Daily Kos

Opposing the Clintons

Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 10:46:18 AM PDT

In the aftermath of Hillary Clinton's "comeback" in New Hampshire and her squeak-by in Nevada, many Obama supporters both on this blog and elsewhere began to express sentiment for a very taboo ideal - not voting for Hillary if she is the nominee. Saying anything remotely close to this has, and will always be, a no-no on Daily Kos nomatter what. But, a little over a week before Super Tuesday, I think it is important to try to understand where these folks are coming from.

In today's LA Times, Jonathan Chait tries to explain where some of these feelings are coming from. He writes:

Something strange happened the other day. All these different people -- friends, co-workers, relatives, people on a liberal e-mail list I read -- kept saying the same thing: They've suddenly developed a disdain for Bill and Hillary Clinton. Maybe this is just a coincidence, but I think we've reached an irrevocable turning point in liberal opinion of the Clintons.

So what was the turning point?

The big turning point seems to be this week, when the Clintons slammed Obama for acknowledging that Ronald Reagan changed the country. Everyone knows Reagan changed the country. Bill and Hillary have said he changed the country. But they falsely claimed that Obama praised Reagan's ideas, saying he was a better president than Clinton -- something he didn't say and surely does not believe.

This might have been the most egregious case, but it wasn't the first. Before the New Hampshire primaries, Clinton supporters e-mailed pro-choice voters claiming that Obama was suspect on abortion rights because he had voted "present" instead of "no" on some votes. (In fact, the president of the Illinois chapter of Planned Parenthood said she had coordinated strategy with Obama and wanted him to vote "present.") Recently, there have been waves of robocalls in South Carolina repeatedly attacking "Barack Hussein Obama."

And while these false and over-played attacks on Obama's character have disturbed me (and they should disturb you as well), I think that perhaps the most disturbing thing is the manner in which they are slung. Sadly, it seems that the Clinton attack machine has yet to face a backlash. And while the media (and Obama supporters) have been quick to point out how un-presidential Bill Clinton has been in the past few weeks, most Americans seemed unfazed by the Big Dog's attack dog style. It seems as if nostalgia has finally overtaken decorum.

Jeff Zeleny writes in the NY Times today:

If Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton found her voice with a victory in New Hampshire, Mr. Obama often seems to have been searching for the proper pitch in South Carolina, with the weight and scrutiny of the Clinton political machine fully upon him.

This week, some of the challenges and complexities facing Mr. Obama’s candidacy came into sharp view, with racial discord, ideological divides and cutthroat politics testing his candidacy as never before in his yearlong campaign. (Or his political life. )

Obama has had a rough week.

For all of the sunny self-assurance that has propelled him to this juncture in the contest for the Democratic presidential nomination, Mr. Obama grappled to find a balance between defending himself against accusations he called distorted and promoting a message of hopeful change in a state that is essential to his bid for the presidency.

And, to give credit where credit is due, the Clinton strategy of attacking Obama so that he can strike back and then say "whatever happened to the politics of hope?" is brilliant political gamesmanship. But that kind of game-playing is unhealthy for the party, unhealthy for America, and is why I don't want to vote for Hillary Clinton. Ever.

But, come November, will I have to? I hope not. But this feeling I am feeling inside is not an isolated case. Countless people who read this and countless people I talk to are proudly Democrats but would feel a little uneasy casting a ballot to send the political tag-team that defeated the Politics of Hope to the Oval Office.

As Chait writes:

If Hillary wins the nomination, most of us will probably vote for her because the alternative is likely to be worse. But what happens if she's embroiled in another scandal? Will liberals rally behind her, or will they remember the Democratic primary?

What is our alternative? Mike Bloomberg? John McCain??? Humph.

A week from Tuesday, I will proudly cast my ballot for Barack Obama in the Connecticut primary. I do so knowing his middle name is Hussein. I do so knowing that he has done cocaine. I do so knowing his ideas for this country are longer than his resume. I do so knowing he is African American. I do so knowing I'm proud to be a Democrat. I do so knowing it is time to change the country.

And if he loses my state, or if he loses every state on Super Tuesday, my opinion of him will not change. He will still inspire me. And, depending on what happens, he will inspire me to cast my vote for a Democrat in November even if he is not on the ballot. Will I be happy about that? Of course not. Do I still hate Hillary and her low-life politics? Yes. But, in the interest of our nation, I gotta do what I gotta do.

Tags: Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, 2008 Election, Super Tuesday (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 113 comments

    •  I think characterizing opposition... (4+ / 0-)

      ...to the Clintons' campaign as "Hillary-hate" will be more trouble for you than it's worth.

