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This started off as a comment on a "we will never be taken seriously" thread on the recd list.  I'll bet by the end of the week we will have heard every possible reason in the book as to why we should just hold our tongue and let the Democrats take us for granted and like it.  How in the world does this make sense to anybody?  Why even HAVE a progressive website if all we are going to do is endorse any and everything the Democrats do and rubber stamp it?  Are we really so "elitist" that we fear by using cuss words we will lose our relevance?  NEWS FLASH yesterday it wasn't just the Dailykos community that was told their opinions don't matter.  It wasnt just the dailykos community that was outraged at the level of cowardice exhibited by our Democratic Senators.  Yeah we might sometimes express our displeasure with a few more f-bombs than other folks but the truth is we were the rule and not the exception yesterday.  So maybe some of you "high brow" folks who love talking down to the masses here at kos about how we reacted to the Democratic Senators caving to Lieberman need to STFU and focus on YOURSELVES and how YOU want to respond to the situation.

Warning: It gets intense over the fold, so follow me there at your own peril!

The funny thing is that all of you sheep who keep hiding behind a dumbass argument about being taken seriously when you still can't come up with a way that they WILL take us seriously.  Want to know why?  Because they NEVER will take us seriously except when we agree with them.  Do you think they just said "fuck you" to the dailykos yesterday?  What about the good folks at thinkprogress.org who by the way are under the same umbrella as James Podesta who is leading Obama's transition team.  When thinkprogress.org eloquently and passionately put forth their case of why Joe Lieberman shouldn't have his gavel did that help them make a dent in the Democratic Senators mind yesterday?  When Glen Grenwald writes passionately but eloquently about why they should have shunned Joe Lieberman do you think they listened to him?  When
Rachel Maddow who never even uttered a hint of a cuss word eloquently spoke last week about why Joe Lieberman should lose his gavel did they listen to her?  Jane Hamsher put forth a credible and eloquent case about why Lieberman should have lost his gavel did they listen to her?  They gave all of the "high brow" liberal/progressive folks the same resounding "FUCK YOU" that they gave us and that proves that it has NOTHING to do with our approach.

You and your brood of sheep continute to fight this strawman because you fear standing up and fighting for yourself.  Well I and most of the good folks here at kos realize that NOBODY gets taken seriously by the Democratic Senators except other Democratic senators.  And if we don't do SOMETHING that will never change.  But you can keep on blindly sending them your money and giving them your time while they are making you promises that they never intend to keep.  Maybe you don't realize this but Senators are elected to reflect the will of their constitutents, they are NOT elected to do whatever in the hell they damn well please.  Thats why its called a "REPRESENTATIVE democracy" I for one am done with that shit.  There needs to be a new day not only here at kos but everywhere on the liberal blogosphere that we will NOT be ignored anymore!

Here is my idea from yesterday.  And I intend on following through!

Originally posted to sgwhiteinfla on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:46 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

    •  60 votes (0+ / 0-)

      If we win Georgia, we will have 60 votes.

      The way things are, Lieberman's gonna have a lot of power for a while; nothing we can do about that.  Situations will arise in which if he votes "Nay," (against cloture) a good bill will fail.

      I have every confidence that the voters in Connecticut will do the right thing as soon as possible.

      Ninth amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

      by UneasyOne on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:56:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  We Will Never Have 60 Votes to Seriously Challeng (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        thingamabob, Alice Venturi

        line-in-the-sand issues of Joe.

        Joe is Joe because of what he represents not because of his magical personal powers. MIC for one huge example. Wherever we don't have  Joe, we're not going to have 60 votes.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:06:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not only Joe (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sgwhiteinfla

          How about the Nelsons and Salazar?  How often do we "have" them?  More often than not, on the big votes, they vote with the Republicans, or so it seems.  At the very least, they are unreliable.

          Sixty votes as a sure thing is a pipedream.  I can't believe people are falling for it.  

          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson

          by joanneleon on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:42:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  And just how many of those "60 votes" (4+ / 0-)

        are really progressives that will support a truly progressive agenda?

        The work begins anew. The hope rises again. And the dream lives on! -Ted Kennedy

        by cloudwatcher on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:10:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Uh.... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tomjones, UneasyOne, kfd313, Mistral Wind

    you're talking as if it'd been two years.

    It's been two weeks since the election.

    I'm not mentally equipped for the task at this time.

    by txcronopio on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 08:54:02 AM PST

  •  Your sentiments are fine... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dconrad, pstoller78, Mistral Wind

    except that we're in uncharted territory with respect to decisions like the one on Lieberman. You're talking about a whole new kind of advocacy: going beyond trying to advance issues to arguing, in effect, that we should take a heavier hand in how Democrats manage their internal caucus business.

    Do you think that activists should meddle in committee assignments, seniority assignments, and all the other nitty-gritty Caucus decisions?

