Daily Kos

The Democratic Primaries Are Over For Me, I'm Headed for Greener Pastures

Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:28:59 AM PDT

After watching what the Democratic Party has done to Dennis Kucinich, it is abundantly clear that the Democratic Party doesn't care a whit about democracy or the principles of fair play.

Rather than conducting a primary election for delegates in which every candidate has an equal chance to collect delegates going to the convention, the Democratic Party has rigged the game so that candidates who represent a minority view within the party are disenfranchised.  

The Democratic Party does this in many ways but the two chief ways are through the manipulation of the voting system using the 15% rule, and the manipulation of the debate system by collaboration with the media-military-industrial corporations.  Just as the Democrats in congress have sold out the Party over the war and impeachment, the Democratic Party has abdicated its own authority over its own primaries and convention by giving control of our public elections to private corporate interests.

This cannot stand if we are to have a viable democracy. It is not the neo-cons to blame only. Instead the Democratic Party is bringing us a neo-fascism that is sold with the expertise of Madison Ave. By having no principles when it comes to the conduct of the primaries and the debates the Democratic Party has shown its true colors.

There used to be a time when conventions were open and the delegates at the convention picked the Party nominee after a few or many rounds of voting.  This was because candidates could get delegates in any amounts and build up a minority pool of delegates. When several candidates get a minority of delegates each then it is much more difficult for one delegate to get a majority. For example, if four candidates have 14% that is 56% and the fifth candidate can only get 44% and not go into the convention with a majority.

Of course over a hundred years ago it used to be that the delegates to the conventions were selected through party machines in the various states and at the convention where the nominees were selected, as Franklin D. Roosevelt said, thorough "a system typified in the public imagination by a little group in a smoke-filled room who made out the party slates."  The direct primaries were created and adopted to make the nominating process more democratic, as FDR said "to give the party voters themselves a chance to pick their party candidates."

The primaries used to begin in summer after the June recess of Congress. By creeping competition to be first, they now begin in January and we are all familiar with the most recent controversies over this front loading of primaries with the Michigan and Florida voters now disenfranchised from the primary process through no fault of their own in the wrangling between state and national party bosses, sometimes even party bosses of the opposite party setting the date of the primary.

However, more than front loading, the major threat to giving the party voters themselves the chance to pick their party candidate is the 15% rule that effectively reinserts the party bosses into the direct primary in a sly and ingenious manner.  They have done this by manipulation of the debate system and by rigging the voting system.

Manipulating the Debate System:

I have found the blogs and comments discussing the question of Dennis Kucinich's exclusion from the debates to be most informative.  Many people who would otherwise call themselves liberals or progressives resort to the most fallacious arguments against fair and democratic debates when it is in the interest of their own candidate getting an advantage. Thus all kinds of arbitrary ideas are put forward about why Kucinich should be kept out of the debates with no regard for measurable objective standards.  

For example, people have said that Kucinich should be kept out of the debate because "no one gives a shit" about him, as if that constitutes a rational argument. I have read people arguing that if Kucinich is in the debates then any person who simply registers as a candidate should be in the debates as if it doesn't matter that Kucinich is actually on the ballots of all the states. Cataloguing the logical fallacies would take a separate blog in itself.

But even more pernicious and diabolical to democracy is the acceptance of the idea that private corporate interests, the very interests who are today's party bosses operating in a smoke-free room out of public scrutiny, should be allowed to determine which candidates may fairly participate in the most important public election in the nation.  The party bosses have entered into an unholy alliance with their corporate backers and masters to allow the media machines to manipulate the perceptions of the public in a manner that keeps bona fide but minority voices outside the forum of the legitimate debates, thus delegimatizing those critical voices.  

As Kucinich pointed out on Democracy Now! yesterday:

AMY GOODMAN: You’re just about to come to the studio, and so we’ll be having you join in the debate you were excluded from last night. But before you do, as you pull up right near the Capitol in Washington, D.C., explain your lawsuit and what happened at the last minute last night as the case made its way through the courts of Las Vegas.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: NBC, GE, maintained—well, they—you know, we were invited and as a result of meeting criteria of being in the top four in a national poll. This was before Bill Richardson dropped out. And when I met the criteria, NBC then announced they had changed the criteria so it would only be the top three that would be invited.

We challenged that as a contract, and attorneys in Nevada won a case before a superior court judge, who said that NBC had an obligation to provide me with a place in the debate, and if they did not, he would stop the debate from happening.

NBC—and when that account was journalized, NBC then immediately contacted the Supreme Court, and a hearing was held. I was told it was an extraordinary hearing of all seven members of the Supreme Court, who—three of whom were in Carson City, Nevada and were teleconferenced in, and they heard a presentation by NBC’s attorneys, who maintained that the debate was essentially a private matter and that no—you know, really little discussion on their part of any public interest came up. They alluded that, alternatively, this was a matter that should have been brought before the FCC, not a contract matter, and then, in the same breath, said that cable networks aren’t [inaudible] to the FCC.

So we’ve—you know, we’re in a conundrum here about what the public’s rights are, because this goes far beyond my humble candidacy. It goes right to the question of democratic governance, whether a broadcast network can choose who the candidates will be based on their narrow concerns, because they’ve contributed—GE, NBC and Raytheon, another one of GE’s property, have all contributed substantially to Democratic candidates who were in the debate. And the fact of the matter is, with GE building nuclear power plants, they have a vested interest in Yucca Mountain in Nevada being kept open; with GE being involved with Raytheon, another defense contractor, they have an interest in war continuing. So NBC ends up being their propaganda arm to be able to advance their economic interests.

AMY GOODMAN: Congressmember Kucinich, in the court filings, NBC painted itself as the victim. It said, "Mr. Kucinich’s claim is nothing more than an illegitimate private cause of action designed to impose an equal access requirement that entirely undermines the wide journalistic freedoms enjoyed by news organizations under the First Amendment."

