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Do you think UAW workers make $70 an hour? UPDATED

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Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 09:59:42 PM PST

So in almost every news article and commentary about whether or not there should be a "bailout" for Big Auto, the current figure thrown around as to how much United Auto Workers make is $70 an hour.

Yup.  $70 an hour for making cars in a factory.  I'll bet you probably think that's what they make, based on all the "news" reports floating around the last week or so.

Heck, I did.  That number kind of jumps out at you.  You remember it.

Well guess what.  It's wrong.  

The truth?

According to the UAW's own website, the base pay for a worker in a UAW plant is $27 an hour.

So.  News media tells the world, and most Americans:  "UAW workers make $70 an hour".

Reality:  They make $27 an hour.  Oh wait, some specialists make $32.

Source:

The UAW's own website:

How much are current UAW auto industry wages?

In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor. Between 2003 and 2006, the wages of a typical UAW assembler have grown at about the same rate as wages in the private sector as a whole – roughly 9 percent. Part of that growth is due to cost-of-living adjustments that have helped prevent inflation from eroding the purchasing power of workers’ wages.

What I like about their website is that directly after this they list the CEO's salaries:

What is the compensation for auto industry executives?

The CEOs of Chrysler Group, Ford and GM earned a combined total of $24.5 million in salaries, bonuses and other compensation in 2006.

The next four highest paid executives received average salary and other compensation of $1.3 million at Ford and $1.4 million at GM. These substantial sums do not include the value of stocks and stock options that were also part of executive compensation.

Kind of changes the tenor of the conversation, doesn't it?  When, you know, the FACTS are actually revealed.

Gotta love that Mouthpiece Media.  

Funny thing, in googling for this story, I stumbled across someone who's ahead of me on this, Felix Salmon at Portfolio.com:

The Return of the $70 Per Hour Meme

You might expect it from right-leaning commentators like Will Wilkinson. You wouldn't expect it from someone like Mark Perry, who lives in Flint, Michigan. And you certainly wouldn't expect to see it in the New York Times, from the likes of Andrew Ross Sorkin. But all of them are perpetuating the meme that the average GM worker costs more than $70 an hour, once you include health and pension costs.

It's not true.

The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28 per hour in wages, and I can assure you that GM is not paying $42 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. Rather, the $70 per hour figure (or $73 an hour, or whatever) is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM's total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.

Once again, it is painfully revealed who it is that runs the media.

What really bothers me is that I didn't question it until I stumbled across a link to the UAW's site on another forum.  And I usually question everything.

We are being duped constantly by our media.  Constantly.

Here's now Felix ends his piece:

Now that GM's healthcare obligations are being moved to a UAW-run trust, even that fictitious number is going to fall sharply. But anybody who uses it as a rhetorical device suggesting that US car companies are run inefficiently is being disingenuous. As of 2007, the UAW represented 180,681 members at Chrysler, Ford and General Motors; it also represented 419,621 retired members and 120,723 surviving spouses. If you take the costs associated with 721,025 individuals and then divide those costs by the hours worked by 180,681 individuals, you're going to end up with a very large hourly rate. But it won't mean anything, unless you're trying to be deceptive.

UPDATE:  I just have to add this comment below from LeftHandedMan:

The GOP never dreamed it would get to kill a massive part of organized labor and have an entire region of the country completely collapse on the Democratic parties watch to boot, but that is just the opportunity that has arisen for the Limbaugh/Coulter wing of the GOP ....

10 to 12 million jobs lost, boom!, 200 to 1 trillion dollars in emergency social spending to deal with the collapse's impact on the region, the UAW dead and Wal-Mart the biggest employer in the region, Michigan in full economic collapse and millions of voters ripe for being in play in the next round of the Culture War.

The GOP, and the media pundits who are all clamoring for Obama and the Congress to let the auto industry die will be damning us and running against the Democratic Party as the party that 'Let Michigan Die' or 'Let Detroit Die' for a generation if the auto industry is allowed to die.

I think he's got an excellent point that we should definitely not ignore.  We all have to be ready for the massive offensive against the Obama administration and, well, us. They will orchestrate very bad things in order to use the fallout for their own benefit.  We can never forget how just-plain-bad they are.  

Then he adds:

{if we let Big Auto go under}, thats several years added on to the economic crisis that we face.

And probably Bobby Jindal in 2012 running as Ronnie Reagan on a white horse to "save" America.

Tags: UAW, Unions, Corporatism, Corporate media, propaganda (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 211 comments

    •  Looks like this is about to scroll off the list. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Inky99

      I hope you get rescued, because this is really important information.  I was talking about this just the other day with a friend of mine who used to work for GM, and is currently very active with another union.  This was exactly her take on it, in addition to news reports not mentioning that the union has taken severe cuts in the recent past to "save" the so-called "Big 3."

      This information changes the dialogue, and it is very difficult to find, because the car companies want it that way.

      "And God separated the light from the dark, and did two loads of laundry"

      by Fiddlegirl on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:38:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  thanks (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        djtyg

        It didn't make the rec list.  :)

        It won't get rescued because it has too many comments.  

