 a barrel benchmark, it is evident that we're sailing into uncharted waters.  Unfortunately, there is most likely going to be a grand effort to continue living as we have for the past fifty or sixty years.  The new reality is that energy shortfalls may quickly reestablish our priorities and refocus people on how they choose to live.

Peak Oil and Suburbia writer James Kunstler wrote in his blog yesterday: "The dark tunnel that the US economy has entered began to look more and more like a black hole last week...Events are now moving ahead of anything that personalities can do to control them."

The "housing bubble" has received some press over the past few months, although no doubt measures are being taken to create the perception that it's just a minor bump in the road.  Kunstler, however, writes,

It's not just the collapse of a market for a particular kind of commodity, it's the end of the suburban pattern itself, the way of life it represents, and the entire economy connected with it. It's the crack up of the system that America has invested most of its wealth in since 1950.

We live in a fictitious world where it is assumed the economy can grow forever.  However, since economists are loathe to admit it, it's vital to point out we live in a finite planet with finite resources that have been rapidly depleted, poisoned and otherwise ravaged for the sake of someone somewhere making a profit.  Writer and activist Derrick Jensen refers to this as "converting the living into the dead" and contends industry will continue to brutalize our environment and planet until every last thing is dead.  So although we'll hear the word "recession" a lot in the coming weeks, it is very likely that we're in the midst of a slow crash.

Blogger Ran Prieur writes in a 2005 essay:

the crash will be slower and more complex than the kind of people who predict crashes like to predict. It won't be like falling off a cliff, more like rolling down a rocky hill. There won't be any clear before, during, or after. Most people living during the decline and fall of Rome didn't even know it. We're told to draw a line at the sack of Rome by the Visigoths, but to Romans at the time it was just one event -- the Visigoths came, they milled around, they left, and life went on. After the 1929 stock market crash, respectable voices said it was a temporary adjustment, that the economy was still strong. Only years later, when we knew they were wrong, could we draw a line at 1929.

I suggest we're already in the fall of civilization. In 2004 the price of oil doubled, bankruptcies and foreclosures accelerated, global food stockpiles fell to record lows despite high harvests, an apocalyptic religious cult hacked an election to tighten their control of the world's most powerful country, and we had record numbers of hurricanes and tornadoes -- and a big tsunami to top it off. If every year from here to 2020 is half as eventful, we'll be living in railroad cars, eating grass, and still waiting for the big crash we've been led to expect from watching movies designed to push our emotional buttons and be over in two hours.

And this was written months before Hurricane Katrina, which gave people a preview of a failing infrastructure, lack of relief measures and other aspects that would characterize a failing civilization.

Post-apocalyptic movies have given people the idea that if the United States or western civilization falls, it will be the type of event featuring total anarchy, looting gangs, explosions and so on.  However, life doesn't exactly work that way and instead, it's a series of minor, often almost unnoticed setbacks that will depict the slow crash.  Prieur continues:

As energy gets more expensive and the electrical infrastructure decays, blackouts will be more frequent and last longer, but power will come back on. By the time the big grids go down permanently, the little grids, patched together from local sources, will be ready to take their place. They will be weaker, less reliable, and more expensive, and they won't cover the slums, but by then we'll all be experts at living without refrigerators and running laptop computers from car batteries scavenged from junked SUV's and recharged with solar panels. Electricity is a luxury, not a necessity. When the lights go out, we won't go berzerk -- we'll go to bed earlier.

Likewise with gasoline. The oil's not running out -- it's just getting more scarce and expensive. People who want it will not form motorcycle gangs that chase tankers and fight to the last man. They'll do what my dad did in 1973 and what they're doing now in Iraq -- wait six hours for a fill-up. If you already know how to get by with a bicycle, you just won't have as many cars to deal with.

The biggest obstacle facing people right now is that no one wants to believe that this particular lifestyle, one based on the access to cheap, abundant energy (that's oil, kids), is fleeting and could come to an end.  No matter where you go, people talk about cars they will buy, boats they will purchase for weekend getaways, snowmobiles for scaring elk in the mountains, and so on.  Worse, many people assume if you buy a Prius, you are helping the environment and conserving so much oil that by golly, your great-great grandchildren will certainly have hovercars and fly with Captain Kirk.  Al Gore finally got people to realize that, "gee, we actually need a clean, unpolluted, intact environment to survive."  Naturalist David Suzuki has often made the disconnect with nature a central theme of his writings.  Yet marketers have essentially twisted that point to mean "buy green", which still requires massive consumption, more exploitation of nature and hurrying along the decay of our world, except with a cleaner conscience.

