Hillary, McCain and the 100 Years War

I'm not going to vote, in the general election, for Hillary Clinton. The only chance Democrats have of taking the Rocky Mountain States is Obama. They like him up here. If Hillary is the nominee, she'll lose Wyoming 64 to 31 so my not voting for her won't make any difference. Not in Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado or Utah.

Now, I won't vote Republican, I just won't place a vote for president if Hillary Clinton is the nominee. I'll support Democrats downticket in my state and others. I'll put all the money allowed into Gary Trauner's race. But still, there have been people reacting to my refusing to vote for Hillary (and to others who've said the same thing), by asking one question:

"Do you realize McCain wants to keep us in Iraq for 100 years?"

I realize he's said that.

I don't care who wants to be in Iraq for how long, even if they're elected. We. Won't. Be.

McCain played a hell of a gamble with that hundred years crap. He's betting,

1. That the surge really worked.

2. That it will keep on working until at least election day in November.

That was the whole point of the surge in the first place, to cut per-month-deaths of American soldiers in Iraq by at least half, and to hold that number through the general election. The actual surge, increased numbers of American soldiers, didn't do that. What did that was arming the Sunni elements and paying Sunni leaders shitloads of money. Things calmed down, sure, in a way that is winding the spring of civil war tighter every day.

Iraq is going to explode. If it explodes before November, McCain loses, no question about it. If Bush somehow keeps it from exploding until after November, McCain probably still loses (yes, even against Hillary and without my vote for her). But even if he wins the presidency, Iraq will explode.

It will explode in a civil war that will make the scattered violence of the last couple of years pale in comparison. You can't arm both sides of a conflict in a place like Iraq and expect peace to balance for very long. And when it explodes, we will pull our troops out and we will abondon the largest embassy in the world.... no matter who is president.

I won't vote for Hillary and you can't shove this phony "McCain 100 years" stuff in front of me and expect I'll not call it what it is:

Bullshit.

Give that up. It won't work.

And as for my leaving Kos if I won't agree to vote for Hillary in the general election, no. I won't leave Daily Kos, and there isn't a goddamned thing you can do about that.

•  Peanut Butter and Banana Crepes

  6 crepes
  Peanut Butter
  2 Bananas
  Chocolate Sauce
  Chopped Pecans

  Unroll the crepes. Spread peanut butter in the middle, and place sliced banana pieces on top of the peanut butter.

  Roll-up the crepes and place in a baking dish (a small one).  Cover the whole thing with chocolate sauce and chopped pecans.

  Heat at 300 for 15-20 minutes.

  Its simple, quick and tasty!

  by TomK002 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:18:43 PM PDT

  •  actually, Fishgrease makes some good points

    although he doesn't know much about site administration.

    by nailbender on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:23:15 PM PDT

    •  Site administration?

      What the hell are you talking about? You want me booted for saying I won't vote for Hillary?

      Get me booted.

      Quit crying.

      by Fishgrease on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:26:52 PM PDT

      •  uprated, don't know what the tr was about.

        On the other hand, you apparently didn't believe me when I said you made some good points.  I left the Party myself several months ago after one of the Congressional capitulations.  And I likely won't be able to bring myself to vote for Hillary any more than I could for Elvis Bill (twice).  

        But even if I did want you banned, what difference would that make?  If someone in admin wants to boot either of us, that's their business.  

        chill

        by nailbender on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:57:06 PM PDT

        •  So that was the 'site admin' remark?

          So sorry.

          You're right, I'm too touchy.

          by Fishgrease on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:59:10 PM PDT

        •  And I don't care about the Tr

          I can afford them.

          by Fishgrease on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:59:58 PM PDT

          •  When I called DHinMI a coward

            for his "we don't have the votes" anti-Impeachment argument.  I had my first hidden comment.  It was a bloodbath.

            by nailbender on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:07:49 PM PDT

            •  You were right.

              He was a coward. As he was when he called everyone who wanted to recount votes in NH a loony.

              by Fishgrease on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:13:58 PM PDT

              •  I think what he said about NH

                was something like: "If you think the vote was rigged, pay for a recount."  I agreed with that and sent $50 bucks to Dennis.

                As to his prejudgement about the accuracy of that tabulation, hopefully we'll have news on that real soon; I'm just glad it's happening so it will seem less out-of-the-ordinary next time.

                by nailbender on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:29:42 PM PDT

              •  You're a Chronic Fucking Liar

                Seriously, do you just not know what's the truth, not care, or just make shit up.

