OK The Clinton Bashers...I cannot take it anymore...you win!

No I am not leaving DKos but I am taking a break for a while.  I cannot take the negative karma of the comments within our DKos community so I am taking a short break.  I am finding it too draining to constantly fight the negative feelings here with constructive talk and being labelled a troll or worse a RW Republican for saying defending a Democrat.

I love DKos but I have found myself, engaged in unhealthy battle with people who I don't understand and can't grasp the depth of their anger and negative passion and energy.  The amount of time and energy I have spent over the past 2 weeks trying to turn that negativity into a positive debate is mind numbing and not good for my career and business.

The mind numbing time I have spent defending the Clinton administration against all sorts of charges and attacks that no matter how you feel about Hillary to me seem unfounded.  The transferance of the evil GWB and what he has done to this country and blame it on the Clinton's when they tried to do so much good and were willing to lose the Democratic majority in order to get our fiscal house in order.  They knew the stakes were high and that they could get punished at the election box for balancing the budget...but they thought it was worth it for the good of the country.

If it weren't for 537 votes (and a stolen election in FL) we would not be talking about the largest deficit and national debt in the history of the world, we would be talking about what great things we can do with our surplus...like replacing the internal combustion engine in 10 years...but unfortunately it did not work out that way and we ended up with GWB and the rest is as they say history.

I am still undecided for 2/5 primary in NJ and will probably decide over the weekend or even as I am walking to the voting booth next Tuesday.  I hope and pray that Democrats and Kossacks come together when the primary is decided whoever wins.  I love the debate and the community and I will be back in a few weeks

I love this country, when I travel abroad, I defend this country (not our current President) but I defend our people and country as a great country and great people with a temporary confused and deranged leader that will hopefully change soon.  I believe we are at the beginning of a pendulum swing to the left but as all swings to the Right and Left are, they are temporary as was one of the genius of the founders of our country to keep the politics of our country trending towards the middle and divided government not power vested solely with the Right or Left.  

So as much as my progressive DKos friends would like to believe that we can create a progressive/liberal country and govern with a majority, I do not believe that was the founders intent nor do I believe that is sustainable in the long-term as there are built in firewalls that keep the pendulum from swinging too far left or right.

In the end, our enemies are the NeoCons and the RWSM who will do anything an say anything to keep power and keep us from fixing the country from the damage caused over the last 8 years.  I believe we will do that and can do that.   Keep up the good fight and try to get along...Peace and Go Democrats!!!!

•  Take care everyone...I will check in on...

  this diary and then will be checking out for a while when it moves off the top 50...Love to you all

  Peace...Go Democrats!!!!

  by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:26:26 AM PDT

  •  Maureen Dowd is not my role model.....

    Also gearing up for a break on the elections.  This is all personality and very few issues.

    by murrayewv on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:31:55 AM PDT

  •  No disrespect

    but why don't you start showing some remorse on how she (they) have been making up stories about Obama. When you are done doing that, then we can compromise.

    by christine20 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:51:23 AM PDT

    •  Because this diary appears to be directed at

      supporters, not their candidates.  Particularly kossack supporters.  The level of disrespect that all of the camps show each other is far worse than anything any of the candidates, or their surrogates, have done.

      by Marcus Tullius on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:54:58 AM PDT

      •  This is a personal break from...

        debating points about what IMHO are unfair attacks on candidates and their positions and tactics...I understand and respect all Kossacks viewpoints and we are at a point where we agree to disagree...and that is fine.

        Just a vacation...I will be back and will never leave

        Peace...Go Democrats!!!

        by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:19:05 AM PDT

    •  Ummm....

      that's called POLITICS, my friend. If you can't take extraordinarily mild stuff they dish out in the US, try living in Italy for a while. Jesus H. CHRIST!!! You have not the slightest idea. the government has COLLAPSED because a nutcase mafioso with 1% of the popular vote (but three seats in the Senate) decided that the rest of the coalition was not appreciative enough of his herculean efforts to corrupt the guidiciary branch. So he switched to the center-right and now supports Berlusconi.

      Also, what the hell do you think the Republicans will do to Obama, if he should, improbably, win the nomination?? "Oh, what a nice, honest black fellow". LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      by gilgamesh on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:02:21 AM PDT

      •  I have no problem with the...

        debate and the politics, I just cannot afford to spend anymore personal energy on the debate at this time...I have a business to run and family to love and spend time with.

