Daily Kos

The Iowa Poll’s Huge Assumptions

Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:07:43 AM PDT

The Des Moines Register’s Iowa Poll is considered the "Gold Standard" by pollsters and political junkies alike.  In 2004, the Iowa Poll was the only poll to get the top four Democratic candidates in the correct order – Kerry, Edwards, Dean, and Gephardt.  

Just before the ball dropped in Times Square, the Des Moines Register released its final Iowa Poll for the 2008 Iowa Democratic caucuses.   It showed Barack Obama with 32%, Hillary Clinton with 25%, and John Edwards with 24%.   But the Iowa Poll contains three huge assumptions.  First, that 40% of the participants in the Democratic caucuses will be Independents.  Second, that 60% of the participants will be first-time caucus goers.  And third, that 17% of the caucus goers will be under 35.

  1. Independents

The Iowa Poll assumes that 40% of the Democratic caucus goers will be Independents as well as another 5% Republicans.   There are multiple points of criticism.  First, in 2004 only 20% of the Democratic caucus goers were Independents (19%) and Republicans (1%). And there were no Republican caucuses to siphon off Independents.  In 2008, the Republican caucuses are as contested as the Democratic.  Second, it appears from the limited published data that the Iowa Poll allocates Independents 2 to 1 or more to the Democratic caucuses.  Since registered Democrats slightly outnumber registered Republicans in Iowa and since Bush carried Iowa in 2004 by a tiny margin, it would appear that a small majority of Independents voted Republican in 2004.  (Even though the exit polls said a slight majority of independents voted Dem, the results argue otherwise.) Third, and most importantly, Independents participate in the political process at a significantly lower rate than either Democrats or Republicans. In the 2004 presidential election, Independent turnout was 65% compared to 81% for Democrats and 83% for Republicans – nearly a 20% gap.  The gap is even more pronounced in off-year elections.  In 2006, despite exciting, contested congressional races in Iowa, only 36% of Independents turned out compared to 62% of Democrats and 65% of Republicans – nearly a 30% gap.  It begs credulity to expect high Independent turnout in caucuses that attract only 10% to 15% of the electorate at best.

  1. First-time Caucus Goers

The Iowa Poll assumes that 60% of the Democratic caucus goers will be first-time participants.  In 2004, that figure was only 45%; thus, the Iowa Poll suggests that there will be a 33% growth in first time caucus goers.  The Iowa Poll stated that 72% of Obama’s support comes from first-time caucus goers compared to 58% for Clinton and 55% for Edwards.  All of the figures seem high, especially considering that the turnout in the highly contested 2004 caucuses was high – approximately 17% of registered Democrats.  By deduction, one can determine that the percentage of first-time caucus goers supporting the remaining 19% – second tier candidates and undecideds – is 49%.  Now, this may be interpreted in a couple of ways.  Perhaps the first-time caucus-goers are motivated by one of the top-tier candidates, especially Obama.  Or perhaps there is first-time caucus goer inflation with the 49% figure far closer to what will be the actual turnout.  If such is the case, then the most inflated figures in the Iowa Poll are Obama’s.  Not to mention that Bill Richardson and/or Joe Biden might have a pleasant surprise on Thursday night.

  1. Young Voters

The Iowa Poll assumes that 17% of the Democratic caucus goers will be under 35.  Probably the soberest comparison is with the youth turnout at the 2004 Democratic caucuses at a time when youth were highly motivated by Howard Dean and other Democratic candidates.  It would be wonderful if young people were to participate in the political process at levels comparable to older cohorts; however, this has never been the case ever since the ratification of the 26th Amendment in 1971 lowering the voting age to eighteen.  In fact, a five-point drop in voter turnout between the 1968 and 1972 presidential elections was largely due to lower youth voting.  As Markos Moulitsas discussed recently, caucuses make it even harder for young people to participate since they more often work night jobs, have young children to care for, and have night classes or homework to prepare.  

