Daily Kos

"Hiding behind civilians"

Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 10:28:11 AM PDT

This being a brief round-up of several recent developments in the Middle East.

Firstly, a respected Israeli NGO published a report into the state's treatment of its Palestinian citizens during last year's Lebanon war. Readers will recall that, back in the summer of 2006, while Israel was busy destroying southern Lebanon killing close to 1,200 Lebanese civilians in the process, one of the main arguments used by its apologists to justify the atrocities was that the civilian deaths were the fault of Hizbullah, not the IDF, because the militia deliberately hid its fighters among the civilian population.

The claim was counter-intuitive, since most Hizbullah fighters were members of the communities they were alleged to be using as human shields. It seemed unlikely that Hizbullah fighters would pursue a strategy that involved making their families and friends into targets for the Israeli Air Force - oh, but of course, them crazy terr'ists will do anything, and probably enjoy it too. In any event, the assertion was investigated thoroughly by Human Rights Watch, who discovered it to be pure invention. After an on-the-ground investigation of 153 civilian deaths, a third of the total at the time, HRW "found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack". It concluded:

"By consistently failing to distinguish between combatants and civilians, Israel has violated one of the most fundamental tenets of the laws of war: the duty to carry out attacks on only military targets. The pattern of attacks during the Israeli offensive in Lebanon suggests that the failures cannot be explained or dismissed as mere accidents; the extent of the pattern and the seriousness of the consequences indicate the commission of war crimes."

Israel's apologists were undeterred, continuing to parrot the "hiding behind civilians" canard as if it hadn't already been exposed as a fraud. So last year, HRW published a second report into the war, which emphasised once again that "Israel’s indiscriminate airstrikes" caused most of the civilian deaths, "not Hezbollah’s shielding as claimed by Israeli officials". Apart from a few exceptions, HRW found that Hizbullah actively ordered its fighters and military equipment away from populated civilian areas as soon as the hostilities began, and thus concluded that "[i]n the vast majority of airstrikes resulting in civilian deaths...there was no Hezbollah military presence or activity to justify the attack."

However, while acknowledging that Israel placed "certain military assets" inside civilian populations, HRW declined to investigate further, in accordance with its by now quite well documented pro-Western bias (a result primarily of successful ideological flak, which has left HRW extremely wary of appearing too hostile towards Israel, or too lenient towards its enemies).

The Israeli press, operating under military censorship, was forbidden from reporting the location of Israeli military sites during the war. Despite this, some allusions were made to Israel's location of military personnel and equipment inside or near to civilian populations. For example, a member of the Kfar Giladi kibbutz recently told Ha'aretz,

"We deserve a medal of honor for our assistance during the war. We opened our hotel to soldiers and asked for no compensation. Moreover, soldiers stayed in the kibbutz throughout the entire war."

Danny Young, a British Jew who moved to Israel to fight in the IDF, recalled how "[w]e were shooting missiles from the foot of this kibbutz" and were "receiving Katyushas" in return. During the conflict, British journalist Jonathan Cook reported that Israel has "hundreds of...military installations next to or inside Israel's northern communities", including, for example, "a large weapons factory virtually on top of an Arab town -- so close to it, in fact, that the factory's perimeter fence is only a few metres from the main building of the local junior school." Due to Israeli censorship laws, however, he was unable to report fully on Israel's "cowardly blending" (to borrow Jan Egeland's unfair accusation against Hizbullah) among civilians.

Fortunately, we now have the Arab Association for Human Rights (HRA) report (.doc) to help clear things up. The organisation found, in a nutshell, that "the Arab towns and villages that suffered the most intensive attacks during the war were ones that were surrounded by military installations, either on a permanent basis or temporarily during the course of the war." Israeli military facilities, both permanent and temporary, were used to fire missiles into Lebanon and were located "at a distance of just 0.5 – 2 kilometers by air from the civilian community" and in some cases actually "inside the town or village." These distances are within the "margin of error" of Hizbullah's katyusha rockets. As well as military equipment, HRA also found that "military exercises" involving live ammunition and explosives took place within Arab communities "before, during and after the war."

