Clinton Victory Post (for Detractors)

[Update: if a moderator wants me to delete this, or thinks it's inappropriate, please leave a comment to that effect. It's almost kind of a sadsack parody of bink's diary, so if it pisses people off I'd rather not.]

I realize this is really sour grapes. But I knew Hillary would win, so it's not as bad as it could've been. And, to be honest, it's just the Yin to bink's diary's yang, so of COURSE it's gonna be bitter. So Hillary supporters should just deal with it. We won't post in the celebration diary, don't post in this one. And no, I'm not one of those, "I won't vote for Hillary" people. I would.

Well, Clinton won Nevada with about the spread most polls predicted. This is displeasing to most Obama and Edwards supporters. And it doesn't become any less depressing when one looks down the road to November, realizes Hillary will probably be our nominee, and you feel all those downticket gains melting away.

Goodbye yellow brick majority!

Can we still do it?

There's always South Carolina!

The biggest hope Obama and Edwards supporters have at the moment is people really start to realize that Hillary might be our nominee. We can only hope the consequences of voting for Hillary -- ie: she's our nominee -- start to sink in.

More NAFTA.

More misguided welfare reform.

More poll-watching policymakers.

We've seen this movie before. The loss of the Congress. The drift to the right. Here we go again.

Here's a sneak preview of the ads we'll be seeing for the next 10 months.

Whatever. VOTE DEMOCRAT IN NOVEMBER!

•  In my opinion

  anyone banking on some sort of collective Hillary-hatred to swing the primary is engaging in some serious wishful thinking. Outside of bloggers, I haven't really seen a lot of evidence that Democrats particularly dislike the woman.

  by AnnArborBlue on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:05:37 PM PDT

  •  Yay

    Go 51%.

    by bumblebums on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:07:38 PM PDT

    •  I'm neither a supporter not a detractor

      of Senator Clinton.

      I'm just sayin', I think the antipathy toward her is pretty seriously overstated in the world of blogs.

      by AnnArborBlue on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:10:23 PM PDT

      •  I'm not relishing the experience

        of watching the Democratic party follow Hillary over a cliff.

        If the average Democratic voter had any capacity to think about what's at play, they might not be so eager to support her candidacy.

        by bumblebums on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:13:43 PM PDT

        •  I guess I don't see

          why Hillary Clinton getting the nomination would lead the Party over the cliff.

          by AnnArborBlue on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:20:17 PM PDT

      •  I will say this, though

        I do think people are overstating how polarizing she really is, and are probably underestimating some of her appeal among moderates.

        I mean, yeah, she may get the Republican base more fired up than they would be otherwise, but that's not remotely enough to get a Republican elected.

        by AnnArborBlue on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:14:34 PM PDT

        •  It isn't?

          Let's go back and take a look at the results from 2000 and 2004. We had - Republicans energized and Independents split just about 50/50. In the end, Republicans won both - sure, not by a lot, but they won.

          If we don't have a candidate who appeals to Independents, and we don't pull in new voters, we lose.

          by Elise on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:41:02 PM PDT

  •  You're right about that.

    The reality check is needed.

    What I'm more worried about is Clinton's crossover appeal. She's going to need support from independents and a moderate Republican here or there to win some crucial states.

    by droogie6655321 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:08:01 PM PDT

    •  We've had that ol' reality check

      after all three caucuses/primary now. On to the next one, only 47 states more to go.  It's a long campaign.

      by Rolfyboy6 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:15:29 PM PDT

      •  Time for a beer.

        Or something stronger. Heroin, maybe.

        by revbludge on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:16:32 PM PDT

        •  asdf

          PCP got me through Iowa.

          by droogie6655321 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:17:37 PM PDT

          •  You'll be a vegetable by March

            Do not use that stuff. Period.

            by Rolfyboy6 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:22:15 PM PDT

            •  Easy, fella

              It's not like I'm training for the Olympics.

