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As with any good religiously-themed diary let me begin with a confession. My wife and I have not been regular church goers for a couple of years now. Once both our sons had made their way through CCD and Confirmation into the Catholic Church it somehow became a less urgent matter to drag ourselves out of bed on a Sunday morning, or pull ourselves away from Saturday afternoon activities to make the 20-25 minute trek to Saturday afternoon mass. The fact that the priest and one particular Deacon loved to deliver Fox News talking points from the pulpit about the so-called 'war on Christianity', 'war on Christmas', and 'war against marriage' also contributed to our lapse in attendance.

By way of "full disclosure" I will reveal that I am not a Catholic. I was raised and confirmed as a Methodist. My wife is a Catholic, born and raised. What in the old days might have been termed a mixed marriage. (Though in Connecticut it is the fact that she is a Red Sox fan and I am a Yankees fan that makes ours a mixed marriage.)
We were married in the Catholic Church, our sons were raised and confirmed in the Catholic Church as well.
For the various reason cited in the Intro we had not been regular church goers lately, lapsing into that derided pattern of Christmas/Easter mass attendance. Yet last Sunday night, our anniversary, my wife and I found ourselves sitting in a Catholic Church in a nearby town.
Besides our two sons who are now both off at college, my wife and I have been blessed with the company of what has to be the sweetest dog ever known, a runt of a yellow Labrador Retriever named Sondra. We have had her from the time she was a puppy. She is funny and playful, a big wuss, and despite a desire to eat 24/7 would also rather give and receive love and be your friend then get food. But she has also reached over 11 years of age. In the last couple of weeks her eating habits, sleeping habits and behavior began to change. Some days she was just terribly lethargic, showing no interest in food whatsoever, even in her favorite treats like pizza crusts and doggie ice cream. We knew something was up.
Long story short, she was bleeding internally. Most likely cause we were told by the vet is a splenic tumor. If that was the case the spleen can be removed and the dog continues to live, at least for a somewhat longer time. But if the source was somewhere else then the options were not as good. The day before her surgery there were tears, prayers and the usual bargains made.
The surgery was performed and it did turn out to be the spleen. Tests have shown the tumors were malignant so overall prognosis is not entirely great, but there are options. For now anyway she is home with us, healing, and acting more like her usual self.
So after hearing the news that it was the spleen and she had made it through the surgery I turned to my wife and said, "of course this means we have to go to church this Sunday. I promised I would if she made it through this."
That Sunday happened to be our anniversary and I had made reservations for us to go out to brunch. It turned out that the only service we were able to make was a Sunday evening mass at a church in the town next to ours.
It was like riding a bicycle, the liturgy coming back to me easily as if we had been regularly attending mass these past years.
So there we sat as the priest began his homily based on the gospel of 'render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar'. Oh good I thought, a sermon on how it is not immoral to pay taxes. Perhaps more than that a statement of how it is moral to pay your fair share to the government. Obviously I had been away for too long if that was my optimistic expectation.
The priest was careful not to mention names and to state that they could not and would not ever tell anyone specifically how to vote. But as my Catholic wife stated, "why didn't he make it simple and just tell everyone to vote for McCain/Palin?"
The priest talked about the culture of death, the violence against the innocent life of the unborn. Now he did also talk about other components of the "culture of life", like being for peace not war, being against capital punishment, working for justice and to end poverty. But as he explained it - all those issues get trumped by the abortion issue. Yes, a politician can be on the "right" side on all those other issues, but if that candidate is on the "wrong" side of the abortion issue it doesn't matter. Now he didn't say so , but I suppose the converse of that is you can be for war, for capital punishment, work against helping the poor and powerless in our society, but as long as you are "anti-abortion" then you are okay with God and the Church. Or at least their preferred candidate for public office. They consider the violence against the innocent unborn to be that heinous compared to the other issues.
There were of course the expected pronouncements against the recent Connecticut Supreme Court decision regarding same-sex marriage as well. But the real slap in the face was toward the beginning of the homily when the priest all but said that those Catholics who would vote for "pro-abortion" candidates are as guilty as if they performed the abortion themselves.
My wife and I were extremely upset by all this. If it wasn't for Sondra we probably would have walked out. As it was, instead of our usual contribution my wife made a point of taking out a single dollar bill, folding it a number of times and dropping it in the collection plate when it was brought around. And we left right after she had received Holy Communion. Being from the Catholic tradition (including parochial schools) she was more upset by this than I was. As she put it, it's the arrogance and hate toward others in the name of religion that she can't stand.
We are hoping to find a church to attend regularly, and our dog needs all our prayers to defeat her cancer and live whatever remaining days she has as comfortably and energetically as possible. But we know one church we will not be returning to.

UPDATE: Thanks for all the good wishes, prayers, thoughtful comments and suggestions.

Originally posted to kenwards on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:07 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tips for Sondra? (133+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MoDem, Terri, SilverWings, decisivemoment, askew, JeffLieber, TrueBlueMajority, Bruce HB Lee, Yoshimi, billlaurelMD, mlharges, autoegocrat, labradog, Dalbergia, xtopher, peraspera, MazeDancer, kyoders, Ludi, Getreal1246, MKS, peterborocanuck, Catte Nappe, The Termite, Greg in TN, riverlover, fritzrth, KayCeSF, Big Tex, Recovering Southern Baptist, marina, escapee, capelza, blueyedace2, Chinton, reflectionsv37, Dr Squid, Mr X, peteri2, Joy Busey, Hastur, RainyDay, CDinBoston, Philpm, MagisterLudi, Shirl In Idaho, poco, Jennifer Clare, TrentinaNE, SFJen, hungrycoyote, bluebrain, urbannie, fiddler crabby, birdbrain64, myrealname, Wisper, txdemfem, RantNRaven, MadMs, FrankieB, jessical, Old Gardener, randorider, mamabigdog, The Werewolf Prophet, stratocasterman, Progressive Chick, Korkenzieher, TomP, extradish, zenobia, sand805, jgilhousen, MKinTN, rogerdaddy, JaxDem, abeincicero, scooter in brooklyn, bythesea, golconda2, pyxylyx, dagnabbit, rylly, phrogge prince, luckylizard, nokkonwud, Nica24, magicsister, shortgirl, Tom Enever, Bule Betawi, litoralis, ProfJonathan, ThompsonLazyBoy, virginwoolf, Wit Whither Wilt, johngoes, sistermoon, Septima, sherijr, etara, hamsisu, Vita Brevis, hotdamn, Alec82, seattlegirl, Obamican08, RethinkEverything, voracious, Mara Jade, atxcats, legalchic, consciousempress, Eddie L, pixxer, Vitam Vas, Benintn, scarlet slipper, Ed G, bottles, republikofbellevue, Irony Raygun, Shelbyville Manhattan, yellow cosmic seed, Zenara, andromeda, BlackQueen40, Pannich, BlueTexan2008, marksmyword, page394, SyntheticHumanGirl

