Daily Kos

Rescuing Stranded Wind, Reducing Food Miles Traveled

Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 12:02:41 AM PDT

First we must state that we are perfectly safe, so you can stop dialing 911. We are talking about that  other sort of Stranded Wind. Briefly, what we mean is this:

Stranded wind is wind energy available in an area that has neither the population and industry to use it nor transmission lines to transport it elsewhere.

We mean, through our efforts here, via our web site, and through other outreach, to make the phrase stranded wind as well known as the hydrogen economy or Canadian tar sands. Below the fold we give reasons which we hope will encourage you to help us in this pursuit, in this case ways and means to reduce fossil fuel use in agriculture, food transportation, and increase food security at the same time.

Our assumptions:

Today the average meal travels 1,500 miles from farm to table and there is a national movement of people reducing the food miles in their diet. This is all well and good, but there are other inputs to the farming process which are of even greater concern than the farm to table loop.

First, an aside on the difference between a liberal and a progressive. A liberal has fine ideals and is not so good at math. A progressive respects these ideals, but will do a quick back of napkin calculation when a scheme to reach this or that ideal is proposed.

We like the idea of organic food. We despise the efforts to reduce the standards in this area to a set of Wal-Mart friendly buzzwords. Some of us won't shop anywhere but organic stores. All well and good, but this is not scalable at this time. If we ever get to the laudable goal of having an entirely organic food system it will be an evolution rather than a revolution, and in the mean time people still need to eat. We suggest only progressive goals rather than ones that might be characterized as liberal.


Our existing farming methods must be maintained or we face certain disaster.


Significant inputs to industrial scale farming:

Large scale corn farming in the United States requires an application of about 125 pounds per acre of anhydrous ammonia in order to reach current yields. Anhydrous ammonia is formed by the Haber-Bosch process and uses about 3% of the global natural gas supply at this point.

Large scale corn farming takes a lot of diesel fuel, somewhere between five and ten gallons an acre. Transport to market also requires diesel fuel for the trains which transport the grain.

Global oil production peaked in May of 2005 and global natural gas production will peak in the same fashion somewhere between 2010 and 2012. If we don't make our current farming practices renewable very quickly we will face serious food shortages in the United States as these geological certainties make themselves known.


What can be done to protect ourselves?

 Stranded Wind is a fine tool which we can easily wield to shield ourselves from these troubles. We should proceed at once in a three pronged attack consisting of wind driven ammonia as a fertilizer, wind driven ammonia as a farm fuel, and wind driven rail electrification.


Ammonia: fertilizer & fuel of the 21st century

We have written extensively twice before on the use of ammonia as a farm fuel. One poster will always say "This is too dangerous to use in cars". Obvious, we say, hence the label farm fuel. Our farmers are already  trained to handle the substance and they receive annual safety refresher courses.

Our ammonia fertilizer supply is in grave danger. Currently over 50% is made over seas and shipped to the United States. Given that the dollar is crashing, natural gas will be peaking, and oil has already peaked we may find ourselves outbid for a product we can't afford to transport here even if we could afford it. To put this in perspective, the people of the United States need air, water, ammonia, and then crude oil products and natural gas. If our farm yields fall the wheels come off the rest of it very quickly.


Rail electrifcation:

 Siberia has electric rail all the way across and has for a few years.. We're still stuck with diesel engines for our trains.

 Had we spent one tenth the price of Bush's adventure in Iraq turning 25,00 miles of our national rail system to electric drive we'd have broken our imported fossil fuel dependency. Thanks to the Worst. President. Ever. we must now accomplish this rail electrification with seven more years behind us and the dollar losing its status as a reserve currency.

 Stranded wind can help here, at least in the upper Midwest where the grain trains roam. There is a pretty strong correlation between where the rail is, where good wind is, and all that is needed is a stabilizing tax policy to encourage the railroads to invest in electric infrastructure. Their right of way will in many cases be all the land that is needed for the turbine placement to drive their locomotives. This process will also drive the creation of new electricity transmission corridors, freeing stranded wind in a way other than through these various relocalization strategies that we propose.


Conclusions:

 The wind power needed to free our corn crop from dependency on a soon to peak natural gas supply for fertilization should cost roughly twenty billion dollars. The rail electrification will require about seventy five billion dollars to complete nationally.