In other words, the reason why 30% of Israel's civilian casualties during the war were Arabs living in Arab towns and villages was not because Nasrallah was so crazy and fanatical that he didn't care about attacking other Arabs. This was the impression conveyed by Israeli propaganda and the Western press at the time, but it was contradicted by Nasrallah's own speeches, which apologised for the deaths and even requested that Israeli Palestinians leave Haifa so that Hizbullah could begin attacking it. (Nasrallah's reluctance to harm Israeli Palestinians evidently did not apply to Israeli Jews, but that's another issue). Rather, the evidence suggests that it was at least in part the result of the Israeli government choosing to locate its military facilities and equipment inside and very near to Arab population centres, "a gross violation of international humanitarian law".

It is worth pointing out at this point that the report does not accuse Israel of deliberately using its Palestinian citizens as "human shields" - to level that allegation intent must be proved, and HRA "does not have the necessary tools" to do so. Rather, what the report shows is that Israel in fact placed its Palestinian citizens in greater danger by locating military targets among civilian populations, a violation of international law.

The report also does not seek to evaluate Hassan Nasrallah's claim that Hizbullah primarily aimed its rockets at military and not civilian targets. Rather, it simply demonstrates that Israel not only failed to protect its Palestinian citizens during the war, but actively put them in further danger by illegitimately placing military facilities among them. It also concludes from the evidence that it is likely that Hizbullah's attacks on Arab communities were likely not intended to kill civilians, but rather aimed at the military facilities located either nearby or among them. Finally, the report notes that Israel placed military equipment and personnel among Jewish civilians as well, but, being an NGO dedicated to defending the human rights of Israel's Palestinian minority, it did not investigate this further.

Returning to the report: the HRA's investigation found that, as well as increasing the risk to Israel's Palestinian citizens by deploying military equipment among them, the government of Israel also "failed abjectly in all aspects" relating to their protection. The protection of the home front was poor in all respects, but the report found that the failure was "particularly acute in the case of the Arab communities, which have suffered ongoing and gross neglect with regard to all civilian infrastructures." The government not only failed to request or organise the evacuation of Arab towns and villages, but it actually asked them to remain in their homes to face the rocket attacks. The result was that, with a few exceptions, only the more well-off and well-connected residents were able to leave for safety during the war. The state also "completely failed" to provide its citizens with means of civil defence, such as bomb shelters and warning sirens, and this neglect was again "particularly acute" in Arab communities. Israel's failure to protect its Palestinian citizens during the war is particularly appalling given that a) it "initiated the war", as a recent Ha'aretz editorial points out, and b) it further endangered those civilians by placing military equipment among them.

The investigation concludes with a series of recommendations to bring Israel's wartime treatment of its Palestinian citizens in line with the law. They are unlikely to be implemented, at least if the IDF's response to the report, which labelled it not only a "false representation" and "completely groundless", but also "completely without foundation" and "malign nonsense", is anything to go by.

===========================================

It seems the IDF has returned to its illegal policy of punitive house demolitions:

"But Palestinians said the Israelis also bombed the Gaza City homes of two senior Islamic Jihad commanders whom the Israelis killed in rocket attacks a week ago or more ago.

The homes, of Karim Dahdouh and Muhammad Abdallah Abu Murshad, were bombed from the air and destroyed. At the time, Israel said they were responsible for making rockets and launching hundreds of them at Israel. Mr. Dahdouh was killed Dec. 17; Mr. Murshad was killed a week ago.

The Israelis, like the British during the Mandate, often destroy the homes of prominent enemies, usually by bulldozer in the occupied West Bank. To destroy homes from the air in Gaza, where Israel no longer keeps a permanent military presence, seems to be a new policy, intended to deter other militants by underlining the risk not just to their own lives but to the livelihood of their families."

===========================================

The Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz obtained a 26-page official document signed by Gilad Sher, Photobucketbureau chief to then prime minister Ehud Barak, entitled, "The Status of the Diplomatic Process with the Palestinians Points to Update the Incoming Prime Minister." It provides for the first time an official account of the approximate negotiating positions of each side at the Camp David talks in 2000. Needless to say, it depicts an Israeli offer that was far from "generous".