                Find one instance where I said that the people who want to recount NH are loony.  One.

                by DHinMI on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 08:26:12 AM PDT

                •  In so many words? Probably not.

                  But insults? Let's face it, you're an asshole. You don't belong on the front page if you can't control your emotions any more than this.

                  --- In your diary of Jan. 9 ---

                  New Hampshire has no touchscreen voting.  None.

                  You find me where any of US said they did. The first sentence of your diary is irrelevant and an insult. YOU hadn't even researched the issues being discussed and completely mischaracterized them.

                  Many folks immediately suspect that any election results they found surprising—and whether they know enough about local and statewide voting patterns to be surprised is always a good question—are most easily explained by malfeasance by the Diebold corporation or exploitation of its machines.

                  Who? "Some People Say"

                  Kucinich himself spoke of possible error, not fraud, not malfeasance. Most of us here on DKos spoke of the possibility of programming or configuration error. No, you're not calling us loony. Worse.

                  But ultimately, there's tremendous arrogance and/or ignorance at play when people assume that Hillary Clinton's victory in Tuesday's New Hampshire primary is or might be explained by election fraud.

                  Who? Who suspected fraud or even mentioned it before you did? Couple of idiot Kossacks with UIDs over 120,000? You're fucking losing it!

                  So please, ignore the "Diebold stole the election" garbage.

                  WHAT "Diebold stole the election" garbage? Where?

                  That's your diary. Your comments are even more rude. You want I should look up a couple dozen of those? Your comments read like the fucking Rush Limbaugh show.

                  You're a hot-tempered, insecure asshole. Most of the stuff you write is just downright superb. Excellent. A bit of it is crap. You have to learn to live with that.

                  by Fishgrease on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 01:33:11 PM PDT

                  •  I Wasn't Emotional

                    I think the problem is that what I wrote made you emotional, because what I wrote made you work harder to believe what you are determined to believe, facts be damned.

                    Your comment is nothing other than you looking for something to claim was an insult to you, and when you can't find it, feigning outrage.  Well, if you feel insulted, that's your problem.  Deal with it.  But not by making up shit that I neither said nor implied.  

                    In other words, don't be a fucking liar.  

                    by DHinMI on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:50:32 PM PDT

                    •  Please.

                      Next time, why don't you just write a diary about people burning flags.

                      Goddam flag burners.

                      Where are they? Are they holed up with all the people claiming Diebold fraud in the NH primary?

                      There's no one doing that either. Not my fault you waste front-page scroll by chasing straw men.

                      You are right, however that you never called anyone a loony. My apologies. I was inaccurate and deserved to be called on that.

                      by Fishgrease on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 04:18:09 PM PDT

                    •  Now I've no rating ability.

                      Not saying you did that.

                      That would be petty, arbitrary and vindictive.

                      So there's NOW WAY you did that.

                      I mean, you get a free pass on calling me a "fucking liar" because you've a technical point there. I conceded that and apologized.

                      No way you would be a dick beyond that. Huh?

                      by Fishgrease on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 06:04:51 PM PDT

                      •  It's Apparently Shocking to You...

                        ...to imagine that if you act in a way that causes me to call you a liar, that you may have acted in an obnoxious way somewhere else, which apparently caused someone else to take away your ratings ability.

                        But go ahead, imagine that it was me.  You seem to enjoy the martyr act.

                        by DHinMI on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 06:46:08 PM PDT

                        •  Right

                          (checks script)

                          I guess I'm done here.

                          by Fishgrease on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 06:58:30 PM PDT

                      •  Comments you've rated

                        that might make someone take your ratings:
                        http://www.dailykos.com/...
                        http://www.dailykos.com/...
                        http://www.dailykos.com/...
                        http://www.dailykos.com/...

                        I don't know which one it was, but if that's how you've been rating lately I'm surprised you made it this long.

                        by MissLaura on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 11:35:58 PM PDT

                        •  Okay

                          You've made your point.

                          Your site.

                          You can do what you want.

                          Have a blast.

                          I'm certain you feel wonderful about it.

                          by Fishgrease on Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 12:09:55 AM PDT

•  100 years of Banana Crepes

  I won't vote for Hillary. I'm not a troll, nor am I breaking any DKos rules for saying that.

  You're going to have to get over it.

  by Fishgrease on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:25:00 PM PDT

  •  Not a Troll

    Just an ally of Scalia and Thomas in their plan to take full control of the Supreme Court for the next decade.

