Daily Kos

The War Vote Unplugged

Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:05:46 AM PDT

Can we just stipulate that Hillary Clinton knew it was a vote for the war and she made it as a political calculation given the political climate at the time which we all remember well?

Barak Obama was not in the Senate at the time. He did speak against the war early on, but that is not the same as voting against the war in the Senate, with all the political risks that come with the job. Since he has been in the Senate he has voted to fund the war every time except this last time when he absented himself.

Now Clinton refuses to say she was "wrong" again because of a political consideration. If she said she was wrong, it would be "the story" and give the Republicans the good old flip-flopper ammunition. So, she telegraphs that she knows she was wrong with the "if I knew then what I know now" doublespeak. Its a conundrum and disingenuous, but she's damned either way.

What would young ambitious Obama do if he had had to make that vote? His record does not indicate a bold anti-war stance once in the Senate, and it is hard to imagine him standing against the war in 2002. But, we don't know. Never-the-less he is using his 2002 position despite his voting record as a distinction with Clinton. This too is disingenuous given his voting record once in the Senate. It is also potentially craven and disingenuous, assuming he might also have voted for the war (a political calculation) if he had been a Senator.

Another thing to consider is: Would Clinton have been in favor of the war if she were not in the Senate pressure cooker? I doubt it, but again we don't know.

Frankly, I don't see a whole lot of distinction between their respective positions, records or strategies.

Both of them have a pretty horrible record in bravely opposing Mr. Bush's war in the Senate where it counts. And both of them (Clinton a worse problem) have problems with explaining their voting records since they both took political calculations over ideology.

Another interesting question is what would have happened to Clinton or Obama (if he had been in the Senate) if they had opposed the war vote? In 2002 the Republicans were in full power and very vindictive. Would either of them be candidates for president now after the drubbing they would have received? Again, who knows, but that's politics.

But, neither of these two were really in favor of the war. Neither is an imperialist war monger. The big question is will either get us out and I think that either will get us out. That's what I think is important now.

Is the seminal issue in the election the daylight between Clinton's war vote record and Obama's war vote record? I don't see it. Both records are abysmal. They may have been necessary to get them where they are today, but they both lack integrity.

These are our only two choices, and each is a far sight better than the Republicans, and both will get us out of this war. That's what is important now.

[Orininally published as a comment to wmtriallawyers diary: A Question of Judgement]

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, War Vote (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 59 comments

  •  The difference is... (3+ / 0-)

    In the Obama case you're talking a total hypothetical. Always, ya he spoke out vociferously against the war, but what if...

    In the Hillary case, it's not hypothetical. We know what she did, and you put it wonderfully.

    Can we just stipulate that Hillary Clinton knew it was a vote for the war and she made it as a political calculation given the political climate at the time which we all remember well?

    Exactly. And I'll stipulate it. Right after Hillary says, "I made a mistake. I shouldn't have voted that way. I'm sorry." Haven't we had enough of a President who can never admit he was wrong?

    •  But Obama is always right. Right? (0+ / 0-)

      She's not a sociopath like Bush. The Clinton admin was war shy. That's the real substantive record. They didn't go looking for wars.

      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

      by Salo on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:11:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Did I say that! Try this. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cotterperson, TMP, darthstar

        Hillary voted to send our young men and women to fight and die in Iraq because to do otherwise was inconvenient to her political ambitions. Is that blunt enough. I'm sorry, but I've had enough of politicians who put that cheap a price on the lives of our military.

        •  Exactly. Personal ambition is more important to (0+ / 0-)

          her than doing what's right regardless of the possible consequences to one's own career.

          Obama won some serious respect from me last night when they were discussing immigration and he said, "And it's a hard political issue. Let's be honest. This is not an issue that polls well. But I think it is the right thing to do."

          If he thinks it is the right thing to do, he'll do it.  Hillary will only do so if it won't jeopardize her aspirations.

          Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by darthstar on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:17:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  And Obama voted... (0+ / 0-)

          ...to keep young men and women dying in Iraq because to do otherwise was inconvenient to her political ambitions.

          •  Errr... his (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            pascal

            Look, I am not defending Clinton's war vote record. It is not defensible. But those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Obama does not have a strong anti war record in the Senate and for him make the distinction based on his 2002 position when he was not a Senator is not convincing to me.

          •  Nice try. There's a huge difference between (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            TMP, discocarp

            voting to keep supplying the troops that Hillary sent to war, and voting to send them there in the first place. Do I wish the congress would defund the war? Sure I do. But you're comparing apples and oranges in some effort at slight of hand. Look over here. Don't pay any attention to the fact that Hillary would go to war for political gain! It's over here. Look over here!

