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It's time for us to set a narrative. Jimmy Carter has got it started, now it's our job to push push push!!!

Carter told reporters on a stopover in Brussels that "profligate spending," massive borrowing and dramatic tax cuts since President George W. Bush took office in 2001 were behind the market turmoil and economic crisis.

Barack Obama is being too nice. He says this crisis is the final verdict on a failed economic policy of trickle down economics. It's more than that, it's a final verdict on having an ignorant and nonintellectualist President. One who avoids questions during debate, and sells himself/herself on personality, cocksuredness and Tax Cutting!

more ranting after the fold (possible swear words, stay tuned)

Update: Weve got to get in this narrative that Inflation is a secret tax. Republicans tax you every day. Republican economics have led to economic collapse. Though your explicit tax is lower, you are implicitly taxed every day @ the grociery store, at the gas pump, at your job. A healthy economy is a tax rebate. Each day of deficit is another day in which China and Saudi Arabia own more of our country. Each day is higher prices.

This financial crisis is why we must have Barack Obama as president. It should also be an opportunity to slam George Bush for being woefully unable to be President. His debate performance proved that he didn't understand specifics, and didn't care about them. This cocksure softskull demanded his wars and his tax cuts- and here we are. Deeply in debt, economy slowing down, prices rising. That's stagflation folks. Is that patriotic? Not paying your debts, and living beyond your means? Or is it patriotic; to settle up, and own your responsibilities. One candidate wants us to fix the checkbook, the other guy and gal are selling us this same lie; that we can cut taxes, and police the world. That we are an exceptional nation....  
Now another person completely ignorant and dismissive of specifics, has picked a VP who is both ignorant of specifics of nat'l and foreign policy, and dangerously cocksure. This person RALLIES against taxes, and RALLIES for WARS. Come on. This should be Presidential Politics 101; Georgie, Sarah, Johnnie Boy, Dick if you want your wars.. YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM. If you want your tax cuts, you have to cut SPENDING. And shut the fuck up about Earmarks. Earmarks are 18B a year. We paid $235 Billion dollars on Interest on the Nat'l Debt last year. Republican created interest. At least with earmarks we get stuff.

I keep hearing this story about homeowners that lived beyond their means. Their inability to balance their checkbook is causing them to lose their home. They wanted a lot of crap, and charged it to their credit card. They had a valuable house, so they financed more spending against their house value. Yes. This is the story of George Bush and his White House. As they begin to move out of their house, their debtors are begining to collect their assets. Foreign interests, are diversifying as they realize that the dollars they have been collecting are losing value. I'm not saying we should become more protectionist, I'm just trying to point out what happens when you cut taxes, and you have a Neanderthal mindset that, "Me want Less Taxes."

Let's see;

Anheuser Busch- sold to InBev.
Chrysler sold to Daimler Benz AG
Lucent sold to Alcatel SA France
PaineWebber sold to UBS
Ernst&Young sold to Cap Gemini SA France
GE Plastics sold to SABIC Saudi Arabia
USA Networks sold to Vivendi
Ralston Purina sold to Nestle (Switz.)
TransAmerica corp sold to Aegon NV (Nether)
Delta Airlines sold to (unknown)
Pillsbury Co sold to Grand Metro (UK)
Miller Brewing sold to South Africa Brewing
Northwest Airlines sold to (unknown)
Farmers Group Insurance sold to (UK)
TexasGulf Inc sold to (France)
United Defense Industries (France)
IBM PC division sold to Lenovo (China)

Buildings bought by foreign interests:
Chrysler building bought by Abu Dhabi
NY Times building bought by Israeli

Foreign Investors Pile Up More Pieces of Americana

Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and other gulf countries rich with oil revenue have taken advantage of falling prices to invest in real estate and financial companies around the world. Middle Eastern investors have spent $1.8 billion this year on American commercial property, according to Real Capital Analytics, a New York property research firm.

Republicans love to cite the GDP and the Dow Jones as indicators that our economy is doing good. Uhm. Hello. Foreigners own a substantial share of 'our' stock market. And a good chunk of GDP is sent overseas in profits. We need a middle class American indicator. Notice that the CPI (consumer price index) which is our indicator of inflation, does not include Gas or Food prices. That's all we buy anymore!!!!!

How can the so called Patriotic party support borrowing money, and selling off our national assets to foreigners, to fight a nonessential foreign war?? And the process causes our economy to crater. They cite the Boston Tea Party as this country having a great history of not liking taxes. (See Bill Maher last night) Uhm. Hello. That was taxation without representation. There's a difference. Every time these idiots say ACORN, we have to say Inflation, Every time they say Barney Frank, we have to say Gramm, and Greenspan. Even if we believed their BS about minorities, poor people and immigrants buying houses they couldn't afford. It was the high gas and food prices, and the declining wages in a declining economy that AIDED in their not being able to pay their mortgages. Rant over, god bless.

