FEMINISMS: I've been banned from a site!

This is not a can-did-ate diary... well, not really though it does have them in it.

Where I intended to go with this as originally encouraged from my posting of a comment in an open thread has morphed with the dawning of the day and happenings here at dKos both general and specific.

Basically I felt the need to highlight this issue because I was banned from an internet site, SisterTalk by Genia Stevens purporting to be about feminism and further to specifically speak up for the issue of Domestic Violence.

Many of you already know I've dealt with my own violent relationship. I eventually had four broken bones which really were the least of the injuries and in fact I still deal everyday with the residuals of those including pain and a brain injury affecting my processing abilities that makes dealing with the "swarminess" that is inherent in dKos difficult. There's often a comment or issue I wish to address but whether from pain, exhaustion, or needing time to digest I end up just passing it by.

But I can't tell you that I don't often feel intimidated here as well. One reason this is only my third diary. I'm known for my diary sized comments but I suppose on some level those are safer as they are often not seen by all that many (or at least not acknowledge).

On Christmas morning a diary was posted here at dKos (and soon deleted) regarding the presidential candidates stances on Domestic Violence. I'm not after chastising the original poster here. The information was pulled from another site and there should be no reason to question whether that site did their homework as they claimed they had. Except when it comes to the partisanship of candidate support it appears there is no end of lengths people will go to.

~~~~

UPDATED to show the original claim for clarity (sorry everyone):

Apparently, lots of individuals and groups are concerned about domestic violence, except the 2008 Presidential candidates. The only Democratic candidate who [directly] addresses violence against women [on his campaign page] is John Edwards:

Ending Violence Against Women Achieving full equal rights for women includes the right to be free of violence everywhere. Edwards supports efforts to fully fund the Violence Against Women Act, which provides resources for crisis centers, domestic violence shelters and continuing education to law enforcement and the courts. Edwards will also aggressively support political and economic rights for women where they do not exist and supports efforts to reduce violence against women and children around the world.

I didn't find anything on Obama's page [under the Issues tab] on domestic violence; however, I did find an article on his concern with domestic violence in Congo. As a Senator, Clinton was concerned about domestic violence, but in her bid for the Presidency, the issue has disappeared. Shame on her!

Those that are in brackets were not originally there when I first went to the site and started commenting.

~~~~

I went to the original site and posted in the comments essentially the same information I posted here (which is that all the Democratic candidates have done great work regarding DV). However, it didn't go over well there.

In fact, it was greeted rather hostile way. New information was brought in that was also distorted. No big deal. I had other things to do that day.

But when I went back a few days later my comments had been deleted as though they had never existed.

To me this was an attempt to give false truth to the original claim as well as deny that there was any issue with it. I found that to be disgusting.

I had however, saved the comments. Having dealt with the issue of Domestic Violence first hand I tend to remember detail and save evidence. So I reposted them as they are in their entirety included here below.

So here are the comments that lead to my very first banning ever:

So that's how you deal with it?

Delete my comments that point out all your errors? How ironic that you write about abuse when you utilize so many of the behaviors of abusive people.

You've shown me that you are not someone to pay any attention to because you manipulate your message to put yourself in the best light even if that means holding on to being wrong. Too bad anyone bothers to consider what you have to say.

csi | 01.04.08 - 5:44 pm | #

Good thing I kept a copy of the comments. You are completely dishonest. And I can show people now that you are. You even edited other people's comments that mentioned me. How narcissistic.

In 5 minutes of googling I found at least as much as Edwards has on his site, if not even more, from 3 of the other Democrats running on their sites (Obama, Dodd and Richardson while Kucinich has a permanent congressional page devoted to it, has been pushing for a Department of Peace which would cover DV, and has spoken about it on the campaign trail in interviews with the press giving it even more attention). I like Edwards but I despise misleading and false claims such as this one.

csi | 12.25.07 - 8:27 am | #

CSI, please spend another 5 minutes posting the actual results you found in your 5 minutes of Googling.

I finally found Obama's plan to end domestic violence as a sub heading under the PEOPLE tab -- not under the MAIN issues page:

Women. Am I to assume that the fight to end domestic violence is an after-thought, and not a main concern for Obama? Just as rights for gays and lesbians seems to be an after-thought placed in the PEOPLE section and not his MAIN issues page.

As for Dodd, Richardson, and Kucinich: I didn't check their records because I don't see any of those candidates as being serious contenders for the Presidency. I was only concerned with those candidates who I thought had a real chance of winning the Democratic nomination.

But I did go back and check their pages, just to be fair:

SistersTalk | Homepage | 12.25.07 - 10:20 am | #

Richardson makes mention (briefly -- just as Edwards) of the 1994 Violence Against Women Act.

Dodd also briefly mentions the 1994 Violence Against Women Act. I don't feel so bad though, his comment on the Equal Rights Amendment (just below the women's health comment) was even shorter than his comment on protecting women from violence. It was 1 sentence.

SistersTalk | Homepage | 12.25.07 - 10:21 am | #

As for Kucinich, he addresses violence at home in his 2000 campaign and in his 2001 Department of Peace writings. Again, I don't see Kucinich as a serious contender for the Presidency since his fundraising efforts have been nonexistent.

All of the candidates are piggybacking off the 1994 Violence Against Women Act ("oh, I supported that act. pick me for president!"), but very few of them have outlined a comprehensive plan to end domestic violence here in the US.

All of the candidates are concerned about violence against women in the Republic of Congo. There's lots of information on that issue since I guess, at one point, it was a hot issue (for somebody!). But the fact that I have to spend hours hunting for their plans to end violence against women right here in the US really bothers me.

SistersTalk | Homepage | 12.25.07 - 10:22 am | #

CSI, are you really pulling from Kucinich's 2001 "Department of Peace" which he is STILL working to get approved?

We need a President who can get things done. Kucinich's 2001 plan that is STILL in the works does not show he can get things done.

Let's not forget that he's raised very little for his 2008 campaign (again, he can't get anything done!).

I ask again, CSI, are you really pulling from his 2001 plan?