        Oh well!  Maybe someone else will bring this up today during the day or something.  

        William Casey "We will know that we have succeeded when everything the public believes is false"

        by Inky99 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:25:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for this. (0+ / 0-)

      I rec'd way too late.  Sorry about that.

      There's a lot of people-even on here-who seem to have a hostility towards the blue-collar workforce.  Like Barney Frank said: "There is apparently a cultural condition that's more ready to accept aid to a white-collar industry than the blue-collar industry, and that has to be confronted."

      There's no shame in rolling up your sleeves and going to work.

      There's a voice in my head that says to not be so mean to the conservatives. I work very hard to ignore that voice.

      by djtyg on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 03:03:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Inky -- Please check this out, too (0+ / 0-)

      I think I've stumbled across another element of the Big Lie they're putting out about $70 per hour compensation:

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      It involves an accounting trick called FAS 106.

      "Animals are my friends. And I don't eat my friends." -- George Bernard Shaw

      by Hudson on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 06:22:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for this bit of research. (14+ / 0-)

    I believed the meme too.  Damn the bullshit.

    the third eye does not weep. it knows. Political compass: -9.75 / -8.72

    by mijita on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:05:59 PM PST

  •  I hear ya (16+ / 0-)

    there are a ton of flat-out lies and bullshit being passed around.

    The GOP never dreamed it would get to kill a massive part of organized labor and have an entire region of the country completely collapse on the Democratic parties watch to boot, but that is just the opportunity that has arisen for the Limbaugh/Coulter wing of the GOP.

    A 25 billion dollar loan, with strings attached mandating the auto industry stay the fuck out of monkeying with healthcare reform and making them go green or else, could save hundreds of billions of dollars in social spending over the next 10 years alone.

    10 to 12 million jobs lost, boom!, 200 to 1 trillion dollars in emergency social spending to deal with the collapse's impact on the region, the UAW dead and Wal-Mart the biggest employer in the region, Michigan in full economic collapse and millions of voters ripe for being in play in the next round of the Culture War.

    The GOP, and the media pundits who are all clamoring for Obama and the Congress to let the auto industry die will be damning us and running against the Democratic Party as the party that 'Let Michigan Die' or 'Let Detroit Die' for a generation if the auto industry is allowed to die.

  •  $70/hr (3+ / 0-)

    Most of the references that I have seen make note that $70/hr is an all-in labor cost, including the legacy costs, and not the cost of direct labor today. However, the $70 is still a cash expense that impacts GM's cash flow.

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:14:05 PM PST

  •  $70 is about right (0+ / 0-)

    While the wage is only about $30, when you include benefits, pensions, healthcare, and all that, it does double at the least.

  •  Thanks for the extra info (12+ / 0-)

    I've found it frustrating that so many are willing to demonize the unions over this fiasco. There is no crime in negotiating a living wage, and 57k a year isn't exactly yacht and vacation home income.

    And don't forget, these people pay a percentage of their hourly pay to the unions to negoitate these contracts, protect worker rights, and provide strike pay if needed. If someone has a problem with other workers earning a decent wage, then unionize your shop.
    I'm not saying unions are the best run entities, but they certainly aren't any worse than the billionaire CEOs.
    A rising tide lifts all boats. Unions raise the tide.

  •  My dad had a goddamned high school (15+ / 0-)

    education and nothing beyond that.  He sent three kids through undergraduate and graduate school and he did it because he belonged to a railroad union. He paid damned big dues and was reasonably well paid.  He was NOT well paid because the Missouri-Pacific was inherently generous and thought he was a good worker, which he was:  he was paid a decent, living wage because of the union he belonged to.

  •  How can Japanese automakers do just fine (0+ / 0-)

    without unions? If they had to pay all these legacy costs, would they be in the same boat?

    "I guess I'm gonna fade into Bolivian." -Mike Tyson

    by AmbroseBurnside on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:36:50 PM PST

    •  what is the minimum wage in japan? (4+ / 0-)

      what is the provided health coverage?
      pensions?
      social security?

      •  I'm talking about the ones (0+ / 0-)

        that operate here in the US.

        "I guess I'm gonna fade into Bolivian." -Mike Tyson

        by AmbroseBurnside on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:39:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Huge tax breaks (8+ / 0-)

          The foreign automotive plants in the US get huge local taxbreaks...as in they pay no local tax in some states.  While these tax breaks act as an incentive to bring work to the region, it doesn't appear to really help the surrounding area fiscally as the lost tax base isn't completely regenerated by the taxes on the employees (as the theory would go).

          Also, even though the employees at these factories are not union, they still benefit greatly from UAW collective bargaining as their wages are still informally pegged to the going UAW rate for similar line and skilled trade work (albeit a slightly discounted rate).  So now that UAW influence may be waning, I am sure the pay rate in the foreign automotive factories in the US will decrease and the benefits will weaken.

          Toyota in particular also relies heavily upon component production in other Asian countries with extremely low paid workers to balance out the cost of Japanese workers.