    Blue is blue and must be that. But yellow is none the worse for it - Edith Sidebottom

    by kenwards on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:09:49 PM PDT

    •  May Sondra have many more good doggie (29+ / 0-)

      years and, in the end meet her Creator...who will be waiting for her with a shiny, new fire hydrant, an endless supply of chew toys and more green, grassy pastures then she could ever run through.
      Peace to you and yours. Good for you. End The Hate.
      ;-)>

      "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And somebody's giving booze to these goddamn things!"-Hunter S. Thompson ;-)>

      by rogerdaddy on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:13:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Our yellow Lab (rescued, nicknamed The Dogrel, (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MKS, escapee, Philpm, fiddler crabby, rylly
      would also rather play than eat but will eat anything including cat scat), sends out a tail wag & a woof to Sondra.

      You made me tear up.  Just went to hug my 4-legged child.

      Former soldier. Fighting for my country. Every day.

      by SilverWings on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:24:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What city do you live in? At my church most... (6+ / 0-)

      people are supporting Obama, but the ministers are sure to only preach from the Bible and not talk about wedge issues like abortion and not to say from the pulpit who they are supporting in terms of the election.  I am personally opposed to abortion (except in exceptional cases like the health of a mother being at risk, rape, and incest), but I also believe strongly in separation of church and state and, as such, think that Roe v. Wade should stay the law of the land.

      I have attended my church for almost 10 years, I am very committed to it (go a couple of times a week), other people in the congregation and I talk all the time about politics (and they are almost all for Obama too and also believe that you cannot legislate morality...that is why it is a personal walk with God that you have and our role as Christians is to help others see and know God).

      Anyway, I would be happy to recommend a nearby sister church if there is one near where you live.  Just let me know where you live, and I can find out if we have a church nearby - but it is a non-denominational church (i.e.  it will NOT be a Catholic Church so I am not sure if that is a deal-breaker for you and your wife).

      In the meantime, I just prayed for Sondra to not be in too much pain and that she can recuperate but that if she cannot get better, that you will find peace in your heart as to when to put her to sleep.  We had to do that with a dog that we had a couple of years ago too (who also had numerous tumors), and it was heart-wrenching...but we could not let our little guy suffer too much (he was in so-o-o-o much pain, and my husband and I just wanted him to run free in doggy-heaven).  I often wonder if there is a ladder that goes from doggy-heaven to people-heaven, and if so, if we will see our dogs that we lost on earth in heaven someday.  

      Anyway, please hang in there and love up on Sondra...and know that God really does want you to worship Him and find a church home where you can feel welcomed, at peace, and part of a community where you are growing closer to God each day.

    •  Best wishes to Sondra (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Philpm, fiddler crabby
      To that Priest, I can only hope that if there is a God, this individual will have a better understanding of the nature of the universe, when he finds out his Earthly time, while good in many ways, wasn't precise or correct.

      My wife, the Jewish born reincarnationist, would explain to the Priest, that the decision to abort, only means a different moment of birth.

      Me the agnostic, I roll with the punches, and who knows what my eternal future holds.

      My only certainty; finding out.

      Political pardons are unacceptable Mr Bush,and so is hiding your daddy's secrets behind exectutive orders,free the truth now.Econ 3.50&Soc. 5.79

      by wmc418 on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:31:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You don't need a church... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fiddler crabby, golconda2

      ...especially if you have befriended a dog. All life's important lessons are at hand.

      Consider, please, making the Humane Society, or ASPCA, the recipient of your tithing!

      This message is approved by Maybelline, my 2y.o. rescued Lab, on whom I'm resting my head as I type.

      May Sondra continue to enjoy the good life for all her days!

      I'm the plowman in the valley - with my face full of mud

      by labradog on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:56:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  May you find comfort somewhere. nt (5+ / 0-)

    Right-wingers who clamor for war and oppose universal health care are not "pro-life" and don't get to say they're "pro-life." It's a lie. Night Train

    by peterborocanuck on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:12:40 PM PDT

  •  be careful (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, hungrycoyote, fiddler crabby

    they might start burning witches at the stake next week.  

    Prayers for Sondra!

    Of all the disciplines, history is best qualified to reward our research.--Malcolm X

    by consciousempress on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:12:49 PM PDT

  •  By extension, if you vote for a pro war (11+ / 0-)

    candidate , you are guilty of murder.

    "The military industrial complex not only controls our government, lock, stock and barrel, but they control our culture." - Mike Gravel

    by Wilberforce on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:13:15 PM PDT

  •  Catholic Church is scum (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    golconda2

    12 years of Catholic School taught me that

    Obama = Mario, Biden = Luigi http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/acsguitar/obamamario.jpg

    by acsguitar on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:13:32 PM PDT

  •  Being an ex Catholic (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MKS, capelza, Philpm, golconda2
    from Connecticut, who ended up after many many years of agonizing, leaving and joining an Episcopal church, I understand completely.  You might check one out, especially if you can call and ask if they are Rite I and if they still follow the Archbishop of Canterbury or whether they've schismed off with the Nigerians. (You want one that stays with the Archbiship, IMHO)

    Disclosure: Proud to be the Volunteer coordinator for Indiana for WesPAC

    by ElaineinIN on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:13:35 PM PDT

  •  Is this a God = Dog post? (4+ / 0-)

    IF not, then next time walk; Sondra will still love you.  You can probably do more for her at home anyway.