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, you know, the double [inaudible] here is apparent. First of all, they’re, you know, broadcast licensees. NBC operates its network under the FCC Act of 1934, supposedly to function in the public interest, convenience and necessity. They do not do that. And some of the law they were citing related more to newspapers, which have a broad First Amendment protection, and newspapers, of course, are not licensed. You know, broadcast licensees have an altogether different responsibility. But they were claiming that they were shielded from that by a congressional action which exempts cable companies from FCC purview. So, you know, this is one of those things that my attorneys are going to take up with the FCC, certainly, but you haven’t heard the last of legal action on our behalf here with respect to NBC.

I think that what they’re trying to do is stack a presidential election using their broadcast media power, and they’re doing it to further the interests of their own parent corporation, General Electric. And this is something that I am not going to stop challenging, because this is really important to issues of democratic governance, what kind of country we’re going to have, because the corporations are really in a position where they’re using the broadcast media to rig presidential elections by determining who’s viable based on who gets coverage; in the advent of an election, who goes on the news shows and who is getting their contributions from their executives. This is a real serious matter.

AMY GOODMAN: As we break the sound barrier, including Congressmember Dennis Kucinich in the presidential—Democratic presidential debate that took place last night in Las Vegas, we now turn to a question asked by Tim Russert, host of NBC’s Meet the Press.

TIM RUSSERT: The volunteer army, many believe, disproportionate in terms of poor and minority who participate in our armed forces. There’s a federal statute on the books, which says that if a college or university does not provide space for military recruiters or provide a ROTC program for its students, it can lose its federal funding. Will you vigorously enforce that statute?

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON: Yes, I will. You know, I think that the young men and women who voluntarily join our all-volunteer military are among the best of our country. I want to do everything I can as president to make sure that they get the resources and the help that they deserve. I want a new twenty-first century GI Bill of Rights, so that our young veterans can get the money to go to college and to buy a home and start a business.

And I’ve worked very hard on the Senate Armed Services Committee to, you know, try to make up for some of the negligence that we’ve seen from the Bush administration. You know, Tim, the Bush administration sends mixed messages. They want to recruit and retain these young people to serve our country, and then they have the Pentagon trying to take away the signing bonuses when a soldier gets wounded and ends up in the hospital, something that, you know, I’m working with a Republican senator to try to make sure never can happen again.

So I think we should recognize that national service of all kinds is honorable, and it’s essential to the future of our country. I want to expand civilian national service. But I think that everyone should make available an opportunity for a young man or woman to be in ROTC, to be able to join the military, and I’m going to do everything I can to support the men and women in the military and their families.

TIM RUSSERT: Of the top ten rated schools, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, they do not have ROTC programs on campus. Should they?

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON: Well, there are ways they can work out fulfilling that obligation. But they should certainly not do anything that either undermines or disrespects the young men and women who wish to pursue a military career.

TIM RUSSERT: Senator Obama, same question. Will you vigorously enforce a statute which says colleges must allow military recruiters on campus and provide ROTC programs?

SEN. BARACK OBAMA: Yes. One of the striking things, as you travel around the country, you go into rural communities and you see how disproportionately they are carrying the load in this war in Iraq, as well as Afghanistan. And it is not fair.

Now, the volunteer army, I think, is a way for us to maintain excellence. And if we [are deploying our military wisely, then a voluntary army is sufficient, although I would call for an increase in our force structure, particularly around the Army and the Marines, because I think that we’ve got to put an end to people going on three, four, five tours of duty, and the strain on families is enormous. I meet them every day.

But I think that the obligation to serve exists for everybody, and
that’s why I’ve put forward a] national service program that is tied to my tuition credit for students who want to go to college. You get $4,000 every year to help you go to college. In return, you have to engage in some form of national service. Military service has to be an option. We have to have civilian options, as well, not just the Peace Corps, but one of the things that we need desperately are people who are in our foreign service who are speaking foreign languages, can be more effective in a lot of the work that’s going to be required that may not be hand-to-hand combat but is going to be just as critical in ensuring our long-term safety and security.

TIM RUSSERT: This statute’s been on the book for some time, Senator. Will you vigorously enforce the statute to cut off federal funding to a school that does not provide military recruiters and a ROTC program?

JOHN EDWARDS: Yes, I will.

AMY GOODMAN: Congressmember Kucinich, would you?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Absolutely not. Our society is being militarized. And part of the problem is NBC, which is a partner defense contractor through the ownership of General Electric of both NBC and Raytheon. So NBC is really promoting war here.

The truth of the matter is that we need to make it possible for our young people, if they desire to go in the military, they can go to a recruiter’s office, instead of telling campuses that if you don’t let recruiters on campus, you’re going to lose your money. That, to me, is antithetical to a democratic society.

We should be finding ways for young people to be able to go to college tuition-free, and I have such a proposal that would enable every person, every young person who wants to go to a two- or four-year public college or university go tuition-free, by the government spending money into circulation.

We need to reorient our society. These kind of questions really are intent on continuing the militarization of our society and of telling young people in a very covert—well, actually in a very overt way, "Well, here are your options for a career in the military," which is an honorable career, of course, but at the same time, in our society, young people are finding not only are they having trouble being able to afford a college education, but once they get that degree, what are their options after that? I mean, our economy has been a mess.

Until the Democratic Party asserts control of its own debates and takes the question of who may be in or out of the debates out of the hands of the corporate media that is dominated and literally owned by the same people who are benefiting from war contracts and the prevention of a fair health care system, among other things, the primary system is broken in such a way that it can not be called democratic.

As I see it, the most logical, fair, and reasonable way to determine who should be in the debates is to be consistent with the purpose of the primaries which is to gather delegates for the convention. This is a two-prong test to determine if a candidate is a bona fide candidate. so that every bona fide candidate will be in the debates. Any candidate who is on the ballots of enough states to theoretically get a significant and substantial number of delegates should be in the debates as long as he or she is an active candidate.  

The first prong is not whether the candidate has simply declared as a candidate, but whether the candidate has a national campaign that has gotten the candidate on the ballot in a certain number of states.  I would suggest that the number of states should be any combination of states that control between half to two-thirds of the delegates. It doesn't make much difference to me whether the cutoff is 50%, 60% or 67&, but it should be a discrete number that is objective to measure. There is no personality preference involved, no polls or ranking of candidates.

