Daily Kos

Beware the Coming of the Green Bubble

Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 02:53:25 PM PDT

It’s been truly sickening to watch, in one decade, the implosion of the Dot Bomb and the housing/credit bubble.  Like so many others, these implosions stop my personal economy dead in its tracks.  I never invested anything in either pipe dream.  I worked hard, saved, and kept my head.  And I have nothing to show for it, since the work I do dries up as soon as I get ahead, and I have to weather the next storm of fiscal idiocy from our great business and political leaders.  (Same thing for the most part.)

In 2002, I gave up trying to find programming work, and went back to school to get a business degree.  I needed it, so it was okay.  Now – hm.  I need programming work, not more student loan debt or more academic fluff icons behind my name.

Business school was interesting.  My small private, supposedly progressive, alma mater – John F. Kennedy University – had started a business incubation program on the coattails of the Dot insanity.  When I got there, of course it was an embarrassment, and was not being replaced with anything.  The new housing bubble was in full swing, but that one was not nearly as open to entry by student types.  You can’t incubate real estate or credit businesses.  They are accoutrements of wealth, not ingenuity or creativity.  Not even the microloan business is all that well suited to bootstrapping on the provider side.

I studied a lot about hydrogen and its role in a renewable energy cycle.  The dean of the business school played devil’s advocate the entire two years, stating repeatedly that the idea "had not entered the mainstream."  I think it had, even then, but it certainly has now.  Besides, what was a "progressive" business school dean doing worrying about the mainstream?

Al Gore last November joined with some powerhouse venture capitalists to help transform the Green Economy.  Wow!  Go Al...right?  Well not so fast.

The company that Gore joined was one of the principal forces behind the dot com bubble.  And they made out like bandits!  How’d they do that, you ask?  Short answer: they knew what was happening, and rode the wave like surfer dudes, while most people (not me – I never bought the hype) crashed and burned.

Actually, the VC’s and their ilk got out at the peak or near it – so it was just before everyone else crashed and burned.

The global economy is all about flows these days.  All the wealth that has been accumulated in the history of the world accrues to the present moment – this would seem to be an obvious fact, but if you know anything at all about the mathematics of growth, it is staggering to realize how much money (in one form or another – today, largely just electronic 1’s and 0’s traded like cash) flows around the world each day.

And it is the enormous amount of wealth in the world, the need to park it somewhere so that it will grow and not stagnate, that drives this cycle of boom and bust.  Well, actually capital markets themselves necessarily include boom and bust as a feature to some extent – they are inevitable.  But my point is that there is more wealth to invest than there are good investment vehicles.

And next up for adoration by the venture capitalists of Dot Bomb fame?  Green Energy.  You may think, we have to recover from this one before worrying about the next one.  But it’s not the case – we’ve got tons of money out there that is looking for refuge from real estate and banking.  It’s going to go directly into the helium tanks.  The Green ones over there.  In Silicon Valley.

Watch out.

Tags: bubble, economy (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 45 comments

  •  Stock tips (10+ / 0-)

    _______________________________
    Healing the universe is an inside job.

    by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 02:54:00 PM PDT

    •  I am not in the investor class (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      spotDawa

      (business owners tend to bet on their own immediate needs) but I do not like the implication that clean tech is just some way to churn money.

      You could just as well say that when we switched from horses to horsepower that there was a bubble. Major changes change economies radically, permanently. Theres no one making whale oil lamps now.

      The switch to clean technology, while it will be hampered in some places by greater demand elsewhere like China - using up wind turbine parts causing shortages that may be for us permanent! ie we have carbon fiber shortages now because the only big plane being made to meet the EUs new CO2 limits on airplanes allowed to landthere, is devouring all that the carbonfiber that mfs can make.

      So instead of fretting about whether theres a bubble...

      •  Clean tech is much more than that. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        dotcommodity

        Sorry if that is what you took away from this.  Clean energy is an absolute necessity.  Just like home ownership, and the stock market itself.

        But your ideals should not blind you to the fact that where there's hype, there will be a bubble; and many idealists will be the ones who pay.

