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If we're going to continue excoriating the bigotry of blacks and talking about how much more bigoted they are than everyone else. Let's discuss where those numbers came from. What is an exit poll? According to CNN

Exit polls are surveys of a small percentage of voters taken after they leave their voting place. Pollsters use this data to project how all voters or segments of voters side on a particular race or ballot measure.

First let's look at how some exit polls are created via Forbes created. If we can't trust this link, we can trust Nate Silver's reasons for why we should ignore exit polls.

Now that we know what an exit poll is. Let's take a deeper look at how they are created. Nate Silver says

  1. Exit polls have a much larger intrinsic margin for error than regular polls. This is because of what are known as cluster sampling techniques. Exit polls are not conducted at all precincts, but only at some fraction thereof. Although these precincts are selected at random and are supposed to be reflective of their states as a whole, this introduces another opportunity for error to occur (say, for instance, that a particular precinct has been canvassed especially heavily by one of the campaigns). This makes the margins for error somewhere between 50-90% higher than they would be for comparable telephone surveys.

With this in mind let's look at those numbers people are quoting for African American votes from CNN. CNN says they polled 2,240 people. Assuming they weighted those numbers proportionally, and took 10% of the entire vote, only 224 black people were questioned for the exit poll. Of those 224 black people about 158.6 voted for the marriage ban. So we have a situation where many people who are rightfully angry about having their rights taken away, are now blaming the results of 156.8 black people for the entire black voting population of California. These people do not even represent a percent of black voters, and yet they are being held up as proof of "homophobia and bigotry being worse in the black community." And how blacks are much more "bigoted" than any other group. Do you understand how narrow and short sighted this appears to people who are analyzing not just the percentages but the hard data.

Of the 78% of people who say they were not contacted by either initiative, 54% of those people voted Yes on the ban. Does this mean that Prop 8's outreach sucked? Not necessarily. If we use these same numbers we can also see that %5 percent of sampled voters were gay, which is an under-representation for the actual number of gay people in California. Does this mean that gay people didn't turn out to vote? No.

If you look at those numbers by income, it was overwhelming voted for by people between the 50k-150k range. Do we then decide that it was all the middle class people who are homophobic. You have a righteous anger, and an incredible struggle.. but these numbers don't prove overwhelming homophobia in the black community. We have homophobia in our community, we are not more homophobic than any other community. They don't prove blacks overwhelmingly denying you your rights and they certainly don't prove that black people in any way deserve the racist diatribes being written on the site.

Originally posted to no refuge in english on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:22 AM PST.


When these numbers are placed into context does it change your initial reaction to the exit poll numbers.

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Comment Preferences

    •  You could do that with any poll (6+ / 0-)

      And claim that the views expressed are only those of the immediate people interviewed.  Some do.

      But the fact is that these are samples of a large population, and within scientifically determinable limits small samples betray the larger characteristics of the population they are taken from.

      That's why we pay attention to polls at all.  That's why we found that, overall, there was a pretty good degree of accuracy in polls taken this election -- it was possible to characterize the likely outcome several days out.

      There is probably a higher margin of error for this exit poll.  But even if it's ridiculously high, let's say 10%, the numbers themselves are so obviously skewed that they cannot but reflect a parallel skewing in the population sampled.  It might not be exactly 70-30.  It might be 60-40. (Or, for that matter, it might be 80-20.)  But it's very difficult to argue that the skewing doesn't exist at all.

      •  The laws of statistics assure us that a sample (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ExStr8, condorcet, MariaWr, BFSkinner, ribofunk

        of even just 150 people will come very close to the actual facts for the whole population in question.  The only way this could not be true is if, and to the extent that, the sample was not randomly chosen.

        The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

        by lysias on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:34:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  No these samples aren't of a large population (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sebastianguy99, MariaWr

        I just wrote that they took 2240 voters in total, that means in all. Of that 2240 voters, 224 sampled may be black. It's not arguing that the skewing doesn't exist, it's arguing that the skewing is there but that it is not definitive of anything because it doesn't tell us where these numbers are taken from.

        If the numbers are taken from a polling place that is a church, how does that color our perception of the numbers? If it's taken from a school how does it change? If it's taken in a predominantly middle class neighborhood how does it change. I'm telling you there are only 224 black voters in which to base, "You are the most homophobic community on!" How could we be guaranteed that we wouldn't receive this from polling 224 white people?

  •  Can you summarize what you are saying? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Is it that somemone has blamed the Yes of proposition 8 on African Americans? Who has done that? And you are saying this is not correct? Sorry but I find your diary a bit difficult to follow.

  •  the only good news for the right: (8+ / 0-)

    is not the passage of prop 8, but rather the chance that the rest of us will aim our righteous anger at each other, instead of where it needs to go.

    "I made the wrong mistakes" --Thelonious Monk

    by theloniously on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:31:03 AM PST

  •  I am African-American and I have to (14+ / 0-)

    let you all know that the majority of the black community is socially conservative.  Knowing that fact is why Ken Mehlman and Rove were trying to make in roads into the black community in 2004.  In 2004 in Ohio in fact they did make in roads in that community.

    I am live in California and voted No on 8 but I have to say many African-Americans did not.  