The Iowa Democratic Party reported that only 10% of caucus goers were under 35, only 4% under 25.  Mike Connery challenged that figure in a MyDD diary, countering that a Circle Poll which focuses on youth issues estimated the participation level at 17%.  Yet, if one looks at the breakdown of Democratic voters in recent Iowa elections, the Iowa Dem Party figures seem much more plausible.  The difference in youth turnout among Democratic voters between the 2004 and 2006 elections is illustrative.  While 19% of the Democratic vote in the 2004 election was made up of voters in the under 35 category, only 12% of the Democratic vote in 2006 came from people under 35.  The 2004 presidential election had the highest level of youth voting; yet still, young people voted far less than older people.  In 2004 in Iowa, only 58% of people 18 to 24 voted and only 61% of people 25 to 34 voted – compared to 85% of people over 50.  The percentages are abysmal in off-year elections.  In 2002, only 22% of people 18 to 24 voted and only 34% of people 25 to 34 voted – compared to 73% of people over 50.  These numbers improved slightly in 2006 with 29% of people 18 to 24 voted and only 36% of people 25 to 34 voted – compared to 77% of people over 50.  See Iowa SOS But the clearest observation is that the youth vote drops off far more precipitously in non-presidential elections than does the older vote.

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What does it all mean?

Well, it appears that the Iowa Poll made three very big assumptions all of which may inflate the numbers for Barack Obama.  Anne Selzer, director of the Iowa Poll, stated that the numbers indicate the conclusions; however, the numbers contradict well-established national and Iowa voting history.  More importantly, polls are weighted with varying percentages of different demographic groups.  To include such high percentages for groups that have never before participated at such levels demands a thorough explanation; yet, none was forthcoming.  

Without going into definitions of independent and dependent variables, suffice it to say that many young voters will be Independents/Not Registered as well as first-time caucus goers.  Although some older voters will be first-time caucus goers and some young voters will be registered Democrats already, the categories have significant overlap.  Thus, you cannot simply modify totals separately for each category.  Lacking the actual data, it is impossible to determine the degree of overlap.  

In conclusion, I believe one can surmise from the above analysis that Obama’s caucus totals are likely to be lower because of the three assumptions in the final Iowa Poll  - the number of Independents, first-time caucus goers, and young people participating.  One of the least discussed ramifications is the impact this may have on second-tier candidates.  Bill Richardson and Joe Biden may likely have a larger percentage in the entrance poll; however, this still may not be enough to overcome the 15% threshold.  Hillary Clinton is likely to benefit from the greater percentage of Democrats and older voters than the poll registered.  John Edwards is likely to benefit most from the greater percentage of Democrats and previous caucus goers.

And the Iowa Poll is likely to lose its luster.

Tags: Iowa Poll, Iowa Caucuses, 2004 Election, John Edwards, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Bill Richardson, Joe Biden, Independents, Caucus Goers, Young Voters (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 40 comments

    •  I LOVE the winner, but... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      johnnygunn

      I believe Biden does better than 2%. And deserves to do better.

      Also, I think Obama does better than Clinton.

      That right-wing hooey sure stunk up the joint. --Steely Dan, "Jack of Speed"

      by journalschism on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:49:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I hope (0+ / 0-)

      that it had more going than the 'order of the candidates'.  If that's all, all the pollsters are out to lunch.  If a poll predicted (just for example) Kerry 26, Edwards 25, Dean 24, Gephardt 23 with an moe of 5%, it also has the correct order.  But the poll that had:
      Edwards 34, Kerry 33, Dean 20, Gephardt 12

      would have been far more accurate.

      Personally, I think DMR turnout model is either sheer genius, or utter crap (my guess is the latter.)  But it really helped Obama b/c of its reputation, and every other polling outfit is scrambling to adjust their own turnout model to some extent.  