Writer Kirkpatrick Sale points out four reasons for collapse:

First, environmental degradation. Empires always end by destroying the lands and waters they depend upon for survival, largely because they build and farm and grow without limits, and ours is no exception, even if we have yet to experience the worst of our assault on nature. Science is in agreement that all important ecological indicators are in decline and have been for decades: erosion of topsoils and beaches, overfishing, deforestation, freshwater and aquifer depletion, pollution of water, soil, air, and food, soil salinization, overpopulation , overconsumption, depletion of oil and minerals, introduction of new diseases and invigoration of old ones, extreme weather, melting icecaps and rising sealevels, species extinctions, and excessive human overuse of the earth's photosynthetic capacity.

The highlighted words are emphasized by me for a major reason.  The past 150 years (give or take) have been highlighted by drawing upon an energy source that is not provided by yearly sunlight reception.  Actually, it is stored sunlight, in a fashion, but from a source that took millions of years to develop in a geological quirk.  And the western world has burned through this line of "credit" in a few mere generations with absolutely no regard for consequence.  Industrial agriculture depends heavily on petroleum for fertilization, mechanical harvesting, and transportation of food.  As oil becomes more expensive and scarce, it's conceivable that food supplies will drop.  The planet took tens of thousands of years before the human population hit one billion people (around 1800).  Yet, in barely over 200 years, we're around 6.5 billion.  It's not a coincidence that explosive population growth comes during the age of petroleum, where sustaining large numbers became possible.  However, what happens when that energy source becomes depleted or difficult to utilize?  Back to Sale:

Second, economic meltdown. Empires always depend on excessive resource exploitation, usually derived from colonies farther and farther away from the center, and eventually fall when the resources are exhausted or become too expensive for all but the elite. This is exactly the path we are on-peak oil extraction, for example, is widely predicted to come in the next year or two-and our economy is built entirely on a fragile system in which the world produces and we, by and large, consume (U.S. manufacturing is just 13 per cent of our GDP).

Third, military overstretch. Empires, because they are by definition colonizers, are always forced to extend their military reach farther and farther, and enlarge it against unwilling colonies more and more, until coffers are exhausted, communication lines are overextended, troops are unreliable, and the periphery resists and ultimately revolts.

Finally, domestic dissent and upheaval. Traditional empires end up collapsing from within as well as often being attacked from without, and so far the level of dissent within the U.S. has not reached the point of rebellion or secession-thanks both to the increasing repression of dissent and escalation of fear in the name of "homeland security" and to the success of our modern version of bread and circuses, a unique combination of entertainment, sports, television, internet sex and games, consumption, drugs, liquor, and religion that effectively deadens the general public into stupor.

One needs only take a trip across the United States to see that the country no longer makes anything (tour hint: look for closed factories all across the midwest).  Yet we continue to misallocate national wealth into dead end endeavours.  James Kunstler:

A reader sent me a passle of recent clippings last week from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. It contained one story after another about the perceived need to build more highways in order to maintain "economic growth" (and incidentally about the "foolishness" of public transit).  I understood that to mean the need to keep the suburban development system going, since that has been the real main source of the Sunbelt's prosperity the past 60-odd years. They cannot imagine an economy that is based on anything besides new subdivisions, freeway extensions, new car sales, and Nascar spectacles.

In light of the 2008 primary season where various candidates throw out the words "hope" and "change" every other sentence (if not more), we need to ask ourselves and them, are even remotely prepared to take any sort of steps to ride through the coming wave of difficulties?  Or are we simply going to continue throwing the same old solutions at new problems and wondering why things decay around us?  Kunstler's column this week provides a handful of concrete things that could be undertaken in order to ease a transition through "The Long Emergency".

From time-to-time, I feel it's necessary to remind readers what we can actually do in the face of this long emergency. Voters and candidates in the primary season have been hollering about "change" but I'm afraid the dirty secret of this campaign is that the American public doesn't want to change its behavior at all. What it really wants is someone to promise them they can keep on doing what they're used to doing: buying more stuff they can't afford, eating more shitty food that will kill them, and driving more miles than circumstances will allow.

Stop all highway-building altogether. Instead, direct public money into repairing railroad rights-of-way. Put together public-private partnerships for running passenger rail between American cities and towns in between. If Amtrak is unacceptable, get rid of it and set up a new management system. At the same time, begin planning comprehensive regional light-rail and streetcar operations.

Recently, in Whistler, BC, there was talk of trying to set up a ski train to get rich tourists from the Vancouver airport to the ski slopes in a more environmentally sound fashion than thousands of SUVs racing up Highway 99 (which is an occasionally treachourous mountain road that claims many lives each year).  However, the mere fact that a train wasn't fast enough to satisfy the needs of people meant there was to be no further discussion of creating an alternative to single car transporation.  The first thing that will have to change is people's perception that their "need" to get places instantly and in perfect comfort is counterproductive to the general needs of the public.  A train, which I consider a really pleasant way to travel (yes, even Amtrak!), would reduce the congestion on a narrow mountain highway, save lives and reduce energy consumption.  Yet, when it was shown people might have to take another few hours on a train, the entire idea was scuttled.  What is so important about four hours in your life that solutions to environmental problems have to be set aside?  Americans in particular have bought into the idea that their convenience and their cars are as vital as oxygen and clean water.