      I'd recommend changing your title, perhaps to something like "Understanding Clinton Opposition".

      Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

      by mistersite on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 10:51:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This statement is counter to (6+ / 0-)

      all that Barack Obama believes:

      Do I still hate Hillary and her low-life politics? Yes.

      If you hate Hillary Clinton, you have not been listening to Barack Obama at all.  I support John Edwards because Obama is too moderate, but at least I can hear his heart as expressed in his words.

      If you're into hate, you've left hope behind.  

      "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

      by TomP on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 10:53:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I am only tipping for that last line... (0+ / 0-)

      ...where you say that you will vote for the Democratic nominee.  That has been my position and will always be my position.

      And I do not think that you are mischaracterizing anything when you discuss 'Hillary Haters'.  People on this board may not like the label but I have read too many inflammatory superlatives to try to deny that it exists.  I am sure that there are some that are able to disagree with her on a purely intellectual basis but there is a fair sized lot that have descended into visceral hatred and it sickens me.  I expect the GOP to pursue the most negative interpretation of anything that the Clintons do, I expected better from Progressives.

      I am not a Clinton supporter but I find myself coming to her defense more often than I would like.  It is truly a shame that otherwise good Progressives can behave like this to a top-tier candidate.  Obama does not need to dirty his hands because his followers are ready to do it for him.  We do not need to act like this.  We ought to be able to dispassionately separate fact from fiction.  Instead I see supporters of Obama and Edwards believing and repeating the well-worn smears and narratives of the GOP.  It is despicable.

      My keyboard has a tempermental 'B' key; if a word does not make sense then just stick 'B's into it until it does.

      by Terrapin on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:23:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I will respond because you have been very (0+ / 0-)

        cool - unlike some others in this thread.

        I guess my question is what makes her a top-tier candidate?  My issue is that so much of this seems like it's by default, rather than what the people actually want.

        I'm certainly not at the point where I can say I will vote for her, but totally understand the importance.  I guess that's why I have such a hard time even understanding how she got to be "up there" at all...

        Does that make sense?

        If we continue to let "others" decide who we should elect then we'll never really have a voice.  I want to vote for someone for once and not against someone else.  Is that too much to ask?

        •  I understand your need to be inspired... (0+ / 0-)

          ...and I really do hope that you have the chance to vote for your preferred candidate in the general election. I extend the same wish to supporters of all Democratic candidates.

          But I do not understand your confusion as to why Hillary Clinton is a top-tier candidate.  She has an army of passionate supporters.  She has consistently polled higher than any other candidate.  She is running neck-n-neck with Barack Obama for the Democratic nomination.  I do not know who these 'others' are that you think are controlling things.  She got where she is by being a good politician - just like Barack Obama - just like John Edwards.

          Political ascensions like Barack Obama's do not simply happen.  He had to work for it.  He made political alliances (cough*Lieberman*cough), he established a base of power and he exploited his political strengths - just like any other politician.  And that is a fantastic thing - because he has shown all the signs of being an intelligent, thoughtful, charismatic, potentially progressive leader.  The difference is that, IMO, so do the other two candidates.

          My keyboard has a tempermental 'B' key; if a word does not make sense then just stick 'B's into it until it does.

          by Terrapin on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:58:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your points are well-taken. (0+ / 0-)

            (Lieberman seems to be quite the thorn.)

            I happen to agree that candidates are made by their own savvy - generally speaking.  I just don't really feel that way with Hillary.  As a woman myself, I guess she seems to have ridden her husband's coattails far too much for my liking.

            Sure, she won the Senate seat, but how much of that was due purely to name recognition?

            Of all the candidates, Hillary seems to be the least "self-made" (and doesn't appear to have an ounce of the charisma we expect in our presidents - on both sides of the aisle) although every candidate needs people to propel them.

  •  Please read Digby ..nt (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JohnGor0
  •  Astute (7+ / 0-)

    I have always loved Bill Clinton, and had looked forward to a Hillary candidacy.

    After these last two weeks, I cannot wait for Hillary to bow out of the primaries. One thing our country need see no more of is George Bush double-speak, George Bush rule-changing, and George Bush cheating. Hillary is pouring all three on Barack's head.

    All Hillary can promise is that on Jan 21, 2009, we go back 10 years and start refighting the old GOP vs. Billary battles. Yes, the GOP played a major role in that, but I'm beginning to think the Clintons stoked that furnace for their own political ends.

    klaatu barada nikto

    by JohnGor0 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 10:54:27 AM PDT

  •  I am not so sure (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shaharazade, Empower Ink

    of the following:

    And, to give credit where credit is due, the Clinton strategy of attacking Obama so that he can strike back and then say "whatever happened to the politics of hope?" is brilliant political gamesmanship.