Israel demanded the annexation of 8% of the West Bank, and the creation of an Israeli "security zone" along the Jordan Valley. The Palestinians objected, although they were willing to compromise, demanding a 1:1 land-swap involving no more than 2.3% of the West Bank. Israel demanded territorial contiguity for Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem, which would have severed East Jerusalem from the West Bank and confined Palestinians living in East Jerusalem to "bubbles". The Palestinians were willing to cede to Israel the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem. Israel demanded that the Palestinian "state" be demilitarised, that the IDF have the right to "emergency deployment" in the Jordan Valley and that the Palestinians would have no control over their air space. In all, then, the Palestinians were being offered a "state" consisting of a few ghettoes comprising roughly 14% of historical Palestine. To see what such a "state" would have looked like we need only examine the situation on the ground today (see map, pictured), for since Arafat refused to give his consent to the bantustan solution, Israel has moved to implement it unilaterally, through force.

See Jonathan Cook's article on the topic here.

===========================================

Israeli and Palestinian negotiators, led by Foreign Minister Tzipi Livny and former Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia, are to form a panel to discuss the "core issues" of the conflict.

Meanwhile...

"The Housing Ministry is pushing forward with the construction of more than 1,000 residential units in East Jerusalem's Har Homa neighborhood on land held by "absentee" Palestinians from the Bethlehem area. The move is in violation of both an instruction from the attorney general to stop applying the absentee law in East Jerusalem and explicit promises to the U.S. not to apply that law in the capital's eastern quarters."

...and Ehud Olmert has appealed to President Bush to ensure that Israel's "security interests" will be safeguarded in any future agreement. That will apparently involve ensuring that a Palestinian "state" would remain fully demilitarised, without full control of its air space, with a permanent IDF presence in the Jordan Valley and an arrangement whereby Israeli forces would be allowed to deploy in the West Bank without the permission of the Palestinian Authority.

Does no one see the contradiction here?

===========================================

Photobucket Finally, a Palestinian cancer patient died on Saturday after the IDF prevented her from leaving Gaza for treatment:

"[Palestinian medical] sources said that Aisha Al Jamal, 73, had lung cancer but the army refused to allow her to leave the Coastal Region to get treatment in Israel or the West Bank.

Another Palestinian cancer patient, Mohamed Abu Taha, 45, died late on Friday night; he also was not allowed by the Israeli army to leave the Gaza Strip. The Israeli army has imposed a total siege on the Gaza Strip since June 2007, leaving the 1.5 million Palestinians living under severe conditions.

Al Jamal is the 63rd person who has died of a chronic illness since Israel placed the Gaza Strip under total siege. Among those 63 were children, the youngest was Doua Habib, who was five months old."

The Israeli siege on Gaza continues, as does construction in the settlements (.pdf). Palestinians across Gaza will have their electricity cut for eight hours every day from today due to shortages caused by Israeli-imposed restrictions on fuel imports to Gaza. The whole "debate" over whether reducing the amount of electricity supplied to Gaza constituted illegitimate collective punishment was evidently purely an academic one.

Cross-posted at The Heathlander

Tags: Israel, Lebanon, war, human rights, Palestine, Gaza (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 314 comments

  •  And what do the candidates say about this matter? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rusty Pipes, Piggy Podges

    waiting......

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 10:44:07 AM PDT

  •  What is this? (5+ / 0-)

    "Israel is bad greatest hits of the week"? "Hey let's have a flamewar"?

    Still all about electing Democrats.

    by MBNYC on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 10:46:32 AM PDT

    •  Nah, it's called (4+ / 0-)

      "reality". If you don't want to read about it, don't. If you don't want a "flamewar", then stop making pointless comments.

      •  Sorry (4+ / 0-)

        I think we're seeing upthread where this is leading. If all you can do here is throw out the one-sided propaganda, there will be pushback.

        Nw let me deal with that other person, BRB.

        Still all about electing Democrats.

        by MBNYC on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 10:54:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There's nothing wrong with pushback. (0+ / 0-)

          There is, however, something wrong with flippant, unsubstantive, disruptive comments (like yours above) or with comments that talk about shooting the diarist in the head.

          Surely Israel must have some more articulate and reasonable defenders than this bunch?

        •  well, thanks for TR'ing (7+ / 0-)

          the comment above, but it's ridiculously unfair to blame me for it. As for "one-sided propaganda"...i hardly think it's that. There's important information, like the continuing construction in the settlements and like the  confirmation that Israel "hid behind civilians" during the Lebanon war, that I thought was worth conveying to folks here, who, after all, are participants in the conflict.

          •  I'm not blaming you for the troll (8+ / 0-)

            God forbid. Nobody deserves that.

