Let's stop with the "Hillary won Florida!" comments, please

This will be quick:

There are 4.14 million registered Democrats in FL.  About 40% of them turned out yesterday to vote in a primary that had been ruled months earlier to be moot, meaningless.

So that's a 40% turnout for FL Democrats in what is nationally the most hotly contested Democratic Primary in many decades.  Wow.  Ya think the DNC ruling had anything to do with that?

Flippit.

Hillary was the only Democratic candidate who promised her supporters to actively work to change that ruling.  Here's her position several days prior to the primary:

       

(CNN)

Clinton's campaign has increasingly stressed the importance of the state over the last several days, and on Friday, the New York senator called on her party to reinstate Florida's delegates, as well as those in Michigan who faced similar penalties.

No other candidate promised to buck the DNC ruling for either renegade primary state.  Still, she only managed to garner 50% of the vote in FL - where her supporters were led to believe by her that their votes would actually count...despite her acquiescence to the DNC ruling when it was made months ago.  

No other candidates' supporters received any such encouragement.

This wasn't a win.  

It was a fucking bait and switch.
   

•  Hillary didn't win the FL primary

  FL didn't have a Democratic primary this year because their state party knowingly violated DNC rules.

  by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:08:56 AM PDT

  •  Imagine what

    the turn out would have been if Obama had campaigned in Florida.

    by christine20 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:45:59 AM PDT

    •  Imagine what the turnout would have been

      if it had actually been a sanctioned primary that all the candidates would have participated in.

      FL and MI are the only states where GOP turnout eclipsed Democratic turnout.  Go figure.

      by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:50:28 AM PDT

      •  Imagine if FL was after Feb05

        The race stil in the balance, and the 4th-most populous state has its primary day shared with only a couple otehr states.  That would have been abonaza for FL and proably would have drawn 2.5 to 3 million voters.

        If I were a FL State Democratic PArty official, I'd be job-hunting already.

        by Quicklund on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:30:07 AM PDT

        •  very good point. nt

          by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:46:08 AM PDT

•  Wow, those grapes are really sour

  Tough when your guy doesn't win, isn't it.

  Betting that Feb 5th will be even tougher for you.

  by palpatine316 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:09:20 AM PDT

  •  Can't argue with your devastating logic.

    I take it all back.  How could I have been so blind.

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:14:02 AM PDT

    •  Parade

      Come'on, if you candidate would of won his supporters would have had a parade.

      by neoConned on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:22:30 AM PDT

      •  My candidate could not have won.

        There was no contest.  How hard is that to understand?

        Man, you folks are numb as a pounded hake.

        by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:52:19 AM PDT

        •  There was a contest;

          there just weren't any delegate stakes.  You're as dumb as...warmed over flounder.

          by burrow owl on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:26:21 AM PDT

          •  She promised to work to seat FL's delegates.

            As far as her supporters were concerned, therefore, there was a contest.  But no other "contestants" are willing to "contest" the DNC ruling.

            So, from a Hillary supporter's standpoint (ie, rules don't apply to her), I guess you're "right."  

            Sort of.

            by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:18:30 AM PDT

    •  More dems voted this year than 2004

      How's that logic for you?

      by palpatine316 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:27:08 AM PDT

      •  More rethugs voted this year in FL

        than Dems.

        By the time FL rolled around in '04, Kerry had a lock.   Sewn up.  Done deal.  

        This year is the most hotly contested Democratic primary season since 1960.  Still the FL Dem "primary" drew about 10% (rough estimate) less than the GOP primary that actually meant something.

        How's that logic for you?

        by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:58:03 AM PDT

        •  Only MI and FL have had bigger GOP turnouts

          It ain't Sen Clinton bringing those huge voter turnouts this year.

          by Quicklund on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:33:09 AM PDT

•  I'm not sure what strikes me as more

  interesting..

  The fact that Clinton supporters are touting an event that the rest of the nation is pretty much ignoring...