Bradley | 12.25.07 - 11:03 am | #

Jill said I dont see violence against women as a major issue because I dont know anyone who is in an abusive relationship.

There's one of the problems. People don't view something as problematic unless it's happening to them or someone they know. The "media" has been quiet about domestic abuse issues unless it's someone famous or someone in a position of authority. Like Genia said, until domestic abuse issues blow up like the Terri Schiavo story, it won't get the attention it deserves.

To CSI: One paragraph on a candidate's campaign page is not what I would consider "addressing" the issue. It looks more like you threw the issue in there just to be on the safe side.

I have to disagree with Genia on the Obama issue. It's not possible to address all issues on a single page. The fact that Obama has a separate page where he lists all his sub categories is impressive in my eye.

Mark | 12.25.07 - 11:29 am | #

csi | 01.04.08 - 6:02 pm | #

And then the rest of the deleted comments:

Wow... so it goes from claiming they have nothing on their sites to not having enough and then not being viable candidates?

That's dishonest.

Not to mention (which of course you didn't) that Hillary established with Janet Reno the office at the DOJ on Violence Against Women and Biden is the one who WROTE the Violence Against Woman Act (VAWA) which established the National Hotline (which at least 1.5 million woman have used) and also funded several programs including counseling and support programs for children and their families who have suffered from DV which my daughter and I personally benefitted from.

FROM BIDEN:

Stopping Violence Against Women: Joe Biden led the fight to criminalize violence against women and to hold batterers truly accountable by writing the ground-breaking Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) in the 1990s. It encouraged states to set up coordinated community responses to domestic violence and rape; spurred states to pass hundreds of laws prohibiting family violence; and provided resources to create shelters so battered women abused by husbands and boyfriends had a safe place to go. The law also established a national hotline for abused women that over 1.5 million have used for help. By training law enforcement and prosecutors to treat abuse like the crime it is by arresting and convicting abusive husbands instead of telling them to take a walk around the block, and by empowering women to make changes in their lives, domestic violence is down 50 percent and rape is down 60 percent nationwide. However, there remains work to be done, so in 2007, the Senator introduced the National Domestic Violence Volunteer Attorney Network Act, an innovative initiative that would recruit volunteer lawyers and match them with domestic violence victims.

Nevermind, just MOCK him for piggybacking on his own legislation.

But hey, here's one on Obama that you missed and are attempting to downplay as if it just doesn't exist.

http://www.dailykos.com/... 408621

[here's a working link to that diary]

And you missed Richardson and Dodd as well. And no, I'm not pulling from Kucinich's 2001 page. But you might want to check that line of reasoning on Dennis as it very much could have John's name substituted in similar statements.

Diminishing my words does not give truth to yours. It's not my homework to do or misleading statements that I've put up. That sort of tactic along with several others I've seen here is very much the sort an abuser would employ so there is a certain amount of irony being displayed here.

It doesn't help your candidates to publish false and manipulative lies about the other candidates. It gives the appearance your candidate is desperate and grasping which I find personally annoying because I do really like Edwards. Attacking me for pointing out the truth doesn't make reality any different. Please do something that those who commit violence against others rarely do and take responsibility for your words and actions.

Please accept my apologies for having other things to do on this holiday and not addressing the issues you brought up as quickly as you would have me.

csi | 12.25.07 - 6:39 pm | #

csi | 01.04.08 - 6:03 pm | #

Well, those were of course deleted as well and I was:

Banned by webmaster. Your comments will not be added

The main issue I had at the time was the dishonesty and trying to appear better than it seemed she is by not allowing disagreement no matter how true.

But also what bothers me is that by denying what the other candidates have to say and have done on the issue of Domestic Violence is to say that unless they do so much it will be seen as nothing, even less than nothing. Might as well do nothing.

That is in many ways what allows Domestic Violence to flourish as it does. We don't see it. I didn't even see it when I was deep in it. I thought it had to be more than it was and when it was I was much more stuck not to mention that by then no one else would see what was happening to me.

But it seems we do that in so many areas of our lives. One of the reasons I came to dKos in the first place was because I wanted to expose those companies we support everyday without thinking much about it but which are very much a part of the reason the Republicans are in charge.

Over the last couple weeks as I mentioned earlier in a diary I let myself get sucked up into today, I've been referred to as anti-science, a Luddite, "you people" with the addition that I am well-fed so willing to let millions starve because I'm unable to understand hunger, as well as dismissed as a bible thumper and my favorite which is a reference to being brain dead. Of course I've had thrown at me that I must be off my meds as well which is just about as obnoxious as they can come but it was clarified that I was not being called insane because legally that comes down to whether I know the difference between right and wrong. Yes, I've even had one person attached to my comment in what I can only imagine was that there was no other answer to what I present, alluding that I had been the one calling her a troll, and that it is sexist to assume just because of her profession that she is male which I'd not done either.

None of these are things I would have remotely pegged myself as being or doing.