            What I am saying is that your blatantly negative and one-sided depiction of Israel=bad greatest hits is going to get vigorously critiqued.

            Still all about electing Democrats.

            by MBNYC on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:02:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree. (4+ / 0-)

              Good debating has two sides of the coin.

              Sic Transit Gloria Locavore!

              by Asinus Asinum Fricat on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:03:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I do think that we get quite alot of the other (1+ / 1-)

                Recommended by:
                Piggy Podges
                Hidden by:
                dfb1968

                side from the MSM.  So much so that one would be lead to believe that Palestinians in general are mad, foaming from the mouth nutcases.  In some cases, they have legitimate beefs, as do the Lebanese.  Isrealis need to accept a little responsibility for their "superior right to be here"(and here and there and here oh and over here, too) attitude.

                I wish that violence wasn't the first solution used, but the current use of "you slap me, I shoot you, you bomb me, I bulldoze you" diplomacy is so not working.

                If we want peace, why do we give weapons and call it "aid"?

                by gdwtch52 on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:24:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  TR abuse from dfb1968 (0+ / 0-)

                  as per usual.

                  •  This appears to be no more than a crude comment, (0+ / 0-)

                    and a poor choice for a TR.  However, I do not find dfb to make this a "usual" practice, certainly compared to some others here.

                    "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

                    by Eric S on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:12:08 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  He does it often (0+ / 0-)

                      e.g. in one of my recent diaries he TR'd the Tip Jar, just out of the blue, refusing to even justify it. What a big man.

                      •  "in one of" is not often. (0+ / 0-)

                        Do you really need to argue this out when I am attempting to concur?  Should I list the far worse offenders for you... never mind.

                        "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

                        by Eric S on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 12:44:54 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well, I'm not going to bother (0+ / 0-)

                          spending ages trying to back up something so unimportant. But over the months I've noticed him do it repeatedly, which is why this latest one is no surprise. (I'm pretty sure also that he waited until the diary was dead before dropping the TR, which says a lot about his intellectual integrity).

                          Anyway.

                          •  For the record - you are wrong. Please note, (0+ / 0-)

                            from dbf's ratings history:

                            1. I do think that we get quite alot of the other [2.00], by gdwtch52, Rated: 0

                            Posted on 01/06/2008 11:24:28 PST
                            Rated on 01/06/2008 14:27:08 PST

                            Rated three hours after the comment was made.  Looking it up took 25 seconds.

                            What do untoward and unsupported/unsupportable assertions about the "intellectual integrity" of others say about....

                            "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

                            by Eric S on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 01:43:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  Fine, then why don't you vigorously critique (0+ / 0-)

              it, instead of posting inane comments like ""Israel is bad greatest hits of the week"? "Hey let's have a flamewar"?"

              Why can't we have a reasonable discussion of these issues?

              •  Once again (5+ / 0-)

                I get the distinct feeling that you're far more familiar with the DKos I/P debate than your UID would suggest.

                Still all about electing Democrats.

                by MBNYC on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:06:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm a quick study (0+ / 0-)

                  But I'm not sure how exactly I am demonstrating my familiarity with the Daily Kos I/P debate, by noticing what you and Cecrops Tanagroa are up to. It's apparent to anyone, whatever their UID, that you are posting flippant comments here (and that CT is posting implied threats), rather than reasoned comments that address the substance of the diary, in an attempt to suppress discussion of the issues raised by the diary.

                  Israel clearly needs better advocates in this debate.

                  •  Oh boy (5+ / 0-)

                    the "quick study" line of explanation.

                    Not buying it.

                    Still all about electing Democrats.

                    by MBNYC on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:14:12 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I wondered (6+ / 0-)

                      John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

                      by taylormattd on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:24:21 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Hmmm. (3+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        musing85, Bouwerie Boy, leonard145b

                        Waddaya think, stupidasshole again?

                        Still all about electing Democrats.

                        by MBNYC on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:26:37 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I have (6+ / 0-)

                          no idea. But I doubt it.

                          John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

                          by taylormattd on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:30:27 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Well (3+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            taylormattd, Bouwerie Boy, sofia

                            this one has been all over me specifically, with the usual 'why aren't you talking about blah blah blah'; that's one of SA's pet concerns, at least from the last time I searched for my UID on PFF.

                            You should do that occasionally, it's awesome.

                            Still all about electing Democrats.