The second prong is a practical question of whether the candidate still has an active campaign. This is most important to keep objective and not subjective. Many, if not most, people who address this question confuse their subjective impression of an active or inactive campaign for objective indicators.  I suggest the following as truly objective indicators of an active campaign:
(1) Obviously the candidate has not announced withdrawal.
(2) The candidate is continuing to actively raise money and report to the FEC.
(3) The candidate has visited and personally campaigned in or has an open campaign office in the states in which the candidate is on the ballot.
(4) The candidate has won at least one percent of the vote in one primary on the previous three primary dates. I call this a "three strikes" rule. Failure to hit at least once on three consecutive primary dates and you're out of the debates until you get at least a one percentage hit in a following primary.

These four qualifications would insure that the barrier is low enough to guarantee an open and fair access to the debates not depending on the super-rich status of the candidate's supporters while also keeping the number of participants to a realistically practical number. Having an objective measurement for the cutoff prevents the irrational arguments that are currently being used which amount to nothing more than rationalizations why "my" candidate should be in the debate and "you're" candidate is boring.

Rigging the Voting System by the 15% Solution

By moving to direct party primaries, the voters were able to have direct influence on the conventions.  The primaries, not the party bosses, selected the delegates to the convention. The delegates were then only beholding to the candidates they were pledged to, and to the voters who elected them, not to party bosses who appointed or controlled their appointment.

Thus, a candidate who represented a minority view could go from primary to primary collecting a minority of delegates, but still have enough delegates at the convention to have a potential to effect the outcome. In addition to presenting that minority view through the debates, that candidate representing a minority view could represent that view at the convention itself.  

However, by changing the rules, the Democratic Party has created s primary system that rigs the process even more in favor of the most well funded candidates who of course are the very candidates who are beholding to the Party bosses and their corporate backers and masters. Now, in order to be awarded delegates in a state primary or caucus a candidate usually must reach a 15% threshold.

That 15% barrier guarantees several results: (1) any candidate who is under 15% can't collect delegates (2) primaries are no longer about collecting delegates for the convention but about public perceptions of "winners" and "losers", (3) the playing field of the primaries is tilted toward the early frontrunner who becomes perceived as a winner well before any significant number of delegates have been distributed.

Since a candidate under 15% may still represent up to 14% of the voters, those voters are disenfranchised by a system that removes them from the process.  Whether a candidate represents 2 to 14% should be irrelevant in a representational democracy where that 2 to 14% should be represented as a minority viewpoint within the party.  However, but ensuring that a candidate uner 15% doesn't win any delegates at all, there can be no incentive for voters to continue supporting the candidate who gets nothing for their efforts.

If a minority of voters sees that their candidate is receiving his or her fair share of delegates in the process then they can be happy to continue supporting their candidate who they know will take their minority of delegates to the convention to represent them.  However, if they get nothing for their efforts, there is no way the minority candidate can continue to solicit the financial support needed from event the minority of constituents who suport them.  Thus the party bosses use the 15% rule to get rid of the minority voices within the party as soon as possible, makeing a charage out of the process pretending that the primaries are fair but rigging them so that the minorty gets nothing for their efforts and is instead guaranteed to be left out of the delegate distribution.

We have only to look to the Iowa caucus and the New Hampshire primary to see how the party bosses and their media backers and masters have competely distorted the process.  As far as the caucus distribution of delegates was concerned, Iowa was a virtual three-way tie. Obama won 16 delegates, Clinton was a close 2nd with 14 delegates, and Edwards was a close 3rd with 14 delegates.

Imagine the difference in the direction of the primaries if the Iowa vote had been reported as a close 3-way race and virtual tie.  Since a candidate needs 2025 delegates to be nominated, the difference of one delegate each in the distribution of the first 45 delegates was statistically insignificant.  To be truthful, the media should have reported the Iowa results as a virtual tie with the outcome as statistically insignificant. Instead, we got the mind-blowing hype of an incredible win for Obama, and the reorting that Clinton came in third by the popular vote, when in fact, due to the distribution of the vote by county she actuall came in second in the delegate count.

Consider this when it comes to the reporting of Clinton's "third place finish" in Iowa:  Why didn't Al Gore win the presidency when he won the popular vote? Because he lost the electoral college count. It is just the same in Iowa, Clinton came in ahead of Edwards in the delegate count so she should have been reported as teh second place finisher in a squeeker of a race. She should not have been reported as the third place finisher because the popular result of the distribution of Iowan state delegates was not the determining factor of the literal result of the distribution of national convention delegates.  

So instead of reporting the results in Iowa in an accurate,  fair, and dispassionate manner, i.e., that the results were the statistically insignificant 16-15-14, the media manipulated the results and called Obama the "winner" of an upset and Clinton the 3rd place runner up when she was actually second.

An identical distortion of reality occured in New Hampshire.  Clinton was declared the amazing comeback winner, when in fact the New Hampshire results were a literal tie: both Obama and Clinton received 9 delegates. The media should have reported: "New Hampshire a tie". Instead the voters were misled about the results, now in Clinton's favor, by calling Obama a "loser" in New Hampshire, when in fact he came in tied in a dead heat.

All this fundamentallly misinforms the voters about the primary process, drawing the attention of the public to the voting results as if the "winner" of the election "wins" the state's delegates, and drawing attention away from the truth that delegates are distributed generally proportionally, but not counting those under 15%.

After New Hampshire the delegates count by one caucus and one primary was Obama  25, Clinton 24, and Edwards 18.  Yet anyone reading or listening to the media would not have known this. They would not have known that Edwards was still a viable candidate.  And since then, with this manipulation of the reporting and distortion of the truth, we have seen Edwards' hopes fade from day to day, as the media now concentrates increasingly on Obama and Clinton as a two-way race.  

The unfair winnowing of Edwards will be complete as soon as he falls below the 15% barrier because he will then get nothing for his efforts and so his supporters will get nothing for continuing to support him.

Instead of the primary process being one in which candidates can fairly compete for delegates in every state and at the end of the primaries at the convention compare results and see what the distribution of delegates are for the various candidates and their positions, the primary process is one that is rigged to throw out minority candidates early so that only the most corporately well funded candidate can compete.  