    It is only brilliant political gamesmanship if it works.  It is a debatable point because the are two CWs coming to the MSM right now.  One is as you described above about Obama abandoning the politics of hope.  The other, which I see a little more of, is that HRC will say anything to get elected.  

    The more aggressive she gets the more likely the latter CW becomes more prevelant.  Here "comeback" in New Hampshire was partially due to the appearance of humanity in her persona. That is now out the window.

    One Man with Courage Makes a Majority - Andrew Jackson

    by Nick A on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 10:55:05 AM PDT

  •  Mirror Mirror (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Iberian, Terrapin, Rabonista

    The wingers have won...Hillary hating, once a staple of the loony right is now see as perfectly acceptable by the "progressive" left.  
    Don't we all feel better now?

    •  I wish I could rec your comment (0+ / 0-)

      a THOUSAND times. I could break down and cry. Obama vs. Hillary has destroyed the party, from the inside. Too soon to tell now, but we will LOSE in November. Unless they are BOTH on the ticket, and it may be too late for that. This is unbelievable to me.

      Waiting for a Woman Republicans DON'T Hate? well........

      by Rabonista on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:07:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I find your framing problematic. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tmo, sick of it all

      To say that opposition to the Clintons (I wouldn't call it hating the Clintons personally, but rather hating what their campaign is doing) is naturally the province of the right is to discount the very real, very valid complaints on the part of many Democrats against the way the Clintons are running their campaign this year.  To frame the discussion as you do is to accuse everyone who opposes what the Clintons are doing of buying into or helping the right wing's arguments.  As someone who treasures valid discourse, that troubles me quite a bit.

      If your purpose is to defang any criticism of the Clintons, you're serving it well with that statement; however, if your purpose is to make for a clean, honest discourse, your statement is inherently troublesome.

      (I accidentally posted this reply to the wrong comment.  This is where it should appear.)

      Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

      by mistersite on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:10:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Clintons (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sick of it all, Nedsdag, shaharazade

      have always had a tenuous relationship with the left. Some of the harshest legitimate criticism of Bill that I would hear came from progressives.

      Some of that alienation fueled Nader's campaign in 2000, and drove others away from the Democratic Party for the past several years.

      You can believe your version, but there are other perspectives on this.

      The direction currently taken by the Clinton campaign is exacerbating the deep sore feelings from the past while producing a new distaste among those entering (and re-entering) the process now.

      People who have no particular feelings about her personally are looking on and wondering how this is going to be good for the country.

      "The world's a mess and I just need to rule it." -- Dr. Horrible

      by BobzCat on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:15:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But Obamamaniacs are NOT Naderites... (0+ / 0-)

        ...I have seen no similarities other than a visceral dislike of the Clintons.  Naderites were mostly far-left liberals whereas most Obamamaniacs tend to be right-leaning centrists or ex-republicans.

        I guess the only similarity that exists is that both groups are willing to hand the government over to the GOP scumbags in their zeal to keep the Clintons from the Presidency.

        My keyboard has a tempermental 'B' key; if a word does not make sense then just stick 'B's into it until it does.

        by Terrapin on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:43:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Heh. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sick of it all

          ...most Obamamaniacs tend to be right-leaning centrists or ex-republicans.

          That's actually hilarious.

          There's a reason I'm voting for the man with the most liberal voting record of the top 3 candidates.  And it's not because I am a "right-leaning centrist or ex-republican(sic)".

          I have the distinction of being called a media whore by Courtney Love. -Maynard J. Keenan

          by arielle on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 12:18:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Off my topic (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sick of it all

          I was simply describing the way the Clinton political approach may have helped splinter any possible progressive coalition and where some of those voters may have gone afer leaving the Democratic Party. Many of those whom I know have either voted for alternatives or stayed at home since then.

          It's my feeling now that Sen. Clinton is fine with that, and plans to carve out an electoral victory by relying on other demographics.

          What some here call "Hillary-hate" is, for many people, a deep disenchantment with her husband's presidency and with her candidacy. It's not irrational, nor is it a product of successful right-wing smears; rather, it often consists of legitimate policy and rhetoric differences dating from the nineties and up through the current tone of her campaign.

          "The world's a mess and I just need to rule it." -- Dr. Horrible

          by BobzCat on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 12:50:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  There is also ideology (0+ / 0-)

    She has the insitutional advantages but I get two messages...one that she can fight as dirty as the Republicans, and the second, her claim that she will make a great president. I wish she would concentrate on one, because to me her strategy is scary rather than "brilliant". I still think she has serious capabilities that support her claim of being a good president, I just think her campaign actually detracts in a very ugly way from her true merits.