    Obama: "Because We Won... We Have to Win." 6/6/08

    by Drdemocrat on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:32:41 AM PST

  •  Gay hatemonger on "Sirius Out Q in the morning" (5+ / 0-)

    is the only person I have heard that tried to blame the blacks (particularly the black female) for the failure of the vote no campaign.  You have to keep in mind that this gay radio host has always had a problem with Obama from the beginning, he has called him all kinds of names.  This gay radio host is also one of those Hillary supporters and was "angry" when Obama beat her in the primaries.

  •  It's a small sample (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lazybum, ribofunk

    you shouldn't assume a fair correlation to the larger population.
    However, black folks that vote might be more likely to be churchgoers as well. Just sayin'.

    Whatever the Repuglicans say, the truth is the opposite.

    by MariaWr on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:36:35 AM PST

    •  I completely agree with you, but this is what's (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sebastianguy99, lazybum, Roberlin

      being assumed. Have you not read the last day of comments here on Dkos? About how blacks are the biggest homophobes and we have to not support them until they support us. When you put the numbers in context and you realize that it's a subset and not 70% of the black voting population of California.. it seems somewhat callous to make those sorts of comments and use that anger and fear. I can link you to some right now if you haven't seen any.

      •  Yes, I've seen them... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sebastianguy99, ribofunk

        ..and again, this was put on the ballot for just this purpose. Foster division among those who did not vote for McSame.  We're a very big tent, you know.

        Whatever the Repuglicans say, the truth is the opposite.

        by MariaWr on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:50:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think it's pretty... (5+ / 0-)

        Well established, in poll after poll (and I'm not talking about exit polls) that whites were against Prop H8, Latinos were evenly split, and blacks were overwhelmingly for it.

        Denying this doesn't change anything, and in fact it is very dangerous.  There is rampant homophobia in the black community - it exists, and it is inescapable.  Any African American can tell you that, really.

        Does that mean we should blame blacks and say I'm not in it for civil rights anymore?  No, and I really don't believe anyone has said that.  If they have, they're an idiot.  But don't conflate me with them, because I know that African Americans are more homophobic than the general population (almost exclusively due to religious issues).

        I will not deny that knowledge, as it is a fact, and it is one that no amount of browbeating and shame-mongering will make me feel differently about.  

        We have to fix this Black-Church gay bigotry, and we have to do it now.

        In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
        -Yogi Berra

        by joehoevah on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:52:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am not disagreeing that there is homophobia in (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          black community, what I'm saying is that using this number to demonize black people isn't helpful. In poll after poll, depends on the time being polled as early 2004 an on blacks were "right in the middle" on those exit polls.

          Yes, people have said that.. I'll show you here and his sentiment is echoed by many more. There are hundreds of comments like this on the site right now. It's not up to outsiders to fix "Black Church gay bigotry" because it's not really a job that can be done by you. The framework doesn't allow for it.

          By the way you can't possibly know that blacks are more homophobic because what informs more homophobic is based on normalized views of what homophobia is based on the majority culture. That doesn't say more homophobia, it says we're able to recognize it better when it happens in other cultures. Are black men more misogynistic than white men? The answer is you can't measure it because some forms of misogyny are so ingrained in our culture that they are norms. We can recognize people calling women bitches in rap songs, but we don't so much when Johnny Cash says he wants to kill Delia. That's because one of those is acceptable and the other is not.

          •  You still haven't found... (0+ / 0-)

            An example of anyone 'demonising' black people.  You call it demonization when really it is just startled acceptance of the FACTS.  We need to work on this ASAP, not shove it under the rug and pretend it is bigotry itself.  It's not.

            In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
            -Yogi Berra

            by joehoevah on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 06:01:46 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Bullshit (0+ / 0-)

        When you put the numbers in context and you realize that it's a subset and not 70% of the black voting population of California..

        •  Not bullshit.. (0+ / 0-)

          Prove that it's bullshit. I gave you the numbers of how many people were exit polled.. 2,240, of that we can assume 10% were black as that would be proportional. So that is 224 people. Of those 224, how are they indicative of the black community's vote as a whole?

  •  It's the churches, (5+ / 0-)

    Evangelical churches came out overwhelmingly against gay marriage.

    Same was true of evangelical white churches.

    It's not blacks who are the problem, it's evangelicals.  The black sub-set of this group just has more irony given its own history of discrimination.

  •  Stupid Exit Polls (6+ / 0-)

    Why turn a religious movement by the Mormon church into race-hating?  Wouldn't they just love that?  There was a time these Mormons wouldn't let blacks be elders, priests or deacons in their church -- until social pressure at their bigotry grew so great in the public square that they had a "revelation" from their prophet at the time.

    I remember when that happened.

    A lot of people in this country have problems with the idea of gay marriage, and pinning the anger on a racial group just because they've had their own problems with bigotry and "should know better" is bs.

    Ugly bs.  And self-destructive for the GLBT community.  

    "It's what you think you know that just ain't so that will get you into trouble." --Will Rogers

    by winterbanyan on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:42:08 AM PST

    •  You're missing the point... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      And a large part of the data.  The exit polls aren't the only source of this news, sorry to say.  

      Ignoring the problem is a bigger problem in and of itself.