People call the primaries a horse race, but imagine a horse race in which at every other furlong or turn the horses in the rear are forced out of the race. By the home stretch it is virtually guaranteed that only one candidate is left in the race.  Is that democracy? It isn't because in fact primaries should not be a horse race, because in that home stretch there are states where the voters would have liked to have their votes count fairly toward delegates at the convention.  This is the reason that the absurd frontloading of primaries becomes necessary and the primaries that used to only occur after June are now beginning in early January.

The Democratic Party is Corrupt

The abject and total failure of the Democratic Party to hold fair debates and instead turning the public debates over to the private interests of private corporations and the rigging of the primaries though the 15% barriar that prevents the fair distribution of delegates according to their actual support means that the Democratic Party is corrupt when it comes to its own democracy.  

And what is worse is that the Party denies the problem and denies its reeponsibility for creating the problem. Why? Becasue to adknowledge the problem means to acknowledge that the private corporations control the party lock, stock, and barrel. Any semblance of democracy within the selection of candidates is a complete and fraudlent charade.   The party bosses select which candidates they will accept every bit as much as the Supreme Council of Iran slects determines the official candidates, and then the Democratic Party bosses send the candidates out to the primaries where only the super-rich (i.e., the ones whom they support) can survive. Only the Demcratic Party restrictions are more pernicious to democracy than Iran's because it is hidden within the process and denied by the very party bosses who use the restictions and rules to manipulate the process and benefit from that minipulation.

I see no way that the grassroots of the Democratic Party can fix this. I admire Dennis Kucinich greatly for trying to work within the Party to give voice to the people.  I truly believe that in fact the positions and voice of Kucinich are the voice of the majority of Democrats in the rank and file. The issue polls show this clearly. When no names are mentioned, the Democratic Party voters agree more with the Kucinich positions than with any other candidate.  But the personality polls demonstrate that the issues can be so manipulated by the media and the party bosses and the process so rigged by the rules, that a majority position gets turned into and characterized as a minority viewpoint, and even worse a minority viewpoint that is not allowed to gather delegates fairly.

I see no hope for the Democratic Party. I can't buy the notion that I should vote for a corrupt party doing the bidding of the super-rich transnational corporations just because the exploitation by Democrats is less than the exploitation by Republicans.  I can of course completely understand and appreciate why the exploited voters would want to vote for the kinder and gentler master, so I won't begrudge you or any voter personally for staying within the confines of the corporate controlled Democratic Party. But as long as you vote for corporate Democrats like Obama and Clinton, I do ask you to accept responsibility for the continuation of the war, for the lack of a really universal, nonprofit, and fair healthcare system, for the lack of fair elections, for the continuation of the militaristic society, for the US exploitation of Africa, for the US support of the illegal occupation by Isreal of Palestine, etc., etc., etc. The Democrats are as completely responsible for these as the Republicans.

So, until the Democrats decide to give up corruption and decide to play fair to minority perspectives and to have hold fari primaries I will not be voting for any Democrat who doesn't call for or work for real and actual reform within the Party.  Since neither Obama nor Clinton nor Edwards is calling for reform within the Party I won't be voting for any of them.

I'll be voting Green in Novemeber.

Post Script Update on 01/18/2008:

I'd like to emphasize one point about my criticism of the primaries, and that is about the conventions.  I'm drawing a connection between several strands of development in the political primary process and the convention.

For example, here's a little comment at Howstuffworks dot com

Today, presidential primaries have made the conventions unnecessary for practical purposes. They exist primarily as a marketing tool and a political pep rally, where each party puts on a well-choreographed show. For more information on political conventions and related topics, check out the links on the next page.

Please read that carefully. Is that how you want your democracy to happen?  And the primary factor that has "made the conventions unnecessary" is the 15% rule. So if you don't want the conventions to be unnecessary you should consider removing the 15% rule. But of course, if you don't want conventions and you want the media and the rich to select your candidates to choose from, then by all means keep the 15% rule.

Here's another look at conventions.

Morning Edition, July 26, 2004 · Political conventions aren't what they used to be. Floor fights over platforms and nominees have given way to "unified, happy affairs," NPR News Analyst Cokie Roberts says.

As Democrats convene in Boston to nominate Sen. John Kerry, Roberts and NPR's Renee Montagne discuss the history of some of the most contentious conventions and why the gatherings aren't as dramatic as they once were.

"The parties have been trying to go to the electorate with a unified message," Roberts says. "But beyond that, the people who control the conventions won't let the people with different views speak."

This is what I'm talking about. Party platforms have become meaningless. They used to be the stuff that parties were built upon. Now they are window dressing where the candidate like Kerry in 2004 comes into the convention and dictates the platform to the party rather than having to run as the standard bearer of the platform.

Maybe this old graybeard is just an idealistic dreamer and politics, platforms, and conventions controlled by big money and the party elites will never be surmounted.

Tags: GBCW, Dennis Kucinich, 2008 Election, Primaries, Amy Goodman, Democracy Now, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Barack Obama, democrats, Democratic Party (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 81 comments

  •  Tips for the democratically disabled n/t (11+ / 0-)

    "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

    by Gregory Wonderwheel on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:29:49 AM PDT

    •  Bye. (11+ / 0-)

      Instead the Democratic Party is bringing us a neo-fascism that is sold with the expertise of Madison Ave.

      and:

      I'll be voting Green in Novemeber.

      Shorter you: I didn't get what I wanted, so I'm taking my toys and going home.

      Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival.

      by MBNYC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:36:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry your candidate bombed. (8+ / 0-)

      Claiming the system is biased does not excuse the fact that you had a very weak, marginal candidate in the first place.  There's more to being a good candidate than doctrinal purity.

      "But as post-apocalypse splendor goes, I've done wonders with the place." -- Riley, BTVS

      by prodigal on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:44:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A serious member of our party... (5+ / 0-)

        ..you might wish to be more diplomatic, don't you think? I wonder why, in such a public fashion, you'd wish away a fellow Democrat who supported a Democratic candidate who, for a long time now, has resisted the easy route in order to standby core principles and beliefs that are not, by political design, mainstream?

