Daily Kos

Exhuming Reagan's corpse

Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 05:48:53 AM PDT

It happens each Republican debate. Each rich Republican hopeful poses for pictures with it, a limp arm slung over the hopeful's shoulder.

Today, DailyKos has descended to a similar depth of Reagan necromania. But instead of propping it up, people are writing comments to a highly recommended diary that disparage, stomp on, and otherwise desecrate Reagan's corpse.

That's fine -- say where you stand with respect to Reagan! For me, it is a great litmus test. Anyone who lived through the 1980's and thinks it was "Morning in America" is certifiably insane in my book.

Now, let's talk about Obama.

I appreciate that everyone is looking for the holy grail of the campaign gaffe, but, people! There are comments to a recommended diary about Obama's remark on Reagan with 50 recommends that basically pound on Reagan's corpse and then say "See, Obama?"

And that's tragic. I listened to the entire 49 minute interview, and this is a real miscarriage of justice. That's not too strong a phrase.

Obama was talking about perceptions, and the way candidates are received by the public. We know that is the topic from the question that was asked (why isn't this mentioned in our discussion?):

So is your conversation now intended to turn toward African-American people to endorse candidates, to vote for candidates who have this particular ideological stance?

Did anyone notice that this exchange is about race? Specifically, on Obama's appeal to the African-American voter? His answer begins:

My pitch now is to vote for me, because I think I can deliver on what I just promised. . . But I always say that I can't do this by myself. . . There is no legislative magic that allows you to pass bold proposals unless the American people are behind you.

He is being asked about his appeal, about the dynamics of the nomination. He goes on to talk about how can one actually change things given the power of oil companies, etc. Obama says a president needs popular support. (The lead-up to the question was his saying that popular support is needed to overcome special interests: "If congressmen start to play games, the public understands, and that's why it is so important to open up the process.") But special interests are so powerful that "unless a president comes in" and has public support for specific policies, we'll keep getting legislation that favors special interests. The follow-up question:

Granted, you're here to get yourself elected [inaudible] but at this period of time you're running up to people voting for their congressmen and their senators. . .

Obama's answer cuts in:

If I'm the nominee I'll have a better chance of bringing in people of like mind.

He says he's shifting the political paradigm, he can bring people along on my coattails -- elect Democratic congressmen and senators. It is in this context that he is talking about whether a person can activate voters. Obama talks about the possibility of bringing people together, of starting a movement despite the partisanship in congress (he explicitly says there is more of that coming from the Republicans, btw).

Now comes the Reagan quote. Look at all the words that are talking about people's perception that Reagan was actually representing their views:

I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure.  I think part of what's different are the times.  I do think that for example the 1980 was different.  I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not.  He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it.  I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating.  I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing.

It is about what people thought about Reagan. He is not saying he liked Reagan's policies (elsewhere he has explicitly said the opposite), he is saying he wants to emulate the way Reagan was able to "change the paradigm."

I can prove this. Look at the line -- still part of the same answer -- that is left out of the diary:

I think Kennedy, 20 years earlier, moved the country in a fundamentally different direction. So I think a lot of it had to do with the times.

This demolishes the idea that Obama is approving of Reagan's policies. He says the exact same thing about Kennedy. It isn't about policy, it is about the possibility of "resonating with the American people." It is about being perceived as the right person at the right time.

Personal note: I too went to college in the Reagan era and I have hated Reagan as long and as bitterly as anyone. But Obama's overly cerebral comments are not praising Reagan, they're talking about something I distinctly remember -- the way that people believed Reagan was speaking for them. It drove me crazy that Ronald Reagan was able to create a new center by effectively moving the center to the right. You have to acknowledge that if you want to understand how someone as batsh*t crazy as George Bush ever got into office.

Do I want a candidate to resonate the same way that Kennedy and Reagan did, except with  liberal values? Yes, on Obama, yes on Edwards, and yes on Clinton. Yes, yes, yes. That's a great goal, and it is actually expressed very clearly by this candidate.

