OK: Let's get a grip re: Wurzelbacher & Keating

Just like in the days after Sarah Palin was picked for VP, there's a lot of speculation about this "Joe the Plumber" character. I think some of the speculation has been verified- the fact that he's got a tax lien, and he's not licensed as a plumber. But I've seen a lot of speculation about his possible ties to Robert Wurzelbacher, the son-on-law of Charles Keating of the Keating 5 scandal.

Move on. Nothing is there.

Robert M. Wurzelbacher, son-in-law of Keating, was 37 years old in 1991 when federal charges were filed against Keating. It appears that he has addresses in Phoenix and Coronado, CA.

The Robert M. Wurzelbacher of Milford, OH, a heavy donor to GOP candidates, is 83 years old and retired. They're not the same person.

Digging to see if this guy is a plant or a hypocrite is a good idea. But I think it's equally important to know the link before idle speculation.

•  Tip jar

  by ttujoe on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:56:44 AM PST

  •  Thank you...

    ...for helping keep us reality-based.

    by GreenCA on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:06:51 AM PST

  •  Amen n/t

    by BarbinMD on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:10:10 AM PST

  •  Thank you!

    Now if we can just get all the diarists running with this to delete ...

    by jrooth on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:14:21 AM PST

  •  Robert M. Wurzelbacher, Jr.

    The son-in-law to Keating is "Jr."  I would suspect that the donor is his father.

    Note that is speculation, but it would make sense.  Further speculation is that they are somehow related to "the Plumber."  However, the relationship may be distant enough that they are not aware of it.  That can happen over a couple generations.  Say second cousins or further.

    I grew up near Toledo and I wouldn't consider Milford to be particularly close, geographically, even though they are in the same state.

    by marchmoon on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:15:17 AM PST

    •  For those who say the connection has been debunkd

      It has not.  
      But it's also true, as marchmoon says, that no link has been discovered.
      At this point, if there's a link, I'd say it's just an odd second-cousin-once-removed coincidence.

      (We gave much more play on this site, a couple of months ago, to a McCain second cousin dissing him in a letter to the editor.)

      by North Madison on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:15:28 PM PST

      •  hello??!

        Yes idiots, this has been debunked.

        Joe's father is FRANK who is in his early 60s.

        There is no direct relation to the Cincinnati family name.  And who really cares if this is second cousin great grandson twice removed.

        by electiledisfunction on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 01:28:06 PM PST

  •  The Robt Wurzelbacher of Coronado & Phoenix

    is married to Elizabeth (Beth) Keating according to Lexis. Not the Milford Ohio person. Lexis says he's 54, so the age is right, too. There are 17 Robert Wurzelbachers in Ohio, mostly the Cincinnati area, in the Lexis database.

    Also, according to Lexis, Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher's "possible relations" include a 30-something Robert, and a possible father named Frank. I think it's likely that Joe is related, perhaps distantly to the Robert, above, of the Keating scandal. By the way, Joe has lived in various places in AZ in the past.

    Can't give a link to Lexis as it's subscription only.

    by DorothyT on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 12:00:08 PM PST

    •  Distant relationship, if at all from all

      appearances.

      by shpilk on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 06:32:02 PM PST

    •  all wrong

      Joe's father is Frank who is in his 60s and from the Toledo area.

      The only thing even remotely connected is Joe's brothers name is Robert Lee.

      These idiots are running with a false story.

      by electiledisfunction on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 01:26:19 PM PST

•  now we have McCain's Treasury Sec.

  The functionally illiterate cabinet is taking shape.

  by Marcion on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:58:05 AM PST

•  Joe 5-pack.

  by JerichoJ8 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:59:00 AM PST

  •  Heh.

    by willyr on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 03:01:54 PM PST

•  You're right-- it's a common name

  Like Hussein

  by samantha in oregon on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:59:17 AM PST

•  Yeah, but...