    •  I agree and have said that (0+ / 0-)

      we need to pay as careful attention to how the candidates are running their campaigns as we are to what they are saying.  Spouses definitely included!  For now, those are the two people we know for sure will be in the White House: the candidate and the spouse.  All else is still up for grabs!

    •  I find your framing problematic. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sick of it all

      To say that opposition to the Clintons (I wouldn't call it hating the Clintons personally, but rather hating what their campaign is doing) is naturally the province of the right is to discount the very real, very valid complaints on the part of many Democrats against the way the Clintons are running their campaign this year.  To frame the discussion as you do is to accuse everyone who opposes what the Clintons are doing of buying into or helping the right wing's arguments.  As someone who treasures valid discourse, that troubles me quite a bit.

      If your purpose is to defang any criticism of the Clintons, you're serving it well with that statement; however, if your purpose is to make for a clean, honest discourse, your statement is inherently troublesome.

      Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

      by mistersite on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:08:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Elections are about the voters. (0+ / 0-)

    As a voter, you're in charge.  Candidates like to think that they "win" or "lose" because it gives them a feeling of control, but the fact is that it's the voters who are in control.

    Now, Republican voters are somewhat different because they've been schooled in obedience.  They're used to doing what they are told and so, of course, the last person who tells them how to vote has an edge.

    But, and this is what I would argue, if we know that Republicans need to be told whom to vote for, all Democrats have to do is tell them.  Don't bother with lots of explanations.  Just assure them it's the right thing to do and leave it at that.  Try it; they'll like you for it.

    How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

    by hannah on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 10:59:07 AM PDT

  •  Remember when we were all united? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shaharazade

    Just a blast from the past:

    "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

    by grannyhelen on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:01:46 AM PDT

  •  Understanding Hillary Hate (8+ / 0-)

    She earned it.  

    I warned about this back in Iowa when she showed a glimpse of what was to come.  When polling showed college students going heavily for Obama instead of Clinton she was suddenly talking about how the Iowa caucus should just be for 'real Iowans.'  Most people saw it as a small thing but as an Iowan living in a college town what I saw was a Washington politician willing to agitate divisions in my town for her own political gain.  

    The warning I gave was that if she's willing to do it in that small way it's an indication of a valueless campaign that will divide people in bigger ways when it suits them.  Then, after Iowa, when black voters were coming to Obama because he had first proven that he can win among whites, Hillary is saying the first clumsy thing she's ever said regarding the black community.  I saw it when she did it.  This will piss off some people in the black community and they'll pin it on Obama playing the 'race card.'  They'll change the story from blacks coming to Obama out of hope to blacks coming to Obama out of unreasonable anger at Hillary.  And it worked like a charm.  They changed the narrative.  They stoked racial tensions to do it but what the hell right?  

    It's the same calculation.  You know you're not getting the students?  Throw them under the bus and see if you can get more of the people who resent the students.  Losing majority black support after Iowa?  Get some black leaders angry which will create a reaction among white voters.  Anyone in her position for the past 30 years knows the type of comments to avoid so as not to tick off different communities.  Counting on the black vote?  Don't say something that could be interpreted as a put down of MLK in any way.  Losing the black vote anyway?  Different story.  

    Pit people against each other when you need to.  That's the politics of Rove and now it's the politics of Clinton too.  

    I admire you for being able to go punch the ticket for her if you have to in November.  She'll never get a vote from me.  

    McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

    by Sun dog on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:02:33 AM PDT

  •  The Clinton's are HURT (0+ / 0-)

    The Clinton's are pissed. This is personal. Change we can believe in? That is a direct attack on Hillary. Go back and watch the debates from Oct., Nov. They beat the shit out of Hillary for two months, basicly accusing her of being a Republican (which is the most hurtful thing you could say to  one of us, true?) and a liar. I went to Obama's rally and he basicly accused not just Hillary but her supporters as well of racism. Look! It's working! The Clinton's are fighting for their lives here. God bless them. I hope they win.

    Waiting for a Woman Republicans DON'T Hate? well........

    by Rabonista on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:02:39 AM PDT

    •  they're HURT because they feel (9+ / 0-)

      threatened by (GOD FORBID) someone else gets to become the new image of the democratic party and so they are willing to play every GOP-karl rove card in the book to slander his name and destroy him.

      •  You just played a GOP-karl rove card... (0+ / 0-)

        ...by perpetuating that the Clintons 'just want to be President' and 'will do anything to become President'.

        I guess you think that ambition is a bad thing?

        See how easy it is to become the GOP when you hate the Clintons so much?