        You could fill hundreds of pages with the problems that clean tech will solve.  I'm just pointing out early what will be painfully obvious later.

        It does not detract from the need or value of the sector -- it is in fact all the many needs for clean tech that make it the next target for manipulators.

        _______________________________
        Healing the universe is an inside job.

        by spotDawa on Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 09:01:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  As long as a green tech Google comes out of it (6+ / 0-)

    the bursting of the bubble will be worth it.  The positive externalities of green energy are off the charts.

    Their number is negligible and they are stupid. -- Eisenhower

    by Pegasus on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 02:59:51 PM PDT

    •  I'm inclined to agree. (0+ / 0-)

      The key to winning in a bubble environment, which is what globalism has become, is to understand the dynamics.

      But worth it to whom?  It will be worth a bundle to those who understand the bubble dynamic, and it will ruin a lot of others -- especially those who invest for the cause rather than for their own cynical benefit!

      _______________________________
      Healing the universe is an inside job.

      by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:02:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sounds like a good thing! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    spotDawa

    As long as you leave the wave before it wipes out!

    Please don't tell me you feel sorry for Ben. Ben is a well cared for dalmatian and has not been harmed by my political views.

    by Bensdad on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:01:24 PM PDT

    •  As long as... exactly. (0+ / 0-)

      All I'm sayin is -- be careful!

      _______________________________
      Healing the universe is an inside job.

      by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:03:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's funny you post this.... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        spotDawa, RosyFinch, MizC

        ..because a friend of mine in marketing said exactly the same thing this morning: All the money is going to green. Her explanation is that people realize that our current way of living is simply not sustainable, and perceived to be not safe (toxic products from china) and so a lot of marketing money is going green.

        Please don't tell me you feel sorry for Ben. Ben is a well cared for dalmatian and has not been harmed by my political views.

        by Bensdad on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:06:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  spot, (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Fabian, spotDawa, MizC

    are you saying  -- it's gonna bust before it's even a bubble.  I have to say that the best money maker in my portfolio now is a green bond fund and one solar stock.  Really within 6 months - almost doubled.  

    What exactly are we doing to encourage green energy?  What scholarships for instance?  any universities funding chairs and research --  I'm clueless about this -

    Democrats, Make it Work. You have until November to bring your electorate in.

    by xanthe on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:03:49 PM PDT

    •  My guess is that is will have glorious ride (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      xanthe, Naniboujou

      The growth in the green sector is HUGE.  And I couldn't be happier about that.

      All of the big names are on board.  They don't care about anything but perception, for the most part, and the perception is, the time has come.

      But the way things work today, the economics will be overcome by the hype and market shenanigans, so a lot of people will get bit in the end.

      _______________________________
      Healing the universe is an inside job.

      by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:06:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  so watch the markets carefully - (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        spotDawa

        but everything is going down now - so lots of people will seek the green money - (sorry)

        Democrats, Make it Work. You have until November to bring your electorate in.

        by xanthe on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:14:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well that's a good thing. (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          xanthe, Fabian, MizC

          Bubbles are a part of the landscape I think, and I can't think of a prettier balloon than a Green one.  It really is the right time for this to happen, if not a few decades too late...

          But the problem is that venture capital wants a short-term return (3 to 5 years), so even a strong sector can be collapsed in that time frame regardless of the intrinsic value of the sector's industries.

          _______________________________
          Healing the universe is an inside job.

          by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:23:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So what kind of cycle is this gonna be? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            spotDawa

            5 year? 3 year? 7 year? like real estate?

            While you may get in on the proverbial ground floor, it's the timing of the getting out that is crucial.  Greed usually takes over and you end up leaving monies on the table.  Sure wish I had a crystal ball.

            I agree green energy is where it is/will be at, but not until Repubs are out as well as the corporatists.  We need investment in R&D, creativity, etc.

            I'm retired now (outsourced hit), but won't see Soc.Sec. for years, if ever.  It worries me.  Hubby sill employed but how long will that last?  He's got tough, younger competition.

