Daily Kos

Hillary is Killing the Democratic Party

Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:46:28 AM PDT

The more I see of how she and her husband are running her campaign, the more disgusted I am with the whole process.

Over the weekend, I shivered over the prospect of a Hillary vs McCain presidential race this fall....and got exceedingly depressed.

Either Hillary wins by the skin of her teeth, and governs like a scared rabbit for 4 years focused entirely on getting reelected, or she loses to McCain.

The former scenario is only moderately more desirable, in my opinion than the latter. At least Hillary won't be appointing nakedly rightwing ideologues to the Supreme Court or the federal bench. That is -- I think so. But, given her penchant for doing whatever it takes to suck up to moderates and Republican voters to obtain and retain power, I am not even 100% certain that is the case either.

Now, I am not doing this as an apologist for Barack Obama. He is not the perfect candidate by any means. He has his own problems.

But, the one thing I see in Obama that I do not see in Hillary Clinton is a transformational figure. Obama has the ability to completely realign the political firmament. He can cause a political paradigm shift to a progressive majority that I simply do not see Hillary being able to, or frankly, willing to achieve. He would also have large political coattails, attracting young people, independents and moderate Republicans into the party. Hillary would do the opposite. Especially against John McCain.

Hillary's concern is gaining power and then retaining it. When gaining and retaining power are your top priorities, you don't govern wisely or with any degree of vision or leadership.

Obama's campaign, it seems to me, is about enlising the American people in an effort to completely change the way things are done in this country. Obama understands that you can talk about changing Washington as much as you want. And you can even become President having every intention of doing so. But you cannot truly effect change without a strong political mandate from the people.

Does anyopne truly believe (even HIllary supporters) that Hillary would have a strong mandate for that kind of transformational change if she wins the Presidency?

As for campaign tactics, Hillary is running the campaign Al Gore or maybe even John Kerry should have run in 2000 and 2004. But, I think the time for that kind of agressive campaigning is not appropriate for this election.

The people associate that kind of rough and tumble politics with George W. Bush and the GOP. And they do not like it. It turns them off.

They are hungering for an inspiring leader they can be proud of.

I wish that could have been John Edwards, but I do not see that happening. So, my choice is Barack Obama or Hillary. And given the two choices, its Obama in a landslide.

Finally, who would have thought that it would be the white female candidate who is tearing the Democratic party apart at its coalitional foundations? She and her campaign started injecting race and gender issues into the campaign. Obama, naively, started retorting and exascerbating the problem. I think Obama, however, finally realized how perilous it was to burst the bubble of his campaign and to engage in this kind of turgid and ugly politics.

So, I have vented my thoughts on this subject. But let me say one last ting before I sign off. Those of you out there who are supporting Hillary out of some kind of sisterhood, and not because of her poliies, ideas, or her ability to lead this country really need to search your souls to find out whether you are supporting Hillary for the right reasons. The same goes for those who are supporting Obama out of a sense of racial pride.

Obama, ironically, probably would recoil or reject that basis for his support. Although he is not going to openly oppose it.

Hillary, on the other hand, seems to be openly cultivating it. That is a damn shame. And it is unworthy of the Democratic party and our great heritage.

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, 2008 election (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 262 comments

  •  "sigusted" with the typo (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Fabian, idealistlefty, Lobsters
    •  Unity08! (0+ / 0-)

      /s

      Notice: This Comment © ROGNM

      by ROGNM on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:52:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Diaries like this are killing the Democrats! n/t (12+ / 0-)

        "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

        by bobswern on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:01:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry, the candidate's BEHAVIOR is the problem (9+ / 0-)

          My God..... the circular firing squad is at work rather early.

          My opinion of Senator Clinton has only gone down as time passes - she is acting as if she is ENTITLED to the Presidency, based on WHAT?  Being First Lady and holding office for how many years?  This is suspiciously like a certain son whose real accomplishments were less important than his name.  Her failure to show any REAL leadership - to take HARD stands on issues, instead polling and 'triangulating to death' scares the hell out of me..... never mind who her big contributors are....  

          At this point it looks like Hillary and Bill will burn down the damn village if they can't run it and what's the BEST we can hope for if the oligarchy continues?    another 'Republican lite' who will leave us in Iraq ('over the horizon' but still there), stand by idly as we ship MORE jobs overseas and  accomplish little of substance during four years of constant warfare..... all the while the world implodes and our economy collapses.....

          Senator Obama at least provides the illusion of 'vision' - though only time will tell if the substance is there as well.  

          At this point Edwards is making more and more sense - which is why the Dem leadership and big contributors won't let him near the nomination.

          Frankly, I am disillusioned with the whole field.  The BEST people are NOT running and we're going to pay heavily as a result.