    It's great that you're so smug about signing onto that program.

    by absalom2 on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:06:53 PM PDT

    •  Have an oh!

      For calling me an ally of fascist scumbags.

      You know nothing about me.

      Nothing.

      by Fishgrease on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:15:34 PM PDT

      •  It's you who knows nothing.

        Evil presents a united front and can succeed only when good people choose self-interest over community need. You feel better about yourself by not voting for Clinton, but you obtain that warm feeling at the expense of the rest of the country...you are not electing YOUR OWN president, you are electing one for ALL OF US, and that carries an affirmative obligation to do the most good and the least harm. You clearly have no mature understanding of this concept. True you don't deserve a TR, you deserve a smack in the head.

        by PBJ Diddy on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 07:10:11 AM PDT

        •  Hit him! Stone him! Witch! Witch!

          He's not voting for Hillary!

          Some day, you may get an opportunity to smack me in the head.

          I suggest you not do that. Stay with the idle threats from the safety of your keyboard. Or get a show on Fox.

          by Fishgrease on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:26:18 PM PDT

          •  Keyboards aren't safe,

            they're dangerous. They allow idiots like you to imagine themselves sentient. If 550 people in Florida had NOT adopted your insidious and selfish philosophy 8 yrs. ago, we'd have not had Bush -- and Iraq -- to begin with; and yet the hubris lives on like a necrotic fascitis on the body politic. Smile to your everlasting reflection Narcissus...or better yet, do something useful like donate a liver.

            by PBJ Diddy on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 07:53:24 PM PDT

        •  best comment of the day

          absolutely on target.

          by Runs With Scissors on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 07:24:07 PM PDT

    •  In fairness to him

      He lives in a state that is normally crimson red during presidential elections, so while his diary is upsetting fellow Kossacks, I don't think that we can equate him with a troll. Now, if he lived in a swing state then I'm sure he would vote for her despite his reservations.

      by Progressive Moderate on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:50:10 PM PDT

      •  Well, you're right, I would.

        If I was in a swing state, yes. I would vote for Hillary. But you'll find a lot of swing staters on DKos who won't vote for her.

        They're Democrats, too. Progressives. Liberals.

        The presidential election is just that.. an election. One of them -- of many happening that day.

        I don't see how you can call someone a troll because of them not voting on one slot of one ballot of one election!

        by Fishgrease on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 12:32:43 AM PDT

        •  I can understand why but...

          I don't really agree with you on this point in that I would vote in my state for the Democrat, despite it's redness, and despite any dislike I might feel for the candidate.
          I also don't blame you because my disgust with how the mainstream politicians treat ordinary people pisses me off. Makes me obsess. Makes me move out of the country. That bad.
          However, if yoou chose not to vote for Hillary, that's your business. When you choose to brag about it, you set yourself up as a target and have no right to complain about getting smacked around a little.

          by northsylvania on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 02:03:31 AM PDT

          •  Vote for Hillary or we'll smack you around!

            You're not bragging?

            I'll complain all I want.

            You try to be polite and respectful... and then you end with that sentence?

            Fuck off.

            by Fishgrease on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 01:00:43 PM PDT

            •  

              ;-)

              by campskunk on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 01:12:09 PM PDT

•  I can think of a few reasons, besides

  the war, for voting HRC in the general.  Regulatory agency appointments, judicial appointments, the way we're going to have to deal with the economy.

  But I'm not gonna try and convince you, Fish.  At least you'll sit it out, instead of voting McCain.  I'll take what I can get, I guess.

  by Marcus Tullius on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:28:32 PM PDT

  •  Well, I'll say this,

    If it looks like my vote could actually make a difference in the election, I'll hold my nose and vote for her.

    But it won't. Not in Wyoming, and I'm not moving.

    But I understand people who won't vote for her even if it did make a difference. These are liberals. They're progressives. They're Democrats.

    You can't shun them just because they won't vote for Hillary. You named some good reasons for voting for Hillary, Marcus. Liberals who refuse to vote for her have good reasons as well.

    by Fishgrease on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:33:31 PM PDT

    •  I hear you.

      I know where you are coming from, Fish, and again, I'm not gonna try and talk you out of them.  I've never taken your opinion lightly.  I just come to a different conclusion, that's all.

      Looking forward to Trauner winning this one.  I stayed up along time in 06, waiting for results, and pestering the registrar.

      by Marcus Tullius on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:36:40 PM PDT

•  The 100 yrs comment reflects his bent towards

  military solutions, just like his singing "Bomb-bomb-Iran".