Kunstler goes on to suggest:

End subsidies to agribusiness and instead direct dollar support to small-scale farmers, using the existing regional networks of organic farming associations to target the aid. (This includes ending subsidies for the ethanol program.)

Begin planning and construction of waterfront and harbor facilities for commerce: piers, warehouses, ship-and-boatyards, and accommodations for sailors. This is especially important along the Ohio-Mississippi system and the Great Lakes.

In cities and towns, change regulations that mandate the accommodation of cars. Direct all new development to the finest grain, scaled to walkability. This essentially means making the individual building lot the basic increment of redevelopment, not multi-acre "projects." Get rid of any parking requirements for property development. Institute "locational taxation" based on proximity to the center of town and not on the size, character, or putative value of the building itself. Put in effect a ban on buildings in excess of seven stories. Begin planning for district or neighborhood heating installations and solar, wind, and hydro-electric generation wherever possible on a small-scale network basis.

What Kunstler has long advocated is moving away from the car-based city and back to a feasible, walkable (or bikeable) setting where you can work, live and play in one area without needing a car.  I have seen big box store developments in Colorado out in fields that are miles away from any sort of population density and thus requires all their customers to have access to cars and cheap energy to get them there.  It's an utter waste of resources and money to design our living arrangements in this fashion.  Moreover, going back to the reality that business "leaders" in the United States decided to outsource most manufacturing simply so a very tiny group of people could make profits, we're going to need to reestablish the ability to make things.  Kunstler writes, We'll have to make things in this country again, or we won't have the most rudimentary household products."

As energy becomes more expensive and essentially more scarce, our centralized systems will take a hit.

We'd better prepare psychologically to downscale all institutions, including government, schools and colleges, corporations, and hospitals. All the centralizing tendencies and gigantification of the past half-century will have to be reversed. Government will be starved for revenue and impotent at the higher scale. The centralized high schools all over the nation will prove to be our most frustrating mis-investment. We will probably have to replace them with some form of home-schooling that is allowed to aggregate into neighborhood units. A lot of colleges, public and private, will fail as higher ed ceases to be a "consumer" activity. Corporations scaled to operate globally are not going to make it. This includes probably all national chain "big box" operations. It will have to be replaced by small local and regional business. We'll have to reopen many of the small town hospitals that were shuttered in recent years, and open many new local clinic-style health-care operations as part of the greater reform of American medicine.

Of course, while many aspects of a slow crash are bone-chilling, the end of Wal-Mart does bring a smile to my face.  They are extremely dependent on cheap goods being transported by diesel trucks and if the trucking industry becomes financially unwieldy, so does Wal-Mart.  So there is a bright side to change.

Kunstler also writes:

Take a time-out from legal immigration and get serious about enforcing the laws about illegal immigration.

My suggestion regarding stopping immigration is this: we should go all the way on the matter.  If we're not going to allow people from other countries to come into the United States, then we're also going to stop taking their resources.  If no Mexicans are to come in, then the United States doesn't get their bananas, oil, cheap labor in factories south of the border or any other product that comes from there.  People need to stop expecting that we can deny people the ability to relocate to a better economy and still extract all the resources they might require for a functioning society.  You can't have it both ways.

And finally, Kunstler writes:

Prepare psychologically for the destruction of a lot of fictitious "wealth" -- and allow instruments and institutions based on fictitious wealth to fail, instead of attempting to keep them propped up on credit life-support. Like any other thing in our national life, finance has to return to a scale that is consistent with our circumstances -- i.e., what reality will allow. That process is underway, anyway, whether the public is prepared for it or not. We will soon hear the sound of banks crashing all over the place.  Get out of their way, if you can.

I've long wondered exactly how someone can get rich buying and selling money, which often is nothing more than data on a hard drive somewhere.  People have gotten away form the idea that you actually have to produce an physical item of value to someone else in order to have wealth of any sort.  The biggest problem facing the country is an economic system that may very well be nothing more than smoke and mirrors.  My favorite snippet from Derrick Jensen is one the premises for his Endgame books:

There are no rich people in the world, and there are no poor people. There are just people. The rich may have lots of pieces of green paper that many pretend are worth something—or their presumed riches may be even more abstract: numbers on hard drives at banks—and the poor may not. These "rich" claim they own land, and the "poor" are often denied the right to make that same claim. A primary purpose of the police is to enforce the delusions of those with lots of pieces of green paper. Those without the green papers generally buy into these delusions almost as quickly and completely as those with. These delusions carry with them extreme consequences in the real world.