Reagan's corpse? Stop flinging it at people. Especially people who have spent their entire lives as progressives trying to fix the problems Reagan created.

Tags: Barack Obama, Ronald Reagan, Nevada, paradigm change (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 63 comments

  •  Context (14+ / 0-)

    matters.

    "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

    by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 05:51:11 AM PDT

    •  Except on DKos (6+ / 0-)

      at primary season, apparently.

      Thanks for this perspective.

      "Politics didn't lead me to working people. Working people led me to politics." Barack Obama

      by MLDB on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 05:53:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, it sure does Mark (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lanikai, jlb1972, Tennessee Dave

      Obama: "I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing."

      grannyhelen: people actually weren't feeling that they wanted clarity, optimism and a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing.

      People were in fear. The 1980 election was about fear. It was not about hope. The GOP has been attempting to spread the message of Reagan the Great Optimist/Hopemonger/etc. in an effort to cannonize him. This spin is far from reality.

      ----

      Obama also referred to Reagan as a 'great' president. There's no other way to parse it:

      "But I think, when I think about great presidents, I think about those who transform how we think about ourselves as a country in fundamental ways...And, you know, there are circumstances in which, I would argue, Ronald Reagan was a very successful president."

      •  We agree (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        DelRPCV, highacidity

        About some things.

        You concede that if he said the same thing about Kennedy, this cannot be about policy positions, then?

        So, when Obama talks about how Reagan "tapped into what people were already feeling"  you might be right that Obama misunderstood what Reagan tapped into. Maybe it actually was fear. We can argue about what people were feeling all day, but it doesn't change the fact that Obama is talking about perceptions of Reagan and praising his policies.

        Note my concession.

        It is also clear (and I'll be interested to see if you can concede this) that of all the senses of "great" and "successful" that one could use to describe Reagan, Obama means "great" as in "great communicator" and "successful" at implementing his policy. Listen to the whole interview.

        Please, I spent a lot of time pointing out how commentors took these quotations out of context, to be talking about approving Reagan's policies not Reagan's ability to use popular support to change the paradigm. Simply quoting grannyhelen without responding to the substantive point of the diary is not advancing the debate.

        "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

        by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 06:14:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ok, let's just forget about quotes, context, etc. (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          MahFellaMerkins, lanikai, jlb1972

          and cut to the chase.

          He's nowhere near the White House yet, and already, on an increasing basis, he needs his Dana Perinos to come out and explain that no, we've got it all wrong. it's not what you think, just like George Bush always does.

          The bottom line is we're Democrats and so is Obama. If, as a Democratic presidential candidate, he can't find a suitable Democrat to get his point across, then he needs to do some serious soul searching, and if you can't see that, you do too.

          •  Only talk about good people when writing history? (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Mad Kossack, Pegasus

            You have to be able to say that George Bush successfully co-opted congress.
            You have to be able to say that Hitler successfully manipulated public opinion.
            So, too, you have to be able to say Reagan successfully created the perception he was tapping into a broadly accepted public sentiment.

            Can you imagine writing a history book and not mentioning anyone you disapproved of? It would be Orwellian to require our candidates to limit themselves to the discussion of other candidates.

            You concede the point of the diary that Obama was not  approving Reagan's policies, but talking about Reagan's ability to use popular support to change the paradigm. If he's discussing Reagan in that sense, where is the harm?

            I did the soul-searching you recommended. My soul checks out.

            "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

            by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 06:46:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thankyou Dana (0+ / 1-)

              Hidden by:
              MarkC

              I'll do my best to keep that in mind every time I hear one of the Republican candidates channel Reagan too.

              •  Offensive (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                lgmcp

                As I explained in the diary, I loathe Reagan. And obviously Dana Perino, too. Please note that I treated you with respect and talked about your ideas.

                "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

                by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 07:05:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  TR abuse (0+ / 0-)

                  Knock yourself out. Defend Obama's channeling of a president you admit you loathe. Knock yourself out.

                  This makes no sense, and you know it. Have a lovely day.

