Daily Kos

Obama wonks on the trail

Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 07:54:10 PM PDT

Over at Balloon Juice, John Cole makes a substantive but not wholly accurate point that Obama "is not selling himself on [his] policies or positions... I like Obama just fine, but if you think he is gonna make it through a general election doing nothing but 'elevating' you with crap about 'change' and 'hope,' you are fooling yourself."

While I agree that in the past four weeks Obama has relied a bit too much on themes of "change" and "hope," he positively bored audiences throughout 2007 with policy specifics. And so as the meme is developing that Obama is all sizzle and no steak, he has to publicly re-introduce his inner wonk, at least up to a point.

I'm here to help. (Disclaimer: I am not a paid staff member for Obama, but I have given him money.) For those of you who forgot, or never knew to begin with -- go figure, the press rarely reports on the substance of policy speeches -- here's some recent history.

As recently as Dec. 3 in Iowa, Obama proposed a Credit Card Bill of Rights "that would prevent credit card companies from raising interest rates without giving consumers the chance to opt out of the agreement. Obama's plan would ban rate increases on past debt. It would also prevent credit card companies from charging interest on transaction fees." (This would be a very good thing for Obama to talk about right now, IMHO -- and with the economy heading into recession, all the candidates need to talk more about how to address the subprime disaster, the failing dollar, and declining employment.)

In July Obama gave a speech specifying how he would tackle poverty at a fundamental, root level. And so said the Washington Post:

Although Obama offered some of the same proposals as Edwards, such as a transitional jobs program and an expanded earned-income tax credit, he presented a sharply different overall objective: fixing inner-city areas so they become places where families have a shot at prospering, without having to move.

As an example, he cited the Harlem Children's Zone, an initiative that seeks to improve one section of that New York neighborhood with an array of services, including prenatal counseling, early childhood education and free medical services. Obama urged replicating the program in 20 cities, which he estimated would cost a few billion dollars a year. "If poverty is a disease that infects the entire community in the form of unemployment and violence, failing schools and broken homes, then we can't just treat those symptoms in isolation," he said. "We have to heal that entire community."

Obama also got all wonky in front of family farmers in Iowa back in August:

[Obama said], "I’m reminded that the test of leadership isn’t what you say, it’s what you do. Voting records matter... I’ve always stood for tougher environmental regulations and local control over whether CAFOs can be built in your neighborhoods and that’s why we need to limit EQIP funding to giant CAFOs so they are forced to pay for their own pollution. And that’s what I’ll do as President."...  In addition to talking about rural values and CAFOs, Obama also spoke about the importance of country-of-origin labeling (COOL), payment limitations, renewable energy, and labeling foods that have been genetically modified. Each of these issues are important to a significant portion of the audience present and the thousands of family farmers and activists that work on food and progressive agricultural issues across the state.

Oh, and he talked policy detail during debates, too, and the Iowa Independent noted back in August that "Obama pulled points for talking about capping subsidies to large ag-business to help the family farm. His was the most specific agriculture answer" among all the candidates that night.

There are plenty of other examples. People have rightly pointed out the damned-if-she-does, damned-if-she-don't aspect of Clinton's emotional range. But the same dynamic is in play with Obama: if he talks substantive details, people tune out, and then claim he never talks substantive details. Maddening, I tell you...

But I agree it's Obama's responsibility, as well as ours, to fix this perception. Spread the word!

Tags: Obama, policy, agriculture, poverty (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 28 comments

  •  Tip Jar, and one more point (20+ / 0-)

    I avoid bagging on or praising any other candidate in this diary. My point here is to illustrate how Obama has indeed been substantive on policy and that he needs to remind people just how substantive he is.

    •  it's perception of youth (0+ / 0-)

      that hurts him. the fact that he's running against older folks in a time of war. all the other presidents who run during such times were hurt by that.

      •  JFK and the cold war? (0+ / 0-)

        I agree that Obama may have an age issue though...but a slightly different twist.

        I think his support the 18-30 y/o block actually hurts his chances in the primaries, and will make him work harder in the general (if he's the nominee)...this isn't a block that is known for showing up HUGE on election day/primary day. Maybe that will be different this time around...but custom says it won't

        General and Supreme Commander of the 82nd Chairborne: I've killed people for less!

        by patsprouseyo on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:08:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  No Offense meant here (0+ / 0-)

      But your examples aren't really all that wonky or substantive in defense of Obama.