          As a side note, these same companies seem to thrive in Europe and Canada.  Hmm, I wonder why? Could be because the healthcare issue isn't such a financial burden?

          It is true that in the 80s GM and Ford had a huge chance to push for universal healthcare, but decided not to actively pursue that strategy.  Pretty short sighted if you ask me.

          It is hard to reach for my wallet with this knife between my shoulder blades.

          by Mote Dai on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:22:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  For one thing they are asking European Goverement (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Mote Dai, Terra Mystica

      s to bail them out.

      For the other they hav't been at it for 100 years. Their workforces are much younger.

      But also remember that the workers contributed to those pension benefits.

    •  Well, they pay current workers comparable wages (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Mote Dai, JDPITALIA, Terra Mystica, LynneK

      and benefits, what they don't have is the retiree costs.  They operate like Southwest Airlines which has not accumulated those liabilities.  It's not current workers that are causing the issue.  The rest of the issues are not worker issues but operating issues for these car companies.  Toyota has it's own problems...they have agreements with their Japanese workers that require them to keep and pay their workers even during a slowdown so they are quickly eroding their cash reserves.  It will be interesting to see what the Japanese government does if Toyota or Honda needs their assistance.  I am sure they will not think twice about it.

      "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

      by lakehillsliberal on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:17:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Japanese automakers (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Mote Dai, JDPITALIA, phrogge prince

      in Japan are unionised. Japanese automakers in the UK (i.e., Nissan) are unionised. Guess what, they're doing great.
      The reason they're not unionised in the US is that the government (via various Southern states and their generous subsidies and tax breaks) has subsidised them to NOT be. Your tax dollars at work, helping employers keep their workforce union-free by making the threat to leave town if they hear about a union drive a reality, because the next state over will give them a free building site and a tax break.

      Political Compass says: -8.88, -8.67
      "We never sold out cos no one would buy."--J Neo Marvin

      by expatyank on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:58:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not only that but those southern states have (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        JDPITALIA, cnmbfa

        Right to work laws and other anti-union laws with court system that slaps unions till they are black and blue. Not to mention cost of living and housing is cheaper there than in the northern states so they can afford to pay workers less without them getting as upset.

        "What is the robbing of a Bank compared to the FOUNDING of a Bank?" Bertolt Brecht

        by thethinveil on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 01:25:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm a retired union carpenter in 0hio and (37+ / 0-)

    while our wage here is less than say New York, LA, etc. we make about $22 per hour plus $2 per hour pension plus $2.50 per hour health.

    Those numbers aren't exact but close. An estimators man year is considered to 2,000 hours so $22 X 2,000 = $44,000 wages annually.

    Not bad, not great but a lot better than non-union work which is $12 - $16 average around here for construction work. Usually without benefits.

    So the UAW workers make $27 per hour plus benefits?

    Let me ask this question, is it a crime for a worker to ask for a decent wage in America?

    If the union workers didn't ask for a decent wage, what do you all think the non-union workers would be getting?

    Back when that moron Reagan fired the air traffic controllers every working man/woman in America should have taken a week or two off and told the world that Ronnie Reagan was a fucking fool.

    Personally, I don't care if the UAW gets paid $100 per hour. None of my business.

    Here of late thanks to Obama a certain Abe Lincoln has been getting a lot of ink and this should be so. The truth is Mr. Lincoln once wrote a thing about you can't make yourself bigger by making someone else less.

    Should be required reading each year of school.

    One last thought, all wealth comes from labor.

    The next time you read about a millionaire or someone that makes a billion dollars a year, think about the working people that actually made that money for him/her.

    Working people that just want a chance at a decent wage, a home and the ability to raise a family.

    When I grow up, I want to be just like Keith Olbermann. ♥

    by 0hio on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:41:11 PM PST

  •  Wow, I hadn't even heard that meme (4+ / 0-)

    If I had, I'd have turned to google immediately because it sounds like a total crock of shit from the get go.

    Thanks for the diary pointing to the truth.

  •  Like your healthcare and vacation benefits, (12+ / 0-)

    thank the union movement in this country because without them it is not likely that even mid-level white collar managers would have these benefits.  Unions definitely have their problems but they helped lift all of us into the middle and upper classes.  It always fries my cookies to listen to people rail against unions but take advantage of the benefits that this movement has provided.  Want to do without decent/any healthcare, go ahead and destroy the unions in this country and see what bargaining power you have.  

    "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

    by lakehillsliberal on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:50:40 PM PST

  •  Thank you so much for this resource! (5+ / 0-)

    I can't tell you how frustrating it's been to hear repeated, time and again, this ridiculous lie about $70 hour pay for workers being the root of GM's problems. I knew it was wrong, and argued that it was. This provides me with the resources I need.

    Confronting the office free marketeers with this tomorrow will be great fun.

    Thanks.

    "It's like we weren't made for this world, But I wouldn't really want to meet someone who was." --Of Montreal

    by andydoubtless on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:57:53 PM PST

  •  Definitely not even $27 now (11+ / 0-)

    My dad was one of those unfortunate older generation employees with UAW that was forced to retire early after the last round of contract negotiations.  He spent his last month training a new group of employees that made ONE THIRD his hourly salary with just over half the benefits.  My dad was skilled trades (a machine repair man) that made $36/hr (after being there almost 20 years) and was training guys that made $12/hr.