Keep this in mind as we go through the election cycle this year.  Many of the candidates might promise "change" but are they really offering any?  Or are they going to continue the same dead-end policies that protect industry and business as they further destroy our natural world?  We're entering a truly new territory for humanity: end of an artificial oil induced stupor coupled with severe environmental degradation.  Gmoke wrote a diary last night based on Kunstler's column and it stirred up a little late-night chit-chat.  These issues are of utmost importance and the day to day political hissy fits between candidates and their supporters are exceptionally trivial by comparison.

Tags: economy, recession, environment, peak oil, james howard kunstler, kirkpatrick sale, derrick jensen (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 67 comments

  •  Tip Jar - save the trains! (26+ / 0-)

    I've kinda had a desire to maybe work for the railroad someday.  It'd be nice if it were once again possible to travel around North America by rail.

  •  very meaty diary (8+ / 0-)

    hotlisted for more deliberate savoring later; wow, there's a lot in this!

    ...which you sum up aptly:

    These issues are of utmost importance and the day to day political hissy fits between candidates and their supporters are exceptionally trivial by comparison.

    i'm increasingly convinced that the economy will be the primary issue of the campaign, but i'm not terribly optimistic that the discussion will really sink its teeth into the substance of the matter.

    we have got to get on board--and by we, i mean not the mouse in my pocket, but our institutions of government, commerce, etc--with the fact that that environment and economy are not opposing concerns.

    Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. -Mark Twain

    by homo neurotic on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:06:53 AM PDT

    •  I don't think we really can depend on the state (3+ / 0-)

      Government exists mostly to serve the elite business and industry "leaders" and many of the "solutions" we'll hear will be to ensure their survival, even at the cost of everyone else's.  I'm exceptionally cynical about the role the federal government will play.  Kunstler has often written that the world will become a whole lot bigger once cheap air travel is over and travel in general becomes expensive and arduous.  But there's no reason people in Seattle, for instance, should wait for solutions from Washington DC.  

      I probably should have included something about the necessity for people to really try to build strong local communities for support...something that the current suburban structure doesn't exactly encourage.

      •  very thoughtful reply--thank you! (4+ / 0-)

        as for this:

        I probably should have included something about the necessity for people to really try to build strong local communities for support...something that the current suburban structure doesn't exactly encourage.

        i'd love to see a separate auxiliary diary that explores this. the extent to which we have designed space, coast to coast, in a manner that makes our damned cars more important than ourselves is costly in so many ways, not the least of which is an undermining of a sense of community.

        Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. -Mark Twain

        by homo neurotic on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:18:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Which leaves poor communities out in the cold (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ssmt, homo neurotic, PsychoSavannah

        It also leaves rural communities out in the cold. I was reading recently that bus service in one of the rural communities near me can not be maintained. They do not have the money to fund it in a manner that gets the service utilized so instead it will go the way of the dinosaur.

    •  Substance doesn't fit into 30 second sound bites (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ssmt, homo neurotic

      It doesn't help either when neither media nor this sites like these are deliberative when it comes to the plans and where they take us. Instead they choose to tell us candidate a, b and c are all the same simply because they all have a D after their names. In troubled times having a D after your name without having substantial plans may mean less than nothing for us and actually pull us backwards. A President has 4 years to shape the agenda and since time doesn't exist in a vacumn they get to do it while dealing with the legacies of previous administrations. Unless the next President is incredibly proactive(I'm assuming that it will be a Dem)they may find themselves on the receiving end of alot of anger. I would not be surprised if things get bad if the party holding the bag sees blowback if the next President can't turn this around promptly.

  •  The propaganda wars have already started (7+ / 0-)

    You hear Democrats calling for action to help with the problems that are occurring now.

    You hear Republicans saying (aka McCain), "I believe America's best days are ahead of us".

    Democrats are being realistic, Republicans are playing to the "stick your head in the sand" crowd and hope that nothing happens while we are here.

    Kind of like California Budget Policy.  Debt every year, lowered taxed, masqueraded by selling bonds to fund activities and pushing the debt onto out children and grandchildren.

    We need to call Republicans on Fiscal Irresponsibility.  If I ran my household how the Republican's run the country, I'd be a prison.

    •  Reality vs. Fluff (7+ / 0-)

      Jimmy Carter probably lost the 1980 election being based on reality regarding energy and the fact that people can't endlessly consume without consequence.  I think it was Morris Berman's Dark Ages America (I hope I remembered the author's name correctly) that talked about how Reagan came along, blowing sunshine up everyone's butt, because that's what people want to hear, not that they have to alter their lifestyle in order to, you know, have continued survival.  And that is a definite potential problem in the near future.  People aren't going to want to hear about reality.  They want to hear they can keep getting their cheap plastic goods, Xbox consoles, and whoppers.  

      This reply just got much harder to write with a cat deciding to jump all over my desk and keyboard.

      Anyhow, I don't envy any candidate who might try to point out tough times are ahead and people will have to roll up their sleeves and put down their gamepads.