  Or the fact that your diary gives attention to a non-event.

  by Morgan Sandlin on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:13:57 AM PDT

  •  And the fact that the MSM is ignoring it

    should tell you everything you need to know. But in fact you side with the media to support your candidate.

    by Owllwoman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:17:27 AM PDT

  •  I am responding to Hillary herself

    and to her supporters on this site who claim she had a magnificent victory yesterday.

    I am responding to spin, which, yes, is by definition, a non-event.

    Maybe you think we should just let her and her shills tout her magnificent "victory" without countering the bullshit.  Sounds like the DLC strategy for dealing with neocons, now that I think about it.

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:18:32 AM PDT

    •  You should be used to the dizziness by now.

      self induced, at that.

      by ichibon on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:24:01 AM PDT

      •  didn't take you long to cop

        my post.

        Four minutes. Not bad.

        by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:44:02 AM PDT

•  Hillary won the Florida primary

  Convincingly. The Florida votes may not count in the primary but her gesture to the Florida voters will be remembered fondly in the GE. In Michigan as well.

  by Psychotronicman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:14:19 AM PDT

  •  Don't you get dizzy?

    Spinning always does that to me.

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:20:04 AM PDT

  •  What will be remembered -

    by the 80% of FL Democrats who either didn't vote because it was a voided election, or who voted for candidates other than Hillary - will be Hillary's attempt at the upcoming national convention to change the rules after the fact.

    That gesture will not generate fond memories except in her own die-hard constituency.

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:27:48 AM PDT

    •  She won't have to...

      ...after she wipes out Obama on Tuesday. Cya there!

      Go Hillary!

      by Psychotronicman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:32:42 AM PDT

      •  My pom-pom is bigger than your pom-pom! nt

        by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:29:02 AM PDT

•  Its seems shallow that you can't give Hillary

  her victory.  She won it and she beat McCain.

  by Owllwoman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:14:48 AM PDT

  •  Is this snark?

    Now it was a general election???  In January?

    Forgive me if I am unable to grok subtle ironies today.  I'm not feeling subtle.

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:21:51 AM PDT

    •  I don't understand you motive

      Clinton supporters are happy about the victory, as they should be.  No one is rubbing other supporters faces in it.  This is unlike Obama supporters.

      If Clinton celebration diaries are such a problem you should avoid them until it dies down.  It's a pro-Clinton diary it will be off the diary list in no time.

      by neoConned on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:25:26 AM PDT

      •  My motivation is that

        we all play by the same rules.  What's so hard to understand about that?  

        The only thing she won yesterday was the opening play of a Machiavellian gambit.

        Her supporters were the only constituency that was given any encouragement that their votes would count for the Democratic nomination.  How can that be considered a "contest" in any sense of the term?

        by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:31:57 AM PDT

        •  She won a majority of votes

          Nailbender, certainly you can argue the significance of the win.  Yep, no delegates were awarded, no argument there.  

          I am a Clinton supporter and I don't consider it anymore than what they are calling a "beauty contest".  Though there has not been a true political contest here over 1.6 million people voted in the Democratic Primary.   That means something.

          We aren't cut off from the world because campaigning didn't happen in this state.  

          "As for playing by the same rules", she did not campaign here.  She came by after the win to say, "Thanks,  I value your vote.  Lets do it again in November".  

          by neoConned on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:40:20 AM PDT

          •  the rules are that the vote was moot.

            She expressed her intention to change that rule after the fact.  That had to have given her supporters incentive to vote whereas other candidates' supporters had no such incentive.

            She didn't come by to say "Let's do it again in Nov," she came by to say "I will work to change the rules in Sept."

            by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:33:35 AM PDT

            •  what she said...

              Clinton showed how much she thinks Florida’s results matter by holding a victory rally in Davie as the polls closed. "I could not come here to ask in person for your votes, but I am here to thank you for your votes today," she said. "This has been a record turnout because Floridians wanted their voices to be heard on the great issues that affect our country and the world. I am thrilled to have had this vote of confidence that you have given me today, and I promise you I will do everything I can to make sure not only are Florida’s Democratic delegates seated, but Florida is in the winning column for the Democrats in 2008."

              http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/...