Originally posted to CornSyrupAwareness on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 11:49 AM PDT.


Is paying taxes Patriotic?

95%65 votes
4%3 votes

| 68 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  And sending profits and jobs offshore is ... NOT. (5+ / 0-)

    We need a new definition of treason in this country.

  •  Taxes build up our country (6+ / 0-)

    Paying your taxes is your duty....its putting your share into the national collection plate.

    Now, that doesn't mean that thinking taxes should be lower is unpatriotic...your patriotic duty is to pay whatever taxes the nation decides you should, through electing legislators to set the tax rate. That's Republican Democracy. Whether the tax rate is 1% or 100%, its your duty to pay it

    Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happy Hour

    by PerryX on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 11:53:31 AM PDT

  •  Republicans confuse freedom with freeloading (10+ / 0-)

    McCain would abolish Social Security, while he collects it.

    They don't pull their load.

    And it's not just taxes: Witness Cheney and the other yellow elephants who "had other priorities" when it was time to serve in the military.

    •  New campaign: let's stop- namecalling. (4+ / 0-)

      I completely agree that paying taxers is patriotic - but then I am in  my mid-sixties and raised in a different (patriotic) era.  Also one where civility was a  cherished value.

      But I would like to call on all of us to rein in the hatefulness.  Understanding everyone is frustrated, our campaign is about uniting the people, not dividing them, and remember we need them to work with us when this is all over.

      Paying taxes is patriotic.  I was so thrilled when Joe Biden said that.
      Civility is patriotic.  It gives us room to use our forebrain instead of our reptilian brainstem.

      •  I can't agree with you (0+ / 0-)

        I like the spirit of what you say. But practically it's important to be able to call a warmonger- chickenhawk scum- if he caused the deaths of thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

        Kos talks dramatically about this in the subsection of his book called "Don't bring a spork to a gunfight"

        This is perhaps the key difference between traditional liberals and movement progressives. The former believe that politics is a high-minded debate about ideas, the latter have seen movement conservatives use every tool at their disposal to steal the power and cling to it. The problem is, politics matter, and so does the winner of elections. You can't bring a spork to a gunfight, because like Florida 2000, we lose every time. And while some may feel proud their personal ethics weren't compromised and that we 'took the high road' through the recount battle, How many thousands of soldiers and Iraqis wish that Democrats fought a little harder for Gore's victory?...[A]s long as we operate within legal boundaries, all's fair in politics. The stakes matter too much to unilaterally disarm

        •  namecalling is not helpful (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          samddobermann, 1918

          If you want to write a diary denouncing "chickenhawks" with some substance and heft to your arguments, using your capacity to reason, I will not call that namecalling.

          If you just yell out "chickenhawk scum," it's no different than the wingnuts yelling out "terrorist," etc. at a rallly.  It is not meant to engage me in thinking, or in examining my position on anything, it is meant to engage me in hating.

          Hating is not what this campaign is about.

          •  I don't feel like I have to (0+ / 0-)

            I appreciate your concern. But it should be obvious to anyone who's had their eyes open for the last 8 years what chickenhawks have done. I made a video about it-


            So did Michael Moore called Farenheit 9/11.

            If I could take back my comment, I would because it's got you focused on the wrong part of my diary. Here's the other thing you missed. THEY ARE chickenhawks- Cheney Bush - pro war- never served. WE ARENT terrorists. There's no connection between the evil lies that they spew and my anger based in truth.

            •  One more thing (0+ / 0-)

              I was responding to "Republicans confuse freedom with freeloading" That's where the substantive chicken hawk remarks were- that I responded to in my short angry comment title.

              Barack is right, we are bitter. And I'm not going to hush up for personal ethical reasons. I'm not denouncing your civil ways, what's good for you, is fine by me.

  •  especially when there is a war. (4+ / 0-)

    to pay for "war", we need to pay more.  

  •  Cenk Uygar has a great video (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Korry, revgerry, jhop7

    If you have twenty minutes check it out. He talks to this Log Cabin Republican. (Gay Republican) Which seems to be an oxymoron.

    So anyway, he boils this guy's arguments down to... "Democrats want government to do everything"

    and that "Republicans want to pay less taxes"

    Cenk rightfully points out that Democrats dont want gov't to do everything. Just certain things, that are wildly popular- like Medicare and Social Security.

    And the argument about Republicans want to pay less taxes is absolutely INSANE- unless you discuss where taxes are now, and where they would eventually be appropriate. Republicans wont admit that there is an appropriate tax level, because then they are forced to agree that there is a level where cutting taxes is bad.