            •  Again... (0+ / 0-)

              What I am saying is that we don't know how Obama would have voted on that war vote if he had been a Senator.

              We do know how he has voted since becoming a Senator, and it does not give confidence that he would have opposed the original war vote.

              In any case, as a Senator we do know that he has voted to fund the war everytime, except the last time when he was absent.

              •  No. What you're saying.. (0+ / 0-)

                is that despite all evidence to the contrary, you choose to believe the hypothetical that Obama would have sent men and women to die out of expediency. Personally, I find that a stretch.

                •  No, what I'm saying... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...is that from his voting record there is no evidence to the contrary.

                  •  That is just crap. (0+ / 0-)

                    This is apples and oranges. Yes, voting to keep supplying the troops is not ENDING  the war, but it's also not beginning it. It's a whole lot harder to end a war once you've started one than to not have started one in the first place.

                    You choose to assign the most devastating of charges against Obama, that he would have sent men and women to die for political expediency, even though he was speaking out against it at the time, in other words ignoring his words on the issue, and you do it by bringing up a tangentially related issue.

                    That is like hypothesizing that Obama would have murdered someone if he had been in that location, and though he spoke out against the murder, because he later came out against gun control.

                    •  I like the analogy... (0+ / 0-)

                      But for me it is more like hypothisizing that someone murdered oneone if he had been in the location, and though he spoke out against the murder, becauise he later committed three manslaughters.

                      I guess we just regard the measure of the war funding votes differently.

                      •  Yikes... (0+ / 0-)

                        ... my typing is terrible, but you get the idea.

                        BTW Thanks for taking the time to indulge this thread with your comments. I think we agree completely on the war. I might even be to the left of you (I'm to the left of most anyone I know), but I am more of a cynic. I distrust all these politicians. By the nature of the game you start off with true ideals and quickly realize that in order to get ahead you need to cave in. The road is littered with the ones that don't.

                        What I really think is that the decision comes down to a cold practical one. Obama has has the media wind at his back because they despise Clinton. He has not been tested with an opposition main stream media, maybe ever. It is easy to look wonderful when you are being adored, but I worry what happens when the main stream media juggernaught takes aim and fires.

                        Clinton has been taking incoming fire all her political life. Obama will need to learn on the job in the very few months between when he becomes the prospective nominee and November.

                        It seems like a big risk.

      •  One million dead Iraqis (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cotterperson

        because of the aumf.

        •  because of bullets... (0+ / 0-)

          and bombs.

          "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

          by Salo on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:18:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Because they're THERE. And we're THERE. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            discocarp

            And if we weren't there, Saddam Hussein would still be alive and still be an asshole, and we'd still be talking smack about him, and 4,000 Americans would still be alive, and military suicides would NOT be skyrocketing, and OIL would be around 45 bucks a barrel.

            Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

            by darthstar on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:22:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  And since in the Senate he voted... (0+ / 0-)

      ...for the war everytime.

      Except this last time when he chose to be absent.

      Look I was super excited by Obama's rhetoric and thrilled when he got into the Senate and crushed when did not oppose the war funding with his votes.

      For me quite honestly the recent ABSENT vote was even more telling.

      I just don't think you can draw a big distinction here based on their respective records when it counted.

  •  You can look at how the Clinton machine governed (0+ / 0-)

    in the 1990s. They were war shy.  PNAC lobbied them to invade Iraq and they were blown off.

    "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

    by Salo on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:09:36 AM PDT

    •  excuse me? (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      decon, cotterperson, Salo, discocarp

      Bill Clinton bombed Iraq the entire time he was in office.

      Then there's Bosnia and Kosovo. . .

      They were not war shy, I've an ex-brother in law who fell out of a helicopter over Somalia and broke his back to prove it.

      They just didn't call it war.

      "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

      by zic on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:17:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The war vote (0+ / 0-)

      If Obama was in the senate he would have voted against the AUMF just like his fellow Illinois senator Dick Durbin.

      Most midwest senators voted against the AUMF
      Wellstone M
      Dayton M
      Feingold W
      kOHL W
      Harkin IA
      Levin MI
      sTABENOW mi

      Total voting against the resolution 23
      Includes Kennedy MA and Graham FL chairman of the Intelligence committee who pushed and received the NIE report

      •  and the war would have happened anyway. (0+ / 0-)

        "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

        by Salo on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:22:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  right... but (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Catte Nappe

          Obama would have maintained his stance.