  If he is the President we can expect continuation of this "muscular foreign policy".

  We can also expect that he'll keep a lot of Bush appointees in office.  Not so much the visible ones, but the Regency grads we never heard of until Monica.

  There will be no special prosecutor, and maybe the telecoms will finally get their immunity.

  Not saying that Hill or Obama will restore the constitution, but there is clearly a better shot that they might.

  You should not stand by and watch it happen.  I believe a lot of your (and my) negative images of Hill have been part of the highly effective right wing campaign.  It's pretty clear that she is judged more harshly than almost anyone.

  by inHI on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:30:06 PM PDT

  •  what you said

    Unfortunately, the diehard bubble boys and girls in both the HRC and the Obama camps can't see the big picture, that all this pie fighting and concern for personal purity over general reality could lead to 4 more years of Repuke disaster.

    by chingchongchinaman on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:36:20 PM PDT

  •  Okay, I agree.

    Good points. You might convince me. That's possible. It's also possible that Hillary Clinton can't wait to start a war.

    Does anyone you can't convince need to leave Daily Kos? Are we trolls because we won't vote for Hillary?

    You'll find that's a lot of trolls!

    by Fishgrease on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:37:49 PM PDT

    •  Hillary will not go looking for trouble.

      While I don't see her  rolling back a lot of this "unitary" stuff, the media will create a tremendous backlash against everything she does.  

      by inHI on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:34:30 PM PDT

  •  You think there's a better chance Clinton

    will give up the powers of the newly ordaned unitary executive before McCain. I don't. That's exactly why she still defends her vote for the war. She thinks the president should have that discretion. Her husband sent the country to war with out even asking congress.

    by fisheye on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:32:47 PM PDT

  •  If McCain is the nominee, his "Bomb Iran" song...

    Will end up his Howard Dean "scream" moment.
    The turnout and money raising is already two to one in favor of the Democratic Party, and the MSM will air the political ads that are paid for.
    It's all about the money and GOTV, and the republics would like us to hang our heads and forget that.
    The pubs are screwed, and the only way they can win is to fracture the Dems.

    by manwithnoname on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 06:46:49 AM PDT

•  Another point is that she would

  likely lose any state south of MD all the way through to NM and that would be in play. Should add AZ,MT, IA, NE, IN, OH to the list as well. If Bloomberg runs she might not carry CA, PA or OR.

  But I would still cast my vote for her.

  However, it would be a very bloody campaign.

  Whether I would work for her and contribute to her depends on the platform they come up with. I might prefer to contribute all my time and money to local candidates.

  Just a thought why doesn't the Democratic Party ask for suggestions for the platform from the rank and file, rather than just mandating it?

  by shigeru on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:35:15 PM PDT

  •  I think you misjudge OR.

    I'd be very surprised if the Democratic nom doesn't carry the state by a fair margin.  Can't speak to any of the other states.

    by Marcus Tullius on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:38:18 PM PDT

  •  Congress is important.

    I'm going to be fairly monied up this Summer and I intend to contribute a lot... to Democrats. There's some Democrats in Congress who need challenged in their primaries.

    There's plenty of Republicans who need replaced by Republicans. And if Hillary is elected, Dean's strategy is gone gone gone, so now is the time to concentrate on the 50 state plan... before it's gone.

    by Fishgrease on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:43:03 PM PDT

    •  Oh Sweet Jesus!

      There's plenty of Republicans who need replaced by Republicans.

      (banging head on table)

      Of all the places to pull a freudian disaster like that, I have to do it in my own diary.

      I MEANT.... There's plenty of Republicans who need replaced by Democrats.

      by Fishgrease on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 10:51:39 PM PDT

      •  Good catch! n/t

        by pelagicray on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 09:31:34 PM PDT

•  If Hillary is our nominee,

  I will vote for McCain as a protest. This party needs to be taught a lesson.  From Gore in 2000, Kerry in 2004, and now Hillary in 2008, this DLC-triangulating-incrementalist-status quo-poll driven shit has led to nothing but a corporate-driven agenda that ignores progressives and the party's base. I'm sick of it. At least I know where McCain stands.  Hillary, not so much.

  by Prince Georges for Obama on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:04:42 PM PDT

  •  i'm not sure barack would agree with you.

    by rasbobbo on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:09:50 PM PDT

    •  It's not Barack's vote.

