Daily Kos

Who will tell Wall Street to shove it?

Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:22:44 PM PDT

Downstairs I outline my assessment of how Clinton, Obama, and Edwards, are likely to act in the coming economic crises. I also discuss their economic advisers. So, this diary is strictly focused on ECONOMICS, and I would like the comments to not stray from that sole topic.

First, here is my working premise: The sub-prime mortgage crisis pushed the world’s financial system passed the tipping point in August and the world’s financial system is now collapsing. Unfortunately, these financial collapses do not happen in a nice, big explosive fireball like in Die Hard 12 or whatever, so 90 percent or so of the population has not really noticed yet that this IS the End Times, so far as the age of "neo-liberal economics" (please do NOT confuse this with political liberalism – take the time to read the link to Wikipedia).

The financial collapse is already making its effects felt in the real economy  (also see link two paragraphs down), but much worse economic hardship is coming. I do not believe there’s any stopping it at this point. I might be wrong; Ben Bernanke might have some magic solution he can pull out of his butt, but I really doubt it this time.

None of the candidates – Republican or Democrat – are talking about these financial crises, and the economic onslaught they portend. Hillary brought up the "possibility" of recession in the debate on Saturday evening, but this beast is going to be much worse than a mere recession. Obviously, Bernanke, Bush’s Treasury, and the boys on Wall Street are desperately trying to prevent the beast from slouching into public view before the election this year. They might be able to, but I rather doubt it. The most recent economic data on holiday retail sales, and on credit card delinquencies, indicate a dramatic collapse in what economists call aggregate demand generation – which is what caused the Great Depression in the late 1920s.

The obvious conclusion is that the next president of the United States is going to be dealing with an economic collapse. The extreme level of economic hardship that will likely result is going to make the population more open to radical solutions – Naomi Klein’s shock doctrine – but whether the population will opt for progressive solutions or go the way of Germany in the 1920s and 1930s is, I fear, entirely open to question. It will be a terrifyingly interesting dynamic between the next President and the howls of pain from the mob outside that will determine which way the next president goes in dealing with the economic collapse.

My own view is that this is going to be a fight to the death. Either we demolish the power of Wall Street and dismantle the structure of speculative finance and return to industrial capitalism and a Keynesian goal of full employment and wage growth, or the United States will cease to exist as a free, democratic republic in the next ten to twenty years. I honestly believe the stakes are that high.

One final word before I turn to the candidates. There is NO solution to these financial and economic crises within the presently accepted economic belief structure of U.S. elites. I’m not talking about them being capitalists and what we need being socialism (how anyone can still pine for socialism, after the miserable record of state socialism since the Bolshevik Revolution made Russia the first test lab, is beyond my understanding). You must really understand the difference between Keynesian full employment capitalism, which may be thought of as industrial capitalism, and what professional economists unfortunately (and misleadingly) call "neo-liberal economics", which has given rise to the present system of financial capitalism we hate and deplore. Economist James Crotty has a paper in the 2005 book, Financialization and the World Economy, entitled "The Neoliberal Paradox: The Impact of Destructive Product Market Competition and Impatient Finance on Nonfinancial Corporations in the Neoliberal Era." Crotty explains that the pressures of neo-liberal economics have created a new class of idiots savant -- the professional manager -- who believe that managing a company that produces semi-conductor lithographing equipment is not that much different than managing a chain of brothels in Nevada. The typical American manager with MBA in hand no longer views industrial companies as long-term enterprises in which they must carefully nurture a strong commitment to long-run goals by top management, lower level management, specialized professionals, white- and blue-collar workers, and the firm's traditional suppliers. Rather the professional manager views industrial companies as units or collections of sub-units that are liquid assets which can be sold off to capital markets if they "underperform." That pretty much demolishes any idea of long-term commitments or long-term loyalties.  