  Ancestry.com lists a Samuel J. Wurzelbacher born in 1973 living at 1960 W. Keating Drive in Mesa, AZ at some point in the past twenty years!

  (True, but meant as Snark lest there be any doubt!)

  by bogbud on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:59:56 AM PST

  •  Woops...

    Turns out it IS the same guy.  Same Social Security number appears on a judgement (dismissed) against Joe the Plumber of 1960 W Keating Ave, Mesa Arizona on 11/15/2000.  Mr. Wurzelbacher was born on December 3, 1973.

    -source-

    by bogbud on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:26:06 AM PST

  •  Keating Drive? oh no not again

    but it is true that that same Charles Keating from Cincinnati moved to Arizona and was a developer in both states as well as an anti porn crusader and anti abortion crusader and banker and Republican felon.

    So there may be a relatiuonship. We should know what we're doing that's all.
    it's a rabbit hole anyway but it's fun.

    by annalivia on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 02:43:20 PM PST

•  Did it occur to you that the two Roberts might be

  related (e.g., father and son)?  The ages work.

  by cph on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:00:17 AM PST

  •  still unproven, but the ages are in the range.

    by shpilk on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:01:12 AM PST

•  um .. OK

  I think the point is the son Joe might be related to Robert M. Wurzelbacher.

  No one is claiming the bald guy that spoke to Obama is 83 years old.

  by shpilk on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:00:42 AM PST

  •  Not the claim I'm addressing

    I've seen claims that the Robert M. Wurzelbacher in Milford is the same Robert M. Wurzelbacher from the Keating 5 scandal.

    by ttujoe on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:03:02 AM PST

    •  check out this

      from crooks and liars

      relative, not the same dood.

      by remingtonsteele on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:07:24 AM PST

      •  No, C&L is claiming he's the same guy

        Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.

        The italicized part refers to Wurzelbacher I. The next sentence is the Milford, OH Wurzelbacher.

        by ttujoe on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:09:50 AM PST

        •  yeah, that was what they said about

          Robert Wurzelbacher.  this "Joe" is a close relative of Robert.

          sorry for the late reply.

          by remingtonsteele on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 02:41:08 PM PST

    •  You've got the right idea, but need to

      broaden the scope. Sorry, I was at work and could not respond until now.

      The bigger issue is that the concept of any relationship is tenuous and probably bogus, at best.

      by shpilk on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 06:29:57 PM PST

•  37 + 17 = 83, only because

  the last 8 years have felt like 37 years.

  by illinifan17 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:00:57 AM PST

•  Someone told me

  that Joe the plumber was changing the faucets in the Texas School Book Depository on Novermber 22, 1963.

  by bugscuffle on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:01:19 AM PST

•  Relevant issues about Joe the unlicensed plumber

  1. Is Joe the Plumber a Republican operative, which further would cast more light on McCain-Palin's total lack of integrity. The way McCain overused the Joe references would make this scandal really, really problematic for him.

  2.Using the Joe example to publicize the actual details of Obama's tax plan. It seems that McCain totally misrepresented the implications for Joe, which mirrors his broader campaign distortions.

  I agree with you that speculations about distant ties to the Keating family or Wasilla) are not worth the time or energy.

  by madtownpopulist on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:01:19 AM PST

•  Who's to say the 83-year old

  is not the (now) 54 year old's father or uncle? Would fit fairly well with the ages.

  I read somewhere that there are only 174 Wurzelbachers in the United States (sorry, no source), which would make the chance that Joe the Plumber is no farther off from Keating's son in law than second cousin about one in three.

  by Calouste on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:01:53 AM PST

  •  And?

    My grandparents came from big families. I have a couple hundred second cousins. One's even a politician. I've met maybe one or two at most, at funerals, thirty years ago.

    There is no story here.

    by raboof on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:24:47 AM PST

    •  I have an extremely uncommon last name

      And yet, every once in a blue moon, I've come across a few other people with the same name, though not always spelled the same.