Are we that willing to resist truth to hold on to the ideas we have? Do we need to label and dismiss others in such ways? Is what we hold on to that fragile?

~~~~

Anyway, I've run out of time. Please take this where you will and hopefully not into the candidate bashing. I will answer and attend as I am able.

Thanks for letting me have this time.

•  My standard advise for those dealing with DV

  A repeat of parts of other comments I've made on dKos here so people can quickly access the info. The comments are from Mrs White trash poet's diary, Slightly Bruised, but not Broken. as well as Domestic Violence Isn't Just a Woman's Problem by AmericanHope:

  It seemed so hard to find information I could relate to when I went through this that I want people to be able to find it easier.

  The best site I found related to Domestic Violence is the Mid-Valley Women's Crises Service Center especially the page on Co-dependent or Abused?

  Another great site even though it mostly relates to work bullies but very much applies to the feelings one goes through when in an impossible relationship is BullyOnline.org. Check out their page on PTSD and how it relates to what someone is going through when in a no-win relationship. The crazy-making that is happening does NOT mean you are crazy.

  Another avenue to check out is narcissism. Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is not as rare as professionals would have you think. NPD is a classic cause of domestic violence and once people realize there is no magic pill or program to fix the problem it helps in being able to break free.

  Why Does He Do That? Inside the minds of angry and controlling men by Lundy Bancroft (Powell's link Union, independent) simply is a must have book if you or anyone you know is going through an abuse situation, physical or not.

  So far the only documented cure is Abuse Intervention programs as they were developed by Emerge out of Cambridge (which Lundy Bancroft above is from). Anger Management classes don't help as it isn't a problem with anger but control. Even then the programs require at least a year and still are only successful a pitiful 20% or less of the time and usually have to be court ordered before anyone will go. Unfortunately a more common outcome of the programs is the abuser learns better, more acceptable, more covert ways to control and abuse.

  Thank you Mrs White trash poet for doing this diary and getting this out there. So many people think it's all taken care of through social services but the truth is 9 women for every 1 that gets in are turned away from shelters which are always struggling for money and even then the allowable stay is so short the woman usually ends up back with her abuser.

  25 percent of current relationships involve abuse and in 97% of those the abuser is male.

  It's so easy to say, "Why doesn't she just leave" but a more appropriate question is, "Why doesn't he just stop?"

  Family and Friends' Guide to Domestic Violence: How to Listen, Talk and Take Action When Someone You Care About is Being Abused by Elaine Weiss.

  I've only seen this at Amazon but it will give you a better idea how to deal with your mom and the very real frustrations and feelings of powerlessness you are going through as she comes to terms with the relationship she's in which can be very paralyzing but is not her fault. You'll get a much better idea of just what you can do too.

  This is an additional book that has since become available and I haven't read it yet but it seems like the right stuff:

  Helping Her Get Free: A Guide for Families and Friends of Abused Women (Paperback)

  by Susan Brewster

  
  

  
  

  Another great book also by Lundy Bancroft for those who have children whether still with the abuser or not called, When Dad Hurts Mom: Helping Your Children Heal the Wounds of Witnessing Abuse.

  I wish you and your family all the best. It's takes time and understanding but it can get better. Much better.

  Okay, another from the same diary:

  My ex went through a batterer intervention program and actually completed it but in reality only modified his behavior which led me to look into the programs and how they work.

  Those who administer the programs don't say the participant graduated because that implies success and even if there is no more arrests or court problems it does not mean success. Even with completion the recidivism rate is rather high.

  Here's a great page with some abstracts on the known outcomes of Abuse Intervention programs in getting abusers to even go, complete the program and not return to the behaviors.

  However, you are absolutely correct. Anger Management is ineffective because it is not a problem with anger but control.

  Couple's counselling is another ineffective approach and actually is rather harmful because the abuser is so manipulative it gets twisted to the detriment of the abused.

  So far the only program that does have any effect is the Abuse/Batterer Intervention programs.

  A main reason Abuse Intervention programs are not successful is what it takes to even get someone to attend them. If not court ordered as most are (85%), then it usually takes the near-loss of the relationship to get someone motivated enough to attend or the fear of being court-ordered and having that on the record in family/divorce court.

  A great overview of how extensive and expensive and time-consuming Abuse Intervention programs are is on this Alternatives to Domestic Aggression page.

  It's important for the abused to know how the programs work and how to tell if they are working and the book by Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That? has a whole chapter devoted to just that subject.

  In my case all the program did was show him how to control and get away with it. In that way he learned very well from the program. The abuse was even more incidious because I couldn't put a finger on it or describe it to others like I could with the broken bones. He was smart enough to manipulate the experts into thinking he was getting it and even a role model for the others because he figured out what they were looking for and gave it to them and lapped up their praise, even telling me how much they loved him.

  However, I whole-heartedly suggest anyone who's been a victim try to get into Abuse Recovery groups. It can be a miracle to someone who's felt all alone for years.

  A lot of people suggested anti-depressants and I think they are fine and good and glad they are out there and there is no reason not to give them a try but there is no pill that will make being abused okay.

  There's a lot of bad info/advice out there. Try not to let it get to you (easier said than done) and do what you have to for the future but take each day (or each moment if you need to) as it comes and soon it will be better.

  One thing to try is leaving a message on the Mid-Valley Crisis Center website message boards or even calling their hotline. Even if they aren't in your area, they will do what they can and for the most part really seem to be on top of things (given the lack of resources all DV shelters have to deal with).

  The important thing to remember and that I wished I'd discovered much sooner is that it isn't what one have that makes a difference with children, but what one can give of oneself. A decent place to sleep and good food with a lot of love makes up for pretty much everything including toys, tvs, cars, designer anything... and it's a lot easier to clean up.

  And breathe! Keep breathing.

  ~~~~

  Finally this is a good book to help get closure -- so many people told me I needed to forgive and that it would be for me but some things just seem unforgivable (like Bush):

  How Can I Forgive You?: The Courage to Forgive, the Freedom Not to

  
  by Janis Abrams Spring

  Here's more for dealing with children and others:

