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I will admit I am not an expert on the economy, but what I do have is common sense. I will also admit that after almost 8 years of living in hell under bush, I am not extremely optimistic that things will be able to be fixed so easily....

Follow me below for more...

After reading this diary I was feeling somewhat optimistic that one of the biggest problems we face; our totally screwed up health care system, could be fixed...., that was until I got into a health care discussion with a woman who is attending the same job-training class as me.

This woman was a typical republican.  She was dead-set against any sort of government run health care system.  Period.  
I tried appealing to her sense of humanity, but nothing.  I tried my favourite tactic of asking her if she was "pro-life", which of course she was because she's a typical republican.  I asked her if she thought that people dying because they don't or didn't have health care coverage was something that was about life?  She of course didn't know what to say to that, so she tried the usual lies and scare tactics that have been spread about government run health care for decades....it costs too much (lie; see the diary I linked to above), that it would raise every one's taxes; I countered with telling her the all the money that has been spent on bush's wars would of been plenty to have started a government run health care system...etc....you know all their agruments as well as I do.

What really made me lose some of my earlier optimism was just this; how can you change the system when there are so many selfish and greedy people out there who don't give a rat's ass if someone else is suffering because they don't have health coverage?  After my fruitless discussion with that woman, I started to realize that people just don't really care unless it affects them personally.  They don't want to give up what they have to help someone else. It's sad, but it's true.  You add in the years of republican spin brain-washing, and just how the hell do you reach these people?  
If the new politics is to work together, then how do you work together on an issue that democrats and republicans differ so strongly on?  I have some hopes that Obama can change things, but I really think it's going to take some real boldness and courage to change the health care system to something that leaves NO ONE out.

This lead me to thinking about the economy as a whole, and not just the U.S.'s economy, but the world's economy....
My own governor (Jennifer Granholm of Michigan) said this past weekend on the local TV news, "that the reason the "Big 3" auto companies cannot compete with the foreign car companies is because they (the foreign car co's) don't have to provide health care coverage for their workers, because it's covered by their governments."(I tried to find a link to the quote, but I am clueless when it comes to searching on the internet).  Makes sense, doesn't it?  

Until our health care system is just as fair as every other country we are trying to compete with, we cannot make it.
The health care problem is not only a huge part of our economic crisis, but it could also be the solution if anyone is brave enough to make some REAL changes.
Until then, I still think we are fucked.

A  p.s.  I just got done reading nyceve's
diary, and I am not feeling too optimistic that we can get "un-fucked" anytime soon.
(BIG SIGH...)

Originally posted to angrybird on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 03:53 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  me too sigh n/t (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird, myrealname, linkage, rogerdaddy
  •  Is Obama even for (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird, Jagger, linkage, rogerdaddy

    a "government-run" health care system?

  •  and why republicans don't fit in my life (10+ / 0-)

    I started to realize that people just don't really care unless it affects them personally.

    If only Americans had agonized over every detail of the candidate's history when deciding to vote for GWB as they did with Barack Obama.

    by lisastar on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:02:23 PM PST

  •  The Brits are in for some interesting times (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird, linkage, rogerdaddy

    also....wild moves in the Pound.

  •  If it's put forward (9+ / 0-)

    as a way to level the business playing field, it's got a chance. With other countries providing health care, that puts our companies at a disadvantage in international competition. It also puts America at a disadvantage when foreign companies are looking at where to locate facilities; I think Toyota actually chose Canada over the US for one of their assembly plants because of the Canadian health care system.

    Sometimes you have to put it in terms of benefitting business, rather than human beings, to get the Republicans' attention.

    "Once you choose hope, anything's possible." ~Christopher Reeve

    by Cali Scribe on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:04:52 PM PST

  •  our country has been run by idiots for the past (6+ / 0-)

    8 years.

    Just the fact that we have a president who might actually not look for any excuse to take a vacation will make a huge difference.

  •  When the health care crisis (6+ / 0-)

    affects someone that woman knows, then she will demand that something be done.  Until then, who knows - sometimes in the heat of a discussion people tend to be stubborn but I know it can happen that your points will stay with her and she will begin to think about what you said and maybe, just maybe change her mind.  