        I have spent way too much time trying to convince people on this site to call out issues and tactics you disagree with but try not to bring in extraneous issues that have no real bearing on the Democratic decision making process.

        Also when almost every diary somehow gets comments about a candidate negative even when that is not germaine to the Diary Author's topic, it gets a little tiresome.

        Just a vacation...I will be back and will never leave...

        Peace...Go Democrats!!!

        by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:16:16 AM PDT

    •  What stories? You mean the race grievance agit-

      prop that, literally, a handful of supporters (and only one state campaign staff) allegedly said that was spun to sound "racist" when we've got Jesse Jackson, Jr., and the Rev. Joseph Lowery (especially this moron) making racial statements against Hillary?

      DKos: the online community living in a cyber-box of its own creation.

      by Superskepticalman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:16:04 AM PDT

    •  I cannot imagine what you are talking about.

      All of the negativity I have seen has come from Obama supporters.  Look at the comments from the Obama supporters on every blog.  They are all filled with name-calling and false accusations.  All of the whining I have seen has come from the Obama campaign.  IMO it was Obama who injected the idea of racism in the South Caroline campaign because it would help him and then he began pointing and crying it was the dreaded Clintons who are the racists.  Yes, it actually did help him in South Carolina but we will have to see if it also helped him in the rest of the country.  I expect that "class" will win in the end and we will all celebrate when Hillary wins and is elected the next POTUS.  It cannot happen too quickly in my opinion.

      by macmcd on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:51:22 AM PDT

      •  I understand and respect...

        all of the diverse views on DKos and they all have some merit...I do not have anymore time to debate these points with different supporters/detractors of candidates...

        I am just taking a vacation...I will be back and will never leave

        Peace....Go Democrats!!!

        by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:22:39 AM PDT

    •  Too bad ran out of hide buttons today nt

      by PJ Jefferson on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:57:31 AM PDT

    •  I really don't have any issues...

      with how any of the Democrats have run their campaigns...it all comes out in the wash and when they go over the line as some would contend they get punished at the polls as some would view the SC election result as proof of that.

      My view is Barack Obama can take care of himself and should and with supporters like you, the other candidates negative campaigning will have no place to hide...keep up the good work on calling "a spade - a spade"

      Peace...Go Democrats!!!

      by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:11:46 AM PDT

  •  I'm out of here, too.

    Good luck to the rest of you.

    by ShaShaMae on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:37:05 AM PDT

•  Three points.

  If you don't like candidate Hillary bashing, why did you omit Edwards from the equation?  Point two, I still believe that Hillary is going to win.   Three, this place and many people in it right now are nuts and obnoxious.  Hopefully it will pass.

  by dkmich on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:32:05 AM PDT

  •  I guess because...

    even though I am still undecided...I am an unabashed Bill Clinton fan...and the worst attacks that get under my skin are the IMHO nitpicking of the Bill Clinton presidency in order to make their case against Hillary...I know Bill injected himself into the campaign so his record is fair game...IMHO the attacks on his record of an overall great presidency is unfounded...

    I may be convinced to vote for either of the 3 remaining candidates but I will never be convinced that Bill Clinton was a bad POTUS...

    That being said, unfair negative attacks on any of the 3 Democratic candidates would make me angry.

    Just taking a vacation...Will be back will never leave

    Peace...Go Democrats!!!

    by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:27:09 AM PDT

•  The reason I continue to subject myself to...

  ...this punishment? The certain knowledge that when Hillary gets the nomination then all the anti-Hillary diaries will go away. Try posting an anti-Hillary diary during the GE and watch how fast you get banned.

  Otherwise I will continue to be supportive of my choice no matter how much the faux-Democrats whine and threaten to take their vote over to the evil side. Its a matter of keeping up the moral of the true Democrats. I owe it to Dkos and my Democratic party.

  Good diary. See you on feb 6th.

  by Psychotronicman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:32:23 AM PDT

  •  it won't be over on feb. 6

    it's going to be a long haul, maybe right up to the convention.

    by Turkana on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:39:23 AM PDT

    •  Sigh...You're probably right...