        Stretching our big tent over to the right while dismissing our left-leaning members will not bode well for our party.

        I mourn the loss of one person when they leave us.

        I certainly don't pretend that the candidate was inferior because he stood by something righteous even even when it wasn't popular.

        •  When are the voters entitled to a more direct, (0+ / 0-)

          unfiltered comparison between the candidates that have the vast majority of the support and the organization necessary to win (yes that means it's getting close to the time that Edwards must leave also)?  If Kucinich is allowed to remain in the debates how would you keep some ordinary citizen (which would probably be more informative than what we've seen lately) out of the debates?  The guy had his chance to build support and he hasn't done it.  Time to move on.

          "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

          by lordcopper on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 09:12:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Edwards is in it for long haul.... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Salo

            ....and your interest in seeing him go away because of him having gathered less corporate money and correlating corporate press coverage is precisely what I abhor about the primary system.

            I'm afraid if everyone shared your  attitude it would reduce the party and its unique ideas to the kind of skunk that lies in the middle of the road cold and dead.

            •  Nice strawman, but shouldn't the field be (0+ / 0-)

              winnowed at some point to allow a direct comparison between the candidates with the most support?

              "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

              by lordcopper on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 10:55:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If it's winnowed, it should be clear that... (0+ / 0-)

                ..it was the voters who decided vs. the media and supporters of the other candidates who only wanted him out to increase their own candidate's already-corporate-gold-filled coffers.

                •  Obama's raised the most from small donors. (0+ / 0-)

                  Antway, what should be the criterion? Should a candidate stay in the race until the end when they continue to be a distant (you decide: third, forth, fifth)?  

                  I know it's a shitty system, but it's  the one everyone agreed to use.

                  "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

                  by lordcopper on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 12:36:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, but using objective criteria, not likes. (0+ / 0-)

                As I said, I agree that the field can be "winnowed" using the criteria of having "an active campaign" that is on the ballot in most if not all of the states.  

                But I would winnow much less than others because I would use the widest possible criteria giving the greates sensible lattitude. After all, how much difference is there between 3 and 4 in the debate? As we have seen not much at all.

                What objective criteria would you suggest for winnowing.

                I tend to reject any criteria using polls because they are too subjective.

                I also tend to reject any criteria using high percentage results because minority results collecting one percent here and 4 percent there is a viable way to collect delegates for the convention.

                "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

                by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 05:19:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  One thing I like about Edwards is that finally (0+ / 0-)

                  there's a presidential candidate that didn't graduate from Harvard or Yale. I think the gene pool is getting a little shallow.

                  "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

                  by lordcopper on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 06:01:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Edwards (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            MBNYC

            has a very large base of support. Kucinich does not. 1-5-20% is nothing to sneeze at. It is the balance of power.

            "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

            by Salo on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 10:16:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Use logic please, not fallacy. (0+ / 0-)

            y arugment is saying Kucinich is a bona fide candidate, on the ballot of all the states with a national campaign so he should be in the debates.

            Your argument is that if Kucinich is in the debate then anyone should be. That is the logical fallacy of mischaracterizing or falsifying the opponant's argument. A "bona fide candidate" is not "some ordinary citizen" so your argument is false.

            First: should a bona fide candidate be in the debate? If you say "yes", then we agree on that point and then the next question is what is your definition of a bona fide candidate. I've given you mine.

            If you say "no", that a bona fide candidate shouldn't be in the debate, then what kind of candidate should be in the debate?  

            "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

            by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 05:13:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Nothing about purity. It's about fairness. (0+ / 0-)

        I know Kucinich wasn't going to win. What I'm pissed about is that the game is not fairly played.

        If you read the dieary, you would have seen that my issue is about the purpose of primaries and a convention, not about whether or not Kucinich "wins".

        It is your attitude that "winning" is everything so fairness doesn't matter that I see as destroying the Democratic party. It is exactly the kind of thinking that gives us Pelosi and Reid.

        "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

        by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 05:07:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Obama and Edwards... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Steve Singiser, MBNYC

      ...took themselves off the ballot in Michigan and Kucinich failed to get more than 4% of the vote.

      He's not a good candidate.

      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

      by Salo on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 09:05:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just because he isn't a "good candidate" (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        venice ca

        in your definition does not make it right for Mr. Kucinich and his message to be excluded from the debate.  Without an ability to get his message past the Lazy Media's filters, how is he going to get through to the electorate?  Additionally, primaries are not just about selecting a candidate, but also for getting the party's platform nailed down.  Without Mr. Kucinich in the debate, who would be pushing the other candidates to talk about Universal Health COVERAGE/CARE (not insurance)?  Who would be there to drag the DINOs in the race further left to address the plight of the shrinking Middle Class?

        -8.88, -7.77 THERE IS DEFINITELY NO THREAT WORTH SUSPENSION OF CIVIL LIBERTIES.

        by wordene on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 10:30:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You don't care what we think, do you? (1+ / 0-)

      Not one fucking response from you to any of the comments in this dairy. Go fuck yourself, troll.

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 12:30:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  "I'll be voting Green in Novemeber" ???? (10+ / 0-)

    That worked out so well in 2000 - Buh bye!

    John McCain says he'd be happy to see our troops in Iraq for another hundred years. I just can't agree with that.

    by Barry in MIA on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:32:48 AM PDT

  •  Kucinich deserves better than you (6+ / 0-)

    He would never act to put a Republican in the White House.

    •  Gropinator .... maybe not intentionally (0+ / 0-)

      But should the Democratic party immediately adopt all DK positions they would not carry the GE. Too far removed from the mainstream. That is not saying some of his positions should not be adopted. Perhaps a bette course would be to move towards some of his positions and try to bring public opinion along.

      As to DK specifically, he hurts his own message with the UFO baggage, a poor record as mayor, being generally perceived as on the fringe, etc. - in my opinion.

      As to a person voting "Green" or for another person because that is a better fit for their beliefs and values ..... I do not have a problem with that. A lot of people vote that way so it is not unique. A lot of people opt to not vote at all which to me is a similar message. And of those that do vote, a great many will say I opted for the lesser of two evils, or I held my nose and supported Kerry or perhaps McCain, etc.