                            by MBNYC on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:34:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What immediately.. (3+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            taylormattd, Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

                            ..struck me as odd was her/his first commentwas in dhonig's 5 day old diary.

                            •  yeah (2+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              sofia, MBNYC

                              it's funny because the person's first comment was to me four days after I wrote mine.

                              I actually had gone over to MLW and posted several comments in curmudgiana's diary after reading dhonig's.

                              John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

                              by taylormattd on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 12:05:42 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  I didn't even notice.. (4+ / 0-)

                                Recommended by:
                                taylormattd, MBNYC, Eric S, Piggy Podges

                                ..that her/his comment was attached to yours -- it's just highly unusual for a new user to post its first comment in a five day old diary. How would a new user even find it unless she/he read about it at MLW or Pff.  The fact that the first comment was there also makes it appear what prompted the person to register was dhonig's diary.  That leads me to suspect this is someone who has been involved in the I/P debates here and/or at MLW.

                                I really don't think just lurking gives one the kind of familiarity this user displays with the site -- participation does.

                              •  Not sure why I can't comment in (0+ / 0-)

                                an old diary. It was clearly still alive: someone responded to my comment.

                                So I guess when you were saying that you knew me from somewhere, you were speculating that I'm some other user's sockpuppet, not wondering whether you knew me in real life. Well, thanks for clearing that up. I'd been pretty intrigued as to who you were.

                                •  fine (2+ / 0-)

                                  Recommended by:
                                  sofia, MBNYC

                                  explain how you came to comment in a 5 day old diary.

                                  John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

                                  by taylormattd on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 12:43:51 PM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

                                  •  I guess I was reading it before I joined (0+ / 0-)

                                    and felt moved to comment. Frankly, the fact that I commented in an old diary would seem to show that I'm not very familiar with the workings of the site, wouldn't it? I don't see how it shows that I'm some other user's sockpuppet.

                                    Look, I'm sure this site gets its fair share of Republican trolls and sockpuppeteers, looking to cause trouble. But you can't therefore assume that every new user is a sockpuppet.

                                    •  I don't really (2+ / 0-)

                                      Recommended by:
                                      sofia, MBNYC

                                      care. But you don't have to make things up, you know. What I was asking was how did you find the diary?

                                      John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

                                      by taylormattd on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:06:48 PM PDT

                                      [ Parent ]

                                      •  Let's not be too quick to jump to conclusions. (1+ / 0-)

                                        Recommended by:
                                        Piggy Podges

                                        I see no real reason to suggest that Piggy Podges is a sockpuppet.

                                        I wonder, tho, where shergald is now?

                                        MLW lost people from both sides of I/P.  Me, dhonig, Paul, Kane, independentminded, but also Miss M and shergald.

                                        "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                                        by Karmafish on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:14:12 PM PDT

                                        [ Parent ]

                                        •  how do you (2+ / 0-)

                                          Recommended by:
                                          Karmafish, sofia

                                          think the user came across dhoning's diary?

                                          John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

                                          by taylormattd on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:42:44 PM PDT

                                          [ Parent ]

                                          •  I have not the slightest idea! LOL. (3+ / 0-)

                                            Recommended by:
                                            taylormattd, sofia, Piggy Podges

                                            But it's still a leap to conclusion.

                                            I don't know.  I guess I just generally favor giving people the benefit of the doubt... until there is no longer any doubt.

                                            I'll tell you this, tho, I am just relieved to be free from the intense acrimony and vitriol that I faced on MLW.

                                            I'm sad about what happened there, but I'm happy as hell to be free from the likes of Gilroy, ed_encho, imhotep, proximity1, and a number of other toxic individuals.

                                            "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                                            by Karmafish on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:55:18 PM PDT

                                            [ Parent ]

                                        •  Wait (1+ / 0-)

                                          Recommended by:
                                          Karmafish

                                          Shergald's off MLW? That's a huge surprise. Do you know why?

                                          Still all about electing Democrats.

                                          by MBNYC on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 04:00:57 PM PDT

                                          [ Parent ]

                                          •  Yeah. What he said was that he didn't feel (1+ / 0-)

                                            Recommended by:
                                            MBNYC

                                            that he could act as an advocate for the Palestinian people in a place where anti-Semitism was acceptable.

                                            I'm paraphrasing, but that was it essentially.

                                            Are you shocked?