      In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
      -Yogi Berra

      by joehoevah on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:53:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Outreach should be considered. nt (3+ / 0-)

    Whatever the Repuglicans say, the truth is the opposite.

    by MariaWr on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:43:06 AM PST

    •  Um, I don't think outreach works.... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ExStr8, joehoevah, ribofunk

      ... with the kind of people who think a reasonable argument is "The Bible says so."  

      But you're welcome to convince me otherwise.  

      •  It does believe it or not.. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sebastianguy99, Alohilani

        when I was fundraising in Seattle for a male AIDs hospice, I called my grandmother who was raised in the church. At the time she was 76 years old and I told her about how gay men who had AIDs were treated and asked her if she believed that this was fair treatment. She said, it wasn't and she said they should be treated equally and also have access to their partner's healthcare. This was 10 years ago, but the point is she is 70 years strong in the church (80 years now) and when what was at stake was explained to her, she agreed.

  •  Let's also think culturally about it (5+ / 0-)

    Black people have by and large been a highly evangelical part of our culture. I would guess mainly because the idea that there is a better reward for you than this life is an appealing one when it seemed the country is trying to knock you down.

    The great difference between most white evangelicals and black evangelicals, and I apologize for generalizing, is that the black evangelical church focused much much more on issues like social justice, poverty, and community than the social conservative mores. Those are usually the top issues for voting.

    But if a wedge social issue comes up by itself on the ballot, not connected to a candidate, like most churches the black evangelical churches are usually highly social conservative. It's unfortunate, but something I hope will improve under an Obama residency, as he talks about equal rights for all.

    I think gay civil rights are about where black civil rights were in the 1940's. For instance very soon I think gay men and women will be fully integrated into our troops for the first time. I think it will be 10-15 years before they have full marriage rights.

    When I think about how this is generally not an issue for young people, I also have to wonder... when I'm old, who am I going to discriminate against? What new social more will I be resisting changing? I hope I'm a lot more understanding than the last generation(and I apologize for generalizing). I hope I'm as liberal as my kids are, when that day comes.

    •  Here's what I think.. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sebastianguy99, ExStr8, Goldie Taylor

      I think that gay civil rights will fail as long as it tries to frame itself to blacks as a new civil rights movement. For 1) I don't think how many people realize that there's a significant minority in the black community that questions the value of integration, 2) Is against interracial marriage, 3) A majority that consider the civil rights movement still very active.

      •  Civil rights means civil rights. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Manny, homogenius, ExStr8, joehoevah, ribofunk

        Civil rights does not mean just black rights.  

      •  What??????? (0+ / 0-)

        Maybe you could elaborate?

        •  Within our communities we still have people who (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          argue the value of the civil rights movement on black people's lives. They argue on the basis of the three things I mentioned, that's why I think framing it as a civil rights movement might also be what is impeding the process within our own communities.

          How can I explain that there are some black people who believe that things were better when blacks were segregated because they held more of their economic wealth and independence? You have people who believe that integration is the worse thing that happened to the black community. So when you frame an argument to them like this they're not going to go along with it.

          It sounds crazy, because I've reduced it to the very simple argument, but there are serious people academics and not who argue for the creation of all black communities and self-segregation so as to control their own wealth.

          How can I explain that there are some black people who do not agree with interracial marriage so Loving v. Virginia means nothing to them?  I'm not talking about our culture as a monolith, I'm saying there are subsets in our culture for whom the message of civil rights does not resonate.

        •  What I *think* NRIE is referring to... (0+ / 0-)

          A lot is assumed of AA's (of which I am a member) automatically looking at the gay marriage issue as a civil rights issue and some lightbulb collectively going off to say "Oh! This is good/wrong/what we should be for/against, etc".

          That doesn't necessarily happen and arguments aren't always won on this point because not all AA's agree with the issues in the Civil Rights movement of the 60's or the outcome.

          I think that it's also important to note that (and I've said elsewhere) many people of all races do not see the gay marriage issue as a civil rights issue because they believe it is a matter of moral choice and so in so choosing same sex partnership, there is a choice to give up "traditional" marriage.

          There is a gap (imo) of pushback that reaches everyday "religious" people that explains in clear terms that it's not a choice and shows organizations like Exodus to be more harmful than helpful. I think the idea being pushed that it can be "fixed" has to be confronted head on.

          Side note: this would really require people willing to be honest to Evangelicals that these Pray Away The Gay programs didn't work for them in a  more public forum than I've seen - ie; finding a way to reach those that only watch Xtian television/networks, because there are a lot of people that do that.

          Anyway, if people are interested in bringing around more support and dialog, that's just my two cents about what I see as part of the problem with any of the Christian opposition.

          Hatred, which could destroy so much, never failed to destroy the man who hated, and this was an immutable law. James Baldwin

          by evilene689 on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 06:58:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Obama's Black support socially conservative? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    homogenius, ribofunk

    See this article in Slate.

    What's more, [David] McCuan [a political scientist at Sonoma State University] notes, Obama talks often of his faith and his ties to the black church. As a result, "the type of voter that he brings out in the African-American community, while they vote for Obama at the top of the ticket, they'll vote against gay marriage down the ballot," he says.