            •  The Real Estate Bubble was not venture capital (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              kfred, jakebob

              driven -- but all you needed in the way of a crystal ball for that one was a schedule of adjustable-rate mortgage resets.

              The best crystal balls around are the ones held by the venture capital crowd -- and they rarely do 7-year deals.

              The issue isn't just when the VC's start cashing out, but where the tipping point is that drives down all the stocks in the sector based on their trades rather than the value of the sector.

              But I've got no real advice here.  Like I said, I sit these things out.  I just don't care about getting rich at other's expense.

              _______________________________
              Healing the universe is an inside job.

              by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 04:03:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Uh, they're capitalists? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    theran, spotDawa

    I would kind of suppose that's what a venture capital firm would do-- get out of an industry when it peaks.

    I am sure there will be multiple bubbles in the worldwide alternative energy industry over the coming decades, especially when a promising technology fails. That's business.

    •  No denying that. It's just that (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Olds88, xanthe

      when they cash out and crash the sector, they take the little people's money and put it in their coffers.

      So more power to 'em, I suppose, but just don't be one of the little guys left holding the bag.

      _______________________________
      Healing the universe is an inside job.

      by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:08:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  More meat on that green (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kfred, spotDawa, TheTrucker

    I worked through the tech bust, as a programmer. Watched greed get the better of otherwise level headed individuals and saw some lose everything in the process. The road was, of course, not paved in gold. Which is why I asked for salary as opposed to stock options. Still, this comment...

    I worked hard, saved, and kept my head.  And I have nothing to show for it, since the work I do dries up as soon as I get ahead.

    Is extremely well received. One thing I took away from my experience was that the inability of investors to grasp the technology being developed facilitated much of the pie in the sky investing. I think there is at least some potential, though, for green technologies to present far more understandable, tangible models and practical applications for investors to evaluate. Perhaps this will allow for the "e-Whatever" pitfall to be bypassed, at least partially.

    Slap happy is a platform.

    by averageyoungman on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:09:51 PM PDT

    •  Unlike much of the Dot mess, (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      xanthe, averageyoungman

      the fundamentals in Green energy are definitely there.  Just like Amazon is still around -- same VC firm that Gore is now working with (Colin Powell, too, I hear).

      But the fundamentals don't get any more solid in any sector than they are in real estate.  And that didn't stop the cognoscenti from raping the world with their greed.

      _______________________________
      Healing the universe is an inside job.

      by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:14:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Very true (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        spotDawa

        Perhaps, and hopefully, the level of expertise required to offer a viable product in Green Technology will prevent saturation therein from reaching fantasy land. The global economic implications are so huge, it's goin g to be interesting.

        The net-based potential of this I think is extremely exciting.

        What kind of programming do you do?

        Slap happy is a platform.

        by averageyoungman on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:21:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Mostly productivity applications (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          averageyoungman

          Database design, office systems, MIS, that sort of exciting thing.

          _______________________________
          Healing the universe is an inside job.

          by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:25:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I kind of go with the flow, or try (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            spotDawa

            Mostly web applications, front end and server based, with a wee bit of Mac programming here and there. One of the good things about web-based applications, at least that I have found, is that the commonalities in syntax and development are such that it's easy enough for me to jump from one to another with a short period of intense indoctrination.

            I suppose it's kind of like "running the razor's edge" and it can be nerve wracking. God can it be nerve wracking. But it has saved me on more than one occasion, and I suppose running that razor makes it a little less likely that you may be outsourced. It's cutthroat.

            Slap happy is a platform.

            by averageyoungman on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:47:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Lol, I could learn a thing or two from you (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              averageyoungman

              about going with the flow!  I hate hype.  I hate Web 2.0 and 3.0.  The ideas behind "social networking" and the "semantic web" are great, but I can't bear to deal with the breathless types who get caught up in it and think it's all so new and shiny. They are just different versions of the same things computers and telephones have been doing since they were invented.

              I'm a fundamentals guy I guess, and when times are good it serves me well.  When times are bad, I get too pissed off to jump on the bandwagon.  I suppose that only hurts me though.

              As the saying goes, I prefer being pissed off than getting pissed on!