  •  Great point! And Obama's tax plan (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    revgerry, CornSyrupAwareness

    will finally give substantial money back to the workers who build and sustain America while asking more of those who make the most and can afford it many times over.  And we're still at war!  Taking money from the government is de facto not supporting the troops.

    "In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'. " -Bill Murray as Carl Spackler

    by jhop7 on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 12:00:34 PM PDT

  •  Paying taxes=obeying the law. (3+ / 0-)

    Paying taxes is a responsibility of citizenship, but I don't think you're ever going to make it a point of pride. It's not a winning issue...what we need to say is that everyone needs to pay his or her fair share, and those who benefit the most from the American economy need to start shouldering their fair share. (And from the investment bankers who got us into this mess, I think their fair share should be 100% of what they paid themselves...)

    "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

    by Alice in Florida on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 12:02:34 PM PDT

    •  Doesn't have to be a winning issue, but... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      revgerry, pepper mint

      the relentless drumbeat from Republicans that taxes are evil, or "that's your money", or I'll cut your taxes—

      That perpetual wave of propaganda is absolutely corrosive to citizenship; and it has a great deal to do with our bankrupt nation and global economy.

  •  economy and democrats (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    revgerry, ThirtyFiveUp

    tell people that the economy fares much better under democrat rule..this is a fact that republicans don't like to talk about...

  •  My dad always said, (3+ / 0-)

    If you owe lots of taxes, that means you had a really good year.
    My family, for 4 generations that I can verify, has looked upon paying taxes as a way to show they were being productive, making a good living.
    Until my generation, it was pretty fair.  Not so much now.

    Cowards die many times before their deaths... Shakespeare, Julius Ceasar, II, 2

    by on the cusp on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 12:04:02 PM PDT

  •  This is just critical. (6+ / 0-)

    Our taxes pay to educate our children, to build our bridges, roads and railroads, to search for cures to lethal diseases, to defend our country and to research the fundamentals of the universe.

    Our taxes go to make America, and our world, a much better place to live.

    Personal spending on consumption?
    Meh. That goes for a video game, or a slightly spiffier car, or a six pack of beer. Might entertain me for a few days or a couple of years, but make the world a better place? Not so much.

    Once more, it's seeing the world as something worth investing in; as something other than a zero-sum game where he who dies with the most toys wins.

  •  hell yes! (5+ / 0-)

    This issue makes me so angry!  Taxes are the price we pay for living in civilization, and it drives me crazy when people who benefit from this don't acknowledge it.  As a liberal, I would gladly pay higher taxes to fund universal healthcare, or expanded Medicaid coverage.  But even if you don't believe in more healthcare, you still get to drive on paved roads, you get your snow ploughed, your trash picked up, a thousand other services that keep society running smoothly.  

  •  If (4+ / 0-)

    If supporting our troops is patriotic, then it should be obvious that paying the taxes that pays the body armor, the salaries etc for our soldiers is also patriotic.

    This should not be all that difficult to understand...

  •  When we pay taxes we are: (4+ / 0-)

    Making sure that the bridges and roads people use on foot, bicycle, in cars, buses, and trains are safe;
    Maintaining the strength and quality of our armed forces and the equipment they need;
    Providing for the thorough inspection of our food supply to make sure it is safe (free of e-coli and salmonella);
    Monitoring the safety of our nation’s transportation system for people and freight;
    Maintaining the safety of our nation’s communication system;
    Securing our borders;
    Maintaining our national park system;
    Providing support for the most vulnerable in our society;
    Making sure our nation’s water supply is safe;
    Helping people who are caught in a catastrophe, whether natural (Katrina, Ike, tornadoes and earthquakes) or man-made (stock market crash)
    Verifying that medicines we use are both safe and effective;
    Supporting research vital to our nation’s economic and geopolitical security;
    Monitoring the quality of the air we breathe;
    Providing quality education to future generations of Americans;
    Making sure our homes are safe;
    Providing for law enforcement and a legal system as well as fire protection;
    among other things.

    Paying taxes is being a responsible member of a community.  I don't want to live on an island by myself or on some mountain all alone; I want to live among other Americans who share my values as members of our American community.  We may disagree on many points, but I would hope we would all agree on at least this much:  Paying taxes is the price of living in civilization.

  •  Just quote a great Justice (6+ / 0-)

    I like paying taxes - with them I buy civilization.

    Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

  •  Palin wants us to fight war (3+ / 0-)

    but she doesn't think its patriotic to pay taxes?

    She must think putting it on the grandkids' credit cards is patriotic.