              (jokes all around)

              by droogie6655321 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:27:36 PM PDT

              •  Repeat

                Everybody who I knew who used that stuff is now dead, either from actual drug use or from diminished capacity followed by disease.

                by Rolfyboy6 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:32:22 PM PDT

            •  I'll be a vegetable by March

              with or without drugs. I'm two-thirds a patty-pan squash right now.

              by revbludge on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:28:43 PM PDT

              •  Shoot you should go for something trendy

                Radicchio or white asparagus or heritage tomatoes.

                by Rolfyboy6 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 04:01:08 PM PDT

                •  I am what I am. n/t

                  by revbludge on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 05:38:14 PM PDT

    •  Support she will never get -

      Independents do not like her. There are a lot of Republicans I know who would vote for Obama if he were the nominee - over the Republican. They will come out specifically to vote against Hillary if she wins the Dem nomination.

      by Elise on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:23:55 PM PDT

      •  I'm afraid of that

        Obama's crossover appeal has been proven, IMO. Clinton's not so much.

        by droogie6655321 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:28:21 PM PDT

        •  Exactly.

          We will lose. I'm serious. I have no doubts about this. Not only will we lose, but we lose the opportunity to build our party up for the next generation in the process. If we lose here...we lose for the next 50 years easily...because after this...the courts won't matter anymore. They'll have been long lost.

          by Elise on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:29:58 PM PDT

          •  Well...

            I thought for sure Clinton would burn out in the primary like Joe Lieberman did in '04. But she seems to have all but won it now, or at least have a tremendous advantage.

            What else could we credit the victory to if not her campaigning skills? Wouldn't these same skills make her a contender (at least) in the general?

            by droogie6655321 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:31:54 PM PDT

            •  She's hardly all but won it.

              Obama gets a nice share of delegates here. He's still doing very well in the race.

              South Carolina is coming up - we'll see what happens there.

              Seriously though, I'm writing a letter to Dean and telling him that if he doesn't put pressure on the Clinton campaign to stop with the Rovian bullshit, I'm leaving this party and never donating to it again. Maybe others will do something similar and we can get an actual fair race here. I'm not holding my breath.

              As for her victory?

              I attribute that to robo-calls. I attribute that to her lying about his record in mailings, etc. She's had upwards of 25% of a lead in NV for at least 6 months. She had solid name recognition over his. And she had Bill running around telling people that a vote for her is a vote for him. Apparently people want to go back to the divisive times of the 90s as opposed to the divisive times of now, or as opposed to changing that system altogether.

              I know one thing - I have lost all respect for Hillary and for Bill in these last 3 months, and I've been a Democrat since birth.

              Apparently the status quo will do ANYTHING to stay in power. I'm not shocked, I'm just disgusted. If Democrats don't reject this - we all lose, and not just in 2008.

              by Elise on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:38:39 PM PDT

              •  Hillary on the ballot

                will take the wind out of many, many critical sails.

                The Clintons have had their 8 years in the White House, last century. We need to move forward, and not go back the same shit we live through in the nineties.

                by bumblebums on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:42:36 PM PDT

                •  asdf

                  It's a different time than it was in the '90s. There's more support for universal health care, I'd bet. It would be a huge, history-making change if Clinton could accomplish that.

                  If she did, it wouldn't be a bad first term. (just hypotheticatin' here)

                  by droogie6655321 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:44:26 PM PDT

                  •  Except Hillary hasn't changed...

                    she didn't move health care because she refused to negotiate. For 4 months I've asked her supporters here to name me a bill that she's moved with her name on it from start to the President's desk. NO ONE has ever answered me. I've found one bill on Thomas - a bill to rename a post office in northern NY. So...where is the experience moving legislation? I don't see it!

                    In addition, her health care plan is basically corporate welfare for insurance companies. It forces us to sign up for health care - it does nothing to ensure that it's GOOD health care.

                    by Elise on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:51:07 PM PDT

                    •  why now.. thats the ROMNEY plan

                      Isn't this what he did in Massachusetts?

                      Force everyone to pay for crap insurance, JUST so that it LOOKS like everyone is covered.

                      THAT is not health care reform. Not even close.

                      by mytribe on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 04:05:39 PM PDT

                      •  Yep.