              She will do "everything she can", which in reality will be very little unless the other candidates agree.  I can't see the DNC making any change that the others do not agree to.

              by neoConned on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:04:17 AM PDT

              •  purchasers of snake-oil

                never believe they are buying snake-oil.  But they still buy it.  And the snake-oil saleslady just moves on.

                Good point.

                by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:10:36 AM PDT

                •  Interesting

                  I guess using your logic Obama's call for unity and coming together could be considered selling snake-oil.  I mean you don't actually think Republicans will simply roll over because Obama calls for it do you?

                  He will try for unity and he will have to get their cooperation to get unity.  

                  I know many think that Obama will have the support of Americans behind him but as many politicians soon find out after an election Americans want their elected leaders to work it out after the election

                  by neoConned on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:16:08 AM PDT

                  •  It all depends on the size of his victory.

                    He won't game the system like the Clinton's, if that's what you're suggesting.

                    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:21:39 AM PDT

                    •  not making that suggestion

                      thanks for the debate it has mostly been civil.  Now its time to get back to work.

                      by neoConned on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:25:35 AM PDT

            •  So did Obama

              from September 2007:

              TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

              http://www2.tbo.com/...

              by skohayes on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:12:05 AM PDT

              •  gotta hand it to you

                you're like a dog on a bone.

                Here is the same reply to the other two basically identical posts you've made in this diary:

                Out of context totally:

                but thanks for the link, which provides the context:

                   

                Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

                   [...]

                   The DNC has threatened to refuse to seat a Florida convention delegation because of the too-early primary, which the Florida Legislature decided on last spring. But if a candidate amasses enough delegates before the primary to ensure the nomination, that candidate would take control of the convention, including the power to seat a delegation.

                He was suggesting that if he had a lock on the nomination going in, he would seat the FL delegates as a gesture.

                Hillary is going to try and get them seated in order to gain delegates before the delegate count, as a tactic.

                Nice try, though.

                by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 07:32:09 PM PDT

•  It's a shallow victory.

  All this gloating is disturbing.  Yech.

  by reef the dog on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:16:03 AM PDT

  •  It's just spin-gloat.

    by bugscuffle on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:16:58 AM PDT

    •  No! Its not spin gloat, but you are too

      involved with your candidate to really see this as an election of the people. All the People.

      by Owllwoman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:20:48 AM PDT

      •  No. It's spin-gloat.

        by bugscuffle on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:21:32 AM PDT

        •  ya mean Sploat?

          by RumsfeldResign on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:55:41 AM PDT

          •  Actually a 'Sploat' is...

            ...what you call that green substance the Obama faithful are going to cough up on Tuesday. Their heads will probably spin aroung 360 too.

            by Psychotronicman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:58:46 AM PDT

•  Stop the Clinton Lies

  There was no Florida primary yesterday.

  by bink on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:17:39 AM PDT

•  Russert just now on Today, saying

  'She never planned to go there (Florida) and then Obama won big in S. Car. and then the Kennedy endorsements......'  And said she received criticism also for going back on her word and promise.

  by dotster on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:18:25 AM PDT

•  Of course it wasn't a win and the media

  isn't spinning it that way.

  by Drdemocrat on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:18:36 AM PDT

  •  Let's hope the continue

    not spinning it that way.

    At some point, we'd like to talk about issues during this primary.

    by MingPicket on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:27:06 AM PDT

  •  That's good.

    She is spinning it that way and that's why I wrote this diary.

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:33:17 AM PDT

•  no nailbender is completely correct

  1 million people voting in Florida is completely irrelevant.

  All those people who still came out to vote even though they weren't getting a delegate don't matter.  

  All the effort of the Democrats in florida to get those people to the polls even though their delegates weren't getting seated was totally irrelevant.

  by kennyc on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:23:47 AM PDT

  •  You need to take reading lessons

    All those people who still came out to vote even though they weren't getting a delegate don't matter.  

    read this again:

    Still, she only managed to garner 50% of the vote in FL - where her supporters were led to believe by her that their votes would actually count.

    You totally missed the gist, or swerved to miss it.