Hillary Clinton. She may have been the only one to bring up the "possibility" of recession in the debate on Saturday, but the problem with Hillary is crystal clear: she has surrounded herself with stalwarts of "neo-liberal" radical free market economics, including Robert Rubin and Gene Sperling. Remember, former Goldman Sachs chairman Rubin had the Democratic version of "neo-liberal" radical free market economics named after him when he was Bill’s Treasury Secretary: Rubinomics. As Tom Palley wrote in The Nation in May 2007:

Before Democrats can begin to reverse a generation of laissez-faire policy dominance that has put corporations and CEOs ahead of working families, they must debunk Rubinomics, which makes the budget deficit the central focus of economic policy.

If Hillary did end up bucking the wishes of Wall Street, it will be a very slow and painful process as she and her economic advisers blindly stumble their way out of the thicket of neo-liberal radical free market economics in which they have spent their entire lives. I rate the chances of Hillary standing up to Wall Street at around 50 / 50.

Dennis Kucinich. You have to admire the guy’s spunk. But Kucinich would be a repeat of 1860 in the sense that the big money boys would be leaving the United States before he was even sworn in. The big question is: Would he have what it takes to handle the massive international financial instability and economic warfare that would be punitively unleashed? I don’t really know, but his New Age beliefs leave me doubting there is a stern enough core to get the job done. I just don’t seen Kucinich ordering a brigade of the 82nd Airborne onto the Cayman Islands to give prosecutors free access to all those secret bank accounts, which is what might be required if Wall Street gets really vicious in its opposition. I think it is 100 percent certain that Kucinich would tell Wall Street to take a long walk off a short pier, but I think it’s only 50 / 50 that he would actually be mean, tough, and violent enough to actually dismantle the regime of speculative finance.

Barack Obama. There is no longer any doubt the man can inspire. Obama is an orator, in the best traditions of American politics before television ruined it all. Watching the Iowa victory speech, the sheer enthusiasm and passion of everyone in the room was infectious. Shades of JFK and Camelot. It was such a brilliant performance that even Charles Krauthammer on Washington Week in Review admitted Obama was impressive, though he was obviously unhappy admitting it.

But what would Obama do in a confrontation with Wall Street? Obama was a street organizer in some of the worst neighborhoods of Chicago, and his father was from Kenya, so I think Obama has huge empathy for the downtrodden and economically disadvantaged. And, I think Obama was only slightly corrupted by his years in the Ivy League, but this is more wishful thinking than anything else: I really do not know. Unfortunately, I don’t think Obama and the people around him have a clear idea about what’s happening in the economy and the financial markets -- they are paying much more attention to the campaign. I think when push comes to shove there is an excellent chance Obama would tell Wall Street to go screw themselves. But the situation would have to be very dire for Obama and his people to recognize they have to finish off Wall Street once and for all. The good thing about Obama is that he can inspire people, and if this economic beast is going to be as big and bad as I fear, the only thing a lot of people are going to have left is the inspiration Obama can give them.

The big problem with Obama is the same problem Hillary has: his economic advisers are Democratic versions of "neo-liberal" radical free marketeers, so it is going to be the major intellectual breakthrough of their lives to have to admit that most of what they know and believe about economics is wrong. Obama’s most notable economic adviser is Austan Goolsbee, from the University of Chicago – which by itself should be setting off alarm bells since that is the bastion of Milton Friedman’s radical free market economics. In fact, Goolsbee wrote a little homage to Friedman in the New York Times when the latter finally relieved the world of his mortal presence in November 2006.

More recently, Goolsbee told George Will that the threat of free trade and globalization is overblown, because 60 to 70 percent of the economy -- auto mechanics, dentists, doctors, lawyers – do not have to contend with international competition. So, obviously, Goolsbee is overlooking the massive downward pressure on American’s aggregate demand generation (buying power), which is rather surprising, because he has made something of a specialty in studying the distribution of income, especially at the very top. Just take a look through the list of reports and studies he has made available online. Even more surprising, given his research, Goolsbee believes that most of the income inequality results from "radically increased returns to skill" which is the standard movement conservatism excuse for widening income inequality. This completely ignores the unbelievable distribution you find when you focus on just the top ten percent of income earners, which is almost as badly skewed as the national picture – most of the gains have gone to the top one tenth of one percent.