  •  If you can't in good conscience attend, (20+ / 0-)

    Then leave. And tell the pastor/priest/rabbi/etc. why you did.

    I left the place of worship that I grew up in when the pastor spoke on how we shouldn't oppose the invasion of Iraq.

    And when I say "I left," I don't mean I filed out quietly after the altar call and never returned. I mean I got up out of the pew and left in the middle of the sermon.

    Then I went hope and wrote a letter to the pastor telling him why I would not be back. We talked about it until he understood my specific objection.

    If you can't in good conscience attend your place of worship, then leave. Jesus was all about purifying the temple of corruption.

    "My greatest weakness? It's possible that I am a little too awesome." --- Barack Obama

    by Shelbyville Manhattan on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:14:16 PM PDT

  •  The point of this post is (6+ / 0-)

    But the real slap in the face was toward the beginning of the homily when the priest all but said that those Catholics who would vote for "pro-abortion" candidates are as guilty as if they performed the abortion themselves.

    It's all they talk about on EWTN

    Hope your doggie gets better.  If not, I believe you will meet again as I believe we are eternal beings having a temporary, temporal experience.

    Earth School where we are to learn to LOVE GOD AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

    •  Yes, but I don't think that is what really (0+ / 0-)

      happened in that particular church.

      I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization.--Oliver Wendell Holmes

      by Timaeus on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:45:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you weren't there... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        golconda2
        ... then pipe down, please. I've heard this kind of sermon in Catholic churches.

        Even my 75-year-old mother, who had two brothers become priests and one sister a nun, is fed up with this crap.  As she puts it, the Republicans are never going to succeed in outlawing abortion and they don't want to.  They want the continual appearance of being opposed.  The Catholic Church is allowing itself to be used.

        •  Perhaps you didn't read my long comment (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          golconda2

          in this thread. Churches all across the country were preaching from the same book yesterday. The diary gave a pretty complete account of what the priest said, and it sounded exactly like what the priest said at my church. The diarist's wife thought it went too far in one direction. Of course she's entitled to her opinion. But my opinion is equally valid that I don't think that's an objectively accurate way to interpret it.

          And please don't tell me to "pipe down." My comment is reasonable.

          I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization.--Oliver Wendell Holmes

          by Timaeus on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 03:46:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you weren't in WAR ON ERROR's church ... (0+ / 0-)

            ...then you don't know precisely what THAT priest said.  Your comment above sounded as though it were doubting a poster's factual account of something you did not witness.  That's what I objected to.

  •  your pastor (8+ / 0-)

    overstepped his bounds. I like that knotted up dollar bill, but I do not know how you remained in your seats during that "homily." This is why our church is hemorraging good thinking people like you.
    I don't recognize our church three quarters of the time. I recommend you find another Catholic community--who said you have to worship in a parish? There are many great progressive Catholic nonprofits out there, and I find solace and mental stimulation and moral support in them with no parish walls to surround us and no parish building to heat and no parish smugness to assault me. Oh God what is happening when just this past month the pope AGAIN announced that contraception is evil?

    •  I would leave your priest a copy of the IRS code (11+ / 0-)

      in his collection plate that references the basis for their tax exemption.  We really need to get this exemption changed.  Based on what churchs have been involved in, I have become admandantly opposed to their tax exempt status.  I would take it one step further...if churches have been found to have participated in this type of political propoganda, they not only lose their status but they should have to pay back taxes for a minimum of 10 years.  Churches these days are a business(they are in the business of selling dogma) and they should be treated as one.

      •  I would make a copy of tax code and mail it (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marina, Philpm, Old Gardener, JaxDem, golconda2

        to the church.
        Add a note how you felt about sermon.  Don't have to put your name - it can be anonymous.  
        Honestly, too many say nothing... and, the lack of speaking out can eventually lead to tyranny.

        We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein

        by FearlessAreFree on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:49:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  been sayin the same for years (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marina, Philpm, Old Gardener, golconda2

        They need to be put on notice.  Warning first followed by small fine, big fine, loss of tax exempt status and probation then permanent loss of tax exempt status.  

        There must be separation of church and state.  Churches have been getting away w/more and more of this crap for too long and it gets worse each election cycle.

        Prayers for your wonderful dog's improved health and strength for you and your wife to get through this difficult time.  

        My heart is filled with love for this country. Barack Obama

        by JaxDem on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:51:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Someone should pull their tax exemption (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm

    -- they are not non-partisan and hardly, in my view, religious.

    We have only just begun and none too soon.

    by global citizen on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:17:02 PM PDT

  •  Have to say this (5+ / 0-)

    Spirituality and religion are two different things, and they usually live in different houses.

    Why go to church? Religion is the crack cocaine of the masses these days.

  •  I walked out years ago,. (6+ / 0-)

    And kept on walking.

    A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem.- Albert Einstein

    by bldr on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:18:42 PM PDT

  •  As a recovering Catholic (6+ / 0-)

    as well as a dog lover, I appreciate your dilemma.  You wanted to fulfill your promise to Sondra, but were stuck listening to a speech that should have been delivered at a campaign rally not a church.

    Really, some brave soul out there needs to take the entire American Catholic Church out and strip 'em of their tax exempt status.

    {{{{{{Hugs}}}}} To Sondra and best mojo wishes for a speedy recovery from Da WufPak in Williconsinois

    John McCain = George W. Bush - shorter, uglier and a $hitload meaner!

    by luvsathoroughbred on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:18:55 PM PDT

  •  Please keep attending, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roxtar, marina, JaxDem

    it's hard enough to get a tee time on Sunday mornings as it is. Give em your money, just keep an eye on your kids.

  •  Attend an animal shelter, instead... (5+ / 0-)

    They could use your help and donations a lot more than some over-decorated house of superstition could. (No offense to the superstitious.)

  •  Must read this (7+ / 0-)

    The Catholic Case for Obama

    Just published online.

    Justice, mercy, tolerance, hope, love, grace, and redemption are all Judeo-Christian values.

    by Benintn on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:20:19 PM PDT

  •  It's been going on like this for years (9+ / 0-)
    Raised Catholic, haven't been to church, except on Christmas, for decades.  

