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I know I am a bit late putting in my two cents worth over the Rev. Warren situation, but my phone was turned off last week Monday (yes, I am on dial-up), so I was without the Internet and dailykos for a while.
I am sure I missed hundreds of diaries on this subject, but I feel the need to say something to my gay and lesbian friends.....

More below....

I want to say to my gay and lesbian friends that I'm sorry.  I am sorry that after the horrible outcome of Prop. 8 that this had to happen.  I am sure it feels like salt in your wounds and I truly feel for you.

Because I have been without the Internet for about a week, I was relying heavily on Keith and Rachel to keep me informed, and when I saw on Rachel's show last week who had been picked to do Obama's swearing in, I was devastated by it.  I couldn't help but think of how my gay friends and my gay uncle felt about this development when I (as a straight woman) felt sickened by it.

I have to say that I feel that the way to universal acceptance isn't by tolerating intolerance.  And rewarding intolerance by including someone with extreme intolerant views isn't going to make them see our side of things any sooner or better.  If anything, I feel it will just reinforce their views making it that much harder to achieve the change our gay brothers and sisters so deserve.

I know, some of you are going to tell me this is the new politics, but, is it really?  Aren't Democrats notorious for trying to work with "the other guys" and trying to see other points of view?  Don't Democrats cave far too often on issues just to reach a compromise with "the other guy?"  
In my 40 years on this planet I have seen many issues that I care about (civil rights for all, universal health care etc.) not make the advances I feel that should of been made in 40 years.  
Yes, the republicans are to blame for much of the reason why things aren't changing fast enough, but backing down and making far too many compromises on the part of the Democrats doesn't help either.
I want real new politics and that starts by being tougher and not compromising and validating intolerance.  We won for fuck's sake!  It's the republicans who should be doing the compromising, not us!  I mean really, does anyone really think that by having Rev. Warren as part of Obama's ceremony the republicans will suddenly be more willing to work with us for a change?  I don't think so.  So, what is the point of causing so much pain to so many people who not only supported Obama, but worked their asses off trying to get him elected?

Anyway, that's my two cents worth.  
Great big (((HUGS))) to all my gay and lesbian friends and again, I am so sorry....

Originally posted to angrybird on Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 01:47 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tips for.... (19+ / 0-)

    real equality for all!!!

    "Imagine all the people, Living life in peace..." -John Lennon

    by angrybird on Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 01:47:49 AM PST

  •  f*ck yeah! see also (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird, LivesInAShoe, debedb, MariaWr

    It would be the first principle of sane kindness that all forms of sacrifice would be avoided, if at all possible."--Adam Phillips

    by andrewj54 on Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 01:49:34 AM PST

  •  It's Obama Inadvertently Saying.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird, Karl Rover

    ...."Goddamn the gays."

    I wonder if he's figured this out yet. (He's smart. Of course he has. I bet he's kicking himself.)

    •  So Obama was briliant during his campaign and (0+ / 0-)

      just now turned stupid?   Sure, that has to be it.  

      This must be why he dumped Rev. Wright, skewered Don Imus, and reached across the aisle to one of the most hateful people of all.

      They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20 ~~ Dennis Kucinich

      by dkmich on Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 03:05:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not bloody likely. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Obama revealed his blind spot on this with McClurkin. This is just Part 2.

      "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

      by homogenius on Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 07:23:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  You know (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dkmich, angrybird, debedb, MariaWr

    I was ambivalent. I said enough, with the Warren Diaries. But the Kossers got through to me. I actually read hundreds of diaries and comments. I believe you, and I changed my opinion, and I now give a shit. And I won't go back.

    Equal Rights For All.

    Don't Tread On Us.

    Happy Holidays, Loofah.

    by Karl Rover on Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 02:35:23 AM PST

  •  You're wrong. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angrybird, MariaWr

    Your "two cents" is worth five ten one hundred one zillion.



    Intolerance/tolerance is more complex than that and change over the long run almost always involves the creation and sustenance of inconsistencies and improbabilities -- as you're trying to unfold a person or a culture so that it gets from point A to point B.  

    It's like getting out of a muckity cesspool.  It begins with recognizing that the people immersed in shit (of their own creation and from the people who went before them) are not necessarily identical to the shit itself.  That creates the possibility of change by (1) getting at least some people to stop wallowing in hatred and ignorance and (2) to decrease the amount of shit that's being added to the cesspool on a daily basis.

    So you start by recognizing that a person immersed in shit isn't necessarily the shit itself, creating the possibility (however unlikely) of change.

    Then you start working on getting them to recognize the unpleasantness of living in shit.  How it makes it hard to breathe.  How it makes it hard to see and move around.  How unattractive it makes you to others.  How it affects your children.  How there's an alternative -- right over there.