              _______________________________
              Healing the universe is an inside job.

              by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 04:19:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not so ironically (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                spotDawa

                It is my fundamentals that suffer as a result. The value of them is not lost on me to be sure, and I make efforts to fill my weak spots when I can. I completely understand what you're saying here. With the object oriented stuff, there is a standard that I can't see a shift in for some time. It provides a mild respite from the anxiety somewhat, and at the least it never ceases to be interesting.

                I steer clear of the buzzwords too, to the extent that I can, and try to focus on what I can take with me when and if I make the next jump. Thankfully the last few years have been relatively consistent if only from the perspective of the tools I use and not my employer.

                I, too, could learn a lot from you!

                Slap happy is a platform.

                by averageyoungman on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 04:34:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  it affected me (4+ / 0-)

      that whole age and experience affected me, too.  I starting working during the boom, when working for a new company was like joining a cause.  You felt loyalty to your employer, and also to the cause.  You put in more hours than they asked, because that was the culture - because of loyalty, and family.

      The the bust happened and it taught you there was no such thing as loyalty other than to the bottom line.  The loyalty to the employees was an illusion, it was just a function of being loyal to the bottom line.  All the businesses, even the most idealistic happy-face businesses, were loyal only to their bottom line, and that's just because it's business.

      It taught me to look at things in terms of self-interest.  If my working situation doesn't work for me, then it doesn't matter if it works for my employer.  No matter what, you have to make sure that your working situation is working for you.  You have to look at yourself as a business, and protect your own bottom line.

      I run into new friends (or women I date) that haven't learned this yet.  They put themselves in employment situations where they are being taken advantage of, out of some feeling of loyalty or belonging.  And meanwhile experience a ton of stress, for no additional positive benefit on their lives.  If you got hired for a 40-hour/week job, you will not be fired for going home at 6pm.  You do not need to work 60 or 70 hours a week.  The business will not fall apart if you stand up for yourself.  And if it does, it is a bad business and you should not be working there.

      I know people can look at it from a variety of perspectives - but for me it taught me good things.  I value a work/life balance now.  Leave the job at the job.

      •  Leave the job at the job is one way... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        averageyoungman

        The other way is to put all of that energy into doing what you love and are passionate about and work for yourself.

        I say that is another way...it is a very hard way though, especially at the down parts of the insanity cycle.

        But I'd rather work for idealistic small business owners than a corporation any dday.

        _______________________________
        Healing the universe is an inside job.

        by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:34:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Amen to that (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        spotDawa

        A difficult balance to strike in this business, but certainly something to strive for. Certainly, none of that has changed, except perhaps the value a business will place on employees that are difficult to replace. That said, what you said regarding loyalties is the true reality. I try to keep aware of it at all times. Seems as if short stints will continue to be the order of business for some time to come.

        Slap happy is a platform.

        by averageyoungman on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:52:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  There should be a book about this ... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    spotDawa

    Pop: Why Bubbles are Great for the Economy

    From Publishers Weekly
    Starred Review. Three cheers for "exuberant, foolish, mad overinvestment!" Slate columnist Gross takes a counterintuitive look at economic bubbles—those once-in-a-generation crazes that everyone knows can't last, and don't. With each one, we lament having gotten in too late, and then not having gotten out soon enough, and finally shake our heads at the inevitable bankruptcies and lost jobs and general financial wreckage. The pattern is all too familiar, which is why Gross's argument is so intriguing: that these bubbles, with their hype and madness and overenthusiasm, are not to be feared—they're actually a primary engine of "America's remarkable record of economic growth and innovation." The author surveys modern bubbles and finds the benefits far more durable than the disruptions: in each case, most investors flopped, but businesses and consumers found themselves with a "usable commercial infrastructure" that they quickly put to new uses. The telegraph "led to the creation of national and international financial markets"; extra railroad lines made national consumer brands possible and gave consumers access to distant stores; extra fiber-optic capacity gave everyone Internet access after the bust. Gross drops zingers throughout his cheery history, amusingly highlighting parallels between past and current bubbles. He concludes—with admirable practicality—by calling for a "real bubble" to jump-start alternative-energy programs.