        My keyboard has a tempermental 'B' key; if a word does not make sense then just stick 'B's into it until it does.

        by Terrapin on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:35:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Bullshit (8+ / 0-)

      Obama accused Hillary and her supporters of racism at a rally you went to?  Bullshit.  I've seen the guy in person seven times in the past year and heard hours of him talking.  

      Let's see.  I went and saw Hillary in Iowa last summer and she said she loves George W Bush and just wants to trick Democrats into voting for her so she can destroy Social Security and launch a war against Iran.  Hey!  I can do it too.  It's fun making shit up.  

      McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

      by Sun dog on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:06:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  its also easy to set yourself up (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Zagatzz

        for GOP comparisons when your foreign policy voting record looks like liebermans....

      •  Charleston Sc (0+ / 0-)

        Cistern, CofC.

        Waiting for a Woman Republicans DON'T Hate? well........

        by Rabonista on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:09:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Sometimes people hear what they (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Brecht, Nedsdag

        want to hear - not what was actually said.

        I have to believe if Obama accused Clinton of racism, it's be all over every news outlet.  Every campaign has people that attend and video tape the opponent's rallies just waiting for something like that.  (Macaca, anyone?)

        No link, no foul in my book.

      •  Hear me out (0+ / 0-)

        This may require some critical thinking on your part. Go to South Carolina. Run for president as a black man in the absolute HEART of the Old Racist South (charleston). People of all ages and races are there and they believe in you, to the bone. It's not just politics as usual, it's messianic. People are fucking WEEPING, dig it? Then you tell them that the Clinton's want to shut them all down, that they are oblivious to their feelings, contemptious in fact. Basicly take Obama's standard take on the Clinton's and put it in Charleston SC. It means a lot more to people down here than it could ever mean in Iowa. Obama did not explicitly call them racist. That IS bullshit (sorry), I don't know, but he took them down the wrong path. For a lot of them, If he loses, there aint no going back. I can't wait for this to be over.

        Waiting for a Woman Republicans DON'T Hate? well........

        by Rabonista on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:25:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I take issue with your description... (5+ / 0-)

      ...of Obama's and Edwards's attacks on the Clintons' stances and record as "beat[ing] the shit out of her."  That's exactly how this is supposed to work in a primary campaign; as long as you're honestly looking at what your opponents have said and done (like, say, voting for the Iraq War, voting for Kyl-Lieberman, etc.) it's what's supposed to happen.  If Hillary Clinton was concerned about being attacked for taking right-wing stances on things, she shouldn't have taken right-wing stances on things like Iraq or Iran.

      And let's not forget that the Clinton campaign wasn't exactly sitting there like innocent kittens during that time either.  Anyone remember the Clintons calling Obama "naive and irresponsible"?  Trying to shut down the student vote in Iowa?

      And to rip on Obama for having a theme of "Change we can believe in" because you see it as a "direct attack on Hillary" is pretty ridiculous.  So nobody's allowed to draw contrasts anymore?

      Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

      by mistersite on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:16:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Change we can believe in (0+ / 0-)

        = Hillary is a phony bitch.

        If Obama had been on the scene for more than two years, people would feel the same way about him.

        Waiting for a Woman Republicans DON'T Hate? well........

        by Rabonista on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:34:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Four years (0+ / 0-)

          sorry. I love the guy. I do. Left Politics is my life. I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Ha!
          See you all in Denver.

          Waiting for a Woman Republicans DON'T Hate? well........

          by Rabonista on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:37:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I think your characterization of his slogan... (3+ / 0-)

          ...says more about you than it does about him.  To read that kind of direct attack into his slogan is, in my opinion, a leap and a bound beyond valid.

          I recommend you re-examine the frames you're using for this campaign; to claim that the slogan "Change we can Believe In" is really saying "Hillary is a phony [sexist slur]" really strains credulity.

          Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

          by mistersite on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:40:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  When Obama says that he... (0+ / 0-)

            ...wants to 'avoid the destructive partisan battles of the ninities' (paraphrased) then that is an obvious reference to the GOP effort to remove Clinton from office - and pinning the blame for it on the Clintons.  And, frankly, if anybody believes that that effort was anything other than an unjustifiable attempt at a coup against a popularly elected president then I have to question their Progressive merits.

            It simply is not true that Obama has been 'above it all' in this campaign.

            My keyboard has a tempermental 'B' key; if a word does not make sense then just stick 'B's into it until it does.

            by Terrapin on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:51:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Decorum (0+ / 0-)

    And while the media (and Obama supporters) have been quick to point out how un-presidential Bill Clinton has been in the past few weeks, most Americans seemed unfazed by the Big Dog's attack dog style. It seems as if nostalgia has finally overtaken decorum.