      ...but if Hillary has the stamina to get through this then I guess so do I.

      Go Hillary!

      by Psychotronicman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:42:44 AM PDT

      •  heh

        go edwards!

        but i'll be happy to vote for hillary, should she be nominated.

        by Turkana on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:44:29 AM PDT

  •  It won't go away.

    It will appear less, but as soon as she was sworn in and started disappointing us (which, to be honest, any of them would do) they'll be back bigtime.

    by cjallen on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:45:01 AM PDT

    •  Wow, my tenses are all screwed up.

      by cjallen on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:48:53 AM PDT

    •  Yep...

      that starts to sound a lot like the self-destructive moderate-to-hard-left-wing coalitions all over the rest of the planet. I see the Democratic party as such a coalition. If it DOESN't unite eventually behind one candidate, it's over. You're all going to have to face a very disturbing prospect now: Hillary versus McCain. The focus of all Democrats everythere should now be on how to stop John McCain. It's NOT going to be easy. Indeed, I don't think you can do it even with Obama. But good luck.

      by gilgamesh on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:14:59 AM PDT

      •  I think it is especially true that:

        I don't think you can do it even with Obama

        I haven't seen Obama actually do much but try to run like a "rock star" and to get very young and first-time voters to vote once.  Having been a young and first-time voter once, I, too, was sure that my candidate was the only one who made any sense and who could save the world.  I grew up and got over it.  Now, I look for the candidate who has the best ideas and firm plans for how to accomplish the job at hand.  I don't look for poetry in a speech; I look for common sense and plain logic. I have been surprised and impressed at how well Hillary has done in all of the debates.  For those of us who watch them, she is hands-down the winner of the Obama-Clinton faceoffs.  While I love John Edwards and have supported him financially I have known, in my heart, that Hillary would be the one who would finally prevail.

        Yes, Kucinich most closely matches what I would wish for but Hillary is the candidate who, it seems to me, would be able to make it possible.

        by macmcd on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:07:16 AM PDT

        •  You don't need to...

          convince me about Hillary's competence and infinite superiority over the Republican candidates. I'm not sure I will be able to vote in the primaries anyway. In the general, I can enthusiastically and unreservedly support either candidate. I don't think that Obama is ALL show, however. He does have a great deal of that and that is no SMALL thing, in itself, in the process of getting elected and electability, etc..(see Silvio Berlusconi!!). I think they are very, very close on the issues. The both have weaknesses: Hillary DID vote to authorize the war in Iraq and has never apologized or clearly lamented that fundamental error. It's a sign of hasty, bad judgment with regard to foreign policy and a desire to look STRONG at the expense of clear, an careful analysis.

          In sum, I think that Obama has a better record and better, more consistent positions on foreign policy;  they are about equally liberal and progressive on social issues (what matters to me the most); and Hillary is better on things like universal health, social security and the economy in general.

          Right now, I'm "cheering" for the O-man, but I could certainly STRONGLY support Hillary. My hope is that the majority of Dems feel as similarly optimistic and non-hostile about both candidates as I do.

          McCain's a tough cookie either way.

          by gilgamesh on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:02:34 AM PDT

    •  Policy differences are a positive...

      debate topic and are always welcome as we lobby our newly elected Democratic POTUS and Congress to fix as many of the GWB screwups as possible as quickly as possible...

      Peace....Go Democrats!!!

      by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:29:55 AM PDT

      •  The problem in this primary

        campaign is that the real policy differences are not substantial.

        So it comes down, to personal opinions on whether the canidates mean what they say, personal affiliation and seemingly some generational shifts.

        by Osiris on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:06:25 AM PDT

        •  That is what makes the decision so difficult..

          by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:20:23 AM PDT

  •  I think you will be surprised how long anti-Hil

    material will be tolerated here.

    I don't see a good 2008 for DKos at this point no matter who wins the nomination.

    by Superskepticalman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:17:19 AM PDT

  •  You have more free time and energy...

    Than I do...Peace...Go Democrats!!!

    by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:28:10 AM PDT

•  and the bullies win, again

  i'm sorry to read this, but i'm glad it will only be for a while.

  by Turkana on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:37:59 AM PDT

  •  Nobody is winning...this is a personal decision..

    to focus on my business and family for a while...