      •  Their are no magic bullets, just (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        PsychoSavannah

        untold truths about the actual financial situation of our country. Unfortunately there is not a human alive that could be elected if stated the truth and the hard sacrifices necessary to fix the problem, if it can be fixed.

        Read this to learn the truth

        If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

        by TKH on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:50:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you need to diary that article (0+ / 0-)

          It really isn't anything new to people who pay attention, yet it is extremely disheartening at the same time.  

          •  I appoligize for linking to that article (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            ssmt

            in multiple place in your GREAT diary, but everyone is so scared of the possibility of an immediate recession that we all tend to overlook what the ultimate fate of America, as we know it, might be. Our future seems to be hanging in the balance and everyone is too scared to mention it. It's as if our politicians are in a collective state of denial.

            If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

            by TKH on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:15:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No need to apologize (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              TKH

              It is something that needs attention and brought up.  A diary specifically on the subject would be very helpful.

              I've had friends wonder if collectively, people in America have a deathwish, considering the way we conduct ourselves.  I think most people are at least peripherally aware a "boogeyman" lurks in the near future, but not many want to confront it.

  •  Try Depression or worse..check this out (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ssmt, Pandoras Box, not a cent

    A recession is a terrible thing, but mild when you consider what is actually going to hit us. America is bankrupt and soon enough the entire world will know it.

    The following article is by our nations Accountant-and-chief, who has held his office for 15 years. He is not accountable to either the Democrats or Republicans. He loses or gains nothing by simply telling the truth. If you want to be scared, really scared...read this

    If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

    by TKH on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:27:19 AM PDT

    •  The one issue that I think something like that (0+ / 0-)

      ignores is the development of major new industries.  And we are siting on the edge of a major new SET of industries, in the form of off-planet commerce and off-planet resource utilization.  

      •  off planet? (0+ / 0-)

        are we really that close to development of off-planet industrialization?

        I find that difficult to believe.

        "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

        by Pandoras Box on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:04:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Absolutely (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Pandoras Box

          Consider the following

          Right now, there are 3 space stations - 1 that is manned (ISS) and 2 that are unmanned from Bigelow Aerospace.  Also consider, Bigelow is planning to launch its first manned station in the next 3 years (I think its three years - I'll say 3-5, but Im pretty sure its 3).

          Also consider these details from Spacehab.

          Also consider all the work that is being done in the NewSpace industry to lower (and dramatically lower) the cost to orbit.  

          And then put that together with the money that can be made from things like this, and you'll see why Wall street is becoming interested in off-planet commerce.

      •  and the way things are going (0+ / 0-)

        They'll be developed by Chinese engineers.

        If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

        by TKH on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:28:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  okay - i'm gonna read it (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      PsychoSavannah, TKH

      but i don't wanna be scared!

      (i'm pretty much there already)

      "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

      by Pandoras Box on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:57:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The lines that scared me the most were (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Pandoras Box

        If the United States government conducts business as usual over the next few decades, a national debt that is already $8.5 trillion could reach $46 trillion or more, adjusted for inflation.

        A hole that big could paralyze the U.S. economy; according to some projections, just the interest payments on a debt that big would be as much as all the taxes the government collects today.

        If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

        by TKH on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:19:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I linked to that story (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      chigh

      David Walker is no friend of the people. This article is a little more right than some he has written before, but it still is not factual.

      It is 2.1 trillion that the government owes the Social Security trust fund, not 8 trillion.  

      They say that Medicare is so much worse, but accept the fact that medical went up a lot more than inflation for years and will continue doing so.  Any one with half a brain could straighten Medicare out.  They don't want to.  They want it bankrupted to privatize it.

      The boomers have tried to prepay their Social Security benefits and they still are.  Only a few have retired this year at age 62. Most are still working. They have tried to get them to do what is right and not leave a mess for the younger generations.

      Walker and the others need to point to the wars and the refusal to fund America with a tax increase on the rich to locate the real problem makers.

      Don't let them trick you into doing great damage to Social Security benefits

      .  Your parents and/or grandparents may be the only ones you can turn to if they keep outsourcing.

      •  The article didn't say it was currently (0+ / 0-)

        $8 Trillion, it says:

        Social Security is a much less serious problem. The program currently pays for itself with a 12.4 percent payroll tax, and even produces a surplus that the government raids every year to pay other bills. But Social Security will begin to run deficits during the next century, and ultimately would need an infusion of $8 trillion if the government planned to keep its promises to every beneficiary.

        If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

        by TKH on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 11:14:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Good diary day on kos and (4+ / 0-)

    this is one of the best...one I will forward to friends and family.

    Thank you so much!

    "Ipstho Phacto"...daffy duck

    by trinityfly on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:32:09 AM PDT

  •  We will have nuke plants on every corner before (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ssmt, PsychoSavannah

    Americans will give up their way of life.

    Just my opinion.