                  •  Tell me what you accomplished (0+ / 0-)

                    with your comment besides an ad hominem insult, which only served "disrupt the discussion," and I'll take it back. I rarely troll rate, but I also don't like insults.

                    "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

                    by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 07:58:03 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  I'm late to this whole Obama-Reagan brouhaha (0+ / 0-)

              but the above comment strikes me as spot-on.  

              Reagan had plenty of folks buffaloed, for the longest time, it really can't be denied.  So, for that matter, did GWB  -- with his long-since-vanished "compassionate" have-a-beerness.  And, so they tell me, did JFK, though I've never quite connected to that. A charisma, myth, or personal authority that transcends party and platform (or even competence).  

              Well, nice work if you can get it, I guess.  

              But also a shrewd enough musing on how it is that politician and orators create buy-in.  

              "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

              by lgmcp on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:21:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  The "word of the day" after the last GOP debate (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MarkC, lgmcp, phoenixdreamz

      was "Reagan", every candidate competing to get the name in each argument.

      And if we weren't under St.Ronnies watchful eye, we would be slaves to the Grenada Regime RIGHT NOW, so thank your lucky stars.

    •  The problem with Obama's remarks is NOT (5+ / 0-)

      his analysis that Reagan created more change than Nixon or Clinton. Surely, Reagan was able to effect greater change from Carter (and even going back to Nixon) than Clinton was able to effect from Reagan and Bush.

      Of course, making this point underscores the importance of finding out exactly what kinds of change Obama, Clinton, and Edwards want to make, and how they want to effect change. Change as a slogan doesn't tell us anything worth knowing about a candidate.

      But I am troubled by Obama's (apparently approving) reference to "all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s." In the context of Reagan's election, this doesn't seem to be a reference to such things as Vietnam and Watergate. Rather, it calls to mind civil rights, the Great Society, women's liberation, and the like.

      Perhaps Obama meant to refer to people's perceptions that these constituted excesses. To the extent that was true, however, the perceptions were more manufactured than real, reflected some of what is worst in America, and should have been fought rather than ridden to the White House. I wish Obama were clearer about this.

      •  Your last graph summarizes my problem (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MarkC, Cassandra77, phoenixdreamz

        with this perfectly, but I think Obama intentionally blurred these matters. He knows what he's doing.

        Then let us learn our range: we are something but we are not everything - Pascal

        by jlb1972 on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 06:45:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You think civil rights etc. were excesses? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MarkC

        Of course you don't (I assume).  Why do you assume that Obama does?  That is, why do you assume he's talking about curbing the positive accomplishments of the 60's and 70's rather than the negative things (including, BTW, the problems of Nixon)?

        •  Chicago '68, Kent State were excesses (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Cassandra77, lanikai, lgmcp, jlb1972

          Watergate was excess, and the Congressional reaction afterward tipped scales the other way....

          And the US was not ready to sacrifice comfort and luxury to wean itself from imported oil as Carter wanted.

          Reagan was "fergetaboutit" whaddyagonnado?

        •  Clarity, or in this instance, (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jlb1972

          lack of clarity is my primary concern.

          If asked directly, I doubt Obama would call civil rights, etc., excesses. But his remarks do not make clearly make that point.

          Had Obama clearly said that Reagan took advantage of, and, indeed, contributed to, people's misperceptions of (limited) progressive steps forward in the 1960s and 1970s as being excessive, that would have undermined the notion that "change" by itself is an adequate program or slogan.

          •  unreasonable standard (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Pegasus

            aa -- these remarks were not freestanding, they were part of a question and answer. If I'm discussing electoral politics, not Reagan's record, I don't see why I have to add "and Reagan tricked people" every time I talk about his popularity. Listen to the interview (link in diary) and tell me if you think that in context such a clarification would even have been relevant.

            I recommend also MBNYC's diary on this topic.

            "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

            by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:28:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  That is true (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MarkC

      "Context matters"

      It matters though for ALL the candidates.  Been a lot of trashing here and elsewhere where "context" was deliberately ignored for the past month or so.  If we all remember that, it would be good for all of us.