  •  "I got mine, you get yours" is such an (10+ / 0-)

    ingrained part of the "Amurkkhan Spirit" in this country that I truly feel that until and unless Everyone is forced to feel some personal financial pain, at least bordering on homelessness if not actually there, than a large number of selfish people will continue on their merry, mall-shopping ways convinced that it could never happen to them.
    It needs to happen to them. Until it does they will continue to look down on us "little people" wondering why we can't find those illusive boot-straps like they, in their hopelessly delusional minds did.
    Yeah...I think we might be truly fucked. I hope not and I try to be optimistic but the signs aren't good.
    I need a drink.
    Peace ;-/>

    "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And somebody's giving booze to these goddamn things!"-Hunter S. Thompson ;-)>

    by rogerdaddy on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:07:33 PM PST

  •  We are so beyond f*cked I don't even know (6+ / 0-)

    what to call it. There will be recovery for some, disaster for many, and the usual fat cats will continue to skim off the top of the assets that rightfully belong to you and I, and we will be unable to stop them.

    Our land, water, seas, airwaves, natural resources, and everything we own are diverted for the profit of the few, and removed from the benefit of the many.

    Those who have rarely care about giving their own assets and resources to those who don't- will this ever change?

    President Barack Obama!

    by kate mckinnon on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:08:42 PM PST

  •  See my family not really affected by the economic (4+ / 0-)

    crisis, yet we realize we need to look out for the less fortunate, it what makes this country great.

    "There is nothing wrong with America can't be cured by what is right with America" -Bill Clinton

    by SensibleDemocrat on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:09:23 PM PST

  •  How do you reach those people... (6+ / 0-)

    You don't because you can't

    Their souls have been deadened by decades of manipulation and they are afraid of their own shadows and in many many cases, they are just downright hateful

    Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a man religion and he will starve to death praying for a fish.

    by Goodbye Kitty on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:09:35 PM PST

  •  Honestly, you change the system (26+ / 0-)

    by immediately focusing on changing the system as soon as you get in the door, and not delay or entertain the objections raised by people who will block anything and everything you propose except the status quo in the first place.

    The Clinton Health Care reform got bogged down because there was a strategy to bog it down to kill it. William Kristol wrote an essay stating that, if what he called 'HilaryCare' passed, it would mean the death of the GOP and the Conservative Movement because people like their social programs once they have the benefits established and in use.

    The Right blocks reform the same way they block progressives in other areas: by obstruction and by delay.

    You don't have to convince the woman who thinks you are a communist for wanting some form of National Health Insurance to reform our nation's healthcare woes. Fix the system. Don't fall for any delay or obstruction tactics. Don't get concern trolled into putting reform off. Just do it and get it done while the political will exists to get it done.

    This lady will bitch, moan, and complain to Rush Limbaugh when she calls him in anger the day it passes into law, and then put her National Health card in her wallet next to her Social Security card. She won't refuse it anymore than she or any other conservative refuses their Social Security benefits 'on principle'.

    Jindal May Be Republicans Obama By Michael Leahy Washington Post Staff Writer 11/30/08 (Not even sworn in!)

    by LeftHandedMan on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:10:09 PM PST

      •  Thank you (14+ / 0-)

        We need to stop doing this to ourselves.

        We really do.

        Everytime the far Right gets to decide what we do, the country gets more screwed up.

        We have a golden opportunity to get something done, and the howls of protest from the Corner or from Fox News should be a sign that we are doing the right thing. They have been wrong about everything.
        About the economy, about the war, about competence and who really respects the law and what America stands for.

        They get no veto power. None. They can vote 'no'. Fine. But they don't get to lose a national referendum on America's direction and dictate terms. Not anymore.

        I feel sorry for this woman, I really do, but there is no way I would allow her to depress me and make me feel hopeless. She doesn't deserve that kind of power. She deserves to be pitied.

        A Sean Hannity loving talk radio addict who doesn't care about anybody else as long as she or he gets hers shouldn't have the power to make a liberal feel helpless or discouraged.

        No more than President Barack Obama should be made to feel that because James Inhofe doesn't like something it should be re-negotiated or scrapped.

        They will have to get used to losing.

        Elections have consequences.

        Jindal May Be Republicans Obama By Michael Leahy Washington Post Staff Writer 11/30/08 (Not even sworn in!)

        by LeftHandedMan on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:21:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  so true (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      angrybird

      because it's "in her interest"

      If only Americans had agonized over every detail of the candidate's history when deciding to vote for GWB as they did with Barack Obama.

      by lisastar on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 06:35:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Comment and applies across the board (0+ / 0-)

      Every area where Obama really wants to affect change, listen for very significant cries from wounded elephants residing therein. I call that labor pains of democracy.