In one of his papers, "What Happens When You Tax the Rich? Evidence from Executive Compensation,"in Journal of Political Economy, April 2000, Goolsbee is worried about "the amount of deadweight loss created by a progressive tax code." He even explicitly points out that a "few thousand executives may account for as much as 21%" of the change in wage and salary income of almost the top one million taxpayers from 1992 to 1993. To his credit, Goolsbee adds that while tax receipts declined dramatically from this group after an increase in tax rates, this was because stock options were exercised, and tax receipts soon recovered in following years. So, the evidence that an extremely small number of extremely rich people have been -- let’s be honest and call it what it is -- looting the United States, is slapping him in the face, but Goolsbee is sticking with the "neo-liberal" radical free market economic theory that higher skills are simply getting paid much more. That misses the whole point of "lifting all boats." If it turns out, as all the evidence now shows, that your pet economic theories are not lifting all boats, well, shouldn’t you begin suspecting that there’s something wrong with the theories? Unless, of course, you really don’t mind -- or are told not to mind, and you obey -- the filthy rich getting ever filthier and ever richer.

So, unless Goolsbee is pulling off some kind of undercover stunt, inflitrating the economics establishment as a mole, there really is no excuse for turning to a guy like Goolsbee for economic advice. George Will even approves of Goolsbee:

Economics is the only academic discipline that in recent decades has moved in the direction that America and much of the world has moved, to the right. Goolsbee no doubt has lots of dubious ideas -- he is, after all, a Democrat -- about how government can creatively fiddle with the market's allocation of wealth and opportunity. But he seems to be the sort of person -- amiable, empirical and reasonable -- you would want at the elbow of a Democratic president, if such there must be.

John Edwards. Personally, Edwards is my choice for the next President. He made his millions as a trial lawyer, meaning he never gave in to the corporate interests, but actually took from them, and, against their will. From personal experience in court, Edwards knows how dirty and underhandedly vicious they can be. As practicing attorney BenGoshi explained in a hard-hitting diary on Sunday asking Obama supporters to show Obama has what it takes to confront the coporatista:

I'm an attorney.  I've compromised and settled many more cases than I've had to try.  But I also know, from about 17 years of experience in taking on the worst of offenders, that no large corporation or insurance company has, or will, EVER come to the bargaining table unless their made to:  appeals to "reason" and "doing the right thing" are taken as weakness by the corporate behemoths.  Mind you, they can be brought to the negotiating table:  when you've got their balls in a vice.  

There would be the same capital flight and punitive financial retaliation as with Kucinich, but I think Edwards would revel in the challenge, and personally savor using the instruments of state to hunt the bastards down and bring them to justice.

A possible problem with Edwards is that he has turned for economics advice to Leo Hindery, a former chairman of the National Cable Television Association, who made $247 million as head of Global Center, which he merged with Exodus Communications. In 2004, Hindery was the money bags behind the Obama ads featuring Osama bin Laden which helped derail the Howard Dean campaign. There is a good bio of Hindery in the dKospedia. To be fair, Hindery is not a born and bred rich prick, and really seems to have thrown himself into political activism. He lent his voice to the outrage over the big tax break given to hedge fund managers last year.

Offsetting the possible problems of having Hindery as an economics adviser, is the fact that a number of leading progressive economists recently endorsed Edwards. Among them is Thomas I. Palley, formerly Assistant Director of Public Policy at the AFL-CIO. He is now working on his own project, Economics for Democratic & Open Societies, to stimulate public discussion about what kinds of economic arrangements and conditions are needed to promote democracy and open society. In 1998, his book, Plenty of Nothing: The Downsizing of the American Dream and the Case for Structural Keynesianism, was published by Princeton University Press.