    Rick
    08 Preference - Obama
    -9.63 -6.92
    Fox News - We Distort, You Deride

    by rick on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:33:21 AM PDT

    •  That reminds me of something (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pandoras Box, Nespolo, chigh, not a cent

      Awhile ago on Craigslist in the "rants n raves" section, where anything goes, there was a bunch of posts about SUV owners and how they consume so much gas.  One guy posted back "So what, I have the money to afford gas so it's my right to drive an SUV."  Granted, it is just an anonymous internet post where people often posture and puff up behind the safety of their computer screens, but it does give insight into the psyche of a lot of people.  Money gives them the perceived right to consume more resources and do harm to the environment.  It's a sad mental illness, almost.  I wonder if we can survive our cultural insanity.

      •  Consumerism (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        PsychoSavannah, trinityfly

        The country pushes consumerism as a the path to a "healthy economy," when I think the exact opposite is true. So many resources are wasted on unnecessary, cheap products. Do people really need twenty $5 t-shirts bought from Target?

        Not a Cent to those who won't fight torture.

        by not a cent on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:01:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Certainly not me (0+ / 0-)

          I don't remember the last time I paid for a shirt.  I either get them from being a roadie for Nomeansno (my collection of Nomeansno shirts is to be envied) or from Goodwill.  Reuse is something that needs to be explored more.

          •  It astounds me how much (0+ / 0-)

            discarded stuff is out there to be had for little or no money.

            Another of the huge negative indicators is the number of storage units there are in this country...loaded to the doors with all the stuff that people can't fit into their (overly large) homes.

            "Ipstho Phacto"...daffy duck

            by trinityfly on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:18:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Stuff (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              ssmt, Joy Busey

              If you volunteer — regularly — at a charity thrift store, it will change your view of stuff forever. Items in a store look strange after that, as if they either shouldn't exist (mostly) or should quickly begin a long life somewhere. Things can be used by many families before they melt or disintegrate, and should be. The sheer joy of shattering something should be felt by everyone sometime.

      •  That's one reason I've always wanted (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ssmt

        the government to MANDATE that the auto industry create 50mpg autos, and let the purchaser buy anything they want to, but pay big taxes on every mpg less the vehicle they buy gets.

        Let's see how big they want their cars to be then.

        If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

        by TKH on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:34:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Trains (6+ / 0-)

    I, too, hope we will work toward a proper train system. If they can do it in Europe, why not here?

    Thanks for a great diary.

    Not a Cent to those who won't fight torture.

    by not a cent on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:34:11 AM PDT

  •  Outstanding. (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ssmt, trinityfly, Pandoras Box, TKH

    Nothing would make me happier than to see the contraction of sprawl and the demise of homogenized retailing.

    "Never raise your hands to your kids. It leaves your groin unprotected." - Red Buttons

    by Man in the Middle on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:41:58 AM PDT

  •  I would love to get feed back on this plan (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ssmt

    We need a progressive vision for a healthy society that gives us a fighting chance to save and build real security.

    The "shower the rich with gifts" path we are on, drains our treasury, loots our children's inheritance and leaves us with a massive debt. The unemployment rate rises, home sales sink, the middle class struggles and the nation's banks and mortgage lenders huddle against the storm.

    Plan to stimulate growth, create job opportunities and support local farmers and contractors is to:

    o Institute an aggressive, comprehensive energy efficiency agenda that addresses both our dependence on foreign oil and our threatened climate, by investing in energy research, alternative energy sources and green infrastructure.
    o Improve health care and education.
    o Address our decaying infrastructure, including the sustainability of clean water.
    o Institute needed protections against unsafe products, including our food supply and lead-laden toys; this administration’s shameful lack of oversight has not only made us less safe, but also hurt business by scaring customers away.
    o Provide tax relief to working families

    The plan will be funded by:
    Fighting the corruption, fraud and waste that strangles our government, drains our public coffers and enriches a shrinking few.
    A sane foreign policy, that allows us to cut the massive spending on the military industrial complex, including the payments to those who recently attacked us in Iraq and the $ spent propping up ungrateful foreign regimes.

    We need to secure the long term underpinnings of the economy. Some used to call it "Less guns, more butter", I call it real security.

  •  You can't conserve your way out (0+ / 0-)

    thats the problem with ideas like becoming super localized.  Humanity is a growth organism, and you cannot control growth, despite what we'd like to believe with things like sustainability.  When we try and impose major control on growth, it has been traditionally very bad.  

    If we are forced to choose between your walkabilty based economy, and the fall of civilization, we will choose the fall of civilization

    Fortunately, I don't believe those are our only 2 options - there are plenty of resources based off-planet, and we are very close to having cheap access to space.  

    •  Offplanet? (0+ / 0-)

      I don't really foresee humans getting off the planet and colonizing space any time soon and the window for that is rapidly closing.  It's definitely the realm of science fiction and shouldn't be considered a viable option at this point.  Reality dictates we deal with the problems with the current array of possible solutions, not wishful thinking.