    On GOTV duty Nov 1-4 in CO. Maxed out at $538 to Obama, Clinton, O2B and ActBlue.

    by randomsubu on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:45:51 AM PST

    •  I'm black, I understand this.. but at the same (5+ / 0-)

      time, you cannot possibly agree with using at 70-30 number to represent all black voters and rile anger up against one racial group on the basis that they are "more homophobic". That's really what I'm talking about, I've seem some absolutely hateful comments here about how blacks are really the problem because they allowed it to pass and they should know better.

      •  Racial hatred is unacceptable... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        joehoevah, ribofunk

        ...but the point is, the exit poll fits a (widely-held?) meme; as you yourself say, you understand that Obama's Black support may be socially conservative.
        At least the 30% says there's a substantial number of African-Americans who oppose the ban.  IF the exit poll is accurate, hopefully this minority grows.
        As I said earlier, gay rights are civil rights.  People who think gay marriage offensive should remember Mildred Loving.

        On GOTV duty Nov 1-4 in CO. Maxed out at $538 to Obama, Clinton, O2B and ActBlue.

        by randomsubu on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:54:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  This framework does not work.. this is what I (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          keep trying to tell you the reason Mildred Loving doesn't resonate as well as it should is some amount (I don't want to put an exact number) on that don't identify with the struggle of Loving or with Loving v. Virginia. So when you guys use civil rights frameworks it falls on death ears because some in our community are still arguing with themselves if the civil rights movement accomplished all that it could, should, or would.

          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

            I forget; I should expect that there are at least a few in the Black community who were/are against interracial marriage as well.  [I am an (east) Indian, so I know...]

            Still, equating "civil rights" to "African-American rights" while perhaps popular within the community is not correct.  That is where a lot of work may need to be done.

            On GOTV duty Nov 1-4 in CO. Maxed out at $538 to Obama, Clinton, O2B and ActBlue.

            by randomsubu on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:43:33 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  The Biased Venting Will Be a Good Thing Overall (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        You can't heal what you can't talk about.

        I had the same thought even as I cringed all the appalling things white people were saying about Obama and other brown-skinned people during the run-up to Tuesday.

        In the long run, it's a good thing when people own up to their biases. How else can they work at overcoming them?

  •  What's REALLY telling is that there are two other (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sebastianguy99, MariaWr, Alohilani

    states that voted to ban Gay Marriage yesterday and not a peep about it why ? The two states in question don't have much of a Black population if any at all. I saw it on CNN. I think one was Colorado and the other OREGON!

    "Where's Trig? I hope somebody has him."~Sarah Palin on stage introducing her kids at Fl.Rally on 10.25.8

    by WeBetterWinThisTime on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:51:43 AM PST

  •  We saw the same thing in FL (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lysias, condorcet, joehoevah, ribofunk

    62% of Floridians voted for the anti-gay marriage ban in Florida, but the margin was the highest among black voters, per the Miami Herald:

    Black voters turned out in droves and, according to exit polls, supported the amendment by the greatest margin -- 71 percent to 29 percent.

    •  Did you look at the subset of those numbers (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      broken down?

      •  Why can't you just... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fcvaguy, Manny, lysias

        Accept this as a problem and work to solve it, instead of trying to force people to ignore the problem by sticking fingers in their ears and chanting 'lalalalalala' as my rights are stripped away?

        In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
        -Yogi Berra

        by joehoevah on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:59:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I accept that there is a problem.. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sebastianguy99, evilene689

          what I don't accept is that blacks are any more homophobic than any other ethnic group. Meaning I don't think Asians are more homophobic, Latinos are more homophobic or whites. I think we are a micrcosmic subset of what is happening in America. I will not accept that blacks are more homophobic because there is no proof for this assertion other than, "I know it, because I feel it" and even then the "proof" is skewed towards an understanding of white central notions of tolerance.

          Black gay people are less likely to move into gay communities and away from their black communities. Some of that is financial and some of that is because they prefer their communities. But I would not dare use that statistic to say that black people are less homophobic because black gay people don't move away from us.

          •  You're being too defensive... (0+ / 0-)

            And in the process, ignoring a very big and very real problem.  Sorry, but wake up.

            In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
            -Yogi Berra

            by joehoevah on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:52:42 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Really, I'm not. I don't know how many times I (0+ / 0-)

              have to repeat there is homophobia in the black community. I haven't been defensive in the least. I don't even say it's a small amount of homophobia, what I say is our community is no more homophobic than any other community.

              •  That's not true though. (0+ / 0-)

                The black community is more homophobic than many other ethnic communities in the United States, because of the heavily religious aspect to their culture.  Acknowledging that fact is not racist, nor is it hateful.

                Ignoring it is hateful, IMHO, and counterproductive.  How on earth can we fix the problem if we ignore it completely?

                In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
                -Yogi Berra

                by joehoevah on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:24:18 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Well said.

  •  Don't model "gay rights" after "civil rights" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BradMajors, sebastianguy99

    or "womens rights".

    The whole campaign for "gay rights" has been entirely mismanaged. Somehow its just become a "gay thing" to a lot of liberals.

    The argument needs to be re framed.

    I can tell you right now that there are a lot of liberals who feel annoyed by this very topic and would just wish the damn thing would go away.

    This gay marriage thing is a g'damn hammer for the conservatives.