In the autumn of 2002, Palley published a paper in the Journal of Post Keynesian Economics entitled, "Economic contradictions coming home to roost? does the U.S. economy face a long-term aggregate demand generation problem?" in which he
argues that the

U.S. economy confronts deeper seated problems concerning the aggregate demand generation process. For two decades, these problems have been obscured by a range of demand compensation mechanisms -- rising consumer debt, a stock market boom, and rising profit rates. Now, these mechanisms are exhausted. Fiscal policy adjustments and dollar depreciation are the only stable exits from this impasse, but they must be accompanied by measures rectifying the income distribution imbalances at the root of the problem. Absent this, deficient demand will reassert itself.

Clearly, Palley is an economist who actually gets the picture. In another paper in March 2006, Palley impressively and quite accurately forecast the bursting of the U.S. housing bubble as part of a larger effort to address the increasingly dangerous imbalances in the world financial system. In that paper, which is entitled  "The Fallacy of the Revised Bretton Woods Hypothesis: Why Today’s System is Unsustainable and Suggestions for a Replacement," Palley blames these imbalances directly on the ill effects of "neo-liberal" economics. This paper is also an excellent introduction to why "neo-liberal" radical free market economics will always result in disaster.

Another of the economists who endorsed Edwards and who explicitly rejects "neo-liberal" radical free market economics is Gerald Epstein, who edited the excellent 2005 book, Financialization and the World Economy, which I referenced near the beginning. You can read Epstein’s introduction to the book here. Take the time to read it, especially if you are going to vote tomorrow in New Hampshire.

Tags: economics, Barack Obama, John Edwards, Hillary Clinton (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 39 comments

  •  Tips, flames, rants -- the usual fun (29+ / 0-)

    PLEASE - try to focus on the economics only. Thanks!

    The New York Times interviewed a few of the candidates’ economic advisors yesterday. You can read it here: What Does A Presidential Candidate’s Economic Adviser Actually Do?. A longer listing of candidates’ economic advisors was in the marketwatch.com article on April 27, 2007, available here

    A conservative is a scab for the oligarchy.

    by NBBooks on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:24:32 PM PDT

    •  Interesting diary. (4+ / 0-)

      Might be too substantive for here.  Do you ahve apol instead?  ;-)

      There are systemic problems in the economy.  We are heading for interesting times.

      We need to build real progressive institutions and movements.

      Krugman may be right about a progressive moment, but the people may not be ready.  We need to create that.

      "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

      by TomP on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:27:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Recommended and tipped (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      badgerbrat

      Thanks for doing the research on this important subject.  As Bush showed, it's not just the guy who ends up in the oval office, but all the other guys he brings with him. Those policy makers are just as important.

      I'm also an Edwards supporter, and your diary hasn't changed my mind.  Nor, unfortunately, has it changed my mind on Obama.  I expect that if Obama is elected his administration is going to be disappointing for a lot of liberals.

  •  I'd like to see a discussion wrt who (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    badgerbrat

    the best advisors to pick on this issue might be.  We need some gurus who can turn the problem around.

  •  I completely agree that Wall Street has to (9+ / 0-)

    be brought to heel. One hopes that Obama, should he be nominated and elected, will be able to overcome the sizable donor contributions from Goldman-Sachs, Lehman Brothers, and Morgan Stanley to put the leash on these guys. Edwards, on the other hand, is the best candidate to grab Wall Street and shrink its influence. Oddly the current free fall of the dollar and our dependence on foreign loans to support our war economy may have already shrunk the influence of Wall Street with whomever is the next President. It is really Wall Street that has the most repsonsibility for the current financial crisis from sub prime, stock manipulation, free trade treaties, voodoo economics, to the insane income imbalance in this country. I support John Edwards mstly because of the reasons this diary cites. It is still 'the economy, stupid'!