We offer no cost estimate on the fossil farm fuel replacement component of this proposal; it needs more analysis before we can say anything other than we believe it to be a good idea. That twenty billion mentioned above would only develop one eighth of the wind in Iowa alone, so there is plenty more available for renewable fuel use, we just don't know what the requirement is yet.

The price of failure:

 We watch with more than a little concern the progression of events in Mexico, as we believe it will qualify for the dreaded failed state label, perhaps as soon as this year. The experiences of the Mexican people, facing 400% staple food cost increases with declining income and infrastructure being torn up by various rebel factions are likely a good proxy for what will happen in the United States should our moves not be swift and sure in shielding ourselves from peak oil/gas and the attendant food security concerns.

(UPDATE #1

 We are pleased to see well thought out responses favoring organic approaches to fertilization. The responders, however, suffer from that liberal vs. progressive problem we site above: How does one get from point A to point B? If you've got a plan, round up a lawyer, a banker, some investors, and get with it. If policy changes are needed to support these efforts then make them. If that doesn't happen you have a theory rather than a plan. We suggest that if this is the case you may find refuge in a research position.

 We are quite hurt by the insinuations that our plans for renewable fertilizer and fuel are business as usual. Do as we suggest and it breaks the back of big oil.

 We found this quite amusing:


Also, I think it's absurd to suggest that the US will suffer food shortages because we won't be able to afford the energy and fertilizer inputs.  Please site any sort of numbers to support this.

That this will come to pass is so painfully obvious that even tired old industry guard dogs like the EIA have admitted there is trouble. You will find much discussion of these concepts if you begin digging here.

http://europe.theoildrum.com/...  

)

(UPDATE #2

 NRG Guy assumes we're going to continue what Leanan, editor for The Oil Drum's daily Drum Beat segment calls "our happy motoring lifestyle". We assume that SUVs will be melted down, producing roughly 80' of steel rail each, and their glass will be used for train windows and greenhouses. Given this assumption, more closely grounded in reality than any one person/four wheels fantasy, the electrification of rail coupled with a significant collapse in driving would break our dependency on foreign oil.
)

Tags: renewable energy, stranded wind, ammonia fuel, food security (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 29 comments

  •  jar of tipping (11+ / 0-)

    You tip us best when you visit Energize America 2020 and make a small donation.

    No liberals, Mexicans, or liberal Mexicans were harmed in the making of this diary, however some may feel insulted. We're OK with that, just as long as you don't starve.

    •  LOL! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      AnotherMassachusettsLiberal

      A progressive is a liberal with better math skills.

      •  speaking of math, can I get some help? (0+ / 0-)

        One of my 2008 goals is to have at least 25% of the food consumed in my house to be purchased at a farmers market within 10 miles.  At most, I will drive there 10 times per year.  I'm going to can/preserve some of the stuff, which will consume kwh.

        Will this make a significant impact in my carbon footprint?
        thanks

        •  No (0+ / 0-)

          The gas used traveling to and from the farmers market may be significant enough to offset the benefits of avoided food transportation.

        •  You can eliminate the impact of your... (1+ / 0-)

          ...electrical usage if you sign up to have all of your power generated by renewable sources.  I did that at my home - it costs me an extra $19 per month, which I happily offset by introducing CFL bulbs wherever possible and being more tuned in to shutting stuff of when not is use.

          Here's a link to green power options by state:

          http://www.eere.energy.gov/...

          Next year, I'm buying a plug-in hybrid vehicle, which will almost elimminate my carbon footprint due to locomotion, since I'll be plugging the car into a green-powered outlet when charging!

        •  If its 10 miles ... is it necessary to drive? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rick Winrod

          I cycle 14 miles each way to work when I get called in (obviously, not much since Christmas week) ... an electric bike and a trailer would allow you to cart home quite a bit of produce.

          •  is it OK if I use my 1984 biodiesel VW? (0+ / 0-)

            •  Everything is a trade off (0+ / 0-)

              I would have answered this sooner if you hadn't attached to the tip jar. It goes against a personal rule of mine to even acknowledge comments that are. However you are getting some really negative and abrupt responses and I think your question is good and in the best place.