  •  Ummmm... (4+ / 0-)

    That's fine -- say where you stand with respect to Reagan! For me, it is a great litmus test. Anyone who lived through the 1980's and thinks it was "Morning in America" is certifiably insane in my book.

    While he's reformed - you ummm... are aware the proprietor of the site you're posting on has confessed to being a Reagan fan during the 80s, aren't you?

    I guess everyone's got their own blog now.

    by zonk on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 05:55:45 AM PDT

  •  We've reached a new low point (7+ / 0-)

    here in Orange-istan.  I really thought people here were smarter than this. The level of discourse is on the decline. Maybe after primary season some sanity will return.

    Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

    by Mad Kossack on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 05:56:37 AM PDT

  •  They flew that coffin around for like a week (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MarkC, highacidity, Mad Kossack

    So folks could forget about what a schmuck was in the Oval Office now.

    Still, the number one rhetorical gaffe thus far was Bill's "against the Iraq War from the beginning..." and  it would take a huge kicking puppy error to top that LIE.

  •  Hell, the Schmuck is so bad, Ford was nearly (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MarkC, highacidity

    sainted when he passed on....

  •  Obama's clearly a "Morning in America guy" (5+ / 0-)

    He's clearly borrowed his overarching "optimism" theme from the likes of Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton.

    On one level its smart politics in trying to appeal to moderates and independents for a general election.

    But its bullshit to argue that it was something other than an a political pander to deluded moderates.

    The problem is, none of our leaders should be in the business of propagating the Reagan myth -- that Reagan was somehow "in touch" with the American people.

    In a reality-based community, the expectation is that any such invocation will at least be qualified by pointing out the incredible damage he did to our country.  So go figure people are appalled...

    For the record, we still have more than enough petroleum to trigger runaway greenhouse effects before the stuff runs out for good.

    by Minerva on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 06:26:12 AM PDT

    •  Thoughtful comment (0+ / 0-)

      Thanks. Your explanation is the most reasonable one I've seen. And my diary is pointing out he is not endorsing Reagan's policies, and it seems like we both agree on that.

      I invite you to listen to the interview (link in diary). I think you might change your mind about the need for a qualification. It was a discussion of electoral politics, and as such it was simply not about policy. He doesn't blame Reagan and doesn't praise Kennedy -- he's just discussing under what electoral conditions it is possible to be a paradigm-changing president. I mean, I can imagine situations where, if you say "Dracula" you cross yourself afterwards. But if you're discussing sales figures for Bram Stoker's book, you might say Dracula without doing so?

      "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

      by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 06:52:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Times are different, right is weak (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MarkC, Theghostofkarlafayetucker

    What he seems to be implying is that the opportunity exists to change the course in a major way.
    People are sick of the school yard politics, and most are blaming the right for it
    There is a lack of enthusiasm for all things Washington
    A positive message of individual contribution to global community that works for everybody can sweep up all those disillusioned souls

    Bill Clinton did not have this big opportunity, because he was picked at a time of relative optimism, end of the cold war etc
    Yes the economy was down, but it was already recovering when he got into office
    Politicians could not offer anything better over their rivals, hence the scandal politics to gain traction over them
    Some were even saying that presidents don't matter?

    What Barack is saying is that he is not the singular figure that has created this groundswell. There is a need, he is only fulfilling it.
    People really want to believe in their government again

  •  I would like to know what he really means by (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MarkC, lanikai, phoenixdreamz

    I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating.