    I'm confused.

    This seems like a fair question for the media to demand a little clarification.

    "Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." - Oscar Wilde

    by greendem on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 12:17:18 PM PDT

  •  I heart taxes (3+ / 0-)

    But I'm a Democrat, so you might have expected that. Heh.

    Seriously though, what are taxes anyhow? Done right, they are an alternate way of paying for things we need.

    Some of the things we need (defense, courts, roads, schools, health care etc) are difficult or impossible to set up and pay for as individuals. That's why we set them up collectively and pay for them through taxes.

    Done right, taxes are an extremely cost-efficient way to spend our money. The key is in that phrase, "done right".

    Republican ideology insists that the government can't do it right. And if you watch how they govern when they are in power, you can see why they would think that.

    The other pillar of Republicanism is a childish belief that we don't need the things that taxes pay for. This belief is simply false, in critical ways, as the current state of our country attests.

    As Democrats, it's our responsibility to make sure that the collecting and spending of taxes is done right. We're the adults, so it's up to us. There is no one else to do it.

  •  With two stolen elections and (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pris from LA

    a congress who keeps throwing the Constitution under the bus, I feel like I'm being taxed without representation.  

    And the cronies who steal from the coffers are offshoring their businesses to AVOID taxes.

    Whatever you pay, they'll steal, "lose" through inaccountability (like in Iraq or Pentagon black budgets), or spend on something like a war that you totally disagree with.

    I'm beginning to think the opposite about "patriotism" and "taxes"...

  •  And what is the converse? (0+ / 0-)

    Could it be that NOT paying taxes is patriotic?

    Oh, the proof is the flag lapel pin.

    Actually, it has been estimated that if the criminal class paid tax on their income, it would be sweet for the rest of us.

  •  This is why we lose (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    An election is not the time to try to change people's philosophy. Dems should have been doing that before. The word "taxes" is visceral, the easiest way to turn off a voter.

    Saying "taxes are patriotic" is a political suicide pact.

    Tell people. Dems will lower your taxes while making the rich pay their fair share.

    We need votes, not philosophers!

    Don't you think John McCain looks tired?

    by MakeChessNotWar on Sat Oct 11, 2008 at 12:59:38 PM PDT

    •  Saying Dems will raise taxes is suicide (0+ / 0-)

      and the whole MSM is repeating it. Maybe I picked the wrong title/poll. The point I was trying to make is that the tax cutting/war spending is causing our country to be sold out from under us, and our prices to shoot the roof.

      We need to reframe the debate- any idears?

      Your one about making the "rich" pay their share doesn't sell. People know it's usually the "rich" that are employers. Employers get tax'd and they will pass it down.

      Obviously Taxes are Patriotic is not a good slogan, glad you posted that. Let's brainstorm for one that works. I have previously suggested:

      1. Inflation is a secret tax, or
      1. Republicans tax your future.
  •  Gracious! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    How on earth do we pay for our military if not for taxes?  A thousand points of light? Faith based programs?!  Of course, it's patriotic.  I suppose one could live in some remote corner of the world and not pay taxes but they're on their own when they need protection, such as: police, fire, clean water, decent food, medicine etc.  This argument of thiers always fries me.  When Cindy McCain was getting chills through her body about a spending bill she wanted that Barack didn't support (and yes we all know McCain didn't support a similar one for different reasons), where did she think the money would come from?  Santa?

    •  Exactly! Bingo! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pris from LA, BeaRational

      We need to talk every single day from here on out about INFLATION. Inflation is the secret tax. The Reps at the Treasury stopped releasing the number of dollars that they printed in Feb 2006. It had been released every month since 1959. That's because they wanted to spend, and Santa was the printing presses.

      Cutting taxes and increasing spending is-

      Borrow and Spend (on a friend) your grandkids pay it in the end.

      I'd much rather have Tax and Spend. Own your own country, independ (ent)

  •  Joe sets Sarah straight on the tax issue (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Joe Biden Thursday night told Sarah Palin not to lecture him on patriotism, after weeks of attacks mocking him for his statement the wealthy should be patriotic and pay higher taxes because not enough has been asked of them.

    "Sarah Palin had great fun saying Joe Biden thinks paying taxes is patriotic. Well, let me tell you what Joe Biden thinks," the Delaware senator said at an outdoor rally. "Joe Biden thinks that anybody who takes millions of dollars offshore to avoid paying their fair share is unpatriotic."

    "That is not patriotic and it will stop, it will stop in an Obama-Biden administration! Enough! I've had it up to here! Don't lecture me on patriotism," shouted Biden, getting drowned out by the applause of his supporters. "I'm dead tired of being taken advantage of. I'm getting tired of it."

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