    •  So I guess he deserves better than you too (0+ / 0-)

      Kucinich won't be endorsing either of the top three if they don't declare against war as an instrument of foreign policy. So we will see how that plays out.

      "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

      by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 05:37:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Those greener pastures may turn (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Delaware Dem, MBNYC

    to desert if another Rep. is elected who completely ignores global warming.

    Better beans and bacon in peace than cakes and ale in fear... Aesop

    by mr crabby on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:50:55 AM PDT

    •  Let it happen... (0+ / 0-)

      The power elite have been so hungry to take control of the world..we don't matter..they would rather reduce the population by giving us all some sort of deadly virus than actually help the people to prosper...so let them inherit a desert of a planet...they deserve it..don't they..??

      •  This is an interesting argument. (0+ / 0-)

        The power elite are in control of the world now and have been since the beginning. We have had democracy as an unrealized dream for over 200 years.

        The interesting question is whether it is better to have the naked power elite in control or the hidden and disguised power elite like the Clintons in conrtol?  If you want the gentler and kinder power elite in control then of course you would want Clinton, but the danger there is that many people will be deluded into thinking that the Clintons don't represent the power elite when of course they do.  

        If anyone thinks the Clintons and Obama don't represent the power elites, then that maybe the much greater danger that faces our democracy.

        "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

        by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 05:42:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I believe that (0+ / 0-)

    a certain segment of the Dem party is corrupt but that the vast majority have been overwhelmed by the few bad apples that seem to know how to keep the other's hands tied.  

    In order to see who's-who, just look at who's endorsing whom.

    If you had been in politics for awhile and then decided to run for President, why would long-term colleagues endorse a newcomer over you?

    White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 6/07)

    by nolalily on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:51:11 AM PDT

  •  I feel your pain, GW (4+ / 0-)

    I heard the DN! exchange that you cite above and was appalled, as I was at the idea that Kucinich was to be excluded from the debates.  

    The Democratic Party gives lip service to progressive ideals, but tries to silence progressive candidates.  They seem to take the progressive vote for granted, and then froth at the mouth at the mention of the Green Party.  There wouldn't be a Green Party if the Democrats were truer to their ideals.  

    I am a small "d" democrat, and will be voting for Kucinich in the primary.

    Hearing Kucinich on Democracy Now! reminds of why I support Pacifica, and why I turn off the corporate media.  

    •  Yep, we all live in pain in this world. (0+ / 0-)

      That's why I'm a Buddhist who lives in this painful world and not a Christian dreaming of a hereafter world where big daddy kisses it and makes it all better. Of course that's a very simplistic thing to say, because the kiss of the absolute does make it all go away, and if someone wants to call the absolute "big daddy" then that is okay too. The only problem there is that the image of "God" as  a person becomes an obstacle to touching God as the absolute. Very sad indeed.

      "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

      by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 05:46:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You do understand (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Delaware Dem, stephdray, MBNYC, Pegasus

    that you're allowed to just go away?  Without the Nader-esque drama queen temper tantrum?

    •  Sure, but the temper tantrum IS entertaining n/t (0+ / 0-)

      •  Well, sorry to see you totally ignore my comments (0+ / 0-)

        I'm not really going away. And it is sad to see that you totally ignore the problems with the Democratic Party that I took such pains to write about. That wasn't a short diary and I felt I pretty much discussed two important failings with the democratic processes within the Party.

        Isn't it interesting that almost every negative comment to this diary isn't about the issues I raised?

        "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

        by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 05:49:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Your candidate just doesn't have the votes (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    CJB, Mad Kossack

    It's not like he's an unknown that nobody had ever heard of before.  He ran last time and he got quite a bit of attention.  People know Dennis and still aren't voting for him.

    I'm not saying that the system is fair, but I don't think the challenges were insurmountable if he had the support. Certainly, Mike Huckabee broke through that barrier on the other side.

    I think the problem is that Kucinich's supporters really believe that if only he was able to be in every debate, the voters would pick him.  That secretly, what voters really want is Dennis, but since the party and the media is mean to him, we go with someone else.  And because they believe this, the way the system works seems that much more unfair and injurious.

    But I think the truth is that most people would not support Dennis Kucinich for either policy reasons or because of his personal style or some other reason.

    I know that must be hard to swallow, because he's a great guy and he really believes in what he says.  I think most Democrats admire him for that.  But it's dangerous to equate admiration with political support.

    If the system was perfectly fair and your guy got everything he wanted, I don't think he'd move a single percentage point.  I know I would not vote for him in the primary, though if he was our nominee, I'd go all out for him.

    Anyway, the long and short of what I'm trying to say is that the system we have isn't great, but there are a lot of democratic elements to it and at some point you have to respect the will of the voter, or at least let it make you less upset about things.

    Stephanie Dray
    of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

    by stephdray on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 09:01:06 AM PDT

    •  Popular support (6+ / 0-)

      I think the problem is that Kucinich's supporters really believe that if only he was able to be in every debate, the voters would pick him.  

      No, not in my case.  I want his ideas to still be articulated for the voters to hear, and to push the other candidates towards adopting some of these ideas.  

      •  Fair point (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        peace voter

        Stephanie Dray
        of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

        by stephdray on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 09:10:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'd like for his ideas (5+ / 0-)

        to be heard without the chortling of the corporate owned media that allows Bush to casually joke about the missing WMDs being under his desk, but treats Dennis Kucinich as "wacky" one.

      •  There are two points: fairness and delegates. (0+ / 0-)

        Being in the race is not just about "winning". It is just as much about the Party convention which is about delegates.

        Of course young people today havn't learned about conventions and that the party platform is created at the convention. The delegates at the convetion vote on the party platform. If candidates like Kucinich can get delegtes to the covention, they can argue for the planks in the platform even if Kucinich doesn't have enought delegates to win.

        This is whay my diary is about: the media has sold a bill of goods to the people that the primaries is all about a winning candidate and no longer about the Party setting its own agenda through the party platform.