    So the new salary data is probably substantially lower for some factories (those hit hard with early retirement offers).

    It is amazing how many Americans hold pay grudges against union employees.  We should be happy for other Americans that get paid a living wage and have used collective bargaining for those additional benefits...benefits that others would love to have if they could.

    The UAW ranks have been shrinking rapidly, and the Delphi spinoff debacle shrank them even faster.

    Also, GM had the opportunity to fund the legacy pensions and healthcare in the 1980s, but did not set aside the money then.  It would have substantial eased the burden.  Now, much of it has been spun off into some fund that the UAW itself oversees (the Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association or VEBA).  Many feel that the VEBA is underfunded and will not meet the need over the coming years.  It is also unclear what the recent economic downturn has done to the overall value of the VEBA funds.

    It pains me to constantly read that the financial problems with Detroit were brought about by unions or "lazy union workers" making exorbitant pay.  It simply isn't true, but people tend to believe it.  Many of those people have left much of their health behind at these factories working grueling day jobs that are physically demanding.  Yes, unfortunately, the UAW did join with GM management on many of the anti-CAFE standard actions, but many rank-and-file union members, like my father, opposed such short sighted approaches.

    My dad has long been active in the union scene even before his UAW days.  He was active in other unions in the 70s and would attend regional or national union conferences. He remembers being laughed out of rooms when he would discuss the need for "universal health and pension programs."  In other words, your pension and health insurance while funded by your current employer could be moved to another employer if you left and you wouldn't have to start over with each new job.  Back in the 70s, when people still kept jobs for entire lifetimes, this concept was deemed naive and dangerous.

    It is hard to reach for my wallet with this knife between my shoulder blades.

    by Mote Dai on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:07:47 PM PST

    •  Your Dad sounds like a man way ahead of his time. (5+ / 0-)

      "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

      by lakehillsliberal on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:21:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  the old union day stories (6+ / 0-)

        He has some great "back in the day" stories when there was a strong influence of European socialism on US union philosophy (not really the case anymore).  He talks of small union publications calling for universal health benefits (not called that at the time, but I don't remember what term they used for it back then).  That was something different than the portable pension and healthcare systems he was pushing for in the 70s.

        It is amazing that within one generation, most Americans have forgotten about real pensions (defined benefits at retirement) versus self-funded "retirement accounts" like IRAs or 401(k)s. It really is a shame because some pensioners could have a reasonable retirement and a widow could draw those benefits as well.  With Social Security as a supplement, the elderly could live with dignity in the Midwest.  I am not so sure about that any more.

        It is hard to reach for my wallet with this knife between my shoulder blades.

        by Mote Dai on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:30:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Everyone drank the Kool Aid, (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Mote Dai, Poom, phrogge prince, slowheels2

          They were convinced by their financial planners that they were going to get rich off the stock market and the value of the homes.  Meanwhile, the investment banks and hedge funds have siphoned their retirements funds into their off shore tax free bank accounts.

          "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

          by lakehillsliberal on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:38:50 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Retirement accounts (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            phrogge prince

            I never understood retirement accounts, even though I participate at work.  It is basically a money making scheme for Wall Street.  They get a steady stream of funds to push bad investments and they get the fees.  These investment firms are like bookies as they make their cut no matter what the outcome.  If the market tanks and everyone sells, well, they still make a fee on those transactions.  Oh, and let's not forget the mountains of "management fees" they get scoop off the top.  My work IRA "financial planner" recommended mutual funds with an almost 6% front load.  I told her, "You have to be shitting me, after inflation is accounted for (3%) and the annual management fees (0.7%), the fund would have to clear ten percent before I made anything."  No thank you.

            Seriously though, most people simply will not be able to save the amount of money required to live 20 plus years using retirement accounts.  Most midwesterners would be lucky to have 100 grand in one of those accounts when he/she retires.  Definitely not enough to generate income to live on, so they have to use the principle...which only shrinks the entire investment overall.  It is a shell game we have been lead to believe...that these accounts will somehow provide for us.  I just don't see it.  Maybe I am biased by my own financial losses over the past six months.

            It is hard to reach for my wallet with this knife between my shoulder blades.

            by Mote Dai on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:49:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The government will have to create a special bond (0+ / 0-)

              for people to buy that will generate enough income to supplement retirement.  People being forced to fund the stock market which is what most of these accounts are designed to do, is a losing proposition.  Just try to get a clear picture of where your money is being invested by the large fund managers and it will make your head hurt.  

              "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

              by lakehillsliberal on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 10:08:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  The Koolaid was served by Ronald Reagan (0+ / 0-)

            and an entire generation of Americans drank it.

            It's now embedded into the culture, what with the MSM touting Reagan as a "Great President" -- do you remember that Royal Funeral they had for that lout?