              There's lots of benefits to buying local especially if you are going to buy more of the harvest at it's peak and preserve it to eat in the off season and won't be going out and buying food from far off areas to eat out-of-season.

              What would be even better is the more you preserve as canned and/or dried as that doesn't need energy to maintain the preserved qualities which is important if there's an outage. Canned tomatoes, sun-dried tomatoes, dried apples, etc. can be great for winter cooking which also eliminates the need to drive to the grocery store and picking up food that's traveled great distances but...

              Even more is supporting viable agriculture near your home. The more we buy from that is grown in China and South America the less those who grow here can hang on and if/when there is a major catastrophe we won't have the infrastructure to feed ourselves. It's especially bad in the Midwest where almost all that is grown has to be processed to have any value and nearly everything edible has to be brought in from elsewhere. Not a lot of shipping routes there.

              Furthermore the closer food is sourced the better it tastes and the less nutrition loss it has so since it's nutrients we need from our food it has more value per calorie. Also, the closer the food and therefore fresher, the longer it will last so it won't be going bad within a day or two which means less need to constantly shop.

              Do you want/need more resources? Have you considered a CSA?

              Here's my list for finding food:

              To find Community Supported Agriculture (CSAs), farmers markets, co-ops, locally owned markets, pastured eggs and meats, cheeses, even seeds and materials to grow your own home gardening even in window boxes, hanging baskets, or pots, and much, much more usually by zip code or town/city check out these links (the last includes UK resources).

              PickYourOwn.org
              Food Routes
              Community Gardens
              Sustainable Table
              Local Harvest
              Eat Wild
              Organic Consumers Buying Guide
              Green People
              Co-ops
              Oceans Alive
              Eat Well Guide
              Happy Cow Restaurant Locator
              Canadian Organic Growers
              Animal, Vegetable, Mineral -- Locating Local

              I also have lists of films, books, and internet sites and blogs that would help you get and feel more connected if you are interested but certainly seek out the Future of Food and The Real Dirt on Farmer John as well as perhaps King Corn to get you started. Independent America is good as well though not so much about food.

              People would be very surprised at where the foods are sourced from that that fill the boxes and cans on the corporate grocery shelves, if they weren't so hesitant to look into it. There's a fear to look because once one does find out there becomes an obligation to do something different since our conscience won't let us continue once we do have a clue.

              Sourcing locally is to also know where the food comes from as well as who grew it. It's nice to be able to ask the grower direct questions and get real answers.

              Even better if you take a friend or two with you and pick up more stuff for friends, neighbors, family, etc.

              Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

              by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 07:51:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Howdy, Stranded Wind! Informative and (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    A Siegel, Rick Winrod, Stranded Wind

    interesting info, as always.   Implementing your ideas would help build the resiliency our country needs for the near future.  Thanks for posting.

    Damn the neo-cons! Full speed ahead!

    by Aaa T Tudeattack on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 12:49:04 AM PDT

  •  Wow... I have to disagree with much of this (12+ / 0-)

    I'm exhausted but what I'm about to say seems to have as much of a foothold as what you've put forth and mine has many more actual solutions.

    First of all, the reason we have industrial farming is because of corporate farming and NOT because it will feed the world. That's the meme to get us to back it.

    Organic CAN feed the world but it also may be the only hope.

    Organic also does not subject field workers (whether documented or otherwise) or neighbors to intake of the various chemicals applied. Often so disasterously.

    And it's far more nutritious than the corporate industrial food complex. In so many, many ways! What we have now is starving obesity where it takes so much more to meet nutritional needs that even though we are breaking the scales we are still always hungry, craving those vitamins and nutrients not provided in the spacer food that does nothing but fill endless holes.

    Amonia fertilizers kill all in the soil but the soil needs to be alive. When it is alive it can better deal with drought and floods and Monsanto and friends' genetically tampered crops need optimum conditions including massive amounts of water and oil. Fertilizer is not the only petro-input.

    But we do really need to re-examine the whole corn growing mind-set as well. It's a nasty spiral of a mostly useless crop which again is all about corporate coffers at the expense of tax payers accounts and much deception. It's not really food just masquerading as such.