    Yeah, that's the word I think of when I read diaries like this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, and this one: decorum.

    •  With your sig line... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Zagatzz, Nedsdag, shaharazade

      I'm not sure there's much we'll agree on.

      I, for one, am well beyond the point of having patience for the politics of the past.  If that makes me horrible in your eyes, so be it.

      •  It makes you a (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        phenry, Terrapin

        Fair Weather Democrat.

        More happy with the GOP than with a Democrat.

        You advocacy of Obama is that he is the only acceptable Democrat to a Republican White House.

        That statement does your candidate little good around here.

        •  Actually, it makes me an Independent. (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Zagatzz, witchamakallit, Nedsdag

          Perhaps a more grave sin, but the truth.

          Your assumption about my happiness is completely misplaced and inaccurate.

          My dislike for Clinton should not be misconstrued as a dislike for all Dems except Obama.  That is a mistake made much too often by party die-hards around here.

          •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

            It does, because Hillary happens to be the front-runner and has the best chance of securing the nomination.

            Funny how that works out for you?

            Moreover, it is now your contention that Hillary is the only unacceptable Democratic Alternative to any Republican.  That statement does little for your POV and, IMHO, give HRC even more mojo (at least around here).

            Futher, given that Obama will support Hillary if she is the nomineee, it makes me wonder how strong you support for your candidate is?

        •  I resent being called (3+ / 0-)

          a 'fair weather Democrat'. I resent being told that because I cannot support a candidate who does not represent what I believe the Democratic party stands for or my country for that matter I'm supposed to STFU or leave is helping either the party or the nation. I also hate the other thing I hear Get Over It! I won't do any of the three. I'm an active Democrat have been all my life and intend to work my hardest to take back both my contry and my party from the hands of the crony capitalists entrenched corrupt machines .

          The Clinton's represent to me everything that is wrong with our system, so why should I support them. It's their policy stupid, and if you can't see what they represent I fear for the party and futhermore the country. You try canvasing during the general and threatening people who tell you Coke or Pepsi, or they are just the same with this nonsense of getting the hell out or that it's the only the Clinton's or the Rebuplicans and see how far that gets you!    

          "And if my thought-dreams could be seen They'd probably put my head in a guillotine" Bob Dylan

          by shaharazade on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 12:03:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  In the Primaries- (0+ / 0-)

            Support whomever- Edwards is looking pretty good lately for me.

            But in the General, if you do not support our Candidate, you are supporting the Alternative, and that is the GOP.

            This is how Democracy in our Republic works.  It is a lesson the Naderites showed us painfully in 2000.

            It is funny, but it would be amazing if you could not find something in any candidate for any office that you find that you dislike.  Funny that leads to your inaction- it is so much easier for you that way, huh?

            Lower taxes and a good night sleep- who could ask for anything more?

  •  A no no? (0+ / 0-)

    Well shove your no no up your ass.

    I will never, under any circumstances, vote for HRC.

    Fuck your taboo.

    She disgusts me.

    "How high flies the solitary bird."

    by terryhutchinson on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:12:37 AM PDT

    •  My plan is to write in Obama (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Nedsdag

      if I have to.  Hopefully, it won't come to that!

      (I basically said what you said, but have less chance of getting hidden...I think.) :)

    •  McCain says, "Thanks, terryhutchinson!" (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Terrapin

    •  Who said Hillary Hate is a myth? (0+ / 0-)

      This is a prime example right here.

      My keyboard has a tempermental 'B' key; if a word does not make sense then just stick 'B's into it until it does.

      by Terrapin on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:29:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Get out of the Closet (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Tom P, Terrapin

      It will make you feel better.

      Some of my best friend are Republicans.

      Obviously, you see the GOP as a better alternative to HRC.  

      Even downstream, our candidates won't be perfect, I think you'll find something about them that you don't like.

      My bet is that you don't worry about the getting a back-street abortion or have much concern about going to Iraq (or Iran)- maybe affirmative action is something that you can't use anyway.  

      I bet you would like those lower taxes anyway.

      •  How much of an idiot are you? (0+ / 0-)

        You think I won't vote for HRC because there is something I don't like about her?

        I have voted for every Democrat running for national and state level office since I came of age - the good ones and the worthless ones. Men and women. I even voted for broom-up-the-butt John Kerry last time around.

        Not one of them raises the ire in me like HRC.

        What I hate the most about her, I think, is her obvious belief, and that of her groupies, that no matter what she does or says we will all get in line to help her defeat the Republicans in the general.

        I won't. If the choice this country serves up is HRC vs. any republican, then this country is finished anyway.