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:37:09 AM PDT

    •  I wonder how the Obama...

      ...supporters will spin his losses on Super Tuesday?

      Florida was a big win for Hillary. Our top Dem got more votes than the top Rethug. Another chink in the neocon armour.

      by Psychotronicman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:39:58 AM PDT

      •  ok

        everyone in florida i am sure knew the dnc drama.  Apparently Obamazoids caught up in the second coming of the messiah think (funny word) the rest of us are a bunch of dolts.

        please she won get over it

        Oh and once again Obama won a state (SC) and not one allegation of voting impropriety.  I am sure there will be Florida stories galore.  

        by kennyc on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:44:20 AM PDT

•  Oh Please

  Only 40 percent turnout?  When 10 percent of Iowa's voters turn out for caucuses, folks around here act like the heavens parted and the Lord spoke.

  Florida was not an official primary, for sure, but 1 million people voted for Hillary -- a huge show of support.

  It matters.

  by absalom2 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:27:47 AM PDT

  •  You apparently don't understand the difference

    between a caucus and a full primary.

    800K Hillary voters were led to believe their votes would count.  Nobody elses voters were so encouraged.

    Of course she got "a huge show of support."  But she and her supporters on this site are spinning it to be a meaningful win.  That's what I'm responding to, not the rigged beauty contest that the 2008 FL non-primary was.

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:42:25 AM PDT

    •  Then you should give Clinton credit ...

      If your argument is that Clinton employed a strategy that won her the state (without breaking the rules) then perhaps her campaign would employ the same superior strategy against the Republicans while the other two Dem candidates would simply roll over and give a state to the Republicans (think Kerry and Ohio, Gore and Florida)

      I don't buy your argument but just building upon it.

      by neoConned on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:37:32 AM PDT

•  Worried, huh?

  by Jim J on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:33:18 AM PDT

  •  I've been worried since Bill was elected in 92

    And my concerns have been borne out in ways that would have horrified me back then if I had known how desperately conniving the Clintons are and how perfectly their ruthless gamesmanship plays into the neocon master plan.

    But thanks for pointing that out.

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:48:26 AM PDT

    •  So go back to Rethug land and cuddle with Daddy-

      Bush and Barbara.  I'm sure "its working out well for" you.

      by chrismorgan on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:31:12 AM PDT

•  Idiocy

  There is a difference between the existence of a primary and whether the delegates will be seated.  There WAS a primary yesterday, and Hillary won it walking away.  As for the argument that "only" 40% of all registered Democrats turned out, well, WHAT THE FUCK?!?!!!??  That's a higher turnout that the '04 primary.  40% in a primary is big.  In a primary that will assign no delegates, it's freakin' HUGE.

  by dhonig on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:39:02 AM PDT

  •  How about it was an *unconstested* primary?

    Kind of like when the Terminator won in California, Clinton won on name recognition alone.

    Take a look at this ballot, and tell me if you think Schwarzenager may have won on name recognition alone: http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    Yes? You really think that state was informed about all of those candidates, or could it have been that a well-known and generally likable fellow near the top of the ballot was elected simply on name recognition alone?

    In Florida, there was NO CONTEST for voters' hearts and minds. We had no debate in Florida. We had no campaign stops. No TV ads. NO ROAD-SIDE SIGNS. What do these campaigns spend millions of dollars for on that shit, if it doesn't matter in a legitimate election? The simple matter is, most voters in Florida were still unfamiliar with the candidates. Of course everybody knows Clinton, she was the first lady for eight years. How could she not win?

    Oh, and here are a couple of sample ballots. Clinton was the second name listed in every county in Florida; Obama was second to last.