    In 2003, my mom unexpectedly died in a bizarre household accident. Took me months to deal with. Long story short, on Memorial Day 2004, the bishop was dedicating the newly-built masoleum my mom will be spending eternity in (she was in a temporary spot up until then, which I called her apartment ;-) and he turned the entire homily into a screed against abortion and supporting the Iraq War.  This was supposed to be a service that honored all the newly-interred residents of the masoleum.  

    I was devasted - that day was supposed to be about my mom, and that bishop turned it into a right-wing propaganda fest.  The Catholic church of my youth is no more.

    •  My Mom also passed away unexpectedly and the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      golconda2

      worst part of the experience was dealing with the Catholic Church.  All the priest wanted to talk about were the fee's involved in the service. If it was not for the fact that I know my Mom really wanted this service I would have told him to go to hell. The Church of my youth was a den of moneychangers and it apparently still is.

  •  Hopefully Your Wife Will See the Light (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marina, Old Gardener

    and start supporting the Yankees.

    I hope Sondra recovers fully.

    This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

    by Mr X on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:22:13 PM PDT

  •  Just like you (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marina, mvr, Philpm, golconda2, seattlegirl

    I'm a Methodist too, who also married a Catholic girl. My wife is pro-choice, Vatican teachings notwithstanding. We ran into a slight problem not with her church, but with her family. I went and found some info from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, which indicates that abortion should not be the sole basis upon which a voter should make a decision about a candidate. Here are couple of links. Print them out and mail them to that priest who annoyed you ;)

    Bishops Offer Voting Guide

    Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship

    Good luck!

    The Bush Family: 0 for 4 in Wisconsin

    by Korkenzieher on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:22:30 PM PDT

  •  The Message: Vote for an Adulterer? (4+ / 0-)

    Because that's what it sounds like too many "religious leaders" are saying, both in and outside of the Catholic Church. Somehow Obama and Biden allowing citizens to act according to their consciences (that whole "free will" thing) is worse than John McCain walking out on his wife and kids to live with a mistress (and according to the Church, his "marriage" to Cindy can never be recognized), not to mention Sarah Palin's membership in a "psuedo-Christian Cult," as the nun who taught us religion my sophmore year put it.

    Yet more evidence that the Church as jumped on the "pro-family" political bandwagon. It's just sad.

    A government that denies gay men the right to bridal registry is a facist state - Margaret Cho

    by CPT Doom on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:22:34 PM PDT

  •  Our Local Catholic Church Front Yard is Packed (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marina, Philpm, imabluemerkin, golconda2

    with aborted-dead-baby crosses.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:22:35 PM PDT

  •  The Anglican Church (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, golconda2

    has become a home for former Catholics who couldn't take the conservativism anymore.  Think about it.

  •  Um, Christian churchs are against killing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    golconda2

    the unborn.  You said you were a Catholic yet you are upset?  This is what christian's believe.  We pro choicers have known this for a long time.  You can't be christian and pro choice.  It is black and white.

    •  you may need to do a little research.nt (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mvr, Philpm, extradish, Irony Raygun
    •  Show me where in scripture God specifically (0+ / 0-)

      addresses the issue of abortion.  In the old testament, if you cause a pregnant woman's miscarriage(abortion) you are fined.  Leviticus never references an eye for an eye in this circumstance as it does in the case of murder so where does this interpretation come from?

      •  UM (1+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        golconda2
        Hidden by:
        Uncle Cosmo

        Gen. 25:21,22 In Genesis 25:21,22, Rebekah conceived twins, and "the children struggled together within her." That which was conceived was called a "child" between the conception and the birth.
        The Hebrew word used here (BEN) is the most common Old Testament word for a child or son. When used for the physical offspring of humans, it consistently refers to distinct human individuals (see Gen. 25:1-4; 3:16; etc.). Job 3:3
        On the very night of Job's conception it could have been said, "There is a man-child conceived." The word for "man-child" (Heb. GEBER) elsewhere means "man," i.e., a human individual (see Job 3:23; 4:17; 10:5; Psalms 127:5; 128:4; etc.).
        Job 3:16 Babies that die before birth are called "infants" that never saw light. This is exactly like babies that are aborted. This word (Heb. OLEL) always and without exception refers to human individuals (cf. Hosea 13:16; Psalm 8:2; Joel 2:16).
        Numbers 12:12; Luke 1:43 In Numbers 12:12, Moses describes "one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb." If a baby dies before it is born -- as in an abortion -- the woman who conceived it is still a "mother."
        In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth addressed Mary as "the mother of my Lord" before Jesus was born.
        The word "mother" (Heb. EM; Greek METER), in contexts referring to physical human reproduction, always refers to one who has procreated or formed another human individual, a separate and distinct individual from the mother herself (see Num. 6:7; Gen. 3:20; Luke 1:60). A woman who has conceived, even if the child is not yet born and even if it dies before birth, is a "mother."
        Luke 1:41,44 Elizabeth conceived (v. 24), and the life "in her womb" is called a "babe" or "baby" (Greek BREPHOS). This is the second-most-common New Testament word for a baby. It is always used for that which is a human individual separate and distinct from its mother (see Luke 2:12,16; Acts 7:19.)
        Luke 1:36 Again, the life conceived in Elizabeth's womb, before it was born, is called "a son." The word "son" (Greek HUIOS), in contexts that refer to the physical offspring of humans, always refers to that which is a human individual separate and distinct as an individual from its parents. It is the most common New Testament word for a "son" (see Matt. 1:21,23,25; Luke 1:13,31; 2:7; etc.)

        All this scripture clearly shows that the bible says the unborn are humans beings.  Since the bible also states that you cannot murder Human beings, it means you cannot abort the unborn.

        Again, this is why pro choice folks like myself are repulsed by Christians because you cannot be christain and be pro choice.  Black and White.