  Teen Dating Violence Happens

  Teen Relationship website

  ~~~~

  The Love is Not Abuse site

  You can click and download the handbooks from this site or order copies:

  A Teen's Handbook

  A Parent's Guide to Teen Dating Violence

  A Parent's Handbook (Parents of Pre-Teens)

  Tough Talk: What boys need to know about relationship abuse

  A Women's Handbook

  
  Informative Guide Offers Techniques on Talking
  
  to Friends, Family or Coworkers

  Handbooks

  In 1998, the program's focus turned to education and the first in a series of handbooks was created. Titled A Parent's Handbook: How to Talk to Your Children About Developing Healthy Relationships and developed in conjunction with Dr. Richard Gallagher, director of the Parenting Institute at New York University's Child Study Center, the handbook offers parents straightforward advice to help guide their children into positive and fulfilling peer and dating relationships.

  During the next three years, Liz Claiborne created three more handbooks in the series. The second is titled A Woman's Handbook: A Practical Guide to Discussing Relationship Abuse. Written in collaboration with the Family Violence Prevention Fund, this booklet helps women as concerned bystanders reach out to friends, family, neighbors and coworkers they suspect may be involved in an abusive relationship.

  The next handbook, What You Need To Know About Dating Violence: A Teen's Handbook, follows the story of a teenage couple in a violent relationship. It includes special sections to help teens understand dating violence and provides them with tools to deal with the issue.

  As a follow-up to the teen handbook, Liz Claiborne produced a dating violence awareness and education handbook specifically targeted to parents of teens. Titled A Parent's Guide to Teen Dating Violence: 10 Questions to Start the Conversation, the guide offers parents and guardians of teens language, conversation starters and facts to help them open channels of communication.

  by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:38:37 PM PDT

  •  Tipped + rec'ed

    That may be the first time I've done so in a diary in which the length of the tip jar exceeded the length of the diary.  ;)

    And to think some people think we censor people here!

    by wiscmass on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:48:12 PM PDT

    •  :)

      Thank you!

      I'm just glad I'm not the only one to comment on this diary.

      ~~~~

      Hadn't even considered the tip jar might be bigger than the diary. Not that my comments don't go to great lengths. :)

      I do think I agonized over what to put in my tip jar for a lot longer than I did the diary itself.

      ^{Nice to see you here wiscmass, congrats on your big move!}

      by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:51:37 PM PDT

      •  Thanks

        Good to see you too.

        Now I may disappear for a few days -- I have about three weeks of work to do between tomorrow morning and Monday night!

        by wiscmass on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:52:54 PM PDT

      •  Tipped, recced and hotlisted too!

        For all those fabulous links in your tip jar.  I want to keep those accessible.

        As for your diary, well, on the one hand, it frustrates the hell out of me the way people can get into such nasty, hostile spats here.  I've been lucky enough to avoid being in the middle of any.  There have been the occasional comment responses to me that got under my skin, but I usually manage to just let it go, or at worst, slather my dig back with some expression of appreciation for their comment and/or some expression that maybe I was the one who dodn't express myself clearly enough the first time, let me try again.

        But on the other hand, I'm feeling this tremendously paradoxical urge to pick a big juice fight with someone, just for the astonishing absurdity of it all.

        by DebtorsPrison on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:58:05 PM PDT

        •  There is a real talent...

          to being able to defuse hot conversations and I'm very envious of those who are capable of it as I tend to want to avoid any and all conflict but go into fight/defend mode if I feel cornered. I have to seriously push myself to make a lot of the comments I do. But I do try really hard to take the venom out before I hit post. :)

          Have to admit though I do want to on occasion just go wildly off too. Maybe we can stage a diary to do just that with each other!

          ~~~~

          One of the nice things about dKos is we don't get to delete other people's comments (or our own). I do think that keeps us more honest.

          ^{Thanks for the lovely encouragement and words :)}

          by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 08:22:42 PM PDT

  •  Another resource.

    A former classmate of mine wrote a book based on her work with victims of domestic violence - it's mostly targeted toward African-American churches, but it might be useful to some people here:
    Monica Coleman, The Dinah Project.

    by dirkster42 on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:51:01 PM PDT

    •  Yes, definitely! :)

      Please. I hope everyone feels welcome to bring all resources in for sharing.

      This one in particular is very appropriate tonight. Thanks dirkster42!

      by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:53:51 PM PDT

  •  I'm afraid you will find

    that reason very seldom wins out when emotions are engaged.  Many sites were constructed as a trumpet for singular points of view.  This usually precludes admitting anyone whose views differ in any way.  That's why you were jumped on, and why you were banned.

    I usually just avoid sites like that.  You aren't going to get your point across - no matter how much you try - so why waste brain cells trying?

    Good diary, my dear.  I hope you post more.

    by The Fat Lady Sings on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 08:47:55 PM PDT

•  CSI - appreciate any Feminisms diary but

  had a hard time following all the 'quotes'.

  As a victim of abuse myself I am tipping and rec'd for the outstanding info in your comment.

  by AntKat on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:49:52 PM PDT

  •  I agree with you

    Thanks for the mojo. :)

    Part of the problem is with the holoscan comments which are atrocious but I also just couldn't figure out a better presentation and then ran out of time.

    Of course, the way I feel about diaries is that if I waited until I felt comfortable this wouldn't get published until sometime next year.

    by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:01:16 PM PDT

    •  I'm still confused

      What did the original story say that you were responding to?  Did it say that the Democratic candidates didn't care about domestic violence?

      It's actually a fairly typical anti-feminist tactic for someone to go to a website look only at the front page and then say feminists don't care about certain topics.  It's pretty despicable.

      by Unstable Isotope on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:42:03 PM PDT

      •  Here you go...

        From specific post at the site where I was banned:

        Apparently, lots of individuals and groups are concerned about domestic violence, except the 2008 Presidential candidates. The only Democratic candidate who [directly] addresses violence against women [on his campaign page] is John Edwards:

        Ending Violence Against Women Achieving full equal rights for women includes the right to be free of violence everywhere. Edwards supports efforts to fully fund the Violence Against Women Act, which provides resources for crisis centers, domestic violence shelters and continuing education to law enforcement and the courts. Edwards will also aggressively support political and economic rights for women where they do not exist and supports efforts to reduce violence against women and children around the world.

        I didn't find anything on Obama's page [under the Issues tab] on domestic violence; however, I did find an article on his concern with domestic violence in Congo. As a Senator, Clinton was concerned about domestic violence, but in her bid for the Presidency, the issue has disappeared. Shame on her!