      Hire the competent: Draft Tammy Duckworth for Secretary of Veterans Affairs.

      by llbear on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 08:33:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Who won the last election? (6+ / 0-)

    We did, right? So there are more of us than them, and the majority should be able to pass some health care improvements.

    Now, given the whole deal with electronic records and insurance and P4P and PQRI and Medicare and Medicaid and PPOs and employer-sponsored, group plans and HSAs, I think that a move to a single-payer, national plan is too ambitious for the near term.

    I'd like to have that near term, but I'd like a magic pony, too. Realistically speaking, I think we can try to get more people insured. We can try to curb some abuses that nyceve has dubbed "murder by spreadsheet."

    In the near term, just getting these things done would be tremendous progress. As for republican resistance, most of their objections stem from a core belief that government fails at everything and that having government fail at healthcare would be worse than what we have now.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:10:13 PM PST

  •  Oh, if only it were possible to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird, Jagger

    "unfuck"!  Some things just aren't undoable.

    You are right. We are at the leading edge of the retirement of boomers, with a shrinking workforce, expanding retirement segment, 10 trillion in debt, .5 trillion deficits, two intractable wars, crumbling infrastructure, collapsing economy... and we are talking about trillions in stimulus spending in conjunction with tax "CUTS"?  It doesn't compute. We are fucked.

  •  what about medicare? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird, Jagger, golconda2, sydneyluv

    I got into a discussion with two of my co-workers who are solid republicans during the whole Joe the Plumber period. They were actually agreeing with ole Joe's philosophy about socialism. I pointed out that we already have socialism in this country. The library, public education, post office, fire dept., police dept. is socialism. I also pointed out when they were arguing against govt. run healthcare that Medicare is a govt. run healthcare program. Next time, I would suggest asking any pro republican who is against govt. run healthcare about their views on Medicare.

    •  they all say they want to scrap (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      angrybird

      it entirely - and then they take their Medicare card when they turn 65 and fork it over to each doctor they see.  

      I was wise enough to never grow up while fooling most people into believing I had. - Margaret Mead

      by fayea on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 07:20:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Some people care far more about their tax (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird, golconda2

    rate than they do for the people in their neighborhood.

    I care far more for the people in my neighborhood/community/nation than I do about my tax rate.

    Some people want the government to legislate some morality, apparently (no abortions for you!), but not all morality (health care to keep you alive after your born)!

    Who was it that said the ownership society means that once your born, you're on your own?

    Oh yeah! "That one!"

    Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking. -J.M. Keynes

    by elropsych on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:15:29 PM PST

  •  I think this is not the best line to take: (4+ / 0-)

    I countered with telling her the all the money that has been spent on bush's wars would of been plenty to have started a government run health care system...etc....you know all their agruments as well as I do.

    I think it is better to argue that they are already spending the money on insurance premiums, and would in fact spend less under single payer.

    However, I don't think that works particularly well, either.  There is a streak in some people even stranger and worse than this:

    They don't want to give up what they have to help someone else. It's sad, but it's true.

    Some people won't help others even if it costs them nothing.  

    On the other had, some of these same people will give to charity.  I think there is some kind of self-affirmation involved in charity giving (which is otherwise comparatively useless compared to government "everyone-in" programs) that motivates them.  Paying taxes is not self-affirming for them, for right-wingers.  I suppose there is some kind of politico-psychological mess in there, involving individualism and ideology, which keeps us from living in a decent country.  Hell, I dunno.

    •  I think I am just too idealistic.... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LithiumCola, JG in MD

      I want everyone to care about everyone else....