    I 100% support you guys on this, but I just think its being handled in a snotty/bratty 1960's way.
    I honestly wish this wasn't a big f'ing deal, but I also feel compelled to vote against gay marriage...because I'm so tired of having to argue a "gay cause". The leaders of this movement, need to change it, make the argument more respectful to those who are faithful (despite their hate). But also see that christian evangelicals radicalized because they too, felt like they were being attacked. In fact they were ridiculed for quite a while.

    I hope someone figures out a away to make the gay marriage oponents look like the mean jerks they are. Because right now, they've framed themselves as defenders of a religious tradion....something the gay community needs to be aware of. The christian right has their biggest idealogical weapons aimed right at you, with the intent of making an example out of you.

  •  Why are you stirring this shit up? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fcvaguy, lysias, perky mcjuggs

    What's your agenda?

    In our grief, some LGBT people have reacted to this CNN exit poll with anger. It may turn out to be inaccurate. But it was the first indication of voting patterns.

    The smart thing would have been to let this go until it became a problem. LGBT people and our supporters needed some time to vent and grieve. But no, people had to jump in and start telling us what we could and could not be angry about and who we were allowed to be angry at or hold accountable. We were told to just "lie back and take it".

    Well, fuck that.

    You wanna jump down our throats when we're feeling incredibly hurt, angry, and vulnerable--you deserve what you get. Don't cry when you get the shit fight you asked for.

    Bottom line--IF (and only "if") this 70% support from African-American voters turns out to be true, then many LGBT people will rethink their support for civil rights. Some may be less willing to confront racist or ignorant statements in their presence or fight against prejudice in LGBT communities.

    Let's remember something here: African-Americans have national protection against discrimination at the federal level--we don't. They have had thousands of elected officials at all levels--we have had dozens. Their marriages are recognized--ours are not. Now we have a black president.

    Racial inequality still exists in this country. But don't be surprised if some LGBT people adjust their priorities if this 70% support turns out to be true.

    "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

    by homogenius on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:58:22 AM PST

    •  ......... (0+ / 0-)

      From above:

      I hope someone figures out a away to make the gay marriage opponents look like the mean jerks they are. Because right now, they've framed themselves as defenders of a religious tradition.


      Bottom line--IF (and only "if") this 70% support from African-American voters turns out to be true, then many LGBT people will rethink their support for civil rights. Some may be less willing to confront racist or ignorant statements in their presence or fight against prejudice in LGBT communities.

      Is there any common ground? Where do you start?

      Whatever the Repuglicans say, the truth is the opposite.

      by MariaWr on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 06:12:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is there common ground? (0+ / 0-)

        Probably not, when people like the diarists refuse to exist the "ground" even exists.

        •  You keep misconstruing my argument. (0+ / 0-)

          Not that it doesn't exist, but that statistics are being misappropriated so that people can make racist statements. You're stuck on the idea that I am saying it's not a problem, no where do I state this. I'm saying it is a problem in our community, but we are no more homophobic than any other community. I say that for all communities, when people start talking about Latin machismo and their racism comes out against Latinos.. there I am saying, that's not true. Not that there is no homophobia, just that no one community embodies all of that homophobia more than anyone else.

      •  I think there is common ground, but I think (0+ / 0-)

        part of the problem is what also happens in black communities. We've been fighting so long and we've heard all the arguments against our rights or our equality. So we can sometimes carry those war scar with us. We occasionally talk past each other, and sometimes.. The common ground literally is that we have to trust gay people enough to make their own decisions and not try to take their agency away from them. Like BFSkinner says below, this is their fight, they have to do it primarily for them, but they can use allies.

        I want marriage equality. I don't think equal rights is a zero sum game, or that politics is a game. I understand that these are people's lives. The only thing I disagree with is using one statistic to demonize a community.

    •  I don't have an agenda.. but when someone is (7+ / 0-)

      writing "Screw blacks and their struggle for civil rights, based on a poll.." I've got to say something about that. I'm not telling you to lie back and take or to do anything you don't want to do. I want you to fight for your rights. I think your anger is very righteous, but I don't want my community to become the scapegoat for something we all deserve responsibility for.

      Because you have no idea of my position on the issues. I'm a pro-gay, pro-black feminist, I can see how it seems like I'm stirring something up. I don't care if you adjust your priorities, it makes sense to do what you feel is best for you, but what is not okay is to use racial bigotry as a reason to do that on the basis of a subset of 158 people.

      You're not hearing an argument to lie back and take it, to be less radical, to do anything that you've stated her. All I'm asking is, that you look at what you're basing that opinion on and no one has looked at that. So now that it's not 70% of blacks, who had they not voted at all the ban would have still passed and who only make up 6.7% of the population of California? And there are latinos, Asians and White people voting against it.. why are we targeting black people here? What makes it so easy to go after them.

      Scale back, do what you feel you have to do to survive. I'm not afraid to confront homophobia, transphobia, or any sort of ism in my community. And I'm not afraid to be called on my own when people feel I have a blind spot.

      •  Time and place. (0+ / 0-)

        Now is not the time to get defensive.

        Sure--you can jump in and confront what you think is an unfair attitude. But don't be surprised if that makes it worse, not better.

        The smart money is on letting people vent and wait for the facts to come out. But if you want to make yourself the target by stepping on our already throbbing toes, be my guest.