      •  This is correct. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Philpm, tobendaro, golconda2, nokkonwud

        There is no prohibition against "abortion" per se and it was not considered killing in the OT. Second of all it was not considered a clear case of "killing" a human being until very late in human history--post the invention of doctors actually which is quite late. And thirdly, of course, the christian church and its followers have shown themselves marvellously willing to kill men, women, children, and fetuses whenever it struck them as a good idea. Until the Catholic church renounces all forms of death/killing it can kiss my ass on the abortion question.

        aimai

    •  Oh please. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RunawayRose, ALL, nokkonwud, virginwoolf

      First off, yes the CATHOLIC Church is stridently Pro-Life.

      2nd off, here's a list of Pro-Choice churches:

      Federation of Reconstructionist Congregations and Havurot,
      Moravian Church in America-Northern Province,
      Presbyterian Church (USA),
      Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
      Unitarian Universalist Association
      United Church of Christ (sound familiar?)
      United Methodist Church
      American Baptist Churches (*basically* Pro-Choice)

      3rd off, most Catholics don't live on every word of the Pope and make their own informed political decisions.

      4th - You're an IDIOT for inadvertently buying the Right-Wing, Faux Newz lies about "all REAL Christians" being this or that.

      Oh and for the record, I'm a rebellious Catholic who wouldn't opt for an abortion in a personal circumstance, yet I support Roe v. Wade because I don't believe in forcing the fervent beliefs of one religion onto a secular country and women who may not share my views. Have a nice day.

      "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

      by TheHalfrican on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:38:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Are you sure the saying isn't you can't be Xtian (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      golconda2
      and capable of independent intelligent thought?

      Taking guidance from an ancient tome of mythology is one thing, but believing it word for word or allowing it to define current scientific thought is another.

      "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

      by Boisepoet on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 03:08:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If you live anywhere near Trumbull, let me know. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, seattlegirl
    I know exactly how you feel. I too for many years attended what my wife and we called "the Church of the Holy Convenience". (OK, so we were notg regular attenders).  About seven years ago we switched to a different church and have grown as a family and in our relationship with Jesus. You and your wife would be most welcome.

    The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me' MT 25:40

    by Ed G on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:25:06 PM PDT

  •  Tonight, this Pagan will light ... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SilverWings, denig, Philpm, jessical, golconda2

    ... a green Healing candle for Sondra.

    Best wishes for finding a suitable faith community!

    "When reality bites, bite back!" ~ The Werewolf Prophet, resident loopy guru of Prophecy Street.

    by The Werewolf Prophet on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:25:42 PM PDT

  •  i'm sorry to hear this, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Greg in TN, Philpm

    as a former Catholic.  One suggestion: any local Jesuits?

  •  That sucks. My Catholic parish is as left as it (9+ / 0-)

    gets.

    Our priest is more anti-war than probably most of the people on this site....opposed invading Afghanistan....him and some parishioners actually broke into a draft board office in the 70s and poured lamb's blood on the draft records. They coulda did time but Father gave the summation at the end of the trial instead of the attorney....admitted to the crime, explained WHY they did it and WHY they opposed Vietnam. Got acquitted. The press called them the "Camden 28".

    (there's openly gay parishioners too. don't tell the cardinal, shhhhhhhhhhhhh....)

    "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

    by TheHalfrican on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:27:13 PM PDT

    •  we are hoping (4+ / 0-)

      there is a church in our area with that kind of reputation...the priest is even rumored to have a partner...think we'll check that one out next...thanks for the encouragement

      Blue is blue and must be that. But yellow is none the worse for it - Edith Sidebottom

      by kenwards on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:29:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Try the United Church of Christ (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Philpm, golconda2
      •  Please don't take away from your experience (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus, Philpm, extradish

        that all Catholic parishes are the same.  I belong to an extremely liberal, social-justice parish in Minneapolis.  We have transitional program for homeless familes, lots of community action and interfaith coordination with the other downtown faiths.

        Some feel the way to change things is to leave the Church, and some of us feel that we can still work to change it from within.  It may be a hopeless cause, but some parishes (and diosceses) are closer than others...

        "If the good Lord had intended for us to walk, He wouldn't have invented roller skates." - Willy Wonka

        by RethinkEverything on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:43:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  in the meantime (0+ / 0-)

        check out Call to Action, www.cta-usa.org, Association for the Rights of Catholics in the Church, Corpus, Pax Christi, Catholics United Against the War, and other nonprofits. It ain't the building she's in that makes a person Catholic. Every baptized Catholic is a priest. Check out Canon Law 212. Don't just walk away, walk away LOUD, put a note in the collection basket. What have you got to lose? Tell them LOUD why you are disgusted. Instead of giving money to this parish, send a check to one of the nonprofits above, and start reading. There is a community of likeminded folks out there.

  •  Prayers for Sondra (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SilverWings, MKS, Hastur, Philpm
    One of my favorite "Twilight Zone" episodes, involves a dog helping a man choose between Heaven & Hell.

    The way in which the decision is made is the "twist" of the plot.

    "The Hunt" from 1962, written by Earl Hamner Jr.

    Have you clicked on a John McCain link today?

    by Greg in TN on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:28:22 PM PDT

  •  More tempting than walking out........ (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    golconda2

    Fake a seizure or heart attack........cry out in pain, writhe in pain on the floor.......

    --------------or.....
    Show up next time with several huge albums of photos of unwanted babies who haven't been adopted......Make people adopt the babies. Make them donate money.

    -------or to homes for unwed mothers.....
    This one looks 'kosher':
    http://www.catholic.org/...

    --------------------or......
    Go back to the same church with a copy of the Pope's words (pick any Pope) about living life to the natural end....anti-death penalty message.

    Practice.
    Stand up at the appropriate time to remind whoever is speaking that he left out the good part.........and shout it to the rafters......

    Media Reform Action Link http://stopbigmedia.com/

    by LNK on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:29:35 PM PDT

  •  Do you know that dog spelled backwards (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Gardener
    is Yougottabekiddingme.    

    You guys really sit through that garbage for your dog?  I'd understand it if they held mass in a park and she got to roll around in the grass with you.  

    I was raised Catholic, twelve years of parochial school and mass every Sunday and holy day.  But that's because I was a child and I didn't know what hypocricy was.  

    Sorry.  I'm like your wife.  Too close to it not be be pissed off.  