    Salo has cited sections from Obama's Audacity of Hope book where he sounds like a good DLC-style, Washington Monthly New Democrat who sincerely applauded Reagan's  "cutting the fat." The sleazy (literally) way he elides from undefined "excesses" (sex-drugs-rock 'n roll? fair housing? environmentalism? feminism? - just what is he alluding to? maybe he should just say "welfare queens" like Mickey Kaus would) over into supposed concern about government accountability is highly suspect. White males very much supported government and government programs for decades until 1965 when the civil rights acts had become law - as has been obvious over the past 8 years, much of popular discontent with government spending has more to do with who's getting the patronage than anything else. Obama is just a politician after all, and if he wants at this stage of American history to pander to Reagan Democrats by honoring their excuses for the inexcusable, well that's all too familiar. But excuse me if I find him to be no more impressive or demonstrating integrity than any other political hack. He reminds me more and more of the least admirable qualities of Bill Clinton, but apparently something like that is all we are to be allowed.

    Then let us learn our range: we are something but we are not everything - Pascal

    by jlb1972 on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 06:39:10 AM PDT

    •  Yes, a pander bear (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jlb1972

      You're right that the tone of the whole interview has a centrist "pander bear" tone. It is with the staff of the Reno Gazette-Journal which serves a conservative state, and he is trying to get their editorial support.

      I don't like this side of Obama either (although I have yet to see a 10%+ nominee who doesn't have a similar side). But I'm just objecting to the deliberate decontextualizing of this particular statement as an endorsement of Reagan's policies. That's clearly not true given the tape.

      "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

      by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 06:58:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Best loved Prez. was Eisenhower, because he (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MarkC

        was laissez faire, however his sage advise re: the military/industrial complex was completely ignored.

        The "ship of state" was hijacked post 9/11, so we can easily point to the current excesses.  

        A complete reversal of course is necessary, in the "worldwide opinion", an admission that the party elders/heirarchy are responsible for getting us to this point and time.

        A generational change is necessary, younger experiences not as tied to K street business as usual.

      •  As I like to say about Nancy Pelosi, (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MarkC, lanikai

        I do believe that in a better world she would do better things. Obama may turn out to be quite good enough even by my standards, but right now I can't tell that at all and that's my real problem. The Clintons have disgusted me recently with their attempt to isolate Obama as a specifically "black candidate" but this, along with Obama's Wall Street shout-out on Social Security (playing to the disinformation about SSI fed to many young people), has really put me off Obama for now. I am genuinely wondering whether Obama or Hillary, even with the pressure of current reality, could defeat McCain. A backroom deal leading to a McCain/Huckabee ticket (don't laugh - I think it's entirely possible) could sweep all before it. In other words, if McCain is the GOP nominee the independents and Reagan Democrats may well be counterproductive for the Dems to pursue, now or then.

        Then let us learn our range: we are something but we are not everything - Pascal

        by jlb1972 on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 07:17:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  where exactlt does Obama (0+ / 0-)

    disagree with a any specific Reagan policy?

    Show me.

    "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

    by Salo on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 07:15:29 AM PDT

    •  Actions speak louder than a word (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pegasus

      This is what I don't understand, Salo. Obama has a 90% liberal rating from ADA. Why, exactly, is that inadmissible? It seems to me that what a candidate did is a better guide than what a candidate says, anyway.

      He's been a liberal all his life, has worked for and voted for all the the kinds of reforms that repudiate the shallow free-market policies of Reagan and his handlers. So does he have to draw this distinction in every reference to Reagan?

      Please listen to the interview (link in diary) and see if you think that any of his policy positions sound like Reagan's.

      "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

      by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 07:34:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've read. (0+ / 0-)

        what he plans to do.

        Abandon the defense of the New Deal (let you guess what that means), and embrace globalization--people will be on their Tod.

        "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

        by Salo on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:38:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Where does he specifically say (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MarkC

      he no longer beats his wife?

      GMAFB (that's "give me a fucking break", which I'm writing so often these days that I need an acronym).

      •  pg 157-158 (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jlb1972

        Of his book. In his opinion Reagan correctly trimmed the fat of the liberal state.

        "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

        by Salo on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:39:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You really do need to get that diaried. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          MarkC

          Since Obama is such a closet Reaganomics guy, you need to get that shit to the rec list post-haste.  Time's a-wastin'!

          Of course, if you don't think you can defend the position against the mass debunking that would surely happen... I guess you should just keep trolling around random Obama diaries trying to pick up traction with it.  Your call, ace.