    Meanwhile the inputs for all that intensive corn is going into the waterways and groundwaters killing off life (and high-protein foods) and poisoning our potable water. And further pollution from that which we grow most of the corn for (some 60% now that 25% goes for ethanol)

    What we have set up now is far more worse that Peak Oil and that's Peak Soil and Peak Water. We absolutely do have to change up the way we grow food much more than how we get the same ol' same 'ol we've been getting.

    The Rise and Predictable Fall of Globalized Industrial Agriculture
    November 26, 2007
    by Craig Mackintosh

    Our present system of food production, commodification and trade brings with it many associated climate-change-inducing inefficiencies, as well as a chain-reaction of environmentally, socially and economically destructive practices. So, in the long term at least, it’s not all bad news that this system is bringing about its own demise. Here are several of the main ways this is happening:

    Climate change: The IPCC report and other studies predict that agriculture is going to become increasingly difficult in a warming world. Indeed, we don’t even need to look to the future, as it’s happening around us today. More droughts, more floods. Whereas sustainable farming practices and localised distribution are carbon neutral, the globalised monocrop model is the largest contributor to climate change.

    Peak Oil: The whole model is based on perpetual supplies of fossil fuels - from production (farm machinery, pesticides, herbicides and fertilisers), through to transportation, distribution and purchasing. Even the centralised retail aspect is a major contributor. At a time where energy demand is expected to increase exponentially, energy supplies are waning. This will necessarily drive up the cost of food production.

    Peak Water: Arguably the biggest concern for this century. Modern farming systems use significantly more water, due to the lack of soil structure inherent in these systems, and along with the use of seed strains unsuitable for their locale.

    Peak Soil: Depletion/Compaction/Erosion. Along with water, this is our most precious of resources, and its health is last on the list of priorities for the industries that have almost complete control of it.

    Desertification: Caused by loss of soil life and moisture, overgrazing, over-cultivating, lack of cover crops, etc..

    Land Use Competition: Think biofuels and population growth.

    Changing Diets - China and other Asian nations developing a penchant for western land/water-intensive diets.

    The Future of Food introduction (about 9 minutes)

    Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

    by CSI Bentonville on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 12:50:24 AM PDT

    •  good points, CSI, but (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      AlanF, gmoke, A Siegel, Rick Winrod

      even organic farming, on any scale larger than mere neighborhood subsistence, will also require machinery, and thus fuel, for both farming processes, and crop transpo.

      It is certainly a worthy goal to grow everything possible as close to point of consumption as possible, and every back-yard urban garden is a help, but large scale, mechanised agriculture is not going away until you can get a whole lot of people to choose to return to the land.

      Kindly do not focus in merely on SW's focus on ammonia as a fertiliser and dismiss dismiss his real point of rethinking how we produce and consume energy.

      Sorry I don't have time right now to go on.

      don't always believe what you think...

      by claude on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 05:54:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You know, it's policy more than anything and... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        KiaRioGrl79, xaxnar, Scubaval

        if people and groups such as those at Energize America backed it rather than the status quo, then more sustainable farming on a grand scale is more than doable (I encourage you to read and digest the links I have provided in both my posts).

        In fact, if this is indeed official Energize America policy here then I'm sorely disappointed and will need to raise a ruckus with Jerome A Paris and A Siegel.

        At the very least industrial farming can be done much more environmentally friendly which requires much less petro-inputs. Between suppressed studies and the experience in the Eastern European waterways illustrates:

        The dead zone on the northwestern shelf of the Black Sea peaked at 20,000 square kilometers in the 1980s. Largely because of the collapse of centralized economies in the region, phosphorus applications were cut by 60 percent and nitrogen use was halved in the Danube River watershed and fell similarly in other Black Sea river basins. As a result, the dead zone shrank. In 1996 it was absent for the first time in 23 years. Although farmers sharply reduced fertilizer use, crop yields did not suffer proportionately, suggesting they had been using too much fertilizer before.

        It is believed we can produce substantial crops on about 10% of the current application of nitrogen fertilizers they receive. But that's not Wal-Street profitable. However, it's not sustainable either. Not to the waterways or those jobs the waterways support, not to the economies of those who live in the Mid-West or anywhere in the world practicing the industrial growing techniques or to the soil which is going to collapse sooner rather than later especially with the push for corn which is extremely greedy and intensive crop.