        by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:50:25 PM PDT

  •  Thank you for your feedback AntKat

    I think I fixed it better though I apologize that I didn't get what you meant at first (there's no way you could know what I'd left out since I'm supposed to be telling you...). If not for your gentle prodding I might not have realized that something was missing even though it felt as if something was. This was a very disjointed day for me and has felt out of sorts in all kinds of ways and I was afraid I'd do something just like that.

    Are you a current victim of abuse or have you broken free?

    by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 11:33:40 PM PDT

•  I'd say the diarist should were that "banned"

  badge with great pride.  

  by oculus on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:50:57 PM PDT

•  also tipped and rec'd

  important diary, CSI. thank you for this.

  by Avila on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:51:29 PM PDT

•  Great diary about an

  extremely important issue.

  I finally found Obama's plan to end domestic violence as a sub heading under the PEOPLE tab -- not under the MAIN issues page

  When I read this, my initial reaction was, "Er...women aren't people?  Okeydokey."

  by Sinister Rae on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:53:25 PM PDT

  •  Nice point!

    Part of DV is that one can do nothing correctly. That it is there at all on their sites is a step in the correct direction.

    I suppose if I'd really been on it I would have taken a look at the Republican candidates to see what they had to say about the issue and where it might be on their sites.

    by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:59:13 PM PDT

•  Don't take it personally

  There are many opinionated people who are not used to adult peers in verbal combat who can and do remain pros and go out to dinner after the combat.  

  It feels very personal to some people.  

  Also, a lot of comfort zones are being challenged. It's not an accident that so many Americans refuse to talk about politics - for them it gets inflamed. To me, if you're flammable, politics is not for you.

  As for the banning, they got the wrong person.

  Thanks.  

  by kck on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:55:18 PM PDT

•  It's true....

  what you said about how people don't even think about certain issues unless they affect themselves or someone they know.  It's such a sad example of how selfish people can be.
  I'm sorry for everything you have been throught CSI Bentonville.  Thanks for sharing.  Sharing always makes me feel better. :-)

  by angrybird on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:56:41 PM PDT

  •  Casting off the shame too

    When we talk it's no longer something that has a hold over us.

    Also, there is a great deal of processing that can happen in talking and writing. Plus it frees up that space it occupied before letting it flow out. There is huge value in those who just listen.

    One reason I talk about DV is that I want others to know it can happen especially to those going through it because when it's happening, it feels so very isolating and shameful. As though you are the only one it is happening to, that no one will believe you, that you can't quite believe it yourself...

    ~~~~

    As to the other issues, I've been very frustrated by the Republican tactics that have been used on others here so that people can hold on to ideas or the way they do things that actually are quite beneficial to Republicans. On the other hand, I know that I used to feel very much the same way and was just as deaf to hearing what others had to say because that meant I'd have to make different choices. There's a lot of work in making that change but oddly not so much after that.

    Thanks so much for stopping by angrybird. I've enjoyed your diaires and comments too and of course a friend of PerfectStormer is likely a friend of mine. :)

    by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:37:18 PM PDT

    •  Same here!

      I didn't know you were friends with PS; him and I actually know each other in "real Life."  LOL!
      I love so many people on this site anyway. :-)

      by angrybird on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:43:54 PM PDT

•  Thanks, CSI

  Important and informative diary.

  by Light Emitting Pickle on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:57:55 PM PDT

•  I do have a question...not to be a contrarian but

  ...regarding DV and the Constitutional role of the Executive, what exactly do people think is appropriate as a Presidential position on DV? Is a stated position even necessary? It seems to me to be out of his/her jurisdiction or scope, albeit the always useful bully pulpit...

  by kck on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 06:59:45 PM PDT

  •  Hmmm... good questions to consider

    I suppose in many ways this is an issue that affects people in general in ways that other crimes do, only in much bigger numbers (I've seen that at least one-third to half of all women will deal with an abusive partner).

    Another comment of mine I ran across from way back asked why an abusive man was society's problem when he is the one with the issue.

    This is what I wrote then:

    Your fighter friend is not one I would say deserves anything but the promise of jail time if he doesn't complete a batterer's intervention program. Not that it would be successful either but it's so far proven to be the only one that is with people of his type. Of course he doesn't see himself as having a problem. That is one of the markers of abusive people such as him. And why should the program be a social program supported somewhat by the community and taxes including jail enforcement? Because forcing his attendence is more for the people he is in contact with than for him. It is an education program that benefits a great many in society and might just save us the costs of prosecuting him for murder/attempted murder and all the costs associated with that as in prison, health care, disability, etc.

    The costs just of his incarceration in prison would be far more than a welfare "queen" taking care of her own children.

    by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:11:16 PM PDT

    •  Boy, whoever asked that question must not have...

      ...much exposure to foster care...

      People have all kinds of experiences and "positions on the path" as I  think about it but it is sad to hear a question like that...You answered very well.  

      by kck on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:22:27 PM PDT

    •  If you beat up a stranger

      it can be a felony, and the cops will arrest you. Beat up your wife or girlfriend, and the cops willtake you away if the law requires it--but you likely won't do time. COPS, BTW, have a high rate of DV, just as does the military (the miltiary's DV rate is soemthign like 3-5 times the civilian level)..

      by irishwitch on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 08:54:08 PM PDT

      •  Yes excellent point!

        There is a great page at the Seattle Post Intelligencer paper on Police and Domestic Violence but it didn't exist until the Tacoma Police Chief killed his wife and then himself.

        It makes it much harder to ask the police for help too as they tend to be sympathetic to the abuser (I will never trust the police again) yet oddly the abusers tend to dislike each other and think they aren't as bad as the other in the batterer intervention groups.

        by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 09:08:30 PM PDT

        •  ANd in the military, it's base security who

          handle the investiugation. We had a swinging group on the bext to last base, and none of the wives wanted to aprticiapte--and it was run by security personnel.  One yougn woman committed suicide as a result of it all.Turened out to be one of ourneighbors up to hios ears in it.

          by irishwitch on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 09:14:39 PM PDT

  •  Well,

    Presidents put forward policy plans on healthcare and education, why can't they put one forward on domestic violence?

