Daily Kos

ER wait times getting longer

Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:29:56 PM PDT

A study released today in the online journal Health Affairs demonstrates that the time it takes for a patient to see an emergency physician has increased significantly between 1997 and 2004 (Waits To See An Emergency Department Physician: U.S. Trends And Predictors, 1997-2004). The authors, who looked specifically at adults waiting to be evaluated for acute myocardial infarction (AMI), noted some of the greatest increases were for blacks, Hispanics, and women:

Whites waited a median of twenty-four minutes, while blacks waited a median of thirty-one minutes and Hispanics, thirty-three minutes. Females waited slightly longer than males, a median of twenty-six minutes versus twenty-five minutes.

Below the cut: a few random observations from one doc's POV.

The authors determined that these racial differences had little to do with race and everything to do with urban vs. nonurban hospitals: "For patients ultimately diagnosed with AMI, the only significant interaction term was urban versus nonurban, with city patients' wait times increasing 11.6 percent faster per year." Thus, our urban hospitals are more broken than our nonurban hospitals. Of course, this may still be a symptom of racial bias in the public policies leading to these broken urban hospitals.

I heard about the study this morning, in Joanne Silberner's report on NPR. It's a good piece, and brief. I encourage you to listen to it. I was heartened by Dr. Art Kellerman's comment that Americans are focusing on the long wait times for elective surgery in the UK or Canadian systems, when they SHOULD be focused on wait times for true emergencies, like AMI. That's when wait times matter most. There, I gather, we don't fare as well as the folks in the UK or Canada (although Dr. Kellerman doesn't cite evidence). I'd like to martial the data for you, but it's late, I've spent the day seeing patients in my office, and I'm exhausted. I'm an ENT, not an ER physician, but we get tired, too.

One thing about Joanne Silberner's report really caught my ear. At the end, Dr. Kellerman apparently felt the need to drive the crisis home: "If you can't get a single heart attack patient to care in time, how are you going to handle hundreds or even thousands of victims of a terrorist strike?"

At this point, I did a "Whaaaaat?"

How the hell did terrorism enter into this discussion? Is terrorism the ultimate attention-getter? Is it the sine qua non for relevance? Or is it the 21st Century's equivalent of Godwin's Law?

Didn't Dr. Kellerman think the basic message was clear? People are waiting longer to be seen for a possible heart attack. You could die because of our broken system. (Yes, yes, survival data might have given this study greater impact. As it stands, we can only guess. But it's common sense, I think, that longer wait times will eventually bite us all in the ass.)

But no. He had to invoke the specter of a humongous terrorist attack.

I would love to see the odds ratio: chance of dying from a heart attack vs. chance of dying from a terrorist strike.

Sorry this diary is all over the map -- but I found it an interesting NPR piece, and an interesting study, and wanted to bring it to your attention. Thanks!

Tags: health care (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 35 comments

  •  tips for those exhausted ER docs? (27+ / 0-)

    I feel for them, I really do. Doesn't keep me from snapping at them when they page me on an off-call day, though.

    We drew our heavy revolvers (suddenly in the dream there were revolvers) and exultantly killed the gods. -- Jorge Luis Borges, Ragnarok

    by Hobbitfoot on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:32:18 PM PDT

  •  Hey Doc, I have this ringing in the ears, do you (6+ / 0-)

    think it might have something to do with the 20 aspirin I took today?
    (just kidding)

    Good Diary...I guess everything is now being measured and compared to the "terrorist" yardstick.

    "We are a Plutocracy, we ought to face it. We need, desperately, to find new ways to hear independent voices & points of view" Ramsey Clark, US AG

    by Mr SeeMore on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:44:13 PM PDT

    •  funny thing is (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hopefulcanadian, YoyogiBear, jlms qkw

      I have yet to see one of these! I've been in training + practice since '90, and I have yet to meet an aspirin-abuser.

      We drew our heavy revolvers (suddenly in the dream there were revolvers) and exultantly killed the gods. -- Jorge Luis Borges, Ragnarok

      by Hobbitfoot on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:47:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I worked with a lady... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BachFan, Hobbitfoot, YoyogiBear

        ...who had to go to the emergency room becuase she had a headache and took tylenol.

        and when she still had a headache she took more tylenol...and more...and more all day long.

        Basicly she was this close to killing her liver.  And with all the press on about the dangers of overdosing on tylenol, she had no idea it would be bad for her in MASSIVE quantities.

        she wasn't the brightest person I ever met.