          And you guys are comparing apples and oranges here. I'm sorry he voted for funding the war, but you kind of have to if you're already over there. You're right though, neither of them took a stance on getting a timeline in place for removing the troops, but if that's the case, most of our senators are guilty. Because Hillary and Obama voted for funding is not the issue. The issue is, instead of making the necessary EXECUTIVE judgement in the beginning, and using your clout as an former First Lady to get more support, she voted for the war. If she has so much experience and tenor in politics, shouldn't she have argued against the bill and tried to convert her colleagues?

          "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

          by Thomas McMillan on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:28:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That is certainly a big issue with me. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Salo

            But, I have been railing against the war and those who voted for it and those who vote to continue funding it, and those who don't vote to impose timetables. I don't think that a Senator who has consistently voted for the war has the right to draw a distinction with another who has consistently voted for the war.

            •  My issue is (0+ / 0-)

              we have a Senator who did not vote for the war (voted for funding it) and a senator who went against her party's ideals and sound judgement and voted for the war. I have an issue with war in general, and don't think that war is a solution to our problems. Having said that, I cannot vote for someone who demonstrates poor judgement on executive decisions and fails to give a sound reason as to why she voted that way, especially when she campaigns on experience. If she has experience, doesn't one assume that she would make better decisions? Saying that the administration "lied" to her is not a reasonable excuse because we all know that war is the last option, and should not be made available without proper intelligence and sound judgement. If the intelligence isn't there, you don't vote for the last resort... you tie the hands of the administration and wait for the proper intelligence. We're talking about Iraq here... they aren't a nuclear threat, and they aren't a threat to our borders.

              "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

              by Thomas McMillan on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:48:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  no no (0+ / 0-)

            She was a minor figure in the early 2000s. She also saw the Republicans act like deranged jackasses during Kosovo and did not want to act the way they acted in undermining a successful Kosovo operation.

            "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

            by Salo on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:52:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  So in the Senate she voted for PNAC (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      zic, discocarp

      with the AUMF. She knew exactly who they were and what they wanted, and she voted their way. Use American life and other treasure to remake the Middle East. She continued with her Kyl-Lieberman vote.

      No excuses. She's aligned with the neocons, however she dissembles.

      "This chamber reeks of blood." -- Sen George McGovern, 1970

      by cotterperson on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:24:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Obama's going to (0+ / 0-)

        deploy troops in Pakistan against the Pathans. Count on it. He'll keep troops in Iraq as well.

        "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

        by Salo on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:26:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  that's a bold (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          cotterperson

          assumption without any factual basis.

          "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

          by Thomas McMillan on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:30:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  two bits of evidence (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            MediaFreeze

            IN the Last Debate when Edwards was present, Edwards said everything out and redeployed to Kuwait. Obama cross examined him and suggested there was no difference between a QRF in Kuwait and one still based in Iraq.

            Obama is always the first to mention Pakistan in debates.  Quite a few of his supporters on here have already argued with me suggesting that a larger deployment there has strong merits.  His comments strike me as gung ho as they relate to Waizirstan and the Pathans.

            "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

            by Salo on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:46:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  duhhhhhh, Obama sees, as do many others (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              cotterperson, Thomas McMillan

              that the instability in Pakistan is more of a problem then Saddam ever was.

              You do seem to have a funny agenda going on here, with all your inklings of "hidden sources."

              So I really have to wonder if you're on the Clinton payroll, paid to plant shit on blogs.

              "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

              by zic on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:35:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  again... (0+ / 0-)

              Obama only highlighted the contrast between US enemies residing in Pakistan, and our involvement in a "dumb" war in Iraq that has taken our focus off of the real mastermind behind 9/11.

              We will not go to war with Pakistan.

              "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

              by Thomas McMillan on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:52:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Bush is the one sending troops to Pakistan. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          zic

          WASHINGTON - The commander of U.S. forces in Central Asia has launched planning for more extensive use of U.S. troops to train Pakistani armed forces, a senior defense official said Wednesday.

          Adm. William J. Fallon, commander of U.S. Central Command, issued a planning order, an internal instruction to lower-level commanders, to propose ideas for a long-term approach to helping Pakistan combat what has become an expanding, homegrown insurgency that threatens the stability of the government.

          http://news.yahoo.com/...

          "This chamber reeks of blood." -- Sen George McGovern, 1970

          by cotterperson on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:31:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Your being wrong about Pakistan (0+ / 0-)

          does not mean Hillary isn't aligned with the neocons. That's just a fact.