  •  Our Ajax had a splenic tumor (3+ / 0-)

    We lost him on Mother's Day.  My wife has a small statue of St. Francis (she is Catholic) in our backyard.  When Ajax was ailing he would often lay down next to the statue....Just said prayer for you, your wife and Sondra....

  •  Who would Jesus vote for? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hastur, Philpm, ThompsonLazyBoy

    Sorry Mr. Christ , you are not registered. No photo I.D. Perhaps an illegal immigrant ? You should know how these arrests turnout during a Republican administration.. How about a couple of Wall Street CEO's nailed on each side. We've plenty.

  •  I can't remember the scriptures used at church (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, RethinkEverything

    yesterday, but one of the examples my minister gave was Milton Hershey and how he shared his wealth.
    :-)  Although he wasn't "specific" about his choice for President,  by the tone of his sermon I would guess he's voting Obama.   I know my Assoc. Minister and DCE are voting O/B.  

    I didn't know Christians don't believe animals have souls.  I missed that one somewhere along the way.....

    Prayers for Sondra!

  •  A dollar... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    golconda2

    ...boy you are generous.  After that if I hadn't actually interrupted the sermon I would have left the dirtiest messed up bent penny in my pocket in the collection bin.

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:34:36 PM PDT

  •  The Catholic Church continues to lose more and (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hastur, Old Gardener, golconda2

    more parishoners just like the GOP continues to lose members of their party. Like the GOP, the catholic church mandates conforming to their ways or else they will pass judgment on you and cast stones in your path because you are a lesser or bad person (terrorist) in the eyes of the catholic church. The catholic heirarchy is filled with hypocrites who only care about power, wealth and the false image of goodness while a majority of them act in evil ways, which is very similar to most in the republican party!!!

    •  Very shallow and uneducated comment, (0+ / 0-)

      and factually untrue. Geez. Better comments, please.

      I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization.--Oliver Wendell Holmes

      by Timaeus on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:47:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  the real killer is contraception (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      golconda2

      I don't see the Church ever changing on abortion, but their stance on contraception surprised many people when it was announced. Most other churches dropped their opposition when contraception became safe. They'll loosen up on that eventually. It will take a WHILE though - when your organization is well over a 1,000 years old, you tend to change slllllllllllllooooooooooooowwwwwwwwlllllllllyyyyyyyy.

      "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

      by TheHalfrican on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:47:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I may get slammed for this (7+ / 0-)

    and I am pro-choice, non-Catholic, anti-war, progressive, and haven't stepped foot in church for years, but Catholic priests in South and Central America spoke out against their government abuses and some were killed for it. Is it ok to be political from the pulpit or for a priest to speak out if you happen to agree with what they're saying? I don't like the point of view of the priest in this diary, either. But it seems there are two sides to this.

    And feel free to talk me down.

    •  interesting point (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Philpm, virginwoolf, johngoes

      is it an abuse of power simply because we disagree with the pronouncement? or because they choose to cross the line on only this one issue? They talk about their values and beliefs concerning other issues - they just don't take any politicians or their supporters to task over them. Just this one. No politician was ever threatened with not being served communion, or a voter threatend with committing a sin, because they are pro-death penalty, for example.

      Blue is blue and must be that. But yellow is none the worse for it - Edith Sidebottom

      by kenwards on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:39:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's a good point. Have not formulated all my (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Philpm
      thoughts to provide the cogent comment that you deserve, but want you to know that your intelligent post is respected.

      Former soldier. Fighting for my country. Every day.

      by SilverWings on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:46:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What you are describing (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      virginwoolf

      actually goes along with the social justice teachings of Catholicism and is considered quite acceptable.  Tyranny is anathema to Catholic teachings.

      I wish I'd spent my $3.99 on a dollar bill.

      by Philpm on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:52:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You make a good point but my issue is not with (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      golconda2

      the fact that they have and express a point of view but that they try to blackmail people with threats to their faith and salvation.  Considering the history of most churches(but especially the Catholic Church) they do not have a leg to stand on with this kind of self-righteous crap.  I went to Catholic School for eight years and I always wondered why if Jesus preached continuously against the accumulation of wealth, why all the chalices and vestments were covered in gold.  Jesus was a poor carpenter...it never made sense and trust me I asked the nuns for an explanation.  They were glad to see me leave.

    •  It's not immoral to speak out (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      virginwoolf

      on issues from the pulpit, but the US tax code is the US tax code. You don't risk losing your tax-exempt status if you say "abortion is wrong", but you do if you say "vote Republican".

    •  Telling point - to God any sin is unacceptable... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      virginwoolf

      So for a preacher to stand at the pulpit telling you that one sin is worse than the other and to choose on on his opinion is wrong theologically. In that case, neither party is right (war vs abortion) and we might as well not vote.

      However, I believe (without substantive biblical support) that we have a moral obligation to vote, to choose between the lesser evil. In that case I look at the whole picture, keeping Jesus' words and actions in mind. This comment is not to place to tell every biblical support I have for supporting Obama over McCain, but in my heart, which I share with Jesus, Obama is the person who's attitude exhibits the traits of a servant after God's heart.

      "People the world over have always been more impressed by the power of our example than by the example of our power." Bill Clinton

      by johngoes on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 04:11:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it is not okay (0+ / 0-)

      to tell Americans how to vote, or to threaten them with hellfire for a vote. It is against our irs code and it is disengenuous and hypocritical, thus sinful.
      It is okay for an educated pastor in a poor country to rail against the murder of his people and to promote the social gospel from his pulpit. The social gospel is outlined in the Beatitudes, Matthew 5-7, and it is a broad, whole-life gospel, with something for everyone. If the gospel doesn't relate to actual human life, then it is meaningless.  
      It is also okay to be pro-life, but it is not okay to be an ignoramus about what that means. Does it mean abortion is a crime and the mother is going to jail, possibly to receive the death sentence? does it mean an American's right to privacy is null and void? they haven't thought it out.

