Daily Kos

In Defense of Bill Clinton

Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:50:54 AM PDT

I've never liked Bill Clinton very much.  After the 1994 election, he lost any will to fight for major progressive reforms.  Instead, despite a huge lead over Bob Dole in 1996, he repeatedly gave in to the Republicans.  He was not a progressive President.

So there are definitely a lot of great reasons to criticize Bill Clinton.  But until recently, most of us were cheering him on.  Even a Clinton critic like myself was cheering him on a year ago when he fought back against Chris Wallace's hit job on his anti-terrorism record on Fox News.

But lately things have changed around here.  Bill Clinton is the punching bag of the moment, and the ever-expanding number of anti-Clinton dairies here reminds me more of the Free Republic than Daily Kos.  Clinton isn't being criticized for accomplishing little as President.  He's not being criticized for compromising with the Republicans.  He's not being criticized for triangulation.

Instead, we're criticizing him for being a tough campaigner.  We're criticizing him for taking the MSM to task.  We're criticizing him for distorting Obama's record.  We're criticizing him for employing race-baiting and even suggesting that he is a racist.

And we're way off-base for doing so.  We're not only wrong, we're hypocrites.  The consensus view on this site has always been that you don't win elections by sitting back and playing nice with your opponent.  You don't win elections by holding back and "rising above politics."  You don't win elections by transending politics.  You don't win elections by playing nice with the media or the Republicans or anyone else.  You win elections by fighting hard.

That's exactly what Bill Clinton is doing.  He's fighting and clawing to win this election, which is exactly the same way he won elections in the past.  Is it any coincedence that he's the only Democratic President elected to a second term since FDR?  I don't admire the guy's record in office, but he knows how to win elections.  Politics isn't an easy business and it's not a pretty business, and you don't win elections by rising above the political arena.  You win elections by fighting within the political arena.

So when Clinton is challenged by a reporter, or thinks he or his wife is being misrepresented by the MSM, he should be fighting tooth-and-nail to call out the press.  When Clinton sees a weakness in his opponent's record or experience, he should be hitting him hard.  When Clinton sees himself or his wife attacked unfairly, he should respond aggressively.

Now, race-baiting is a different matter entirely.  There's no excuse for that.  And in the past, when I saw race baiting, I called it out myself.  But what Bill Clinton said the other day is not race baiting.  He said that African-Americans might vote for Obama out of the pride of seeing an African-American with a chance to win the nomination for the first time:

Voting for president along racial and gender lines "is understandable because people are proud when someone who they identify with emerges for the first time," the former president told a Charleston audience while campaigning for his wife.

That isn't race baiting.  It's the truth.  I remember when Harold Washington ran for Mayor in Chicago, and there was unprecedent turnout in the African-American community.  That wasn't a bad thing, it was a great thing.  It helped derail the Daley political machine.  I'd expect the African-American community to be energized about an Obama run.  Why wouldn't it be?  You can't compare his comment to real race-baiting, like Bob Corker's ad with a blonde white woman asking Harold Ford whether she'll see him at a Playboy party and winking at the camera.

The charge that Bill Clinton is a racist is equally absurd.  We're talking about Bill Clinton here, for Christ's sake.  There's a reason he and his wife have so many prominent African-American supporters.

Now, is Clinton being unfair to Obama?  Sure.  Is he playing hardball?  Sure.  Is he playing dirty?  Yep.  Is he taking a page out of the Rove playbook, as some have argued on here?  No doubt about it.

But as a site, haven't we always been about adopting the Republican strategies and using them to advance a progressive agenda?  Haven't we always been committed to fighting fire with fire, instead of whining about their tactics?

The truth is that Obama has tried to "transcend" politics.  His entire campaign is based on a call for a "new kind" of politics that will not only reduce bickering among Democrats, but will unite Democrats and Republicans together.  He talks about giving the powers-that-be a seat at the table.  The imagery in his speeches and the look of his campaign materials and ads suggests that he's a prophet or a crusader rather than a politician.

Bill Clinton is dragging Obama into the world of real politics.  He's forcing Obama to match attack with attack.  He's forcing Obama to throw mud back and forth.  He's forcing Obama to get his hands dirty.  He's forcing Obama to show voters that he's a politician too.  And it's a damn good thing he is, because if he didn't do that and Obama became our nominee, the Republicans would do the same thing.