      Sometimes, a cackle is the best medicine!

      by ghost2 on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:51:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Pls post a followup tomorrow morning n/t (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Hprof, johnnygunn, Leslie H

    "In Japan, American occupation forces quickly became 50,000 friends. In Iraq, they would quickly become 50,000 terrorist targets. " James Webb, Sep 02

    by ParaHammer on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:11:37 AM PDT

    •  Yes, please do post a follow up (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      johnnygunn, pioneer111

      when more readers are around. I'd like to see some discussion of this by people on all sides who are knowledgeable about the mysteries of caucusing.

      One question I have is where all those young and first time caucus goers are; i.e., are they fairly well spread out across Iowa's 99 counties and precincts?

      If you don't know history, you don't know anything. You're a leaf that doesn't know it is part of a tree. ~Michael Crichton, Timeline

      by Leslie H on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:31:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The word "assumption" isn't really appropriate (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bawbie, Wee Mama, Hprof, Number5, Hope08

    here, the DMR thinks their will be more young voters, first timers and independants because they ask people a series of questions to determine if they are likely to attend. Based on the answers to those questions they can then say that 40% of the identified likely voters this go around are going to be independant.

    The DMR didn't just decide to say they think 40% will be independant this time they actually asked people if they intended to caucas.

    •  The DMR is assuming ... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      m3, journalschism

      That they are telling the truth.

      Which is always dicey, because people lie to pollsters, especially about things they feel they "should" do - like go to caucus.

      The DMR knows Iowan, but here you have a situation where a lot of Iowa indies say that they're going to do something that Iowa indies have never done before, show up to caucus.  That in itself is unusual behavior, which means that the usual rules of thumb no longer apply, and the DMR might be especially at risk of getting snookered.

      The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

      by al Fubar on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:44:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Or everyone else who assumes those (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        johnnygunn

        people are lying will "get snookered".

        This modeling from the Iowa Poll correctly predicted the first timers for Dean not showing up in 2004 and it's the same model.

        Also, the Iowa Poll isn't the only one expecting that turnout.  The Obama campaign is too.

        "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

        by bawbie on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:33:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Except - (0+ / 0-)

          That it gave Gephardt nearly twice the support he actually got.
          Few people mention that boo-boo.

          •  Lower candidates always get less support (0+ / 0-)

            than the polls because they aren't viable in more precincts.  I know Gephardt wasn't viable in my precinct in '04, but Kerry, Edwards and Dean were.

            "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

            by bawbie on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:39:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  2004 predictions ... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            johnnygunn

            Mark Blumenthal discusses this (and much more) in a blog post at Pollster.com. He notes that even DMR called Iowa as much more bunched up than it turned out to be, and it may well have been chance that they got the order right.

            Generally Blumenthal defends DMR, and they are regarded as the best Iowa poll, as Field is in CA. But the fact is that it is one more poll, and it gave Obama an 8 point lead. It bouyed up the Obama people, who had a bad feeling at that moment, and it spooked everyone else.

            But we all know the ground games will decide it, and does anyone really think Obama's will be as good as Edwards'? Hillary's is also doubtless better than people around here are disposed to believe.

            I'll be diarying my prediction: a tie.

            The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

            by al Fubar on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:42:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  No - (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cosbo, Leslie H, hedgey

    The DMR Iowa Poll did make mathematical assumptions about the shape of the population and modelled its weighting accordingly.  Weighting always implies risks and demands a conservative approach.  The definitions of likely and definite caucus goers in nearly every poll is far too generous - partly because to eliminate 85% of respondents and still get a sample size of 800 is awfully expensive.  Given the unorthodox nature of the Iowa Poll's weighting, a thorough methodological explanation should have been available - not just Selzer's word.

    •  Where is there any evidence that they weighted? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      whitetiger

      fivethirtyeight.com: electoral projections done right.

      by poblano on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:34:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Iowa Poll Folks - (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Leslie H, hedgey

        Hold their cards pretty close to their chest as to methodology.
        There is a general methodological statement for the November poll.
        Still, there is no mention of weighting or of the manner in which likely caucus goers are determined. Given the multiple subpopulations - age, gender, party, religion, and more - it would be extremely unlikely that they did not weight.

        http://www.desmoinesregister.com/...