      "Imagine all the people, Living life in peace..." -John Lennon

      by angrybird on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:24:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's the government "everyone-in" part (4+ / 0-)

      that some people don't like:

      I think there is some kind of self-affirmation involved in charity giving (which is otherwise comparatively useless compared to government "everyone-in" programs

      Some people I know who are against the federal government providing these kinds of social programs argue vehemently that it is not the role of the federal government, and that private charities are better equipped to act as a safety net.  I hear this a lot from my conservtive relatives.  One of their arguments is specifically against the "everyone-in" notion.  They have a problem providing refundable tax credits, or government-provided health insurance, etc. to people who, in their view, are in a situation because of choices they've made and things they have control over.  In other words, they are ok with giving direct financial aid -- a check -- to the disabled because they are not in a position to help themselves.  They are not ok with giving direct financial aid -- a check -- to someone who dropped out of high school and, as a result, is in a low-paying job.  They are ok with giving the high school dropout training, or education, to enable him to get a better job, but not, in their words, "a check" (or direct financial assistance).  (They'll give you the "give a man a fish" versus "teach him to fish for himself" analogy.) It's that old notion of the "deserving poor" versus the "undeserving poor."  They think there is a difference, and they think the government doesn't make any distinction.  That's the thing that really bugs these conservatives about government programs.

      •  Yes, that sounds familiar. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        angrybird, Jagger

        "Deserving" and "undeserving" poor.  "They think there is a difference," yup.

        But the thing is, I don't buy it.  People are not so stupid as to not get that that argument makes no sense.  Conservatives would not say the same thing about fertilizer and patches of crab grass, for example (you can't fertilize your whole lawn since that would be helping the crab grass.)  Conservatives get statistics when they want to.

        . . . and that is even if we accept their premise that there are "undeserving poor" (crabgrass) which I do not accept.

        I think the point is at base more ideological and uglier than that.  The rest is rationalization.

        •  Some, maybe (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          angrybird, Jagger, LithiumCola, tnproud2b

          I think the point is at base more ideological and uglier than that.  The rest is rationalization.

          Some people undoubtedly use this as a rationalization for "keeping what they've got" and not helping others.  On the other hand, for some it is a real philosphical belief.  I can tell you, for example, that my relatives are big big givers -- both in time and in percent of their income -- to charities, and, while they are comfortable middle class, they are not rich.  

          They simply believe that it is not the role of the federal government to do these kinds of things, for several reasons, including (but not limited to) the "underserving poor" notion.  

  •  It's hard to talk sense to the senseless (6+ / 0-)

    But...
    If you would like some fresh facts try these that are fairly easy to find at

    census.gov
    cdc.gov
    commonwealthfund.org
    kff.org
    who.org

    The US is spending a fully funded $2.3+ trillion per year on health care

    1. which is almost twice what other nations spend

    and yields a higher infant mortality rate and a

    1. lower life expectancy
    1. and still excludes nearly 17% of our population from the system
    1. 30 % of people with insurance still can't pay for health care
    1. rations care based upon income
    1. disregards patient outcome
    1. allows and sometimes requires futile care (if you can afford it)
    1. 60% of that $2+ Trillion dollars is from our tax dollars.

    We get a lousy bang for our buck.

    You can switch around the subject and agree that leaving insurers intact would be fine if we regulate them like they are in the Netherlands or Germany. Insurers there have specified minimum coverages, community ratings and although they can make a profit, the percentage of premium dollars spent on health care is specified.

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never has and never will be. Thomas Jefferson

    by JDWolverton on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:23:34 PM PST

    •  Thank you very much! (0+ / 0-)

      I think it's going to be a bit before I am willing to try and talk to someone like that "creature" ( I stole IhateBush's phrase from above) again, but I am glad to have more info for the next time.

      "Imagine all the people, Living life in peace..." -John Lennon

      by angrybird on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:27:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I live in Michigan.. (0+ / 0-)

    The reason the Big 3 don't compete with Honda, Toyota, and Subaru is because the Big 3 make big shitty cars period. We can blame wages, health care, whatever, but those cars are pieces of crap and no one outside of Michigan likes to be caught dead driving them.  Chrysler should go bankrupt. The American auto industry is a farce..there is no way Ford and GM can expect to make profits until they get rid of the SUV's, downsize, and focus on profitable, fuel efficient cars. Only the stupid people of Michigan love these cars...you leave the area and no one wants them.

    People of Michigan want nothing to change. They want no sacrifice. If nothing is done, instead of a couple thousand out of work, the companies will tank and everyone will be out of work.  

    •  I like my piece of crap American cars... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      angrybird

      ...and so do 50% of American consumers... so, please leave your anti-American elitism at the door.

      The people of Michigan have sacrificed enough... or have you not driven past Flint, Michigan recently?

      I suggest that you get out of Big Pharma Ann Arbor and drive around the rest of the state to see how you want to economically destroy the people living there...