What this tough primary fight should be teaching the Obama campaign is that you can't skate into the nomination by remaining "above the fray" and playing paddycake with your opponent.  I know Obama, I admire the man, and I respect his ability.  He will be our nominee, if not this year, in a future year.  But he cannot run a campaign that is based on holding hands and rising above politics.  He's going to have to become a fighter.

Tags: Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, meta, 2008 elections, president, primaries, Democrats (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 74 comments

    •  fighting hard is fine (6+ / 0-)

      As long as it's fighting fair and accurately.  Instead, the Clintons are engaged in just the kind of deceitful parsing and legerdemain that ruined any chances for substantive progressive policy outcomes in his second term.

      She was cruising to 2/5/08 without this stuff.  That they've chosen to fight dirty tells us about their character, as does Obama's decision not to bring up the various scandals of the 1990s.

      •  "Fair and accurate" (9+ / 0-)

        Personally I think that, from what I've seen, the Clinton attacks have been as fair and accurate as most of the attacks that are heaved back and forth in political campaigns.

        Most of them -- including ones made by us and the candidates we support -- are mostly true but are shaded a bit to help our side.  That's part of politics.  Realistically I think we're attacking Clinton for being a good politician, the type of politician we'd cheer on if the opponent was a Republican or even the right kind of Dem (Lieberman).

        I get that Obama is a great guy, and I like him too.  But we shouldn't be bashing Clinton for doing what we expect and want our candidates to do in every other race.

        •  Exactly (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          eleanora, Pozzo, Lying eyes

          I would add that it isn't really necessary for Obama to bring up any of the 1990's stuff because it's already out there and has been for quite a while.  Moreover, the COM is more than happy to do it for him.  Obama's complaints about having to fight both the Clinton's are well taken, but given the pure white hatred the COM holds for the Clinton's, perhaps it takes two of them to fight back.

          Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin

          by vigilant meerkat on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:17:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wait wait wait... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Adam B

            So lemme see if I'm clear about this.

            Obama shouldn't bring up any of Clinton's 90s stuff because it's already out there?

            Should Clinton bring up Rezko -- the Chicago Tribune and Chicago Sun-Times exhausted the story to death last year and found nothing... isn't that also "already out there"?

            The Planned Parenthood sponsored "Present" votes were more than 5 years ago... aren't they "already out there"?

            Come on... you're asking for a ludicrous double standard.

            I guess everyone's got their own blog now.

            by zonk on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:24:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, that's not what I said (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Pozzo

              Obama can bring up anything he wants to bring up, of course.  I was merely pointing out that he may not feel the need to do that given the extensive coverage all of the Clintons' many exploits have already received and continue to receive.  I don't know what Clinton "should" have done re Rezko.  I do not now, nor have I ever supported a double standard, much less "a ludicrous double standard."  I really don't like what is going on from either side, but neither of these two is my candidate.  I'm an Edwards supporter, so I don't have a position on this.

              Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin

              by vigilant meerkat on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:50:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Fair enough (0+ / 0-)

                I just don't want to see my candidate boxed into a position where the primary basically becomes nothing more than "How many and how big a punch can Obama take".

                For example, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on his new SC ad... the "Say Anything, Change Nothing" ad.

                I like it.  I wish it wasn't necessary, but Obama's been getting both barrels from the Clintons for a few weeks now - and I don't see where or how he really has any choice but to return fire.

                I guess everyone's got their own blog now.

                by zonk on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:59:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  No one's saying (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              eleanora, vigilant meerkat

              he can't bring it up. It's that its been brought up to death and is likely to be bad politics for him. If he wants to run on 90's Clinton era scandals, go for it.

        •  With all due respect (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          housesella

          "The right kind of Dem" -- that's sorta the point.

          You see - I've voted Democratic my entire adult life - starting with my very first election in 1990.   I've always voted Democratic because I believe in Democratic policies.

          I suppose I was what you'd call a yellow dog Dem voter... not because of blind party loyalty, but because I also understood that not everyone, everywhere is going to win by running as Teddy Kennedy (believe me... growing up in Indiana, I certainly knew that.)

          But -- what shifted my from Democratic voter to Democratic activist wasn't that the issues had changed... it was that the way the GOP pursued those issues changed.  Between 2000 and 2003 - the time I got behind the feisty little doctor from Vermont - I started to recognize that we weren't seeing Republican policies enacted, we were seeing them enacted because the GOP was running on pure vitriol  It was doom, death, destruction.  It was the nastiest of the nasty.  The innuendo. The way they conducted themselves that ultimately moved me to get involved.