    
    

    The only thing yesterday's election proved is who has the best hope of winning when the electorate is least informed of the candidates.

    by Mardish on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:02:11 AM PDT

    •  Florida voters aren't stupid

      and if you think Clinton has less name recognition than Obama by now, well, you are just making up excuses for the ass-kicking.  Obama has dominated the news cycles for two months now.

      by dhonig on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:05:18 AM PDT

      •  How ridiculous

        She didn't kick anybody's ass.  She promised her supporters that she would work to reverse the DNC ruling.  No other candidate's supporters were so encouraged, and that is about the sum total of what passed for "campaigning" in this bogus "primary."

        by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:08:23 AM PDT

        •  Bull

          a ton of the votes came in early voting, before HRC said anything.  Additionally, Obama was the only one to break the pledge by holding a press conference in Florida or to advertise in Florida.  In addition to that, at that press conference he promised to "do right by" Florida voters, effectively the same promise to reverse the DNC ruling.  Sorry, but attempts to spin this as anything but an ass-kicking, relevant or not, are just comical.

          by dhonig on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:12:29 AM PDT

          •  So now "do right" means

            overturn Party rulings?

            Psychic!

            by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:15:10 AM PDT

            •  Not spamming this comment

              but it seems appropriate here:

              TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

              This was September 30, 2007, by the way.

              by skohayes on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:16:24 AM PDT

              •  not spamming? This is the fourth identical

                rebuttal I'm making to the fourth identical comment of yours.

                Time to get a dictionary and look up "spamming."

                I won't bother to cut and paste this one.  Here's a linkto one of the other three rebuttals which you haven't chosen to respond to.

                by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 07:35:20 PM PDT

•  Hillary won the thing

  OK...it's not a primary..it's a thing

  we can't call gay marriage a marriage...it's a civil union

  Hillary won the vote-thing

  we can't call the florida vote a primary, but it's not a grapefruit...it's not a cabbage....it was a vote

  people didn't go out and dance on cars and scream like a chicken..they went out and voted

  she won the vote-that-doesn't-count

  I really really really want Obama to win...but let's be honest and call a spade a spade:

  she still had a victory

  we can quibble about how much or how little it means...but it's still a win

  by RumsfeldResign on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:41:13 AM PDT

  •  Don't insult the members of this community

    By comparing gay commitments to this bait and switch operation that we are being subjected to.

    What a load of crap.

    The only thing she "won" was a stacked-deck game of three-card monty.

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:45:24 AM PDT

    •  hey nail bender

      where are all the troops?  I can't believe it.  A diary on Kos where God's children, sorry I mean Obama supporters are getting their asses kicked.

      by kennyc on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:50:58 AM PDT

      •  God's Children! Lol

        You win best slam of the day kennyc. Thanks for putting what I was thinking perfectly.

        by Psychotronicman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:55:38 AM PDT

      •  no worries, kenny.

        I can handle this crowd myself.  Posts like yours refute themselves.

        by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:46:33 AM PDT

    •  please don't insult me either

      I did no such thing

      I simply used an example of what I consider a situation where people don't like to call something by it's name

      Perhaps my knowledge of our system is incomplete, but I have no interest in insulting anyone...you should treat others the same way

      by RumsfeldResign on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:51:51 AM PDT

      •  maybe you need to choose you words

        more carefully.

        Calling gay marriage a "thing" and comparing it to a divisive political situation that is fraught with underhanded machinations doesn't sit well with me.

        by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:03:37 AM PDT

        •  I didn't

          I didn't call gay marriage a "thing"

          I am 100,000% for gay marriage

          anyway, I'm sorry you're upset...but whatever you thought I meant wasn't what I meant

          by RumsfeldResign on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:10:28 AM PDT

          •  no worries

            heat of the battle.

            by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:16:09 AM PDT

            •  no fighting in the war blog!

              by RumsfeldResign on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:00:17 AM PDT

        •  It was satirical....duh

          by Osiris on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:55:37 AM PDT

•  I'd like to congratulate Senator Clinton.

  Both of our candidates worked quite hard in this state in the the weeks leading up to this decisive election, but Barack was outplayed time and again and these results were frankly inevitable, looking back. One can only hope Obama still has the motivation to turn his campaign around after this crushing defeat, but things are really starting to look grim.

  All snark aside, Clinton celebrating her "win" last night was idiotic, and we're pretty much watching a sinking ship in slow motion. Who celebrates an uncontested victory, unless they have nothing left to celebrate?