    If so, how do we have leverage over Caucus decisions? Threatening to primary every Senator or Rep. who doesn't vote the right way on a Committee Chairmanship won't do it, so if we decide this is a worthy endeavor, how do we accomplish it?

    •  Actually I am going off of historical precendent (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tomjones

      Maybe some of yall don't realize this but there are precedents that cover this kind of thing.  Here read this and then maybe you will understand that not stripping Lieberman of his chairmanships flew in the face of normal business practices.  By the way Joe Lieberman was not supposed to be allowed to keep his seniority nor be granted chairmanships two years ago because he was defeated in a Democratic primary and then ran as an independent.  The Democrats caved then too.

      http://blogs.tnr.com/...

  •  And what is it that you should be taken seriously (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    UneasyOne, Mistral Wind

    for?

    For trying to remove Lieberman from a chairmanship position and then whining incessantly when that fails to come to pass?

    For taking an ANONYMOUS comment from someone as proof that no one cares about what the netroots community thinks?

    Or, should it be for organizing, encouraging and funding one of the most amazing campaign victories in human history?

    Hyperbole perhaps, but the accomplishment that is the Obama victory is absolutely being credited in no small part to the netroots community. It is changing the way all politics-both left and right-is being thought of.

    It was a big accomplishment and part of a big idea movement.

    And by using the success or failure of Democrats to rally behind the removal of a loathsome character from a CHAIRMANSHIP just soils all that hard work.

    I'm sorry, but the people here who put in that hard work deserve better than that.

    And so does this country.

    •  You can believe that if you want (5+ / 0-)

      But its not based on anything.  Actions are supposed to have consequences.  Thats not revenge, thats life.  And the truth is NOT stripping Lieberman after 2 years of little to no action as chair of the Homeland Security AND his campaigning for Republicans is a lot more like what Bush has done the last 8 years than reflecting what Obama talked about in his campaign.  Truly its not change, its more of the same.

      •  Untrue. Obama preached not being small (0+ / 0-)

        and not playing political games.

        And lucky for us, he's also practicing this thusfar.

        •  The Joe vs. the caucus farce (5+ / 0-)

          was not a political game?  "All is forgiven Joe. Please come home" is not a political game? We need him "just to get sixty votes" is not a political game? Then what the hell is a political game? And, oh Joe was so contrite? He gloated to the press about his win.

          The work begins anew. The hope rises again. And the dream lives on! -Ted Kennedy

          by cloudwatcher on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:17:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  The argument you can't win (3+ / 0-)

          Does Joe Lieberman deserve to be chairman of the Homeland Security committee based on his performance thus far along with his behavior on the campaign trail?

          And you can't give a Mitt Romney answer about whether Sarah Palin was qualified to be VP.

          If you can't honestly say that Joe Lieberman deserves his chairmanship then you have to admit that for him to have it is bullshit.  And you also have to admit that giving him the chairmanship was the DEFINITION of small politics.

          Look everybody seems to have one of two opinions.  One is its bullshit and Harry Reid should be fired.  The other is its bullshit but Obama knows best.  Guess whats the constant in those two arguments.

          Joe Lieberman having that chairmanship when there are others who are truly Democrats that are more deserving shows the inherent cowardice and cronyism in the Democratic caucus in the Senate.  Lest we forget Joe Lieberman isn't even supposed to have seniority nor leadership positions because he ran as an independent after losing in a democratic primary.  The rules are there for a reason and right now the Democrats are proving themselves to govern more along the lines of George Bush and Dick Cheney, ala Alberto Gonzales and Donald Rumsfield staying on long past the time it was evident that they should have been fired.  Again this is NOT change we can believe in but in fact more of the same!

    •  If the Dems won't pay attention to us, we can fix (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      joanneleon, Alice Venturi, dconrad

      that.

      It will take time, so does anything.  But we are the rising tide now.  Lieberman the DINO is also a dino - doomed to extinction.

      Reid?  You picked us for an enemy - we wanted to like and respect you.  

      Bad choice.

      Ninth amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

      by UneasyOne on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:03:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You assume that this one action (0+ / 0-)

        indicates that they don't pay attention.

        I happen to think they do pay attention.  As I said, this election proved that you cannot ignore the netroots community.

        They know that.  But, you shouldn't expect a uniform allegiance to every cause and idea that this community has.  And more to the point, this community isn't even uniform on this issue.

    •  Save the Sunshine-up-the-Ass treatment. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dconrad

      encouraging and funding one of the most amazing campaign victories in human history?

      Hyperbole perhaps, but the accomplishment that is the Obama victory is absolutely being credited in no small part to the netroots community. It is changing the way all politics-both left and right-is being thought of.

      It was a big accomplishment and part of a big idea movement.

      "Hyperbole, perhaps"? Ya think?
      And save the "have a cookie" / Pat on the Head treatment for the 'roots, too.

      "Leadership" and "Change We can Believe In"  in Washington is looking  
      "More of the Same" EVERY. DAY.