            William Casey "We will know that we have succeeded when everything the public believes is false"

            by Inky99 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:17:11 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Great comment! It's a classic case of deflection (4+ / 0-)

      and far too many people believe it.

      It is amazing how many Americans hold pay grudges against union employees.  We should be happy for other Americans that get paid a living wage and have used collective bargaining for those additional benefits...benefits that others would love to have if they could.

      I can't tell you how many free association arguments I've had over the years.  People blame unions, rail against dues, but accept the benefits.  When it's pointed out that they don't have to work at a union shop, it always comes down to ...but I can't afford to live on those [non-union] wages.

      Boggles the mind.

      "I'm mean in the East, mean in the West. Mean to the people that I like best. ... I push folks down, and I cause train wrecks." Woody Guthrie

      by Terra Mystica on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:23:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  One battle the conservative have almost won (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        JDPITALIA, Terra Mystica, Inky99, Ajipon

        The anti-union rhetoric, that traditionally was centered in the Southern States, has seemed to seep well beyond the historical anti-union borders.  When even Democrats I know say things disparaging unions, I always ask why.  What about a 40 hr work week do you hate?  What about a five day work week do you hate?  What about workers compensation do you hate?

        Almost invariably the answer has something to do with a local teacher's union.  With so many Democrats no longer working blue collar jobs, the only "union influence" or contact in their lives are their kids' teachers.  And the view of educator unions in this country is abysmal partly because they are scapegoated for school system shortfalls by angry parents looking for reform.  

        It is hard to reach for my wallet with this knife between my shoulder blades.

        by Mote Dai on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:39:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And then to connect to the diary, and complete (4+ / 0-)

          the irony, most media types belong to unions.  

          I wonder how we became so disconnected from each other, and maybe more importantly, what can be done about it.

          Unions get beat up or disregarded on this site a lot, so the internet may not be the magic solution.  Still diarists like ChangetoWin could highlight their message by alerting sympathetic Kos community members that a diary was coming.  We could hold it on the rec list for a while.  Maybe there are other little things like that that would add up.

          Kudo's to you and your dad for fighting the good fight.

          "I'm mean in the East, mean in the West. Mean to the people that I like best. ... I push folks down, and I cause train wrecks." Woody Guthrie

          by Terra Mystica on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:54:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting and true but (3+ / 0-)

    As somebody else said, the point of the calculations is to demonstrate the legacy costs of the benefits that have acrued.

    What is not pointed out is that this is a failure of management to properly fund their pension and healthcare schemes in the good times. Instead the money went to pay dividends. That inflated the share value and boosted those executive bonuses.

    You can also point out possible breaches of trust inherent in the pension rules (Please correct me if I am wrong but these techniques were used by UK companies in the same pursuit of dividend profits at the expense of their workers)

    I have already pointed out the "pension holidays". Companies often stopped contributions when the stock market was high because the actuaries considered the funds would more than meet future liabilities. All well and good until the stock market goes down. The same could well apply to the funding of the retirement health benefits. Worse, some even raided the fund to draw down this "excess".

    The other scam is the company investing its pension fund in its own shares.

    It would be well worth while investigating whether such practices have occured and point them out. It would demonstrate that it was not over powerful unions but greedy and incompetent management that is responsible.

    "Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism." Sir Gerald Kaufman, British MP and son of Holocaust survivor.

    by Lib Dem FoP on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:22:04 PM PST

  •  overpaid (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    fireonice

    Both sides make too much for what they do. The large men that assemble cars in Detroit would croak if they had to work actual physical labor 40 hours or more a week. The pin-heads up top also are overpaid for designing ugly and inefficient vehicles.

    Bring back the maximum wage.

    •  HUH? "work actual physical labor"? (4+ / 0-)

      Are you saying working in a factory isn't a physically demanding job?  What do you count as "actual physical labor"?  What factory do you work in?  Who are you to judge the value of someone's health and youth lost to grueling hours of work?  I want to know your assembly line experience so I can judge your credibility on this issue.

      It is hard to reach for my wallet with this knife between my shoulder blades.

      by Mote Dai on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:31:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree that no CEO should be paid (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cnmbfa

      more than 10 times what the lowest paid worker makes. Is that what you mean by maximum wage? Isn't normally called a wage cap?

      No  57,000 is not too much. More people should be making that wage. They fought for that wage and they negotiated using the market  to benefit them.  Dont knock one of the few times that the market actually helps workers.

      "What is the robbing of a Bank compared to the FOUNDING of a Bank?" Bertolt Brecht

      by thethinveil on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 01:51:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is the next big fight for progressives (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Mote Dai, JDPITALIA, Terra Mystica

    Passing EFCA and getting this country re-educated about the value of unions needs to become a TOP priority for progressives, right along with healthcare, energy and (insert your favorite #3 item here).  

    America has been brainwashed for 40+ years that unions are bad, when clearly allowing corporate America to rape and pillage our communities and our workers has been a tragic long-term experiment that must end now.  