          •  I may well do so. (0+ / 0-)

            He volunterily accepts the need for what Reagan did with the Budget.

            "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

            by Salo on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 10:24:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  His advisors invite the comparison. (0+ / 0-)

            "Now, it is blasphemy for Democrats," Obama pollster Cornell Belcher said of Reagan, "but that hope and optimism that was Ronald Reagan" allowed him to "transcend" ideological divisions within his own party and the general electorate.

            That's from the top and not a poorly thought out comment.

            "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

            by Salo on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 10:36:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Just Another Obama Right-Wing Talking Point... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jlb1972

    Nothing more...move along...

    But, in the context of all of his other right-wing talking points, don't you think exhuming Reagan's corpse is sort of alarming? I mean, after all, how many certifiably insane moronic Democrats think you can RUN on a right-wing talking point campaign and then GOVERN as a progressive?

    You can't.

    And, he won't.

    Correntewire has the goods on Obama:

    Bush Latte: Obama keeps moving right, cites Reagan's "optimism" and "clarity"
    Submitted by lambert on Thu, 2008-01-17 00:36.

    Wouldn’t it be simpler for Obama just to run on the Republican ticket? They really need a decent candidate over there, and I think Obama is just as adept and far more eloquent than Romney, has better hair, a better baritone—and he doesn’t have the funny underwear thing the Mittster has, either. I’d call it a win-win situation.

    I think, at this point, we can forget about the biography, and the position papers, and the oratory, stop listening to the music, and start listening to the lyrics. First came Obama’s infamous dogwhistle to the Village that put Social Security in play, a right wing talking point. Then there was calling unions "special interests", a right wing talking point. Then there was tax cuts as a panacea, a right wing talking point. Meanwhile, the Oborg consistently leverage right wing talking points like "trial lawyers" to trash Edwards, not to mention Hillary hatred, all the while explaining what Obama "really means," and airily denying it all. Then there was the trashing of Gore. And finally we’ve got the infamous Florida brochure, where Obama encourages Republicans to become "Obamacrats" just for one day to vote for him, and then re-up as Republicans again. (Way to party build, there, guy.) Obama is a highly skilled politician and a Harvard-schooled lawyer. None of this can be accidental.*

    And now this:

    The Politico’s Ben Smith:

    Obama, in his interview with the Reno Gazette-Journal’s editorial board, made the case that his movement is as much about a national moment as about him as a "singular" individual, and he drew a rather odd analogy for a Democrat: Ronald Reagan.

    Submitted by lambert on Thu, 2008-01-17 00:36.

    http://www.correntewire.com/...

    "One good test as to whether folks are doing interesting work is, Can they surprise me? And..when I read Daily Kos, it doesn't surprise me...." ~~Barack Obama

    by SignalSuzie on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 07:27:34 AM PDT

    •  Try writing your own comment (0+ / 0-)

      Reagan was elected president twice.

      Is that a right-wing talking point? I ask because it is making a statement about a Republican, not endorsing the policies of a Republican. This diary is about how Obama was speaking about the way that Reagan's popularity made it possible for him to change the paradigm. Not endorsing Reagan's programs -- which I've linked to his criticism of elsewhere.

      Then he says Kennedy did so, too, in the other direction.

      How can that be a right-wing talking point?

      You've pasted a comment in by another person on another site, and not addressed the central topic of the diary.

      "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

      by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 07:40:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Breaking! Zombie Reagan endorses Obama! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MarkC, Cassandra77

    Braiiiiiiiins... Braiiiiiins...

    "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

    by Niniane on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 07:32:17 AM PDT

  •  I do not want a populace (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Cassandra77, lanikai, jlb1972

    so blinded, so entranced, so ready to follow anyone anywhere on either side.  

    Sorry, I do not find that kind of cult worshipping of a figure healthy for any side of the aisle.  It happens quite often on the right because they have a predisposition to authoritarianism.  I happens less on the left because, thankfully, most on the left understand we are electing a representative, not a cult leader.