                        That's Hillary's plan! Then she can tell everyone that everyone is covered - doesn't matter whether it's good coverage, or whether there are enough doctors to actually see people.

                        by Elise on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 04:15:52 PM PDT

              •  asdf

                I expect Obama to take SC. He'd better at least.

                But I should relax. As someone else around here put it, primaries are more about margins than they are about wins and losses.

                Pardon my ignorance, but this is only the second primary season that I have followed thoroughly.

                by droogie6655321 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:42:47 PM PDT

  •  I agree!

    I agree. The polls don't show that. Hillary-hate isn't a factor (among Dems). It is a factor among Republicans, and it may motivate them more than Obama would.

    Hillary-tepidity is the bigger problem in the Democratic Party.

    by Addison on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:08:06 PM PDT

  •  The influence of bloggers is overrated, IMO

    I also think that dKos diarists overestimate how much they represent the American electorate.

    The American electorate is much smarter than the average diarist, and that's saying a lot.

    by Plutonium Page on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:08:37 PM PDT

    •  asdf

      George W. Bush 2000
      George W. Bush 2004

      by revbludge on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:10:27 PM PDT

      •  That was my point

        Read it again ;-)

        by Plutonium Page on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:12:39 PM PDT

        •  about the IQ of the electorate?

          just askin'

          by revbludge on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:17:28 PM PDT

    •  Oh

      I don't think there's any question that Kossacks overstate their influence. Otherwise John Edwards would be cruising toward the nom.

      We've got a lot of really, really smart people here though.

      by AnnArborBlue on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:11:30 PM PDT

      •  Yeah, true

        The stupid just seems to shine through more.

        by Plutonium Page on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:13:16 PM PDT

        •  

          by Marcus Tullius on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:17:00 PM PDT

        •  I won't dispute that

          I can't count the number of times it's made me step away from this site for a while. And I definitely feel like I spend more time arguing with people around here than I used to. But that's gotta just be a function of the size of this place, right?

          by AnnArborBlue on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:18:01 PM PDT

    •  ex@ctly

      by Runs With Scissors on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:14:23 PM PDT

    •  i represent

      all thinking americans. me. personally.

      by Turkana on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:16:02 PM PDT

      •  So you are 51% female?

        Demographically yours:  Turkana.

        by Rolfyboy6 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:17:21 PM PDT

        •  i'm

          a metrosexual!

          by Turkana on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:18:25 PM PDT

          •  Hairspray doesn't count.

            by Rolfyboy6 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:19:06 PM PDT

            •  john waters

              would beg to differ!

              by Turkana on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:21:03 PM PDT

              •  I'm beginning to get a picture of you

                It isn't pretty.

                by Rolfyboy6 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:27:28 PM PDT

  •  Neither have I

    I just don't see it. The only place I see it is in people who would never vote for a Democrat anyway or don't vote at all.

    by BoiseBlue on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:09:00 PM PDT

    •  I have

      in people I talk to who seem to like Edwards and Obama but would never vote for Hillary.  Of course this isn't a representative sample, but by nominating Hillary we will be losing a lot of independents and even Republicans who were willing to cross over after 8 years of lies.

      by lothar779 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:22:48 PM PDT

  •  Go Blue!

    by Pumpkinlove on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:26:50 PM PDT

  •  They love Hillary because they

    falsely think she is a liberal, just as the falsely beleived in wmd.

    I think the netroots are a waste of time and progressives should be engaging in civil disobedience.

    Dean's a goner people.  So is the Democratic Majority in Congress.  

    Jump ship now.

    Protest.  MLK was a protester not a partisan like Kos.

    by bucadibeppo on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:28:05 PM PDT

•  Amen. (n/t)

  by assyrian64 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:06:42 PM PDT

•  What a shame!

  The democrats finally have some real support because of the sheer lunacy of Bush's policies, and they are going to nominate Hillary Clinton so she can lose the general election to the worst Republican field in decades?????

  What are the Nevadans smoking?

  by lothar779 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:07:22 PM PDT

•  Democrats might succeed in uniting

  the party in November, though.