        I ask people to imagine a different scenario. What if the primaries were about Ideas not personalities> What if the convention was about delegates for ideas not about chrisma contests?
        What if the platform was created first and not a single candidate's name could be put forward for nomination until the platform was finished and the candidate declared allegienc to the platform?

        That is the kind of deep thinking I am asking people to engage in. Instead the Democratic Party and it's convention is being led down the trail of a high school personality contest.

        That is what makes me so sad.

        "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

        by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 06:02:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Heh. (0+ / 0-)

      It's not like he's an unknown that nobody had ever heard of before.  He ran last time and he got quite a bit of attention.  People know Dennis and still aren't voting for him.

      A bit like John Edwards, in a way.

    •  Red herring. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      venice ca

      Inclusion in the primary debates should never be about how many votes someone has or doesn't have in other states.  It is about providing a platform for all contenders to present what they have to offer.  We do not need any media outlet filtering out any more messages, and the disinvitation of Mr. Kucinich was an abhorrent affront to the democratic process.

      -8.88, -7.77 THERE IS DEFINITELY NO THREAT WORTH SUSPENSION OF CIVIL LIBERTIES.

      by wordene on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 10:16:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Interesting point about Huckabee. (0+ / 0-)

      Huckabee "broke through" in Iowa because of the perception by Evangelicals that he was the evangelical candidate.

      I'm really at a loss to know why the progressives held captive in the Democratic Party won't vote freely for the progressive candidate.  It is something I admit that I haven't figured out yet.  I don't understand why people who oppose the death penalty keep votig for death penalty candidates.
      Why people who oppose the health care rip off keep voting for candidates who support the health care rip off.
      Why people who oppose funding the war keep voting for candidates who voted for the funding of the war.
      Why people who oppose nuclear power keep voting for candidates who support nuclear power.
      The list goes on.

      Can anyone explain that to me?

      "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

      by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 05:54:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This diary has a few faulty premises in it (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wordene, MBNYC

    First, primaries never started in June; they used to start in March, back in 1972.

    Second, it totally ignores the fact that Kucinich was allowed to participate fully in early debates, speak to the DNC and attend various party functions.  The fact is, he never built the support. I'll admit that he was never taken all that seriously as a  candidate, but as much as I agree with him on a lot of issues, I never took him all that seriously myself.  His tenure as Mayor in Cleveland was a disaster and I just never could see him as a potential President.

    Third, the party rules we live with, including the 15% threshold, were the product of an effort to democratize the party and open up the nominating process.  If you don't like the rules, stick around and change them.

    Fourth, your blanket statement that the party is corrupt is simply garbage.  Yes, there are parts of the party and certain people who could be termed corrupt.  But we are lucky to have a few really good ones who have stood alone against the nightmare that this Administration has been.  Calling a guy like Russ Feingold corrupt is slander.

    So go ahead and vote Green.  That worked real well in 2000, didn't it?

    •  Cleveland (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      wordene, venice ca

      I don't think it's really fair to say that "his  tenure as Mayor in Cleveland was a disaster".  He was up against powerful interests that tried to privatize the Muni-Light.  Kucinich stood his ground, and the citizens of Cleveland are better off as a result of his courage, vision and resolve.

      (link)  


      ````
      peace

    •  Finally someone at last talks on the logic level (0+ / 0-)

      Now what about the logic?

      First, primaries never started in June; they used to start in March, back in 1972.

      "Never"? Is that true? No. There was a world full of history before 1972.  If you had used the link http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/...
      you would have seen I was referencing a "fireside chat" by FDR who was speaking on June 24, 1938, and talking about the upcoming primaries.

      So in 1938 they didn't start until after June, then they crept up to start in March by 1972 and now the front loading creep is January 3. When will it end? My point is proven by your 1972 statistic, not made wrong as you suggest. If you like the forward creep, then great. But if you think that the creep from June to January indicates there is a problem, then you might want to pay closer attention to what I am saying.

      Second, it totally ignores the fact that Kucinich was allowed to participate fully in early debates, speak to the DNC and attend various party functions.

      First "never" now "totally." If you want to use logic I suggest not using words like "never" and "totally." Now I did not ignore even a little bit, much less "totally" that Kucinich was in the early debates. That is irelevant to my poiont except to the degree that it shows if he was good enough to be in the debates went there were eight candidates, he should be good enough to be in the debate after three have dropped out.

      The natural winnowing process of candidates declaring they are ending their campaigns should be the only criteria. So your second point doesn't contradict my position.

      His tenure as Mayor in Cleveland was a disaster and I just never could see him as a potential President.

      Whether or not his mayorship was a "disaster" is irrelevant to whether he should be in the debates. Also, his mayorship was not a disaster, unless you believe the giant private electric utility which couldn't force him to privatize the municiple electric utility. In fact he was vindicated and that is why he came back to be elected to the state legislature and the congress.

      But of course you are presenting an argument here that only people you can "see as president" should be allowed in the debates so I guess you have left logic far behind.

      Third, the party rules we live with, including the 15% threshold, were the product of an effort to democratize the party and open up the nominating process.

      I haven't seen any evidence that supports your idea that the 15% rule helps to democratize the party when what it does is shut out minority voices and viewpoints from the convention. How is that more democratic?

      Fourth, your blanket statement that the party is corrupt is simply garbage.

      Uh, that's not a logical statement. It is a valid emotional conclusion based on your support of the very things that make me think the party is corrupt. But your conclusion has the same standing as my valid emotional conclusion that the Party is corrupt because the Party systematically shuts out minority voices and won't stand up for fair debates.

      If you think that subjective criteria are okay to use to keep people out of the debates, that the conventions shouldn't be about the platform as much as the nominee, that minority voices should be kept out of the convention, then sure, my conclusion is garbage. But if you agree with me then you wouldn't see my conclusion as garbage.

      Calling a guy like Russ Feingold corrupt is slander.

      That is a false argument because I didn't call Russ Feingold corrupt. Do you see the name of Feingold anywhere in my diary? No. Go a step further, by your logic I am calling everyone in the Democratic Party corrupt so I am even calling Dennis Kucinich corrupt in the same breath that I am praising him. Don't you see the humor of your crazy arguement?