  •  I don't mean to harsh your mellow (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Gardener, golconda2

    But you actually should have gotten up and walked out. And if you'd turned back and said "we can't stay here and listen to this abuse of power, and abuse of your duty as a priest to lead this flock" that would have been better.  Get off your duffs and do more than vote with your feet--every day that the catholic hierarchy is allowed to bully the american people and threaten them with hellfire is another day lost, for the church and its people. I suggest you and your wife move over to the episcopalian church and send an angry letter to your (former) priest and his bishop explaining that you don't go to church to be told how to vote at an election and you certainly don't accept the words of a celibate, male, priesthood on matters pertaining to sex, life, and death.  Show some spine and fight back. Folding that dollar bill up and throwing it in was childish and useless.

    aimai

  •  I'll keep Sondra in my prayers. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SilverWings, Philpm

    Thank you for sharing your story. I have a female Lab too and I adore her. And I've voted for Obama in early elections in Colorado.

  •  On another note, I will keep Sondra (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SilverWings

    in my prayers.  No need to go to church, take Sondra on a walk if she can tolerate it and lift up your thanks in silent prayer, he will hear you.  

  •  Yeah... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hastur, Philpm, Old Gardener, golconda2

    The priest who spoke at my mother's funeral reminded me of why all of us kids left the church.

  •  You can pray to God anywhere (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, johngoes

    and remember that even Christ had to get out of the Temple. The "My house is a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves" gospel story is really a condemnation of anyone using the temple or the church for anything but prayer, prayers for sick dogs included. Anything that detracts from prayer has no place in church. And by prayer, I mean the private conversations we have in our heads with God from time to time, usually asking for help or forgiveness. I don't ascribe to the meaningless verbiage that passes for prayer in many Christian churches. I have even less use for the venom that spews forth from pulpits all across this country every Sunday. When was the last time you ever heard anything that even approached the Sermon on the Mount? I think most real Christians would have felt exactly as you felt.  

  •  Check out the "Rainbow Bridge" site (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, golconda2

    ...there they don't care what religion you practice or what your politics are...you and your pet will be included in prayers if asked.

    For ill pets you want to go here: http://petloss.com/...

    There's also links there if, God forbid, your puppy pass on..including a beautiful candle light ritual done every Monday night in honor of those pets who have passed on to the other side of the "bridge."

    (The Rainbow Bridge refers to a beautiful poem on the site).

    The site has been around for years. I have used it. I have shared it with others.

    You and your lab are in my prayers. :)

    sr

  •  That doesn't sound like anything worth (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RethinkEverything

    objecting to to me.  The liturgy is the same for Catholic churches all across the country, so in my church yesterday the homily was also about the "render under Caesar" gospel story, and the priest spoke, just as you described, about various considerations in voting.

    But even though I'm in a strongly Republican area (of a strongly Democratic state), the priest went way out of his way to be balanced and neutral.  The church bulletin contained a lengthy flyer from the bishops describing many different considerations for Catholics as they consider voting.  It was SCRUPULOUSLY designed not to favor either side.

    In fact, I thought it was rather heavily tilted toward the Democrats, if you actually READ it.  For example, it made a great emphasis on the point that it is not enough to simply oppose evil:  one must also actively do good.  And at the same time this flyer (and our wise and kindly old priest) insisted that Catholics are NOT a "one issue people," meaning abortion.

    I think the Catholic Church in the United States is being very fair about this this year, notwithstanding occasional signs of intolerance.  After all, there are hundreds of bishops and 75 million Catholics, so there are plenty of knotheads and wingnuts.

    But I predict the Catholics will go VERY solidly for Obama this year.  That's certainly what the polls are showing so far.

    And the genuinely enlightended church teaching has had a positive role in that.

    I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization.--Oliver Wendell Holmes

    by Timaeus on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:44:23 PM PDT

  •  I hope Sondra is doing well. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm

    I'm sorry to hear about your experience in church. I know where you're coming from. I also was born and raised Catholic.  I drifted away in my early twenties due to my view's on women's rights and sex ed. I guess you could say I believe in God, but I don't believe in religion.  Yesterday was my second time attending services at a Unitarian Universalist Church. I've decided on becoming a member.  It's an all inclusive church- heavy in community work. Their website is UUA.org

  •  These priests and bishops need to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm

    read their own document (pdf).  It's pretty clear if one reads the whole thing that intrinsic evil includes all issues of life, including poverty, war, etc.  It's up to each person to  search his/her conscience and balance all the issues.  If one were to act strictly according to the document, s/he couldn't vote for either candidate.  THAT is not an option.  The bishops were very clear - about being ambiguous.

    -7.62, -7.28 "We told the truth. We obeyed the law. We kept the peace." - Walter Mondale

    by luckylizard on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:45:24 PM PDT

  •  The labels of this argument are divisive (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, johngoes

    Pro-Choice vs. Pro-Life
    It really should be Pro-Choice vs. Anti-Choice.
    I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who is pro-abortion. Everyone should be working towards the common goal of reducing the number of abortions.

    •  i agree (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joy Busey, Philpm, AngryFinn, johngoes

      but "pro abortion" was exactly the term used by the priest...and all 'pro lifers' of course...they don't want to focus on the choice aspect

      Blue is blue and must be that. But yellow is none the worse for it - Edith Sidebottom

      by kenwards on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:51:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Alas, I have seen no real evidence... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AngryFinn

        ...that human life has ever been considered "precious" by religions or governments. Sure, religions historically want more of themselves and less of everyone else, so they embrace gods that demand genocides and wars and priests who demand crusades, etc. And for all the ambiguous wording of scriptures, there is the actual evidence of history to counter - it's not humans who are precious, it's specific classes of True Believers. Everybody else is going to hell, which is where their so-worshipful god sends all those not-precious humans who aren't in his little club.

        ...which is not to suggest that there aren't highly spiritual 'holy' men and women in all generations whose gentleness and conduct makes real the best interpretations of the best Teachers. Some of them even belong to religions. They are exceptions - not rules - unfortunately.

        Maybe people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw bibles.

        by Joy Busey on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 03:49:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Bless your little doggie (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm

    and I'm sorry that your need for spiritual comfort and support was highjacked by a politicized sermon.  I left church for that reason, too.