  I don't mind Clinton playing divisive politics, because each person turned off by Clinton's antics is just another Obama supporter waiting to be scooped up when they next hear him speak.

  by Mardish on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:41:50 AM PDT

  •  It makes complete sense

    over 800,000 people voted for her.  The least she could do is show up and say thank you.  Which she did, it will be remembered in November.

    by neoConned on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:17:35 AM PDT

    •  She will be remembered

      as a grandstanding game-player, not a stateswoman (and that's from a former loyal Clinton operative and someone who calls her one of his "political heroes").

      by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:50:59 AM PDT

•  Hillary did win the Florida primary

  but don't worry, she'll have plenty more wins next week so you will not have to think about this one much longer.

  by markusd on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:48:55 AM PDT

  •  "You haven't seen the last of me, Super Friends!"

    "Just you wait, just wait until next week, when my plans finally reach fruition!"

    by jabbausaf on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:20:49 AM PDT

  •  Your definition of "win"

    Must include Bush's "win" in FL '00.

    A rigged win isn't a win.  She rigged it by promising before the vote to work to overturn the DNC ruling to void the primary.

    Only her voters thought their votes would count.  If that's a win, we have lost before we even have a candidate.

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:26:37 AM PDT

•  Obama supporters claimed a great victory...

  ...when one person, Edward Kennedy, endorsed their candidate.  I don't think there is any decent reason to object to the other side claiming victory when they get over 500k votes in a primary.

  By the way, it's true that the FL primary produces no delegates--but it is a primary.  A primary that produces no delegates might be derided as a mere straw poll, but if you got 500k votes in a straw pole, amply more than your opponents, you'd celebrate too.

  by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:06:12 AM PDT

  •  call it a straw poll if you like

    but a rigged one.  My point is that only Hillary's supporters were given any hope that their votes would count when she tries to overturn the DNC rule at the convention.

    Of course she had more votes than the others.  But only 50%?

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:11:40 AM PDT

    •  More than 50% voted against Obama n/t

      by Psychotronicman on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:16:15 AM PDT

      •  More than 50% voted against Clinton

        And she campaigned there and was sucking up to them.

        by jabbausaf on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:19:57 AM PDT

        •  Where do you get you info?

          She campaigned here?   Where?

          by neoConned on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:20:32 AM PDT

          •  Taking the old adage

            Of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" a bit literally aren't we?

            But hey, for the news you've been ignoring:

            http://apnews.myway.com/...

            SARASOTA, Fla. (AP) - Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton said Sunday she was going to Florida to assure Democrats that "their voices are heard" and to underscore her commitment to seeing the state's delegation seated at the national convention.

            Though the Democratic presidential candidates largely have heeded the national party's request that they not campaign publicly in Florida, Clinton said it's time to pay attention to voters there who are showing heavy interest in Tuesday's primary. Early voting is under way and drawing strong interest, she said.

            "Hundreds of thousands of people have already voted in Florida and I want them to know I will be there to be part of what they have tried to do to make sure their voices are heard," Clinton said in Memphis, Tenn., before heading for Florida.

            http://www.sun-sentinel.com/...

            MIAMI BEACH - A day after losing big in South Carolina, Hillary Clinton jetted into South Florida for a pair of private events Sunday evening, raising money and hopes that her presidential campaign is still on track.

            Clinton was greeted by Miami Mayor Manny Diaz outside the Lucky Strike Lanes, a bowling alley on South Beach, site of the night's first fundraiser.

            "She emphasized having enough turnout [Tuesday] to see that the Florida delegates are seated," said Mike Garretson, deputy superintendent of Broward County Schools. Garretson and his wife, Patricia, were among those who paid $500 each to attend.

            Clinton, who earlier attended a fundraiser in Sarasota, spoke for about 30 minutes at the Lucky Strike before heading to a developer's house for the second fundraiser.

            Clinton and the other Democratic hopefuls pledged not to campaign in Florida after the state's primary was scheduled in January. The party also stripped the state of delegates to the party's convention, but Clinton on Friday issued a statement saying she would urge seating delegates from Florida and Michigan, which also scheduled an early primary.

            by jabbausaf on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:26:31 AM PDT

            •  thanks for the links.

              should have included them in the diary.  Maybe I will.