          I got involved not just because I didn't like our national trajectory -- I really came to despise what vehicle was carrying us on that trajectory.

          Now?

          I'm seeing a Democrat trying to do that same thing to a fellow Democrat.

          Let me be clear - I will NOT vote for John McCain... but John McCain was right in 2000 when he said to George Bush after the debate and the whole Rovian smear campaign "Not everything is politics, George."

          I mean - seriously, Philosopher -- come on... We've now seen two incidents of Clinton campaign supporters at high levels disavow her campaign and its tactics.

          Can we really say it's "just politics"?

          Where is the line?

          I guess everyone's got their own blog now.

          by zonk on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:22:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  would it be fair to take this diary (0+ / 0-)

          & say that you like the way karl rove campaigns. that  disseminating lies & conducting slanderous push polling is the way politicians should be elected? that honesty & integrity have no place in american politics? that would only be "shading" what you've said here.  

          Anyone who advocates, supports, defends, rationalizes, or excuses torture has pus for brains and a case of scurvy for a conscience. - James Wolcott

          by rasbobbo on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:26:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Oh please (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        eleanora, Pozzo

        stop listening to the pundits spin.  This is their game.  Don't buy it.

      •  How do you know (0+ / 0-)

        that Obama's notbringing up the scandals because they won't help him to do so? Clinton remains a popular figure within Democratic ranks and when the scandals were fresh didn't seem to do much for the GOP. Clinton won an easy reelection in the thick of Whitewater. And his popularity was high when he got impeached. Plus, bringing up Clinton era scandals that don't implicate HIllary probably make her look like the victim. I don't see any upside to Obama using this stuff and lots of potential downside.

    •  Question (0+ / 0-)

      You make a great case about the nastiness of politics, and for Bill Clinton. But who exactly is running for President? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but throughout your diary you made several references to Bill winning, Bill running, winning campaigns, etc. So the question must be, who is running for President?

      •  His wife (6+ / 0-)

        I get that, and her campaign is very smart to have him out there as the attack dog while her attacks are more muted.  He's a more effective attacker and his attacks don't rub off on her as much as if she made them herself.

        It's smart campaigning and it's been done before, albeit not usually by a spouse (perhaps due to gender bias) but usually by a surrogate.

        •  And Therein Lies The Problem (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          not a cent

          The type of politics that you seem to admire here is the kind of politics that has given us the current state of things. Do you think things will change by doing the same things? Is that really your viewpoint?

          •  My viewpoint (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            1040SU, Lying eyes, A Person

            I don't expect the methods of politics to change.  I expect the results to change.  My goal, and I believe the goal of the majority of Kossacks, is to create a progressive majority in this country.  We won't do it by trying to "rise above politics".  We'll do it by creating a progressive movement and fighting within the political system for change.

            •  Results? (0+ / 0-)

              So you're telling me that by doing the same things (the same methods of politics), the results of those methods will somehow change?

              Maybe you're a realist, and you believe that politics simply can't change, that it is simply the way it is. Here's a quote:

              "There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" -- Robert Kennedy

              Take it for what you will, but you'll probably not get the progressive society you desire by using the same tactics that got us what we have now.

              •  And playing nice has (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                eleanora, Pozzo

                gotten poor people, peacemakers and progressives what?  

                We were unable to elect a democratic president for two terms from FDR until Bill Clinton.  

                Good people, progessives, liberals deserve to have people unafraid to FIGHT and do what needs to be done to end these decades of fascist plutocracy.

              •  The 1960 election was a good example (0+ / 0-)

                of having good ideas and playing hardball. RFK was the brains and muscle behind a great deal of that. You have to ask the question as he did, dream the dream, get people to listen, then fight hard to get elected so you can make things happen.

                Has there ever been a president elected in the United States that wasn't a politician? Adlai Stevenson was a eminently qualified man with a devastating wit, probably the most brilliant mind we've ever had run. He lost. Twice.