    Just to use an example - Obama's plan would take a law that was passed in IL (one he introduced and helped to get passed), and make it a Federal law.

       Support Victims’ Economic Security: Victims of domestic violence often find themselves fired for missing work in order to find shelter or to get a court restraining order, even after receiving permission from their employers. Others have experienced harassment by abusers that interferes with work performance. Studies show that between one quarter and one half of domestic violence victims report that they have lost a job due to domestic violence. And a high percentage of sexual assault victims have reported that they have lost their jobs in the aftermath of the crime.

       In the Illinois State Senate, Barack Obama introduced and passed one of the most comprehensive sets of employment law protections for domestic and sexual violence victims in the nation. The Victims’ Economic Security and Safety Act (VESSA) ensures that victims of domestic violence can seek treatment without losing their jobs. Barack Obama believes that similar legislation to what he passed in Illinois is necessary on the federal level.

       Obama fully supports legislation such as the Security and Financial Empowerment Act, which gives victims of domestic violence greater economic stability and he is committed to enacting such legislation as president. As president, Obama will also expand the purposes for which leave can be taken under the Family Medical Leave Act to include reasons related to domestic violence or sexual assault.

    Too many women suffer in this country as a result of domestic violence. We should be doing more to help them - and for Presidential candidates to have a position on DV and a policy plan - and for them to discuss that and put it forward on a Federal level, well, that's getting a discussion started, and that's a discussion that needs to take place as long as there are victims of domestic violence.

    (And obviously, hopefully the candidate wins and enacts that policy and helps victims.)

    by Elise on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:12:09 PM PDT

    •  Yes, thank you

      I think the government should be looking out for our ability to survive. On the other hand I wonder why the government feels it should be worrying about whether they are encouraging sex or not when they shouldn't be involved in that at all when it came to allowing Plan B to be available over-the-counter.

      by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:22:45 PM PDT

    •  That is a good law

      And I think constitutional as a nationwide law.  

      The law I'd like to see: If you are convicted of domestic violence, you lose your precious second amendment rights.

      I like guns. But if someone is capable of domestic violence, they are incapable of being smart or restrained enough to have guns, until proven otherwise. And I'd make that a hella tough standard.

      by psycho liberal on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:26:55 PM PDT

      •  I see DV as a state level crime...

        ...but as a gun owner I couldn't agree more with you on ownership rights being lost.  

        by kck on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:35:44 PM PDT

      •  Mmm, I think

        that if you're convicted of a felony, you lose that right. Isn't domestic violence a felony? (If it's not, I'm pretty surprised. Maybe I shouldn't be.)

        by Shaviv on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:35:59 PM PDT

        •  A lot of times no it's not

          Many times simple assault against a stranger is seen and taken as much more serious even when the injuries are usually much more severe in domestic violence.

          Further, DV is one of those where the victim is often encouraged by the legal system when there is children involved to just go along to get along with the person who committed the offense even when the legal system is being used to harass with filings for custody and such. In fact, the victim gets chastised a lot by the judges, mediators, lawyers, police, etc.

          by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:46:11 PM PDT

        •  Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

          If it's a first offense, most likely not...unless it's with an actual weapon. Some states define "weapon" differently.

          by Elise on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:46:58 PM PDT

      •  No firearms if restraining order against you

        Of course a restraining order is just a piece of paper.

        ~~~~

        Dodd did get the Violence Against Women Act passed which is national and includes a lot of great programs as well as making it an issue to be dealt with rather than hidden away.

        by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:41:53 PM PDT

        •  Oops... Biden not Dodd

          I guess I just like all the Ds in such a short name (4 being my favorite number) so he sticks in my mind (plus I was/am very tired).

          Biden authored the VAWA legislation and worked hard for years to get it passed. Very important federal act that has been under a lot of nibbling and even almost complete vanishing under Bush and the Republican congress he once enjoyed.

          by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 11:14:19 PM PDT

    •  And by extension

      the President appoints the Secretary of Labor, whose department is responsible for enforcing fair employment policy which would include granting leave to take care of these matters.

      by Cali Scribe on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:30:01 PM PDT

      •  Good point

        As a female manager, I experienced many incidents over the years of women who avoid telling their mgrs about DV...I've had women come to me more than a few times rather than go their own mgr.  So many managers are abusive themselves in the first place...

        by kck on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:44:48 PM PDT

    •  Wow, that Ill law is the best example ...

      ...of my favorite attribute of Obama's history. I really like the angles from which he approaches such problems, like in this case, where you can't make the problem go away but the pain can be mitigated. I'm going to research if we have such legislation in Ca...

      The bully pulpit of a president is very powerful. They can be very effective on their pet issues too.

      One issue I raised here a few years ago is surfacing now...DV and murders by returning vets. This is an example that we sadly have history for, a robust knowledge base, and the feds are undoubtedly responsible. The NYT had a front pager last Sun, I think it was, on the murder issue but the DV issue needs attention now.  

      by kck on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:32:50 PM PDT

  •  I think appointing judges...

    ..who didn't earn their degrees from evangelical Christian law schools makes a big difference, in cases from abortion to rape to DV to pay equity to....etc., etc....

    by DebtorsPrison on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 08:04:56 PM PDT

  •  A very concrete responsibility of hte president

    is to make sure that VAWA (the Violence Against Women Act) is funded. This ensures that law enforcement has the resources to deal with DV. It also makes sure that we are collecting important statistics about DV---it is a lot harder to ignore a problem when you have solid numbers on it. Bush's approach has been if you don't collect the statistics, you can pretend that the problem doesn't exist!

    Predictably, Bush has tended to cut funding for VAWA. I know that Clinton has been personally involved in insuring funding for VAWA. She has been involved with the act since it became law when she was first lady.

    by heartofblue on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 09:52:21 PM PDT

•  First banning ever?

  What's your problem, anyway?

  ;-)

  by Free Spirit on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:06:32 PM PDT

  •  I'm too easily intimidated :)

    And so don't put myself out there as much as I should. :)

    I am working on that issue... I did go through the T'roll Wars here which did give me a strength and courage I'd been missing before... and without which I'm sure I'd have never achieved Trusted User status otherwise since I wouldn't have commented much to actually earn it.