    While over the years, in some circumstances people needed that cult time of leadership for specific reasons, it is better when they are not in government.

    For example MLK was that kind of leader, but he was not  government.  He was in fact the challenger to government and he was needed to lead people AGAINST the centuries of injustice, against the status quo.  That kind of powerful leadership is a good thing when the people being led are the powerless in the face of the power of government.  Ghandi was that kind of leader and was needed also for similar reasons. But as a government leader.  No.  Not a good thing.  Too much power to abuse.

    Let's get back to remembering what we are doing.  We are electing a president within a democracy.  We should be wanting this person to be good a representation, at negotiating, at understanding the world with whom she/he as to deal constantly. We should never want this person to have a lot of power.
    This last seven years is a reminder of why.

    I was a kid of 14 when JFK was running.  I remember the hoopla, the excitement.  I also remember that people were deciding something so important based on some very shallow reasoning.  Some liked his youth and his looks.  Some, his religion.  I remember being told all that mattered was that he was catholic.
    Blind following was expected of many.  I remember even as a kid being fortunate enough to have people in my catholic family challenging the notion that his religion and his looks mattered.  
    Whether or not Kennedy would have been a great president is not known.  Some think he was because he "faced down" Krushev.  As a kid then I was easily caught up in the fear mongering, the propaganda and I never quite understood it.  I do know boys in my school were told to be prepared to go to war over the Cuban Missile Crisis.  I never knew as a kid the political reasons.  I knew the simplistic America = Good, USSR= Evil.  

    I believe that meme, that simplicity is what got Ronald Reagan elected; that blind, unthinking belief that America = Good and the rest of the world is evil, was Reagan's style.  His ability to communicate got a lot of people willing to buy the same lies and spin from three decades earlier, from the duck and cover 1950s.  People were willing to NOT THINK AT ALL because of Reagan's ability to communicate.  It's 2007.  I do not want nor do I need a person elected based on the ability to charm and mesmerize on either side.  Sorry, there is nothing about that notion that impresses me.  

    •  The media narrative (0+ / 0-)

      This is a great comment -- I fear demagogues, too. In fact, while I'm leaning Obama (and threads like the one this morning are pushing me further in that direction) I do ask myself whether I know enough about him.

      But I've looked at his Senate votes and read about his political development in Illinois, and I really do like what I see so far. He does have a record, and it is very liberal. He cares deeply about the Constitution (witness all his "present" votes on bills he thought wouldn't survive a court test), opposed the war when that was unpopular, and is strong on civil rights. There are other areas like women's rights and campaign financing where I am not overwhelmed by his record or rhetoric.

      The thing is that what you're talking about is a frame that is not his. It is the only way the media can process his candidacy, and perhaps it is based on the sort of populist phenomenon you are talking about. True, he's now playing to that, because he's competing with Clinton in the primary.

      But here's the thing. We don't see Clinton and we don't see Obama on the campaign trail (not sure about Edwards). But that doesn't mean they are like Chance from "Being There." They are not ciphers, and this meme was an answer to a question about mandates and the election. It was descriptive political science inside baseball wonkery -- not a normative vision for how things should work.

      "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

      by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 07:53:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly right (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MarkC, jlb1972

        and sadly too many buy into the "media narratives".  

        I can discuss very well with someone like you, debate in fact, whether or not the "frame" fits, whether or not Obama's words about Reagan reinforces that media frame or rejects it.

        But I agree there is a lot of framing going on.  I started out fairly equal on all three frontrunners plus Dennis Kuncinich.  I knew immediately that Dennis would not have a chance in our visual world. So Edwards was winning me first, followed closely by Hillary and followed then by Obama.

        I have read all their records, and have disagreements with all three.  I believe all of them are progressive and liberals at their core.  
        Iraq is not my first issue for this reason; the mess was made by Bush and the neocons.   While Edwards and Clinton both voted to support the president, I do not believe they were voting for war.  I believe they were representing the same frustration, the same conflicts because of the lies being fed to us, as 70% of the people. I believe Obama would have done the same.  Some will disagree with me, and that is fine.