        •  The same kind of politics from whom? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          eleanora

          Why didn't Al Gore and his team fight back at the ridiculous crap personally lies from the press....the negative spin and deriding of Al from everything from his clothes to his intellect.
          Nooo...while the right wing shills were making fun of everything Al, the dems were "above it all."  
          Al did not want to hurt the country by challenging the FL votes.  He put the country first seemingly.  NOBLE.  Transcend the dirty fighting.  And look what we got.  Maybe if we, the dems had INSISTED and supported AL fighting the street fight, W would never have been president.

          And then in 2004.  Kerry is whining now that we should not let anyone be swiftboated.  Does he think he can STOP swiftboating from the right?  Seriously?  Does anyone here thing the RIGHT wing will NOT get as dirty and filthy as necessary.  Kerry wanted to be noble, to be above it all....and not sling back mud at Bush.

          Well personally I feel it has not served dems well to "transcend politics."   The reward for not playing their game is W, Iraq, the worst economy in years, the trashing of the Constitution.

          The right wing WILL NOT play nice.  That is a fact.

    •  Why (0+ / 0-)

      can't he stick to talking about his wife... Hell - for that matter, has he really had much to say about his wife, for the past month at least?

      Lemme put it this way... If all spouses agreed to say nothing at all about their opponents, and focus solely on extolling the virtues of his/her spouse - who loses?  Who would make the deal?

      I guess everyone's got their own blog now.

      by zonk on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:14:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is one of the most honest (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      eleanora, Lying eyes, A Person

      and fairest diaries I have seen at dkos in a long time.

      Bill is no choir boy, never has been.  If there is one thing Bill Clinton KNOWS about it is the corporate owned press and how low they are willing to go to please their corporate masters.

      People who lived in Arkansas KNOW the depths the right wing owned press will got to stop people who stand up to them. If Bill and Hillary were such corporate shills as some here claim, then the press would be TRYING to get Hillary elected.  Bill has always been a outsider resented by the likes of Broder and Brooks.  His poor boy background should have been something positive from the press.  Instead Broder and company resented him.  

      Now Hillary knows how to fight the right and how to fight the press and they resent it.
      This is a woman who after graduating from law school went to DC and help convict Watergate criminals.  This is a woman who had to stand in public knowing she was being mocked, derided and insulted by a snickering right wing boys club, and say nothing.  But she did not wilt.  She got tough.

      Bill KNOWS what the right wing will do to ANY democratic candidate.  Let's face it.  Look what they did in Arkansas long before he was a real threat to winning the presidency.  LYING is not above these people.  The press hates the Clintons because they Clintons won't bow to them.  

      I do NOT want nor should any American want anything BUT an adversarial relationship between the press and the government.  Our press should NOT be into socializing with the power brokers.  Our press should NOT be personally admiring the candidates they way they did W.  All of the candidates should be pressed and scrutinized.  At the same time, when the press is campaigning for people, other candidates SHOULD call them on it.

      Anyway, you wrote the truth.
      And in my view I mistrust any candidate who is kissing up to the press corps.

  •  This is your DEFENSE of Mr. Clinton????? (5+ / 0-)

    Now, is Clinton being unfair to Obama?  Sure.  Is he playing hardball?  Sure.  Is he playing dirty?  Yep.  Is he taking a page out of the Rove playbook, as some have argued on here?  No doubt about it.

    Geeze, I hate to pile on, but could we also mention he lost his law license because of his inability to tell the truth, a fact we should keep in mind every time he says something about Obama.

    And we should also keep in mind that extraordinary rendition, the practice of flying folks around the world to torture-friendly locales, came about on his watch.

    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

    by bobdevo on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:54:10 AM PDT

    •  since BHO is doing much the same (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      votermom, Pozzo

      hence the hypocracy

      "I will sink federalism into an abyss from which there shall be no resurrection..." Thomas Jefferson

      by tony the American Mutt on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:56:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  BHO had his law license yanked?? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        sqz23

        That's news to me!

        BHO initiated the extraordinary rendition program??

        That news to me, too!

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:58:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Obama and Rezko deep-sixed BCCI report, too.... (0+ / 0-)

          and pardoned an IranContra-BCCI operative for Poppy Bush.

          And spent his summer 2004 book tour MONTH supporting and defending Bush's decisions on terrorism and Iraq war while ignoring the Dem nominee's position and longtime expertise on the tracking of terror networks.

          Oops - no - that was Bill Clinton.