        [I]ndependent Minnesota farm researcher Ken Meter challenges that wisdom. In the seminal 2001 paper "Finding Food in Farm Country" [PDF], written with John Rosales of the University of Minnesota, Meter argues persuasively that the dismal economics of farm-state agriculture could be improved by developing local markets.

        Meter's work shows that commodity farming, rather than building wealth, extracts money from rural communities. In a seven-county region of southeastern Minnesota in 1997, farmers brought in an impressive $866 million selling their wares. However, amazingly, they incurred $947 million in costs to do so -- a loss of a cool $80 million. Federal subsidies covered just half of that loss; the rest had to be made up by non-farming activities.

        Moreover, nearly half of the $947 million in incurred expenses left the area, as payments to distant suppliers of seeds, fertilizer, and pesticides, or to banks in the form of interest.

        Meanwhile, though, the seven-county region's 120,000 households were busily buying food and eating it. Meter reckons that southeastern Minnesotans were spending $500 million on food annually -- and only $2 million of it on fare grown within the region. Yet if they could manage to buy just 20 percent of their food from nearby growers, that would amount to $100 million in additional sales for the region's farms, more than wiping out their $80 million loss in 1997.

        There are third party certifying agencies for more sustainable farming and through pressure and the ability to market many companies are hopping on and going with these foods overseen by those such as Food Alliance.

        However, those types of crops the technology this diary supports, while only being around for a bit over a decade, even grown more responsibly, are responsible for the emergence of Super-Pest weeds and bugs that we won't be able to deal with not to mention being implicated in the growing storm of antibiotic resistance currently brewing.

        If we are indeed looking at our world as a whole and not just throwing more bandaids on the problems then we will want to get away from the Industrial Food Complex which is hemmoraging and taking us with it. That whole system is about swallowing a spider to take care of the fly.

        We need to get out of the mindset that organic is only backyard because it isn't and shouldn't be.

        ~~~~

        I do agree on alternatives for rail transport, etc but that's not what this diary was focusing on. Rather it was defining what a Progressive is and that a Progressive doesn't do that Hippie crap around food. I not only believe that is wrong I believe what is being asserted about the need is wrong as well.

        I would kindly ask you don't lecture me about what I'm reading or taking from the diary or what I see the main focus is. I don't believe I'm the only one seeing it and frankly the diary itself is chastising and dismissive enough.

        Sorry, but we don't need "Progressives" doing the work of Agribusiness and the Hudson Institute with their astroturf organizations such as "Center for Global Food Issues" and continuing the marginalization of the best solution.

        Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

        by CSI Bentonville on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 07:49:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Argh! Furthermore, in regards to Mexico and food (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        KiaRioGrl79, xaxnar, Scubaval

        I just posted on this the other night. Most of the issue there is the big corporations taking advantage along with OUR subsidized corn crop here being taken down there because it gets bought by the masters of agribusiness for less than it costs to produce thanks to our massively pig-head [Food &] Farm Bill about to hit Congress for reconciling between the House and Senate versions..

        It's that corporate manipulation that is forcing corn farmers off their land south of the border and into our country from the desperation while the poor are essentially force-fed our nutrient-deficient mono-crop we grow far too much of as their breeds face permanent extinction.

        Tom Philpott (who was on the food panel at yKos in Chicago) has a few articles on Archer Daniels Midland and how they manipulated corn and politics which has led to not only the rise in prices of tortillas in Mexico but the loss of nutrition (which means it takes more tortillas to equal the previous nutrition and that leads to obesity). It's also driving undocumented immigrants north to the States as they are driven off their land from the cheap subsidized corn from the States (so subsidized it's bought for less than it actually cost to produce but the guaranteed income leads banks to make loans for it which leads to overproduction).

        It's a cascade...

        Tortilla Spat
        How Mexico's iconic flatbread went industrial and lost its flavor
        By Tom Philpott
        13 Sep 2006

        In a spectacle similar to the one conjured up by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000, a Mexican judiciary panel handed the nation's presidency to Felipe Calderón last week. Even The New York Times, in its circumspect way, acknowledged that the new president-elect's narrow victory over leftist rival Andrés Manuel López Obrador involved seemingly illegal activity by Calderón's governmental and big-business supporters.