        As others have blogged, if Selzer gets this right she will be considered a guru and can keep her secrets.  If she gets it wrong she will have a lot of explaining to do - especially on the subject of determining caucus goers and weighting.  She has certainly gone way out on the limb.

        •  Meh, that's a little disingenuous (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          bawbie, redhaze

          When she discussed the poll's methodology for 30 minutes on national television AND has been extremely forthcoming on her methodology to Pollster.com's Mark Blumenthal.

          It doesn't seem to me like there was any weighting at all.  And if there was, it was whatever weighting scheme they usually use, and not some "new model" as Mark Penn et. al. have asserted.

          The poll showed more independents and more new caucus-goers for one reason and one reason only: because when they asked those people whether they were prepared to caucus, they said yes.  And if you watch the C-SPAN segment, it sounds like Selzer searched and searched for ways that this could have been some kind of aberrant result, and couldn't find any, and had to conclude that it was an authentic result.

          I would encourage you to read my diary on the DMR poll.

          BTW, I don't think that Edwards should feel all that threatened in Iowa.  It's Hillary who has something to worry about.

          fivethirtyeight.com: electoral projections done right.

          by poblano on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:13:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Hey look, it's Mark Penn! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    johnnygunn, whitetiger, Hope08

    Or maybe just a parrot...

    The war for oil is a war for the Beast The War on Terror is a war on peace

    by El Yoss on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:32:34 AM PDT

  •  I assume you watched Selzer's 30 mins on CSPAN (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cwkraus4clark

    If not, here are the videos.

    fivethirtyeight.com: electoral projections done right.

    by poblano on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:41:39 AM PDT

    •  Caught Most of It - (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hedgey, journalschism

      I agree with some stuff - disagree with other stuff.
      Let's face it - it is hair-pulling to poll the 2008 Iowa caucuses.

      Moving the caucuses forward into the holiday period adds a huge variability that is tough to control for.  I agree that she polled the best days possible to get a result as close to the caucuses as possible - weekend or no weekend.  The college student thing is tougher.  In state - out of state?  Of the four major universities in Iowa - two resume on Jan 14th and two on Jan 22nd.  What can one safely infer?  The cell phone thing is yet another layer.  Do you risk underpolling young people?  Do you risk duplication?  How do you random sample out-of-state cell numbers used in state?

      I don't begin to have a solution to any of these, but that would suggest even greater caution in areas that one might be able to have a degree of control over.  The 55% Democratic participation number is so far beyond historical evidence that is ought to require significant verification.  It was 80% in 2004 with a VERY contentious campaign and no Republican caucuses. I'm afraid that in her zeal to find a new approach that Selzer has jumped the shark.

      •  She didn't try and "find a new approach" (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        bawbie, whitetiger

        This is the fundamental error in your line of thinking.  The poll used the same methodology that it always did.  It just found a different result.  She didn't doctor the results.  On the contrary, she tested various hypothesis for why the result might be aberrant, and returned to the null hypothesis: to let the results speak for themselves.  That's not just good polling, it's good science.

        By the way, the ABC-WaPo poll was also detecting a surge of new caucus goers in Iowa.  If you look at their internals:

        Percentage of new caucus-goers:
        7/31/07  31%
        11/18/07 36%
        12/17/07 45%

        fivethirtyeight.com: electoral projections done right.

        by poblano on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:18:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Only 35% of Iowa Independents - (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          hedgey

          Bothered to vote in 2006.
          (Compared to more than 60% of Dems and Repubs)

          This is a nationwide pattern repeated in many elections.  Independents come closer to Dems and Repubs in presidential years, but lag by large margins in all other elections.