          Perhaps the whole damn thing WILL fall apart and someone can persuade Gore to step in and save the Dems from themselves - but I suspect he has too much sense to get involved.

          The Dems may blow this all yet......  the irony is that there are a whole bunch of fed-up REPUBLICANS that were hoping for far better.  They WANTED to vote for a decent Democrat, HOPING for REAL change.  They are fed up with their own party but sure aren't seeing anything worthwhile on the other side of the aisle.  The Dems are feeding EVERY argument you can make for NOT letting them take control in 2008.  They'd rather fight over BS than get anything REAL done.....

          These fed up voters may end up voting for McCain yet given what they're seeing from the Dems...... They figure, "Hell, how much worse can it get?"

          Yeah, LOTS - but with what we're seeing now, and HAVE seen from the Dems, peopel are saying "It's not like THEY are going to change ANYTHING."

          •  That's what I see happening too (5+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            latts, koNko, charlestown dem, costello7, broui

            The Dems are in the process of blowing the elections.  Are postured to run the candidate with the same Iraq War baggage which spelled disaster for our 2004 candidates, the highest negatives, and least appeal to Independents and moderates versus McCain.

            Conservatives and theocrats may not vote McCain, but they just may galvinize an anti-Hillary third party ticket voter turnout, which would be disastrous wrt downticket races.

            We're seeing hopes of a broad progressive consensus just pissed away before our very eyes.  Thanks to the party leadership and a netroots which is embracing the likes of Penn and all of a sudden, won't work against the DLC when given the chance.

            No one to blame but ourselves this time.

            •  Exactly. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              koNko

              Here we go again, the Dems manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Hillary will claw her way to the nomination and we'll be defeated by the GOP candidate (*any* GOP candidate). There is only one change candidate in this election, and it should be Obama in a landslide.

              A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves.

              by charlestown dem on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 08:27:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yup (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                koNko

                People are actually cheerleading a proven losing strategy: divisive politics, setting one "identity group" against the other, turning oppenents' strengths into weaknesses by way of character attacks.

                Were Clinton winning fair and square, with just a better strategy for implementing a progressive mandate, that would be one thing.  But the lies, the smears, the unreasonable expectation that the country has any interest in voting in another "voted to authorize it, not sorry, but want to end it."

                We're about to lose, and I am just so saddened seeing the trainwreck in action.

            •  It's a rerun of 2000. (0+ / 0-)

              Only Hillary is playing the part of George W. Bush and Obama the part of John McCain.

              Bush got a wakeup call against McCain in an early state, and then went on a savage attqcking dirtyty campaign spree against McCain to win the nomination.

              H would up weakening the party as a result and probably lost the poipular vote for Gore because of it.

              Yes, Bush eventually "won," but he has utterly destroyed the GOP for a generation thanks to not only his incompetence, but his highly partisan method of governance.

              •  I actually think it's the worst (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                koNko

                of both 2000 and 2004.  It's incredible: Republican swiftboat tactics - turn an opponent's strength into a weakness via character attacks and lies - from 2000.  Dumb strategy of running another clear Iraq triangulator against the "straight talk express" from 2004.

                Good Lord, this is a trainwreck.

                •  Definately Worse. (0+ / 0-)

                  HRC's debate performance is a taste of things to come.

                  Strong and seasoned leader? Hardly.

                  Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

                  by koNko on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 09:10:43 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  If we can't defeat the Clintons (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    koNko

                    during the primaries, it's going to get extremely bad.  Not enough yellow dog dems to carry her over a McCain, mark my words.

                    And she's giving non yellow-dog Dems, by the actions of herself and her husband, ample reason to just tune out.

                    Just another example of just horrible leadership on the part of the Democratic establishment, and sorry to say, the netroots as well.

        •  Hillary is Satan. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          charlestown dem, broui

          I've never been so sure of something in my life. I CANNOT vote for her in the general.  

  •  My Kingdom for an Editor! Well, a spell-checker (4+ / 0-)

    anyway.

    "With all the wit of a stunned trout, prodigal stumbled clumsily into the midst of a discussion . . . " -- droogie6655321

    by prodigal on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:48:16 AM PDT

  •  Barack is killing the (12+ / 6-)

    Democratic Party...I'm so glad he was finally exposed last night.  Praise Jesus.

    •  Please explain. (8+ / 1-)

      You really should explain your comment, as I did, or you risk being troll rated.

      •  powertrip much? (16+ / 1-)

        I think he is making fun of you.  As he should.  Your diary is a hit piece and is, how did you say it, "unworthy of our party and our heritage?"