        Calderón represents Mexico's conservative National Action Party (PAN), which scuttled more than 70 years of one-party rule by defeating the Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI) in the 2000 presidential election. But PAN candidate Vicente Fox's victory that year, despite all of the international hoopla it generated, did not mark a fundamental shift in Mexico's economic policy. Fox, a former Coca-Cola executive, essentially preserved the economic regime that had been instituted by the PRI in the mid-1980s.

        Since that time, Mexico has generally hewn to the "neoliberal" economic line beloved of Wall Street and the International Monetary Fund: low taxes, tight monetary and fiscal policies, privatization of governmental enterprises, and a commitment to the free flow of capital and goods. To be sure, this agenda has been implemented with a dose of cronyism that might make Dick Cheney and his old Halliburton pals blush. But Wall Street has applauded the effort (save for its wrathful reaction to the nation's severe financial crisis in 1994 and 1995); the Mexican stock market, 40 percent of whose shares are foreign-owned, has boomed since 1995. Over the same period, job growth has sputtered, and wages still hover at 1993 levels.

        As the tens of millions of Mexicans, mostly poor and working-class, who bitterly oppose Calderón contemplate more of the same, it's worth revisiting the important and largely forgotten story of how crony-inflected neoliberalism destroyed the quality of that iconic traditional staple, the tortilla -- and how, in the process, local-food infrastructure, public health, and rural economies suffered while corporate profits fattened.

        ...

        Bad Wrap
        How Archer Daniels Midland cashes in on Mexico's tortilla woes
        By Tom Philpott
        22 Feb 2007

        Much has been made in the U.S. press about Mexico's "tortilla crisis" -- the recent spike in the price of its definitive corn-based flatbread.

        Media reports tend to focus blame on U.S. ethanol production, which has surged over the past year, causing the global price of corn to double. The situation stoked the food vs. fuel debate, showing that even marginally offsetting gasoline with corn-based ethanol can have dire consequences for eaters -- especially ones on a budget.

        But while our ravenous -- and dubious -- appetite for turning corn into fuel has certainly played a role in the crisis, it's by no means our nation's only involvement in Mexico's tortilla nightmare.

        Indeed, the same company responsible for rigging up the U.S. corn-based ethanol market is also profiting handsomely from soaring tortilla prices. Archer Daniels Midland, the leading U.S. ethanol maker and the world's biggest grain buyer, owns a 27 percent stake in Gruma, Mexico's dominant tortilla maker. ADM also owns a 40 percent share in a joint venture with Gruma to mill and refine wheat -- meaning that when Mexican consumers are forced by high tortilla prices to switch to white bread, Gruma and ADM still win.

        ...

        Deconstructing Dinner is a series of programs put out by a Canadian radio station (though the food system is very much entangled with that of the States) which explores how we ended up where we are and how we ended up with "Cheap Food" to begin with and why it is so cheap (we pay for it in other ways such as subsidies and offloading of costs such as environmental and loss of jobs and high protein foods killed off by the hypoxic dead zones caused by runoff of the petro-chemicals to grow the corn). You can read the information or listen to the shows either online, on the radio via the online connection, on podcasts, MP3s and also via the co-op stations themselves. You can even buy one of the limited edition CDs with the best of the series plus original music and help financially support the program (as you can imagine advertisers would be rather rare).

        Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

        by CSI Bentonville on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 08:18:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And, further, having multiple options, ... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        KiaRioGrl79

        ... including both horse drawn and mechanized agriculture, seems to make sense in terms of not having all our eggs in one basket, even if megacorp farming is a basket that we are well advised to drop as soon as possible.

    •  Well done! (3+ / 0-)

      Based on the diary title, I was expecting something quite different.  Happy to see you step in.

      Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.

      by sxwarren on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 06:09:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ME TOO! :] (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        sxwarren, KiaRioGrl79, BentLiberal

        I was about to do a little bedtime reading and bam, I was then up much longer than I intended and all pumped up only to sleep poorly over the whole idea.

        This almost seems like it's an inside job adopting some of the progressive ideas to then bludgeon us over the head into accepting business as usual.