              Also note that she was touting the early voting of "several hundred thousand voters" who cast their ballots before Bill started race-baiting and Obama smashed her in SC.

              by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:55:34 AM PDT

            •  Fundraisers were allowed

              Perhaps 30 minutes at Lucky Strike (bowling alley?)  tilted the election in her favor.

              There has been accounts of Obama speaking to waiting supporters after a Fundraiser in Florida as well.

              http://www.heraldtribune.com/...

              by neoConned on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:09:40 AM PDT

            •  She never campaigned

              Fundraising was allowed, according to the agreement with the DNC.
              Obama and Edwards were there fundraising as well.

              by skohayes on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:20:16 AM PDT

      •  because they thought their votes would count nt

        by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:20:44 AM PDT

    •  And...

      she isnt' getting any delegates out of the deal so don't take it so hard.

      Btw, McCain won only getting 36%.

      by neoConned on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:19:38 AM PDT

      •  that's not what she says

        she says she will try to overturn the DNC ruling at the convention.  That's the whole fucking point.

        Jesus this is tedious.

        by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:57:08 AM PDT

        •  So did Obama

          I'm not going to requote what I've already posted twice, but Obama also promised to seat Florida delegates.

          by skohayes on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:21:31 AM PDT

          •  maybe you should read your links:

            Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

            [...]

            The DNC has threatened to refuse to seat a Florida convention delegation because of the too-early primary, which the Florida Legislature decided on last spring. But if a candidate amasses enough delegates before the primary to ensure the nomination, that candidate would take control of the convention, including the power to seat a delegation.

            Obama was saying that if he is the "presumptive nominee" (ie, has a lock on it) he will seat the FL delegation as a gesture.

            Hillary intends to do it as a means of obtaining delegates prior to the delegate count, as a tactic.

            by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:30:54 AM PDT

    •  You keep saying that, but

      it makes no sense.  

      My point is that only Hillary's supporters were given any hope that their votes would count when she tries to overturn the DNC rule at the convention.

      Hillary did not say "only my delegates should count."  She said FLORIDA should count.  You keep repeating words that make no sense.

      by dhonig on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:22:29 AM PDT

      •  you really don't get it?

        She held out hope to her constituents that she would make the primary count.  How can that not encourage turnout for her constituents?

        None of the other candidates held out that promise.  What?  You're saying Obama and Edwards supporters would have been encouraged to vote because their opponent promised to overturn the DNC?

        Man, you need to take the blinders off.

        by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:01:57 AM PDT

•  Think about this

  Obama pulled 33%

  in a state he didn't even campaign in.

  That's less then Hillary pulled in Iowa and South Carolina, states she most assuredly was campaigning in.

  That has to hurt.

  by jabbausaf on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:19:05 AM PDT

  •  and in a state where his supporters

    were assured their votes wouldn't count, as opposed to Hillary, whose supporters were assured that she would work to make their votes count.

    by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:22:55 AM PDT

  •  Iowa was a caucus ...

    and they weigh voters in precints differently.  In a primary where every vote counts as one, she won the popular vote in Florida.

    I believe Iowa will not release the figures on popular vote.  I am not sure about this but that is what I heard reported.

    by neoConned on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:24:25 AM PDT

  •  Bull

    (a) Hillary did NOT campaign in Florida
    (b) Obama was the only candidate to run ads in Florida
    (c) Obama actually DID campaign in Florida, breaking the pledge and holding a press conference after a fund raiser.

    So, if we use your reasoning and apply actual reality, Obama only pulled 33% in a State where he was the only person running ads and campaigning, while Hillary got 50% in a state she didn't even campaign in.  That has to hurt.

    by dhonig on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:25:00 AM PDT

    •  Distortioning much?

      (a) She absolutely did, proof below
      (b) He ran national ads which air nation-wide.
      (c) he went across a street and answered 6 questions a day after the pledge went into effect in September of 2007. When he was informed this was against the pledge that had just been signed that previous day, he never went back.