        "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

        by homogenius on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:35:09 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not defensive, I'm asking a question.. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Now is definitely the time to ask people to reign back on their racial hatred that is being propped up by a sample number and used as a definitive. We can negate the black vote all together and the ban would have still passed. Where is all the anger directed at the other racial groups who have also experienced discrimination and racism by law? I'm sorry your toes are stepped on, but to say that the racial vitriol flying from some of the members on this site is okay, because they're in mourning.. is to do the exact thing you're accusing me of.

          •  Excuse me? (0+ / 0-)

            Other racial groups didn't vote 70% to take away our civil rights. We're plenty angry at mormons, evangelicals, and conservative catholics. But they don't need our support.

            This may be a sample number, but it's the only number out there. This discussion could have waited until there was information to disprove it.

            It's clear to me that you need to be right. You're invested in fighting every perceived slight and over-the-top comment you think is inappropriate. Good luck with that.

            AFAIC, you asked for an argument and you got it.

            "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

            by homogenius on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:47:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I actually didn't ask for an argument. I said (0+ / 0-)

              talk to me, that's different than argue with me. I don't need to be right. You're pronouncing things that are not true, just like you took those numbers out of context, you're taking what I'm saying to you out of context. The only numbers we have are enough to base "prejudicial" statements on that bolster how homophobic other communities are? One number.. that is in no way indicative of a community. I could use your own argument against you. In the exact same way, but I'm not going to.

              You have no definitive idea how any racial group voted, you have only an idea of how 70% of 224 people voted. You have no idea how those numbers were taken, or where or from which locations. You can't argue that, what you're arguing is, "You should have the right to feel that because you've helped us, and we should know better." You say "if", but in your anger it is already assumed they are indicative of our group.

            •  Blacks made up 10% of the vote.. (0+ / 0-)

              and you're saying they deserve 100% of your ire?

    •  Wow... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Only the second time I've ever rec'd you. Best comment I've seen on the subject.

      I'm with you. This diary pisses me off. We have a right to be angry, and good reason to be angry. Fuck these assholes that are telling us to shut up.

    •  of all the comments here (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      yours best reflects my view.

      Odd thing about the aftermath of the YES vote on prop 8, my partner and I are having a difficult time communicating our feelings about it to each other.  He's angry, I'm sad.  He's ready to blame African-Americans, I'm trying to understand what to do about it.

      But it's affected both of us a lot harder than I thought it would have.

      'It's not the greenhouse gases, it's the white house gases' - David Letterman

      by perky mcjuggs on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 06:43:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That'll work out well for everyone...nt (0+ / 0-)

      John McCain votes against Children's Healthcare

      by Hope08 on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:04:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  My point isn't that it's what should happen. (0+ / 0-)

        It's that stirring shit up right now will only make it worse. Most LGBT people who are reacting angrily are venting. While there are real problems with racial prejudice and ignorance in LGBT communities, there has also been a lot of commitment to justice and equality across the board.

        My point is that people shouldn't jump in while our last gay nerve is raw and throbbing--they're just likely to get a harsher reaction.

        The smarter reaction is less, rather than more. Let the steam blow off, find out if this statistic is accurate, and then address it.

        But jumping down people's throats is just a repeat of the McClurkin clusterfuck. There's a lot of reasons why that's not smart.

        "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

        by homogenius on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:28:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But what about what this does to our community? (0+ / 0-)

          How do you think the idea that blacks are the most homophobic will be used against us? I'm not jumping down your throat, I'm saying I've seen some truly vile things typed in the last day and those things are based on one number quoted out of context.

          •  Where's the fire? (0+ / 0-)

            What's your hurry?

            What do you have to say today that can't wait? African-Americans are celebrating a tremendous victory (even more than the rest of us), but LGBT people are mourning a trifecta of loss.

            So some people are saying some things you think are unfair--you're not big enough to take the long-term view and look at the context?

            There's a difference between being right and being wise. What's the use of being right when you only piss off more people?

            It's your choice.

            "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

            by homogenius on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:39:24 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The fire is what is going to happen to my (0+ / 0-)

              community once they are demonized as the most bigoted group. Which means, that when racism happens within my community (because this statistic is taken as the god's honest truth) it will be dismissed and used against us.

              It means here's the buttress of racism. Because it's not just unfair, it's untrue, and it's being used to further prejudice. I know how the human mind works, I know how cognitive patterns get made. I know how framing works, I know how branding works.

              I'm an African-American. I'm not celebrating a tremendous victory. I'm seeing backlash and I'm seeing it backed up by bogus numbers, and why? Because no one bothered to put the numbers in context.

              So you want to ask what's the rush, just like these are your lives, these are our lives. What happens when someone in position of power has their opinion re-enforced that blacks are more homophobic? Do they hire? Do they fire? Do they even bother looking at the resume? They now have the buttress of our "more homophobia". This is how we all affect/effect each other's lives. I would not let someone say that gays were more racist, or more likely to be pedophiles, or anything I deemed unacceptable and backed up by falsities.

            •  And you'll note I have not blame any other (0+ / 0-)

              ethnic group or demographic.

  •  Look at the actual voting results. (3+ / 0-)

       When the anti-gay-marriage amendment passed here in Michigan, the black communities in and around Detroit pretty much reflected the same opinion as the rest of the state. Wayne county (Detroit mostly) voted 54% for the measure while statewide the winning total was 58%. Only the counties of the major universities voted against the homophobic measure. The black community is no more homophobic than the population as a whole (here in Michigan). Someone who knows the voting districts of California could probably give a more accurate picture than an exit poll.    