        Thank you for letting me know. That helps keep me focused. And I'm glad that even if I had missed this (as I apparently did the previous ones posted already) that you would have been here to speak up. You can always come find me too. This is exactly the sort of stuff I want to know about being posted. :)

        Though "Stranded Wind" is now on my hotlist!

        Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

        by CSI Bentonville on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 07:59:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  more progressive please ... (0+ / 0-)

    If progressive means better at math, then I think you may need to be more progressive.

    Had we spent one tenth the price of Bush's adventure in Iraq turning 25,000 miles of our national rail system to electric drive we'd have broken our imported fossil fuel dependency.

    Where do you get this idea from?  Total diesel oil usage used in rail in the US is trivial compared to our oil imports.  

    Also, I think it's absurd to suggest that the US will suffer food shortages because we won't be able to afford the energy and fertilizer inputs.  Please site any sort of numbers to support this.  The energy cost of producing and transporting food is a fairly small fraction of the total cost.   Even if the energy inputs tripled in price, it wouldn't lead to anywhere near a doubling of food costs and I think you must know that food is a relatively small portion of overall income in the US.

    •  The diarist should expand... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      LucyMO

      However, I assume the diarists rail proposals  would also include upgrading and expansion (more and better tracks) in addition to electrification, and that the rail upgrading would also include additional rolling stock and passenger as well as freight service.

      Did you read the link on Light Rail now posted by the diarist before commenting?

      Also, please note that, at least in the Midwest, electrified (and non-electrified) rail has the potential to displace both auto and heavy truck traffic. The latter contributes heavily to destruction of road infrastructure, which by the way is also heavily dependent on oil for its construction and repair. Rail trackage significantly outlasts asphalt pavement and has far cheaper maintenance costs, as does the rolling stock, which can last 3 to 5 times as long as trucks, cars, and diesel buses.

      "Without our playstations, we are a third world nation"-Ani DiFranco

      by NoMoreLies on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 11:51:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  doesn't really matter (0+ / 0-)

        I'm a big fan of more electrified rail.  But there's no way to make any reasonable argument that expanded rail would eliminate oil imports.  It's just nowhere near that size a potential impact.  You could eliminate all trucking (which obviously can't be done) and it still wouldn't eliminate imported oil to the US

        •  what about electrifying all transportation... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          CSI Bentonville

          The electric rail would also provide passenger service and displace a tremendous amount of car and other travel. We can look also to demand reduction such as longer lasting products and 4-day work weeks. Electrifying the transportation sector and/or small amounts of biofuels, ammonia, etc for local deliveries would eliminate 2/3 of our petroleum demand, and therefore eliminate the need to import oil. According to the DOE 2/3 of oil usage in the US is for transportation.

          "Without our playstations, we are a third world nation"-Ani DiFranco

          by NoMoreLies on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 03:02:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  well, sure... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            CSI Bentonville

            If you think we can electrify the whole transportation sector, then we could eliminate oil imports, but the diary said we could do that through investment in train electrification -- which we can't.  

            You will not be able to displace half of all car miles with trains -- you would need to go with electric cars, which is a whole different point.  Better trains are sorely needed, but let's not over-estimate what they can accomplish by themselves.  If we want to reduce our oil usage, car mpg is the elephant in the room.  Indeed, I think that PHEVs may be quite competitive with rail in terms of carbon footprint.

  •  Electrified Railway History (4+ / 0-)

    Edwin Black in his book, Internal Combustion, includes a chapter on the history of electrified rail in the USA, focusing on the Milwaukee Road.  Here's a quote:

    (168)  Sometimes electrified railways seemed to defy the laws of perpetual motion.  For example, when the brakes were applied or the train traveled down a slope, the engine actually returned electricity to the grid.  Regenerative braking and similar power returns helped the engines pay for themselves.  In some mountain ranges, if timed correctly, a heavy downhill train could actually regenerate enough electricity too the grid to power another train passing it uphill.  Thus both trains would travel in a minuet of seemingly energy-free motion.  That might have seemed too violate the laws of physics, but not the rules of General Electric's wondrous workhorses, which were designed to observe this maxim:  It is better to give than receive when it comes to electrical power.  Those engines lasted not for years but for decades.  Their endurance was measured in millions of miles.  They were monumental vehicles that created economic prosperity and environmental balance everywhere they rolled.