  •  Very good post. (5+ / 0-)

    While I'm not totally convinced that we are facing anything close to a Great Depression, you make very good pts regarding the economic perspective of the candidates.  Edwards is my guy too but Obama would be a great POTUS so I'm not upset.

    That said, the whole way we do economics in this country has to be re-thought.  We need a radical shift away from everything we've done the past 20 years.

  •  Recession (3+ / 0-)

    To be ruthlessly cynical, the coming recession might play out perfectly for the Dems.  If we spend much of 2008 in recession or near-recession territory, the Dem canidates can use that as a stick to beat on the Republicans.  The business cycle might turn around by the time a new Dem president takes office, using the resurgent economy to implement needed reforms for health care and the environment.  

    Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

    by johnny rotten on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:40:01 PM PDT

  •  I just hope the Bush's plan to straighten (5+ / 0-)

    out the economy is not to go to war with Iran. More borrowing is not a way out.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:40:08 PM PDT

  •  What about Jeffrey Liebman? He's pro-privatizatio (0+ / 0-)

    n for SS, and he's an Obama economic adviser.
    His plan for SS calls on using the surplus from the payroll tax cap increase to start personal accounts.

  •  Much worse than a recession? (0+ / 0-)

    Do you mean a depression?

    The theory was interesting--and frightening. How would this theory play out in the real world?

    What would depression look like, 2008-style?

  •  You Already Know the Truth (4+ / 0-)

    And you wrote it in you first few paragraphs:

    One final word before I turn to the candidates. There is NO solution to these financial and economic crises within the presently accepted economic belief structure of U.S. elites.

    Now, aside from the word "elites" -- which is merely the personification of a system -- how could anyone who understands economic fundamentals argue with that?

    There is nothing that any presidential candidate -- Democrat or Republican -- can do. We're done, economically as a nation. All we got is trying to sell our assets as fast as possible to wealthier nations -- and still keep borrowing 10 billion dollars per day from them to keep the lights on.

    Down here in the trenches -- you know what we talk about? Can we keep letting the market sink, then slash a quarter point from the Fed rate to boost it -- rinse and repeat again and again -- until after the elections? Will we be able to push the collapse off for 11 more months?

    Right now, that's all anyone in the money game cares about.

    Other than that -- its a nice Diary.

    Pluto now orbits Overnight News Digest ʍou sʇıqɹo oʇnld

    by Pluto on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:48:57 PM PDT

    •  FDR got us out of the Depression (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      BBelle, Stranded Wind

      by raising the income tax on the top 1% to 70% of their income.  He used the federal government as a regulator of raises and incentives for health care.  
      He made it so that the businesses couldn't raise the wages of the top without raising the wages of the lowest paid.  He actively encouraged unions.  

      Yes, FDR was a radical in many ways.  But his depression cure worked.  With our current politicians something this 'out of line' would be 'unthinkable' to most.  But it got the job done.  

      I don't know what the next depression will look like, but we need someone who could dare to do 'unheard' of things (like regulate an industry instead of de-regulate it) when and if this happens.  

      •  FDR got US out of Depression w War spending (0+ / 0-)

        that barrel's been tapped.

        Every prophet knows that nobody loves you for being the enemy of their illusions. --Wm Sloane Coffin.

        by Orpheus on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 04:05:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  what FDR did (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ThatBritGuy

          was far more incredible.  He produced a time for about forty years where the richest 10% were not widening their income gap with the poor.  
          Since the seventies (if I remember right) the income gap has been growing again, but FDR was able to strengthen unions so that there was more educatin than ever before, create a feeling in the US that it was 'immoral' to earn 200 times what someone inside your company was making.  Progressive income taxes were truly progressive and that wealth was spread throughout the ecomony.  We had an ecomonic boom for years, even though the rich had higher taxes (this is what we now are told :  that our ecomony would sink if we 'taxed out innovation' read: greed).  
          I also learned in school that the depression was 'cured' by the war.  This isn't by accident.  Isn't it strange that the textbooks don't talk about the rest of what he did?  We learn (and repeat of course) that FDR got us out of the depression because of the war, and thus the war in the Iraq must be doing the same because we all know wars are good for the economy.  
          But it was the less trumpeted part of what FDR did that created real wealth in this country for the workers.  Real living wages for work.  Yes, one can have a war and increase the poverty of the majority of the population.  Surely you must know that.  
          Remember GW's 'boom' that nobody felt?  