    Truth is, dKos has overall been very healing for me after the relationship I came out of.

    by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:15:11 PM PDT

    •  I'm sorry you've felt intimidated

      The sad truth is there are a lot of jerks out there and a lot of them use the internet.  One thing I always keep in mind is that what people say to you is a reflection on them and not a reflection on you.  They are just showing the world what kind of person they are.

      by Unstable Isotope on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:55:27 PM PDT

      •  Thank you for your thoughts :)

        I was reading somewhere just a couple days ago (and now I need to find that link) that we as humans need violence as much as sex. That we actually seek out fights to satisfy some primal urge.

        You are absolutely correct that when it comes to something such as these that the issue is usually with the other person. It is hard though for someone who's been in a relationship whether intimate or original family where they are held responsible for everything that happens to make that detachment. It was in fact one of the harder concepts for me to get in the recovery groups and counseling I had.

        Even here on dKos though I've seen the might makes right tactics used to intimidate people into giving up. It tends to fluster and cause the person who's getting the attention to make stupid mistakes that are further taken up and used. It's been hard but I've injected myself into some of those fully expecting to get pummeled.

        by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 08:16:28 PM PDT

    •  a forum like this one is actually

      a safe place to practice being more aggressive and assertive. There are relatively few consequences to going a little too far---you usually get a lot of second chances---so you can feel free to step out of your comfort zone and see what happens. Of course, you will also get some more practice at apologizing ;-) but humility is good for the soul.

      by heartofblue on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 09:59:06 PM PDT

•  Thanks for writing CSI :-)

  I'm glad you've written your third diary ever for Feminisms.

  Your tip jar is a diary in itself, so thanks for that too.

  by Elise on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:07:02 PM PDT

•  The president has an IMPORTANT role

  Although the president may not be able to directly pass legislation on this issue, a president who takes an active role in publicly denouncing domestic violence and raising its profile as a social problem will do a great service for the nation.

  by psycho liberal on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:20:42 PM PDT

  •  Bush can't and won't

    and neither will any other Republican because fundies  firmly believe that a spouse or father has not just right but the duty to chastise (physically, if necessary) his disobedient spouse or daughter.  There's a lot of DV among fundamentalists of the Christian stripe as well as the muslim extremist.

    by irishwitch on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 08:50:23 PM PDT

•  On topic, but tangential (immigration)

  While an immigration officer, I encountered a large number of immigrant farm workers with arrests and convictions for domestic violence. Maybe the number wasn't that large, but just seemed like it because we had to process every one for deportation proceedings.

  US immigration laws treat domestic violence in an interesting way: victims can win Green Cards for seeking help and protection from the abuser, and the abuser can have his Green Card revoked (and thus get deported).

  I had the idea that anti-DV groups could take out ads in Spanish language papers with the line "si no deja la violencia domestica, si viene la migra". (trans: "if you don't stop domestic violence, immigration will come")

  Probably a terrible idea in its current formation, but this seemed like there might be a good idea in there somewhere.

  by opendna on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:52:06 PM PDT

  •  Very interesting perspective

    I imagine that even with that idea that one can stay if seeking protection that there is fear in being discovered as "illegal" (a word I hate when applied to a person). That allows it to flourish.

    There is huge intimidation even when there isn't that wrinkle. I had the threat of custody put on me nearly from the day my daughter was born and then later I was told I could leave but not take my girl (as if I was going to leave her behind). There were places I could go but not where both of us could go... or that we both could go but not be able to continue some sense of normalcy such as keeping her in school.

    Jobs, pets, friends, family... those all get used to intimidate.

    I wish I knew an answer off the top of my head for the issue you bring to light (though I will be pondering it). But it is true that DV knows no boundaries of race, country of origin, class or income level.

    by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 08:08:00 PM PDT

•  Important diary, CSI, and

  an important tip jar as well.  Thank you.

  by edsbrooklyn on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:58:40 PM PDT

•  Thank you for sharing and for the resources

  you've suggested.

  Unfortunately/fortunately, they'll come in handy for a close family member whose significant other is being a significant jerk.

  by Waterbug on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 08:56:45 PM PDT

  •  Oh, I'm very glad to be able to help

    though very sorry there is a need.

    I cannot recommend highly enough the book, Why does he do that? by Lundy Bancroft

    Please let me know how it goes and thanks for being there to support. It is one of the reasons I wanted to do this is because there is usually at least one person who needs what I have to say each time I do. I appreciate that you let me know as well.

    by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 09:12:23 PM PDT

    •  I will keep you posted as events warrant..

      (rats--had a comment all typed and then my fingers tangled. Now I'll try to recreate...)

      We (family) will have to convince our relative that any potential financial loss resulting from the breakup is worth the benefit of leaving the stressful situation.

      Thanks for the personalized followup.

      by Waterbug on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 09:23:10 PM PDT

      •  Oh yeah, the sooner the better

        We have this investment issue that keeps us entangled. That's part of why I was so glad Dr. Phil was around (yes, he's all I had) even though I'm not sure how much I like him. He had a few great simple sayings that I could hold onto which are:

        I'd rather be healthy alone, than sick here with you

        Which really is amazing and better though we fear being alone which also tends to keep us in bad situations...

        and:

        The only thing worse than being with someone not good for us for X amount of years is being with them for X amount of years and one day.

        Which ironically was close to something I'd said to the ex's sister when she was talking about how many years she'd been with her partner who was also abusive, "Yes, and next year it will be 8 years..."

        I ended up with 15 years in and kept bargaining in such as, it's not great but at least he's not cheating on me, and when that was no longer true it became at least he doesn't hit me...

        But yeah, financially it can come down to whether one can put a price on life and how much would get spent to recover injuries including those done to the soul. The physical abuse never happens before the psychological (which can take many forms) has been happening.

        by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 11:09:02 PM PDT

•  Great diary, CSI.

  You do always write good ones.

  Nice to see you around as well.  

  I'd comment more but I have a raging headache.

  by tryptamine on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 08:59:36 PM PDT

  •  I'm always happy to see you :)