    •  Interesting blurb there. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Naniboujou, science first

      I am very happy that the sector is growing like it is.  I can accept the toughness of the market and competition and bad ideas failing while good ones succeed.

      I think the reason I wrote this, and posted it here, is that idealistic individuals may tend to see the Green bubble as somehow different than the others because it aligns with their core beliefs. And it is those gentle souls who stand to be ravaged by the jungle-rules at play in the bubble economy.

      _______________________________
      Healing the universe is an inside job.

      by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:18:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  "than there are good investment" (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    spotDawa

    How about they try investing in people instead. If we had a rational tax system, we could do that. Let people stay in school as long as they wish and leave without crippling debt.

    Then you went have the 1% fighting for ways to invest.

    fact does not require fiction for balance

    by mollyd on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:21:06 PM PDT

    •  I'm with you, Molly. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      RosyFinch

      I really want to see my work going to help the little guy and gal overcome the barriers to entry.  One of the biggest barriers is just knowing how to write a business plan -- and knowing how to do that has little or nothing to do with the dreams of right work that people have.

      Unfortunately the system has long been skewed to keep individuals "employed" rather than working for themselves to achieve a larger dream.

      _______________________________
      Healing the universe is an inside job.

      by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 03:28:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  advocates with a business angle (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    spotDawa

    Attended a presentation by REAP last week
    Renewable Energy Alaska Project (REAP) is a coalition of urban and rural Alaska utilities, businesses, conservation and consumer groups, and Alaska Natives with an interest in developing Alaska's vast renewable energy resources.
    http://www.alaskarenewableenergy.org/

    While the glitzy thing was selling carbon offsets from Kotzebue city utility wind generator to Vail ski resort, the substance included graphs of projected costs including carbon tax.  
    The bald statement was that business plans need to assume there will be carbon taxes imposed and soon.
    and the lesson was that the cost of energy is going up, so we need to accomodate that.

    "You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them." [Ray Bradbury]

    by RosyFinch on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 04:01:52 PM PDT

  •  grab what you can get for your region (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    spotDawa

    I think the game now is grab what you can for your region and watch the places that aren't prepared come apart. The southwest will fail on water stress alone and with declining hydro power? Las Vegas is a fantasy to begin with before those two effects strike. The southeast drought is a bit of a surprise ... if they really do have to evacuate Atlanta due to water shortages where are we going to put five million displaced persons?

    I am hoping for development and stability in the upper Midwest - ammonia works as both a fertilizer and fuel so I'm headed that way, trying to get a wind driven ammonia project landed here.

    •  I'm afraid the displacement is going to be (0+ / 0-)

      much more tragic than a mere few million.  I'd wager that in this century (note that I'll be dead by the end of the bet, ;) the majority of the world's population will be displaced by sea level changes alone.  Because at or near sea level is where the majority of the world's population is distributed.

      Sad as it is, and as unsustainable as it sounds, "grab what you can get" may be name of the long-term game.

      I'm glad I don't have kids.

      _______________________________
      Healing the universe is an inside job.

      by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 05:49:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  several million *next year* in the U.S. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        spotDawa

        The key bits there are several million next year in the U.S. If that doesn't serve as a wake up call nothing will.

         Globally peak oil and its dear friend peak food are going to put an end to 2/3rds to 5/6ths of all humans alive at the moment. The northern reaches of the U.S. might be survivable, but the dry lands? Look out ...

        •  Yes...peak food... (0+ / 0-)

          I was reflecting yesterday on the past decades' transition to petroleum-based agriculture -- including fertilizers -- and how closely these two were intertwined from the beginning of the oil economy.

          Now we're going increasingly to petroleum-based "agriculture" for growing fuel instead of food.  Peak "everything human" seems to be what we're looking at.

          But that's nothing new.  We learned about population boom and bust in elementary school life sciences -- though I don't recall ever thinking about the fact that it applies to humans as well as every other population.