    Peace...Go Democrats!!!

    by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:54:35 AM PDT

•  Wow-

  were willing to lose the Democratic majority in order to get our fiscal house in order,

  If that's not spin, I don't know what is.  Some of us have perfectly reasonable to criticize the Clinton admin- NAFTA, deregulation, privatization, welfare reform, DADT, DOMA, no energy policy, etc., etc., etc.  Others can't support someone who voted for the war.  I object to the purpose and very existence of the DLC, which both Edwards and Obama have one or two associations with, but Clinton co-founded, and Hillary chairs one of their committees.  I don't see why such objections are unreasonable.

  But I'll certainly vote for any Democrat who's at the top of the ticket this fall.

  by cjallen on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:43:18 AM PDT

  •  I don't know why he is complaining about

    criticism in general and then turns it into a pro-Clinton diatribe. I think some of the criticism of Mr. Clinton is misplaced, except when speaking of policies that we would like changed.

    Ms Clinton had no known role in the particular Clinton era policies, but she should be judged solely on her record. Aside from her support of the Iraq war, the original FISA, etc, she has been reasonable.

    The tones of the pro-Clinton people leaving are odd to say the least and have been condescending at best and insulting at worst. It is almost as if it were an orchestrated effort to discipline dKos for the questioning of Ms Clinton and her electability. It is odd that it is happening all at once.

    I know that I have been "stalked" by Clinton supporters, called a freeper, sworn at and unfairly troll rated by so-called Clinton supporters for criticizing Mr. Clinton's belligerence and for once suggesting that he was known to stretch the truth a tad. From my viewpoint as a relatively neutral observer (neither Clinton nor Obama is my 1st choice), the Clinton folks are at least as guilty of brazen attacks and unfairness on dKos as any other group.

    What the Clinton supporters do not know is that I lived for a long time among the folks they need to win over to get elected. The Clintons are just not well loved among them.

    by shigeru on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:14:56 AM PDT

    •  Other than the fact that she...

      Put all of her and her husband's political chips in to get universal health care...it failed due to the RWSM and lobbying from health insurance industry...but they were willing to fight to the end for that and even lose congress to get it...that is a fighter to me...FWIW

      by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:45:27 AM PDT

      •  I thought they lost congress

        to balance the budget?

        by shigeru on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:01:39 AM PDT

        •  Both issues were to blame for the losses...

          raising taxes to balance the budget and the RWSM about Universal Healthcare (Unfairly dubbed HillaryCare if you recall)

          by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:05:31 AM PDT

  •  You must not be aware of the dreadful condition

    the country was in when President Clinton was elected in 1992.  Those of us who were there and had been financially destroyed by Reaganomics revere Clinton and understand the horrendus situation when he came to office.  I still recall Bob Dole stating that, even in the minority, he would see to it that nothing Clinton proposed would be passed.  The Reagan/Bush administrations had spun a toxic tale about how the country had to be run and they had unlimited resources from the insurance and other industries to inundate the country with fear-inducing commencials about any and all things they disagreed with.  I see the country as being in a similar situation now except that some of the most liberal progressives want to take over the government and move it to the left.  Unfortuantely, Obama is not a candidate who would be able to do that.  I haven't seen anything in his actions so far that indicate that he even has that intention.  It is almost as if those Obama supporters have drunk the Republican Kool-Aid. They seem willing to support a Republican before they allow anyone else begin the huge task of repairing the damage Bush has done.

    by macmcd on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:19:03 AM PDT

    •  Nearly a miracle...

      ...that we got to a budget surplus after 12 years of "supply-side" garbage...

      But try explaining this to the Clinton-haters?

      Yesterday, one of them referred to Bill Clinton as a moderate Republican...[yes, I ripped his face off]...

      When was the last time a moderate Republican raised taxes on the well-off? Eisenhower, I think...