          And you are suggesting that Independents, half of whom voted for Bush in 2004, are going to pour out in never-before-seen numbers to the Democratic caucuses?

          There is another explanation for the DMR poll results - even if everything was done carefully and methodically - sometimes you get an extreme outlier.  It's unfortunate and expensive - especially this close to the caucuses - but Selzer's model requires her to ignore the entire pattern of independent voting over the past two decades.

          If you need 217,000 caucus goers, only 55% of whom are Dems, in order to have Obama win - then you are taking a huge crap shot.

          •  Indies broke 2:1 for Dems in 2006 (0+ / 0-)

            And remember, this is party registration, not self-identification.

            A lot of these people who are registered as independents already identify as Democrats and would be picked up that way in other polls.  It's just that Selzer has the unusual advantage of having actual voter registration rolls, so she's reporting their actual registration status, rather than how they self-identify.

            And also, perhaps Obama needs a 200K+ turnout to win in a landslide.  He doesn't need that much to win, period.  He should be in fairly good shape at even 150K.

            fivethirtyeight.com: electoral projections done right.

            by poblano on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:41:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The Fly in the Ointment - (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              hedgey

              There still were only 35% of indies voting in 2006.

              For your numbers to work it would require 49% of Independents (87,000 out of 182,000) who voted Dem in 2006 to caucus while only 33% of Dems (119,500 out of 365,000) who voted Dem in 2006.  (The most recent baseline)  So your underlying premise is that - despite a history of much lower participation - all of a sudden Independents will caucus at a rate significantly higher than actual Democrats.

              It is ludicrous.

  •  The Ron Paul factor (4+ / 0-)

    A non-trivial % of young firstimers who in any other year would be Ds will be going cross the hall. (the weed vote.)

    This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
    This is only a test.
    If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

    by ben masel on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:44:51 AM PDT

  •  The youth vote projections are ridiculous (6+ / 0-)

    It's like Dean all over again, but this time the DMR decided that young people actually will show up for Obama?  I'm not buying it.  

    Hell, if it happens, great.  If Obama can really motivate younger voters and get them to vote in the general, then we'll win by a landslide.  

    I tend to feel that Obama's post partisan rhetoric (aka bullshit) probably resonates the best with people who are young and naive (young people), or who have no clue what is going on (independents).  At the same time those are the two most worthless voting groups in terms of actually getting them to vote.  

    Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

    by Asak on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:51:15 AM PDT

  •  PS - (3+ / 0-)

    Young voters. The poll shows 17 percent of likely Democratic caucus-goers are under age 35. In 2004, there were 17 percent who were under age 29. So, maybe too much has been made of the so-called "youth vote." Obama's people have always said they would be gravy on his victory and they are. He gets more from boomers but loses with the old fuds.  They like Clinton and Edwards.

    This is why a lot of Obama folks give lie to the meme of "togetherness".
    Obama has repeatedly used generational division to advance his campaign.
    Unfortunately for Obama, older people vote a hell of a lot more.

  •  A Puzzling Poll Assumption (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    johnnygunn, pioneer111, LI Mike

    The Iowa Poll assumes that 40% of the Democratic caucus goers will be Independents as well as another 5% Republicans.

    In other words, 45% of the Democratic Caucus Goers will not be Democrats.

    So, if that assumption is correct, is this really a Democratic Caucus, or what?  

    What you see is what you get, but what you don't see is what ends up getting you.

    by Existentialist on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 04:05:25 AM PDT

    •  They won't be Democrats when they show up (0+ / 0-)

      but they have to change their registration to caucus, so they will be Democrats when they leave.

      It's called building a party, being inclusive and bringing in new blood. It's a good thing!

      "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

      by bawbie on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:36:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Registered Ds simply stopped answering the phone. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    epcraig, johnnygunn, hedgey

    Selzer was able to reach a lot more independents because they hadn't been so bombarded by calls and therefore hadn't quit picking up the phone.