    •  LOL, right wing talking point alert....nt (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Jim J, votermom, Pozzo

      None of the candidates are good enough to be fanatical about. They're all politicians

      by TeresaInSammamishWA on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:57:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes it is (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      votermom

      I'm not going to defend Clinton's record in office because I think it's abysmal myself.

      But what he's doing in this campaign for his wife is standard American politics.  It's not nice, it's dirty, and it's Rovian.  Sure.  But that's how our political system works.

      This has always been a site that not only recognized that, but embraced it.  We're not idealists who stand "above the fray" and cry about Republican attacks, and we don't want our elected representatives to be either.  We've always wanted fighters who are going to fight fire with fire.

      What Clinton is doing is what we want all of our candidates to do, which is hit hard and fight the media and their opponent.  For him to be criticized for that on this site smacks of hypocracy, given that we're usually urging Dems to do exactly what he's doing now.

  •  Rezko crosses the line (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bobdevo, eddytom

    It's an ugly smear - no need for Clintons to give it any legitimacy.  There is absolutely NO evidence of wrongdoing.  They of all people should know that a candidate cannot be held guilty for all the sins of anyone associated with them (i.e., Marc Rich, Norman Hsu, the McDougals, Webb Hubbell, Bill Clinton-to-Hillary, etc.)  

    •  see, that darned hypocracy thing again (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Jim J

      since every one of those folks you detailed has been used against not just Bill but Hillary too right here, every dammed day, normally in multiple diaries. by BHO 'supporters'

      "I will sink federalism into an abyss from which there shall be no resurrection..." Thomas Jefferson

      by tony the American Mutt on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:58:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Could you learn to spell fucking "hypocrisy" (0+ / 0-)

        since you apparently use it in every fucking post?

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:00:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  so you can't debate it (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          CC Music Factory

          and become a spelling-nanny (= loser). and why did you feel the need to toss in 'fucking'? wow, just a foul-mouthed hypocrite ain't ya :)

          "I will sink federalism into an abyss from which there shall be no resurrection..." Thomas Jefferson

          by tony the American Mutt on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:03:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There's nothing to debate . . . (0+ / 0-)

            unless you can demonstrate Obama has been using the sama tactics as Hill and Bill - which he hasn't.

            And I felt the need to toss in fucking because I felt like it and because I was tired of your ignorance.

            "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

            by bobdevo on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 01:46:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  But notice what they're doing (5+ / 0-)

      They never say that Obama did anything wrong.  But they point out that he associated with a scumbag, which is true.  Against most politicians, that charge wouldn't have much of an effect.  But Obama has always run as this guy who is above politics, who isn't part of the dirty political world, and is above the fray.

      What the Clinton campaign is doing is saying "hey, you're a politician too!"  They're dragging him to their level, so to speak.  The reality is that any opponent of Obama would and will do that to him.  You can't win the Presidency by remaining above the fray.  He's a politician, a good one and one I like, but a politician nonetheless and he shouldn't run away from that.  He needs to be part of politics, not try to hover above it.

      •  So is that (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Greuben

        Ultimately all you want?

        For Barack Obama to say he's not perfect?  that he's not Jesus?  For us Obama supporters to say he's not God?

        Fine... I'll say it...  Barack Obama is NOT perfect!

        Just please -- explain to me where this strawman came from that ever claimed he was.

        I guess everyone's got their own blog now.

        by zonk on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:27:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not that he isn't "perfect" (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          A Person

          What I'm asking for is Obama to join the fray and fight for this nomination.  Really fight.  Not try to "trancend" politics but really mix it up with Clinton and fight fire with fire.

          I don't think you can win the nomination by remaining "above the fray".

          •  OK (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Greuben

            I think he's doing that now.

            The new ad in SC -- "Hillary will say anything, but change nothing" -- is pitch perfect.

            However - he's getting a fair bit of grief (and I'm not saying from you, though downthread, I might have mixed up diary responses) for "going negative".

            I guess everyone's got their own blog now.

            by zonk on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:57:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Why? He's doing great as it is (0+ / 0-)

            Obama's been successful running his positive campaign, and responding with (relative) precision to specific attacks that distort what he said or what he stands for.  

            Could he be more aggressive?  I think so.  But the politics of subtraction (which is what negative campaigning is about) can only go so far - Obama's been successful (see Iowa and NH) with the politics of addition.   He's gotten no less than 37% of the vote in every competitive campaign.  He's clearly ahead in South Carolina.  