        "I simply take the side of truth against any lie, of sense against nonsense, justice against injustice." Czech President Vaclav Havel

        by idealistlefty on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:51:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Explain? (4+ / 0-)

        Everytime someone talks about his record he claims it is a distortion.  For example, his Iraq opposition.  As Hillary clearly explained last night, while he was out of the US Senate he was against the war, since he has been in the Senate he has voted the funding, but when someone brings that up, they are distorting his record.

        I understand the media want challenge Barack b/c they don't want to be seen as racist, but continuing to give him a free pass is ridiculous.  Furthermore, remember he started all the "squabbling" last night with his snarly Wal-Mart comment, which got shoved right back at him the slumlord retort.

        •  and his stance on the war was explained (5+ / 0-)

          but you did not care to listen. So I will explain it again.  John Kerry asked him to be his Key Note speaker. It was during on interview at the convention when  he was asked about supporting Kerry who voted for the war. Not wanting to embarrass Kerry our nominee he made the statements that you are referring to but ended with I would not have supported the war.  That is why he took it down from his web site. He was a team player and did not want to cause divisiveness in our party. He voted for funding because our troops were sent into this war unprepared and ill-equipped. He continually called for a time line and plan for withdrawal. When after so many calls for withdrawal he would not vote for more funding. Do you get.

          •  Sounds like a very political (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Pacific John

            answer from a man who wants to change politics.

            •  Sounds like common sense, remember that? (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Greuben

              Of not tearing the only two Dem politicians who were postured to stop Bush a new a-hole on the eve of a set of elections.

              Why, what could Obama have been thinking?  Perhaps that wherever he went, the media was falling over themselves to use Obama's stance against the Iraq War as a weapon against our fucking Presidential nominees.  What you deride I call common f-ing sense and a showing of leadership completely missing from too many of those who call themselves our leaders.

              What a departure from the morons running this party.  I will be praying daily that more of this party sees reason.

            •  Yes, he should have waved his fist (0+ / 0-)

              and shouted "damn you, John Kerry, you warmonger!  We deserve to lose this election because of you!"

              ::eye roll::  You people are really hopeless.

              "Conservative principles" are marketing props used by the Conservative Movement to achieve political power, not actual beliefs. -Glenn Greenwald

              by latts on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 09:19:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  It *sounds* like you're saying... (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Pacific John, scoff0165, JustinL

            ...he abandoned his principles to make a pretty speech. I'm not sure how that's supposed to be a good thing.  

            MY McCain / "Dungeons & Dragons" Character Sheet - "Funster" - L6 Male Human Rogue - S15/D18/Co16/I13/W10/Ch11 - FEAR MY UNCANNY DODGE OLD MAN!

            by TooFolkGR on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:35:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sounds like you are a smear merchant (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Greuben, latts

              too compromised to look beyond whatever trance would make this party even consider running someone with the SAME Iraq War baggage that helped kill the Kerry/Edwards elections.

              Perhaps Obama was showing leadership, and again showing his management of the media which was valiently trying to use Obama's correct and prescient stance against the Iraq War as a weapon to go after our then nominees.

              He took their little toy away.

              How unprincipled!

              Maybe you're the one who lacks principles, which is why this party is set to despite all the odds, lose yet another set of elections.

              Good going folks.

              •  Let me get this straight (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                eleanora, scoff0165

                Kerry and Edwards lost the 2004 election because of their Iraq War votes.  And they lost to the guys who engineered the Iraq War.  George Will?  Is that you?

                I'm an Obama supporter you ignorant douche.  I've given him money and would have voted for him if he were on the ballot here.  That doesn't mean I think his ass shoots out sunshine and puppies.  And the fact is his position on the Iraq War when it started is completely irrelevant, because when the Iraq War started HE was completely irrelevant.  

                You're the type who gets all of Obama's supporters reputation as being cult of personality syncophants.  Take the good with the bad, and read before you start typing.

                MY McCain / "Dungeons & Dragons" Character Sheet - "Funster" - L6 Male Human Rogue - S15/D18/Co16/I13/W10/Ch11 - FEAR MY UNCANNY DODGE OLD MAN!

                by TooFolkGR on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 09:56:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Okay supporter (0+ / 0-)

                  You think the Iraq War triangulating had no effect on the elections?  That this wasn't a serious handicap?

                  Yet I'm the "ignorant douche."

                  You don't have to be in a "cult" to see reality.  Plenty of substantive criticism of Obama around.

                  Yours ain't one of them!

          •  One thing to remember (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Greuben

            is that a few people around here have become unhinged and are no longer listening to reason.  I do not hear this level of venom and hate towards Obama expressed anywhere save this small online enclave of relatively non-diverse political sportspeople.

            For instance, someone on this thread "joked" that Obama smokes crack.