      Relatives? Probably somewhere back in the old country, sure. But it doesn't mean I could pick them out of a lineup, or vice versa, and certainly doesn't prove or disprove anything about me.

      We're deep into "grasping at straws" territory here.

      by ipsos on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 02:19:37 PM PST

  •  the obits say so.

    Quit spreading all this crap.

    yes they are probably related somewhere in some genealogy tree.  The obits that have been posted rule out the direct family connection.

    There is no direct link to the Keatings version of the family name in Cincinnati.

    by electiledisfunction on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 01:37:18 PM PST

•  Just like Palin

  The mushy middle wanted to use a Pelosicrat approach on her too.

  Just because McCain didn't vet this guy and the media refuses to do its job doesn't mean we shouldn't.  

  Old Republican tricks die hard.

  by BigBensBeermaster on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:02:45 AM PST

•  I have been investigating this for the

  past hour and it appears that the story may well be a complete hoax. The source for this rumor is Martin Eisenstadt.

  Here's what source watch has to say about him:

  HOAX WARNING RE "M. THOMAS EISENSTADT" AND THE "HARDING INSTITUTE FOR FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY"

  "M. Thomas Eisenstadt" is a pseudonym used to describe someone who claims to be a "Senior Fellow at the Harding Institute for Freedom and Democracy in Washington, D.C.[1] A "bio" note claims that "Eisenstadt" is the "founder and president of the campaign consulting firm The Eisenstadt Group and was an advisor to the Rudolph Giuliani presidential campaign in 2007-2008."[2]

  According to the "bio" note, "Eisenstadt" was described by the Wall Street Journal as "one of the foremost commentators on issues of U.S. policy towards the Middle East and is one of the bright lights of the neoconservative movement."[2] He cites National Journal’s The Hotline as referring to himself as "a rising GOP pundit" and "a clear-spoken advocate for Rudy Giuliani."[2]

  In June 2008 blogger William K. Wolfum concluded that "M. Thomas Eisenstadt (who originally started a blog named www.michaeleisenstadt.com and was referred to as "Michael") was a hoax. As was his "think tank" called "The Harding Institute for Freedom and Democracy" (which seems to be a joke, being that Warren G. Harding is widely considered to be one of the worst Presidents in U.S. history)."[3] After being outed, the "biographical" note was changed to "Martin Eisenstadt."

  I have left a message with a staffer at the Center For Media and Democracy about this.

  by Bouwerie Boy on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:03:00 AM PST

  •  The Wurzelbacher/Keating connection is not a hoax

    This is a New York Times story stating that Robert Wurzelbacher is Keating's son-in-law.

    The relation of Joseph to Robert is not proved, but it strains credulity to suggest that the Wurzelbachers of America are not somehow related.  

    But the point of the story is not that Charles Keating came back from the dead to urge his son-in-law's third cousin to haunt Obama's campaign.  The point is, how could McCain use as the emotional linchpin of his debate a man who is so easily connected, even if spuriously, to his greatest political embarrassment?

    The last thing John McCain wants people thinking about right now is Charles Keating.

    by TheWurx on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:22:12 AM PST

    •  The only thing we know for

      certain at this point is that Martin Eisendtadt is apparently a hoax site. Read the link. He has fooled quite a few media outlets in the past. Anything attributed to him must be viewed as highly suspect.

      by Bouwerie Boy on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:32:51 AM PST

    •  Not a direct connect...

      but what we amateur geneologists might call "smoke" - poking around ancestry.com got me to Joe - same exact Joe, same SS# - living in two different apartments in a $10 million apartment complex on W. KEATING Avenue.

      There is a connection here... just haven't proved it yet.  Too much coincidence, just in the whole Ohio-Arizona and Keating-Wurzelburger connections!  