          "This chamber reeks of blood." -- Sen George McGovern, 1970

          by cotterperson on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:32:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  When Bush was elected in 2000 (0+ / 0-)

            I widely discussed how he was unfit to be a CinC and that he was likely to perfomr badly in a war situation.

            I was derided then--even by Democrats.

            I can wait to be vindictaed on this issue--I have my own sources. I've got time.

            "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

            by Salo on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:42:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  it's the stale DLC vision v. grassroots hope. (0+ / 0-)

    Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

    by jj24 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:16:25 AM PDT

  •  ask feingold or byrd "what would have happened" (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    darthstar

    had they voted "no".

    please.

    Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

    by jj24 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:17:08 AM PDT

    •  Good point... (0+ / 0-)

      ...Feingold was marginalized and tagged with a lefty label and Obama was annointed the next great compromiser.

      •  the "great compromisers" were the yes votes. (0+ / 0-)

        Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

        by jj24 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:44:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  On both... (0+ / 0-)

          ...war funding or just the war authorization?

          •  HRC will NEVER get my vote due to her (0+ / 0-)

            iraq war authorization.  without that, your lame 2nd-best grasping at straws wouldn't be a question.

            btw, as far as your "tagging" argument, the only people afraid of being "tagged" as left is the right.  the only people who urge us to hide our liberal values are those who wish to move the left rightward.

            as far as labels, HRC's iraq war selling (pls see her speech for details) earned her the label "neocon-lite."  only in this intance, her affiliation to the DLC and her support of what it stands for, and the fact it was given to her by those from her own party, this label actually means something.  

            Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

            by jj24 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:24:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  We deal with the reality not the imaginary... (0+ / 0-)

    The bottom line is that Hillary voted for it and Obama didnt. As he so rightly brought up at last nights debate... he is the only candidate that can say he has always been against it. She triangulated herself into a corner and now there is little difference between her war footing and the republicans.

  •  What if... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wmtriallawyer

    Bill and Hillary Clinton had aggressively opposed the Iraq resolution? I don't know if it would have stopped the war, but I do know that she would have wrapped up the nomination a long time ago if they had. Her and Bill had the ability to make a difference on a life and death matter. But they took the path of least risk.

    This is why I support Obama. The more you are willing to risk, the more you can gain. Obama is willing to risk more than Hillary to accomplish our progressive goals. There is a higher risk of nominating Obama, but the ceiling of we could accomplish is much higher than what we could accomplish with Hillary.

  •  Ambition (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Thomas McMillan

    In 2002, Obama didn't just say to a few friends "hey, I think this war is a bad idea".  He stood up in front of an anti-war rally, and gave a speech saying he was against the war, and specifically detailing what would likely result.  He was frighteningly correct.

    Although he wasn't in the US senate at the time, he WAS already considering a race for the US senate.  He was living in the same US that the rest of us were, and he knew what W's approval rating was.

    He had as much reason to engage in CYA as did Clinton.

    But he didn't.

    Never get the mothers too angry.

    by pvlb on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:31:38 AM PDT

  •  The fact is... (0+ / 0-)

    and I really don't care who you support. Voting in favor of the war borderlines on "gross negligence" and highlights the poor judgement and lack of experience on issues of foreign policy. period.

    How can you run a campaign on experience and "Solutions for America," when you cannot distinguish between the truth and lies of your fellow politicians. This is the contrast being made. While many have come out and stated that it was bad judgement and apologized to the American people, Hillary refuses to. This is a huge concern, and should not be overlooked when you head to the polls.

    I'm not attempting to sway your vote, but I would like you to consider the implications before you do. If it isn't a big issue for you, so be it.

    "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

    by Thomas McMillan on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:58:03 AM PDT

    •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

      I hope you are trying to sway my vote, and I very much appreciate the discussion.

      I abhor the war and I have despised and derided Hillary Clinton and all the other quissling Democrats who voted for the war for many years on this blog.

      Now we have two candidates one who voted for the war and one who I think would have if he had been in the Senate. Of course this is only my opinion, beacause we can't know.

      The opinion is informed by the fact that he did not run for the Senate as an anti-war candidate and his record once elected.

      Of course I could be wrong.

      Your calculus is that an unknown trumps a known negative. It does not. It only trumps an unknown negative if the unknown turns out to be a positive. If the unknown is a negative too... it washes.

      So we go to the probability that it is a negative which I believe to be very high.

      This is the logic upon which I reject Obama's anti-war credentials.

      All I am saying here is that they are both no good on their war record.

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