            Remember your audience or you will become frustrated.

        •  Re: Explain? (3+ / 0-)

          Everytime someone talks about his record he claims it is a distortion.  For example, his Iraq opposition.  As Hillary clearly explained last night, while he was out of the US Senate he was against the war, since he has been in the Senate he has voted the funding, but when someone brings that up, they are distorting his record.

          One can be against the war from the start, but still support funding for the troops once that decision has been made.  Why do HRC supporters have a hard time separating those two concepts?

          It is an absolute distortion of his record to suggest Obama was for the war in Iraq, thus his resentment of (Bill) Clinton characterizing his anti-war position as a fairy-tale.

          "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. " -- Thomas Paine

          by RaisingPaine on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:27:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No we understand.... (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            eleanora, scoff0165

            it's just funny how when he was out of the Senate he voted against the war, but since he has been in the Senate he has basically voted the same as HRC when it is concerning the war.

            •  What's funny about it? (0+ / 0-)

              Being against the war from the start doesn't mean you're against ensuring the welfare of those already deployed to wage it.  Once committed to a mission, the nation has a responsibility to provide it's brave men and women in the armed forces everything they need to carry it out.  

              It sounds like you are suggesting that if Obama was truly against the war then he should not have voted to keep funding it.  Between 2004 and 2006 (Obama's time in the Senate, 12-36 months after the start), the Senator (given that we were already committed) was willing to give the commanders on the ground the benefit of the doubt, as well as provide time for Iraqi leadership to coalesce and step up.  

              The publication of the Iraq Study Group Report (12/06) from the bi-partisan Baker-Hamilton Commission provided, for the first time, not only a comprehensive assessment of the condition on the ground, but also a series of benchmarks by which progress in Iraq could be measured.  

              Once it became painfully clear that the situation was NOT improving and Iraqis were not moving towards the kind of political accomodation that would allow our troops to return home, Obama -- along with many other dems -- became proponents of timelines attached to further funding authorization.  

              But, again, I can't tell what you're inferring by Obama's lack of voting dissent.  Perhaps you're suggesting that since he was now in the Senate and privy to the same information others had, he might have voted in favor of authorizing the war had he been in the Senate in 2002.  

              "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. " -- Thomas Paine

              by RaisingPaine on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:56:03 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  but obama supporters (0+ / 0-)

            always complain of the dem leadership in congress for funding the war. Now Obama votes for it and that is OK. You guys are irrational just like aceepting not to have healthcare for evry single American and accepting his answer on the credit card bill! i still agree with Bill. This is the biggest fairy tail I've ever seen"

            •  I tolerate the funding (0+ / 0-)

              because I know that GWB is perfectly willing to play chicken with the soldiers (not the contractors like Blackwater, naturally), just like the little GI Joes he probably blew up when he was a kid, like the little sociopath in Toy Story.  I don't like it, but I understand it in tactical terms.  OTOH, the people who just decided that hey, Saddam would be an easy overthrow and Americans like quick triumphalist wars, and that therefore giving Bush what he wanted was a political no-brainer, are weakminded cowards at best.

              "Conservative principles" are marketing props used by the Conservative Movement to achieve political power, not actual beliefs. -Glenn Greenwald

              by latts on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 09:24:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I agree with the above comment. (0+ / 0-)

              I don't know any Obama supporters that complain about war funding prior to late 2006 funding, after which funding without timelines became the issue.

              With respect to "healthcare for every single American", how does HRC plan on enforcing her mandates -- the key provision of her plan?  She keeps dodging that question.

              With respect to the credit card bill, that means you also disagree with a number of other prominent democrats who voted against it.  It's an issue of legitimate contention.  If you want someone who voted the other way, I guess Hillary is your girl.

              "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. " -- Thomas Paine

              by RaisingPaine on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 08:04:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Alternative Explanation (8+ / 0-)

        Barack is Killing the Democratic Party ... The CLINTON DLC Democratic Party that is ... and for that, many of us will be forever grateful if he should succeed

        for all those complaining about what a disgraceful bunch of spineless 'wimps' -- that the Democratic Party has become -- a LOT of that blame leads straight to the ascendancy of the Clinton/DLC leadership of the party -- the one way to get rid of that is to REJECT it ...

        The current DLC/Clinton Democratic Party deserves to die (imo) ... and Barack is surely a good way to achieve that well deserved death ...

        •  Yes, the DLC is killing the Dem party (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          BYw

          and by the way the DLC is behaving, you'd think they want to lose in '08 so that a GOPer inherits the mess of Bush not a Dem.  But the Clintons' two-fer ambition complicates this...You're spot on in my opinion in naming the Clinton dominated DLC as the problem for progressives, not the solution.