      This is actually the main sticking point for me getting behind Obama opposed to JE or HRC. He just doesn't say ANYTHING besides "feel good" stuff.

      The first few times I listened to him I would say "Man! he is an amazing public speaker...I really like this guy" But the MORE I listen to Obama the more I realize he actually says next to nothing, and when I realized that my opinion of his ability as an orator began to decline too.

      I do want to hear some details from Obama, especially if he is going to be the Nominee. But I seriously think for him to win the nomination, he (more than HRC or JE) needs to shake up his campaign...you can only pull Oprah out of a hat once, and his "underdog" status is no more...

      General and Supreme Commander of the 82nd Chairborne: I've killed people for less!

      by patsprouseyo on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:01:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No offense taken, but (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vernonbc

        You don't think that talking about CAFOs and EQIP funding and prenatal counseling isn't wonky? I mean, it's a far cry from playing the al Qaeda card or saying, "Hey! I ran a business!"

        Now, of course Obama's trying to be uplifting. It's part and parcel with who he is. It's also a great message. But it's strange to me that of the examples I've given here, you think they're "next to nothing."

        Oh, and I purposefully didn't mention his proposals on health care and emissions reductions because I figured most people here would know about them, and because they are closely aligned with the other candidates. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you think the other candidates' health care and emissions reductions plans are "next to nothing," too. (I'm being rhetorical; I trust you don't actually think that. If so, please acknowledge Obama's plan, too.)

        •  No no (0+ / 0-)

          Look, anyone can go out on the stump and recite a few alphabet NGO names or points or progress that they feel can be used as examples on a national level...thats not Wonky...GWB did that all the time (granted, he didn't know WTF he was talking about).

          I think we're talking about Obama's stump stuff here and not his website (everyones website has policy position articles). But lets contrast BO with HRC on the stump; she's passing the microphone around answering questions, he's being introduced, givinging a non-specific arousing speech, and shaking hands out the door. JE...is a bit of both...I think if we're drawing a stump/campaign spectrum here, BO is on the non-wonky side, HRC is on the wonky side and JE fluctuates between the two.  As for his health plan, one of the major criticism at the time he released his plan was that it was more like a draft, not complete, not hashed out...and that sorta leads back to the whole lack of specificity issue.

          This is by no means a slam on BO, its just the gear or approach his campaign has chosen to take at this juncture. Fair enough...but the criticism that he does not provide enough (or any) specifics is very real.

          As for "Next to Nothing," of course, its a cliche and an overstatement I chose to magnify a truth. Look, he's like one of the people that you come to with an issue, and you talk with them for 10-20 minutes and leave feeling much better, but about 5 or 10 minutes later you realize that nothing changed, they didn't commit to anything, and whatever the issues are...they are just the same. That is what his current approach is like.

          BO is saying "I have ideas that will help bring about change, and because I have this idea, you should have hope." GREAT! I say...now Barack, lets get down to details, what am I hoping for besides change, and what exactly are those ideas...I want to know! Maybe the ideas aren't that great or realistic, maybe his idea of change doesn't really line up with mine...or maybe we're two peas in a pod. BUT, one thing I know about Washington is that you can't easily enact change on your own...BO has to convince a majority of Congress...50 governors...50 state legislatures...etc to buy into his ideas...depending on what kind of change we're talking about, this may just be empty rhetoric, or naivety that leads to "Cowboy" governing...

          So like I said, I have a lot of unanswered questions for BO. And I want his answers...

          General and Supreme Commander of the 82nd Chairborne: I've killed people for less!

          by patsprouseyo on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:53:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You emphasize my point, actually (0+ / 0-)

            I agree that he needs to publicly re-introduce his inner wonk and talk more about about specifics, as he did previously.

            As for convincing a majority of Congress, again, I agree...  And I think he's uniquely able to achieve this, if anyone can.  Please see this Washington Post column on how hard he fought for justice, and how successful he was in bringing entrenched opposition into his camp.