        •  her and lots of teenagers (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          YoyogiBear

          That's one of the classic paths to liver failure in young people: the suicide "gesture" (OD on Tylenol) which is more than a gesture.

          We drew our heavy revolvers (suddenly in the dream there were revolvers) and exultantly killed the gods. -- Jorge Luis Borges, Ragnarok

          by Hobbitfoot on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 11:34:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Shrub:Just go to the ER (8+ / 0-)

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/...

    The immediate goal is to make sure there are more people on private insurance plans. I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room.

    Saying the Iraq "Surge" worked is like saying Thelma & Louise had a flying car.

    by JML9999 on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:45:25 PM PDT

  •  If more folks had access to Family Doctors (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    begone, DBunn, Carib and Ting, jlms qkw, BBelle

    they would use the ER's only for emergencies.

    "In Japan, American occupation forces quickly became 50,000 friends. In Iraq, they would quickly become 50,000 terrorist targets. " James Webb, Sep 02

    by ParaHammer on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:46:00 PM PDT

    •  there was a push for more FPs in the 80s (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      begone, DBunn, jlms qkw

      In the Reagan years. The idea was: FPs are cheaper to the system than specialists. They earn less, do fewer expensive procedures, etc. We felt the pressure at my med school, and I suspect others did, too.

      End result? A shortage of specialists across most, if not all specialties. Sorry, I don't have hard data on that, either. But I know how difficult it is whenever my rural hospital needs to recruit.

      We drew our heavy revolvers (suddenly in the dream there were revolvers) and exultantly killed the gods. -- Jorge Luis Borges, Ragnarok

      by Hobbitfoot on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:52:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's Not Just Rural (0+ / 0-)

        The physician group I work for needed 18 months to find a pulmonologist.

        "The game's easy, Harry" - Richie Ashburn

        by jpspencer on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:44:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yikes (0+ / 0-)

          I was afraid it might be more widespread.

          It's fun watching the headhunter offers go higher and higher and higher. I could triple my income (or more) by leaving this area, but we love it here (Pacific Northwest).

          We drew our heavy revolvers (suddenly in the dream there were revolvers) and exultantly killed the gods. -- Jorge Luis Borges, Ragnarok

          by Hobbitfoot on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 11:35:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  So what CVS is doing is good, right? (0+ / 0-)

      That is, opening clinics in its stores that handle routine care staffed by NPs and PAs.  I'd love to hear your take on this, Hobbitfoot.

      Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment, you must also be right. - Robert Park

      by Soberish on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 11:53:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think its good (0+ / 0-)

        seeing an NP for a minor ear infection for $35 vice several hundred for an ER visit.
        However if you don't have the $35 you wind up at the ER.

        "In Japan, American occupation forces quickly became 50,000 friends. In Iraq, they would quickly become 50,000 terrorist targets. " James Webb, Sep 02

        by ParaHammer on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:27:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  it depends on the NP, PA (0+ / 0-)

        or MD, for that matter. The key thing is: training so that you know what you don't know, and you can recognize when things get unusual. If a PA/NP knows when to kick things up the chain, I love 'em. Same goes for a general practice MD -- he or she needs to know when a specialist is needed.

        In a properly working system, gen practice MDs would only see the things the PAs/NPs can't figure out, and the specialists would only see what the gp MDs can't figure out. That's my 2c.

        We drew our heavy revolvers (suddenly in the dream there were revolvers) and exultantly killed the gods. -- Jorge Luis Borges, Ragnarok

        by Hobbitfoot on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 01:47:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  edwards sees helth care as urgent (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Hobbitfoot, Cassandra Waites

    hilary in several years
    obama omits 15m of us
    before he begins kumbaya meetings

  •  Interesting point about technology spending that (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DBunn, jlms qkw

    <
    Another new Commonwealth Fund report comparing health spending data in industrialized nations published today reveals that despite spending more than twice as much per capita on health care as other nations ($6,102 vs. $2,571 for the median of Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development [OECD] countries in 2004) the U.S. spends far less on health information technology--just 43 cents per capita, compared with about $192 per capita in the U.K.

    "The United States stands out as the only nation in these studies that does not ensure access to health care through universal coverage and promotion of a 'medical home' for patients," said Commonwealth Fund President Karen Davis. "Our failure to ensure health insurance for all and encourage stable, long-term ties between physicians and patients shows in our poor performance on measures of quality, access, efficiency, equity, and health outcomes. In light of the significant resources we devote to health care in this country, we should expect the best, highest performing health system."

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/...