                                            ;O)

                                            "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                                            by Karmafish on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 05:34:34 PM PDT

                                            [ Parent ]

                                            •  I'm honestly not sure. (1+ / 0-)

                                              Recommended by:
                                              Karmafish

                                              But I'll think about it; that's certainly news.

                                              Still all about electing Democrats.

                                              by MBNYC on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 06:16:28 PM PDT

                                              [ Parent ]

                                            •  Hold on a second... (0+ / 0-)

                                              You are referencing Shergald saying the following in his/her "parting" statement on MLW:

                                              But in the mist of discussion, we have also had notions expressed such as "Christ killers," that "Jews were partially responsible for the Holocaust" which went beyond the pale, MM's diary a few days ago, and subsequent remarks equating the Star of David and the Swastika.

                                              [snip]

                                              IP may not be dead on MLW, but I can't be part of it until the environment is cleaned up. Recently, I had to ask one of those involved to please not comment on my essays, and was called an "asshole" in return. It has gone too far.

                                              And directly below we have Piggy saying about his/her contribution to MLW or DKos or whatever:

                                              I... got pissed off that clearly antisemitic content seemed to be being defended or at least tolerated by the owner of that site. So when I read your comment defending the owner of MLW, I posted my comment saying that I don't think that people who tolerate antisemitism in their blogs should be considered "nice people" (or however you characterized her). I just don't see why this is such a big deal.

                                              I couldn't find taylormattd's defense of the owner of MLW anywhere, but this would seem to be a reference to Shergald's comment above, and a rather clear concession of his/her latest sockpuppetry... unless I am missing something.

                                              The small irony in Shergald's parting statement, is that he/she is concerned that the anti-Semitism has gone "too far," when he/she has unquestionably encouraged it by his/her strident posture, if not practiced it his/her self.

                                              And I don't believe for a moment Shergald's supposed reason for leaving MLW, where he/she has been outed as a liar... and beyond.

                                              Time to lay low Shergald.

                                              "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park." - Jim Moran

                                              by Eric S on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 07:07:44 PM PDT

                                              [ Parent ]

                                      •  You really want to know? (0+ / 0-)

                                        I found it on the front page of Daily Kos when it was first posted, and kept reading its threads for the next couple of days (it was still generating discussion long after it fell of the front page). I followed it over to MLW and found the original, and got pissed off that clearly antisemitic content seemed to be being defended or at least tolerated by the owner of that site. So when I read your comment defending the owner of MLW, I posted my comment saying that I don't think that people who tolerate antisemitism in their blogs should be considered "nice people" (or however you characterized her). I just don't see why this is such a big deal.

                  •  Quite astute (1+ / 0-)

                    it is blatantly obvious in technique and style.  I hope they don't dellude themselves into thinking they are subtle.

                    Ca we get back to the differences in the candidates on the way forward in ME policy?

                    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                    by Eiron on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:16:46 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Vigorous critique is fine, obviously (5+ / 0-)

              and I accept that the diary above conveys a "negative" attitude towards Israeli policies. Then again, I think it's unreasonable to expect me to be "positive" about war crimes.

              As for 'one-sided' - well, the point was simply to convey several important developments that I thought people here should know about. So, unless you elaborate further, I can't really do anything with that charge.

              •  To not acknowledge using human shields is (0+ / 0-)

                rampant on the other side says you are an advocate, not an observer.

                If the purpose of the dairy is to oppose the use of human shields, you'd be opposed to it's use regardless of who uses it.

                If you feel you must become like your enemies to beat them, they've already defeated you (-7.00/-5.33)

                by DoubleBarrellBunnyAnger on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 12:09:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well firstly, (3+ / 0-)

                  I'm explicitly not talking about "human shields" here. Secondly, the issue of the use of "human shields" by Hizbullah was addressed in the diary (in short, they didn't do it).

                  To not realise this means you are a commenter, not a reader.

                  •  At this point it's years old common knowledge (0+ / 0-)

                    That one report doesn't mean the Intefada never happened. It doesn't mean rockets were never fired into Israel from civilian positions in Lebanon.

                    If you feel you must become like your enemies to beat them, they've already defeated you (-7.00/-5.33)

                    by DoubleBarrellBunnyAnger on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 12:37:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, we're talking about Lebanon here (3+ / 0-)

                      so let's stick with that. Again, if we want to have a rational discussion then it has to be based on the facts. Human Rights Watch investigated the facts extensively and found that, barring a few exceptions, Hizbullah did not operate from within civilian populations. Thems the facts, I'm afraid.