  •  A gay white man who has been silent on this topic (10+ / 0-)

    I have not said anything on this topic before.

    I am pissed off about the vote in CA...I've written a diary about it yesterdayhere that was posted in by many of us from the out active usual WGLB gay DK crowd.

    Of course I cannot speak for all of us, just me.

    But we represent, I think, many of the active gay DK users... and I think, as a rule usually I represent the views of the group when I speak... so even though I speak for myself they would agree with the following.

    1. ALL forms of hate are wrong. Be it against blacks, gays, Asians... any hate based on group membership is wrong.
    1. Yes there are blacks who hate gays. Yes there are gays who hate blacks. Both are wrong. Both are vile. Both need to be corrected and called out for the vile nature for what they are.
    1. More then likely there were a larger proportion of blacks that supported Yes on 8 then not (acording to poll numbers.) However this is in NO means indicitive of a GROUP statement. We cannot go from a GROUP to an individual. To do so is silly. See point 2. I know many pro-gay blacks, etc. So to 'attack' a population as anti-gay as several have done, or saying XXXX led to the end of gay marriage is wrong-headed.
    1. In my diary yesterday it is my opinion that we in the gay community cannot rely on ANYONE to fight for our civil rights. We set ourselves up to fail when we put ourselves in the position of letting our fate be given to us by others. No one's freedom should be left up to others 'to decide' by popular vote. I feel, as do others, we in the gay community need action, (I suggest Queer Nation styled action, etc) however to attack one group is silly that "brought about our defeat"
    1. I am a white man. I date Asian men and in the gay community I am known as a "Rice Queen" and have been attacked/approached by many in the 'mainstream' gay community as a target for dating/being in relationships with Asian men. I've observed anti-Asian bigotry coming from gay men (black and white). This is EQUALLY as bad. I've heard anti-Asian jokes, and comments directed towards me and gay Asian men.

    So, to say gay men and women can not be as racist as heterosexuals is wrong.

    To say that blacks cannot be anti-gay is wrong.

    However to say ALL of one group is one way or another is wrong.

    We all need to realize, however we should ALL fight for human rights and be joining together when possible.

  •  I said "No" to your poll, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vita Brevis, MariaWr

    because I believed the initial numbers were BS and felt that blaming any ethnic group for this travesty was short-sighted and anger driven.

    "The goal of an argument should not be victory, but progress." - my fortune cookie

    by Black Leather Rain on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 06:13:31 AM PST

  •  Sorry (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lysias, Black Leather Rain

    I find this diary somwhat offensive. (I'm a gay man in a 19 year "partnership"). I haven't posted in any diaries yet on this subject. This is my first.

    Your diary is tantamount to sticking your head in the sand. The truth is, a significant number of the black population are homophobic. And here's a secret - a significant number of the gay community is racist. This is my experience.

    Before the election, I wasn't fond of Barack Obama's stand on gay marriage, but believing a rising tide lifts all boats, I set my personal agenda aside and voted for him. In a way, I do feel like the African American community stuck its finger in the eye of of the gay community, who turned out in droves to vote for Obama.

    Am I resentful? No. Am I disappointed? Very.

    It tells me we have a problem that we all need to work on. It doesn't tell me that we should all pretend the problem doesn't exist.

    •  I think you have a point, (0+ / 0-)

      but what I'm saying is I'm not hiding my head in the sand. I'm saying the black community is homophobic, but no more homophobic than any other group. It is a problem we need to work on, but the problem can't be solved if you go to the black community and use a poll of 158 people to represent them, because the first argument you're going to get is 1) we're not a monolith.

      You have every right to be disappointed, and I know we need to work on this problem. I never said we didn't, I simply said that quoting a number like 70% of African Americans were against gay marriage in California is inaccurate and is quoted out of context. It's not good. Notice, I didn't bring up my queer friends, being discriminated against or any of that as a defense for black homophobia, or say anything about how gay people shouldn't be angry. All I said is that, these numbers are taken out of context and being used to justify something that just isn't being said in them.

      •  Yes, you're hiding your head in the sand (0+ / 0-)

        Your comments beyond your diary confirm that for me.

        Are blacks the most homophobic "group"? I don't know. It doesn't matter. Personally, given what blacks have suffered, they shouldn't be homophobic AT ALL. That is the point.

        I think your time would be better spent talking with your fellow African Americans and get out of my face trying to convince me the problem doesn't exist.

        •  No, really I'm not but I respect your opinion.. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I do talk to my fellow African-Americans, many of whom are queer and SGL, but I also talk to other people to try and bridge that gap. I think my time is best spent talking to everyone, because it will take all kinds for this movement to ever be realized.

          It matters because people who are "progressives" are saying it as if it is a fact. No one is arguing there is no homophobia, what I'm saying is, to prop that up on these numbers is wrong.  So it matters, it matters for the same reason that I would not let a black person say that gay people are more racist.

          I'm not in your face, I'm online. If you don't want to communicate with me anymore you can not. You don't have to act as if you're "dismissing" me.