      It's mine.

      by Prince Georges for Obama on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:11:49 PM PDT

      •  but unfortunately you've put his name

        in your moniker, so you're sort of speaking for him.

        by rasbobbo on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:35:10 PM PDT

        •  No

          I'm for him.  Doesn't mean he's for my views.

          by Prince Georges for Obama on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:40:34 PM PDT

  •  I respect that.

    I can't vote for McCain, but I respect anyone else doing it, especially for the reasons you gave.

    We're not done for yet. If people nationally could only see what we're seeing here in the normally blood RED mountain states.

    Republicans up here are sick of their choices and a lot of them like Obama. Why? I have no idea. On the other hand, folks up here don't like Hillary. Most of the Democrats don't!

    I really think Obama could take Wyoming. Hillary? Not a chance.

    by Fishgrease on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:12:02 PM PDT

  •  It'll win this time!

    For reals! Now that we have the ultimate triangulator of all, I mean it's a Democratic year anyway, we can't lose!

    by 2ajpuu on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:16:01 PM PDT

    •  And let's punish America and the world by giving

      them 10 years (cause it'll be his Veep, he won't last a full term) more of Rethug rule.  By then everyone will see how right I was before I held my breath until I died!

      Not voting in the race I understand, and it may be a mature - though IMO misguided - choice, but voting for the Rethugs?  Why don't you just go hit yourself repeatedly in the head with a hammer?  It'll have the same effect on the party and be as good for you.

      by chrismorgan on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:34:03 PM PDT

      •  The party needs to learn

        because it's punishing the country by nominating bought and paid for corporate shills that will simply rearrange the deck on the titanic rather than promote real change.

        by Prince Georges for Obama on Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 11:51:02 PM PDT

        •  Who will replace Stevens. And how soon

          will they let them put a cross in the flag?  That, if nothing else, is reason to vote Democratic. Any Democrat running.

          And don't kid yourself that McCain won't appoint Scalito clones.  He sold his soul to those demons long ago.

          by chrismorgan on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 12:03:02 AM PDT

          •  They can put a cross on the flag.

            I'll burn it.

            by Fishgrease on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 12:35:31 AM PDT

            •  Having worked on that case, I can tell you

              that if 1 vote shifts right, the only flag burning you'll be doing will be in prison.

              by chrismorgan on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 01:14:20 AM PDT

              •  Sometimes the left's scare tactics

                are as transparent and silly as the right's.

                Move along. Try to scare someone else.

                by Fishgrease on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 12:56:14 PM PDT

                •  Try informing yourself before you open your mouth

                  The case came out of Texas.  It was a criminal conviction and sentence of incarceration, per what the law of Texas provied, i.e., that burning a US Flag (not any other kind mind you) was ipso facto a criminal offense punishable by inprisonment in jail.  The Texas Court decision was initially 5-4, and could easily have upheld the statute and a "reasonable restriction on speech likely to incite public disorder", which is exactly what the State and right-wingner argued.  

                  Alito and Roberts have both commented in ways indicating they would be open to upholding such a law.  I have no doubt Thomas and Kennedy would do so.  That's 4 of the needed 5.  

                  You willing to bet the Constitution on your prophetic powers?  Pardon me if I'm not.

                  And of course that doesn't consider the right to choice, sexual discrimination laws, labor relation laws, search and seizure law, and a literal host of issues that the right needs only 1 more vote to overturn 40 years of precedent (and in some cases 100 years of precedent) AND which it has consistently been unable to get a majority for at the ballot box and legislature.

                  And btw, since when is the 1st Amendment left or right?  Last I checked it was AMERICAN.

                  by chrismorgan on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 05:05:18 PM PDT

•  It's always entertaining when

  an 8-year old writes a diary. I remember a time when DailyKos was a place to criticize immature half-wits, hysterical fanatics, and hallucinating crazies...suddenly they're the majority here. Plus ce change, plus ce la meme chose.

  by PBJ Diddy on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 07:03:45 AM PDT

  •  Dame it, anyway.

    The revolution's near!  ;)

    by Caldonia on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 01:39:20 PM PDT

  •  Can you be specific?

    What in my diary shows I'm an 8 year-old? What is it you think is immature?

    Or are just trying to insult me?

    How am I a hysterical fanatics? Show WHY I'm amongst the hallucinating crazies!

    Saying it is easy. Show me where I'm wrong.

    by Fishgrease on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 02:44:46 PM PDT