      Lotsa luck talking to this crowd, macmcd.

      by Saxman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:24:05 AM PDT

      •  I think that is why Obama only does

        really well with very young voters.  They are the ones who don't remember what a nightmare Clinton took over from Bush and what a good job he did with being POTUS under very difficult circumstances.  I will always be grateful for the excellent job he did.

        by macmcd on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 09:17:28 AM PDT

  •  The reason why I am a committed Kossack...

    is that I am not a committed progressive as Kos says,"

    This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog. It's a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory. And since we haven't gotten any of that from the current crew, we're one more thing: a reform blog. The battle for the party is not an ideological battle. It's one between establishment and anti-establishment factions. And as I've said a million times, the status quo is untenable

    That is me...I am progressive on some issues, moderate on others and even conservative on a few issues.

    So many of the progressives on this site that point to some of Bill Clinton's moderate/conservative leaning achievements...I do not necessarily agree that they were in fact bad policy at the time...unfortunately in the GWB administration many of these sound policies were made much worse and perverted...A Gore administration would have moved many of the centrists policies more leftward...but that did not happen.

    I have no fundamental problem with the DLC, Blue Dog Democrats...they are part of the family and have valid input into the solutions to our problems.

    That being said, I understand and respect the view of progressives and their viewpoints on Moderate/Conservative Democrats...that is what I like about this site...

    If progressives want to hear only progressive Democratic ideas there are other blogs dedicated to only progressive views...DKos (according to Kos) is not.

    Peace...Go Democrats!!!

    by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:53:37 AM PDT

•  

  

  by Marcus Tullius on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:48:17 AM PDT

•  Obama would not accept the VP (N/T)

  by shigeru on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:57:19 AM PDT

  •  Then...

    he is truly an arrogant, naive and resentful fool, after all. And, lately, I have supported his nomination for President. Hmmmm..... It would be an outstanding ticket. But you left-wing fundamentalists can't even go for that, eh??

    This blog really has become an irrelevent, Edwards-cult site.

    by gilgamesh on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:06:37 AM PDT

    •  Then ......

      you will forgive me for troll rating you for negative, personal and non-productive attacks.

      by shigeru on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:17:55 AM PDT

    •  aww, now, I think they're two different things

      the Edwards culties (like me) are a whole different group from the candidate bashers.  I mean, in case you haven't noticed, we've been a little bit too busy losing to waste our time bashing other people's candidates.  That's what makes an underdog so darned adorable.  ;-)

      by thisniss on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:19:29 AM PDT

  •  How do you know this?

    by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:32:45 AM PDT

    •  My opinion. Much like your comments are yours

      In fact the VP would probably not be offered to Obama anyway for a variety of reasons. These include Ms Clinton has not won yet, if she does win she will likely need a southern representative in order to carry any southern state (except po Ark), and lastly Obama would be silly to accept given the Clinton family dynamics. Running two sitting senators on the same ticket has also not been a historically winning combo.

      It was rumored that two people Ms Clinton was considering were Pryor (Ark) and Bayh (Ind). Neither of these particularly turned me on.

      by shigeru on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:10:31 AM PDT

      •  Interesting POV...appreciate that analysis...

        Peace...Go Democrats!!!

        by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:19:23 AM PDT

        •  Whoever the winning candidate is I

          wish her/him well.

          The VP selection is always interesting to me because it points out where the cand thinks his/her weakest area might be and it also can foreshadow whether the cand might drift to the right or left if elected.

          More fun and games later this year.

          by shigeru on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:26:24 AM PDT

•  Greetings, people of Hillarth

  Obama will come within 5% of Clinton in California, and within 10% of Clinton in NY, and, yes, this primary season will be, morally, over as of February 6.

  by TomY on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:16:06 AM PDT

  •  Thus speaks a citizen of Oceania (n/t)

    by Superskepticalman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:18:41 AM PDT

    •  is that like an allusion

      to Orwell or something? Vaguely rings a bell, but can't quite place it.  

      While I am on this, I've sometimes thought that the fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals is which nightmare vision of the world they view as scarier, 1984, or Brave New World.  Apropos of nothing.  

      Anyway, back to the diary topic, yeah, there's a lot of flack on dKos these days, but it's coming from all sides.  I'd posit that the main reason it looks like the site is top-heavy on pro-Obama flack against Hillary is that, well, there just happen to be vastly more Obama supporters here than Clinton supporters, at least at this time.  I doubt anyone can say for sure that there's a disproportionate amount of crap from one side or another.

      by TomY on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:31:57 AM PDT

      •  Well, Hillary supporters don't see their...

        candidate as the living embodiment of all their hopes and dreams. FCOL, Obama's just a Chicago pol. Most candidate supporters know their candidates' strengths and weaknesses. Obama supporters seem to think he's the Messiah.

        by Superskepticalman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:47:53 AM PDT

        •  don't agree with

          your general characterization of "Obama supporters".

