Daily Kos

First time diary - on the GBCW issue

Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 10:56:14 AM PDT

Many ideas for diaries have come and gone, or come and still linger, waiting for my brain to form proper articulation or a way to make the thoughts more original or profound.  You see, I'm not the type that likes to raise old material and claim it as my own, and I'm not the type that is into stream of consciousness thought.  But here I go, posting on a topic that's been beat to death, and typing pretty much from the hip.

Recently I was going to type up my first diary on the topic of 'keep reading DK, but stop posting in candidate diaries.'  The reason is not because we are tearing apart the party in doing so.  The reason was an observation that the baseball message board I read is dominated by right wingers.  It's my experience that virtually every message board and blog on non-political subject matter also has political discussion, and the vast majority is dominated by hateful rednecks.  Thus, I thought a better outlet for all our angst is to go to the other communities we frequent and fight the good fight there, where it is desperately needed.

Still a good thought, but with the bevy of GBCW diaries based on candidate commentary lately, I feel the need to interject my observations on that subject matter.

Now  I realize that some of what I am about to say is strawman arguments, but I think they do reflect on the reality of what is going on here.  It seems the vast majority of the GBCW diaries are Clinton supporters who have become dismayed at the sentiment of 'I won't vote for Clinton if she wins the nomination' and/or other attacks on Hillary.

First, on the Clinton supporters who leave.  You support the candidate that alleges she is the best candidate because 'she is the one who is tough enough to stand up against the Republicans in the general election.'  You see the problem here?  You're not tough enough to hang with the silenced voices of progressives as they try to rise up, while claiming your candidate is the only one tough enough to stand up to the Republicans.  C'mon.  If you can't stomach attacks from Obama and Edwards supporters, how quickly are you going to run and cower in a corner once the Swift Boating and Willie Hortoning and FlipFlopping begins?

Second, on those who won't vote for Clinton if she wins the nomination, haven't you learned your lessons?  Did your vote for Ralph Nader not teach you how wrong you are?  I have been fighting with Progressives who say "there is no difference between the Democrats and Republicans" for about a decade and a half now.  There is a difference.  While the difference may be subtle, there is a difference.

The difference is the Republicans are actively screwing the American people and shredding the Constitution, while the established Democrats tend to stand by and passively allow the screwing of the American people and the shredding of the Constitution.  

That right there should be difference enough to vote for Hillary.  While a DLC President may not fight the fights you would like them to fight, at least they will slow this madness down.  We are looking at the probability of McCain as the Republican candidate.  His platform is "expand the Iraq War while making the tax cuts  permanent."  Do you not see how vastly different Hillary's positions are?

But there is also another difference in that a DLC candidate is much more likely to be persuaded by progressive arguments.  I want a progressive President more than anyone.  I am not ashamed whatsoever to say that I think Kucinich would make the best President of anyone who ran.  But the shift to progressive policy will  not happen overnight.  If you are given a choice between cutting off your own tongue and eatting an entire salami, you don't try to shove the entire thing down your throat all at once.  You cut it into tiny slices and eat them one by one.  You certainly don't choose to cut off your own tongue, which is exactly what a non-vote for Hillary amounts to in this metaphor.

So I'm not sure if this is a STFU diary or a 'we need to unite' diary.  Probably a little of both.  My suggestion, if you are all pent up with angst at the prospect of Hillary at the candidate, or if you become dismayed that the Hillary trashing is tearing the party apart, read some substantive diaries, then go off to a blog/board on a non-political topics and fight your fight there.

Tags: STFU, GBCW (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 17 comments

  •  I totally agree (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    TracieLynn, triciawyse

    I was wondering this morning why the hell I continue to waste my time and energy at this place when obviously I'm in the tiniest of minorities (as a Hillary supporter), but you have summed up the whole situation quite well.

  •  yep (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    triciawyse, buddabelly, kestrel9000

    ---
    Tired of violent language from right-wing pundits? Buy my book: Outright Barbarous

    by Jeffrey Feldman on Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 11:01:05 AM PDT

  •  Put a star on your forehead (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    triciawyse

    I'd rather be unhappy with President Obama than with President McCain.

    by kestrel9000 on Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 11:04:13 AM PDT

  •  blah. n/t (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    triciawyse
  •  Reverse your second argument (4+ / 0-)

    Hasn't the Democratic party learned they need to put up candidates who are 'big tent' and inclusive, rather than do their best to turn off what should be a solid section of their base?

    I shouldn't HAVE to hold my nose in November and vote for someone I honestly believe is at best marginally to the left of McCain, or hear interviews where they list among their favorite presidents some of the worst republican presidents ever.

    It's like being told to vote in people who just slapped a D beside their name so we can 'clean up the mess' only to find them voting with Bushco 85% of the time.