      Big difference between visiting a state and answering a few questions months before the primary, and coming there right after losing SC by a wide margin and begging for votes.

      http://apnews.myway.com/...

      SARASOTA, Fla. (AP) - Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton said Sunday she was going to Florida to assure Democrats that "their voices are heard" and to underscore her commitment to seeing the state's delegation seated at the national convention.

      Though the Democratic presidential candidates largely have heeded the national party's request that they not campaign publicly in Florida, Clinton said it's time to pay attention to voters there who are showing heavy interest in Tuesday's primary. Early voting is under way and drawing strong interest, she said.

      "Hundreds of thousands of people have already voted in Florida and I want them to know I will be there to be part of what they have tried to do to make sure their voices are heard," Clinton said in Memphis, Tenn., before heading for Florida.

      http://www.sun-sentinel.com/...

      MIAMI BEACH - A day after losing big in South Carolina, Hillary Clinton jetted into South Florida for a pair of private events Sunday evening, raising money and hopes that her presidential campaign is still on track.

      Clinton was greeted by Miami Mayor Manny Diaz outside the Lucky Strike Lanes, a bowling alley on South Beach, site of the night's first fundraiser.

      "She emphasized having enough turnout [Tuesday] to see that the Florida delegates are seated," said Mike Garretson, deputy superintendent of Broward County Schools. Garretson and his wife, Patricia, were among those who paid $500 each to attend.

      Clinton, who earlier attended a fundraiser in Sarasota, spoke for about 30 minutes at the Lucky Strike before heading to a developer's house for the second fundraiser.

      Clinton and the other Democratic hopefuls pledged not to campaign in Florida after the state's primary was scheduled in January. The party also stripped the state of delegates to the party's convention, but Clinton on Friday issued a statement saying she would urge seating delegates from Florida and Michigan, which also scheduled an early primary.

      Even if they had, all three of them, been able to campaign in Florida, I would have expected the results to be about what they were. Florida has a large population of older Democrats and transplantees from new York. And it's the older vote that went solidly for Hillary. Everybody expected her, campaigning or not, to take Florida.

      The fact that she won by less in a state with no delegates in a primary election that doesn't count than Obama won by in a state with delegates in a primary election that counted, well, you'd have to be a Clinton to think that's a positive.

      by jabbausaf on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:36:20 AM PDT

      •  Distorting, not distortioning

        I need to proofread my titles. F*ck it, it's early.

        by jabbausaf on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:37:36 AM PDT

      •  Fundraising does not equal campaigning

        All the presidential candidates were fundraising in Florida.

        by skohayes on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:23:23 AM PDT

    •  Double bull

      Hillary's campaign in FL was to promise to overturn the DNC ruling to void that primary.  That got all kinds of media down there.  Her supporters were encouraged to vote on that basis.  No other candidate's supporters had any such encouragement.

      I realize it's confusing when the peanut gets swapped from one shell to another by the carny.  That's why you have to pay closer attention.

      by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:39:04 AM PDT

      •  Your reasoning is ridiculous

        Only Hillary supporters were promised delegates, so they were the only ones that voted?
        LOL.

        According to Sanchez and Tom Scarritt, Obama was asked during the event about making sure Floridians have a role in the nomination, despite the DNC sanctions and the pledge. Scarritt said Obama responded that he'll "do what's right by Florida voters."

        http://www2.tbo.com/...

        by skohayes on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:26:39 AM PDT

        •  out of context totally

          but thanks for the link, which provides the context:

          Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

          [...]

          The DNC has threatened to refuse to seat a Florida convention delegation because of the too-early primary, which the Florida Legislature decided on last spring. But if a candidate amasses enough delegates before the primary to ensure the nomination, that candidate would take control of the convention, including the power to seat a delegation.

          He was suggesting that if he had a lock on the nomination going in, he would seat the FL delegates as a gesture.

          Hillary is going to try and get them seated in order to gain delegates before the delegate count, as a tactic.

          Nice try, though.

          by nailbender on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:38:35 AM PDT