      It's very possible you're right about people choosing the fall of civilization and that may not be the worst outcome.  Humans survived tens of thousands of years before civilization came along and has systematically wreaked havoc for the last 6000 years.

      •  Our Accountant and Chief David M. Walker is (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        twinpeaks

        currently on a nation crusade trying to tell anyone who will listen exactly how bad the financial state of our economy is, as follows:

        If the United States government conducts business as usual over the next few decades, a national debt that is already $8.5 trillion could reach $46 trillion or more, adjusted for inflation.

        A hole that big could paralyze the U.S. economy; according to some projections, just the interest payments on a debt that big would be as much as all the taxes the government collects today.

        Read an article about this here

        If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

        by TKH on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:06:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thre is as much owed for government pensions (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          chigh, Miss Thistlebottom

          military pensions and firemen and police pensions that aren't covered by Social Security.  I find it odd they focus on Social Security when it is the only retirement which has been partially prepaid by those who will receive it.

          Who do you think will pay for Bush's half million a year retirement and subsidized gold plated insurance?  The workers, of course.  The taxpayer, of course.  The rest of our elected officials don't get that much but they get as much as when they work.  We should all be so lucky.

          I want to solve the problems of this country, but we need to do it with true facts, not twisted facts by Walker and the rest of the Bush republicans.

      •  We are much closer than you imagine (0+ / 0-)

        Yes, reality does indeed dictate that we look at possible solutions.

        One of those possible solutions is off-planet resources.  The amount of resources available from space are incredible.

        Of course, the issue is whether we can get those resources, because historically spaceflight has been expensive.  However, if you look at what is happening in the NewSpace industry, we are rapidly approaching a major breakthrough in dramatically lowering the costs to orbit.  

        And once in orbit, you have open access to those resources.

        •  But won't that just make things worse? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Joy Busey

          The biggest problem humans have right now is the idea that resources are ours for the taking, no matter the damage done.  Rather than simply look for more things to exploit, maybe it's time to dedicate ourselves to creating viable landbases that aren't being systematically destroyed by industry and the needs of finance.  Civilization has always destroyed landbases and just moved onto the next one and moving into space is precisely the same thing.  

          Believe me, I love the idea of our future being Star Trek, but I have a feeling in 300 years whatever is left is going to be more like the year 1800.  Assuming we don't hit some of the most devastating tipping points in global warming.  

          •  It depends on what you mean. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            FerrisValyn, Miss Thistlebottom

            I am not even slightly bothered over the possibility that we might "wreck" the environmental of a lifeless asteroid to fuel our consumerism.  There is simply no way that civilization will be able to destroy the resources of space in anything approaching the probable lifespan of the human species.  

            If that consumerism then causes significant effects on our atmosphere, that is when I am concerned.

          •  What you are talking about requires changing our (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Miss Thistlebottom

            genetic programing - its not culture that drives us towards consumerism - its the same genetics that encourage us to have sex, and raise children.  And that makes it fundemental to all human beings - we are as likely to give up sex as we are to give up consumerism.  

            The proof of this can be found by looking at the failure of planned economies - when we've attempted to really control things, between the complexity of the situation, and the vagaries of human beings, driven by the genetics of competition and consumption.  

            Look for example at the attempts at a planned economy that the Soviet Union tried, or other countries have tried - all have largely proven unsuccessful (why do you think they ended up regulating the lengths of women's skirts?)

            The alternative option is to try and reduce technology - however, humanity is a creative animal, that is always looking for an edge to exploit.  

            Neither of these options are going to happen, until you reprogram the genetic material of every human being (or at least a large majority of them) to be less selfish.  

            •  Actually (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Miss Thistlebottom

              There's quite a bit of evidence that small tribes throughout the world (before "history") were capable of moderating their sizes, and living a sustainable lifestyle.  Jared Diamond's Collapse discusses this a bit, if I remember right.  I don't remember if it was that book or one of a similar ilk that discussed a tribe in New Guinea that's been intact for thousands of years, with no visible damage to their environment.  So I thoroughly disagree that we're genetically programmed to be consumers as tens of thousands of years of anthropological evidence demonstrates.  Our culture, rather than genetics, is behind failures of planned communities.  What happened in the Soviet Union is just another symptom of the problem of civilization.  

              May I suggest reading Derrick Jensen's Endgame books?

              •  The issue is the level of control (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Miss Thistlebottom

                required to maintain the status quo, the ease of communications, and the amount of capable travel, and access to high technology.  

                How many various Dkos diaries are about freedom?  I make this point because consider - how much energy does it take to make a piece of paper?   And how often has a piece of paper changed the world?  This kind of basic freedom limiting would be required.  A great example of this can be seen in China - the 1 child policy - are we prepared to do that?  

                These kinds of things were somewhat, and will be required much more, for the scale of our society.