    You're going to have all kinds of inconsistencies.  The person you're working on will be half in, half out.  They'll rationalize that they like where they are or that living in shit is better.  If you touch them, or get close enough to talk, you'll get shit on yourself.  You'll be associating with their shit.  Even as you're trying to get away from it.  They'll complain that it's too hard.  That they can't.  Their friends -- and your friends -- will resist and fling shit at you or push/pull you in (and you thought being thrown under the bus was bad -- it was just a metaphor -- the shit of bigotry is REAL).  

    As people emerge from the pool of shit, they will still have it all over them.  And in their habits of thinking and living everyday life.  And in their relationships.  In how they talk and act and see the world.  

    Some people will stay more or less in the cesspool until the day they die.  Some will leave but keep going back.  Others will leave but never quite get clean.  Or ... there's no way around this ... they'll be so used to shitting on themselves that they'll keep doing that, making temporary shitpuddles wherever they go.

    Over time though, the goal is to reduce the amount of time people spend wallowing in cesspools of hate.  Getting people to come out is messy, hard, a long-term project, full of complications and inconsistencies.

    So Warren and teh Republicans don't suddenly change.  But that's never how it worked anyway.  Stonewall didn't just magically make everything right.  Milk getting elected didn't suddenly fix things.  10,000,000 people coming out and speaking out, and MARRYING each other (with or without legal sanction) won't suddenly, magically get us from point A to point B.  There was, is, and will still be shit to deal with and where there's shit, there's probably someone making it ....

    So Warren associates in public with Obama.  And maybe he slightly cleans up his language to make it "politically correct."  Maybe he concedes a point or two.  Those things add up.  Maybe 1000 of his 1000000 followers are a little less intolerant because of something related to his association with Melissa Etheridge or whoever.  And maybe 20000 of his followers become a little more preoccupied with poverty or the environment or HIV or whatever INSTEAD of their insane obsession with making more shit to sit in.  Over time, less shit.


  •  This scenario forces the conversation. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    homogenius, angrybird

    Kind of like the Wright brouhaha and conversations on race. Except this is intentional.
    I have read and reread many of the "Warren" diaries here. Andrewj54's diary refers to the "scrubbing' of RW's website, only to find the filth buried deeper. I hope this is not a portent, superficial tolerance but the hate goes deeper, but I know better. Needs the bright light of day, and this Warren person on the inaugural agenda means Mr. Warren is getting that bright light as the persona of Prop 8.
    Keep the conversations going.

    Whatever the Repuglicans say, the truth is the opposite.

    by MariaWr on Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 03:25:29 AM PST

    •  Dangerous idea though. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      murrayewv, angrybird, MariaWr

      Exposure to the sunlight of the real McCain and the real Palin due to process of the presidential campaign resulted in their discredit - because they lost the election. As a result, albeit after a time, they finally shut their foul mouths (Palin, having less experience and more intolerance did so much after McCain), and the media stopped reporting their statements.

      Warren, on the contrary, is not running for office, so he and his followers will not be thusly discredited. In fact they will claim mainstream acceptance and moral victory from his presence at the inauguration. Unfortunately, therefore, we'll be hearing more from and about him for a very long time.

  •  To be honest, we're all intolerant of something (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    or someone we shouldn't be. We'd be in for a hell of a paradox if we are all to "non-tolerate" intolerant people, because that would negate looking in a mirror.

    I'm Zamboni Hussein Palin, and I approve this message.

    by Bobs Telecaster on Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 03:54:58 AM PST

  •  if you are intolerant (0+ / 0-)

    of what you consider 'intolerant'...

    all you're left with is intolerance.


    'uppity elitist' aka educated Af-Am

    by mallyroyal on Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 04:06:23 AM PST

  •  I copy one of my posts as relevant. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    homogenius, angrybird

    (Of Pastor Neimoeller): "when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but after all he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he as not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and then he did something - but then it was too late."

    "You see," my collegue went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse..."

    (from Milton Meyer, "They Thought They Were Free", 1955, p.169)

    Commentator's note: "and so on" includes homosexuals, the incurable ill, dissenters, intellectuals, foreigners, and so on. Negroes largely were not affected simply as there were very few, or perhaps none present.


    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"

    (Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., in the August 1963 editon of the Atlantic Monthly, from a letter from the Birmingham Jail)


    "The only thing we can't tolerate is intolerance."


    Tolerating the Intolerant


    "Most of the problems a President has to face are rooted in the past."

    (Harry Truman)

    Hitler stated clearly enough what he intended to do in his book. Those concerned about Rick Warren's views should read his words and his book, and perhaps add to the discussion with specific quotes. I have no need to Warren's book. I can read the man directly. He's a bigot, and he promotes bigotry. That's all I need to know.

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