      It is toxic and will rehab the Republicans quicker than we can imagine. We went from Nixon to Carter in 2 years then to Reagan in 4.

      You used to work on O - Rings at NASA?

      Sorry, but this is NOT looking like the beginnings of a New Deal
      no matter how much we need one.

      Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance
      and conscientious stupidity. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by Robert Davies on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:21:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  yes they seem to be completely ignoring us (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nupstateny

    but what's the alternative?  McCain/Palin?
    Well, let's have a bit of faith, that's all we have for now and maybe, just maybe, things will turn out for the best.
    At least that's what most of us seem to be resigned to for right now.

  •  wha? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mistral Wind

    "So maybe some of you "high brow" folks who love talking down to the masses here at kos about how we reacted to the Democratic Senators caving to Lieberman need to STFU and focus on YOURSELVES and how YOU want to respond to the situation."

    This is so stupid.

    "Americans wish to be settled. Only so far as they are unsettled is there any hope for them" -Emerson.

    by kfd313 on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:00:45 AM PST

  •  A real participatory democracy... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dconrad

    ...won't come about through the MSM on the voting booth.  The only chance that we have for it is on the tubes,  which is why net neutrality is so important.  Despite its recent success in this election, the web based communities are still in their formative years.  They will, however, come of age rapidly and then they will be a significant player in the democratic process, with or without f-bombs.

    Reality is that which refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." -- Philip K. Dick ....... {-8.25 / -5.64}

    by carver on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:01:31 AM PST

    •  But the Mainstream Communication Environment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dconrad

      still remains feudal by design of the Framers.

      We've been astoundingly lucky this cycle to have several new momentarily-democratic media fall into the peoples' hands.

      But it won't last because media cannot remain democratic under our system.

      Remember, radio was quite democratic for around 15 years beginning in the 50's, because big money had hopped over to the new TV. We had all that explosion of marginalized trad and folk music, quickly innovated into rock and other pop forms.

      And then faster than you can say "quick" radio was corporatized, and now 3-4 companies run it all.

      Same thing's gonna happen to internet media. We've had blogs barely 5 years having any consequence, Youtube maybe 3 years. We have maybe one more election to have limited broadcast power before it's bought out. I wouldn't be surprised if raw economics can accomplish it even with a neutral net.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:14:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't doubt the MSM... (0+ / 0-)

        ...desire to control the web based media as they do all other media.  The big difference is that the web based media requires active participation, while all others (except for LTE to the editor) are passive.  That, IMO, is the element that MSM won't be able to overcome.  Their only options are to leave it alone or just kill it outright.  While the web based media is still in a formative stage it's to well developed to crush very easily.

        Reality is that which refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." -- Philip K. Dick ....... {-8.25 / -5.64}

        by carver on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 10:46:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I feel your pain (4+ / 0-)

    As I said in a comment on "forgiving" Lieberman yesterday

    We on the progressive left are not irrelevant, but only because moderate and right of center Blue Dog Dem Senators and Representatives know that when faced with a choice between a right of center Dem and a right wing Republican we will vote Democratic. We do not have another farther left party to go to.  We are the Dem base because we are stuck. So they ignore us except at election time. Then they crave our support, tell us what we want to hear (again), and when elected do what they damn well please.  We are the suckers to their "shell game."

    Forgive everyone! Storm the Bastille! Release all the prisoners!

    The work begins anew. The hope rises again. And the dream lives on! -Ted Kennedy

    by cloudwatcher on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 09:08:45 AM PST

  •  Here is an idea, sgt. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sgwhiteinfla

    And, let me specify, it is not original to me. I read it here during the Primaries.

    Set up a fund such that at times like the FISA, bailout and Lieberman fiascos, rather than endlessly bitching, we all put in five dollars to primary the rogue of our choice. But keep the winner of the pot secret.

    In two years when there is a two million dollar secret slush  (or what ever) fund to wield, target it against one or two of the Dems known for routinely sticking it to the netroots. Multiplied across the liberal blogosphere this could easily become huge and a potential threat to the incumbency of even the biggest wig on the hill.

    The map looks better in the next election, but from there it goes downhill. Right about the time that Obama is looking for his majorities on the hill to run for a second term we just might be in a position to really make a statement.

    Don't get mad, get even. That is how the religious right works and it has been so successful that they have managed to push the most extremist positions unchallenged in the Republican Party. They may not have gotten what they wanted, but they are certainly respected.

    If there is one constant about human nature it is that we are far more worried about losing something we cherish than gaining something we find useful. The netroots have been very useful but no one can say that they have ever been exactly threatening.

  •  Sources and examples well chosen (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sgwhiteinfla

    You chose some of the best voices in the progressive blogosphere to use as examples.  When you're disagreeing with all of those people, IMHO, you really need step back and consider things.

    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson

    by joanneleon on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:57:52 PM PST

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