          But in any case, flack is flack, whatever the mind-state of the gunners.  And there's plenty of anti-Obama-supporter flack, and plenty of anti-Hillary-supporter flack.  Not sure your comment is really responsive to my point about whether the flack is disproportionate. Mainly your comment is, well, just another broadside against "Obama supporters".  So maybe your comment kind of just points up the more general problem that's the concern of this diary.  

          Well, look, we're all Dems, right.  Glad to be on the same side with you

          by TomY on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:57:26 AM PDT

          •  Asymmetry

            HRC supporters would UNIVERSALLY support Edwards or Obama (if either of them won the nomination)...

            Can you say the same for Obamites? Don't bother lying. The Obamite willingness to lose the election, the Supreme Court and everything else (if he loses) is the sign of fanaticism.

            Flack is not flack...Obama flack is a mental disorder that prevents people from voting their own interests...

            by Saxman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:13:36 AM PDT

            •  ya know

              I think your comment is a little bit harsh.  Saying things like "Don't bother lying."  "a mental disorder".  I don't think I've deserved that.  I don't come here to pick a fight with you or anyone else.  Also, you make some huge generalizations.  In other words, your comment is exactly the kind of comment that you and other Hillary supporters complain of on the part of Obama supporters.  Man, look, we're all human beings, remember? trying to make a living, and maybe do a little bit of good.  Why are you so vicious

              by TomY on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:38:12 AM PDT

              •  Many months of watching this place decay...

                It is going to get worse before it gets better. Some of the things I've heard said about Bill & Hillary Clinton are an ABOMINATION on a Democratic website.

                The Obama-people are coming to resemble the Christian-right in their fanaticism: any lie is a good one, because it is for a good cause (electing Obama). They are willing to throw good lifelong liberal Democrats under a bus (Andrew Cuomo, for one), for "the cause".

                They accuse Bill Clinton of being a Republican, HRC of being a war-monger (and those are the nice comments).

                This was a nice place to come hear about Congressional races, about Howard Dean's effort to rebuild the party.

                It is now a heinous echo-chamber, where lies become the truth by being repeated over & over.

                by Saxman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:39:44 PM PDT

          •  Well, take a look at the rec list for Ex. A.

            Obama supporters both extol their candidate as someone no human being could be and refuse to accept any information that is bad for their candidate. All of their posting on the Florida results is no more than a variation of the "it's good news if you're Republican" meme we've seen out of the MSM over the past several years.

            None of us who are Clinton or Edwards (me, for one) supporters do this with our candidates. We are too aware of strengths weaknesses, and prospects. Hillary's supporters generally emphasize her overall commitment to Democratic Party principles (her unwise votes in the Senate notwithstanding: very few Democrats in the Senate have anything like the reputation they should have save Feingold - which is why I donate to Progressive Patriots Fund - and that's a burden they will have to shed. On that scoreboard, Obama's no better than Clinton.

            I like Edwards for his platform, although his own history for progressive values is not perfect. He has a better, more concrete, vision for America. Does he have a chance to get the nomination? Probably only in a brokered convention, so one never knows.

            I don't know any significant number of supporters of any other candidate in the Democratic primary who will not support the nominee except for the Obama supporters. That's the problem one gets when one reads into a human being more than is humanly possible. That is what I really fear voters will take away from the Obama candidacy.

            My two-cents worth.

            by Superskepticalman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:16:07 AM PDT

            •  superskeptic

              According to the poll on the front page (with something like 5000 votes tallied), Obama supporters here evidently outnumber Clinton supporters 7 to 1.  So I think it is quite possible that, in spite of all the crap and airhead-seeming adulation you see from Obama people, there's still roughly the same percentage of this kind of thing among Obama supporters and Hillary supporters.  Well, I guess that's kind of academic.  I agree that tons of the Obama stuff seem pretty light, but could you look at it in a good light:  it's in part because a lot of people have been so tired of politics the past 8 or 16 years and the "hope" thing, however hollow it may seem intellectually, at least is an energizing kind of meme.  People just feel better and more optimistic, and that carries over into a lot of hooplah.