      Michigan IS cars... It's like corn IS Iowa.  you obviously haven't lived there long if y9ou haven't figured that out...  you take away cars from Michigan, not only do you impoverish the state for a generation at least, you kill its soul....

      And Ford is doing just fine, thank you...  they have said that they don't need bailout money and can hold out until the recession ends... although the recession will last a damn long time if we have it your way...

      Comments that say "GM workers should get retraining" without SPECIFIC DETAILS about those "new jobs" that never come are trollworthy

      by LordMike on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 07:02:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The recession is going to last at least another (0+ / 0-)

        18 months FYI

      •  Pragmatism vs stupidity (0+ / 0-)

        The harsh reality that Michiganders dont like to realize is that the lack of a diversified economy is precisely what got the state into its current mess. If all Michigan is, "is cars", then its no wonder that when the Big 3 have a rough quarter the entire state suffers. Its only car parts, and cars here period. And when one suffers, they take each other down. Gas prices are ridiculous here but it might have something to do with the fact that people here like to drive 90mph on the highway and then complain about having to fill there tanks when they burn through it foolishly.

        Contrary to what you say, its not elitism. Its just the mentality of of the people here.  No one wants to sacrifice...and if that happens, there will be no jobs and no company period. Elitism is not what caused these companies to tank. What happened is that while Ford, GM, and Chrysler thought they were visionaries making SUVs that got 4-11 mph (which just dumbfounds me), the rest of the worldwide auto industry was smart enough to see that this type of vehicle was unsustainable and got onto making fuel efficient vehicles. So now they are playing catch-up on the technology instead of being competetive. The proof is that Ford's best selling car is its fuel efficient and tiny Focus. And CEO Mullaly just said that Ford expects to break even, not pull a profit until 2011....what do you suspect is going to happen in the interim? I want these companies to do well but I think the only way to do that is to go with what is working...and that's to design better cars....which they have done but only too late, and kicking and screaming. In addition they need to reduce their fleet and get rid of the guzzlers...Better to downsize and rebuild then take the whole company down.

        By the way, Ann Arbor, is hardly Big Pharma...in fact in case you forgot Pfizer left and took 10,000 jobs. So maybe you should get your ass in your American clunker and drive out here to Ann Arbor while I  drive through Flint in my Toyota. lol

  •  Take heart (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird

    In a survey done in 2007 by a republican consultant, 51% of Republicans polled supported universal health care.
    The Hill
    As others have stated above, some people are hopeless, and it's not worth your time worrying about them.
    Just know that there are less and less of them every year.

  •  We're not fucked because of that.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird, Mike Taylor

    but you're correct we are all fucked.

    I'm Exxon John and I approve this message---McCain's Scumbags

    by Obamacrat on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:32:32 PM PST

  •  I watched an excellent you tube interview with a (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird, Jagger, lisastar, sydneyluv

    philanthropist from India called Sudha Murty. The anecdotes she shares with her audience are something else and it is truly an inspirational video (note it goes for a long time). However one of the audience asked Sudha a question similar to what you have just posed about changing the minds of those who refuse to see the logic in embracing our humanity.
    And it was this

    "In life you cannot change people, you cannot change others attitudes. If you want to be happy, you have to change your own attitude." Sudha Murty

    Here is the video link.
    http://www.citris-uc.org/...

    It may not help everyone, but it certainly did help put things into perspective for me.
    I think the message was that change comes first from within and by individual actions will we be able to be happy and in turn maybe change a few others attitudes.
    In other words seeing people happy in their own lives is contagious and everyone wants happiness do they not?

    Apologies if that seems a bit over the top, but it helps me alleviate some of the frustration at the seemingly irrational and stubborn beliefs some people have.

    "In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations." Law of the Iroquois Confederacy

    by Unenergy on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:33:35 PM PST

    •  Thank you for this comment... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jagger

      and I didn't think it was too over the top. :-)  I know sometimes I get too caught up in my idealism and I get crushed when I come across someone who is so self-centered and selfish and just doesn't care about anyone but themselves.... I find it so sad.

      "Imagine all the people, Living life in peace..." -John Lennon

      by angrybird on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:38:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't be dismayed. You should be encouraged (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        angrybird

        by the fact that you aren't "self-centered and selfish." Otherwise, there would have been two "creatures" having a very different conversation at that training.