    •  interesting point (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      johnnygunn

      This is something that I've thought about, but I always assumed that the DMR poll would at least do some weighing to take this into account.  For example, if independents are 40% of the electorate, but 50% of the people answering the phone, then I assume they would have weighed for that.  But people here are saying that they did no weighing whatsoever.  So I think the point your making is accurate.

      The problem (well, it's a problem from my perspective) is that the DMR poll may have been a self-fulfilling prophesy.  Even if it were inaccurate, the tremendous media it generated may have shifted the dynamics of the race in the last few days.  For example, what if only 25% of the caucusers are independents, but Obama wins anyway.  Will the DMR be proven right, in that they correctly Obama's victory, or will they be proven wrong, in that their faulty findings about how many independents would participate ended up influencing the vote itself so that, in the end, more Democrats voted for Obama?

    •  I think you're wrong (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      johnnygunn

      My wife and I are registered Dems.   My parents are registered independents.  Their phone has rang nearly as much as ours over the last several months.

      "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

      by bawbie on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:37:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  No, the DMR poll does not make those assumptions (0+ / 0-)

    Those are reports of what voters told the pollsters.  Selzer did not change her methodology or her screens.  She did not make turnout assumptions; her data told her the things you object to.

  •  Don't Be Confused by the term "Independent" (0+ / 0-)

    Commentators and posters seem to be assuming that "Indendents" in this poll, means persons registered "No Party."

    But the DMR pollsters did not ask about registration.  They asked how voters considered themselves at this moment.  Many of the "Independents" in this poll may be registered Democrats who consider themselves independent.  That was a significant factor in 2004.

    •  DMR doesn't ask for registration because (0+ / 0-)

      The DMR poll samples not from any proxy of general population, but directly from the voter registration  list, as stated in the C-Span video. They list affiliation, not by self identification, but by the actual registration status of the individua on the registration list they are sampling.

  •  Whatever. Everybody go vote. (0+ / 0-)

    Obama never relied on Inevitability.  He never had a Poll Cult.  People vote for him because the want HIM, not because the polls indicated there's no other viable choice.

    As long as the polls show there's reason to get out there and vote, all the relevant questions are answered.  

    "For a man who will turn 72 this month, he's a surprisingly immature politician--erratic, impulsive and subject to peer pressure"-Newsweek.

    by Inland on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:24:20 AM PDT

  •  The oddest thing ... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    johnnygunn

    Is that the DMR says that participation by Dems will only increase by about 10 percent, while more than 3x as many indies will show up.

    My theory, worth what you paid: Traditionally, indies haven't paid much attention to Iowa's partisan caucuses. But the few indies who told pollsters they were going to show up to caucus were probably telling the truth, because they had no impulse to lie - it wasn't like asking them how often they exercise or go to church, but more like asking if they go birdwatching.

    Now, however, you have a lot of revival-tent enthusiasm for Obama among Iowa indies. They came down to the rail and received Jesus, and they ain't gonna sin no more. So when the DMR calls, they swear they'll be there tonight to caucus.

    But the revival tents are filled with zealous converts who never end up darkening the door of a church, and a lot of them will be right back in the bars and bordellos tonight.

    The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

    by al Fubar on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:28:18 AM PDT

  •  The turnout % cited (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    johnnygunn

    for off and on years -- are they for the general elections? If the % cited are for the general election then I don't think they are applicable to this caucus.

    I've done a lot of GOTV and I've yet to be awed by the indy or youth turnout. This is not to say that Obama won't win or do well, but I just have to believe that the youth/Indy vote won't be there in the numbers projected in this poll.

    •  They Compare - (0+ / 0-)

      General elections to off-year elections.

      There is an overall drop-off of participation in Off-year elections, but it is steepest among Independents and young voters.  Given such a drop-off among these groups (nationwide, in many election cycles), it seems unlikely that they would surge in an electoral process that requires significantly more effort to participate and has an even lower overall participation rate than off-year elections.

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