              There are still a lot of Obama people who look at Obama critically.  I personally don't think highly of his healthcare plan (he won't go the whole hog and propose single-payer), and I'm not crazy about his record in his brief 3 years in the US Senate (though I am impressed by all the energy he showed in 8 yrs in the Illinois legislature).  And, just to take another example that comes to mind, I've come across many Obama people who at least acknowledge he looks pretty bad in the debates.

              Some of the Hillary supporters can be pretty extreme too.  Like, when Hillary talked of her "35 years of experience working for change", I'd have thought most people would just take that as, well, quite a bit of exaggeration, but when people suggested as much to certain Hillary supporters, the response was simply along the lines of, "So? Does Obama have ANY experience?"  Maybe there's a disproportionate level of giddiness on the Obama sid.... but there's a lot of close-mindedness on both sides.

              Also, I see there's a lot of Obama supporters who come out and say they won't vote for Hillary under any circumstances, but things'll calm down if Hillary takes it.  Ya know, I think a lot of it, and I'll confess on my part too, derives from a longstanding prejudice against Hillary, going back to the first Bill presidency.  A lot of the attitude isn't so much idolization of Obama, as unease with Hillary.

              Course I agree that people shouldn't expect too much of human-all-too-human Barack Obama.  But it really bugs me when other supporters use the term "messiah"  about how Obama supporters perceive him.  It's excitement about a candidate--probably a lot of people perceived candidates like Kennedy, and Reagan, and Bill too at some point, the same way.

              by TomY on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:32:47 AM PDT

      •  I think Hillary supporters...

        see their candidate with the positives that she has and weighing that over the her negatives and comparing that to Barack's positives and negatives and seeing who is:

        Most electable
        Most able to execute on Democratic agenda

        My mom for example(age 70) is voting for Hillary partially because she is afraid that some racist nut will assinate Barack Obama if he is nominated because she remembers the RFK assination after he won the CA primary. (I was 4 years old).  Even if he is not assinated (which hopefully would never happen)...she is afraid that in swing states there will be enough people who will not vote for a black person but tell pollsters that they will to swing those states to the Rethugs and lose the election.

        My dad is voting for Barack Obama because he likes his vision and is worried about Hillary's negatives in terms of electability.

        I don't know...I am still trying to decide...

        Peace...Go Democrats!!!

        by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:42:36 AM PDT

•  Again...

  in these types of polls who are the crazy fuckers that vote McCain??? Get out of Dem country, fuckers!

  by joojooluv on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:28:02 AM PDT

  •  This is a reality site...it is good to see

    Just what the percentage of McCain supporters are lurking and posting....and in this unscientific poll it is 8%...not great but it could be worse...according to the anti-Clinton rhetoric I would think it would be 20%...

    Peace...Go Democrats!!!

    by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:58:55 AM PDT

    •  Down to 7% support for McCain...and still voting

      by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:10:17 AM PDT

•  Don't hate the facts

  If the facts bash your candidate, then perhaps you should consider choosing a new candidate.

  Don't blame the messengers.

  by Opinionated Ed on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:06:06 AM PDT

  •  I don't hate the facts...

    and have no problem with diaries and comments around those diaries that call out candidates on policy issues they have taken and or campaign tactics they have used that a Kossack believes is a good reason not to support that candidate.

    Why does almost every diary have to migrate to comments that bashes a candidate even when the diary has nothing to do with that candidate?

    And my main issue is the IMHO unfair bashing of the Bill Clinton presidency not ligitimate policy issues with candidates.

    Peace...Go Democrats!!!

    by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:02:34 AM PDT

  •  Another thought...

    I do not have rose-colored glasses on about Hillary...she has negatives as well as positives...we just have a different rating of the relative value to assign those attributes...and that is fine...I respect your valuation.

    Peace...Go Democrats!!!

    by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:12:08 AM PDT

•  I have to agree to an extent

  I have also been made quite uncomfortable by the vitriol and foulness of the anti-Hillary sentiments.  There have been a few over-the-top hit pieces on the other candidates, which also bothered me, but neither has been the subject of so much  . . . hatred . . . as Clinton.  That bugged me.