      I hate tin-foil, but I've tracked down long-dead ancestors hundreds of years back on colder trails!

      by bogbud on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:40:23 AM PST

  •  Post this comment as a diary, please ...

    by raboof on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:39:32 AM PST

    •  I'll do that n/t

      by Bouwerie Boy on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:44:51 AM PST

      •  Thank you

        The check is in the mail ...

        by raboof on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:46:44 AM PST

•  Joe's getting a lot of chances to slam Obama ..

  cut the camera, send Joe back home!

  by sallym on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:04:56 AM PST

•  Get over this.

  The ages don't work.  The Wurzelbacher who was involved in the Keating scandal was in his late 30's in 1993 when he was sentenced.  Articles from that period describe him and his wife as having two grade-school-age children.  "Joe the Plumber" was TWENTY YEARS OLD in 1993.

  No connection.  And "Eisenstadt" is a wingnut hoax.  Give up on this.

  by youseeit on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:07:47 AM PST

  •  That's the diarists point, I think n/t

    by Catte Nappe on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:33:04 AM PST

    •  my comment was directed

      to everyone else... I could have made that a little more clear tho, thanks.

      by youseeit on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:40:46 AM PST

•  Thank you.

  Yours is probably the last of the majillion Plumber diaries I will read today.  I hate these days when everyone thinks they have a "breaking" or new concept diary on the same topic -- boring as shit and there's a hell of a lot of other stuff to discuss.

  by gchaucer2 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:08:42 AM PST

•  Identical cousins!!!!!

  by RadMod on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:20:20 AM PST

  •  OMG! Joe the Plumber is related to

    Patty Duke!  

    by RadioGirl on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:26:42 AM PST

•  It was still fun playin'...

  I even speculated the question & posted a linky to the blog that made the claim on Craigslist. I'm all done now. I promise...
  I guess after all the crap we got over the last 2 elections & now having a chance for redemption I'm just really not a big enough person to resist the urge to throw the dung pie back in their faces. I'll have to try a little harder...

  by Chapman on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 11:32:31 AM PST

•  I beg to disagree

  this is worth a continued look and more research.

  There are two Robert M. Wurzelbacher's.  One is an 83-year old retiree, the other is 54 and a convicted felon who was Charles Keating's son-in-law.  The elder Robert is from Ohio as is Plumber Joe and Charles Keating.  We don't know where the younger/convict Robert is from, but it's not a stretch to wonder if he could be originally from Ohio since he is Robert M. Wuzelbacher JR, as in the son of a man named Robert M. Wuzelbacher.

  It's not a stretch to think the two Robert's COULD be father and son, particularly since there are only 173 Wuzelbachers in the entire country. We don't think we need to jump to conclusions, but additional research is in order.

  Since McCain is now using Plumber Joe in an ad, the least we can do is find out who the guy really is.  

  http://query.nytimes.com/...

  "The guilty plea today was from Robert M. Wurzelbacher Jr., who had been a senior vice president of Lincoln's parent company, the American Continental Corporation of Phoenix, and the chief executive of an investment firm owned by Lincoln Savings. Mr. Wurzelbacher, who is 38 years old, is married to the former Elizabeth Keating, one of Mr. Keating's daughters."

  by JennieB on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 04:00:42 PM PST

  •  I tend to agree with you

    the link is not yet proven but read this other diary - http://www.dailykos.com/...

    Robert M. Wurzelbacher Snr. is suggested as the man to have been a 'heavy' GOP donor. http://www.city-data.com/...

    As the obituary link shows (in the DKos diary above) he had a son Robert M. Wurzelbacher Jnr. It is suggested that this man is the man indicted in relation to the Keating 5. The obituary link also states the son of Robert M. Wurzelbacher Snr. thus "Robert (Beth) Wurzelbacher Jr." and Charles Keating's daughter is Elizabeth (Beth) Wurzelbacher.