                      •  That won't happen (0+ / 0-)

                        There is no rational discussion with an advocate here to promote one sides agenda.

                        Selective use of facts only undermines your cause.

                        If you feel you must become like your enemies to beat them, they've already defeated you (-7.00/-5.33)

                        by DoubleBarrellBunnyAnger on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 12:45:22 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                          •  Claiming Hezbullah has never used human shields. (0+ / 0-)

                            My veiw on the whole situation:
                            Hezbullah lays down their guns, no war
                            Israel lays down their guns, no Israel.

                            Bottom line they can either live together or they will die together.

                            If you feel you must become like your enemies to beat them, they've already defeated you (-7.00/-5.33)

                            by DoubleBarrellBunnyAnger on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 12:54:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  This is my last I/P BTW (2+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              SeattleLiberal, Karmafish

                              I should know better

                              If you feel you must become like your enemies to beat them, they've already defeated you (-7.00/-5.33)

                              by DoubleBarrellBunnyAnger on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 12:56:06 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  It's a battle zone that never eases. (1+ / 0-)

                                Recommended by:
                                Piggy Podges

                                I suddenly feel like I've transported back in time to a year ago when I would occasionally drop into I/P diaries.

                                In fact, at this point I'm just happy that dKos still even has I/P diaries.

                                "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                                by Karmafish on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:16:33 PM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                                •  To me, (2+ / 0-)

                                  Recommended by:
                                  Karmafish, Piggy Podges

                                  the only benefit of the crappy Primary battle diaries is that it gave us a break from these. Same style of argument, same extremist posts from both sides, same logical fallacies and lots of bigotry...but at least it was a subject change.

                                  •  Are both sides extremist in their arguments? (1+ / 0-)

                                    Recommended by:
                                    brittain33

                                    I'm not so certain.

                                    It seems to me that pro-P side tends to be "extremist" to the extent that they are anti-Zionists, and thus believe that Israel should not even exist, and also because they tend to focus solely on Israel as a vicious, militarist entity, without laying any responsibility for the problem at Arab feet.

                                    The pro-I side, therefore, tend to get their knickers all in a twist, and thus get ugly, but are usually willing to admit to the fact of Israeli atrocities.

                                    What's interesting to me is that both sides, generally, oppose the occupation, but you would never know this from how polarized the arguments are.

                                    "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                                    by Karmafish on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 02:51:17 PM PDT

                                    [ Parent ]

                                    •  well, here again we see the limits (2+ / 0-)

                                      Recommended by:
                                      Terra Mystica, Piggy Podges

                                      of this "both sides" conception. You can call anti-Zionists "extremists" if you want, but the fact of the matter is that all they're calling for is democracy. The reason I'm not an anti-Zionist is a purely pragmatic one, but other than that I see no moral reason against it. So it may be "extremist" in the sense that it's a minority position, in the U.S. at least, but it's not in the perjorative sense of the word.

                                      But in any event, what I've posted has nothing to do with anti-Zionism. It's a matter of simple facts. And actually, this whole discussion about biases misses the point. We all have our biases - the point of rational debate is to expose them and test them against the evidence. But no one here seems willing to even attempt to do that.

                                      Some "pro-I" posters claim to be opposed to the occupation, but don't support doing anything about it. Many more oppose the occupation, but view it as a necessary security measure to be ended once the Palestinians stop committing terrorism. And finally there are a few, like I suspect Cecrops Tangaroa, who are just plain nutters who love the occupation to bits.

                                      I don't think that most "pro-I" posters "are usually willing to admit to the fact of Israeli atrocities" - they generally won't challenge the facts, because they can't, but they will either respond by not responding, or by justifying them, which is far worse.

                                      •  Well, I wasn't meaning to make any specific (0+ / 0-)

                                        claims on your diary, heathlander, but on I/P discussion, more generally.

                                        I think, however, that a good argument can be made that anti-Zionism is, in fact, a highly immoral position because it seeks to deny Jewish self-determination even following the Holocaust.

                                        This, needless to say, is not an argument in favor of the occupation or meant as a justification for Israeli atrocities toward the Palestinian people, but merely an argument in favor of the existence of the Jewish state.