        If you Hillary butt sucks were really so concerned that we all eat what you are serving - you wouldn't have warmed over shit on the menu.

        "How high flies the solitary bird."

        by terryhutchinson on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 12:08:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  At least a logical idiot (0+ / 0-)

          As opposed to your rude and ad hominem arguments.

          You know, when I lived in NOLA, years ago, I remember a political ad for David Duke.  It was a Black Man who had marched with MLK who was now supporting Duke for whatever office he was seeking at the time.

          People change, you changed (assuming you are being honest).

          HRC is simply not that bad, not nearly as bad the the Republicans and, really, I have seen more bare-knuckle fights than this amongst Democrats.

          I have no doubt that all the other candidates will rally behind her if she is the nomineee.

          But that is not good enough for you, huh?

          As I said, people change.

        •  high-schooler's rant (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Montague

          what is wrong with you?

          you Hillary butt sucks

          Why the hyper-angry tone?

          broom-up-the-butt John Kerry

          Why all the name calling?

          warmed over shit

          I am sure Obama would not want to list you as his supporter.  You've got issues, and this really isn't the place to air them like this.

          Obama lost me when his shills started calling Hillary a racist.

          by Tom P on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 06:27:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  How sad (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        sick of it all, onanyes

        that you are willing to except for a fact that these are our choices and vote for once again the lesser of some pretty evil evils.

        This is still the primary and we havent crowned her yet, so to threaten and name call good Democrats who refuse to except holding your nose and voting or see that their are major differences in our candidates besides style, is stupid. I find this the most depressing thing about this primary. We don't have to go backwards.

        If she is the nominee and she loses in the general you will be whining about those that did not support her rather then why we ran her. What you call HRC hate is not personal it's about what the Clinton's stand for and it's not progressive, and we already went there and back so why do it again.

        I am not in any Republican closet and I find that really rude. I ask you why do you support a candidate who is the closest to the Status Quo of crony capitalism we have. Fear of the Right? Fear is a bad tactic and people are sick of it.  

        "And if my thought-dreams could be seen They'd probably put my head in a guillotine" Bob Dylan

        by shaharazade on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 12:19:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  understanding Clinton supporters (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sick of it all

          remember that she is "their champion" and they have circled the wagons around her.

          If you are disgusted by her, it is because you have either been influenced by that "right wing conspiracy" or are now a part of it.

          Think of them as being like that 29% that continues to support "The Decider", no matter what.

          Never mind that many of us who are disgusted with her misleading mud slinging campaign tactics actually defended the Clintons (and her) when they were the target of right wing smears and many of us want nothing to do with the right wingers who hate her.

          In short, it is possible to engage some of the more reasonable one in discussion, but the best response to many of them is to just ignore them and blow them off.

          When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

          by onanyes on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 12:27:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good analogy. And I think this is (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            onanyes

            what most frustrates me.  When idiot Repugs do it, we slam them.  If it's a lamehorse Dem, then it's ok - it's a Dem, afterall.

            No wonder both parties get bashed and people check out of politics.  Then we get the shit hole of a mess we have now.

            Time for the American electorate to truly be engaged!

            •  I am not a Hillary Supporter (0+ / 0-)

              Yet.

              I am a Democrat.

              I only respond to those that say they will leave the Democrats to their own devices for the WH if HRC is the candidate.

              At best, they are fair weather Democrats and we should not count on their support in any case.

              •  You again? Why do (0+ / 0-)

                I feel like you are stalking me?  You've made your point - repeatedly.  Move on.

              •  Ok, devils advocate here (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                sick of it all

                And I am not doing this to anger anyone but to really ask a question:

                What does it mean that we swallow anyone that the D's nominate?  Isn't there a point where we can morally declare "I am sorry, but this person just isn't acceptable?"

                Example: would you vote for William Jefferson (the $90,000 in the freezer guy)?

                If David Duke decided to become a Democrat, would you vote for him? (btw:  he hates GWB and wants us out of Iraq).

                Now I know that there are legitimate arguments that we haven't reached such a place yet (in this general election).

                When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

                by onanyes on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 12:53:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Non Sequitor (0+ / 0-)

                  If the Dems support such people, they would no longer be Dems.

                  Lieberman is a prime example.

                  There is a line where the Party will no accept you (David Duke is one example) even in a non-contested election.

                  Does HRC cross that line?

                  •  it depends on the line (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    sick of it all

                    Her positions (e. g. votes) are fine, IMHO, though I wish that a vote here or there would have been different (think:  Iraq, Kyl-Lieberman)

                    My beef with her is with some of her campaign tactics.