    I've been fighting my own whatever today too and even took a nap so I could be sure to be awake for this. But I can't say I feel on top of it tonight. It wasn't until Unstable Isotope mentioned it that I realized how little sense I had made and I'm still not sure if it does.

    Glad you could be here even if you don't feel well and I hope that you do soon.

    by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 09:56:58 PM PDT

    •  Thanks.

      I think I was just exhausted yesterday.  Mentally and physically.  All the bitterness (and abusiveness, as you said) here has really been getting to me.  I've been trying to head off as much of that as I can but I think it's doing me more damage than it's doing this community any good.  No one wants to listen to anyone anymore....  It's like we're all talking to walls.  I may not be able to stick around much longer, but at least you have my email address still, so if you need a break or a sympathetic listener or anything, feel free to write me. :)

      Anyway, I thought the diary made sense, even if you didn't necessarily reach it in a straight line.  Not everything is easy or straight-forward, but not every explanation needs to be.  A little connect-the-dots is good once and awhile, and I hope you'll take that as the sincere compliment that I mean it to be.  

      In fact, that makes me wonder: are you an artist or involved in any creative acts?  I think you'd be a good one, and you certainly have a lot to say that might sometimes require something other than words.

      by tryptamine on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 11:09:58 AM PDT

      •  :) -- uh... no, PLEASE don't go!!!!

        First, yes...I come from an artistic line. Eerie t. My grandfather was a commercial artist and very talented. My grandmother on the other side had talent but it was discouraged and criticized. Now my cousin is a professional artist in NYC and her work has been in the New Yorker several time. I started off as a kid as being quite artistic. Very much a sketcher especially of horses but also faces. Good at nearly everything else such as painting, sculpting, jewelry, although some things really escaped me such as the whole interior decorating... yet I had a real eye, talent and love of graphics. First my mom killed the first described and then the ex.

        I do think our creativity gets stifled in abusive situations and that you have hit on that. I did ask my daughter's art teachers if they had considered doing classes for those in abuse recovery. But I think the brain injury for me more than anything is standing in my way currently. It certainly was tested and I, as you mention, don't do things in any sort of straight line linear way anymore. The tester had never seen anything like it.

        ~~~~

        Maybe my next diary should be that "Don't Go" subject.

        I keep seeing it from the best who have been here at dKos and it breaks my heart. We need to stick it out together and keep putting out diaries that aren't so vicious so we have alternatives. And not let those that suck our soul take over our world just as we can't all escape to Canada to free ourselves of the Neo-Con nightmare.

        But, yeah... at the same time I'm tired of it happening directly to me but also others. I'm still up against those who triggered me yesterday with the latest being accused of being someone who would label him as he then goes in to define me (wrongly) as why it's not worth it to him to give me a real answer even though he asked for one from me. Obviously he doesn't have anything better. Nice though if people would admit to that or at least not try to tear others down to protect their beliefs they clutch onto.

        And people I normally admire are extremely short-tempered and borderline abusive as well. Though I do think a lot of the abusive behavior and accusations of abuse by those who are most abusive is to resist intelligence.

        So, I'm feeling the need to pull away as well.

        Yes... email. I certainly owe you one to catch you up one the other issues driving my exhaustion.

        by CSI Bentonville on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 01:24:00 PM PDT

        •  Honestly,

          it is people like you that are the reason I've stayed.  I don't want to abandon my friends....

          Heh.  It just hit me, in thinking about your diary, that you have an artistic mind.  My brain often works the same way when I'm working on something artistic, to the point that it can be really hard to explain at all.  I'm sure you know exactly what I mean. :)

          Have you tried to do any art since you ended things with him?  I know you've mentioned how much writing helps you, and it seems like art would too.  If you have (or if haven't but do someday), I would absolutely love to see some of your work. :)

          by tryptamine on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 05:24:59 PM PDT

          •  I feel the same :)

            I've been staying for the community diaries mostly though there are still some really great diaries to be found via Diary Rescue. It's amazing how political the community diaries can still be but not mean. I've been shocked by the lengths some people, I have in the past really admired, will go to.

            I'll take a picture of the one and only thing I've done since and send it to you. I agonized over it and basically haven't finished it yet as in made it usable. The thing is, that for some reason it's stings to even think about doing art and then painful to get it out.

            What sort of art do you work on? What pleases you the most?

            by CSI Bentonville on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 07:32:43 PM PDT

            •  Yeah, luckily

              there seems to be a large segment of the community that isn't going nuts, and even the ones that are going nuts take time out once and awhile.

              I think you just persuaded me to stay a little longer.

              Awesome, I can't wait! :D

              Erm, I don't really have anything specific that I stick to.  I'm taking a photography class right now that is pretty fun so far, and recently took up silk-screening.  I've actually got a bunch of stuff on the Internet (though most of it's old... maybe the next time I get fed up with dKos, I'll take a break and actually update some of my webpages) like my deviant art page and my own page.  Art is so much like breathing and eating and sleeping for me... I just couldn't live without it.

              And I hope you know that I'm only showing you these in the hopes of being able to inspire you again! :)

              by tryptamine on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:25:54 PM PDT

              •  Hee! I'll go take it now :)

                Sorry, been reflective this last week. I was sucked into this stupid infomercial for Time/Life's Flower Power music collection. I knew all those songs because they were played by the limited radio stations we had, my friend's parents played them, my mom even liked a few of the groups (which oddly are my least fave in the collection), my friend's had older sisters and brothers and cousins...

                But what really got to me was the people. They looked so real. Not this Hollywood beautiful but actually better. The guys weren't so macho but much more attractive. The songs were awesome, with hope and yearning and belief... and the whole era seemed to have promise.

                I wanna go back in time; wear hip huggers and go barefoot. :)

                ~~~~

                I'd forgotten how much I used to like taking pictures. Now I hate it. Haven't taken them for years. The ex was harsh on that.

                I'd wanted to do CD art too. I had so many ideas. I only was able to do one. :( Such unpleasant memories though.

                You're so adorable! :)

                Thank you for sharing. Love your work too (though I'm still going through)... what is and how does a Deviant Art page work. So many cool things you can do with silkscreening too.

                The daughter has done some incredible stuff. I'll see if I can send you a couple shots of hers. She's not interested though.

                I hope you don't let your art get stripped from you. It's like having a hole.

                And I'm glad you're sta