        Your conversation encourages me.

        Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking. -J.M. Keynes

        by elropsych on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:41:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you for the very... (0+ / 0-)

          sweet compliment, and I'm very glad to hear that my horrible conversation with that woman encourages you, it will be a while before I attempt that again.
          Take care. :-)

          "Imagine all the people, Living life in peace..." -John Lennon

          by angrybird on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:48:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  no, no, no, no! That conversation was NOThorrible (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Unenergy

            The conversation between two closedminded creatures empowering each others' ineptitude is horrible.

            Your engagement and courage transformed what could have been horrible into something altogether different.

            Attempt it every time. It is our desire to avoid conflict that these people twist and turn to their advantage. (Reid and Pelosi, are you listening?)

            Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking. -J.M. Keynes

            by elropsych on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 05:11:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •   We're fuuuuuuuuccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird

    ed!

  •  How? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, angrybird, sydneyluv

    how can you change the system when there are so many selfish and greedy people out there who don't give a rat's ass if someone else is suffering because they don't have health coverage?

    At the ballot box, that's how.

    Those people are a small minority. The only reason they've held on this long is because the insurance companies have a lot of money and play dirty.

    But they ARE going to lose, their heyday is almost over.

    The W ... it stands for Wrong.

    by nosleep4u on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 05:22:07 PM PST

  •  I agree, the economy sucks, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird

    but don't do anything drastic which will affect your life and family.

  •  Jennifer Granholm (0+ / 0-)

    may be somewhat hesitant to give a full answer to why the Big 3 auto companies are doing so poorly, though legacy healthcare costs are certainly one factor.

  •  The VA is government healthcare (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird

    So is Medicare. Both of those provide great service for the money. Private healthcare has 13 to 30% overhead depending on which calculation you use vs 3% for Medicare.

    So who insures this women in your class? Her husband? So what if he loses his job their health insurance or dies? Does she have $7-12,000 a year to cover the cost? She's in a job training class. I think not.

    We'll just have to do the right thing in spite of people like her. Yes we can!

    Sometimes the magic works.......sometimes it doesn't

    by Unrepentant Liberal on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 05:26:41 PM PST

  •  Unless someone is in the health care industry, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird

    it is in the personal self greedy interest to want single payer health insurance.

    This is the way to win the argument.  Most people understand that health insurance is terrible.  Single payer is better for everyone except the health care industry.

  •  Misinformed Republican Mistaken (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird, csquared

    No relying on those who would not care. It's ours to make work by supporting the sane & intelligent members of government. I can work with that.

    what we can do, we will do

    by lemarais17 on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 05:51:30 PM PST

  •  US Dollar Slips Against Canadian Acorn (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dump Terry McAuliffe, angrybird

    New York--The U.S. dollar touched a one-month low against the Canadian acorn Monday, continuing a downward trend that began in 2004 with the announcement of the imminent retirement of Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan and increasing inflation worries among investors...

    At the close of trading Monday, the Canadian acorn bought USD $1.1660, up from $1.1593 Friday.

    Although the value of the U.S. dollar has fallen steadily against the Lithuanian nail and the Estonian crab apple since early this year, many financial experts had predicted that it would hold its own against the acorn.

    "The inedible dollar simply does not offer the same long-term security or short-term benefits as the acorn," said James Aucker of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. "It is even falling against the Costa Rican pocket, the Latvian thimble, and the German Kinder Surprise Egg, which combines delicious chocolate with a fun, easy-to-assemble toy."

    This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

    by Snud on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 06:15:18 PM PST

  •  I don't think Single Payer will happen soon..... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird

    ....but I think they'll work out some kind of "half a loaf" system that will keep the insurance companies happy and, hence, the money grubbers who could destroy any kind of reform happy.

    Expect universal mandates.

  •  I can't help but wonder if that job-training (0+ / 0-)

    program is in any way funded by public monies or if it's paid for entirely out-of-pocket by the participants.

  •  That woman isn't a member of Congress (0+ / 0-)

    So who cares what she thinks?  The last election has already been decided.  I guess she voted for Republican candidates.  Unfortunately, the Republicans only have 41-42 Senators and are a tiny minority in the House.  People like that woman can just stew about what is happening, it's too late for them to stop it.  

    Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

    by Asak on Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 10:39:22 PM PST

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