    •  even assuming your contention is true (0+ / 0-)

      (which it is not), Barack's being "exposed" has nothing to Jesus.  

      Incendiado para arriba, listo para irme.

      by gobacktotexas on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:52:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I can't believe this was troll rated. (6+ / 0-)

      Hillary Clinton's Liberal Ranking http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/10/122232/619

      by tigercourse on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:13:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's a joke people are you so protective (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pacific John, leftynyc, emsprater

      Of Obama you can't take a joke?

      •  Was Not Cloaked In Snark In The Least.... (0+ / 0-)

        ....otherwise, I would have rec'd it.  I did not troll rate it either, although I feel it does nothing to actually engage in discussion, merely to bring on a "FOOD FIGHT".  Where's John Belushi when you need him?

        Help Make One In A Million Possible - A Documentary Feature Film About Asperger's.

        by tkmattson on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:23:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What the heck are you talking about (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Pacific John

          Praise be jesus?  That isn't snarky to you?

          Wow

          •  Jeebus, not Jesus. Now That Would Have Been 100% (0+ / 0-)

            ....idenitifiable as snark.  Which is a pretty good rule of thumb to use in these times right now.  As it stands right now, even the original poster has not said it was snark.  Why?  Because it may very well NOT be snark.  In fact, as posted, it is troll-worthy.  Again, saving my donuts for later, but I am willing to give the poster an actual opinion, which I believe says more than a TR most of the time anyway.

            Help Make One In A Million Possible - A Documentary Feature Film About Asperger's.

            by tkmattson on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:36:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well i look at the comment in context (0+ / 0-)

              The Title of the diary is Hillary is Killing....and the comment is Obama is killing it's obviously a joke.

              •  The Context Of A Single Post In A Thread.... (0+ / 0-)

                ....even one as such, needs to be clear enough to stand on it's very own, IMO.  I don't see the joke.  Also, here's what I don't get - how the Democratic party is kidding itself by considering putting up the ONE candidate out of the three that will unify the GOOPERS like no other.  It would be like the GOOPERS putting up Newt, and we mustn't kid ourselves on this, before it's too late.  November is now, and we go down that path with Hillary, do not be surprised to wake up to President McCain, Huckleberry, or Mittney.  She may win the primary.  God help us all.  (note, no Jeebus, so no snark, however - it is my opinion).

                Help Make One In A Million Possible - A Documentary Feature Film About Asperger's.

                by tkmattson on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:48:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Wrong Thread.... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Brecht, blueintheface

      ....take it over to the Obama-trash-a-thon on the rec'd list.  And this is troll worthy BTW - looking for nothing more than a fight.  That said, I'm keeping my donuts because I'm hungry.

      Help Make One In A Million Possible - A Documentary Feature Film About Asperger's.

      by tkmattson on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:18:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I often see cranky troll-hunters here, (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        scoff0165

        wandering through these parts, hurling donuts and invective at their enemies.

        I wish more of them would stop and think to eat some of their own donuts. Then maybe they wouldn't be so cranky.

        "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

        by Brecht on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 08:58:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  They don't care (15+ / 0-)

    With the Clintons it's always been them first, party second.

    Shill, Shill, Shill.

    by Paleo on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:48:49 AM PDT

    •  Leave it at them first. (4+ / 0-)

      If they keep up the lies, the party doesn't even have a ranking.

      White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 6/07)

      by nolalily on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:51:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I disagree about Bill Clinton. (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      joynow, Brecht, beltane

      I think he was full of ideas and did a lot of good things. HIllary, wierdly, has more in Common with the 2000 version of Al Gore than her husband. She feels entitled to be Preisdent, and hates having to -- you know -- actually go out and convince people she desrves the job.

      •  Especially Bill (5+ / 0-)

        The avatar of triangulation.

        Shill, Shill, Shill.

        by Paleo on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:02:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Mind read much? (6+ / 0-)

        See, this is what I object to about the Hillary bashers on this board (and no, I haven't chosen a candidate yet - I like them all) - so much ridiculous BS:

        "She feels entitled"

        "She hates..."

        Your hallucinations about what's going on in anyone's mind, much less one of our democratic candidates' minds, are just stupid hatefulness and contribute nothing worthwhile to the discussion.

        I would submit it's you that hates - an illogical hate for Hillary - and you're not willing (or able) to deal in facts or realities.

        All the candidates have issues - those we can discuss, debate, whatever. But this is just stupid sh*t - rightwing-type stupid sh*t.

        •  Facts (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Hesiod

          Ask yourself honestly --

          Why are Rohm Emmanuel, Ted Kennendy and Clybourn who are trying desperately to stay neutral telling Bill Clinton in their own way to knock off the smears?