      •  You don't get elected president by giving details (0+ / 0-)

        about what you plan to do, you get elected president by spouting a bunch of feel good platitudes.  That's how the game is played whether you like it or not.  I for one have great confidence in an Obama presidency because not only did he oppose the war when it mattered (i.e. before it began) but the authoritative National Journal has ranked his lifetime voting record as the most progressive of anyone running for president and his Illinois record is even more progressive still.  

  •  its a dilemma - sure, but some can (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    trivium

    pull off the balancing act well: Bill Clinton was amazing at it, John Kerry...not so much.

  •  Bull the guy's boring (0+ / 0-)

    and he has never articulated any real change. He's good on pomp and circumstance though.

    "I think we can all agree, the past is history", George W. Bush, worst ever Orator and POTUS.

    by comstockgrants on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:15:22 PM PDT

    •  Articulating real change (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bawbie, jorndorff, trivium

      I think that proposing to use the Harlem Children's Zone as a nationwide model represents real change, rather than "treat[ing] those symptoms in isolation," as so many programs do.

      The way he fought for and passed legislation on videotaping police interrogations also demonstrates how he has actually implemented real change. It's a unique and effective way to bring about true justice.

      •  I agree with your diary sakitume. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        sakitume

        And I agree that including a spiel about initiatives like the Children's Zone is a good example of how he can say a lot without saying too much, if that makes any sense.  He needn't get too professorial and wonky but a few specifics like this might give some people a different impression.

        Those of us that follow the primaries more closely than the general electorate know he has a lot of substance and excellent ideas and plans but at this point, I think he needs to communicate a few of them.  He'd still have lots of time for that wonderful soaring oratory too.

        He's not an African American candidate, he's and American candidate. - Jean Weiss on CNN

        by vernonbc on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:34:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  john cole - what a pathetic statement. (0+ / 0-)

    "I like Obama just fine, but if you think he is gonna make it through a general election doing nothing but 'elevating' you with crap about 'change' and 'hope,' you are fooling yourself."

    hahahaha.  it boggles the mind.  i mean, it's just so ... what's the word?  pathetic.  i wish it were weightier for this sentiment.

    jesus.  is anyone on the left glad that someone is TRYING to elevate, change and give hope, and actually succeeding?

    i think the bitter old school of the democratic DLC establishment should go have a weekend bitching party somewhere deep in the adirondacks, so far they can't find their way out.  they'll eat each other in no time, with no qualms - sparing us, finally.  i mean, really.  to those hacks - shut the fuck up already about how uninspiring you are, by way of - and in juxtaposition to - criticizing obama's ability to do what you couldn't if your life depended on it.

    i never thought i'd see the day that a popular democratic candidate would be treated like this.  oh, wait!  nevermind, i recall howard dean well enough.  john kerry, instead?  PATHETIC.  the same DLC knuckle-draggers are in charge now as in 2004.. but there's enough momentum this time for the base to make a difference.  i hope we do.

    with every respect to the diarist, and i mean it sincerely, cole's criticism isn't worthy of response.  obama's positions are very well stated, as are all of their positions (with the exception, perhaps, of hrc's, which mirror the base of the democratic party but little, and which she has every reason to hide at all costs).

    if hrc thinks that the dual strategy of both deflecting criticism by portraying herself as a victim and attacking obama for being too inspirational, that will really take the cake.  and if the democratic party goes for it, i will change my party in a fucking heartbeat.  to what?  who knows, and who cares.  to "none of the above."  or as i've always planned to do, write in kucinich, the only candidate who actually has the balls to represent what's right for the right reason.  i'd definitely vote for obama in the general - or for edwards - but never, ever, for this negative, cronyist, corporatist, elitist, sham that's infiltrated the democratic party.  here is some ugly shit, and it needs to be treated as such.  

    and as for obama - i hope he treats this for the ridiculousness it is. my advice to him, if i may be so bold - stay authentic - don't change a thing.  don't give in one inch.  don't listen to the noise.  believe in us, and we will stay with you.

    Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

    by jj24 on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:53:28 PM PDT

    •  Just one piece of the pie (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vernonbc

      John Cole's statement is just one piece of a harsh pie. My diary is less about his particular post (even if it did spur me to write it) than about the long-festering but still-emerging meme -- one pushed by the Clinton team in particular -- that Obama has no substance.