    Think Tank. "A place where people are paid to think by the makers of tanks" Naomi Klein.

    by ohcanada on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 09:55:11 PM PDT

  •  Spent a day in ER recently w/heart attack (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BachFan, myrealname

    symptoms.

    First--am just fine, at least in terms of no heart attack. Probably
    a combination of autoimmune stuff and low potassium, turns
    out (after many non-ER scans afterward).

    But it WAS interesting. I had to whisper to the triage nurse that
    I'd had all the symptoms of a heart attack in a woman for the
    last 12 hours acutely, and some earlier. So I waited 20 minutes
    or so, then went for the screening interview, then waited for
    attention in the actual ER treatment area. Maybe 40 minutes
    total.

    I kept being polite, even rather apologetic. I wonder how many
    minorities and women make that same mistake I did?

    The ER docs were wonderful, though, once they saw me, and kind
    respectful and thorough during a very hectic day in ER.

    It is never too late to be what you might have been [especially now] George Eliot

    by begone on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:07:19 PM PDT

  •  off topic -- how the hell (4+ / 0-)

    did I suddenly get trusted user status? Or whatever it's called. All of a sudden I see the option to troll-rate.

    I don't comment every day.

    I diary rarely.

    This must be some kind of mistake!

    Must use my 5 troll-rates before someone figures out a hobbit is on the loose . . .

    (kidding! kidding!)

    We drew our heavy revolvers (suddenly in the dream there were revolvers) and exultantly killed the gods. -- Jorge Luis Borges, Ragnarok

    by Hobbitfoot on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:34:31 PM PDT

    •  Keep commenting! Earn your tips! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      BachFan, Hobbitfoot

      And the Shire will be all good.

      It is never too late to be what you might have been [especially now] George Eliot

      by begone on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 11:04:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Also from what I've heard (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      begone, BachFan, Hobbitfoot, myrealname

      it has to do somewhat with recommending others.

      I know that I was one of several people in the Draft Gore diaries last year who managed to get TU within about 48 hours of each other because we were commenting somewhat regularly, getting a few but not many recs on each comment, and were reccing each other's comments.

      •  interesting (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        begone

        I do rec others frequently. Hmm. And I usually don't comment unless I have something worthwhile to say, so when I do comment, I get recs.

        scratches head

        We drew our heavy revolvers (suddenly in the dream there were revolvers) and exultantly killed the gods. -- Jorge Luis Borges, Ragnarok

        by Hobbitfoot on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 11:38:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You know, I always believed that and lived by it (0+ / 0-)

        since the upgrade a few years ago--the "recs count" thingie--
        until kos debunked it the other day. I sure can't find his
        comment now, though. He's been too prolific w/comments
        lately to search easily. But then, maybe ct knows more than
        kos about this. ;-)

        It is never too late to be what you might have been [especially now] George Eliot

        by begone on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 12:34:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, this recently happened to me, too (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Hobbitfoot

      All of the sudden I've logged on one day and I'm a TU.  I haven't even written one freaking diary (I joined up after lurking simply because I wanted to finally comment).  This new world of hidden comments and troll ratings frightens and confuses me.  

      Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment, you must also be right. - Robert Park

      by Soberish on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 11:56:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Lower The Risk A Moment (6+ / 0-)

    The example cited above used an AMI as a case study. Now step down the ladder a few rungs and think of the amount of non-emergent care being received in ER's across the country while the heart attacks wait.
    I'm in Milwaukee, and I have had a chance to do billing in the past for ER physicians at 6 area hospitals encompassing all economic levels in the city. Anecdotally, I can tell you that the percentage of life-and-limb emergencies was rather low. A variety of reasons (full schedules for family practice & internal medicine, police dumping of the mentally ill, lack of education about health care choices, lack of insurance, etc.) exist for this.
    What the hospital systems are attempting to do here is to triage out the non-emergent cases (such as rashes and headaches....yes, ER docs see this on a daily basis) to urgent care clinics near the hospitals. One hospital system here has set up Quick-care kiosks in the local malls for people with minor problems who can't get an appointment with their doctor. These are usually staffed by nurses or NPP's.
    None of these are the answer until financial considerations are finally taken out of the American healthcare equation.  

    "The game's easy, Harry" - Richie Ashburn

    by jpspencer on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:42:35 PM PDT

  •  The Journal of Proving the Intuitively Obvious (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BachFan, Hobbitfoot

    Nice post.  I mostly agree.  Not bad for an ENT.   See my take over at Movin' Meat...

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