                                        You claim that many pro-I people here oppose the occupation, but view it as necessary for security reasons.  Is that right?  I very much hope that you are mistaken, but I haven't been following dKos I/P in quite some time.

                                        "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                                        by Karmafish on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:11:30 PM PDT

                                        [ Parent ]

                                        •  Not really (4+ / 0-)

                                          I'm talking about the kind of anti-Zionism that doesn't object to a Jewish state in principle, but does object to one in Palestine because of the consequences that followed from that (namely, ethnic cleansing) and will continue to follow from that (the refugees can't return to their homes).

                                          "You claim that many pro-I people here oppose the occupation, but view it as necessary for security reasons.  Is that right?"

                                          Yes. I view the occupation as a manifestation of Israel's expansionist aims, and Palestinian violence as a reaction to this. I think that this is what the documentary record quite clearly shows. But many people here apparently view it the other way around: that the occupation is a response to Palestinian violence. It follows from this that only when Palestinian violence stops can the occupation be ended.

                                        •  Zionism is a political, nationalist movement. (3+ / 0-)

                                          There's no moral obligation to support it. Zionism can be accepted or rejected just like any other nationalist movement especially since it's exclusive rather than inclusive. And Zionism is exclusive.

                                          Now some reject Zionism due to beliefs that a state should be representative of all its citizens.

                                          Others reject Zionism due to the harm it has caused and harm has been done in the name of Zionism.

                                          These two positions have merit, karma. Neither are immoral. Therefore, anti-zionism isn't immoral.

                                          Anti-semitism? This is immoral. But anti-semitism isn't the same as anti-zionism.

                                          The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                          by callmecassandra on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 04:17:19 PM PDT

                                          [ Parent ]

                                          •  Well, certainly you can be anti-Zionist without (2+ / 0-)

                                            Recommended by:
                                            Eternal Hope, Piggy Podges

                                            being anti-Semitic, cassandra.  In fact, I presume that most anti-Zionists come to their position from a strong sense of sympathy with, and compassion for, the Palestinian people.

                                            Furthermore, the harm done to the Palestinian people is not the fault of Zionism, per se, but the fault of the Israeli government (and in some measure, other governments) in its responses to the ongoing conflict with the Palestinians and with it's Arab neighbors, more generally.  In other words, there is nothing essentially "Zionist" about the occupation and punishment of the Palestinian people.  

                                            As for the exclusivity that you refer to, yes, this is obviously the biggest problem that Zionism must negotiate.  One the one hand, given the history of world Jewry, it was absolutely necessary to create a Jewish state.  On the other hand, Israel also needs to be as democratic as possible.

                                            The question, of course, is how best to maintain Israel as a Jewish state while still living up to those democratic ideals.

                                            Three things, in my mind, at least, are certain:

                                            1. Israel must give up the occupation of the territories.
                                            1. Israel (along with any other interested country or entity) should do everything it possibly can to help lay the economic and material infrastructure necessary for the emergence of a strong middle-class within a completely autonomous state of Palestine.
                                            1. Demonizing Israel, or Zionists (or Jews, for that matter) is counterproductive towards both number 1 and number 2.

                                            We therefore must find a way of discussing I/P that goes beyond the vitriolic death-grip that has characterized the discussion for so many years now.

                                            "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                                            by Karmafish on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 05:07:55 PM PDT

                                            [ Parent ]

                                            •  Could you elaborate on this? (3+ / 0-)

                                              I think, however, that a good argument can be made that anti-Zionism is, in fact, a highly immoral position because it seeks to deny Jewish self-determination even following the Holocaust.

                                              What is the argument?

                                              Also...

                                              Furthermore, the harm done to the Palestinian people is not the fault of Zionism, per se, but the fault of the Israeli government

                                              That's why I made sure to say harm in the name of Zionism. Of course, at the end of the day, it falls to the individuals who commit the wrong. However, Zionism has been used by leaders and others to justify what has been done against Palestinians.

                                              The question, of course, is how best to maintain Israel as a Jewish state while still living up to those democratic ideals.

                                              Israel can only be a democracy in name for the most and by a few inconsequential laws for the balance for so long as she actively pursues racial/ethnic/class purity.

                                              As to your three points, I agree with 1 & 2.  Regarding 3, what is considered demonization must be defined with common sense as guide.

                                              The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                                              by callmecassandra on