          Why are so many red state Senators of late (no, not the early ones who thought that HRC was the presumptive nominee) coming out and endorsing Obama and saying he is the one who can build this party and it is Clinton that will lose them the majority because in their states, they will lose?

          Why is Obama treated as if he is an equal player in this petty, silly game of dirty politics when he has yet to smear or misrepresent HRC on anything and she has fired at least three low level staffers and one high level staffer for smears?

          I never personally claimed to hate HRC, but I have zero respect for her or her campaign tactics and anyone who can't recognize that it is she that is intentionally splitting democrats in an effort to win this nomination is just blind.

          "What Washington needs is adult supervision." --BARACK OBAMA

          by broui on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:51:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Bill's intentions were probably better than (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Sean Robertson, mjd in florida

        some of the policies he put through, that rush of republicans filling the congress made many good things harder to get through.

        But I have to say even that opinion dropped some last week when I was watching Moyer's show.

        BILL MOYERS: You point out, by the way, that Bill Clinton as president gave the super rich a larger tax break than George Bush's tax cuts, right?

        DAVID CAY JOHNSTON: Yeah, I love to trot this one out when somebody goes, "Oh, you're from the New York Times. You must be, you know, pro-Democrat or liberal or whatever." I'm the guy who broke the story and reported on the fact that Bill Clinton gave the super rich, the 400 highest income people in America a big tax cut. They were paying 30 cents out of each dollar of their income to the federal government when he came into the office. When he left, it was down to 22. Bush has lowered it to 17. Now, first of all, notice you're probably paying more than 17 cents. May well be paying more than 22. But Bush gave them an eight cent tax cut-- I'm sorry. Clinton gave an eight cent tax cut and Bush only gave them five cents.

        How did I not know that? Did everyone else?
        I associated him with middle class tax cuts so I searched to assure myself he did that as well and I found him promising to but I couldn't find any cuts except an increase in the earned income credit. I'm good at searching but I couldn't find any cuts for us.

        I wondered then how much of the fuzzy warm feelings are based on illusion. Through in NAFTA and the extreme welfare reform along with tax cuts for super rich and I'm trying to remember what was so good at all.

        Then how he has behaved in this campaign though has made it look like he cares about simply getting Hillary in, whatever else be damned.
        I know campaigns are ore often filled with distorted smears. I always dislike it even from my candidate and especially against someone in their own party.

        But even understanding he's her spouse and would support her he is the ex-president and the way in which he does it has to be...well honest. He gets such attention and people are prone to want to believe.
        It would have been nasty to see bush or or Jimmy Carter or anyone coming to support a candidate and smearing the same party opponent with distortions!

        Being also the spouse doesn't make that part more acceptable.

      •  Disgaree about Gore (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        scoff0165

        While he may have been the "establishment" candidate at the time, he felt no sense of entitlement whatsoever. Just because he was hesitant to butter up some mediawhores does not mean he was hesitant to convince people... and he did a damn good job of convincing. Down 20 at the beginning of '99, down 16 just before the Democratic convention, came across a media unified against him, and still won the popular vote, and, as we all know, Florida.

  •  About last night's debate (14+ / 0-)

    Although neither Hillary nor Obama Clinton looked good when they were attacking each other - it was what Obama had to do and probably came to the debate to accomplish.  So, he accomplished it.  It will be easier and smoother next time.
    Edwards had to look good.  In fact, given the back and forth that's been going on between the Clintons and Obama, he got the free opening to score some points.  I mean, you'd have to be extremely dense not to take advantage of it.  So, Edwards had an easy night and, of course, to some he appeared the winner.  Not to me, though.

    Hillary was actually damaged by last night's debate.  How badly?  We'll find out in the coming weeks depending on whether she backs off from Obama or not, but it didn't go unnoticed that her every breath included the name "Obama". Worse yet, she came across as a liar and someone who will stoop to any lengths to win.  And worse than that, she lost culpability making it more likely that people will doubt her more in the future.  People are already asking, "Well, who is Hillary Clinton without Bill anyway?" Also, America is more aware that she lies and are questioning the Clintons have been unethical in their use of Bill to attack Obama.  This may be the beginning of this not sitting right with some of the base which is where she finds her strongest support.  Bill, unmercifully attacking and LYING about the Dems next best hope might not sit well with hard-core Dems.

    And, Obama scored some important points.  He said some really good things like:  "The American people want to be able to trust their President".  BUT, where he really scored was in the big picture - despite the sniping, despite his obvious discomfort with it, he managed to expose Hillary and come away looking like the ethical candidate we can trust.