  The Republican party, I mean. Against Clinton.

  by indiemcemopants on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:08:29 PM PDT

•  I will vote for whomever is the nominee,

  but will be really, really, de-energized if it is Clinton. And I think her candidacy in the general will hurt the downticket races in red-turning blue states that we might otherwise have a shot at.

  Remember the 1992 Democratic National Convention, and Gore's big speech with the refrain, "It's Time. For Them. To Go."

  It's time for the Clintons to go. They had eight years in which to drag the Democratic party to the right for short-term gains and long-term losses. It's Time. For Them. To Go.

  by revbludge on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:08:34 PM PDT

  •  I hear this a lot

    But, what if it's Hllary against Mitt, Huckabee or Thompson?  That would energize the shit out of me.

    by BoiseBlue on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:18:20 PM PDT

    •  They have no chance.

      None. But if it looks like a horse race I suppose I will bestir myself. However, it will be very hard to work for a person who defends Joe Lieberman for supporting McCain. It's really time for the Clintons to be retired--they are not the future of the Democratic Party.

      by revbludge on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:23:03 PM PDT

•  I don't have any sour grapes to bring, but

  you get a tip, same as the celebration diary.

  This isn't over yet.

  by Marcus Tullius on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:10:11 PM PDT

  •  Wait a tic.

    I do have some sour grapes to offer.

    Apparently, Team HRC stole the election.

    Details here.

    by Marcus Tullius on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:28:50 PM PDT

•  The path to glory

  is lined with the valor of propinquity, while humility welcomes the abstemious into the bosom of temperance.  Or something.

  by Bob Love on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:10:36 PM PDT

  •  Asdf...

    The path to glory is lined with the valor of propinquity, while humility welcomes the abstemious into the bosom of temperance.

    What's that about temperance? 'Cause I need a drink.

    by assyrian64 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:13:46 PM PDT

    •  Hey, theys just words.

      I'll drink to temperance any day.

      by Bob Love on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:42:15 PM PDT

  •  The path of the righteous man

    is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will...etc.

    by revbludge on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:14:15 PM PDT

    •  Is this the one about eating shrimp?

      of the one that ends up with 500 Phillistine foreskins?

      by Bob Love on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:43:25 PM PDT

•  You hit it on the head

  I think Obama will win South Carolina, but if he doesn't win California, it's effectively over.

  I've been predicting the two legacies would win, Clinton and Romney, from the beginning.  I still think so.

  by Paleo on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:10:46 PM PDT

  •  The two legacies?

    or the two with the most cash and the most media bias?  It's sickening to know that the moneyed interests always win.

    by lothar779 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:12:08 PM PDT

•  Sigh. I will vote for her.

  But the prospect of 8 more years of the Clintons fills my heart with sadness.  Not because I particularly dislike her. But because I feel the chance for something better slipping away, to be replaced by 8 more years of petty scandals, of feinting left and going center-right, of Mark Penn (ugh), of bullshit boomer battles over Woodstock (Sorry, I know we're not supposed to say that here, but since that diary mocking Gen X and Y for liking Obama made the rec list, fuck it.). I hate it. That kind of politics feels so completely disconnected from my life and everything I care about.

  by brklyngrl on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:14:11 PM PDT

  •  Gen X response

    i am a cusper -- born in 1964; and i have nothing but disdain for Boomers ... i proudly call myself a GenX'er ...

    and as a Gen X'er -- i can see that an HRC nomination will result in a Republican in the white house -- no matter who wins!

    by josephk on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:22:18 PM PDT

    •  1964? You're a boomer.

      i have nothing but disdain for Boomers

      Sounds self-hating to me.

      by revbludge on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:25:14 PM PDT

•  Hillary will be the nominee.