                    Playing hardball is ok (e. g., getting after O for his energy bill vote (which I understand) or his Dayton amendment vote is just good old political hardball.

                    Saying that he liked Reagan's positions, that he thought that the Republican ideas are good, or saying that he was soft on abortion rights is lying, IMHO, and that does cross a line.

                    Is it a disqualifying line?  Given that the Repukes in this race routinely lie their asses off, no.  But it sure as heck makes me keep quiet about the fact that I would vote for her, if she is the nominee (which I will).

                    When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

                    by onanyes on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:02:08 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Every Time (0+ / 0-)

                      Our Nominee opens his or her mouth, the GOP will spew their vomit into it.  

                      I am afraid it is one of the schticks that Hillary (& Edwards) is running on, that she (& he) is ready of it and Obama is not.

                      I am afraid she is right, Obama needs to show that his "transformational politics" actually works.

        •  I agree 100%. (0+ / 0-)

          How the Democrats can actually believe Hillary will win the general is beyond me.  If she wins the primary, I will once again be shaking my head.  I'm getting used to it, though.

          Those of us who truly hold progressive values and want a better and different way should not have to roll over and play dead just because Hillary Clinton and Bill are in our midst.  Been there, done that.  Not again.

          •  How can Obama (0+ / 0-)

            win the General if he cannot even win the nomination?

            What Hillary and Edwards are throwing at him are child's toys compared to what the GOP Attack Machine will do.

            •  What are you talking about? (0+ / 0-)

              Are you having reading comprehension problems or are you just so blinded by your agenda you can't make sense of other posts...

              Quite frankly, the Clintons' shit is good practice.  I agree that Obama will never make it in the general if he folds to the pathetic Clintons.

              Stay tuned.

              •  Reading Comprehension? (0+ / 0-)

                Isn't this string from the following post?

                Well shove your no no up your a[$$}.

                I will never, under any circumstances, vote for HRC.

                F[*]ck your taboo.

                She disgusts me.

                And isn't your "disgust" relative to her campaign style?  Are you having trouble with HRC's campaign style because it is ineffective?

                •  "This string from the following post"??? (0+ / 0-)

                  I feel like I'm in an episode of the Twilight Zone.  I know you are speaking English, but it is clearly beyond my comprehension...

                  While I agree with the "string from the following post" in a general way, I didn't write it.

                  Your assumptions continue to pile up.

                  I'll leave you to them.

                  •  I guess you are one of those (0+ / 0-)

                    Multiple Personalities that I keep hearing about?  Or are you on a Public Library Computer and posting on what the previous person left open (I have heard of that too)?

                    How else whould I interpret your response to the Parent Post:  

                    (I basically said what you said, but have less chance of getting hidden...I think.) :)

                    Or are you very literal, pointing out that you didn't actually write it even though you "basically said what you said"?

                    I don't know, it is very confusing debating you as you seem disconnected to whatever you say or write.

                    I guess you would call that "assumption", but what most others would call that I'll leave up to you.

        •  I take no issue (0+ / 0-)

          with stands during the Primary Season.  To me, support for Gravel is not misplaced.

          What I find sad are those that advocate that a GOP Presidency is a better alternative to a particular Democrat.

          Let's assume HRC is the candidate:  when your preferred candidate announces support for her, are you going to do a 180 deg and support HRC too?  Will you seek to reach all those that you inspired with your Postings and convince them that you were all wrong, that HRC is worthy of your support?

          Can you look at her policies, at her history, and convince anyone that she is NOT a Democrat, that her POV is all that different from the Other Democrats?  Especially relative to the GOP?

          Puhleeze.  If this is how you really feel, that any GOP Presidency is better than HRC- then you are not only in a GOP Closet, but, additionally and apparently, swimming in de Nile.

    •  you have got some major issues... (0+ / 0-)

      she disgusts me.

      and

      fuck your taboo

      and the terribly-overused-with-the-Obama-supporters

      well shove your no no up your ass.

      Obama lost me when his shills started calling Hillary a racist.

      by Tom P on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 06:34:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There are a couple of bottom lines here (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    witchamakallit
    1. the Clintons pulled out all the stops after their stunning loss in Iowa and the pundits began to write her obituary.
    1. what HRC's campaign has done is remind the "liberals" you mentioned in this article exactly who these people (Bill and Hil) are. these are people who will say or do anything to get elected, at any cost. This is the man who did nothing on Rwanda, dismantled welfare, etc. These are not "nice" people.
    1. The fact that Rubin and other Clinton people came out against these tactics stopped me in my tracks. If HRC wins, who from the old Clinton admin will she have to "run the country on day one?" She won't have the old Clinton people. So, her entire argument, which is that she knows how to run the coun