    White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 6/07)

    by nolalily on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:50:17 AM PDT

  •  Peace to you n/t (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    scoff0165, broui

    Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

    by Fabian on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:50:26 AM PDT

  •  Woe... (7+ / 0-)

    WOE IS US!!

    we are DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!!!!!!!!

    It's a neighborly day in this beautywood. Relentless!

    by ablington on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:52:31 AM PDT

  •  Really? (4+ / 0-)

    Seems like a lot of Dems are still living and breathing this morning.

    No??

    The Dem party will continue to go on whether the Clintons are in the While House again or not.

    I think it's a ridiculous notion and screams of "THE END OF THE WORLD IS HERE!" to think that the Clintons are going to be the end of everything.

  •  I disagree. Obama and Clinton (12+ / 0-)

    are equally embarrassing.

    Obama is not transformational.  Neither Clinton nor Obama are.  Neither threaten entrenched power, for they are at peace with it.  They both go into the gutter because there are few substantive differences between them.  Where there are, Obama has pulled off the amazing feat of moving to the right of Clinton.  

    As Obama seeks Republican blessings, The Reverened Dr. Martin Luther Kings, Jr.'s son speaks truth to power, as his father did:

    Dear Senator Edwards

    There has been, and will continue to be, a lot of back and forth in the political arena over my father's legacy. It is a commentary on the breadth and depth of his impact that so many people want to claim his legacy. I am concerned that we do not blur the lines and obscure the truth about what he stood for: speaking up for justice for those who have no voice.

    snip

    My father was not driven by an illusory vision of a perfect society. He was driven by the certain knowledge that when people of good faith and strong principles commit to making things better, we can change hearts, we can change minds, and we can change lives.

    So, I urge you: keep going. Ignore the pundits, who think this is a horserace, not a fight for justice. My dad was a fighter. As a friend and a believer in my father's words that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, I say to you: keep going. Keep fighting. My father would be proud.

    Sincerely,

    Martin L. King, III

    "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

    by TomP on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:53:55 AM PDT

  •  People like you are killing the Democratic Party. (15+ / 0-)

    It's a primary race. The candidates are trying to defeat each other. If you don't like Hillary, don't vote for her. But to suggest that she's destroying the party is nonsense.

    The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason. -Benjamin Franklin

    by HairyTrueMan on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:54:08 AM PDT

    •  How is it nonsense? (7+ / 0-)

      Show your reasoning.

      I laid out my reasons. While I fully understand and expect people to disagree with me, I also expect those who do to explain why.

      Otherwise, you aren't doing much to coinvince me or anyone else I am wrong.

    •  I've never seen anything like the "slumlord" (13+ / 0-)

      argument, and I've been following politics about as long as HRC claims to have been out there fighting for my views.  I've seen some hard-fought primary campaigns (e.g. Hart/Mondale '84), but I don't ever recall seeing anything like that comment before.

      The "you won't take responsibility for your votes" line was, quite bluntly, the ultimate in chuztpah.  HRC has spent over 5 years refusing to take responsibility for the biggest vote of her Senate career.  More recently, she and her campaign have offered a series of evasions and rationalizations for her K-L vote.

      Yes, Obama has his flaws, most notably a purposeful lack of specificity on domestic policy issues.  Despite those flaws, he'd be light years better than HRC as a nominee.

      Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

      by RFK Lives on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:08:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Barack shoiuld just say... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        RFK Lives, costello7, broui

        ...Hillary campaigns like a Republican. So why should we expect her to govern any differently?

        •  Hillary is a Karl Rove Democrat (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          RFK Lives, Brecht, broui

          In every sense of the word.  She's been "finlandized" - attacked so much, assaulted so much, that she's adopted the pose and tactics of her aggressors.

          She's emerged like a Phoenix from the 1990s reborn as a Karl Rove Democrat, willing to use the "dark arts" to twist every sentence out of context and "inoculate" herself against her own (clear) weaknesses.  She knew that her strategy would be to go negative and go dirty the minute she decided to accept PAC and Lobbyist money, unapologetically.

          Her whole cynical attack on the Reno interview and the Reagan thing is a case-in-point.  Does she honestly believe that Obama is a born-again Reaganite who supports a right-wing ideology?   If she was "confused" by Barack's statement, why didn't she just ask him what he meant instead of immediately launching an attack?  

      •  Obama bought a fucking HOUSE with the guy's help (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        emsprater, bobswern

        at more than $700,000 off, over 2 transactions.

        •  No. Lie again. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          canoeist

          He bought his own house.

          He bought ajoining property from the guy.  Obama already owned his own house.

          Tell the facts straight.

          This story is over a year old.  It has been vetted.  There is nothing to it.  It was above board.  