          •  thank you (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Pluto, badgerbrat

            for a thoughtful reply.

            I never heard a relationship between "unions" and increased education; I always thought that the post-WWII GI Bill was responsible for the 'surge' in education.  Fr. Andrew Greeley wrote in a book about what Catholics believe, that in 1950, the priest and two or three percent of the people in the pews had more than a high school education; within 10 years, that percentage approached 40%.

            As to the second point, re wars & depression, I, too, completely reject the notion that Iraq was a good idea because wars stimulate economies.  I do, however, believe that Bush did use the economy to siphon off the number of persons who would otherwise be in the domestic job market; to 'cull the herd,' to create employment and investment opportunities in defense industries.
            But in the main, I was trying to hint at the irony that for Bush, the war came BEFORE the depression, and most likely as a causal agent.

            It is instructive to note that Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait because in the aftermath of Iraq's war on Iran, Iraq was $70 billion in debt.  Saddam argued that Iraq went to war to benefit the other Arab states so they ought to poney up.  Kuwait laughed at him, offered him 10% of what Iraq needed to right its economy, and Kuwait lowered the price of oil.  For Kuwait, lowering marginal income was not a problem; they could supplement with foreign investments.  But all Iraq had to market was oil; cheap oil further weakened Iraq's economy.  Finally, Kuwait was laterally drilling into Iraq's oil fields.  The moral of the story: debts cause depressions which cause wars, wars don't solve depressions.

            Every prophet knows that nobody loves you for being the enemy of their illusions. --Wm Sloane Coffin.

            by Orpheus on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 04:37:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Orpheus (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Orpheus

              don't know if you'll ever see this, but I want to respond.  What I meant by 'education by  unions' was that there was more political participation by workers (through their unions and through their friends that may be unionized).  I believe a lot of what we have been sold (the GW tax cuts for example) would not have been sold so easily if we were still as unionized as we were for the thirty years after FDR.  
              That's what I meant.  I agree that unions don't equal education.  :)  Thanks for your response, btw.  

    •  Do the following.... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      badgerbrat
      1. End the Iraq war.

      Put at least $100 billion a year back into the private economy.

      1. Revert the tax code to the 2000 law.

      Worst case: Neutral regarding putting money in the economy.

      How? A conservative would ask.  The only difference between borrowing and taxing as far as money in the economy is that borrowing transfers wealth from the taxed to the wealthy and foreign banks who buy government bonds and raises long term interest rates.  Taxing just takes the money for the taxed and uses it for government functions. No portion of the money from the taxes goes to bond holders.

      Probably would result in economic stimulus by providing money for infrastructure rebuilding.  Removing some of the supply of government debt thereby reducing long term interest rates and providing money for investment in private enterprise.  Maybe in such hot sectors as alternative energy.

      1. Catch Bin Laden and end the Afghanistan war.
      1. Spend $10 billion a year for the next 30 years adjusting for inflation on alternative energy research and incentives.  That should take care of energy prices, and a significant portion of the trade deficit.
      1. Raise the minimum wage.  Income disparity needs to be addressed. Tax a little more at the top and increase income at the bottom.  some may call it redistributing wealth, I call it basic fairness.
  •  one of the best diaries I've seen yet! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    rainmanjr, Tam in CA

    A real issue and one we will face.  And then a look at the candidates.  

    Wish I could rec it a million times.  Thank you for this.  