    We're going to be seeing a lot more anti-union propoganda coming along, because the right-wingers and corporatists know that if the unions get the kind of grassroots support and movement behind them again, they're toast.  That's where the "spread the wealth around" will come in- no more will the CEOs be taking millions and millions in salaries, bonuses and stock options at the expense and off the backs of their employees.  

    If EFCA passes, I'm hoping to see unionization sweep this country, even for middle managers who get stuck between wanting to do right by their workers and the C-Level idiots who insist on more profits at someone else's expense.  The do it in Europe, and they can do it here.

    •  the R's are willing to sacrifice the big three. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Inky99

      So much is their hate towards orgainized labor. And should they go BK, the R's will blame the downfall on unions. When EFCA comes up, they will point towards auto and say "look what labor did to auto. Do you want that to happen to you?"

      Their narative will be that they are out to save workers from union goons intent on destroying American jobs by defeating EFCA.

      Brilliant!

      If CEO's and their brethren have employment contracts, why do they insist that their employees don't need one?

      by JDPITALIA on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 10:12:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This only shows the awful behavior union and mngt (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shann

    This is a great diary and shows good research. Unfortunately it also shows how broken the auto industry is. It has been described as a health care provider that happens to manufacture cars. When a worker is compensated either currently or for future compensation such as retirement it should be taken from what he produced, not from what someone else will or might produce. That management and labor agreed to do otherwise was a theft from follow on workers.

  •  GM pays below industry average for auto (0+ / 0-)

    workers.

    UAW Losing Pay Edge: Foreign Automakers' Bonuses Boost Wages in U.S. Plants as Detroit Car Companies Struggle

    In that instance, Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, KY, plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers, most of whom did not receive profit-sharing checks last year. Toyota would not provide a U.S. average, but said its 7,000-worker Georgetown plant is representative of its U.S. operations.

    http://www.aftermarketnews.com/...

    I'm not sure what it means in all this, except that GM's wages are at or below average for the industry.  Tough to blame workers in that case.

    "I'm mean in the East, mean in the West. Mean to the people that I like best. ... I push folks down, and I cause train wrecks." Woody Guthrie

    by Terra Mystica on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:06:21 AM PST

    •  I've seen other numbers from AP.USA Today (0+ / 0-)

      http://www.usatoday.com/...

      Here they are

      three automakers lost $15 billion last year. Chrysler pays an average $75.86 an hour in wages, pension and health care benefits, GM pays $73.26 and Ford pays $70.51. Toyota pays U.S. workers about $48, U.S. automakers say.

      Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog.- Daily kos FAQ I don't like hippie-types and Forrest Gump is my hero.

      by fireonice on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:24:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "Average" (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Mote Dai, Terra Mystica

        The $70 an hour meme has been rebutted well in this diary yet I think the key word in here will be "average". Just splitting it up and spreading it out doesn't seem right anymore. Its going to make right wingers fume, they won't even look twice. They seem to be looking for ammunition, not facts.

      •  About those numbers... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Terra Mystica

        Those aren't the actual "real wage" numbers.  I sincerely hope that isn't what you are trying to say in this post (if it is, you missed the whole point of the entire diary above).  

        It is hard to reach for my wallet with this knife between my shoulder blades.

        by Mote Dai on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:35:09 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I know its not the wage (0+ / 0-)

          It's a labor input. Even if you look at the average hourly wage, any way you slice and dice it, the Big 3 pays more than the Japenese automakers.

          Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog.- Daily kos FAQ I don't like hippie-types and Forrest Gump is my hero.

          by fireonice on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:37:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  And? (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            cnmbfa, Terra Mystica, thethinveil

            Yes, as documented in comments above, the Big 3 have other labor costs (decades retired workers) that the "new to the US car manufacturing scene" do not have.  Just wait, those numbers will each parity in a few years.  Also, now that the VEBA is going, Detroit's numbers will drop dramatically as the legacy pension portion of the total cost will be removed.  

            Also, those numbers do not remove the amount that employees paid in for the pension and healthcare benefits, so that amount is in effect added in twice in the total.

            It is hard to reach for my wallet with this knife between my shoulder blades.

            by Mote Dai on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:41:24 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Um, hourly wages are higher in (0+ / 0-)

              UAW Plants, compared to Toyota plants. Although pensions are a majority of the trouble, the wage difference is still there. A big reason why the UAW agreement in 2007 sputtered is because management complained about the wage gap

              Toyota and Honda are well established. Gm stills sells as many cars as Toyota , but is in way more trouble because of their cost inputs. It's time to enter the Brave New World of globalization.

              Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog.- Daily kos FAQ I don't like hippie-types and Forrest Gump is my hero.

              by fireonice on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:44:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  What? (0+ / 0-)

                Toyota and Honda receive enormous local tax breaks to build factories in the United States, so comparing "cost inputs" at just the labor level is not a fair comparison.  

                Toyota and Honda are not "well-established" in any meaningful way in the US working population compared to the Big 3.  Give me a break...there is no comparison in the number and age of the work force.

                Bottom line: why are you so against people receiving a living wage?