          "What Washington needs is adult supervision." --BARACK OBAMA

          by broui on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:56:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am telling the facts: Without rezko's (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            bobswern

            participation in TWO deals, Obama would have been unable to buy his house and property. He got discounts of over $700,000 over the course of the two deals.
            You might fool some people here with your spin, but not me.

            •  HIllary's cattle futures. (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              latts, RFK Lives, broui

              Ummm...do you REALLY want to go down that road? Think about it.

            •  Give me a break (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              broui

              The only part of this story that's true is that the original owner had one undivided parcel of land but wanted to sell it as two parcels at the same time, so, in theory, yes, Obama needed someone else to buy the second parcel so he could buy the bigger parcel.    Obama didn't need or couldn't afford to buy the entire parcel whole or both parcels together.  

              So, yes, Rezko ended up being the second buyer.  But Rezko paid fair-market value, as far as I can tell, and to the extent that Obama bought a narrow strip of land from Rezko, Obama paid OVER fair market value to avoid the insinuation that Rezko was kicking back a favor to Obama.  

              Honestly, I've never even seen a coherent explanation for any impropriety here.  Just insinuation and innuendo.  Karl Rove politics again.

              •  If Obama supporters would stop telling fairy (0+ / 0-)

                tales about the deals, and acknowledge what actually occurred, and acknowledge how much money Obama saved with Rezko's help, I'd find their statements that there is nothing to worry about more convincing.

                •  Except Obama did that, to the Sun Times. (0+ / 0-)

                  You're too busy peddling stupid smears to listen.

                  Why not ask whether Hillary Clinton hid the gun that was used to kill her lover Vince Foster?  Both smears have the same troll-factor.

      •  And can you imagine what the GOP will (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Hesiod, RFK Lives, broui

        throw at HILLARY in a GE?

        Hsu, Bill, her papers as a first lady, Bill, her failure on healthcare, Bill, her "35 years of experience", Bill.

        •  You're bringing up Hsu? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          scoff0165

          Hsu also raised money for, and directed fundraisers to, Barack Obama my friend. Check your facts.

          •  Sheesh! STOP THE PISSING WAR! n/t (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            scoff0165

            "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

            by bobswern on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 08:40:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You know what's funny (0+ / 0-)

            In his interview on John Stwart's show, Allen Raymond (author of "How to rig and election: confessions of a reupblican operative") said a classic ploy to enable politicians to keep money from "questionable" sources was to have the donor also give a small amount of money to the opposition candidate. Then, if the issue ever comes up, the dirty politician can simply point to her opponent and say, "But he did it, too".

            Sound familiar?

  •  Projection ... much? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jmknapp, idealistlefty, scoff0165

    I appreciate your views and disagree with much of what you said. But, you're welcome to them.  

    "Terror is nothing other than justice...; it is ... the general principle of democracy applied to our country's most urgent needs." M. Robespierre

    by Bartimaeus Blue on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:54:51 AM PDT

  •  Transitional vs traditional (0+ / 0-)

    when it comes to voting history, Clinton holds the better hand.

    If it's Clinton vs McCain, the younger demographic will be the "player".

    Just food for thawt.

    Some writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them - T Paine

    by breezeview on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:55:27 AM PDT

    •  Voting History? How about Kyl-Lieberman, (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mjd in florida

      or her AUMF vote (made after not reading the NIE)? Hillary is reliant on the same senior voting bloc to get elected as McCain is. Don't kid yourself that she'll be able to explain away her bad votes or win over the same voters that Obama is bringing in now.

      "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

      by blueintheface on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:28:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Talking about voter's voter history. (0+ / 0-)

        Elderly turn out in masse.  Youngers, not so much.  If there is a protracted battle on World of Warcraft they may not make it to the polls.

        Some writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them - T Paine

        by breezeview on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:32:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The "youngers" have been more and more (0+ / 0-)

          energized in the past two elections, rising to almost 50% turnout on 2004. And they are turning out in more numbers again.

          Of course, those numbers can be surpressed just as Hillary tried to do in Iowa. But as we saw in Ohio i 2004, and as we've seen in Nevada in 2008, any demographic or group can be targeted if they pose a threat to the establishment candidate's chances of election.

          But you are free to dismiss these voters if you like. Apparently Hillary's campaign has made this all about women voters and Latinos anyway. I'm sure disenfranching African-Americans and men will be a great strategy for the general election and beyond, though.

          "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

          by blueintheface on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 08:07:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Nostalgia trip! (4+ / 0-)

    I think the "Hillary is killing the Democratic Party" theme was quite the rage around here last November. With the fast pace of modern society, nostalgia is a pretty rapid-fire thing.

    -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

    by Rich in PA on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:55:35 AM PDT

  •  When you have Rahm Emmanuel barking (20+ / 0-)