      A lot of people buy into this, but it's simply not true.  

      As for staying authentic, Obama has always been authentic, and his record backs up his rhetoric. And look at the way he pushes the Harlem Children's Zone as a model -- it's a perfect marriage of wonkish policy with the uplifting theme of healing a community.  Without, I might add, false hope.

      A lot of people, unfortunately, see him as a well-intentioned naif. He, and we, need to correct that impression.

      •  i've watched obama deflect this kind of crap by (0+ / 0-)

        dismissing it.  acknowledging that it's untrue, and dismissing it.  there's no point in chasing ones' tail because of a lie.  just expose the lie for what it is - politically calculated bullshit - and keep going.

        you think obama's going to lose support because he's too inspiring?  lol.  i don't think so, but think about it - that's the only weapon they have, is to attack his good points as negative.  so rovian, makes you wonder where he's at.  in fact, they're whole fucking campaign has been rovian.  

        red rover red rover, let karl rove come over!!

        Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

        by jj24 on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:17:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Too inspiring? Hardly (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Ericwmr, vernonbc

          Really, if you don't think Obama has a PR problem on the false notion that he's all hat no cattle -- a meme pushed very hard by the Clinton campaign -- then you're blind to what just might sink him.

          John Kerry ignored/dismissed the Swift Boat smear to our utter regret. Obama can't make the same mistake.

          I'm not saying he needs to abandon his themes or bore people to death. And we all know that the way he inspires people is simply astonishing -- I've never seen or felt anything like it. I am, however, saying he can't just dismiss the criticism, no matter how untrue, and he needs to correct the impression.

          See his quote above on the Harlem Children's Zone for a way he can have his lunch and eat it, too: substantive details concluded with a rousing moral statement on how we can help heal an entire community.

          •  no, no, no. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Ericwmr

            john kerry was not the candidate we wanted.

            john kerry couldn't defend his way out of a paper sack, yet that's ALL HE DID the ENTIRE CAMPAIGN, complete with the neverending sentence which bored us ALL TO DEATH while he was failing to make his case.

            he NEVER ran - he reacted, and gave up as soon as he could, even in the face of obvious fraud.

            i take obama as a proactor, and i hope to hell i'm right.  so far, he's done a good job taking on the heat.  as i said - acknowledge it, get in front of it - and dismiss it as the bullshit it is.  he's running on the idea of reuniting this country, restoring its principles, and ending the war.  that's enough for now, for all of us.  i say it's enough to win.  

            Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

            by jj24 on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:40:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Remember Bush.. (0+ / 0-)

            Not that I'm comparing Obama's intellect/potential to Bush by any stretch, but Bush opponents on both sides made this mistake:  they made the "empty suit" argument so loud and prominent that all Bush had to do was show up for a debate or speech without pooping himself to win the "expectations" bar.

            I do agree that, from an outsider perspective, it seems like time for the Obama camp to break out a few more specifics in the talking points, but if the current criticism continues, all he has to do is up the ante slightly in this next debate and the message turns to just how much he's been underestimated and derided for "hope."

      •  but just to say - (0+ / 0-)

        i am also inspired by your desire to show some of his great ideas.  that's wonderful - and you know, keep it up.  that's the good thing about obama, and another losing point for hrc - we know her and what she's done; we don't know him so much, but as we get to know him, he has good ideas.  and good ways of presenting his ideas.  and you know when he talks about creating a united america, he can do it.

        hillary - she can't even unite the party, and her ACE IN THE HOLE is the ability to polarize the entire country.  she's got nothing but selfish desire going for her.  and, of course, her gender - as far as that goes, for a woman like me, she's NOT GOOD ENOUGH to hold the title of first woman president.  

        did you see how excited the entire country was to be rid of her?  and more importantly, how energized we all were from the infusion of hope barack obama gave us in iowa?????

        and then, new hampshire.  the primary with the fishy results.  i just can't take another 4 years of this fascist shit... i'm not kidding.  i just can't.

        Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

        by jj24 on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:25:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Obama has done some amazing things (0+ / 0-)

          And he has a great way of looking at the world. I hope the rest of the nation can get to know his record.