                It is hard to reach for my wallet with this knife between my shoulder blades.

                by Mote Dai on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:53:31 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  , stop tugging at emotions, look at facts (0+ / 0-)

                  GM gets plenty of tax breaks from Levin and Conyers, be sure.  Wage gap is THERE. And who says Toyota and GM have to stay in the US if workers wan't a higher wage, they can move off shore. Have you heard of free trade, it's the New In thing.

                  Bottom Line: I am not against a living wage, but if they want to pay above average ways and go under and then have the nerve to ask for a bailout , tough noogies. Take a pay cut.

                  Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog.- Daily kos FAQ I don't like hippie-types and Forrest Gump is my hero.

                  by fireonice on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 01:01:19 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What I recommend (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Mote Dai, Terra Mystica

                    to bring down the cost of health care is to import tens of thousands of doctors from India, England, Australia, you name it.  

                    That will allow them to compete with Overpaid American doctors.  The costs of private medical care is too high.  We need the free market to really bring those costs down.

                    And if you, as a specialist, do not like making $10 an hour as a result, tough noogies.  Join a union.

                    "Never trust a rich man when he offers you a truce."

                    by KibbutzAmiad on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:41:59 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Heart strings? (0+ / 0-)

                    I am not tugging at any heart strings?  "Free trade" is a joke.  Where is the bottom in your system?  $10/hr? $5/hr?  Hell, people work in squalid conditions overseas for pennies on the hour.  Let's join up for that!  Let's make it a race for the bottom.  And looking at all your other responses combined on this diary, it is quite clear that you hold a pay grudge against people in unions.  

                    It is hard to reach for my wallet with this knife between my shoulder blades.

                    by Mote Dai on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:00:59 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Um, did you read the link and pullquote I (0+ / 0-)

                gave upthread?  While hourly wages are lower in Toyota plants in the US, cash compensation to hourly workers is higher.  Again you seem to misrepresent the comprehensive state of things by selecting bits here and there.

                "I'm mean in the East, mean in the West. Mean to the people that I like best. ... I push folks down, and I cause train wrecks." Woody Guthrie

                by Terra Mystica on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 01:47:32 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  gawd these auto workers (0+ / 0-)

                  Do the Toyota employees get that fat check from from their stock since the market is doing so well?

                  Working with Robots with little or no human communication for a full day seems so worth that stock option!

                  "What is the robbing of a Bank compared to the FOUNDING of a Bank?" Bertolt Brecht

                  by thethinveil on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 02:15:11 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

  •  From a political perspective (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    RonRaunikar

    You've got Senators like Shelby railng against an automotive bailout. I'd be frankly surprised if one of his handlers did not advise him to at the very least do something to help out the big 3. Let 'em fail isn't a strategy. If the gop is seen as the party who helped scuttle help for the auto industry then they could potentially kiss every state from Minnesota to Maine goodbye forever. If anyone has a chance catch a replay of the Senate hearing today with the ceo's please watch it. Repubs like Corker made some good points about when is enough is enough, how much money will you need. Nevertheless, I don't think he realized what will happen if he does nothing. Bush needs to speak up if he hasn't already; I know he ain't that stupid. Lets hope things can hold on until January.  

    •  Alabama (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cjallen, Terra Mystica, LynneK, WestDem

      Of course Shelby wants to see the big three go down.  Alabama stands to gain from that as he can get more foreign car manufacturers to build factories in his home (anti-union) state.  It benefits Senator Shelby greatly.

      It is hard to reach for my wallet with this knife between my shoulder blades.

      by Mote Dai on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:37:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Very true (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Mote Dai, Terra Mystica, LynneK

        True true, but hopefully this causes a split within the repubs. You're right about Shelby. Correct me if i'm wrong but Mercedes and Hyundai are in Alabama. I think EADS chose AL as part of the USAF tanker effort. If I was a national gop figure I would tell Shelby that he will be responsible for killing the gop in states they need. The automakers need this in some form and Shelby is telling the upper midwest and east to screw themselves. Real bad idea on his part.

        •  Actually, its Mercedes and Honda (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica, WestDem

          Mercedes has a plant outside of Tuscaloosa, and Honda has a plant in Lincoln. Other automakers are considering Alabama for new plants, as well, which is all good for our state, but it shouldn't be at the expense of other states, at least, that's the way I feel about it.

          "Truth never damages a cause that is just."~~~Mohandas K. Gandhi -9.38/-6.26

          by LynneK on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:36:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  OT, I live in north Alabama and would probably (0+ / 0-)

        benefit from Shelby's stand.  But I disagree with it because at this point things are so bad that the zero sum view of the world is catastrophic (I have relatives in Cleveland).

        But it is very very very very refreshing to see a politician stand up for the economic interests of his constituents.  I wish Dems would do it more.

        "I'm mean in the East, mean in the West. Mean to the people that I like best. ... I push folks down, and I cause train wrecks." Woody Guthrie

        by Terra Mystica on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:39:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Shelby is a jackass (0+ / 0-)

      always has been, always will be. For the record, yes, he really is "that stupid.