            What is your fetish with negative campaigning?  Do you really think that we're going to win that way in November?

  •  BAH! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dreggas

    You argue intelligently and well, but the point remains that as a Democrat I expect my party to be better than that. I want us to fight the true enemy- the Republicans. By fighting another democrat, he may indeed be causing major rifts in the base. Here I was all excited that Democrats were surging to vote, and now I fear this divisiveness will cause parts of our base to get jaded and put off. Same goes for Obama. I expect Democrats to fight fair with each other. Maybe I am just idealistic like that- but I want them to fight fair with each other because Lord only knows the Republicans are not going to fight fair with us.

    •  I understand what you're saying (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      A Person

      But I respectfully disagree, and I think the consensus on this blog has always been away from the idealist camp and more towards the realist camp.

      Ideally, I agree with you.  We'd have reasoned debates about issues of the day, and our politicians would be accurate and fair to each other.

      But we both know that's not how politics works.  You said yourself that the Republicans are not going to fight fair with us.  I want a candidate who is going to mix it up and fight fire with fire, not a candidate who is going to pretend like he's "above politics", especially since the Republicans are going to drag him down into a slugfest in the general election.

      •  I know..but (0+ / 0-)

        And I'd like for us to fight as a united front against the Republicans. That is what I believe is at risk when Democrats start fighting Democrats in "he said, she said, he meant, she meant" type of way. We have to see what we gain from this (IMO nothing except- oh X candidate can fight the Republicans if they get to that stage) and what we stand to lose ( support, interest, enthusiasm, belief, etc).

  •  I've been criticizing Clinton (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Adam B, sqz23, Jail the BFEE

    for challenging the right of out of state Iowa college students to vote, for attempting to disenfranchise tens of thousands of union workers because their union endorsed an opponent, and for misleading attacks on opponents.

    You say this:

    You win elections by fighting hard.

    So you're supposed to win party primaries by dragging down other Democrats?  By disenfranchising core Democratic constituencies?  By challenging voting rights, suing our own state parties, and striving to close polling places?

  •  If Obama lied the way Clinton does to 'fight' (0+ / 0-)

    I wouldn't support him.

    We have just spent decades of government via the constant lies.

    Bill Clinton lied throughout his book to us because he has NO RESPECT for our role as citizens deserving of truth - we are just voters to be manipulated.

    http://consortiumnews.com/...

    Lies are the realm of CLOSED GOVERNMENT that Clintons and Bushes have protected for decades.

    Truth matters - in matters in campaigns and it matters in governance.

  •  Bill (0+ / 0-)

    Sorry, this blog is a non-event.  Bill has abondoned all in support of Hillary in a primary.  I think the democrats are and will pay a price for his zeal.

    go raibh maith agat

    by jersy on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:00:02 AM PDT

  •  Philosopher, I'm with you! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jim J, HairyTrueMan

    Let us tiptoe through the mine field together.

    Good point from another blog:   When pundits and candidates point out that Hillary's support comes massively from older women, and that older women put her over the top in NH, the Clintons do not claim "gender card".    

    So ... what makes it "race card" to say the very same thing about African-Americans in SC?   The situations are identical.  One campaign couldn't care less.  The other goes ballistic.  

    Obama has himself played the race card in several ways.   His memo calling Hillary "D-Punjab" was a dirty trick meant to demean her for having Indian supporters.  Or ... something.  I don't even know what the point was, but it smells bad.

    By claiming "race card" one is essentially playing "race card".    

    Obama's crude joke in the debate about testing Bill Clinton's blackness by his "ability to dance".  Wow, it doesn't get any more race card than that.  Obama is a very bright man and I'm sure he understands that no white man (or woman) could say that.  So he's clearly "flaunting" his racial identity there. "Nannynannybooboo, I can say it, and you can't!"

  •  Bill Clinton has become a serial liar (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bobdevo, jersy

    There is absolutely no excuse for his behavior of the last three weeks.  He has been behaving precisely like Lee Atwater and Karl Rove.  

    If the shoe fits . . . ?

    "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." --H.L. Mencken

    by JCWilmore on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:02:34 AM PDT

  •  Bill Clinton (0+ / 0-)

    and his wife are showing their true colors, can you blame people for feeling betrayed? Can you blame them for wondering just where they were the past 7 years when we were fighting against the administration? Oh wait, they SUPPORTED THE WAR. They gave us NAFTA, they gave us DOMA, they gave us DADT. Hell the more I think about it they've capitulated to the republicans while in office just as much as the current congress is.