        •  Agreed with all but one tiny detail (0+ / 0-)

          ...As a fellow Obama supporter and without the least bit of personal conflict in this, I personally don't see any positive to come from pushing the rigged NH idea.  There have been a few well documented diaries to debunk this, and there's a particulary detailed one on the FP at the moment.  

          I completely understand the reasons for suspicion and basically agree that the Clinton's will stoop to damn near any low, but the evidence just doesn't add up here. That said, if the polling continues to be so F'd up to Hillary's favor through Nevada and SC, I'll be more than happy to look at eating those words.

          •  we are ALL in danger when (0+ / 0-)

            exit polls vary significantly from voting results and no one questions it.

            that happened in 2004 in ohio, and it was later found to be frought with fraud.

            this is the purpose of exit polling.  are you really content to throw out the reliability of it, one of our democratic (small d) safeguards against fraud because you don't like the way it appears?

            i'm interested in why the difference between exit polling and the result.  i'm interested to see how closely all of the other candidates came to their projected results.  i'm interested to see exactly how the independent vote went, and i'm interested to see exactly which counties were the most disparate.

            i'm not sold that a bunch of old ladies got out because it was such a nice day to vote for HRC, and then they all lied about it when they exited the polling stations.  that is as much fiction as one can really bear.

            so - well - when or if i become an "operative" i'll be really careful to not divulge "unsightly" thoughts - until then, FUCK THAT.  i am a voter, and voter integrity is something i care and worry about quite a bit.  and that opinion counts - for one.

            tell you what - i won't tell you what to say, and you don't tell me what i should say.  and we'll have mutual respect as individuals with ideas.  how about that.

            Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

            by jj24 on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:35:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  The mistaken assumption (0+ / 0-)

    ...is that the exact same appeals work for the same audience.  The assumption that Barack Obama wins or loses this thing by wonkish policy analysis at every stop is simply foolish. Do you make the same speech to an outdoor rally of 20 thousand that you make on the floor of the Senate or at a CSPAN convention?  This was a major problem for Bradley and Gore in 2000, and was Kerry's problem until all but the end of 2004.  

    Given the fact that Hillary may be getting somewhere with the "talk vs. action" frame, I'll be pleased but not the least bit surprised if we come out of this next debate and week with more emphasis on issues than many expected out of Obama.

    While it may be frustrating to some, trying to keep the contest on what is an undoubtedly favorable playing field is/was perhaps a smart move in strategic terms.  So long as the emphasis remains on "inspiration" and "likability,"  Obama has the upper hand without  having to risk alienating people who might disagree with subpoint B, caveat 3 of a particular policy. Once it becomes clear to the Obama camp that its their ideal time to shift into more detail, they'll make that move.  In the meantime, everyone who paints him as an empty suit and snidely mistakes "hope" the noun with "hope" the verb only helps to lower the bar he has to hop over.  

    Turning the focus to specific details too early only invites more scrutiny from press and opponents on both sides of the aisle. Of course ideas and policy specifics matter, but they may not be the only or most important factor in winning an opportunity to put the ideas into practice.

    In the language of "all those damn kids" who have been told to get off their asses and vote ever since the late 60's: "don't hate the player, hate the game."

    •  You make a good point (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ericwmr, vernonbc

      This is part of the challenge. You can't get too wonky in front of 20,000 people.  So how and when and where does Obama turn back the charges of "false hope"?

      My point, particularly given the results in New Hampshire, is that "inspiration" and "likability" are not the only dynamics here, and he can and should address the issues of experience.

      He does, after all, have more elected office experience than either of the two remaining candidates. And he has a great record to run on.

      Big themes should remain the emphasis, but fleshing them out with specific examples -- e.g. "I sponsored and passed legislation that extended health care for 150,000 people in Illinois" -- would be very helpful.

      •  should, can, and believe he will... (0+ / 0-)

        I made the Bush comparison above, at least as that applies to how he played the "empty suit" arguments like a fiddle.  By the time Gore and Kerry surrogates got done yelling "all hat, no cattle" all Dubya had to do was show up to a debate or speech and not drool in order to win the "spin"

        ...which, fair or not, is a large part of the reality.

        I'll be DAMN surprised if the media going into the Nevada caucus isn't "...and they called hope false and empty."

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