  •  You ask who (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BBelle, Stranded Wind

    will tell Wall Street to shove it?  Among the candidates (who have a chance)  John Edwards seems most likely to insert it.  But the Progressive Blogosphere can't be bothered.  It's too busy beating up Hillary Clinton.

    Does the star spangled banner still wave o'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

    by blue guitar on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:54:48 PM PDT

    •  The Great and Holy Iowa hath Spoken (0+ / 0-)

      Lo, as it did four years ago, Iowa hath spoken, and in its mighty voice it hath annointed the candidate.  Edwards has no more chance than  Clinton having suffered the Wrath of Iowa.

      A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. ~Edward R. Murrow

      by ActivistGuy on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 04:00:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Edwards is the one (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      badgerbrat

      but the media choses our nomines.
      Hillary and obama suporters go along with it

    •  Obama made the point the other night (0+ / 0-)

      that he's already been to Wall Street to deliver a message they didn't want to hear -- same as he did to the automakers in Detroit.

      He'll say "Excuse me" while doing it, but I don't think the guy is afraid of stepping on anyone's toes.

      The Republican Party: Reinventing government, the same way they reinvented New Orleans

      by QuestionableSanity on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 05:58:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Is it possible for green markets to take command? (0+ / 0-)

    Can the rise of green companies, commodities, and energies serve to replace the neo-liberal market with one that's more sustainable?  Can this switch avert a collapsing market system if the green market is strong enough to prop-up the replacement?
    Like most people, I'm no genius at economic theory.  This is all very difficult for me too sort through but, I hope, I get the gist of your diary.  Forgive me if my questions are actually stupid.

    "I am here because of Ashley." - Unknown Obama supporter.

    by rainmanjr on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:57:45 PM PDT

    •  Yes, if we get our way (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      terabytes, rainmanjr

      I think you have seen me argue before that someone trying to support a family on $20k a year is not likely to but an energy efficient light bulb for $6.00. I think there are a lot of people that would buy green, if they could afford it. Right now, the response of U.S. elites to "if they could afford it" is that once the market becomes large enough, unit prices will come done. My response is: if wages went up, you don't have to worry about unit prices, AND, the market ALSO becomes large enough for unit prices to decline.

      So why are the elites stuck in this wrong way of looking at the issue? Because of they believe in a particular economic theory that prevents them from seeing it any other way. As John Maynard Keynes once observed:

      The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.

      A conservative is a scab for the oligarchy.

      by NBBooks on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 04:45:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ManfromMiddletown, terabytes

      The neo-lib markets aren't really about money, they're about the concentration of power - which happens to be mediated by money.

      Green energy is inherently a mix of Big Industry and small-scale entrepreneurial start-ups. The start-ups will be mom+pop operations working in local areas and doing some trading on the Internet.

      Most of them will never be floated on the money markets.

      This will take money out of Wall Street and put it back into the pockets of real entrepreneurs, out of the direct reach of the hedge funds and analysts and other racketeers. (Some of it will eventually be re-invested, but this will be done at the discretion of the small guys, many of whom will have green/ethical sympathies.)

      Wall St loves Big Industry. It has no time for the small guy, so this kind of organic open economy is pretty much Wall Street's worst nightmare.

      Of course it's the right answer for 99.9% of the population. But the sharks and locusts and racketeers in the other 0.1% aren't going to see it that way.

      "Be kind" - is that a religion?

      by ThatBritGuy on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 04:48:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hindry and obama ads (0+ / 0-)

    I dont get that

  •  The Age of Precarity (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Stranded Wind

    Outside of the very highest ranks of Corporatia, and certain protected professions, employment secuirity and economic security are now entirely a thing of the past.  The lower middle class, the working class and the poor will henceforth live in a constant state of precarity, driven by the whims of God's Own Ordained Market Forces, rootless, friendless, and ultimately hopeless living a semi-nomadic desperate struggle for mere survival.  This will be justified by republicans and Democrats alike as promoting prosperity with a pro-business agenda.