    By gods, if you're going to be a Democratic candidate you should be voting according to what the left 75% of the country believes, not with the 25% of zombies who will stick with commander codpiece to the end.

    Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

    by drbloodaxe on Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 11:05:31 AM PDT

    •  Well (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TracieLynn, triciawyse, DrMicro

      This is eerily reminiscent of the arguments I heard from Naderites in 2000. Do you really really believe that Clinton is only "marginally to the left of McCain"? Seriously? And I'm an Edwards supporter. Look at their voting records in the Senate. I don't particularly want to see Clinton get the nomination, but if she does, you can bet that I will bust my ass to make sure she gets elected. McCain would be a goddamn disaster.

      -8.75, -8.21 Another White Dude for Obama (4/25)

      by pacotrey on Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 11:12:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i think we should work (0+ / 0-)

        the state & local races, too.

        if we get the house and senate democratic progressive candidates elected, i think that would be the best way to support a democratic president --

      •  Amazingly (0+ / 0-)

        you knew exactly which candidate I meant, heh.

        I actually did vote for Nader in '00, although in a state where it made no difference to the outcome.  Had anyone made me believe the outcome would be even vaguely in doubt, I wouldn't have.  I was stunned that even 20% of Americans would vote for Chimpy.  In '04 I voted Kerry and was thoroughly distraught that 50% of the country was still fooled.

        I think the last 8 yrs have thoroughly shown massive differences between Gore and the Right.

        But both Clintons have deliberately set their sites on campaigning as centrists in their separate campaigns.  If you're campaigning as a centrist, you can'tbe surprised if people say there isn't as much difference between you and the centrists on the other side as they do for people who campaign farther left.

        Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

        by drbloodaxe on Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 12:05:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I mostly agree with you (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          TracieLynn

          I still remember how disappointed I was with Bill Clinton after he got into the White House. However, I'd still rather be disappointed by a Democrat than disgusted and horrified, which is what I will no doubt be if another Republican gets in.

          -8.75, -8.21 Another White Dude for Obama (4/25)

          by pacotrey on Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 12:14:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I mostly (0+ / 0-)

            liked Clinton's performance in office and would have him in my list of decent presidents.  I was grumpy at the end, with the Chinese intelligence business and the final round of pardons, and I think he was wrong on pushing free trade so hard.  But that's hindsight.  At the time, I was one of those who though 'great, free trade, we're going to raise standards of living around the world and get cheaper goods to boot!'  Now that we've seen it in action, we see that in reality, we're lowering our standards of living, and the impoverished folks around the world are still impoverished, as all of the money goes to the company, not the employees.

            Older, more cynical, but yes, the lesser evil is still the lesser evil.  I'd just prefer to actually vote for a non-evil again one of these days ;)

            Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

            by drbloodaxe on Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 12:57:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  'You can't be surprised if people say' (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          TracieLynn

          is a long way from 'there's good reason to think'.

          McCain's no centrist, whatever his media image. How many significant votes has he gone against the Republican whip for? Not many.

    •  On the center, principle v. pragmatism (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      buddabelly

      You are right in that the center is misdefined in this country.  But you then turn around and go to the other extreme.  

      Just because it is right of you doesn't mean it is right.  Others have articulated this in the other diary.  There are vast differences in the policy stances of McCain and Hillary.

      There is a time for principle and a time for pragmatism.  The 2008 general is not the time for principle.  Again, we should have learned this lesson in 2000.

      I will not like having to hold my nose either, but I will do so because it is in the best interests of my country.  Even if it's only marginally better than the alternative, this is not a fight that's going to be won overnight.  

      I want our time to be now too, but the hill we must climb will be much steeper and much longer if we allow another maniac with an R next to his name to hold the White House for another 4-8 years.

      Vote D, no matter who it is.

      •  We have a luxury (0+ / 0-)

        in one sense.  Time.  Come November, hopefully we won't actually have to be holding our noses.

        Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

        by drbloodaxe on Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 12:07:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  "I think Kucinich would make (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    triciawyse

    the best President"

    ME TOO. Not because I think he would be a great president, I just want to see more of his wife.
    What a babe.

    If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

    by TKH on Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 11:21:42 AM PDT

  •  Well, I admit to being an Edwards' Supporter; (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    TracieLynn, geez53

    however I am mortified by all the arguing that is going on around here in Edwards', Hillary's & Obama's names.

    Since when can we not all get along together as fellow Democrats?? Why are we allowing the infighting like this?? We should allow for differences of opinion as members of the Democratic family without trying to start WWIII.

    Economic: -6.88 Social: -3.74 "Do or do not, there is no try." - Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

    by triciawyse on Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 11:28:27 AM PDT

Permalink | 17 comments