    However the diarist suggests that Joe Wurzelbacher is related to the brother of Robert M. Wurzelbacher Snr, one Dr. Richard Wurzelbacher but due to the age it is likely that Joe would be a grandson of Richard and therefore a second cousin to Robert M. Wurzelbacher Jnr. of the Keating 5. Then again I have no idea if Robert M. Wurzelbacher Jnr. (b 1954) has children and whether Joe (b 1973) is one of them. The geographical story indicate that it is unlikely.

    The link below hypothesises that Joe's parents might be Frank (b 1957) and Phyllis (b 1954) Wurzelbacher of Toledo, Ohio where it is reported Joe was born.
    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    What needs to be determined 1) is Robert M. Wurzelbacher Jnr., (the son of Robert M. Wurzelbacher Snr.), the same man involved in the Keating 5 scandal and 2) is Joe Wurzelbacher the grandson of Dr. Richard Wurzelbacher (brother of Robert M. Wurzelbacher Snr.)?

    Regardless it doesn't in any way say anything about Joe Wurzelbacher. It may just illustrate a quirk of life and how it really is a small world.

    by Dougie on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 04:32:22 PM PST

    •  Excellent summation

      I've been on the same trail all day, and agree that the connection, if it exists, has yet to be discovered. And yet to be disproved.

      by North Madison on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:12:00 PM PST

    •  hello!!

      Hey give it up.

      Joe is clearly the son of Frank and Phyllis. Why don't you check the address listed for Joe in divorce filings that you idiots have pasted everywhere.  Why are you prying into this guys life.  Sure he is a plant and talking-point master.

      There is no direct connection to Robert M.  Maybe they are cousins or nephew which might be possible, but not from the Obits.  The Obits do not list a Frank as related.

      Fact, Joe just like his parents have been in Toledo area for a long time.  Joe has voted in 2002 onwards in Ohio.  Yes, there is an address in AZ from the filings, but the majority of the time has been in Ohio.

      Joe listed his address at the same house as his father Frank.  Frank is in his 60s.

      Please give it up.  Quit digging into this guy's life.

      by electiledisfunction on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 01:34:45 PM PST

  •  The source of the story is a known hoaxster

    and fraud

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    by shpilk on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 05:20:49 PM PST

    •  It doesn't matter

      The facts are that the surname is an unusual name and research will prove or disprove the link.

      Just because someone decides to write fantasy citing the names of 2 real people it doesn't mean that a proper investigation of 2 people isn't warranted.

      If we were to drop it because of one guys fantasies then a lot of the crimes of Bush would never have been uncovered.

      by Dougie on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 03:52:28 AM PST

•  I am constantly getting my...

  ...Wurzelbachers confuzed.

  If it votes like a Wurzelbacher and it cheats like a Wurzelbacher -- then it's a Wurzelbacher.

  by Veritas78 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 06:19:04 PM PST

•  Can we get this Rec'd; and other diary removed?

  The original diary suggesting a link is still getting hits and links from all over the intertubz.  Losing credibility does not help.  Any help in removing the wrong diary would be appreciated.

  by BvueDem on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 06:42:36 PM PST

•  Hey Joe, you are rich. What happened to it????

  McCain said, "Hey Joe, you are rich" because he makes $250,000, that is if he buys the business.  In the Saddleback debate, McCain said $5 million is rich, making less than that is not. Boy!! Losses on the Wall Street are worse then we are lead to believe. Joe the Plumber, you just lost $4,750,000.00 thanks to Bush/McCain policies. Are you still voting for four more years of the same? How is that for spreading the wealth and Obama is not even in office.

  First debate, McCain said, $5 million was rich, less than that is not.....last debate, $250,000 is now the new rich...Thank goodness the debates are over because McCain would have said, $2.50 would be the next new rich and I have that.

  McCain wants to talk about Joe the Plumber so we don't talk about Joe the Wallstreet Thief or Joe the Soldier.

  by koolid on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 07:51:29 PM PST