    A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. ~Edward R. Murrow

    by ActivistGuy on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 04:05:11 PM PDT

  •  Please explain Shumpeter to a non-economist (0+ / 0-)

    Is he in the neo-liberal camp or the Keynesian style of thinking?

    Or is it a matter of emphasis?
    My understanding is that Shumpeter believed economies progressed on the basis of new inventions -> new technologies.  I think the neo liberals emphasize the destructive end of Shumpeter's thinking:  the buggy whip makers have to be run out of the village, rather than the creative + compassionate/Adam Smith version:   horseless carriage builders will create more jobs for the village and with our excess wealth we'll help the unemployed buggy-whip maker.

    Every prophet knows that nobody loves you for being the enemy of their illusions. --Wm Sloane Coffin.

    by Orpheus on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 04:09:32 PM PDT

  •  You're right, but its too late (0+ / 0-)

    The die has been cast on this one and we wait to reap the rewards. Dollar down 30% last year, probably another 50% this year. Sovereign default by the United States? They'll call the new currency the Amero or something silly like that ... but only after we form the North American economic zone ... to better pillage the fossil fuel resources of our neighbors.

    The dollars value was tied to the security the United States supplied to the global oil stream after we ended the gold standard. The outright fraud of the SIV/CDO nonsense coupled with the peaking of global oil production 5/2005 mean an end to its position as a reserve currency.

     My parents lived through this from 1929 to 1941. This times its different due to oil supplies - we get knocked down and we don't get back up. Ever.

  •  damn you! (0+ / 0-)

    I think you're right.  I still support obama over edwards and kucinich above them both.  The economic advice will make a huge difference.  

    I think this may be an error of Obama's judgment, however, I must point out that Edwards supported all sorts of free trade agreements and etc. that he is now apologizing for.  He also was on the security council- so he "read" the law he signed which approved Bush's action in Iraq.

    I don't think we can trust Edwards that much more than Obama but you my friend just made a very very strong case.   Sometimes people who specialize in law or political science wrongly assume that the only pro-business policies are those that hurt the poor, because they themselves don't know as much about economics.

    MAKE TRADE FAIR DAMMIT! And impeachbush.org! (1 mill+ names already)

    by siamesewonka on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 04:21:50 PM PDT

  •  Americans must be educated about this! (0+ / 0-)

    Seriously, why do so many liberals even believe that it is ok for CEO's to be paid rediculous sums of money.  We need to figure out how to restructure corporations.  Germany has union members that sit on the CEO reimbursement board of directors.  Here in the US, we just blindly think that businesses should be feeding their executives massive amounts to entice them to perform. This is simply not sustainable and ethically wrong!

    Can you please explain why Americans think that "CEOS should be reembursed?  KOS'ers and lurkers would really benefit..as would I.

    MAKE TRADE FAIR DAMMIT! And impeachbush.org! (1 mill+ names already)

    by siamesewonka on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 04:26:33 PM PDT

  •  excellent diary (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Pluto

    i wish there were more sensible folks in this country. we're headed for a meltdown economically... the top economists in the country have endorsed john edwards... and you write this

    The big problem with Obama is the same problem Hillary has: his economic advisers are Democratic versions of "neo-liberal" radical free marketeers, so it is going to be the major intellectual breakthrough of their lives to have to admit that most of what they know and believe about economics is wrong.

    it's kinda scary about how it might all turn out.

    i've got a vision... a world free of george w bush. yes!

    by titotitotito on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 04:40:46 PM PDT

  •  Would the cons let the banks fail (0+ / 0-)

    to destroy the Democratic Party? Would it work?

  •  And then came an improvement ... (0+ / 0-)

    According to an evaluation of data from the U.S. Department of Treasury, the cost of goods and services remained relatively consistent between 1635 and 1913, around a level of roughly 25 times the buying power of the U.S. dollar in 2006.

    What is past, is prologue

    by US2oz on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 07:17:32 PM PDT

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