          In a country that has racism, sexism, homophobia, and heterosexism woven into it's fabric, I don't think there's a way that any of us escape that.

          Anyone can see that I've said several times the problem exists, but I'm not in your face, I'm online. And I'm not doing what you're saying I am. You're fighting a fight that was never a point of my argument. And you're railing against an argument that never existed.

    •  Sorry (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      if my reply to you is offensive, but, I find your position on gays vs. blacks contradictory.  On one hand you let us in on the secret that a significant number in the gay community is racist, then on the other hand you feel the African-American community "stuck its finger in the eye of the gay community" because the gay community voted in droves for Barack Obama.  My point on this is, if what you say is true, how can racists gays expect the object of their racism to support them.

      It may have not occurred to you but the black community didn't expect anyone to vote for Barack Obama because he was black, but, instead for what he represented to the country by way of being a Democratic politician who pledged to lead this country in a different (indeed positive) direction than the one that it is currently on.  Thus, we black folk don't believe we owe any group (Asian, Hispanic, Gay/Lesbian, White, Muslim, etc.) anything for voting for Obama (in my opinion).  Barack Obama's victory (as evidenced by the celebrations around the world), was transformational as well as symbolic.  But, from a domestic standpoint, his being elected (hopefully) benefits you as a gay person, as much as it (hopefully) benefits me as a black person, as much as the entire country (again hopes) his presidency will benefit the country as a whole.  So, I don't see there being a quid pro quo necessary between the gay community and the black community, in this respect.

      What I do see playing out here, by your comments as well as others in the gay community (via their anger/disappointment), is that because of the civil rights movement and the injustices that African-Americans endured, it seems the gay community 'EXPECTS' the African-American community to help them achieve their right to marry.  And although from a purely civil rights perspective this would be the "right" thing to do, as someone else noted upthread, the gay community fails to take into consideration the religious dynamic that exists in the black community that precludes many of us voting in support of gay marriage.  Call it homophobic if you want, but, many in the black community are reared in a church philosophy that does not support homosexuality.  In fact, I will go a step further and let you in on a secret, the black community (and this is not a scientific poll, just a black woman's lifelong anecdotal observation) is nearly 100% steeped in christian religiosity.  So, while we vote upwards of 90+% democratic, it is my opinion and experience that 90+% of blacks believe in and/or participates in religion on some level.  Now having said that, if the 70/30 poll does bear out, to me it represents a sizeable portion of the black community putting aside their religious values to support gay rights.  Yet, in spite of that, we are attacked and vilified as if this Proposition's passing rested solely on the backs of blacks.

      If I have made sweeping generalizations, about the vilification of African-Americans in regard to this measure, prove me wrong and point me to the rants against Hispanics, Asians, etc. And, while we are on the subject of polls, whites only voted 45% to 55% to defeat Prop. 8, which means the white community was nearly evenly split about giving the gay community civil rights in California, supposedly the liberal bastion of the USA.  In summation, for those in the gay community looking to lash out, you have no shortage of targets, so I ask why are black people getting so much of the blame; could it have anything to do with that little secret that you let us in on.

  •  Does it have to be a marriage.... (0+ / 0-)

    what if it was only called a civil union, and the word, marriage was not attached. Would that make a difference, or are we saying that there can be no union of same-sex couples, that would provide them the same benefits enjoyed by a man and wife.

    I think that is the real question. I do not have a problem either way, but if the word marriage were removed from the union, would that make it more palatable to the "common" man. People say marriage is defined in the Bible and that is why it is between a man and woman. Seperation of Church and State says that does not matter.

    Thinking through my keyboard, forgive the interruption, we now return to your regularly scheduled program...

  •  Forget the "black" angle (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    no refuge in english, ribofunk

    This isn't a race issue. It's about religion and education.

  •  I guess I am what you would call a (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Southern Black "Evangelical"......My brother(who was gay) died from Aids in 2003.  I have a woman friend who is 56 years old diagnosed with Aids.  I have never, nor will I ever be judgmental or of the belief that a person's civil rights should be jeopardized just because of their sexual orientation.

    My Pastor tells us to vote how our conscience dictates and suggests rather than denying someone their rights we need to remember what AA have gone through in this country.  Yes, it is a civil right, and no one should be denied the right of who to marry.  

    The AA community as a whole is homophobic.  We all know this.  But it is because of the teachings of the church.  The church need to get out of the public sector...It saddens me to know that my community contributed(but was not totally responsible for) the ban on marriage.  We need to stop calling it gay marriage, it is marriage between to human beings who love each other..period!

    To all my ancestors who have moved from "sense to soul", a mountain of gold could not repay you.

    by rubthorn on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:06:36 AM PST

    •  No, we are not *as a whole* anything. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ChiTownBlue2000, wpa1984

      There's no wholesale, hive-mind agreement within the AA on any point.  

      Hatred, which could destroy so much, never failed to destroy the man who hated, and this was an immutable law. James Baldwin

      by evilene689 on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:12:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe not...but the majority (0+ / 0-)

        are as reflected in those polls.  This is something that a pollster did not have to tell me because I have experienced it over the years.  

        And as I said earlier, it is because of the teachings of the church

        To all my ancestors who have moved from "sense to soul", a mountain of gold could not repay you.

        by rubthorn on Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:22:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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