    Need we forget who took congress while Clinton was in office? Do we want that again?

    I don't want Bill or his wife in the white house. I don't want Bush Clinton Bush Clinton. That's not America and Hillary and Bills tactics sure aren't democratic.

    Sarcasm: It beats killing people...

    by Dreggas on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:06:27 AM PDT

    •  Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pozzo

      is a tiresome chant.  Neither Clinton had anything to do with either Bush presidency.  That is because of idiot Democrats who sat home or voted for Nader and helped get us into this mess.

      "People seem to enjoy things more when they know a lot of other people have been left out of the pleasure." - Russell Baker

      by melvonator on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:11:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Here are the facts (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    votermom, Black Max, A Person

    Obama is a good man but he is just as much a politician as any other candidate and those who think otherwise are part of the fairy tale.  He avoided many controversial votes in Illinois the same as he avoided  voting on the Kyle/Lieberman bill to keep his voting record clear.  His advisors saw that both Hillary and the Republican candidates coming into this election had high negatives so they thought better now than later when he would have more experience, more contacts in DC but also more of a voting record for the Repubs to hit him with.

    This is old style politics and now as always old style politics wins elections.  Everyone needs to grow up let the heat and animosity simmer down instead of asking for more red meat from the candidates and support whoever the eventual winner is.

    "People seem to enjoy things more when they know a lot of other people have been left out of the pleasure." - Russell Baker

    by melvonator on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:07:47 AM PDT

  •  All right, God damn it! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    votermom, Gabriele Droz

    This is going to turn into a Clinton/Obama flame diary. We all know it. We can chant litanies of Clinton and Obama sins back and forth like a liturgical tennis match. So let me make just one suggestion.

    STOP IT.

    We can't help that the two campaigns are flinging filth at one another, and will escalate the mud-fighting in the days and weeks ahead. What we can do is refuse to pile on, refuse to be part of the latest and perhaps critically devastating circular firing squad in US history.

    Think what happens if this shitfit between Clinton and Obama costs us the election. We get McCain or Romney for the next four years because of this. Is it worth the risk? Is it worth risking the existence of the American we know and revere so these two candidates can pull each other's skin off for campaign advantages? Are you willing to be part of it? Are you going to explain to your kids why the world went dark in 2010, and explain that you were part of it?

    Campaign advisers to Clinton and Obama who might be reading this, damn your sorry hides to hell and back for being part of this. But you're in a unique position to put an end to it.

    Stop it. Just stop it.

    The History Commons needs your participation.

    by Black Max on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:08:13 AM PDT

  •  You're right (0+ / 0-)

    the Clintons haven't done anything wrong.

    That whold lawsuit brought to disenfranchise Nevada voters?  That was awesome dude!

    The 1,600 complaints about the Clinton actions at the Nevada caucus?  Sweet!  Man, that was radical!

    All the lies Bill and Hillary have told about Obama?  Well that was just the iceing on the crap cake that is the Clinton campaign.

    Of course I'm sure the diarist is equally upset that Obama hasn't been asking about the well being of Monica Lewinski.  Or inquiring after the amount of money paid by Mark Rich for his pardon.  Or asking Hillary for tips on how to play the cattle futures market.  Because if the diarist thinks Hillary should get a free pass then the diarist is a hypocrit.

    •  I wish he was (0+ / 0-)

      If Obama was the fighter that he should be, he would be asking Hillary about the cattle futures market or about those pardons.  He'd be fighting fire with fire.  He needs to fight fire with fire instead of trying to pretend that he "transcends" politics.  He will be a better candidate when he stands up for himself and fights back instead of trying to remain "above the fray".

  •  I just listened to Ed Schultz on my lunch break. (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jim J, votermom, Pozzo, Gabriele Droz

    Schultz went into a tirade like no other, ripping into the Clintons as if they were responsible for all of the world's woes. He was literally screaming that Bill Clinton is a liar, over and over again. He sounded exactly like Rush Limbaugh.

    My friend was in the car with me. She asked me if she could still vote in the Mass primary. She was yelling:

    Fuck Ed Schultz and fuck Barack Obama. I'm voting for for Hillary.

    This excessive anti-Clinton business is going to backfire on the haters.