          _______________________________
          Healing the universe is an inside job.

          by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 06:17:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  petroleum driven biofuel is dead (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            spotDawa

             The ethanol plants in Iowa are all going to go under with an EROI of not more than 1.2. Ethanol will go back to being just a blending component used for air quality ... unless we take a real beating on overall oil supplies, and then we may have flexfuel, bicycles, and shoe leather as transport modes.

             If we have enough wind turbines - say around 5.0 gigawatts, we can produce Iowa's supply of ammonia from wind. Iowa is one fourth of the crop - we secure all of it in perpetuity with no gas input for twenty billion. If we've got more than that, roughly 5x more based on various calculations, we can covert tractors and combines to ammonia operation and completely free corn/soy/wheat from needing fossil fuel except for lubricants.

  •  Here's what I want to know: (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    spotDawa

    How do I make a buck?

    Because making a buck off of green tech, lemme tell you, that wouldn't suck.

    •  Maxomai! (0+ / 0-)

      I am so behind you on this question.

      I'd like to see it get easier to enter business in any market on a small scale -- a green principle to begin with -- and not have to play these ridiculous capitalist games.

      Profit-making is capitalism.  Growth is natural, growth means life. But the need for huge returns and huge investments and huge venture capitalists is all so hugely out of whack with the scale that the average person lives on.

      I just want to make a stable living, not a killing.  I'm working on a job-cost estimation application geared to this purpose: make it easier to calculate break-even points, operating budgets, and other pro forma statements for the small startup.

      I'm sick of watching the neoliberal oligarchy suck all the air out of the world every few years.

      _______________________________
      Healing the universe is an inside job.

      by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 05:45:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I know someone who might be interested in your (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        spotDawa

        application to sell to their clients, and they are a small startup themselves.  It is my daughter and her partner and they cater to new contractors just coming out of licensing classes.

        I'd like to learn more about investing in green technology, and I'm just now eligible to join my employer's 401(k).

        I was just telling someone that every recession I have been laid off... I might be fortunate this time but have been stocking up the household for that possible emergency.

        Interesting conversation about the bubble economy, but I'm hoping the green revolution is more than just a bubble... that ingenuity in the field takes us beyond what we now know to more and better.

        Republicans: Your history has earned you a new mantra: "War and waste." ~~ Marta Jorgensen (CA-24 in '08)

        I am an Edwards Democrat!

        by Scubaval on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 08:29:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  More than just a bubble... (0+ / 0-)

          Absolutely, it is.  But it is also the natural next major hype recipient -- the venture capital onslaught is already underway.

          My take on the bubble is that it will arise next in the green sector, inevitably, as a result of the neoliberal (globalization) dynamic of money flows, the attention being given to global warming, and the cost of oil.  It is now possible, for example, to produce hydrogen from the electrolysis of water using solar electricity on a cost per unit energy par with gasoline -- the breakeven is about $3.00 per gallon.

          I'd be careful about oil price shenanigans though.  If the alternative energy boom really gets going, I suspect that the price of oil will magically and suddenly drop below that competitive level again.  After all, I think we are really paying a fear premium on oil futures, not a price based on the cost of production.  (That's a big topic -- petroleum is heavily subsidized in many ways -- but I wouldn't be surprised to see the first green bubble pop in exactly this way.  It matches the evil of the industry as a whole to take this strategy.)

          As much as I'd love to give you investment advice, I'm not a financial advisor nor an investor, so it wouldn't be a good idea to listen to my advice on that score.  The psychology of the market hype FAR outweighs any rational decision-making process based on financial ratio analysis ('the fundamentals'), so be careful with your 401(k)!  But if you find yourself riding a wave, keep in mind the 3-5 year cycle of venture capital liquidation.

          Finally -- of course, I'd love to get in touch with your daughter and her partner about this application.  My background in manufacturing biases my thought process toward machine shop production cycles, but the cost estimation process is applicable to any industry, and contracting is a natural fit.  

          Please email me: spot_dawa "at" yahoo dot com (note the underscore).

          _______________________________
          Healing the universe is an inside job.

          by spotDawa on Sun Jan 20, 2008 at 09:33:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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