      "Truth never damages a cause that is just."~~~Mohandas K. Gandhi -9.38/-6.26

      by LynneK on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 06:33:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I have a question (0+ / 0-)

    GM and Ford have a combined market cap of about $6.3 billion. Wouldn't it make more sense for the feds to just buy them?

    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

    by jfern on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:52:15 AM PST

  •  Tell Chris Matthews (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    chowder, LynneK

    before he allows another GOP bobblehead to use that $70 / hr figure on his show, without challenge.

  •  Please review your accounting! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DeLLBerto

    Now, first a disclaimer; I'm totally for the bridge loans, and hope they are coupled with incentives to rush the energy efficiency efforts, but

    When you calculate the cost of an hour of work, you must add in the accrued sick and vacation leave the worker gets for that hour, the health care,life insurance, long term disability insurance, unemployment insurance, and on and on, that accrue for that hour. You also have a piece of the salary of the union steward who is allocated by employee count and doesn't work.

    We can get efficiencies out of our auto industry without crimping the standard of living of our workers. Right on top is single payer health insurance for all--get the health insurance parasite companies right out of the mix.

    But none of that can be done in 2008. So bridge loans and real tax credits for cars that get good mileage right now, from truly American firms only!

    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

    by MrMichaelMT on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:16:27 AM PST

    •  Sorry, you're missing the point (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      djtyg

      the WAY they are using the $70/hr figure is completely misleading and they're doing it on purpose.  They're giving the impression to people (including me! before I found this out) that the workers are actually getting PAID $70/hr.

      William Casey "We will know that we have succeeded when everything the public believes is false"

      by Inky99 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:23:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  140 years (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    RonRaunikar, Inky99

    That's how long it would take for the average production line worker making $57k to earn one average year of CEO salary.

    This does sorta piss me off, but not for the reason you might think.  It's not that the difference may be unfair.  It's what the difference leads to - short term thinking.

    Let's say you're a small business owner - flower shop, home computer service.  Let's say you pay yourself $45k a year. [On paper.  If you're doin' it right, you'll actually derive a lot more benefit from deductible business expenses that incidentally serve personal uses.]  Because you depend on the business' continued success for your living, and because you intend to keep living for another three or four decades, you tend to think long term, to try to anticipate what's coming that might affect your business.

    But, let's say you're presented with an opportunity to make $8 million in profit ($4 million for you) for one year in your business with no guarantee that you'll have the same opportunity ever again.  The downside is that your business may not do so well after that. Now let's also say that your business has partners, shareholders who are constantly pressuring you to increase the next quarter's profits.  How long does it take you to decide, "Well, fuck it!  I'm taking the $4 mil NOW and the hell with what happens to the business later!"

    For a long time, corporate CEOs have been itinerant hired guns who are competent NOT at managing companies for long term health, but at increasing successive quarterly earnings for awhile.  They're experts at burning the railroad ties from the tracks ahead to make the train go faster NOW.  And they're paid a metric buttload for doing just that.  They have no incentive to think long term.

    That Corporate America controls so much of the fate of the economy for all of us and that it's run by and has increasingly rewarded such "quick buck" CEOs in a doomed feedback loop - that's the real outrage.

    Opposition to an ideology is not inherently another ideology. When you're at the South Pole, there's no other direction to go but north.

    by sxwarren on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 07:09:32 AM PST

    •  You're absolutely right (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      djtyg, sxwarren

      the CEO's are now freelancers who have no motivation other than to milk the company for their own benefit.  

      It's really a form of creative looting.  

      William Casey "We will know that we have succeeded when everything the public believes is false"

      by Inky99 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:24:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I see the beef but most nurses.... (0+ / 0-)

    make less than that an hour and that requires post highschool education.  So I don't really care.  IMO $30/hour is a little above market value for those folks.  If it wasnt then why is the company in such a bad spot?  Sure its not the fault of average every day workers that the company has been poorly run and makes a shitty product but thats how it goes......  Toyota isnt having to file for shit why bail out GM?

  •  Thanks for posting this (0+ / 0-)

    I heard that $70 figure and questioned it, but never got off my butt to actually check. Thanks - glad to have the info.

    And of course, waiting for Olbermann or Maddow or Krugman or someone to challenge the meme.

  •  Thanks for this. (0+ / 0-)

    The $70 figure has been nagging at me for days.

    Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing

    by Travis Stark on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 11:04:32 AM PST

  •  Regardless of amount... (0+ / 0-)

    Detroit is a relic of the past that needs reinvented.

  •  Here's why we need MORE unionization (0+ / 0-)

    Part of that growth is due to cost-of-living adjustments that have helped prevent inflation from eroding the purchasing power of workers’ wages.

    If you aren't a union worker, then you probably don't have a contract that offsets inflation. Your purchasing power has been in a downward spiral for 25 years. Or more.

    But what's the frame that pro-corporate Republicans are succeeding in putting in place? This: The UNIONS are to blame for the auto industry's imminent collapse. Time to bust the union, they say.

    I want every person who has mouthed that frame to be shipped off to a third world country to have a go at starting from scratch there, because then they'll understand, in a visceral sense, where they want the corporate leadership to lead this country.

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