  So, in November it will be Hillary versus Romney or, perhaps, Hillary versus McCain.
  What I'm learning (perhaps I'm wrong) from these primaries is that the bulk of American voters are conservative/centrists. More so when it's not just Dems but also Repubs.
  If this is indeed the case, I see either Romney or McCain comfortably beating Hillary in the general.

  by Lepanto on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:20:03 PM PDT

•  What FUCKING Experience

  coming out of the exit/entrance polls -- whatever! ... is this idea that HRC gets the benefit of those looking for experience

  i'm sorry -- she won 2 elections in which she vastly outspent her opponents

  i think Obama prolly needs to start calling her out on this claim of experience -- because from where i sit -- the way she is touting 35 years of experience -- is absolute bullshit ...

  by josephk on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:25:41 PM PDT

  •  How does she get 35 years?

    Even if you count the White House, that's

    8 + 8 in the Senate = 16?

    She's not counting First Lady of Arkansas too, is she?

    Hell, I lived in Arkansas for 13 years. Does that count as experience?

    by Oothoon on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:42:10 PM PDT

    •  i think it is 35 years as a bullshit artist...

      by james risser on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:55:01 PM PDT

•  I'm not surprised by her win.

  Shit...a few weeks ago she was up by 25% in NV. I think Obama did pretty well considering that.

  I do think things look really bad for Edwards at this point. I wonder what he'll do about that.

  In the end, if we don't nominate Obama then I think we lose in November. Hillary will only motivate Republicans to come out against her. Independents don't like her enough to make up any difference. There are Democrats that won't vote for her.

  I've said this for a week or so now, and I'm dead serious. I will go and register as an Independent if this party rewards her disgusting Rovian tactics with the nomination. I will not be a part of a party that has no ethics. I really won't. And that makes me sad, but whatever. Hillary's tactics here make me sick. I'd rather be sad than feel sick for being a part of what she's doing.

  by Elise on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:28:47 PM PDT

•  In so far as I can tell...

  ...approximately 12,000 caucused for the Democrats today in Nevada.

  12,000. In a state with 2.5 million people.

  Today's vote was hardly representative of Nevada, much less the country.

  by turnover on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:28:52 PM PDT

  •  That's bad

    Why so low?

    by droogie6655321 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:45:53 PM PDT

  •  that's the delegate count

    reports are over 107,000 people turned out to caucus...for some weird reason they're reporting  delegates ...thus the 12,000 number.

    Good news for Dems with a huge turnout, Repubs, not so good...only 33,000.

    by Fredly on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:46:27 PM PDT

    •  107,000 for Dems

      meant to say....

      by Fredly on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:47:17 PM PDT

•  Like a record that skips...

  America seems once again determined to repeat the past...

  Bush
  Clinton
  Bush
  Clinton

  Damn those boomers LOVE their nostalgia.

  The prospects for the election in November now seems ALOT less interesting.
  Oh well, maybe those few magical days after Iowa will finally make my generation take politics seriously.

  by ArkansasLiberal on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:29:58 PM PDT

•  "i lie about senator obama; my wife lies about...

  ...senator obama; hell, i even got john edwards to lie about senator obama...  now, all i ask is that each of you continue to lie about my wife and me for just another year of your lives...that ought to do it...you all know how to do that because you all did it for yours truly for eight or ten years!  what is another???  so, suck it up and be good liars for the mrs and me, okay?  thank you.  oh, and remember: i feel your pain"

  

  by james risser on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:36:12 PM PDT

•  The coming ratification of the Iraq War

  If Clinton is nominated, everyone who opposed the Iraq War will be sent a powerful message:

  Shut up.

  The Democatic Party will be ratifying, six years after the fact, the vote to authorize the war and the people like Clinton who supported that decision.

  If a candidate cannot be held accountable for supporting the worst and bloodiest foreign policy blunder of my generation, by Democratic Party voters, I assume future politicians will learn the lesson.  Support wars, even stupid ones, because it's good for your career.

  We'll be left with a Democratic candidate who supported the war and a Republican candidate who REALLY supported the war.  Oh, joy.

  I'm not in the mood for coming up with excuses for Clinton.  I'll vote for her, without the slightest bit of enthusiasm, unless she starts tacking right on foreign policy once the primaries are done.

  It's not good enough to have the right enemies.

  by bear88 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 02:43:33 PM PDT