        I believe all three are close on most issues that are important to me.  Probably the one issue that bothers me the most with Obama is education.  As a teacher with forty years of experience in public schools, education is a HUGE priority for me.   Obama's comments promoting merit pay and vouchers bothered me greatly. I believe he hurt his chances with many teachers when he spoke in Philadelphia at the NEA convention.  That is not to say I would not support him in a general election.  I would wholeheartedly.

        All the other issues for me are extremely close when it comes to all the dems.  I think Obama said it best the other night: All of them have the same goals, but have differences in how to reach those goals.  Don't want to brag but I said the same thing here weeks and weeks ago.

        But the media frame has put me over the top.  The press' attack dog mentality with Hillary Clinton pushed every feminist button I have.  And I have been quite bothered here at how little attention is paid to the blatant sexism.  I have already debated this here many times.  I believe if Matthews or Russert used the same level of nasty racism toward Obama as they have used nasty sexism toward Clinton, this liberal blog would be (rightfully so) outraged.

        Instead here, some agreed with the notion of "women felt sorry for her so....".  Hillary can be called an "Ice Queen" with no repercussions.  Or a cold and calculating witch. No repercussions. These are personal and sexist attacks.   And few here, in my view, get bothered by those things.  That is my perception.

        I enjoyed the intellectual debate on this whole "Reagan and Obama" discussion.  I do think Obama was playing the "appeal to the right" when he said that.  I think any politician who knows what they are doing will reflect positively on Reagan.  The media has framed Reagan as an iconic hero, as some kind of sainted being.  They have done the same with MLK, RFK, JFK.  The whole notion of the fairy tale started in my life back with the JFK "Camelot" deal.    When I think of how Americans were so eager and willing to play that game, I think of how naive and backward we were.  

        I think the media loves these frames. I think, we, the people, in 2007, a time when we should be media savvy, should be careful of the frames and not buy into this nonsense.  I think our tabloid mentality of creating heroes and villains is not good for the political arena.  And I do not believe Obama's words on Reagan were necessarily meant to show he liked Reagan. I give him kudos for being smart enough to use his words carefully. In the end, I do not think those words will totally alienate the base, but in fact will help in a general election.  They all do such things...frame their words carefully enough to not alienate either their base or the center.  It's good strategy.

        Anyway, good discussions.

        •  Thanks (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jlb1972

          I too appreciate being able to really talk about issues here -- DailyKos is not the place it used to be for talking substance.

          I agree with you about almost everything, from Kucinich to instinctively supporting Clinton in the face of media misogyny. As many members of my family keep reminding me, black males got the vote before any females. And I did not know about vouchers (et tu, Barack?)

          I think in the end the war must matter a little more to me, and I just can't forget the Kyl-Leiberman vote. As I try to filter out the "media narratives" and "media bias" though, I do not see even a shred of a reason not to support the eventual Democratic nominee with my heart and soul.

          "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

          by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:36:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Back at you with the thanks (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            MarkC

            Good debate is what I love.  And sadly I have allowed myself to get just as knee jerk at times here as others.  Then I want to kick myself.

            Then I remind myself that yes, I too, am human.  Just like all the posters and all the candidates.

            I hope to have more of these discussions.  And I hope we all remind each other that we need to keep away from putting our choice on pedestals.  They all make mistakes.  It does not make them less viable.  In fact, for me, it makes them more viable.   And we need to resist the media narratives.

  •  Obama's assessment was wrong (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lanikai

    reagan gave people BIG tax cut--a real tough sell!  he spent trillions on war industry--another tough sell!  NOT.

    I don't think Obama was praising reagan, but his 'change' analogy was not analogous.  reagan just told people what they wanted to hear.

    Is THAT the kind of change Obama is promising?

    ..to be healed/the broken thing must come apart/then be rejoined.

    by Zacapoet on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:02:56 AM PDT

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