  I'm told, however, that calling people foul names, attributing horrible characteristics and motivations, and making bald accusations is "just politics" and it is my problem that I don't like it.

  All it's done is cause me to permanently avoid certain diarists (on more than one side . . . I avoid SusanHu like the plague and consider Geekesque to be Rove Redux), lowered my opinion of progressives/liberals generally, and firmed up my inclination to support women candidates across the board.

  So . . . whatever.  I understand taking a break.  I've seriously thought about doing it myself.

  by prodigal on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:32:18 AM PDT

  •  yeah with you on that

    consider Geekesque to be Rove Redux

    by Osiris on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:12:14 AM PDT

•  According to your current poll results

  About ten percent of the people here are Republicans. Humph.

  by Jim J on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:42:31 AM PDT

  •  Now it is down to 7%...and still voting...

    by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:12:40 AM PDT

•  I am not leaving...just taking a vacation...

  It is not just negativity towards the Clintons...agreed...but it always seems to start there in the comments no matter what the diary it breaks down into this.

  I will never leave DKos for this very important reason...this is my blogasphere home...it represents me... so until Kos changes the following:

  This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog. It's a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory. And since we haven't gotten any of that from the current crew, we're one more thing: a reform blog. The battle for the party is not an ideological battle. It's one between establishment and anti-establishment factions. And as I've said a million times, the status quo is untenable

  This is me...I am not a monolithic progressive, I have views that are progressive, moderate and even a few that would be considered conservative...If I added up a 100 issues the breakdown would probably be:

  50% Progressive
  40% Moderate
  10% Conservative

  I like the fact that we support candidates from Left to Right in the Democratic party...There are many Progressive/Left blogs and there progressives can stay in their echo chamber...here we debate the issues and then support Democrats.

  I have been a lifelong Democrat in a 2:1 Republican:Democratic congressional district/county but in a blue state (NJ).  So I have been supporting and voting for losers for a long time.

  I have no problem debating politics...I just cannot spend anymore energy on this right now in my life...I need to focus on my business and family for a while rather than being caught up in the candidate wars...we all have our views and I respect each and every one of your views...

  So I will be back in a while

  Thanks for the participation in the poll...that is a very positive and heartening result...

  Peace and Go Democrats!!!

  by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:07:46 AM PDT

•  I understand the heated debates

  about which candidate is better because of one reason or the other. What I have big difficulties with are the threats (promises) to vote for a non-Dem or vote for no one if their candidate fails. Some family struggling to make ends meet -- needing S-Chip or a bigger minimum wage, or help with tuition -- which party helps them the most? If your struggling with that question, why are you here.

  I have problems with the Clintons, too. But name a family that has endured more unwarranted attacks.

  by LI Mike on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:13:55 AM PDT

•  When all sanity leaves here...can you imagine...

  how horrible it will be to read the tripe that is left?

  by ShaShaMae on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:39:29 AM PDT

  •  There are still plenty of great Kossacks...

    I am at heart an optimist...we will work it out.

    Peace...Go Democrats!!!

    by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:03:49 AM PDT

•  Since before '92, and now from w/in her own party

  HRC has had to deal with the bashing.  I don't see her either leaving or taking a break; an example to us all or at least, some of us.

  by dcrolg on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:07:09 AM PDT

  •  She is campaigning for POTUS...I have a...

    business to run and family who needs my time...don't worry I will be back...

    Peace...Go Democrats!!!

    by dvogel001 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:14:00 AM PDT

    •  see you then. focus on that family.

      by dcrolg on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:26:31 AM PDT

•  Wise words that unfortunately won't be heeded

  We could lose this thing.  We have to unite around any Democrat who is nominated.

  A question to those of my fellow Obama supporters who say they cannot support or work with or even vote for Clinton:  How can you take such an unbending attitude when the esssence of Obama's campaign is that we have to get beyond partisan divides and work with all Americans in good faith to solve the problems Bush has caused?  If we are expected to work even with Republicans, how can we refuse to work with a fellow Democrat, one who has been in the trenches for some 20 years?  

  by RenMin on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:17:56 AM PDT