      No, by callling the Party corrupt neither I nor anyone would be calling everyone in the party a corrupt person. That is a logical fallacy. If you reread my diary you will see that I am calling the Party corrupt because of the rules and the way that the minority candidates are treated in the debates.  Now anyone who approves of this corruption is collaborating in it. While I know that Kucinich doesn't apporve of it, I have no idea whether Feingold apporves. If i were to find out that Feiingold does approve of how Kucinich is being treated in the debates and that he apporves of the 15% rule, then I would say that he is aiding the corruption of the Party, not that he is acorrupt person.

      "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

      by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 06:31:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  rec'd with great reservations (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    peace voter, equinespecter

    There is no way in hell I'll be voting Green in November and I'll be fighting to get the votes for our nominee of anyone I know who hints that they might vote Green.  This is not the place to declare your loyalty to the Greens.

    That said, there are some valid points in your diary that are worth discussing.  Mainly: why do we allow the mainstream media the leeway to dictate the issues that will be discussed in our primaries by our candidates?

    This particular question by Tim Russert really burns me up:

    TIM RUSSERT: The volunteer army, many believe, disproportionate in terms of poor and minority who participate in our armed forces. There’s a federal statute on the books, which says that if a college or university does not provide space for military recruiters or provide a ROTC program for its students, it can lose its federal funding. Will you vigorously enforce that statute?

    To me, this is clearly an attempt by Russert to force the candidates to adopt a militarist frame at the very onset of the debate.  Since when is military recruiting and forcing ROTC programs onto college campuses an issue in the Democratic Primary?

    Thanks for bringing that particular issue to the attention of readers.

    I hope that you regain your composure and vote for our party nominee this November in spite of whatever reservations you may have.

    We cannot afford another Republican President. I don't care at this point whether it's Obama, Clinton or Edwards: I just want someone to get in there and clean up the mess and give the country a chance at recovering its dignity and self respect.

    Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

    by Mad Kossack on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 09:31:11 AM PDT

  •  It was a huge mistake to exclude Dennis Kucinich (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    equinespecter, wordene

    from the debates and it is a huge mistake to try to make John Edwards a non-person and erase him from the minds eye of the people...I think the whole system is screwed up completely...but I won't go Green...I may not vote if it is Clinton...I may just stay home and let the Republican have it again so that this country truly hits rock bottom...

    •  irrelevance? (0+ / 0-)

      Has anyone numbers for those of us who lean more the left and who idealogically support 'fringe' individuals  as Gravel, Kucinich and (probably soon to be 'fringed') Edwards?  Are we such an irrelevant minority among democrats??

    •  "Hitting rock bottom" is a good metaphore (0+ / 0-)

      It is like we as a nation are addicted and will need to hit bottom before we can overcome our addiction to what is best termed "Imperialism".

      "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

      by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 06:35:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  proportional representation.... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    venice ca

    I like the analogy of the horses disappearing around every other furlong until only one is left. In other countries, eg, Australia, voters get the chance to vote for several individuals in a proportional system. It seems to work. Voters feel they are not disenfranchised    and popular issues (eg environment) are not necessarily lost/dismissed. In this way, smaller parties, eg, Greens, can have a power-sharing role. Maybe it is time to look beyond our stolid 2-party system....but corporatism (including big media) and political party machines undoubtedly will laugh this off the table.

    •  The House could be elected by PR (0+ / 0-)

      As I read the constitution, nothing in Article 1, Section 2, prevents proportional representation of representatives by state.

      Representatives are apportioned among the several states. There is no requirement that the apportionment be by district.

      I'd like the election of representatives to the House to use proportional representation by party for each state. The number of representatives per state would stay the same, but instead of election one person per district, the whole state would vote by party list and the representatives from the party list would go to congress in proportion to the election results.

      "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

      by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 06:46:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why a 1% rule? (0+ / 0-)

    Why not 5%?, or 10%? or even 15%? They're each arbitrary. I don't much like the 15% delegate rule, but I can understand why at some point, a marginal candidate such as Kucinich would be xecluded for a televised debate. The vast majority of voters -- nearly all of them, in fact, are trying to decide ebtween the other three candidates. While Kucinich might want to be heard, the voters would rather hear as much as possible from the viable contenders. Having Kucinich on the stage limits the opprtunities to hear from the top 3, and reduces their interaction.

    What about the general election? Should that 1% rule hold? Should we invite to the TV debates every candidate with 1% national polling support, or every candidate that appears on the ballot in -- what did you suggest-- 50%, 60%, 65% of the states? I'm sure that all such candidates would want nothing more than the opportunity to appear in such debates -- hell, some of them probably would prefer that to actually winning - but is that hte best use of limited time on the public airwaves, given the limited # of chances to get the large national audience?

    MSNBC was being responsible -- they weren't worried that Kucinich might say something contrary to the interests of their corporate parent.

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 10:20:32 AM PDT

    •  1% because it is a single digit about 0%. (0+ / 0-)

      As I see it zero is not an arbitraary number. It is a reasonable number so that a person who has zero support must face the music.  But because the primary is about getting delegates to the convention, I can also entertain the idea of a cutoff of zero delegates rather than zero percent.

      If the percentage rule is removed, and a delegate rule is imposed, then the percentage would be the percentage necessary to get one delegate. For example, if Iowa has 45 delegates, then a person needs 2.2% to get one delegate. That would be a non-arbitrary percentage.  

      The idea is that a candidate needs a fair chance to collect delegates, the candidate doesn't have to be a "winner" because the convention should be about the platform as much as the nominee. Minority candidates should be able to get delegates so that the minority view can be represented in the convention when planks are being debated and adopted.

      I'm not at all worried that too many candidates would attempt to get on the ballot in every state just for the opportunity to be in the debate. If a candidate does get it together to be on all the ballots, then that by itself is an indication (to me) that the person deserves to be in the debates.

      "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

      by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 06:57:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  As for voting Green... (0+ / 0-)

    Since you're determined to screw us and the American people over your petty differences, I say go fuck yourself.

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 10:22:22 AM PDT

    •  Funny... (0+ / 0-)

      After a reasonable thoughtful post you post this crap. Very funny. Just goes to show.

      "The United States will always do the right thing, after tr