                Also consider the ease of communications - most people didn't leave their villages because there wasn't options - they were really stuck with their lots in life.  But that is one of the things that I think we should (and to some degree do) celebrate about the USA - the ability to reinvent yourself (espcially if you can travel).  People don't want to return to a time when their life actions were entirely dictated by the culture.  

                The 3 things I talked about, communication, travel, and technology, are great democratizing factors on society.  But when you do that, you either end up spreading poverty, or you spread wealth - is it any wonder that spreading wealth is more popular?

            •  A Fundamental Issue (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              FerrisValyn

              Needs vs. Wants is a huge discussion, but it's at the core of what you're saying. Do we need actual genetic reprogramming to reduce our wants and rethink our needs?

              •  If someone can do it without it (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Miss Thistlebottom

                I'll wonder if they aren't God incarnate :D.  

                To answer your point - yes, I would argue that you do.  I would also argue that we are seeing that actually happening, a little bit at a time, with each generation, which is why you've seen, over the length of civilization's many years, humanity having a greater awareness of and moving towards greater fairness and equality.  

          •  If nobody on earth can afford the junk... (0+ / 0-)

            ...from space, who are they planning to sell it to? When dollars aren't worth the copper in a penny, it's just paper. Space won't cure our greed, it won't cure our energy woes, and it won't cure our diseases.

            Another tidbit to consider: no nation in debt to itself is in danger of collapse. Problem is, we're in debt to China.

            •  Actually, you got a number of things (0+ / 0-)

              wrong.

              You said space won't cure our energy woes - You are very wrong on this.  You said that it won't cure diseases - You are wrong about this.

              Space offers increadible resources.  The big cost comes into play because, historically, transportation to space was incredibly expensive.  However, if you look at what is happening at companies like SpaceX, XCOR, Scaled Composites, Armadillo Aerospace, and the rest of NewSpace industry, you'll see that we are very close to cheap access.  

              As for our money being worthless - this is resources and wealth creation, to insure that our money doesn't just end up as paper.  

              Space development is happening without (and in some cases despite) Nasa.

  •  If Anyone had Paid Attention (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    trinityfly

    History, if anyone had noticed, makes it clear that the amazing prosperity the USA has enjoyed for the last 50 years is so anomalous that we all should have been giddy with joy.

    Oh, wait ... my parents were born in 1900 and 1905. WWI, votes for women, The Great Depression, penicillin, WWII, washing machines, cars, houses, schools, dryers, TV, dishwashers, prettier cars, bigger houses, Korean and Vietnam wars, retirement, diseases from smoking, slow deaths from chronic illnesses, college for their kids ...
    That's what this pretty-much-19th century-originated couple saw. Bad, Good, Awful, Amazing, Contented, Etc.

    And we expected the prosperity to keep going forever? When it's only been 50 years that everyone's had indoor toilets, f'God's sake??

    •  That so many don't have any knowledge of history (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      twinpeaks

      is alarming...even those that know their history  can conveniently forget it when it suits their interest to stay uninvolved.

      I remember when my grandparents got an inside toilet and a hot water heater on the farm...big doin's.

      It is alarming to also realize that people won't change unless they are forced to do so...we have many in the country who have never seen hard times and cannot imagine that it will ever be any different.

      "Ipstho Phacto"...daffy duck

      by trinityfly on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:10:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What made this country great (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Miss Thistlebottom

      and different was having a middle class.  Before the New Deal by FDR, there were only the very poor and the very rich.  That is the way it always was in all countries.

      There is no reason it has to change except we have malfeasance in the white house and other lofty places that want to go back to the Great Depression...only this time they don't want us to have the New Deal, they want the rich to have it all, like it used to be before the New Deal.

  •  if you think you own your home try not paying (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ssmt

    the property taxes!  Or, better yet, have the County rezone your property to force you out.

  •  George Bush has been asking Saudi (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ssmt

    to lower the price of oil.  7 years and he is asking now?  The Saudi said $30 of the price is speculation.

    We can all buy less and cut back on our utilities by being careful to turn off lights and using the energy savers where ever we can.

    In a normal capitalistic society, when people buy products that creates jobs. Here when we buy products we create jobs for India and China.

    There really isn't much people can do when a president seems hell bent on bankrupting a country, when no one that has the power will impeach him and his enablers.

    •  I don't buy the Saudi reasoning (0+ / 0-)

      They claim the market is dictating how much oil they put out there.  I have a feeling that their fields are being rapidly depleting and the elites in that country can't let anyone in on the fact they'll have no more financial bargaining power in the world in short order.  

  •  Public rail transportation can be wonderful (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ssmt, New Deal democrat

    Bavaria is a fine example with the suburban trains connecting to subway trains to trams to bus. And then the German state train system is also superb.

    No one loves their cars more than the Germans, but most use the public transport, perhaps driving to the light rail station if necessary.

    One can only hope we will wake up in the US.

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