    I found a spiritual community that supports what seems so obvious to me, and have succeeded in de-programming myself.  We've raised our child to be an inclusive and ethical person who loves dogs, too.

  •  Dallas and Ft. Wrth Bishops had letters (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm

    Basically, saying that the abortion issue trumps all others.

    How about this:

    Pax Christi - Catholic peace organization's take:
    http://www.paxchristiusa.org/...

    "In reality, the great majority of Catholics in the U.S., in agreement with the U.S. Catholic Bishops, understand and recognize that "the responsibility to make choices in political life rests with each individual in light of a properly formed conscience," and that "the Church is involved in the political process but is not partisan." ("Faithful Citizenship," U.S. Catholic Bishops, 2007)."

    THAT is the teaching of the church, and each of us is to use our God-given reason and judgment in voting.  However, individuals (including our bishops here in Dallas and Fort Worth) can differ in their interpretation of what the US Conference of Bishops actually have said.  But that requires the intellect and reason to be exercised in coming to a conclusion about how to vote (see the Bishop's letter in the Scranton PA dicese, diaried previously here on DKos).

  •  As my user name indicates (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm
    I'm a "dog person"--and my sympathy goes out to you, your wife, and Sondra.  Our "fur kids", as somebody here at DKos called them, are so much a part of our lives--just like "human kids" are.  They're members of our family and it's really tough when they're sick or when the end comes.  May your time remaining with Sondra be filled with good memories.  

    As far as the church situation--I understand very well what you're dealing with.  I'm Catholic; husband is not; I quit going to church many years ago--just could not take the hypocrisy any longer.  I had 16 years of Catholic education--many of which I value to this day and always will.  I am looking more and more for a church where I and my spouse will feel at home, however.  We had that for awhile in a church in a nearby city; then a new bishop came in and he is exactly like the priest you described.  The diocese is in an uproar; the priests have formed their own "group" because he treats them like children who are badly in need of a beating (verbally only so far); and his smarmy, icky attitude of "I'm right and the rest of you are now non-believers and sadly I must herd you all back into the sheepfold" makes my skin crawl.  I can't continue on in the church but I'm also having a very hard time finding a place I can feel at home.  My sympathy to your wife--I know how she feels.  I don't really want to cut the cord completely but I can't sit in a pew weekly and tolerate what now passes for a sermon in too many Catholic churches.  I do know that more and more I'm realizing, I can't go back unless/until something very drastic would change.  This is NOT the Catholic church I grew up in and truly loved at one time.  I still love my faith--but not the church.  Here's to your wife and you and my husband and me finding the "right" place to be where we can truly feel at home.

  •  Hi. Obama was invited to the Al Smith dinner in (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm

    NYC, a Catholic event.  Tell the priest.  I grew up in a mixed Jewish (me) and Italian Catholic area of Brooklyn, long long ago.  My husband is, like me, a Brooklyn Dodgers fan who became Mets fans in 1985 for me (a bit earlier for him).  Full disclosure: I'd never have married him if he was a Yankee fan.  I have my limits, chuckle.  I just wanted to give you some support.  I hope the dog is doing well. All the best to your wife. (I still hate the Yankees.)  But I do feel like people on DK are political "family".

  •  Bunch-a love for Sondra (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, kenwards

    Hope she recovers quickly!

    I'm a baptized catholic who used to serve mass as an altar server every Sunday with her brother growing up. I know how hard it is to be a committed catholic in these times when you have a whole congregation and a priest who don't quite share your politial beliefs.

    It has taken me 10 years, many life experiences and a relationship with God outside of the conventional church to realize that I don't need to go sit, neal and stand before a priest to have a connection and a conversation with God. I can have it anywhere, at any time. God never shuts his ears to you.

    I believe Jesus was a peace-loving dude that was compassionate and understanding. I think he would understand if I had to make a choice on abortion that I would be making the best choice I know possible. Be it for or against. I think Jesus would vote for Obama..honestly.

    Peace be with you, in all that you do!

    "Your denial is beneath you, and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs, I see through you"-Bill Hicks

    by SyntheticHumanGirl on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 03:04:04 PM PDT

  •  Yes, I just sat thru my second sermon in our (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    golconda2, johngoes

    parish urging us to vote against Proposition 2 (stem cell research) here in Michigan.  We already got a mailing and a DVD in the mail.  I haven't told my husband yet (he is more devoted than I am to going to mass every week) but I don't plan to go to mass again until after the election.  Just can't take it.

    And I belong to a "liberal" parish.

    I'm hanging on to the Catholic church by a thread.

  •  Well good grief... (0+ / 0-)

    You don't have to go to a church to pray or talk to God!
    You're just encouraging those phony preachers when you sit through their diatribes about "what God wants" and "who God loves" and "who is GUILTY..."
    A direct connection to the Divine is in each of us, we do NOT need interventions and helps from middle men to talk to God.
    The church is about power and control of your life...you should have learned that by now.
    Why ignore the truths about that preacher?
    Ask the DOG.

  •  Just quit going. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    golconda2

    Church (or similar) attendance isn't mandatory to believe or practice any religion. Organized religion has so many times become a poison rather than a help to people or society. I wish more people would walk rather than muttering under their breath and putting up with this kind of destructive propaganda.

    What bothers me much more than what some of the churches in the U.S. tell their members to do it is that they are going out and demanding all of society must do it too.

    When the head of the local Catholic churches goes in front of the media demanding that we ban all contraception why am I supposed to tolerate it? I'm supposed to not say anything or speak ill of these people while they try to take away my rights and force me to follow their religion? My live and let live in general towards churches in this country is starting to become fuck the lot of them.

  •  You do realize that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    golconda2

    by staying and donating the dollar, you were in effect endorsing what the priest was saying, right? You know that old saw about what evil needs to flourish, right? To flourish, evil needs good people to sit and do nothing.

    My mom is Catholic and while I am most decidedly not, I had a great deal of respect for her priest and would occasionally attend Mass. Then I found out her priest covered up several rapes committed by one of the other priests and I haven't set foot in the church since. When Father Mac asked me why he hadn't seen me around, I told him the truth, that I would not listen to a hypocrite.

    I hope Sondra comes through surgery all right.

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