    But the magic of the Milwaukee [Road] and a potential coast-to-coast network of similar electrified rail lines were destined to fail.  What happened?  Was it the clean, limitless power of electricity that failed, or was it something else?

    Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at http://solarray.blogspot.com/2006/03/solar-video.html

    by gmoke on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 12:19:57 PM PDT

    •  the maintenance on the system was too expensive.. (0+ / 0-)

      relative to diesel fuel in the early 70s. When petroleum costs were low at that time, the suits decided that tearing out the catenary and selling off the copper and dieselizing the line was better off to the bottom line than retaining the electrified system.

      Again, another loss to short-term profit mindset...

      "Without our playstations, we are a third world nation"-Ani DiFranco

      by NoMoreLies on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 03:05:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Another Explanation (1+ / 0-)

        If I remember Black's argument correctly, the Milwaukee Road got bought up  and sold out again and again, maintenance was deferred until the engines began to fall apart.  I don't recall whether GE was interested in producing new electric engines for the American market or not but that may have been part of the process as well.

        Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at http://solarray.blogspot.com/2006/03/solar-video.html

        by gmoke on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 07:31:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Climate Change and Agriculture (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    NoMoreLies, CSI Bentonville, Scubaval

    Got a mailing from the NE Food and Farming News and found

    New York Farming & Climate Instability
    Wednesday, January 30th, 9:00 am to 12:00 noon
    at the New York State Legislative Office Building, Hearing Room C
    State & Swan Streets, Albany, NY
    A local winter breakfast will be serve

    and

    "What Will We Eat as the Oil Runs Out?" by Richard Heinberg
    The Lady Eve Balfour Lecture, November 22, 2007
    http://www.richardheinberg.com/...

    Hey, eaters!  The smarter farmers are already beginning to plan for what happens after Peak Oil, which, according to the figures I've seen, happened in the summer of 2006.  Don't wake the politicians (except for the Peak Oil Caucus which has been trying to rouse the nation for some time now.)

    Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at http://solarray.blogspot.com/2006/03/solar-video.html

    by gmoke on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 12:30:27 PM PDT

  •  What are the prospects for an HVDC ... (0+ / 0-)

    ... trunk from, say, the Dakotas through Minnesota to Chicago, through Indiana and Ohio to Pennsylvania and thus the main eastern seaboard grids for de-stranding wind?

  •  RE the railroads (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    CSI Bentonville

      Electricfication of the railroads is a fine idea, but....

    1. Railroads in this country moved away from it because diesels and cheap fuel made electricity not as competitive as it was with steam. It's not just the cost of building the system; upkeep figures in too.
    1. Copper prices are rising; building a nationwide web of electrified railways is going to really push that trend.
    1. The railroads are going to be looking for an alternative that plays to one of their big customers: coal. Making synthetic fuel from coal will also be pushed by other big players in the energy biz. The Air Force is already working to certify its aircraft to fly on synthetic fuels because they can do the math as well - and they're already having to cut back flying hours because of rising fuel costs.
    1. We still have lots of coal. For now - and now is as far ahead as too many people are willing to look. Build an electrified rail system, and the pressure will be there to power it with coal.

    That being said, doing something about our rail system is certainly worth the effort; the $15 billion we spend every month on Iraq would do wonders for Amtrak for example. Against that is the decades we've spent moving away from rail (thanks to cheap oil) and the huge shifts in transportation infrastructure that have taken place in that time. Reinvesting in that is going to have to be included in the math.

    "No special skill, no standard attitude, no technology, and no organization - no matter how valuable - can safely replace thought itself."

    by xaxnar on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 04:19:34 AM PDT

    •  You know another consideration... (0+ / 0-)

      and I admit food is my focus more than transportation though I fully support rail and commuter options, bike routes, lanes, and so much more that is essential to good bike support such as bike parking, available showers/lockers for those who bike in (cars are essentially personal moving lockers), and light rail, etc.

      But you mentioned copper and its increased cost. What I've been seeing a lot of is meth heads stealing electrical wiring to sell the metals for scrap. Rural rail would be open to constant theft along those lines I would think.

      I don't know... just something to think about and figure out how to solve so it will work when it's implemented.

      Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

      by CSI Bentonville on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 07:19:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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