    The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason. -Benjamin Franklin

    by HairyTrueMan on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:10:16 AM PDT

    •  It's happening as we speak (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      votermom

      I think it will fully manifest if/when Edwards drops out. The Obama people take it as a given that 100 percent of Edwards' support goes to him. They have so far been fairly arrogant in assuming that.  I think they're quite mistaken.

      •  Edwards ain't dropping out (0+ / 0-)

        He's said he will go all the way to the convention.  

        He's got a letter from MLK III saying "Don't give up the fight; my father would be proud of you."  

        He's on the ballot in all the primary states.  

        He's got lots of fervent (and most-positive) supporters.

        So ... the political calculus of this is very interesting.   Neither Hillary nor Obama is going to storm the country on super-Tuesday, and Edwards is going to (tortoise-like) continue to pick up delegates.   So It will be an interesting convention!  

        Where is the convention this year, BTW, does anyone know?

  •  Simple question (0+ / 0-)

    During the 2006 mid-terms -- while a dozen GOP congressmen were either under indictment, convicted, under investigation, or denying-but-probably were under investigation --

    Was it reasonable for the GOP to scream "William Jeffersons' freezer cash!  William Jefferson's freezer cash!".

    I'm sorry -- but this is all exactly what Chris Bowers called "blurring".

    This is nothing more than "everyone is just as bad" by implication... only -- everyone isn't just as bad.  It's just that that's a near impossible argument to make.  Hell... It's whats-his-name from AZ running for GOP leader -- "I'm the least tainted".

    It won't get you anywhere because no one really cares to verify if hey -- one candidate is 95% clean and the other is only 50% clean... they're both not 100% clean.

    Sooo... that's all the 95% candidate is left with -- attack the 50%er as a dirty politician.   This is what Obama is doing now - and it's all he can do.

    I guess everyone's got their own blog now.

    by zonk on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:33:04 AM PDT

  •  Bill Clinton himself apparently disagrees (1+ / 0-)

    I guess Bill Clinton won't be voting for his wife:

    Citing "one of Clinton's rules of politics", he declared: "If one candidate is trying to scare you, and the other's trying to get you to think; if one is appealing to your fears, and the other is appealing to your hopes - it seems to me you ought to vote for the person who wants you to think and hope."-- Bill Clinton (10/26/04)

    Smart man, that Bill.

  •  You hit the nail on the head here (0+ / 0-)

    That's exactly what Bill Clinton is doing.  He's fighting and clawing to win this election, which is exactly the same way he won elections in the past.

    And that is not working for a lot of people, since they are trying to evaluate a different candidate - Hillary Clinton.  And it is not working for a lot of people who don't want a third Bill Cinton term; and see his visibiilty and tone as exactly what you stated - fighting and clawing to win this election as he has won in the past.  The strategy is also not working for people who fully support Hillary but who also know that as a nominee she's going to face some Bill blowback from the Republicans; and right now Bill is providing grist for that mill, too.

    "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." Sen Carl Schurz 1872

    by Catte Nappe on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:48:02 AM PDT

  •  I want to win... (0+ / 0-)

    but I want to win by taking the high road and proving that I'm right, not by being the best mudwrestler.  

    I think Obama, due in part to his "professorial" persona, has the ability to take apart opponents arguments... and has indeed made several of Hillary's attacks look silly so far.  In large part, he accomplished this while "transcending" petty politics.  Think of just how much he could have dredged up from the Clintons' past-- but hasn't.

    Now, imagine this sort of 'grown up' approach being used against the Republican attacks throughout the summer-- it would only be magnified exponentially.  I'm not advocating a Kerry-esque bending-over-and-taking-it avoidance of politics, but a reasonable, firm, justification of your positions and policies that--for Obama-- tend to speak volumes for themselves.

    •  how much (0+ / 0-)

      Would it help Obama to "Dredge" up things from the Clinton's past? I keep hearing this arugment made, and it makes little sense to me. I just don't see how this would help Obama anyway. One, Most of the stuff is about Bill and it never hurt him that much when it was much more fresh.  Two, if Obama does that, it takes away the veneer of him being "transformational" and the  "politics of hope." It gets him off message and makes him look nasty, something which I am sure he doesnt' want. Three, as most of it's about Bill, it makes Hillary look like the victim. I just don't see an upside for Obama for doing this. I am not sure how much credit he deserves for not doing something stupid.

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